2 Drives in RAID 0 in RAID 0 with 3rd Drive?

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JollyGreen

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So I have 2 SSDs of 120GB, and an NVME of 256GB. I was wondering if it's possible to put the 2 drives in RAID 0 with each other, and then put that in RAID 0 with the 256GB NVME drive, since putting all three in RAID 0 with eachother would make half of the NVME unusable as I understand (correct me if I'm wrong). I also have 2x2TB HDD's, and was wondering if it's possible to both stripe and mirror them? As in can I have them mirrors of each other for backup but also have them striped to increase speed? As I understand RAID 10 and RAID 01 both require a minimum of 4 drives (again correct me if I'm wrong). Sorry, I'm quite the noob when it comes to RAID configurations. Also, would the windows software RAID or the RAID controller that came with my motherboard be better (ASRock Z370 Pro4)? I understand that the windows RAID is independent of hardware, so switching motherboards wouldn't mess things up, but other than that are there any advantages and disadvantages? Thanks in advance for any help.
 
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popatim

popatim

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While yes it is possible on several raid cards, why slow down your NVME drive to that of your ssd's?
You'd be better off raid 0 on the SSD's and using it for either your boot drive or for your data drive. Just keep in mind that if either drive has an issue you very well might lose all the data on both drives. If either drive dies then it is definitely gone. That's the nature of raid 0 sadly.

needless to say that backups of important data should be kept regardless of any type of drive setup. They can fail at anytime and without warning; taking all your files with them. Raid0 just gives you multiple chances at losing it all.
 
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USAFRet

USAFRet

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So I have 2 SSDs of 120GB, and an NVME of 256GB. I was wondering if it's possible to put the 2 drives in RAID 0
Click to expand...

For multiple reasons, that is a really bad idea.

(120 SSD+120 SSD) + 256 NVMe = slowing the NVMe to the speed of the regular SSD's.

RAID 0 + NVMe drives? It can actually be slower than individual drives.


You are taking this collection of drives and making things both far too complex, fail prone, and slower than it should be.

2x2TB HDD's, and was wondering if it's possible to both stripe and mirror them
Click to expand...
To what purpose? What do you hope to achieve with that?

Sorry, I'm quite the noob when it comes to RAID configurations.
Click to expand...
Indeed.
Don't do this.
 
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popatim

popatim

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As for the mirroring of the two HDD's and to expand on USAFRet's post, all you accomplish is redundancy; that is the data is still available if either drive goes down. Since things will happen to both drives at the same time, mirroring the drives offers you no protections from Viruses, accidental & intentional deletions, electrical surges that take out your whole pc... You are far better off putting one into an external enclosure and using it for that backup drive that was mentioned.

See USAFRet's sig pic for clarification. It happens often.
 
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JollyGreen

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Well, the main reason for doing it is because my assassin's creed games will only run when stored on the drive windows is installed on for some reason, and this would allow me to not have to continually swap the games. On top of that, since it's mostly storing just games and the OS, the important stuff would be stored on the HDDs so losing the data wouldn't be a big deal. Also, if what I was asking about is possible then the 2 SSDs in RAID 0, which are rated at about 500MBps read and write, should see a best case performance of about 1,000MBps, and that in RAID 0 with my NVME drive with about 1,100MBps read and write should see a performance of about 2,000MBps, which would be higher than the NVME drive's current state. You make a good point about the 2 HDDs though, however I don't exactly trust myself to have the discipline to do backups on a regular basis which mirroring would protect me from. "To what purpose? What do you hope to achieve with that?" The purpose would be to achieve a backup from drive failure and simultaneous performance increase as you get from RAID 10.
 
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USAFRet

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With SSD's, RAID 0 performance does not stack like that.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/ssd-raid-benchmark,3485.html

Even if it did (and it does not):
With the 2x SSD in RAID 0, and then that RAIDed to the NVMe...it drags the NVMe down to the performance of the SSD.
You get the speed of the slowest.

So overall, your RAID 0 array would perform at about the speed of a single SATA III SSD.
And of course, add all the complications and fail modes of a RAID 0.


For the theoretical RAID 1 on the HDD's...all you gain is protection against physical hardware fail. You gain nothing against the far more common forms of data loss. Malware, accidental deletion, file corruption, etc, etc.
RAID 1 does nothing for that.

Again...this is a very complex setup, that reduces your overall performance.
 
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JollyGreen

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"With SSD's, RAID 0 performance does not stack like that." Not quite sure how you came to that conclusion. "In fact, the two striped 256 GB drives provide about twice the performance of the single drives....single drives max out at a little more than half of those numbers." "You get the speed of the slowest." Which is what I based my numbers off of. Again, 2x500MBps stacks to 1000MBps, stacked with 1x1,100MBps would give you 2,000MBps (as 1,000MBps is the slowest). Not that any of this even matters, as I've already stated I'm not doing this for performance and reliability is a non-issue. So I'd appreciate it if you could stop trying to turn this into a RAID bashing and actually get back to the question I asked. "You gain nothing against the far more common forms of data loss. Malware, accidental deletion, file corruption, etc, etc." Maybe statistically, but I've never once lost data in one of those forms in my entire life. On the other hand, I have had a number of drives fail on me. That combined with the fact that I'm not inclined to waste the time and effort needed to regularly backup to an external drive to ultimately ignore the mode of failure that's most commonly plagued me in order to protect against modes of failure I've never encountered while simultaneously sacrificing the improved performance leads me to the solution I've chosen. So again, I'm not asking what you think is the best approach for your use case, I'm asking if what I want to do is possible.
 
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USAFRet

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In some rare use cases, yes. A RAID 0 with SSD's does provide a performance benefit.
However...
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https://img.purch.com/ssd-raid-benchmark/o/aHR0cDovL21lZGlhLmJlc3RvZm1pY3JvLmNvbS9FL04vMzg0MTQzL29yaWdpbmFsL3JlYWx3b3JsZF9XaW44X3N0YXJ0dXBfdGltZS5wbmc=

https://img.purch.com/ssd-raid-benchmark/o/aHR0cDovL21lZGlhLmJlc3RvZm1pY3JvLmNvbS9FL08vMzg0MTQ0L29yaWdpbmFsL3JlYWx3b3JsZF9XaW44X3N0YXJ0dXBfdGltZV9wZXJjZW50LnBuZw==


Can you do it, with the SSD config you've laid out? Probably.
Except for the stripe and mirror of the 2x HDD. That won't work.

Once you get this up and running, please share your actual performance gains.
If it provides an actual benefit, I might try something similar. I have the drives to do it with.
 
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JollyGreen

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"Once you get this up and running, please share your actual performance gains. If it provides an actual benefit, I might try something similar." You've already posted benchmarks showing performance essentially doubling for sequential read/writes and random read/writes with high queue depth (proving they do stack) and essentially equivalent random read/writes with low queue depth with 6 to 8 thousandths of a millisecond slower access time and essentially double the speed for file copies, so I'm not sure what more information my benchmarks could possibly provide. So the equivalent of a RAID 10 or 01 setup for 2 drives isn't possible? That's a bummer. Hopefully someone can confirm the dual RAID 0 setup is possible, as there's no way I'm going through all that time and effort of modifying my setup to such a degree for something that could end up not working.
 
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USAFRet

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Benchmark numbers are one thing, user facing performance can be quite different.

RAID 01 or 10 with 2 drives?
If you were to partition the two drives each in half, you could, in theory, probably do it.

Drive 1 - Partition A and Partition X. 1TB each
Drive 2 - Partition B and Partition Y, 1TB each
In essence, "4 drives".

RAID 0 = Partition A & B.
RAID 0 = Partition X & Y

Raid 1 (mirror) of the two RAID 0's. 2TB total drive space.
Not sure what that would gain you, but you could try.
 
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RealBeast

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No, you misread those benchmarks -- compare the various red (read performance) and black (write performance) to the others of the *same* color -- do not compare red to black (that would be a read to write comparison that means nothing).

The benchmarks show little performance difference between any of the various arrangements. Real life will show the same -- no advantage.

 
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JollyGreen

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"No, you misread those benchmarks...The benchmarks show little performance difference between any of the various arrangements. Real life will show the same -- no advantage." Nope, definitely read them correctly. Their summary of the results even agrees with what I said. "Twin 256 GB 840 Pros nearly hit 1 GB/s in both disciplines...single drives max out at a little more than half of those numbers." "As expected, the RAID 0-based setups, consisting of two 128 GB and two 256 GB SSDs, solidly beat the single-drive configurations in our sequential read and write test. In fact, the two striped 256 GB drives provide about twice the performance of the single drives." You might want to look at those benchmarks again, as it seems you're the one who misread them. Maybe read their conclusions before you contradict them next time as well. "Benchmark numbers are one thing, user facing performance can be quite different." I believe they summarized the results best; "For enthusiasts, the truth often lies somewhere in between." As is usually the case, the results depend on a person's use case. If you're looking to boot the OS or load games as fast as possible you'd be very slightly better off without RAID. But if you're looking to edit videos or transfer large files you'd be much better off with RAID. "Not sure what that would gain you, but you could try." Again, what you would gain is a backup that protects against disk failure (which is my primary goal) as well as a performance increase (seeing as how my data drives consist mostly of high quality and high resolution video files). If you're going to mirror the drive like I am instead of having just one big drive, you might as well stripe it as well and get the performance boost at the same time. "If you were to partition the two drives each in half, you could, in theory, probably do it." Yes, theoretically it works, the question is whether or not it's actually possible in real life.
 
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USAFRet

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If you have the 2x HDD, try it. See what happens.
All you may lose is some time.

And for the SSD RAID 0? Again, try it. See what happens.
Users use files and applications. Not benchmarks.
 
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JollyGreen

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The entire reason I came here was to avoid the massive waste of time that would be involved in shuffling all my data around and setting this up in the event that it doesn't end up working. "Users use files and applications. Not benchmarks." I'm aware of that, but that doesn't mean benchmarks don't tell us what happens for the different ways that people use those files and applications. For instance, the benchmarks you cited tell us that RAID performs substantially faster when people use their drives for accessing large files such as high quality video files or for transfers, and that it performs nearly imperceptibly worse for accessing smaller files. But I'm not looking for benchmarks anyways, I was already aware of their conclusions before I came here. I'm trying to find out if a specific type of configuration is possible. But for some strange reason everyone wanted to avoid answering my questions and derail the thread into a debate over performance that didn't even take my particular use case into account.
 
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