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Xbox 360 Piracy Continues with Fable 2, Gears 2

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October 21, 2008 10:39:38 PM

Article by Ryan Lord

More Xbox 360 titles have leaked online, including Far Cry 2, Fable 2 and Gears of War 2. Is the recent trend of console piracy a reaction to publishers shying away from the PC?

http://www.tomsgames.com/us/2008/10/21/xbox360_piracy/
October 21, 2008 10:59:26 PM

Quote:
A sudden boom in leaked console titles has put a new spin on the issue of game piracy.


^^lol^^ @ the "sudden boom" part.

On a serious note: I hope that someone speaks to Cliffy B. and he has some sort of statement for us. I am curious to hear what he has to say since this affects his company on the console side as well now with GoW 2. Could make for a good laugh imo. All of this is really starting to get out of hand tbh.

Best,

3Ball
October 21, 2008 11:38:50 PM

I'd be lying if I wasn't sort of happy to see that the PC isn't the only platform suffering from piracy. At this point the PS3 is the only system currently piracy proof, although who knows how long that will last. You can already find disc images for a few multi-platform PS3 titles, but there is still no way to play them.
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October 22, 2008 12:39:08 AM

If the PS3 had enough games in demand, it'd be done. With the "refocusing" on consoles due to piracy, it'll probably happen sooner than it would have.

It's not like Sony's DRM systems have proven unbeatable...

I can't say I'm particularly glad to see it happen, but it was predictable to anyone who's spent more than a couple of years in the industry. These CEO's sound more like RIAA lawyers than game company executives.
October 22, 2008 12:49:56 AM

jalek said:
If the PS3 had enough games in demand, it'd be done. With the "refocusing" on consoles due to piracy, it'll probably happen sooner than it would have.

It's not like Sony's DRM systems have proven unbeatable...

I can't say I'm particularly glad to see it happen, but it was predictable to anyone who's spent more than a couple of years in the industry. These CEO's sound more like RIAA lawyers than game company executives.


Yep, there is no such thing as unbeatable DRM. It's simply lacking demand until now.

Remember how EA's much-hated drm for Spore was cracked in one day? A few hours, actually, retail games hit the shelves in the morning, the internet in the evening. If the demand is there, it will be done. Pirates are college kids and teenagers, they have brainpower, and more importantly, creativity on their side. The industry don't stand a chance, they never have, and never will. :p 
October 22, 2008 2:34:02 AM

jalek said:
If the PS3 had enough games in demand, it'd be done. With the "refocusing" on consoles due to piracy, it'll probably happen sooner than it would have.

It's not like Sony's DRM systems have proven unbeatable...

I can't say I'm particularly glad to see it happen, but it was predictable to anyone who's spent more than a couple of years in the industry. These CEO's sound more like RIAA lawyers than game company executives.
When the 360 was cracked it's install base was considerably smaller than the PS3's is now, but no doubt more attention is given to the most popular consoles. The PS3's firmware will be cracked eventually, but to this point it has proven more secure than Microsoft's.
October 22, 2008 2:35:56 AM

That is true, Dagger. I'm a college student, and I've been around in the tech circles (Comp Sci major). Us kids, have things going for us that the industry can't match:
1. Way too much time.
2. New ways of thinking of things (more than once I've had software more efficient than an instructor's).
3. A need to rebel against the man!!!

I think that spending millions is the wrong way to go, and that new pricing strategies are the best way to go about things. Use things like Steam, subscription based pricing, even for FPS (though not $15 a month, probably). I always enjoyed the Korean systems of free/cheap games, but special/unique/more powerful weapons and other useless things (Clan symbols, name changes, Kill/Death ratio resets, etc.) are bought with "real" money. Sell a game for $10, collect $10 a month from every third buyer, and keep supplying new items/maps etc., like MMOs have to to maintain interest/subscriptions.

Either way, DRM is NOT the answer.
October 22, 2008 2:56:36 AM

Don't forget MotoGP 08, Saints Row 2, Golden Axe, Fracture, and Guitar Hero World Tour all leaked days/weeks before their release date. Just like 3Ball said, a response from Epic would make a fine piece of comedy if you ask me :p 

EDIT: Now that I think about it, this has been orchestrated all too well, maybe the cracking groups might be holding out on releasing Far Cry 2 PC version until the official release date at least, while at the same time pumping out fully functional pirated versions of X360 games weeks before the official release. After all, the Far Cry 2 image has been available on certain trackers since sunday, but it's worthless since there is no crack (making it unplayable).

Pirating groups taking a stance against PC piracy... It might be interesting to see where this'll end up. Certainly better than being shafted all the time by console versions and ports.
October 22, 2008 3:18:46 AM

emp said:
Don't forget MotoGP 08, Saints Row 2, Golden Axe, Fracture, and Guitar Hero World Tour all leaked days/weeks before their release date. Just like 3Ball said, a response from Epic would make a fine piece of comedy if you ask me :p 

EDIT: Now that I think about it, this has been orchestrated all too well, maybe the cracking groups might be holding out on releasing Far Cry 2 PC version until the official release date at least, while at the same time pumping out fully functional pirated versions of X360 games weeks before the official release. After all, the Far Cry 2 image has been available on certain trackers since sunday, but it's worthless since there is no crack (making it unplayable).

Pirating groups taking a stance against PC piracy... It might be interesting to see where this'll end up. Certainly better than being shafted all the time by console versions and ports.


Are they really that well coordinated? :sweat: 
October 22, 2008 3:28:59 AM

Maybe not, but that's just the conclusion I'm reaching. Far Cry 2 image has been widely available for more than two days and as far as I know it isn't equipped with more than your average securom used these days, so I don't think these guys should've had that much of a problem considering that Crysis Warhead and Spore were cracked within hours at most.

I just don't see why they'd take so long on october PC releases with the game images so easy to find, while at the same time console piracy pre-release leaks skyrocketed to unforeseen levels.
October 22, 2008 3:52:33 AM

Im glad the pirating is taking off on the 360. Maybe theyll lighten up on the PC now. The should all act like bethesda who doesnt put any security at all, even keys.
October 22, 2008 6:37:27 AM

Here's what really bothers me about this whole argument - I gladly bought my copy of GOW for the PC after playing a pirated version on my friend's 360 and I would just have gladly paid for GOW2 on the PC. Now, my friend who has never paid for a 360 game, just has to download any game he wants, burn it and play it in his 3rd party modified 360, while I will have to resort to using cracked .exe's to play my copies of FC2 and Dead Space (already pre-ordered and paid for) which both employ securom (which I really hate). Seems a bit wonky and it's hard to not take it personally when studios are making statements like Epic's about the PC game industry (I'll never buy another game from then again whether they repent or not) despite the hard evidence that pirating is just as prevalent on consoles as it is on the PC.
October 22, 2008 7:07:24 AM



I would say that most pcs are online right..

So why dont they ad extra content for valid online games - lisense it from Microsoft with the Games for Windows moniker
October 22, 2008 8:26:13 AM

[mode=rant]

1+1=2

Where there are good games for a whole bunch of money, people will pirate them. Why? Well isn't it obvious? Let's say you have a console or a PC and you want this new game.... it will cost you anywhere from $50-$100 for a new game (pricing is even worse on console games than it is on PC games)

Not many people have that much money to spend on games all the time and with the lack of trying before buying, a great many people resort to piracy and will usually only buy the licensed legal copy of a product if it is "worth it".

I have to say that I am honestly glad and maybe even relieved that this piece on piracy hit the news. Piracy will and can be found everywhere where there are products that interest the greater public... the platform doesn't matter at all.

Where there is something to be had/gained, there will be people to claim it.

PC and console cracking/hacking/pirating is just as bad all around the board... move from one market to another and you'll find that your games will still be pirated just as quickly and widely.

However, the companies behind the gaming industry still make plenty of money, don't go around believing that these people eat one less cracker with caviar or drink one less bottle of champagne over the piracy that we have seen in the gaming world since the dawn of computer gaming....

It's always been there and always will be there and I do not believe that the honest consumer needs to be punished by means of DRM or somesuch just because there is this thing called piracy.

It's simple really... single player games will always be massively pirated, as they are offline and thus if you crack them you will be able to play them infinitely without ever even contacting a server or standing out.

Multi player games however can be protected through a user account system, a key authentication system etc... look at Steam, Blizzard or Warhammer Online for instance.... you create a user account, and add all your products and keys etc to it.

Of course there are source and version leaks that result in private servers etc, but these will never and can never yield the same experience as the licensed and official product... this will either cause people to experiment and lose interest, or actually motivate people to buy the real product and enjoy the game as it was meant to be played.

Message to all game designers/producers and those who are in charge of releases and copy protection...: Spend more time in the shoes of a gamer, lower the prices on your merchandise and do not punish gamers who buy your software for the deeds of those who pirate it.
(first and foremost; because those who pirate the software will remove the protections added to the game anyway and play without any hindrance while us honest paying gamers get stuck with the restrictions)

Think about it:
Lower game prices because:
1: Less people who would take the effort of cracking the game simply because just buying it takes less time/money and resources than cracking it.
2: Way more people would buy legal software because it is simply within their price range.
3: Even if your company would produce a "crap game" and people buy it, they won't mind as much because it didn't cost them a small fortune to buy the game in the first place.

Get rid of restrictive copy protection and the likes because:
1: Crackers will remove it from the software anyway.
2: You will restrict the people who actually do buy your software legally.
3: Way less people will actually buy the software if they know it's restrictive.
4: A less restrictive approach is favorable to both the company and the customer.

Make demos and trials available for all games again like in the old days because:
1: If people can try your game for some time before having to actually purchase the full software they can make up their minds on whether they deem the game interesting enough.
2: More demos will mean less people have to resort to piracy for try outs.
3: A demo release before your full release will heighten the awareness for your product and gain you respect and fans in the process.


This concludes my rant for now, but suffice it to say: "Put the focus more on the customer and less on defending and/or protecting your product and you will see Piracy drop and Customer contentedness rise..."
[/rant]

======
Thurin
October 22, 2008 8:30:54 AM

robwright said:
Article by Ryan Lord

More Xbox 360 titles have leaked online, including Far Cry 2, Fable 2 and Gears of War 2. Is the recent trend of console piracy a reaction to publishers shying away from the PC?

http://www.tomsgames.com/us/2008/10/21/xbox360_piracy/


Rob I hope you realise Ryan Lord’s article contradicts a lot of what you’ve been hawking about piracy over the last year, specifically about that piracy on PC compared to the consoles.
October 22, 2008 9:03:28 AM

This Article is ridiculous... Console piracy is nothing new it was always possible since the inclusion of optical drives in consoles.
But you ask why publishers still prefer to release their games on Consoles?

There are at least about 50 million + Gaming PC's out there VS. 20M Xbox 360.
Now! Can you name a game on both systems which sold better on PC? i bet you cant

Gears of war sold 5 million on Xbox 360 vs. 300k on PC ... :lol: 

Crysis sold how many? about 1.5 million on PC ( including bundles with VGA's) , it could have sold easily twice that on Xbox 360 ... i mean a average shooter like Army Of Two sold 2 million on Xbox 360.

AND Microsoft already countered the piracy on Xbox 360 , Newer Xbox 360's Produced after July 2008 ( with Lite-on Drives) Can't be hacked. :hello: 

Now! do i need to say this Article Fails?
October 22, 2008 12:09:19 PM


Quote:
Gears of war sold 5 million on Xbox 360 vs. 300k on PC ...



Thats because everyone bought an Xbox and GOW because hardly anyone would wait for the pc version

If they were bought out at the same time... I bet pc version would of sold more... Also piracy on pc is easier...
October 22, 2008 12:34:57 PM

There are small companies that are against drm, Stardock, for example.
http://pc.ign.com/articles/920/920382p1.html
Their sales are low (less than a million copies for their major titles such as Sin of a Solar Empire), but development costs are also low, no extra costs like advertising and drm contract, and profit margin is far higher than for companies like EA.
October 22, 2008 2:14:32 PM

If these publishers would just get there act together and force some DRM software on the consels we wouldn't have this problem. Although it would only work if it was something like embeding unremovable key registrey files, forceing online activation, and limit the use of the game on only 3 consoles. Maybe then we can prevent piracey. Because EA already proved that they can prevent piracey with DRM. Just look at Spore. Oh wait... We'll at least they proved they are the true owners of the games and not you. You just rent from them. This problem will NEVER go away. Instead of conscentrating on the piracy problem, maybe conscentrate on just making a good game. A massive majority of people will always buy good games.
October 22, 2008 3:11:42 PM

if you have a much bigger number of consoles out there than pc´s, just make the math and you will find which platform suffers most from piracy. son dont blame just pc gamers for that
October 22, 2008 3:56:57 PM

This is really getting out of hand. The music industry did it first. Then the movie industry. Now the game industry. What did they do you ask? They treat their consumers like criminals while charging them exorbitant prices for crappy product. Piracy is nothing new and will probably never go away. However you will notice that the music industry is starting to catch on. They are finally releasing DRM free product at reasonable prices for products that the consumer gets to pick instead of being forced to buy a bunch of crap to get the one track they want. Because of this music piracy is on the decline. I guess we just have to see who will catch on next. The movie or game industry.

For those that keep going on about STEAM being the "holy grail" of gaming and anti-DRM, there is something you should know. Even games distributed through STEAM can and do still come with DRM like SecurRom. I think this is the dumbest thing to effectively double the anti-piracy protection. It is more likely that the developer is too lazy to repackage their installer to remove the SecurRom. If they are too lazy to do that then imagine how lazy they are about the content of their games.

STEAM could be the best thing for PC gaming if developers used it the way it was intended. Unfortunately all of us that purchase our games are villains and our loyalty is worth nothing to them. I used to get really excited about new up coming games and would even plan my next PC upgrade around them. Now I just find myself looking to build the most reliable system I can for as little as I can since I am no longer enthused by Game industry. Have I ever played a cracked or pirated game?.. sure.. but not because I had some malicious evil plan to rob the industry of profits. It was usually just a bunch of guys doing a small LAN party and the games where usually several years old when we played them and we didn't already own it and couldn't find it in stores anymore.

Well... I've ranted on enough about this and frankly I am getting fed up with the whole thing. I have canceled all my pre-orders that have SecurRom and only plan to buy a few titles for my 360 in the near future and most of them are on my birthday wish list. Do I think developers and distributors should do away with DRM?.. most certainly. At the same time I think the "pirates" need to back off as well. Turn those skills of yours into something more productive so you can afford to buy the games. Although I think the Game industry needs to be the first one to back down.
October 22, 2008 4:01:49 PM

P30, I never implied that console piracy is a new problem. I know it's been around for ages, even in the NES days with those bootleg mega carts. I do believe however that console piracy is on the rise beyond the tech geek community. Modified consoles are now beginning to make their way into the homes of general consumers much more than what we've seen with previous generations of consoles.

Modding shops and services are popping up all across the US (and more-so overseas). Pre-modified consoles and pre-made burned games are making their way to even places like Ebay, Craigslist, etc. There are even instructional videos on Youtube that take people through step by step mods of all the consoles. There has definitely been an increase in public awareness, accessibility, and popularity of modded consoles.

Regarding your stats of pcs and consoles, you're not factoring in how many of those pcs are dedicated to pc gaming. If there were 50 million gaming pcs, then wouldn't World of Warcraft have at least 30-40 million of those? Last I checked, they broke 10 million subscribers with what is the most popular game the PC has ever seen, and that's worldwide.

Gears of War did not launch on the same day, but many months later. The PC port was littered with hard protection, Live for Windows, bad controls, and a recycled campaign.

Crysis had system demands way ahead of the curve of mainstream, and shut itself off from a large chunk of the gaming community because of that. It also went head to head with Call of Duty 4.

I understand that Lite-on drives cannot be flashed (yet perhaps), but there are plenty of refurbished, used, and old stock out there waiting for a flash. I also understand that there are people selling old drives out there for people who get stuck with a lite-on, or have theirs replaced during refurb. MS has not globally fixed the problem.
October 22, 2008 6:42:48 PM

JeanLuc said:
Rob I hope you realise Ryan Lord’s article contradicts a lot of what you’ve been hawking about piracy over the last year, specifically about that piracy on PC compared to the consoles.


I believe my stance on the issue has been that piracy is more damaging for the PC platform than the consoles, at least here in the states, because 1) there are more consoles games being sold and thefore they can better withstand to lose a percentage of sales whereas PC games suffer more, and 2) pretty much every PC gamer can download a cracked game, but the console crowd isn't as technically savvy and may not know how to pirate console titles, even though flashing a 360 or whatever is exceedingly easy. So it's not so much the hardware/software, but the audience. So when i say that PC gaming piracy is worse, let me clarify -- it may not be the number or torrents/downloads is worse for the PC, but the cummulative effects for the platform are more damaging.

As for the rest of the article, we're not contending that console piracy is new. It obviously isn't. But having several high profile 360 titles leak weeks in advanced of their release and well BEFORE the PC versions of the titles leak is an interesting trend, and one that suggests, as Ryan wrote in the article, that torrent groups are trying to make a statement regarding console piracy.
October 22, 2008 7:26:08 PM

jalek said:
If the PS3 had enough games in demand, it'd be done.


I think Jalek just solved the piracy problem.

If game makes simply make games that no one lwants, then there will be no one to pirate the games! I cant believe no one thought of that before. To think Sony had the answers all along. No Demand = No Piracy

This would end the DRM debate, and think of the money every gamer would save!
October 22, 2008 7:32:19 PM

P30 said:
This Article is ridiculous... Console piracy is nothing new it was always possible since the inclusion of optical drives in consoles.
But you ask why publishers still prefer to release their games on Consoles?

There are at least about 50 million + Gaming PC's out there VS. 20M Xbox 360.
Now! Can you name a game on both systems which sold better on PC? i bet you cant

Gears of war sold 5 million on Xbox 360 vs. 300k on PC ... :lol: 

Crysis sold how many? about 1.5 million on PC ( including bundles with VGA's) , it could have sold easily twice that on Xbox 360 ... i mean a average shooter like Army Of Two sold 2 million on Xbox 360.

AND Microsoft already countered the piracy on Xbox 360 , Newer Xbox 360's Produced after July 2008 ( with Lite-on Drives) Can't be hacked. :hello: 

Now! do i need to say this Article Fails?


Gears of War, like Halo and basically all games available on Consoles, was released first on console, and only later, when interest weaned, on PC. It's a means to boost console usage.

There are rare examples of games available first on PC then moved to console, such as Starcraft. Sales figures are the exact reversal of Gears of War.

As for Crysis on console, it's not going to happen. Xbox 360 use ATI Xeno (R520) running on dx9, which is adaptation of x1900. Crysis is too stressful.
October 22, 2008 9:10:50 PM

Console piracy is not new it goes way way back. I remember when I finally decided to get my PSOne my friends had theirs for a while and were pirating the games for a long time. Pirating for Consoles is more accesible why? Simple if you are comfortable enough to tinker with your hardware you can order the chip or flash online and install it your self, if you are not technically savy you can have a friend to do it, and if you cant find a friend to do it then you can order a pre moded console online, and this has been going on since before high speed internet was available everywhere.

Most importantly games have been more available for pirating for the consoles than for the PC's why, am I the only one here who knows people that rent games to simply copy them? I bet those are not in any tracking statistic for Torrent Sites? It is just plain easier to get a console game to have it pirated than to do a PC game, Where can you rent a PC game? The only way to get to the install for the game is online or to find someone to borrow it from, and if your friends don't have nice gaming rigs they more than likely wont have the PC version of the game because they cant run it.

I'm a die hard PC gamer, and I have been looking forward to Dead Space, Left 4 Dead and many upcoming PC tittles that will be releasing within the next few months, and I was disgusted when I found out that all those titles would have SecuRom, so much so that I had to go to my local Gamestop and cancel the pre-orders of every game I found has SecuRom included in it and I'm not planning on buying any of them for the consoles. I dont think its fair that the true fan who spends his hard earned money on games to have them include things like SecuRom without even notifying the end user. I'm sure that there are many more like me out there that just simply wont buy any games that include SecuRom or will buy them and have to get the pirated version in order to play it without hurting your system. Personally I had to do that for BioShock, and Crysis Warhead (which I found out it had SecuRom after I got it). I think its funny how this PC piracy has become such a big deal lately when console piracy is as old or even older.

Personally I have consoles for console exclusive titles all titles released on PC belong on my PC, I also feel insulted when I pay $60 for a console game that barely has 8 hours of gameplay on it. I admit I know pirates that their only reason for pirating games is that exact thing, when I ask them why they do it they say "I'ts easier to pirate a console game than a PC game, I just go to the video store make a copy and return it, besides the amount of gameplay on console games today is not worth $60". Now on the other hand I ask them why did they buy games like Bioshock after they had it pirated and the reply was very interesting "This game is work my $60; its not a game I can beat by having a sick day at work and over all its a quality game, so yes they deserve my hard earned dollars for the quality of their product". Now I admit not all people that pirate games are like that but there are those that if the game is good they will get it. It's interesting how I only know about 5 people who pirate PC games but know a whole network that pirate Console games, in fact if you go to your local flea markets if you look hard enough you can find some guy in a corner that sells pirated console games for $5 now ask him for a PC game and he will look at you like you are crazy.
October 22, 2008 9:36:43 PM

Rejoice in the fact that at least Left 4 Dead will not only be far far superior in the PC, but will not have any secuROM :) .
October 22, 2008 10:53:50 PM

dagger said:
Xbox 360 use ATI Xeno (R520) running on dx9, which is adaptation of x1900. Crysis is too stressful.
That's not correct; the Xbox 360's "Xenos" GPU is actually the R500. It has 16 ROPs, 16 TMUs, 48 unified shaders capable of pixel and vertex(no geometry shader support), and 10MB of integrated eDRAM. It also has tessellation support as seen in the Radeon 2900 series, 3800 series, and 4800 series. If you compared regular Direct X9 performance, it would probably look a lot like the R520, but it is an entirely different GPU. The Xbox360 likely would be able to run Crysis, but the quality would have to be toned down a bit, likely to medium. Since the Xbox360 does have a limited amount of memory, they would likely want to cache or install data to the hard drive. Crysis on the Xbox 360 certainly wouldn't be impossible, it just wouldn't be as good as the PC version.
October 23, 2008 12:08:17 AM

Heyyou27 said:
That's not correct; the Xbox 360's "Xenos" GPU is actually the R500. It has 16 ROPs, 16 TMUs, 48 unified shaders capable of pixel and vertex(no geometry shader support), and 10MB of integrated eDRAM. It also has tessellation support as seen in the Radeon 2900 series, 3800 series, and 4800 series. If you compared regular Direct X9 performance, it would probably look a lot like the R520, but it is an entirely different GPU. The Xbox360 likely would be able to run Crysis, but the quality would have to be toned down a bit, likely to medium. Since the Xbox360 does have a limited amount of memory, they would likely want to cache or install data to the hard drive. Crysis on the Xbox 360 certainly wouldn't be impossible, it just wouldn't be as good as the PC version.


Hd2900 has 320 unified shaders, compared to 48 primitive ones of Xeno. It's an early initial design derived from x1900, during the switchover from discrete specialized units to unified stream processors. The dx9 card is similar to dx9 x1900, and not close to dx10 hd2900 at all, both performance and feature wise. It's unlikely to handle Crysis, even at medium, unless it's traditional non-hd resolution (640x480) that older consoles like the first Xbox runs at.
October 23, 2008 1:47:47 AM

dagger said:
Hd2900 has 320 unified shaders, compared to 48 primitive ones of Xeno. It's an early initial design derived from x1900, during the switchover from discrete specialized units to unified stream processors. The dx9 card is similar to dx9 x1900, and not close to dx10 hd2900 at all, both performance and feature wise. It's unlikely to handle Crysis, even at medium, unless it's traditional non-hd resolution (640x480) that older consoles like the first Xbox runs at.
The unified shaders seen in the R500 aren't the same as the ones in the R600. Technically, the R600 doesn't have 320 shaders, but 64 shaders capable of 5 operations per clock cycle, but I bet if they were compared, an individual "shader" of those "320" on the R600 would likely be slower than a single one in the R500 when it comes to pixel/vertex work. You say that the Xenos wouldn't be capable of playing higher than 640x480, but Crysis can already run at higher resolutions on an X1900. You also aren't considering that a console version of Crysis will be a lot more optimized than the PC version, as it will only be designed to run on a SINGLE hardware configuration. Other than tessellation, the R500 is a DirectX9 GPU, however tessellation is one of the biggest features listed in Direct X10.1 / 11.
October 23, 2008 5:55:09 AM

So many good points made on this thread. I'll just say that this is a black eye they had coming for jumping on a shortsighted bandwagon. Better titles, better quality, fairer hardware requirements would be better remedies than abandoning one platform for the false sense of security another platform offers publishers. There are so very many reasons why PC gaming has been falling in and out of hard times for years, missing the obvious (that it's more their fault for releasing expensive titles that require a horrific amount of time/money spent on upgrading just to squeeze by on a tolerable frame rate than it is the consumer's and pirate's fault) has only pushed another side of this beast into the spotlight.

I think sooner or later they may resort to more drastic measures, but for now they show how poorly thought out their plans have been if any of what's happening comes at all as a surprise.
October 23, 2008 3:09:27 PM

Icehearted said:
So many good points made on this thread. I'll just say that this is a black eye they had coming for jumping on a shortsighted bandwagon. Better titles, better quality, fairer hardware requirements would be better remedies than abandoning one platform for the false sense of security another platform offers publishers. There are so very many reasons why PC gaming has been falling in and out of hard times for years, missing the obvious (that it's more their fault for releasing expensive titles that require a horrific amount of time/money spent on upgrading just to squeeze by on a tolerable frame rate than it is the consumer's and pirate's fault) has only pushed another side of this beast into the spotlight.

I think sooner or later they may resort to more drastic measures, but for now they show how poorly thought out their plans have been if any of what's happening comes at all as a surprise.
I agree with you 100%; I'm tired of titles that are originally on the 360 that come out late only to run like **** with my 8800GTX. Anyone who played the PC version of Rainbow Six Vegas knows what I'm talking about. Piracy has always existed, and though it has gotten worse in recent years. If developers put as much effort into the PC versions as they do the 360/PS3 sales would be better.
October 24, 2008 1:50:23 PM

No offense intended here but in my honest opinion:

Software Piracy is like any other Crime rate...

People always complain it increased more the last couple of years.... it's worse now than in my day...etc etc etc...

The way I see it:

Crime and in particular Software Piracy have not changed that much at all ... they did it then, they do it now ... difference ? -> The amount of time and effort people put in it to showing the world how bad it really is.

More people = more consoles/pcs = more pirates

I'm not saying Pirac is a good thing, but what I am saying is that they can avoid a lot of the piracy by a few simple things:

1: Make a good game
2: Make it affordable
3: Spend more time on quality and the clients interest than protecting your game from being cracked as this will happen anyway no matter how well you protect your product. (in the end you only restrict the owners of a legal copy of your game, since hackers and crackers are only likely to find cracking a game with more protection a bigger challenge and thus more fun/more of an accomplishment)

Message:
Step up to the plate and kick your quality up a notch and costs down some.

*sigh*

Can't say it enough....

Thurin
October 24, 2008 1:56:49 PM

Plus: if your game scores well on the "Heck This Game Is Just Awesome 'o' Meter", you will need no copy protection (save for account creation / passwords / cd-keys maybe for online play) as people will find the game so massively awesome that everyone will want a LEGAL copy.
October 24, 2008 4:23:46 PM

Quote:
if your game scores well on the "Heck This Game Is Just Awesome 'o' Meter", you will need no copy protection (save for account creation / passwords / cd-keys maybe for online play) as people will find the game so massively awesome that everyone will want a LEGAL copy.

I always get a good chuckle out of that argument for why piracy happens. Because we all know that only crappy games get pirated. Actually I'm willing to bet that "Cesar Millan's Dog Whisperer" is right at the top of the torrent list.
October 24, 2008 4:41:07 PM

purplerat said:
Quote:
if your game scores well on the "Heck This Game Is Just Awesome 'o' Meter", you will need no copy protection (save for account creation / passwords / cd-keys maybe for online play) as people will find the game so massively awesome that everyone will want a LEGAL copy.

I always get a good chuckle out of that argument for why piracy happens. Because we all know that only crappy games get pirated. Actually I'm willing to bet that "Cesar Millan's Dog Whisperer" is right at the top of the torrent list.
All games get pirated, it's just that good ones sell copies too, so the piracy issue doesn't seem as big.
October 24, 2008 4:44:57 PM

Thurin said:
Plus: if your game scores well on the "Heck This Game Is Just Awesome 'o' Meter", you will need no copy protection (save for account creation / passwords / cd-keys maybe for online play) as people will find the game so massively awesome that everyone will want a LEGAL copy.



Thurin, I understand your point, however I think your perspective is a little naive. Just look at the torrents for Call of Duty 4. I'd say that's one game that would score pretty damn well on the Awesome o Meter. And if your logic holds up, then awesome games (with CD keys and online MP and no DRM) would never be pirated or at least be downloaded very little compared to weaker titles. I think we can all agree that this is not the case with Call of Duty 4. That game was pirated pretty heavily, to the point where Infinity Ward basically said nearly half the number of people playing MP online were using pirated copies.
October 24, 2008 5:20:15 PM

Heyyou27 said:
All games get pirated, it's just that good ones sell copies too, so the piracy issue doesn't seem as big.

If you were to look at a list of top selling games versus a list of most pirated games they would almost mirror each other (with the exception of WoW and the likes there of). Now obviously better sales are good, even if it's accompanied by increased piracy. But the idea that the decision to pirate a game rather than pay for it is inverse to the desirability of the game is just plain silly. Not only do the facts and figures debunk this idea (like Rob pointed out in regards to COD4), but just common sense and logic should dictate that it's not the case.

Trialsking put it very well:
Quote:
If game makes simply make games that no one lwants, then there will be no one to pirate the games! I cant believe no one thought of that before. To think Sony had the answers all along. No Demand = No Piracy


While that's funny and all I think some game companies have figured that out. Why waste tons of money making a game that targets the real gamer audience knowing it will get pirated like crazy. Instead you can spend just a fraction of the cost on a really weak title targeted at the casual gamer who doesn't know good from crap and at least get all of those sales. Think that isn't happening? Go to the PC section of www.gamestop.com and see how many titles are advertised that no real PC gaming fan would even bother to look at.
October 24, 2008 5:24:29 PM

Of course popular games get pirated by a larger amount, but they also sell for a larger amount too. Unpopular games only get pirated, not brought. A minority of people who pirated a good game will end up buying it for multiplayer/boxset, etc. No one who pirated a bad game will buy it.
October 24, 2008 10:27:19 PM

I had to reply to this issue..

I owned an XBOX 360. I bought my 360 only for 1 game and the game is Gears of War.

I hacked my 360 I was gonna make a list of the games that worth the money that I really enjoyed and buy them from some online store.
like Call of Duty 4, Gta 4 and to pre order Gears of War 2 if the game worth the money I WILL pay for it. There are many crappy games. So I thought to myself I will try the game and buy it if it's good.

The first game that I bought after I played a backup copy is of course GOW. I was blown away from COD4 and Gta 4 is truly amazing.
I bought COD4 and wanted to buy GTA4.

Well guess what the sticking Xbox 360 hardware failed and I got the 3RROD. I couldn't contact Microsoft because I don't live in the US. And I opened my box so here goes the warranty.

I used XBOX-Scene's Forums and succeeded to revive my XBOX 360. Hot air gun penny trick but it was a time question: Since I have a Xenon board no matter what I'll try it's only affective for a week a month and then you need to find another method.

After looking at the new games available today. Gears of war 2 looks amazing. Fable Far cry. I decided that I will wait for a Jasper. Replace the Lite on drive with my old machine. AND WILL NEVER BUY A SINGLE GAME TO XBOX 360 CONSOLE! Every game I will download and play it without any pangs of conscience.
October 24, 2008 10:57:31 PM

wicked2000 said:
I had to reply to this issue..

I owned an XBOX 360. I bought my 360 only for 1 game and the game is Gears of War.

I hacked my 360 I was gonna make a list of the games that worth the money that I really enjoyed and buy them from some online store.
like Call of Duty 4, Gta 4 and to pre order Gears of War 2 if the game worth the money I WILL pay for it. There are many crappy games. So I thought to myself I will try the game and buy it if it's good.

The first game that I bought after I played a backup copy is of course GOW. I was blown away from COD4 and Gta 4 is truly amazing.
I bought COD4 and wanted to buy GTA4.

Well guess what the sticking Xbox 360 hardware failed and I got the 3RROD. I couldn't contact Microsoft because I don't live in the US. And I opened my box so here goes the warranty.

I used XBOX-Scene's Forums and succeeded to revive my XBOX 360. Hot air gun penny trick but it was a time question: Since I have a Xenon board no matter what I'll try it's only affective for a week a month and then you need to find another method.

After looking at the new games available today. Gears of war 2 looks amazing. Fable Far cry. I decided that I will wait for a Jasper. Replace the Lite on drive with my old machine. AND WILL NEVER BUY A SINGLE GAME TO XBOX 360 CONSOLE! Every game I will download and play it without any pangs of conscience.


Wicked, I'm not sure if I understand your comments, so please feel free to correct me. But it seems to me you're basically stating that you got the 360 for Gears of War but wanted to try out other games before paying for them, so you modded your Xbox 360 to play pirated games, and then the hardware failed and your voided the warranty was useless, and now you believe that gives you justification to take games without ever paying for them?
October 24, 2008 11:05:30 PM

robwright said:
Wicked, I'm not sure if I understand your comments, so please feel free to correct me. But it seems to me you're basically stating that you got the 360 for Gears of War but wanted to try out other games before paying for them, so you modded your Xbox 360 to play pirated games, and then the hardware failed and your voided the warranty was useless, and now you believe that gives you justification to take games without ever paying for them?


Solid hardware shouldn't fail, no? :na: 

But that reminds me of another thing: They should really make demos available. Years ago, it was the rule that every new game has a partial demo that you can try before buying. Now, it's the exception. :p 
October 24, 2008 11:26:04 PM

I used to be a PC gamer. But after seeing at 2006 Gears of war I said to myself that I must play this game. It had everything in his time.
Just amazing game.

After playing this game and finished it 2 times (hardest level 1 player and 2 players) the next thing I did was to go into Ebay and buy a new retail full price.

Because I don't have much time so I am "trying" the big name games.
Call Of duty 4 is totally amazing so I bought this game full price.
Friday night Fight 3 was good so I bought it resell. Pro Evolution I have it too and more titles...

Now I don't live in the US. I live in Israel. Microsoft is not selling officially XBOX 360in Israel. So whoever buys it is on his own when it comes to failures.
And while you complain about 60$ price tag in Israel is 400nis for Xbox 360's games. 1nis is 3.8$ so the price is 105$ in Israel. And the accessories are very expensive. So I use Ebay. I need to pay for delivery more than you or any other US citizen.
So If I am going to buy a game! it must worth his money.

I bought my XBOX 360 from the US (Someone came back from a trip and bought it there and sneak it into Israel).

After a year or so My XBOX 360 got the 3RROD. Well Microsoft can't help me with nothing.

Now I really don't justify the failure of my 360 to pirating games. But I am really pissed off. It's not easy for me to just go into a local BestBuy or other store and buy 360 arcade at 200$. In Israel Pro costs about 500$. And if I want to buy from Ebay I'll have to send it from Ebay to Israel it will cost me about 70$ and I will need to pay taxes that is another 150$. So do the math.

I am not justifing it. But I am pissed off to sell it to myself so I could live with it. There are a lot of people in Israel that have 3RROD systems , And they need to pay about 100$ for a local store to fix it. Now how can you tell a guy to buy an original game when he needs to pay 100$ to fix it. Or to pay taxes while the US guy just goes into a store pays 200$ for an arcade.

This is how I justify it. I can't really miss GOW2.

My luck is that I love tech and mess with it. So I could do all of the fixing alone. So I saved a lot of money. But people paid a lot to fix theirs.

I hope I cleared it for you.

*one more thing that I forgot to mention is:
This happened to a friend of mine that didn't want to get banned from live so he bought only orginals resells and pre ordered some/
If you live in Israel and you have a closed 360 with valid warranty that means that you can only play originals and you buy only originals and your system suffers from 3RROD because Microsoft cuts corners and saving a lot of money on testing. Now this guy wants to fix his console in Israel he contact Microsoft and they told him to pay 70euro. You pushed this guy for Piracy. He buys a new console 2. And guess what he has Hitachi 79 why I am telling you this because he is not going to buy games any more.
October 25, 2008 11:16:04 PM

One easy way to block piracy for online play is for say Infinity to have a list of all serial codes for each disk on their database.
Unless it's in their database it doesn't get online , simple as that.
Of course they would absolutely need to be 100% accurate with all codes.
Or else ship COD4 (example) with just single player for a much reduced price.
Anyone that wants to play multiplayer pay a subscription or once off payment.
Multiplayer would only be downloadable and only from Infinity server and price would be the same you pay for today's version of that game.
October 25, 2008 11:19:51 PM

and for christ's sake fix the editing option on the forums. Not being allowed to edit your own post is rediculous.
October 27, 2008 12:50:51 AM

airblazer said:
One easy way to block piracy for online play is for say Infinity to have a list of all serial codes for each disk on their database.
Unless it's in their database it doesn't get online , simple as that.
Of course they would absolutely need to be 100% accurate with all codes.
Or else ship COD4 (example) with just single player for a much reduced price.
Anyone that wants to play multiplayer pay a subscription or once off payment.
Multiplayer would only be downloadable and only from Infinity server and price would be the same you pay for today's version of that game.


You know that your "solution" is what it's currently implemented, right? The reason you can play online with a pirated copy is because the cracked server does not check for CD keys.
October 27, 2008 9:56:45 AM

Mr Wright,

My point is not that it will never happen with good quality games, but that it will be a less frequent sight to see people not buy the game legally after trying it first.

Plus on CoD 4 as far as I know there is no solid prevention of illegal online us such as account creation using a legal CD key like for instance was previously done on even an old game such as Diablo 2.

It is doable to make a system that doesn't restrict owners of a legal copy, but limit the usage of hacked/cracked games through the official servers. (thus making it less attractive for players to play without owning a legal copy)

And on top of it all CoD 4 still sells for quite a lot of money here in Europe, so price wise some users may not be able to afford it or want to save up for it. Now I know it's a feeble excuse to not want to save up, but some people just need any excuse not to get a legal copy... and those people will either forget about the game completely or be forced to buy a legal copy if the game industry would adopt an authentication server system that only allows access through authentication and one active user per account at any one time.)

Just some of the points that came to mind on the subject.

Greetings,

Thurin

PS: About the possible naive attitude towards it all, to be honest I cannot see the big picture as I am not a game developer nor a publisher... But I wonder where the line is between loyal customer harassment and adequate Software / Intellectual Property protection. (fully realizing of course that no one is forcing us to buy any piece of software )
October 27, 2008 10:04:35 AM

[edit]
>>>>
My point is not that it will never happen with good quality games, but that it will be a less frequent sight to see people not buy the game legally after trying it first. (Therefor the developers/publishers of these games will not suffer as much as the developers/publishers that publish a game that is "not worth buying")

Plus on CoD 4 as far as I know there is no solid prevention of illegal online us such as account creation using a legal CD key like for instance was previously done on even an old game such as Diablo 2. (Now fully aware of the fact that the underlying technology and Software programming is old and shoddy for this era, it can be further evolved to match today's generation of hackers and crackers and today's technology.)
<<<<
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October 27, 2008 10:55:25 AM

"no solid prevention of illegal online use " is what I meant of course
October 27, 2008 1:46:50 PM

Guys - im pretty damn sure that a quick edit actually does still work :) 
!