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So, my "friend" is a pirate, some interesting insights.

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October 31, 2008 1:26:33 PM

Well, I have a "friend" named Dave. Dave pirates games often. I for one hate PC pirates, they hurt the industry that we love, and jepordize it's future. This fact cannot be denied, developers are shying away from the PC because of pirates, they have said it themselves. PC gaming is not 'dying' it will never die, but it has begun to lose its exsclusiveness.

Why does Dave pirate his games?

Me and my friends have recently purchased a few excellent titles (Far Cry 2 and Fallout 3) Far Cry 2 has some intense DRM that comes along with it, including Internet activation, limited installs, cd-check and all that hoo-ha. Fallout 3 on the other hand comes with a cd key, but doesn't even ask for it when installing. It DOES have a form of DRM, but it is very slight and quite user friendly imo.

Dave has pirated both of these games. SO DRM CAN'T be the reason for his pirating.

It boils my blood to pay 100$+ for these two excellent games, and then associate with someone who I know has gotten these titles for free, has hurt the gaming industy, and acts so coy about the whole thing.

Not to mention, I built his entire computer from scratch over the summer, which was a 1200$+ build. I did it for free, welcoming another PC gamer to our great ranks.

What have I created? Another pirate? I am ashamed of his actions. He has also recently pirated Dead Space, and some other big titles. :fou: 

The most prevalent thing he says to me is that " I don't have the money to buy these epic games, but how can I let other people enjoy this experience, and not me?" :heink: 

He admits they are great games, knows it is an epic experience, and praises the developer. Yet he pirates their game without a second thought. :non: 

Dave is 23 years old, he lives at home in his basement, he does not attend school. IMO opinion Dave should man-up and work a day (or less) and come up with the 50$ to plop down for a game that will give him many hours of enjoyment.

Dave may not be the model of every pirate out there, but if he is, then I have concluded that most pirates are 20-30 year old kids living at their parents house, in their basements, not working, and sulking in their own laziness.

Dave is not my friend.
October 31, 2008 1:37:55 PM

Its hard to educate people if they do not care.

Dave needs to start understanding and caring about the industry before he realises he needs to grow some balls and work for what he wants, as an honest Man would.

Unfortunately in today's society it is so easy to get what you want for free (as a generalisation) with very little deterrance.
October 31, 2008 1:41:09 PM

Dave sounds like a real prick.
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October 31, 2008 2:11:11 PM

ROFL, good for Dave. Only happen in rich countries. He'd have starved to death in most parts of the world. :D 

There's a term describing this social phenomenon:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikikomori

As for piracy, people do it because they can, of course. DRMs certainly don't help, but they're obviously not the main reason. Yeah, what a shock. :sarcastic: 

More people do it then you think, they just don't admit it. Personally, I pirate every new game as they come out, without exception. Only around 1/3 of them, or roughly $150-200 per month variable, gets brought later (for multiplayer, or just adding to collection). Piracy is simply so convenient those days. It takes less time to download a game than running to the store, and you don't have to pay for it! :na: 
October 31, 2008 2:42:44 PM

I'll be honest with you, I was wary of Far Cry 2 (simply because it's an ubisoft title developed by ubisoft), so even though logic told me I was in for disappointment, I thought that maybe they couldn't screw such a great game as Far Cry, being cautious as I am I proceeded to get a taste of the game and downloaded it.

THANK GOD I DID. Far Cry 2 is the worst POS of 2008, and I've played some really crappy games this year, this is the first game this year that not only I had to stop playing, but completely delete any trace of it from my HDD, just so I'd feel safe enough that it won't crawl back from the depths of the recycle bin. I am happy to say that I had no hesitation to get Fallout 3 at all though, so the above wasn't necessary. And any doubts I had of Dead Space were also dispelled by playing it an hour or so.

Just like dagger said, even though Fallout 3 was a sure buy with guaranteed quality, Far Cry 2 and Dead Space weren't. If I hadn't downloaded Far Cry 2 I would be out of $50 and with no way to return such a horrible, ill conceived piece of junk.
October 31, 2008 2:51:21 PM

I can't really condemn your ex-friend since I used to pirate games myself. But if I liked it, I would actually buy the game; for example Morrowind. Now I simply buy my games 'cause I grew out of that phase and I can afford to do so (or at least budget for it).

It suppose if I were still 23 years old, I would be pirating more than I would be buying. The temptation to pirate will always be there for most people because it is easy enough, avoids DRM and it's free. I learned to simply do without certain games if it had DRM that I didn't like.

For example, I didn't buy X3 - Reunion until the publisher officially removed StarForce from the game, the catch was the patch had to be applied before X3 was launched for the first time because that is when StarForce gets installed.

Games I would have liked to buy this year, but didn't due to DRM are as follows:

Spore
Crysis Warhead
Far Cry 2

I won't pirate them, but I will also not buy them unless the DRM is eventually removed for those game (like the case for X3 or the more well known BioShock)

I chose to buy Fallout 3 over Far Cry 2 because:
1. Less invasive DRM
2. It's a RPG game
October 31, 2008 2:59:40 PM

Well Spore isn't really that engaging unless you really enjoy that type of game, you can play a few times if you want, but I grew bored of it.

Warhead was excellent, the alien part was better implemented than that of Crysis and I actually enjoyed it A LOT. (Played the SP twice)

Far Cry 2, please spare yourself the pain and misery of playing this game, you would only end up disgracing not only yourself, but your HDD and every part of your computer that will inevitably end up being infected by this dreaded piece of 'software'. I'm serious, anyone that gives that game an 8 or a 9 out of 10 was on crack when they were reviewing, those who gave it 6 or 7 out of 10 were just being EXTREMELY generous (God will repay your charity some day...).
October 31, 2008 3:29:44 PM

Annisman said:
Well, I have a "friend" named Dave. Dave pirates games often. I for one hate PC pirates, they hurt the industry that we love, and jepordize it's future. This fact cannot be denied, developers are shying away from the PC because of pirates, they have said it themselves. PC gaming is not 'dying' it will never die, but it has begun to lose its exsclusiveness.

Why does Dave pirate his games?

Me and my friends have recently purchased a few excellent titles (Far Cry 2 and Fallout 3) Far Cry 2 has some intense DRM that comes along with it, including Internet activation, limited installs, cd-check and all that hoo-ha. Fallout 3 on the other hand comes with a cd key, but doesn't even ask for it when installing. It DOES have a form of DRM, but it is very slight and quite user friendly imo.

Dave has pirated both of these games. SO DRM CAN'T be the reason for his pirating.

It boils my blood to pay 100$+ for these two excellent games, and then associate with someone who I know has gotten these titles for free, has hurt the gaming industy, and acts so coy about the whole thing.

Not to mention, I built his entire computer from scratch over the summer, which was a 1200$+ build. I did it for free, welcoming another PC gamer to our great ranks.

What have I created? Another pirate? I am ashamed of his actions. He has also recently pirated Dead Space, and some other big titles. :fou: 

The most prevalent thing he says to me is that " I don't have the money to buy these epic games, but how can I let other people enjoy this experience, and not me?" :heink: 

He admits they are great games, knows it is an epic experience, and praises the developer. Yet he pirates their game without a second thought. :non: 

Dave is 23 years old, he lives at home in his basement, he does not attend school. IMO opinion Dave should man-up and work a day (or less) and come up with the 50$ to plop down for a game that will give him many hours of enjoyment.

Dave may not be the model of every pirate out there, but if he is, then I have concluded that most pirates are 20-30 year old kids living at their parents house, in their basements, not working, and sulking in their own laziness.

Dave is not my friend.


Piracy is nothing more than digital looting in this case. Dave can't afford to pay for the stuff, so he loots it and ays everyone else is playing these games/downloading them illegally, so why can't I?

Dave needs to get a f---ing job or find a less expensive hobby.
October 31, 2008 3:45:21 PM

To the people using the excuse that they cannot return a bad game if they do not enjoy it - an entire industry based around playing and reviewing games exists to inform you on new releases.
October 31, 2008 3:48:31 PM

Humans are, by their nature, greedy. If you aren't forced to think about the consequences, you won't suffer from a negative emotional reaction. If you don't think about it, you will be quite happy :( .
October 31, 2008 3:55:42 PM

pr2thej said:
To the people using the excuse that they cannot return a bad game if they do not enjoy it - an entire industry based around playing and reviewing games exists to inform you on new releases.


What good is this so called industry when they are all having orgasmic reactions to the worst piece of junk of 2008? If I were to go by them I would have probably ended up regretting it because I was screwed out of $50, I know this because it happened to me before. The most down-to-earth review I've read so far is Tom's Games review, and the reviewer was EXTREMELY generous with the 7 out of 10 score.

If these reviews were actually accurate and reflected the game, then maybe just maybe I'd consider them. But when a magazine scores 60ish out of 100 to Crysis Warhead (which was an excellent game by the way), while giving a 94 out of 100 to Far Cry 2, I'd be wary not only of Ubisoft's junk but also professional reviews in general.

I buy games that I know will be good, in fact I pre-purchased Left 4 Dead as soon as it was available on Steam (and by this I mean 10 minutes after the pre-purchase option became available), this kind of trust in a company and their product is what Ubisoft simply doesn't have with me. When Valve advertises that they are selling diamonds they really are selling you perfectly-cut diamonds, but when Ubisoft advertises diamonds, they are actually selling the cheapest of zircons more often than not.
October 31, 2008 3:56:32 PM

spuddyt said:
Humans are, by their nature, greedy. If you aren't forced to think about the consequences, you won't suffer from a negative emotional reaction. If you don't think about it, you will be quite happy :( .


Exactly! +1.

And it's been getting harder to sympathize with the industry lately. :sarcastic: 
October 31, 2008 4:22:35 PM

Quote:
What good is this so called industry when they are all having orgasmic reactions to the worst piece of junk of 2008? If I were to go by them I would have probably ended up regretting it because I was screwed out of $50, I know this because it happened to me before. The most down-to-earth review I've read so far is Tom's Games review, and the reviewer was EXTREMELY generous with the 7 out of 10 score.

If you're really concerned about whether a game like Far Cry 2 is worth the price, just wait six months. Any body with half a brain about video games should be able to tell 6 months after a game has been released whether or not they will enjoy it. So why not wait? Well as spuddyt said it's all about greed. Just like game companies are greedy and over hype bad games to increase sales, greedy gamers can't wait to get their hands on the newest titles. I'll admit that I'm guilty of this too as I rushed out to buy FC2 last week and was a little disappointed.
Pirates just want to be greedy without risking the consequences, which in this case would be paying for a game that wasn't really worth it. So in the end it's no different than if you just pirated a game simply because you didn't want to pay for it. You got what you wanted, to be able to play the game on the day of release, without having to pay for it. So what's the difference between you and the guy who just flat says they pirated the game because they didn't feel like paying?
October 31, 2008 4:31:36 PM

That my intent was to get the game if it was good enough (especially since the SecuROM wasn't as horrible as EA), but I was extremely disappointed by it. I didn't finish the game, in fact I didn't put more than what I could bear in playtime.

If you're making a game and you are famous worldwide for making complete and utter crap, then the least you can do is put a decent demo. There'd be no difference if I played it now or in 6 months, because the reviews would be the same and the game would still be the same (sadly...). The only good thing that came out of it is that I crossed it off my Must-Buy game list, which is getting pretty crowded as it is.
October 31, 2008 4:45:41 PM

emp said:
That my intent was to get the game if it was good enough (especially since the SecuROM wasn't as horrible as EA), but I was extremely disappointed by it. I didn't finish the game, in fact I didn't put more than what I could bear in playtime.

If you're making a game and you are famous worldwide for making complete and utter crap, then the least you can do is put a decent demo. There'd be no difference if I played it now or in 6 months, because the reviews would be the same and the game would still be the same (sadly...). The only good thing that came out of it is that I crossed it off my Must-Buy game list, which is getting pretty crowded as it is.


No matter how you sugar coat it, YOU USED THEIR PROPERTY. They made it, and you 'stole' it, if even for a brief amount of time. Without paying a single dime. YOU OWE THEM SOMETHING FOR USING THEIR PRODUCT. MAN UP :non: 
October 31, 2008 4:57:35 PM

I am all for anti-piracy, but if companies keep releasing crap with no demos, then I have to be smart about my money, because I don't even have a job right now (full time student).

For this holiday season alone I already bought Left 4 Dead and will be buying COD:WaW (Despite it being from treyarch, I'm taking up on everyone's word that it is basically COD4 on WW2).

If you want to take the high moral stance while you bank account is being pilfered by companies like Ubisoft releasing this kind of crap (EA is not on this list this time around, they actually released a GOOD game), then be my guest. If you want to label me as a pirate, then call me how you please, because game shopping shouldn't be a russian roulette where you have to "guess" what game you want.

If you want an example, last year I wasn't really considering on buying UT3, but they released a demo that I had so much fun with that I decided to pay for the entire game, even though I have only played it twice since then.

My point being is, if you have a reputation for making junk (like Ubisoft does) and you want budget-conscious customers to pay for your games , PROVE TO THEM that you're not selling junk. Companies like Blizzard (Starcraft 2 and Diablo 3) and Valve (HL2 episodes, L4D, whatever future releases) are exempt from this kind of behavior because they have proven themselves with spotless track records, and even then they STILL release demos.

EDIT: As far as I know EA didn't release a demo for Dead Space, so I went and downloaded it, played through the first chapter and loved it, afterwards I went to get the game despite it having such intrusive copy protection.
October 31, 2008 5:04:41 PM

emp said:
I am all for anti-piracy, but if companies keep releasing crap with no demos, then I have to be smart about my money, because I don't even have a job right now (full time student).

For this holiday season alone I already bought Left 4 Dead and will be buying COD:WaW (Despite it being from treyarch, I'm taking up on everyone's word that it is basically COD4 on WW2).

If you want to take the high moral stance while you bank account is being pilfered by companies like Ubisoft releasing this kind of crap (EA is not on this list this time around, they actually released a GOOD game), then be my guest. If you want to label me as a pirate, then call me how you please, because game shopping shouldn't be a russian roulette where you have to "guess" what game you want.

If you want an example, last year I wasn't really considering on buying UT3, but they released a demo that I had so much fun with that I decided to pay for the entire game, even though I have only played it twice since then.

My point being is, if you have a reputation for making junk (like Ubisoft does) and you want budget-conscious customers to pay for your games , PROVE TO THEM that you're not selling junk. Companies like Blizzard (Starcraft 2 and Diablo 3) and Valve (HL2 episodes, L4D, whatever future releases) are exempt from this kind of behavior because they have proven themselves with spotless track records, and even then they STILL release demos.

EDIT: As far as I know EA didn't release a demo for Dead Space, so I went and downloaded it, played through the first chapter and loved it, afterwards I went to get the game despite it having such intrusive copy protection.



You really think you're a Saint because you actually forked up some cash for a game? Get over yourself. Exercise some self-control and patience, if you REALLY can't afford new games, then buy them used or when they are 20$ And/Or get a job during the summer and set some cash aside for games when they come out. I for one am a full time student, AND work 25-35 hours a week. I am starting to see that the REAL bonafide root cause of piracy is sheer laziness and ease of access.
October 31, 2008 5:04:55 PM

Reviews are hardly the only way to determine whether a game is worth buying or not. Maybe pre-release there is much less to go on, but if after 6 months on the market (in reality much less time is need) you can not determine whether or not a game is worth buying then that is solely due to your own incompetence.
The whole demo thing is just another straw man to use as an excuse to not have to pay for games. There are tons of examples of good demos for games that game up way short. A lot of people would argue that the Crysis demo oversold that game because of the short and weak ending. And plenty of people pirated that game to because they said the demo wasn't truly representative of the game.
The list of excuses just seems to go on and on. I just wish more people would be honest and say "Ya, piracy is easy and with no real consequences so I do it to avoid paying for something I otherwise should." Period, end of justification.
October 31, 2008 5:06:36 PM

Quote:
I am all for anti-piracy, but if companies keep releasing crap with no demos, then I have to be smart about my money, because I don't even have a job right now (full time student).

Hey I'm anti-domestic violence but sometimes my wife gets on my nerves so I have to smack her around.
October 31, 2008 6:25:27 PM

The first day I installed Far Cry 2, there was a problem with their UK activation servers, so I couldn't activate for most of the day. It annoyed me that a game company can introduce these anti piracy methods, which punish the wrong people and that being the legitimate buyer. I also dislike the fact that more games are being limited to a certain amount of Installs until the legitimate buyer has to call a help line for re-activation. This happened to me with FSX and I had to call Microsoft. Legitimate buyers are being abused, while the pirates cracked these games long ago and then playing these games for nothing easily :fou:  Also add to the fact that these security features may cause compatibility problems further down the line when new operating systems are released. I've have a few older security protected games that wont install in Vista because of this

I don't have the answers to game piracy, but surely there's gotta be a better way to tackle this?

October 31, 2008 6:42:19 PM

I believe that it is generally attested that DRM is utterly pointless for stopping piracy - even those die hard against can search thepiratebay and find a cracked version of any game with DRM on day 1 of release. All DRM achieves in terms of piracy, is giving people an excuse, so when they are "called out" they can just say "well I wouldn't have done it if they hadn't put securom on it" - whether that is true or not is neither here nor there, they can justify it to themselves in those terms quite easily.
October 31, 2008 7:14:47 PM

Why do people pirate? Because they can! :kaola: 

Why is the sky blue? Why do you need to eat and take a crap? :sarcastic: 

There is no justification for it, and none are necessary. No amount of ranting or drms can stop it. It's a fact of life in the information age. Accept it as such. :p 
October 31, 2008 7:15:35 PM

Dave will download everything as long as it doesn't take much effort and he has more time than money, which seems to be the case for many 20-somethings.

Maybe your "friend" will get kicked out of his parents' house eventually and ask to stay on your couch. You'll never get him out if you do, my parents have a brother of my sister's ex boyfriend living in their living room. He seems to always be just on the verge of getting a job and getting out, but it never happens.

Do try to limit the number of leeches you take on as friends. They can get expensive quickly.

As for DRM, I despise it and know I could get the games without it, but really prefer not to at all. I know that no matter how much I like the game, I'll be unwilling to buy it, so I'm just blissfully ignorant and assume all titles with SecureROM suck, regardless of reviews and people's talk.
October 31, 2008 7:43:20 PM

robwright said:
Dave needs to get a f---ing job or find a less expensive hobby.


What's ironic to me is that PC gaming really isn't all that expensive in the grand scheme of things, if you think about it. Here's how I look at it: the parts to a top-of-the-line PC at any given moment in time cost what, $1,200? Then say you buy one PC game per month at full price, which amounts to $600. So in this case if you were to buy a new awesome computer EVERY year, as well as buy a new game EVERY month (which I think is a lot more than most people buy), you're still spending less than $2,000/year. Now, even if you only make $30,000/year, if PC gaming is your #1 hobby, isn't $2,000 a pretty small price tag?

PC games to me are expensive up front...heck, $50 for just a CD/DVD...but if you buy the right games and continue to play them, the cost is well worth it. Look at Oblivion and Fallout 3 - I think both of these games have probably $150 worth of content in them, so the value is well worth it. Countless hours could be spent on either game, and for such a small price.

I bought the parts for my PC 1 1/2 yrs. ago, and probably won't upgrade it again for another year or so. It was $1,300 including the monitor and everything. I know I've mentioned on here before that I pirate games on occasion, but the games I spend the most time playing are the ones I have the hard copies of, like Starcraft, Titan Quest, Oblivion, and recently Fallout 3. To play those 4 games to their fullest extent definitely takes AT LEAST a year, if not several years, and the combined amount of money spent on those was a whopping...wait for it...$101. A hundred bucks for several hundred hours' worth of gameplay? That sure is a heck of a lot cheaper than going to movies, or fine dining, or playing in a band, or whatever else.

I think we PC gamers have it lucky where price is concerned...the only work we have to do is figure out which games to buy, to make sure we do get the value that makes this hobby relatively cheap!
October 31, 2008 7:45:04 PM

Quote:
Classic argument.

However, this is another thread going down the same endless path, let's not forget. There are no physical objects involved and you can't steal data because it doesn't exist :sarcastic: 

??? I don't think you fully read the one sentance I wrote. I'm not sure what endless path you are talking about when I simply point out the hypocrasy of someone saying they are against something but still do it when it suits their needs. I'm not here to give anybody moral instructions, but it drives me nuts when people try to play both sides of the fence that way. I'd rather somebody just come out and say that they pirate games because it's what benifits them most and they really don't care if it hurts the gaming industry. I can at least respect somebody taking an honest position like that.
October 31, 2008 10:09:00 PM

The economics of piracy are pretty simple really.

It is a function of ethics vs a ratio of money and free time. If you have more time than money then you need much higher ethics in order to overcome the desire to pirate and this is exacerbated by the fact that you couldn't honestly afford the hobby so it is money that they wouldn't be getting from you anyway.

As your supply of money overtakes your supply of free time, you are more prone to legally purchase games because you have the money to spare and don't have a void in your day that needs to be filled and cannot be with just a handful of purchases. At this point the Ethics really kick in. Those who are fairly devoid of ethics will happily continue to pirate despite the disposable income and possibly even revel in the idea that they have not purchased a single game since Duke Nukem 3D. Those who have even a modicum of ethics are far more likely to purchase the games they want.

DRM kind of throws a monkey wrench into the works. Unacceptable levels of DRM will just give another excuse to those with more time than money, but it is what happens to those who have more money than time that is more interesting.

There are those who would not normally pirate but will because they won't pay for Securom 8 games. There are those who just accept that they will never play RA3 or Spore and boycott without banning. And there are the ones who lack the fortitude to stick to their guns and boycott, but also have too much ethics to pirate who will buy the game.
October 31, 2008 10:21:38 PM

infornography42 said:
The economics of piracy are pretty simple really.

It is a function of ethics vs a ratio of money and free time. If you have more time than money then you need much higher ethics in order to overcome the desire to pirate and this is exacerbated by the fact that you couldn't honestly afford the hobby so it is money that they wouldn't be getting from you anyway.

As your supply of money overtakes your supply of free time, you are more prone to legally purchase games because you have the money to spare and don't have a void in your day that needs to be filled and cannot be with just a handful of purchases. At this point the Ethics really kick in. Those who are fairly devoid of ethics will happily continue to pirate despite the disposable income and possibly even revel in the idea that they have not purchased a single game since Duke Nukem 3D. Those who have even a modicum of ethics are far more likely to purchase the games they want.

DRM kind of throws a monkey wrench into the works. Unacceptable levels of DRM will just give another excuse to those with more time than money, but it is what happens to those who have more money than time that is more interesting.

There are those who would not normally pirate but will because they won't pay for Securom 8 games. There are those who just accept that they will never play RA3 or Spore and boycott without banning. And there are the ones who lack the fortitude to stick to their guns and boycott, but also have too much ethics to pirate who will buy the game.


Actually, free time is also on the side of pirates. It's faster and easier to download a game instead of running to the store and buy it. You can go on with your life as it downloads, instead of being stuck in traffic. Not to mention time spent trying to troubleshooting conflicting drms. So if you're rich, but lacks time, pirating is still more attractive. It's only if you're rich *and* have nothing better to do... :na: 
October 31, 2008 10:25:39 PM

dagger said:
Actually, free time is also on the side of pirates. It's faster and easier to download a game instead of running to the store and buy it. You can go on with your life as it downloads, instead of being stuck in traffic. Not to mention time spent trying to troubleshooting conflicting drms. So if you're rich, but lacks time, pirating is still more attractive. It's only if you're rich *and* have nothing better to do... :na: 


Actually, that does not hold up to scrutiny. The reason why is that you can spend even less time ordering the game online from gamestop or Amazon. If your time is so strapped that the 10 minutes it takes to get to the store and back is going to be a problem for you then you are not stressed for things to fill that time either and you can easily wait the couple of days for it to be shipped to you. Also you can preorder and often have it waiting for you at home the day it comes out.

I had considered that as a possible factor and rejected it.
October 31, 2008 10:41:30 PM

infornography42 said:
Actually, that does not hold up to scrutiny. The reason why is that you can spend even less time ordering the game online from gamestop or Amazon. If your time is so strapped that the 10 minutes it takes to get to the store and back is going to be a problem for you then you are not stressed for things to fill that time either and you can easily wait the couple of days for it to be shipped to you. Also you can preorder and often have it waiting for you at home the day it comes out.

I had considered that as a possible factor and rejected it.


Going through the ordering, preordering, picking up at store (the drive takes more than 10 minutes, since most people don't live right next to a store), or picking it at UPS warehouse because you weren't home during the daytime they delivers (if you, you know, go to work or school)... :sarcastic: 

Trust me, it takes a lot longer than typing a phrase into a torrent search engine, click "search" button, and then "download" button. A few keystrokes, 2 mouse clicks, 5 seconds flat. Go on about your life, come back after a few hours and see the game materialize on your hdd. :p 
October 31, 2008 10:49:43 PM

Annisman said:
It boils my blood to pay 100$+for these two excellent games, and then associate with someone who I know has gotten these titles for free, has hurt the gaming industy, and acts so coy about the whole thing.

Not to mention, I built his entire computer from scratch over the summer, which was a 1200$+ build. I did it for free, welcoming another PC gamer to our great ranks.



Has Dave really hurt the gaming industry?

X$ (Dave's graphics card) = (X - Y)$ for nVIDIA/AMD/Intel = (Y - Z)$ for game companies



One possible very efficient way to combat piracy would be to increase X in the equation and drop the price of all new high-budget graphically demanding games to 0$. Imagine if all new next gen blockbuster PC games would be completely free but all new graphics cards from nVIDIA and AMD would cost 100-300$ more than now. The money would still flow from consumers to the game companies through graphics cards manufacturers (Asus, MSI, Saphire etc) and graphics chip companies (nVIDIA/AMD). Of course, graphics card companies would gain enormous power over game companies because they would basically become the contractors of the game distributors, but they would still need to cherish game companies to keep consumers interested in upgrading their graphics cards every now and then. Piracy would decrease by 100% because games would be free anyway. This new alliance could include AMD, nVIDIA, Intel and all of the game companies which work on really expensive and graphically demanding blockbuster games. This type of new order in the industry could be real considering how many prominent game developers have already allied under the wings of EA, Blizard/Activision and a few other distributors.

:bounce: 

October 31, 2008 10:58:06 PM

dagger said:
Going through the ordering, preordering, picking up at store (the drive takes more than 10 minutes, since most people don't live right next to a store), or picking it at UPS warehouse because you weren't home during the daytime they delivers (if you, you know, go to work or school)... :sarcastic: 

Trust me, it takes a lot longer than typing a phrase into a torrent search engine, click "search" button, and then "download" button. A few keystrokes, 2 mouse clicks, 5 seconds flat. Go on about your life, come back after a few hours and see the game materialize on your hdd. :p 


That is a strawman. First, most delivery people are too lazy to lug the box back to the truck and they just leave it there on the porch. I've been a bit tempted to build a dump bin (similar to a mail drop off box) on my front porch with a note that deliveries can just be dropped off there to prevent possible theft.

Second, if they are that rich then they can afford to have a maid or a live at home wife who will pick up the package.

Lastly, there are tons of gamestops and electronics stores between work and home that I can stop at to pick up the game if I want. If you live in an urban environment then stopping at a game store while getting groceries or running errands is not a notable inconvenience.

Quite simply we are talking about differences in time spent that wouldn't matter to a new york hedge fund manager. Not a significant factor.
October 31, 2008 11:43:14 PM

infornography42 said:
That is a strawman. First, most delivery people are too lazy to lug the box back to the truck and they just leave it there on the porch. I've been a bit tempted to build a dump bin (similar to a mail drop off box) on my front porch with a note that deliveries can just be dropped off there to prevent possible theft.

Second, if they are that rich then they can afford to have a maid or a live at home wife who will pick up the package.

Lastly, there are tons of gamestops and electronics stores between work and home that I can stop at to pick up the game if I want. If you live in an urban environment then stopping at a game store while getting groceries or running errands is not a notable inconvenience.

Quite simply we are talking about differences in time spent that wouldn't matter to a new york hedge fund manager. Not a significant factor.


UPS/FedEx guys should not have left packages without sign. They don't do that here in the northeast. Fired... :p 

You're going to hire a maid to pick up your games? Are you a hedge fund manager? :na: 

Putting the game's name into a torrent search engine and click a button takes 5 seconds flat.

Even if it's along the way, you'll still have to stop, a parking space, and go into the store, look through it, which may or may not have the game you want in stock. And not everyone has game shops conveniently located along their way to work/grocery shopping.

Admit it already. Doing the right thing takes extra, while doing the easy thing is... well, easy. It's like everything else in life. :kaola: 
November 1, 2008 1:23:49 AM

Actually ordering from Steam with a paypal account is quicker than even torrenting games. I was scared the first time I used it, because I hadn't noticed that the purchase was finished.
November 1, 2008 4:10:28 AM

Morton said:
Has Dave really hurt the gaming industry?

X$ (Dave's graphics card) = (X - Y)$ for nVIDIA/AMD/Intel = (Y - Z)$ for game companies



One possible very efficient way to combat piracy would be to increase X in the equation and drop the price of all new high-budget graphically demanding games to 0$. Imagine if all new next gen blockbuster PC games would be completely free but all new graphics cards from nVIDIA and AMD would cost 100-300$ more than now. The money would still flow from consumers to the game companies through graphics cards manufacturers (Asus, MSI, Saphire etc) and graphics chip companies (nVIDIA/AMD). Of course, graphics card companies would gain enormous power over game companies because they would basically become the contractors of the game distributors, but they would still need to cherish game companies to keep consumers interested in upgrading their graphics cards every now and then. Piracy would decrease by 100% because games would be free anyway. This new alliance could include AMD, nVIDIA, Intel and all of the game companies which work on really expensive and graphically demanding blockbuster games. This type of new order in the industry could be real considering how many prominent game developers have already allied under the wings of EA, Blizard/Activision and a few other distributors.

:bounce: 


To answer your question. Yes he HAS hurt the indsutry, because your clever (but never going to happen) system has not yet been implemented. And, to be quite honest, your idea sounds alot like Socialism/Communism of the graphics cards/games market. Neat idea, but it would water down the PC games and hardware.
November 1, 2008 4:13:13 AM

dagger said:
Actually, free time is also on the side of pirates. It's faster and easier to download a game instead of running to the store and buy it. You can go on with your life as it downloads, instead of being stuck in traffic. Not to mention time spent trying to troubleshooting conflicting drms. So if you're rich, but lacks time, pirating is still more attractive. It's only if you're rich *and* have nothing better to do... :na: 


Am I the only one here who has never had one single problem with some kind of DRM Conflict??? And I have installed and played over 30+ games.

I'm not saying that these problems don't occur for us honest buyers, but, how often does it really happen? Might be one of those myths started by the pirates.
November 1, 2008 10:02:53 AM

Annisman said:
Am I the only one here who has never had one single problem with some kind of DRM Conflict??? And I have installed and played over 30+ games.

I'm not saying that these problems don't occur for us honest buyers, but, how often does it really happen? Might be one of those myths started by the pirates.

I had my first one recently - crysis warhead (actually on my brother's computer) I had the disc in the drive, but he'd taken the box with him to university, securom pops up asking for proof i'm legally using this, on funzies i can't = no game
November 1, 2008 11:16:45 AM

Annisman said:
To answer your question. Yes he HAS hurt the indsutry, because your clever (but never going to happen) system has not yet been implemented. And, to be quite honest, your idea sounds alot like Socialism/Communism of the graphics cards/games market. Neat idea, but it would water down the PC games and hardware.



I do realise that the system would be flawed. :cry: 
On a serious note, a few months ago Todd Hollenshed or someone else from ID Software did actually mention in an interview about piracy that graphics card companies act somewhat as "free riders" in the issue. With this he meant that for some gamers the appeal to buy a mid-range or a high-range graphics card for PC is that later they can save money by downloading cracked games for free.

We can assume that if file sharing and piracy were completely removed, sales of high-range graphics cards would decrease and development of next gen GPUs would slow down. Moreover, even more people would abandon PC and switch to consoles.
November 1, 2008 12:42:53 PM

I started out my tenure as a PC gamer as a "Downloader/Freeloader", My first build had WinME that i did not purchase(it came on a computer i bought from a neighbor and i dont think he paid for it either, i used it on the first build), And most of my games I got from friends. from there it was hard to justify paying for games when I never had before. We all played games online with each other, that's when I started buying games, because unique CD Keys were needed for most of them. I still downloaded a game here or there, but my MP games I was buying.

I started playing America's Army, joined a clan, didn't buy any games or download any either because that's all I played. joined another AA clan that when released got into BF2, I bought it, and have been purchasing my games since.

I think what really changed my way of looking at games/software was when I started beta testing and interacting with the Dev's, most of them really put a lot of work in their games and I couldn't justify denying them being rewarded for their work.

I also think morals come into play as well, apparently a lot of people in society lack them or atleast have distorted morals.

The way I look at it now, is: If i do a job, I want payed/compensated for my work. So I can assume others do as well, and I would be a huge hypocrite if I didn't compensate someone for their work.
November 1, 2008 12:53:27 PM

I should mention I have a "Dave" too, but he has a well paying job(compared to me), and has less free time, yet still doesn't purchase his games....sadly he was the person that got me into PC games and all my games at that time I got from him(he actually bought them then). He's one with distorted morals, he has very high morals with everything except games and software.....oh and Satellite TV too.
November 2, 2008 12:32:55 AM

the "I can't afford it" argument is bs anyway. If you can't afford a $10-$50 game then you shouldn't be playing computer in the first place.
November 2, 2008 1:41:24 AM

if you have drm problems with a game and you google for info on how to fix it, you will stumble across p2p site that has a DRM free version of the game 100% of the time

when DRM turns a gamer into a pirate then it hurts the entire industry

99% of drm is cracked within 1 day of a game release, drm has no ability to boost sales. if a gamer waited months for a game, they can surely wait 1 more day for a DRM free copy

the gaming industry wont get money out of a pirate. but they can get money from a paying customer. but if any of the companies do annoying stuff like add annoying DRM to turn the user into a pirate in order to avoid the DRM then the gaming industry looses a paying customer

the reason why your "Dave" didn't pay for the other game is because drm has already turned him into a pirate



prices also contribute to piracy

most people hate spending $200 for a game console then $300 for 4-5 games


this is the business model that causes many small businesses to die out

and the reason why small businesses go crazy over a walmart opening up near them

a small business owner (like the game companies) focus on getting the maximum profit per item sold while the larger store will focus on minimal profits per item sold but the lower prices will cause so many people to shop there they their net profits will be billions of dollars

and because greed clouds the mind, they are unable to get past their "i have to charge this much to stay in business" mentality instead of thinking, "I get so few customers so I have to charge this much but this is stupid, the reason why i don't get many customers is because I charge too much, if i charge less, I will get more customers and will net more profits "


many people are willing to take a risk with 5-10 dollars but not with 55-60 dollars so they are more likely to download the game to see if it is good, and the problem with this is it causes a mental instability
they will say, if the game is good I will buy it but they will convince them self that "oh I'm not buying this game now, because the sandstone texture located in the basement of one of the houses behind a pile of boxes was not completely seamless and this made the game bad" and they will use that reason to not buy the game

best solutions

remove DRM so legit users wont be forced into or tempted to move to piracy in order to avoid the annoying DRM

Lower prices so buying games will feel more like buying a game that looks fun and not like buying a house

high prices cause unrealistic expectations

walk up to a large banker or powerful global business owner and propose a investment deal where they invest $10 for you to start a company and they will get 50% of your profits, they will give you the money with out thinking about it, but if you request that they invest 50 million in you then you will have to prove that your plan will be 100% guaranteed to work and you will have to prove it in multiple ways and if it fails to meet any expectations by even the slightest bit then you will be kicked out faster than photons traveling through a black hole
November 2, 2008 1:55:52 AM

Now days i dont think anything is wrong with pirating for 1 simple reason...... The game just might not run on your PC! Bioshock and Fallout 3 DONT WORK on my PC! im glad i didnt put $50 down on fallout 3, i bought Bioshock and couldnt get past the first mission w/o a constant crash. So now i pirate games to make sure if they work, far cry 2 works just fine i will be buying a new copy within a week, as for fallout 3 and the THOUSANDS of other people that cant get it to work.........NEVER BUYING IT TILL ITS FIXED!

Pirating is the last thing killing PC games, you can pirate xbox360 and PS3 games JUST as easily. BUT what really is killing the PC games is:

1. **** HACKERS! Cant stand playing online games and someone cheats than they say their pro and call you a noob.
2. THE **** GAME NOT WORKING PERIOD! why would i pay $50 for a non refundable game that doesn't even work?
3. THE GAME SUCKS! lets face it Crysis sucked, looks good on a super computer but wow you get like 6 guns to pick from, its big time repetitive.
4. This is where piracy comes into play, all the above hurt alot more than piracy.


ALSO! What about 3rd world countries, they cant afford $50 for a game, at $5 a day thats 10 days of pay and 10 days of no food, WE ARE NO BETTER THAN ANY OTHER BEING, just because we have money doesn't make us better than someone in a 3rd world country, they deserve commodities and luxuries just as much as we do.
November 2, 2008 3:04:58 AM

610380,44,110104 said:
Now days i dont think anything is wrong with pirating for 1 simple reason...... The game just might not run on your PC! Bioshock and Fallout 3 DONT WORK on my PC! im glad i didnt put $50 down on fallout 3, i bought Bioshock and couldnt get past the first mission w/o a constant crash. So now i pirate games to make sure if they work, far cry 2 works just fine i will be buying a new copy within a week, as for fallout 3 and the THOUSANDS of other people that cant get it to work.........NEVER BUYING IT TILL ITS FIXED!

Pirating is the last thing killing PC games, you can pirate xbox360 and PS3 games JUST as easily. BUT what really is killing the PC games is:

1. **** HACKERS! Cant stand playing online games and someone cheats than they say their pro and call you a noob.
2. THE **** GAME NOT WORKING PERIOD! why would i pay $50 for a non refundable game that doesn't even work?
3. THE GAME SUCKS! lets face it Crysis sucked, looks good on a super computer but wow you get like 6 guns to pick from, its big time repetitive.
4. This is where piracy comes into play, all the above hurt alot more than piracy.


ALSO! What about 3rd world countries, they cant afford $50 for a game, at $5 a day thats 10 days of pay and 10 days of no food, WE ARE NO BETTER THAN ANY OTHER BEING, just because we have money doesn't make us better than someone in a 3rd world country, they deserve commodities and luxuries just as much as we do.[/
quotemsg]

You can't be serious. 3rd world countries have a lot more to be worried about than PC gaming. Like, oh, I don't know...not starving to death/getting shot by the Karen Rebels. And they have just as good entertainment as we do. If you grow up without computers, you don't miss them. Their wheel and stick is prolly just as fun to them as you or I playing Fallout 3.
November 2, 2008 11:59:30 AM

Quote:
Their wheel and stick is prolly just as fun to them as you or I playing Fallout 3.

That's so true. My in-laws brought an AIDS orphan back from Zimbabwe to live here for 6 months last year. It amazed me what it took to entertain this 14 year old who never knew anything but severe poverty compared to my 7 year old who has grown up with video games as just a part of life. Just having the free time not having to worry about where your next meal would come from was more of a luxury for him than my son could every get out of the thousands of dollars worth of gaming crap he takes for granted.

The point being that trying to compare piracy to some sort of noble Robin Hood-esq defense of the poor is just retarded. Not only that but using that warped type of thinking to justify your own actions makes you more greedy and selfish than anything else.
November 2, 2008 1:31:18 PM

purplerat said:
Quote:
Their wheel and stick is prolly just as fun to them as you or I playing Fallout 3.

That's so true. My in-laws brought an AIDS orphan back from Zimbabwe to live here for 6 months last year. It amazed me what it took to entertain this 14 year old who never knew anything but severe poverty compared to my 7 year old who has grown up with video games as just a part of life. Just having the free time not having to worry about where your next meal would come from was more of a luxury for him than my son could every get out of the thousands of dollars worth of gaming crap he takes for granted.

The point being that trying to compare piracy to some sort of noble Robin Hood-esq defense of the poor is just retarded. Not only that but using that warped type of thinking to justify your own actions makes you more greedy and selfish than anything else.



LOL exactly, post of the year.

This is going in my sig.
November 2, 2008 2:57:19 PM

doomsdaydave11 said:
the "I can't afford it" argument is bs anyway. If you can't afford a $10-$50 game then you shouldn't be playing computer in the first place.


Where can you find a new game for $10 those days? It's more like $50 average.

Anyway, it's not about not being able to afford it, but rather don't want to afford it. If you can get it for free for less hassle, why pay money to jump through hoops and deal with drms?

The "morals" of the matter is irrelevant. No amount of ranting and finger-pointing will do a thing. Those preachy do-gooders are wasting their breath, while looking like over inflated windbags. Oh, the evils of piracy! :na: 

Measures like abandoning drms, not using disk checks, decreasing price, providing free demos, create more convenient online distribution will help decrease piracy by making legitimate copies more attractive. Although piracy will never stop because there'll always be people around that would rather not pay, so long as they can, and in the internet age, they always can.

It's beginning to look like grandmas complaining about the sex and violence on TV, then preaching the family values of the good'ol times. It's the internet age, get with the changing times, adapt or perish.

Well, at least some small companies are adapting, instead of perishing. Stardock is still small, but is growing pretty fast those days.
http://www.stardock.com/about/newsitem.asp?id=1095
November 2, 2008 2:59:24 PM

i pirated one game in my life, oblivion. i did not like oblivion very much (though i liked playing around with mods) combat was boring. but since then i got a job, bought a new laptop and bought around 6-7 games. the only reason i didnt buy oblivion originally was because i didnt have the money to do so. (i destroyed the cd and deleted the files btw) 50 dollars takes me 1 4 hour shift to make, so why not.

the only reason i wont buy a game now, besides hating it is if it has an activation limit. i have 3 computers at home and im saving money to build a new desktop to be my main gaming rig (which i will be upgrading frequently) and dont wanna be bothered with only a few activations.
November 2, 2008 3:04:03 PM

Quote:
your scum, kill yourself.


Yeah, we should burn them at the stakes. :D 
November 2, 2008 3:25:20 PM

Quote:
Nah, they are not worth going to jail for, assisted suicide maybe.


Their organs should be harvested for the decent god/drm fearing gamers and hard working entertainment industry executives. :whistle: 
November 2, 2008 5:09:14 PM

The ironic thing is that I hear the people who advocate piracy, or at the very least are piracy apologist, complain about gaming MORE than anybody else. But of course they would never dare to think that maybe piracy is causing problems in the gaming industry. Every second spent thinking about how much piracy does or doesn't affect sales or how to stop it is a second not spent making games better.
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