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DbDBlackJack

DbDBlackJack

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So lets say I have a >12 cubic inch box that I ran tubing from.the cpu into. Inside this box would be a clc refrigerant system: pump, rad, fan, and condensation trap(for the bit of the hose inside the box). Perhaps a radiator sandwich with a fan in between 2 rads (1 for the refrigerant side and 1 for the cpu side).

The idea is warm water from the cpu block enters via hose into the normal radiator, the fan blows cool air from the refrigerant radiator to the cpu rad, then the water is discharged back to the cpu. Condensation would be kept separate from the main case.

There would be a little more to it. I think LN2 is somewhat similar?

Please expand on this.

If this had been tried, links are appreciated.

Thanks!

Edit: grammar
 
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I've been reading about the craziness for a long time: any time they go sub-ambient they always have to deal with the problem of condensation at some point.

If you want to do something extreme and with total disregard to expense, "because we can", try building an immersed PC. The entire system is immersed in a tank of an appropriate circulating fluid. The fluid would, of course, be chilled through a cooling system, something as you suggest. The whole thing would be enclosed in a tank so moisture condensing on the tank wouldn't affect...
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drea.drechsler

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The goal of this is to deliver sub-ambient liquid to the CPU water block (else why do it) so that means warm(er), moist ambient air will condense out it's moisture onto the water block and hoses leading to it. You have to account for that inevitable condensation (unless you live in high-dry desert area) on those parts because it will migrate to the motherboard and into/under the CPU socket.
 
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DbDBlackJack

DbDBlackJack

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So if the liquid traveling to the cpu is sub ambient, it will cause the block or hose to gather condensation? I see how.

If ambient is say 25 c and you send 23 c liquid, how would it condensate? If you have educational links on that I would like to read them.

To me, it seems no different than lowering ambient via central ac.
 
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drea.drechsler

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If you want a technical answer to that question there are several excellent Wikipedia articles on dew point and psychometry. There are a lot of factors in play, and I've never fully understood it... all I know is at the right confluence of humidity and atmospheric pressure moisture will condense out even at a 2 degree C difference (it's condensing on my house windows right now with outdoors at 76F and indoors at 75F but very high humidity and atmosp. pressure making dew point just right), although you may be able to control it with a fan blowing warm air off the VRM's or something onto it. I'd suggest you get a psychometric chart for your region and you'll be able to see conditions where it's likely to happen.

But then... oh, silly me. I Thought the idea of engaging the complexity and expense of an external phase-change cooler is to get really cold liquid, sub-zero when using the proper liquid, on top of the CPU to enable a superior overclock. So If you're going to send liquid that's only 2 degree C cooler than ambient it hardly seems worth the effort to me.

Since you're operating at near-ambient you can't be looking for crazy overclocks so why not just put a better radiator solution in place and call it a day? I have to think an all copper 360 rad (two, if you wanna go crazy) would be able to provide near-ambient liquid back to any CPU under any conditions and you avoid that cost, complexity and craziness of an external phase change system.

EDIT: since you asked, here's a good wikipedia start point. Just use the reference links at the bottom to dig even deeper.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychrometrics
 
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DbDBlackJack

DbDBlackJack

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This is just hypothetical. I want to get as cold a liquid to thr cpu block as possible without getting condensation. Regardless of expense or complexity.

In other words, cause we can? Lol

 
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drea.drechsler

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I've been reading about the craziness for a long time: any time they go sub-ambient they always have to deal with the problem of condensation at some point.

If you want to do something extreme and with total disregard to expense, "because we can", try building an immersed PC. The entire system is immersed in a tank of an appropriate circulating fluid. The fluid would, of course, be chilled through a cooling system, something as you suggest. The whole thing would be enclosed in a tank so moisture condensing on the tank wouldn't affect what's inside it. The fluid would have to have good dielectric properties, be safe for electronics and plastics and as well remain pumpable at low temperature. Something like a Flourinert maybe? dunno.

In my idea, the chilled fluid would be pumped from the chiller into the CPU and GPU 'water' blocks then released from then straight into the tank, probably right on top of the VRM. The pickup return, probably at top of tank, would circulate it through a filter and then back to a heat exchanger inside the chiller to be brought back to the lowest pumpable temp of the fluid. Quite the engineering challenge to figure out all the details, a great project.

Have fun. Immersed PC projects are fun to watch... there's a few youtubes about them. I'm just not sure I've ever seen any of them that tried to do it sub-ambient, so if you're up for it there's possibly a void for your project to fill!
 
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DbDBlackJack

DbDBlackJack

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Ahh, now I understand. It doesn't matter what the ambient is; if you go cooler than that then you will condensate(I'm sure there's other factors but for the most part), and that condensation would get all over the hose returning to the cpu. Thank you so much!

So you would need to ensure the liquid doesn't get that cold. Hmm, I'll do some homework. Thanks again!
 
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drea.drechsler

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And on the cpu 'water block'..and will in turn drip down onto the socket and between the pins of the socket and the motherboard and then corrosion will set in and molds grow. If it's even operating with the moisture there.

Just remember this too: if you're just feeding ambient (or nearly ambient) temperature cooling fluid to the water block there are ample means to do it with out power hungry phase change system.

If you really want to go phase change: watch this vid. He's always interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d0B0Dli-1g
 
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genz

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Let's be clear here. Water cooling is not cooling. It's temperature transfer. Water is an insulator so it just moves the stuff, like a container of heat. Pull the fan out of your CLC and you just have a big useless heatsink. The water won't take 20 mins to get hotter than ambient, and then it's actually warming your CPU.

LN2 is phase change cooling. The cooling actually comes from the LN2 evaporating. As a result, it rapidly warms the ambient air around it virtually guaranteeing water condensation. As you can see, colder than air transfers with such extremes just isn't possible without condensation unless you're piping off the expanding N2 through something that will be insulated enough to stay at ambient temps on the surface of the other side. You need fat, double-walled pipes with another fluid to absorb the extremes of temp in between ideally.

You would be better off starting from solids if you're just looking for the most cooling possible. People don't understand but water kits were always better because of the direct application aspect (you could buy blocks for VRMs, chipsets and even RAM) and the raw heat capacity, not the cooling done. The best coolers in the world today are all still air coolers (out of Air only vs CLC competition).
 
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USAFRet

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To what end? A lower reported temperature, for bragging rights? Or a momentary high GHz, to capture a screenshot of that number?

Generally, going into an endeavor like this is to increase performance. Not just reduce the CPU temp.

Up to a certain level, a CPU will run the same. Reducing the core temp, under load, from 65C to 50C gains exactly zero performance benefit.
The CPU was running just fine at 65C.

If, for whatever reason, your CPU is at the upper edge of the temp curve and actually throttling...then maybe something like this would be a good hobby.
But that is highly unlikely.
 
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DbDBlackJack

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Just to clarify how the system would work: 2 radiators, 1 fan. The first radiator would have refrigerant inside, the second would be your a-typical aio(both 120mm to make it easy). The fan would be sandwiched between the two. This is to get sub ambient air pushed through the aio. I'm not so sure the liquid inside the aio would reach sub ambient or even near it. However, with the first radiator, I assumed you would be able to adjust how cool the air is going through the fan.

To what end, you ask. First, it's just hypothetical. I just want to see if a system like this would work. Second, if you can go from 65c under load(not a prime95 load but a regular playing games load) to 27c or 30c, I think you would see better than marginal gains. IE: higher clocks, without going LN2. Third, I'm trying to cheat the condensation issue by keeping the unit outside of the pc case. If you can keep the sub ambient temperature inside the cooler case, then you can make a reservoir/drain system for any water that collects in that case. As long as the hose returning to the pc case doesn't get that cool.

Now, if you can package this unit in a box that's half the size of a shoebox and all you would need is extended hoses for your aio connected to your case, I'm sure it would be marketable. Actually, it wouldn't be an aio but would come with it's own pump and use G14 threads so you can put it on a ek or swiftech block or whatever.

Drea I will check out that link now. Thank you!

Thanks everyone else for responding and giving ideas and information. I appreciate that!

Edit: Grammar
 
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USAFRet

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The temperature of the radiator does not count.
You must move that sub-ambient material past the CPU, and cool the actual CPU.
And thence comes the condensation.

Thermodynamics: You can't win, you can't even break even, you can't cheat, and you can't quit the game.

Overclocking limit is not only the temp, but also the actual CPU. Just because you've applied LN2, inside a walk in freezer, outside in Antarctica....does not mean this particular CPU will achieve some magical GHz number.

Finally...the CPU performance between 65C and 30C is exactly zero.
 
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