Seagate HDD Difference help

So my current 1TB game/data drive filled up quicker then I though, damn you steam sales, so Im looking at a 3 or 4 TB one to add to my rig.

On Amazon there are a couple well priced Seagates, one is the ST4000DM005 and the other is ST4000DM004. What is the difference? I see there is a 256 Cache on one and a 64 on the other and one is slight faster, but not sure other difference. Also which one is a better choice for a game drive? Or is there another one that would be better.
 

CaptainCretin

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Save heartache and buy a Hitachi; they are proven to be about 100 times more reliable than a Seagate.

Failing that, buy a Toshiba, most of them are Hitachi inside; and even the ones that arent, are about 25 times more reliable than a Seagate.
 
Most people get their HDD reliability numbers from Backblaze's reports.

https://www.backblaze.com/blog/hard-drive-stats-for-q1-2018/

Unfortunately, they badly misinterpret them, trying to come up with "Company x drives suck" and "Company y drives are great" rule of thumb. You really need to look at their stats by drive model. Seagate has been plagued by 2-3 really unreliable HDD models which Backblaze bought a lot of because of their low price point. Across all drive models, Seagate is actually more reliable than WD.Hitachi is still most reliable, though they've got a few bad models as well. But each company produces very reliable models and poor reliability models. So if you use a "Company x" rule of thumb, you can still end up being burned.

The ST4000DM004/5 models are not in Backblaze's statistics, so you can't draw any conclusions about them from the Backblaze report. I wouldn't really worry about it. Backblaze uses these drives under heavy load 24/7. So even the 5%+ failure per year rate they're getting on the worst drives means there's probably a 95% chance the drive will work flawlessly for a home user for a decade or more. Just make sure you keep good backups. You can of course opt for a more reliable model if you wish (though they usually cost more - I'd rather put the extra money into a better backup solution).

Looking at Seagate's spec sheets, it looks like the ST4000DM005 has an areal density (how much data is written per square inch) of 811 Gb/inch^2 while the ST4000DM004 is 1203 Gb/inch^2. So the ST4000DM005 uses 50% more platters to reach 4 TB. More platters generally means (marginally) more noise and heat, and slower performance (fewer bits pass under the read/write head each platter rotation.

https://www.seagate.com/www-content/product-content/barracuda-fam/barracuda-new/en-us/docs/100805918d.pdf
https://www.seagate.com/www-content/product-content/barracuda-fam/barracuda-new/en-us/docs/100804656b.pdf

You can pretty much ignore cache. Benchmarks done long ago showed very little performance improvement past about 16-32 MB of cache. The only reason we've gone to 64 MB and now 256 MB of cache is because that's the cheapest DRAM chip you can buy. The smaller DRAM chips either aren't produced anymore, or are produced in such small quantities that it's actually more expensive.
 

CaptainCretin

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Solandri has already posted the link, however it is to this years results page; go here https://www.backblaze.com/b2/hard-drive-test-data.html to get data on smaller capacity drives that most users are going to be looking at buying ($600 per HDD is a bit much to spend on the average family PC, even a gaming PC). If you want to find your 1 or 2TB drive, you will have to go back a few years to when it was new to the market.

If you look at the 2017 figures, a number Seagate drives that were prevalent on the market had poor reliability.

Actually, these results pages werent where I got my figures from (not quite); these are only the highlights from each quarter; while suffering from insomnia a few months ago, I came across an analysis of all the blaze data from 2013-2018, breaking down drive failure rates by brand and drive capacity.

Even if you ignore the 29% failure rate of one Seagate drive type, the majority of drives with a higher than average failure rate were Seagate.

OK, that is the reference material, here is my personal experience over 20-odd years of PC building; EVERY Seagate drive I have had the misfortune to own had developed faults and died, often barely outside the warranty period; and the one that failed within the warranty period, Seagate didnt honour the warranty.

In that same time period I have had ONE WD, ONE Toshiba and ONE Hitachi drive fail, and the Hitachi had mitigating circumstances (my sister lost her temper and kicked the shit out of the PC case).

Hitachi replaced the dive with no fuss, and both the others were 8-10 years old at the time of failure.

This is since 1995 and across the 10-12 PCs I used to maintain for the family and family business.

HDDs were passed down from PC to PC as the main boxes were replaced or upgraded, until the drives were so small a capacity, it wasnt worth keeping them any longer. I have thrown away dozens of drives from 750MB to 320GB over the years, as it was just not worth keeping them any longer, but all passed SMART.
 

Kudos to you for at least trying to understand the statistics. Unfortunately, this is something easily messed up by people not well versed in statistics. The actual table you need to look at is the second one in this link.

https://www.backblaze.com/blog/hard-drive-stats-for-2017/

That gives you the annualized failure rate, and the high and low confidence interval. Have you ever seen a poll in a newspaper which says that 60% of people were in favor of something, +/-5%? The confidence interval is that +/- 5%. It means that if the statistics are such that if they ran the poll 100 times, then 95% of the time their result would have been between 55% and 65%. (I'm simplifying a bit, but this is the easiest way to think of it).

The Seagate drive with the 29% failure rate has a confidence interval ranging from 0% to 120%. That is, Backblaze experienced a 29% failure rate, but they ran that model for so little time that statistically they can't tell if the drives really are that unreliable, or if they just got unlucky. If they ran their year of operations again 100 times using the same number of that drive model, they might get a 0% failure rate, they might get a 100% failure rate. Which is just another way of saying "We don't know what the failure rate for this drive is."

Statistical certainty (shrinking the confidence interval) comes from having a large sample size. And they only had 1255 operating days with this drive model (which is one of the models OP was considering) - by far the smallest number of any drives - and experienced a single failure. That number is too small to draw any reliable conclusions about the model's failure rate. So you can basically ignore the 29% failure rate for that model. It might be right, it might not. Backblaze simply doesn't have enough data to draw any conclusions about that model either way. By all rights they shouldn't even have included it in the table.

Looking over the rest of the drives on that table, the next-worst performer is another Seagate model, but this time with a large enough sample that you know that there's a 95% chance that its failure rate is at least 10.6%. This is followed by two WD models with failure rates of at least 4.5% and 3.9%, before you get to the next Seagate model with a 2.9%-3.1% failure rate.

If you look at the high end of the confidence interval, you find one Seagate model which might be as bad as 21.5%. This is followed by two WD models which might be as bad as 5.9%, then another WD model which might be as bad as 5.8%, a Toshiba model which might be as bad as 5.7%, and a HGST model which might be as bad as 4.5%, before you get to the next Seagate model which might be as bad as 3.4%.

If you're trying to interpret their data to form a "avoid/buy company x" rule, their 2017 report is really damning for WD. All three WD drives they used in 2017 had an unusually high failure rates; two of them with statistical certainty. In contrast, 4 of Seagate's models had low failure rates, 2 slightly high failure rates, 1 very high failure rate, and 1 there wasn't enough data to draw a conclusion. So if you were picking a brand (which I don't suggest you do) based on their 2017 report, then WD would be the worst choice. The majority of the drives with high failure rates were Seagates simply because Backblaze uses more Seagate drives than any other brand, not because Seagate is less reliable.

And my personal experience with drives have been two WD failures, one Seagate failure, one Samsung failure, one Toshiba failure, one IBM (which became HGST) failure, one Conner failure, one Fujitsu failure. Ironically, I have one Maxtor drive which I've been trying to kill for over a decade. Maxtor (before it was acquired by Seagate) was considered a low-quality discount brand. I bought a 300 GB Maxtor because of a killer sale price. It became the drive I tossed into my bag when I went to visit a client where I might need an extra HDD to copy data onto. It's been on dozens of car drives, jostled around in my bag (I took no precautions to protect it since I fully expected it to die), temporarily installed at 3 clients' computers for an extended period, I've even dropped it onto carpet a couple times. This so-called low-quality drive just doesn't want to die.

Which brings me to my point. Unless you're running drives for a cumulative hundreds of thousands or millions of days like Backblaze is, your personal experience with drives is statistically meaningless. An individual simply doesn't accrue enough operating time with drives to generate statistically reliable conclusions. The drive you got might've been bad, or you might've gotten unlucky. The only statistically reliable stats I've seen on HDD failure rates are Backblaze's reports, and the now-defunct Storage Review HDD reliability database.
 


Hello richiestang_78, the ST4000DM005 and the ST4000DM004 are both equally suited for game storage. Both drives will have slight differences buy both will do what you need them to do. Let us know if we can answer any questions; we're here to help.
 

CaptainCretin

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Yeah, I think I still have a Maxtor drive knocking around in a bash computer I gave to my 3 y/o niece; 20GB if I remember correctly, another brand I never had a failure with.

Obviously I never got anywhere near the hours Blaze does, but running 10-12 PCs, several of which took substantial abuse from various age children (including my then 38 y/o sister), and 1 that was almost never switched off for 15 straight years (boss ALWAYS left it in standby); I have racked up a lot of hours on HDDs, the newest drive in my current system has clocked over 14,000 hours, and a number of drives in other systems are 10+ years old and still going strong.
 

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