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Blizzard hands major private WOW servers DMCA.

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December 5, 2008 4:12:50 PM

Many a private servers have shutdown which include Wowscape, Toxic-WoW, burning wow, WoWGasm, Chaos Crusade, and WoW Fusion. Using an outside law firm targeting Softlayer hosted private servers. This however is a waste as blizzard can not take action against the emulation makers or database teams. Thus new servers will replace those taken down. I can only guess this is an attempted to boost Christmas sales due to timing. Due to blizzards high monthly cost these private servers wouldn't exist and until they change pricing it only furthers the problem.
http://www.conflictwarcraft.com/Dec3LtrtoSoftlayer.pdf

Up until now there has been only 2 open emulations for WOW. Mangos and arcemu currently can hold upwards of only a thousand players for an uptime of 2~10 hours. Wowscape which can hold upwards of 8 thousand players per realm due the emulator summit may see leaked code. Its own open source community may evolve and summit has uptimes of over 10 hours.
December 5, 2008 8:45:08 PM

Quote:
Due to blizzards high monthly cost these private servers wouldn't exist and until they change pricing it only furthers the problem.

I highly doubt monthly costs has anything to do with people playing on private WoW servers. People who play on these servers are doing so because they are the type of people who like to do that type of thing. Even if WoW was free they would still want to play on their own private servers and avoid Blizzard's altogether.

I agree that it's a little silly for Blizzard to go after them, but what the hey it's their money.
December 5, 2008 11:01:14 PM

purplerat said:
Quote:
Due to blizzards high monthly cost these private servers wouldn't exist and until they change pricing it only furthers the problem.

I highly doubt monthly costs has anything to do with people playing on private WoW servers. People who play on these servers are doing so because they are the type of people who like to do that type of thing. Even if WoW was free they would still want to play on their own private servers and avoid Blizzard's altogether.

I agree that it's a little silly for Blizzard to go after them, but what the hey it's their money.


currently it would cost over $74 just for the first month. That is the battle chest and the wotlk. For one year then adding $15 times 11 months a player would pay $165. $239 for one full year is crazy for this older game. Would you go to the theater and pay same price ever month to watch a single movie with only a few extra minute added?

No they play private because they are addicted but can no longer pay or justify the monthly cost.

They wouldn't play on private servers that crash ever 2~4 hours if retail was free. They get very pissed having to put up with all the bugs and broken quests on private servers. Some play private to only go back to retail for the expansions. Most have purchased the game and private servers only keep them addicted so they will return during expansions. I wouldn't lump those playing private servers in a group as thieves if thats your stereotype.

Blizzard should look at a more reasonable $3~5 monthly fee with maybe a $8~10 vip, no waiting line, monthly.
December 6, 2008 2:16:41 AM

Personally I don't think WoW's expensive. For $15 a month I get more game time than I do out of $20+ pc console games that last about 3 weeks before feeling old and tired, at which point I go out and buy another game. With WoW, any other pc or console game lasts at least a month, so I can very happily justify paying for WoW.

As for Private servers, part of it's the same reason people use cheats in games, download trainers, things like that; to be able to breeze through quickly and easily. Private servers usually let you go over the level cap and acquire items far better than what's available normally, giving the player a feeling of massive return for little investment, whereas on the official servers you have to spend a good amount of time to get better.

Bottom line is some people are just too lazy to play the game and want quick and easy routes to the end. Others do it to gloat about huge achievements to friends that play retail who couldn't hope to achieve the same. And then, of course, some just don't want to spend any money. That last group probably downloads games on a regular basis anyway, why pay when you can get it free?
December 6, 2008 2:40:02 AM

Get a job children. $15 a month is not a lot of money. That's .50 a day. To put that in terms of a paycheck that means showing up to work 5 minutes early every day if you make minimum wage.

Lowering the cost would ruin the game for us adults because servers would get swamped and like you said you would eventually have to pay more for a "VIP" account but the game would still suck due to overpopulation just like every other free/cheap MMO.

I do agree with Kraynor that private servers are more about cheats, hacks, getting to see end game content etc. Of all the people I know that play WoW, which is quite a few, nobody has ever suggest playing on a private server because the game cost too much. But friends of mine have suggested putting one together for the above listed reasons.
December 6, 2008 3:08:07 AM

Just to add another point that occured to me while on guild chat...

Private servers miss out on 1 huge aspect of WoW - the community in game, and those that spawn around it. By that, I mean sites like ElitistJerks, and the official WoW forums. Personlly I've had more fun in game because of people I've met on these sites, and have built up a good circle of friends in game through encounters on the forums.

I'll even give the extreme example and say some people have even ended up with a marriage over meeting people in game, and that's their choice. I wouldn't get that deeply into the game, but some people do.
December 6, 2008 11:01:46 AM

Kraynor said:
Just to add another point that occured to me while on guild chat...

Private servers miss out on 1 huge aspect of WoW - the community in game, and those that spawn around it. By that, I mean sites like ElitistJerks, and the official WoW forums. Personlly I've had more fun in game because of people I've met on these sites, and have built up a good circle of friends in game through encounters on the forums.

I'll even give the extreme example and say some people have even ended up with a marriage over meeting people in game, and that's their choice. I wouldn't get that deeply into the game, but some people do.

Sorry to point this out but all these good things occurs on private servers. You can even see pics of wedding performed on private servers. The servers have there forums and many of the guilds have there own sites. Only the blizzlike realms that hackers get reported get large populations. Check out the top 100 private servers and link to there sites. Those 100 sites easily support a population of 5 million.

Hackers, bots, and gold farms have all had there days on retail and continue to play. Power levelers and gold farmers continue to sale on retail. All the bad things you throw at private server also occurred on retail.

Point is don't rock it till you tried it. These servers are well funded by players paying one time $50 for vip which gives teleport or the blizzcon items. Some private servers gives levels and or gold for donations but those are the lower population servers. Population takes away from those servers that give out any over powered items.

Does population take way from those retail servers that have power levelers and gold farmers? I would count this as massive return for little investment and to be able to breeze through quickly and easily,

@purplerat
Only a child wouldn't understand that $15, in some country's, is pay for a year. In the USA only a child wouldn't understand that is a car payment or a house payment. Given the current state of the housing market I can see now that funneling your money out in low payments put most Americans in trouble on the big ones. Have you heard that when an adult give up childish things. Stop your stereotyping because it only makes you look childish.

Understand with a much high population blizzard ends up making more and can have more servers. More servers the better deal they can get on hosting. What about the extra box sets they will sale for this higher population.

How many children are playing on runescape for $5 and what about microsoft ads on wow? Is blizzard going to cut prices due to forcing players to look at these ads? Currently it would cost a new player more than when it was cutting edge graphics over 2 years ago.

Point is they shouldn't have waste stock holders money on lawyers and just make there game more attractively priced.
December 6, 2008 12:58:42 PM

Quote:
@purplerat
Only a child wouldn't understand that $15, in some country's, is pay for a year. In the USA only a child wouldn't understand that is a car payment or a house payment. Given the current state of the housing market I can see now that funneling your money out in low payments put most Americans in trouble on the big ones. Have you heard that when an adult give up childish things. Stop your stereotyping because it only makes you look childish.

If you only make $15 a year, or if $15 is the difference between your car payment or housing payment, or food, heating education, etc. Then you should not be playing WoW in the first place. You shouldn't even be owning a PC that can run WoW or having a broadband internet access.

Gaming is a luxury. If $15 a month is too much then you don't get to enjoy it. There are plenty of free MMOs out there so why don't you play them if WoW is too expensive?

Quote:
Understand with a much high population blizzard ends up making more and can have more servers. More servers the better deal they can get on hosting. What about the extra box sets they will sale for this higher population.

Obviously you don't have a whole lot of business sense. There is always an upper limit to how many customers you can support. WoW already has a massive population. If they cut the cost to 1/3 then they would have to more than triple the population to make it worth while, and that would take a huge expansion of support resources (employees, servers etc) not knowing if they would even get that many new players. Even then they would still be making just about the same as they are now. So they would have to get several times more new players to justify a $5/month fee. Probably somewhere in the ballpark of 50 million+ subscribers.
Blizzard's not dumb enough to take that risk. It's a difficult edge to walk for any business. You either invest too much and get a poor return-on-investment or you under invest and get squashed by your own success. For Blizzard, why fix something that's not broke?

Quote:
Point is they shouldn't have waste stock holders money on lawyers and just make there game more attractively priced.

I agree, but in what possible way do the three preceding paragraphs do anything to support this point? If anything you contradict yourself by showing concern for the Blizzard share holders who would also stand to lose if WoW's fee was lowered.
December 6, 2008 1:27:18 PM

Quote:
If you only make $15 a year, or if $15 is the difference between your car payment or housing payment, or food, heating education, etc. Then you should not be playing WoW in the first place. You shouldn't even be owning a PC that can run WoW or having a broadband internet access.


Gaming is a luxury. If $15 a month is too much then you don't get to enjoy it. There are plenty of free MMOs out there so why don't you play them if WoW is too expensive?


LOL I was speaking of the cost of a year which that payment for one month for a car or house. I think $237 for one month is a reasonable payment even in the USA. Yup one free MMO is private WOW. A $30 PC single core, 512mb's of ram, and with any nvidia or amd integrated gpu will run WOW that company's will almost give way as junk.

Quote:
Obviously you don't have a whole lot of business sense. There is always an upper limit to how many customers you can support. WoW already has a massive population. If they cut the cost to 1/3 then they would have to more than triple the population to make it worth while, and that would take a huge expansion of support resources (employees, servers etc) not knowing if they would even get that many new players. Even then they would still be making just about the same as they are now. So they would have to get several times more new players to justify a $5/month fee. Probably somewhere in the ballpark of 50 million+ subscribers.
Blizzard's not dumb enough to take that risk. It's a difficult edge to walk for any business. You either invest too much and get a poor return-on-investment or you under invest and get squashed by your own success. For Blizzard, why fix something that's not broke?


Guess my BBA was given to me by your standards. That upper limit is the lowest elastic range while making a profit. No they don't have to sale 3 times to make up for 1/3 the price. They would get better deals on hosting with more servers. blizzard would sale more box sets and they would need not pay lawyers to just waste money.
Blizzard is dumb enough to risk a wow killer coming in with lower prices. They have nothing in development to combat a WOW killer. Its broke or they wouldn't be resorting to lawyers.
Quote:
I agree, but in what possible way do the three preceding paragraphs do anything to support this point? If anything you contradict yourself by showing concern for the Blizzard share holders who would also stand to lose if WoW's fee was lowered

Shareholders loss if high prices angers loyal customers. Shareholders loss if a WOW killer comes out for the same price and Blizzard has no time to lower price. Lowering the price now is better business sense to hold customers than waiting to late. Shareholders loss if Runescape increases there graphics to meet WOWs. The threats are there and real. If you dont see them in what i wrote then its you that doesn't have a lot of business sense.
December 6, 2008 3:28:25 PM

Quote:
Guess my BBA was given to me by your standards.

Nor did it come with much in the way of an English curriculum. Besides that, are you really arguing that Blizzard has a poor business model with WoW?

Ok Mr. BBA, look at this:


[From http://www.mmogchart.com/]

Where is Blizzard even going to get new players from? They could get a 100% market share and still not double their subscription base. Oh and by the way, this is a 4 year old game and still dominating unlike any other game in any other genre. Right now they are just printing money with this game and Blizzard itself is just waiting for WoW to start slipping so that they can release the next big MMO (Starcraft, Diablo, WoW2?). There's absolutely no reason from Blizzards perspective to lower subscription prices.
December 6, 2008 3:40:20 PM

@Elbert

They aren't wasting any cost on lawyers. They have had a legal team on retainer for years now. Additionally, in this very litigious era, coupled with the need to make sure that whatever they do in whatever foreign country they make the game available is legal, having lawyers on retainer and working is just necessary overhead.

Now lets dissect your statement that they can get discounts for more boxes in server farms. They already do that. Per live realm, how many boxes are involved? Hmm, let's see... Eastern Kingdoms, Kalimdor, and instances. During Vanilla, that's 3 instances of the game running simultaneously, rendering three separate areas. With the release of BC, that adds a fourth instance of the game, assuming that they maintained the BC instances and raids on the same machine/prog running vanilla instances/raids. Now with Lich King, that's yet another "box" per realm. Let's assume highest efficiency, and assign a separate quad processor and bus per realm instance. That means for every live realm, there are FIVE boxes rendering that realm. For every new realm they add, which they do regularly, they add another 5 machines to their bill, capable of handling all of the connections required. This doesn't even take into account the authentication servers which we know are separate machines.

That is a lot of machines. Seems they are already maxed out on whatever discounts they can get, otherwise it would just be cheaper for them to buy the server farm themselves.

Bottom line, TANSTAAFL. For the kids out there, There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. Anyone who thinks that the private servers were going to be left alone indefinitely don't get it. We're not talking about servers used by 6-30 people for the purpose of messing around, we're talking about setups involving a substantial number of people with websites and communities that, let's face it, were profiting from banner ads etc. Otherwise they wouldn't be doing it.
December 6, 2008 3:52:59 PM

Don't forget that Arenas and Battlegroups run on seperate servers to the 3 Azeroth ones, Outland, and I'm sure instances have more than 1 box given how many different instances there are and how many people would be in them at once, especially on nights that are regular guild raid nights, Friday or Saturday. I'd estimate upwards of 9 machines per realm.

Then there's the fact that they're not all housed together, so in every server farm you've also got technicians and electricity costs (which I'd imagine are pretty high because server farms are normally equipped with powerful cooling systems).

As far as the advertising deal goes, it's only going to be on the website, and probably non-invasive, and something that you'll get used to seeing. Most players won't even notice it.
December 6, 2008 3:54:32 PM

purplerat said:
Quote:
Guess my BBA was given to me by your standards.

Nor did it come with much in the way of an English curriculum. Besides that, are you really arguing that Blizzard has a poor business model with WoW?

Ok Mr. BBA, look at this:

http://mmogchart.com/Chart7_files/Subscriptions_12473_image001.png
[From http://www.mmogchart.com/]

Where is Blizzard even going to get new players from? They could get a 100% market share and still not double their subscription base. Oh and by the way, this is a 4 year old game and still dominating unlike any other game in any other genre. Right now they are just printing money with this game and Blizzard itself is just waiting for WoW to start slipping so that they can release the next big MMO (Starcraft, Diablo, WoW2?). There's absolutely no reason from Blizzards perspective to lower subscription prices.

Learned English on my own but my BBA did come with good business ethics. One being thou shout not rip of thy loyal customers.

Ok by that chart blizzard has no private server to sue so no reason for you to worry. LOL find a chart showing the box sales and see how many has left retail if you want a nice picture. By the way only 18 million gamers world wide. Think about that long and hard because that is blizzards 11 million players at %62.2. You fail at reading pie charts and understanding what they don't show.

Non subscription mmo's and mmo like games guildwars, NWN2, champions of norrath, and many more. Point is the pie chart is worthless to point out what population they could have.

Little history lesson. ID. soft did the same and look at them now. Diablo 3 will at most get those who still play diablo 2 so expect it to be a flop as the bar has been raised high. Those that left diablo 2 went to WOW so at best its going to cause WOW problems due to the free online play.b
December 6, 2008 4:01:40 PM

gryph667 said:
@Elbert

They aren't wasting any cost on lawyers. They have had a legal team on retainer for years now. Additionally, in this very litigious era, coupled with the need to make sure that whatever they do in whatever foreign country they make the game available is legal, having lawyers on retainer and working is just necessary overhead.

Now lets dissect your statement that they can get discounts for more boxes in server farms. They already do that. Per live realm, how many boxes are involved? Hmm, let's see... Eastern Kingdoms, Kalimdor, and instances. During Vanilla, that's 3 instances of the game running simultaneously, rendering three separate areas. With the release of BC, that adds a fourth instance of the game, assuming that they maintained the BC instances and raids on the same machine/prog running vanilla instances/raids. Now with Lich King, that's yet another "box" per realm. Let's assume highest efficiency, and assign a separate quad processor and bus per realm instance. That means for every live realm, there are FIVE boxes rendering that realm. For every new realm they add, which they do regularly, they add another 5 machines to their bill, capable of handling all of the connections required. This doesn't even take into account the authentication servers which we know are separate machines.

That is a lot of machines. Seems they are already maxed out on whatever discounts they can get, otherwise it would just be cheaper for them to buy the server farm themselves.

Bottom line, TANSTAAFL. For the kids out there, There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. Anyone who thinks that the private servers were going to be left alone indefinitely don't get it. We're not talking about servers used by 6-30 people for the purpose of messing around, we're talking about setups involving a substantial number of people with websites and communities that, let's face it, were profiting from banner ads etc. Otherwise they wouldn't be doing it.

Try adding realms as the number of servers need per realm is fixed. BTW one would think over 4 years the cost of server would have went down enough to over compensate.

Also important is the price of server transfers and that increase which would occur with higher populations.

Anyone that thinks blizzard can stop private server though litigations is poorly fooled. The only shot is attack the emulation makers which isnt possible.
December 6, 2008 4:11:01 PM

Quote:
Ok by that chart blizzard has no private server to sue so no reason for you to worry. LOL find a chart showing the box sales and see how many has left retail if you want a nice picture. By the way only 18 million gamers world wide. Think about that long and hard because that is blizzards 11 million players at %62.2. You fail at reading pie charts and understanding what they don't show.


With my highlighting:


But please explain to me what part of Blizzard creating a game, setting a price and then selling the game for that price goes against your "good business ethics"?
December 6, 2008 4:16:02 PM

Lawl. Just lawl. No they can't stop all of them. They can stop the ones that matter.

This is why business school grads suck. Research every company that has folded or is folding and you'll find an MBA that thought he knew what he was doing.

Next time admit TL;DR even if you're completely incapable of admitting "Didn't get it, too much logic."
December 6, 2008 4:22:49 PM

purplerat said:
Quote:
Ok by that chart blizzard has no private server to sue so no reason for you to worry. LOL find a chart showing the box sales and see how many has left retail if you want a nice picture. By the way only 18 million gamers world wide. Think about that long and hard because that is blizzards 11 million players at %62.2. You fail at reading pie charts and understanding what they don't show.


With my highlighting:
http://www.purplerat.net/images/graphics/linkpics/mmocharthighlightother.jpg

But please explain to me what part of Blizzard creating a game, setting a price and then selling the game for that price goes against your "good business ethics"?

private servers are not subcription so no its not part of other. Learn to read the chart for sure. Thou shout not rip of thy loyal customers. Guess reading is where you failed.
December 6, 2008 4:31:22 PM

gryph667 said:
Lawl. Just lawl. No they can't stop all of them. They can stop the ones that matter.

This is why business school grads suck. Research every company that has folded or is folding and you'll find an MBA that thought he knew what he was doing.

Next time admit TL;DR even if you're completely incapable of admitting "Didn't get it, too much logic."

Blizzard has had realm price the same for 4 years so why do you not understand. Im talking about tighter margins due to more money and higher populations. Your off on realm costs which blizzard can surly do the realm per price at current populations. The only way the price goes down is higher populations with more realms little more money comes in but tighter margins.

Margins can be tigher as sales goes up and thous thats how walmart sales cheaper.

Sorry but you don't realize these private server have developers with back up copy's of the database. They will just set up servers else where. All blizzard done was change leadership. So no they don't even stop the ones that matter.
Next time just admit you got off on the wrong discussion and incapable of addmitting you don't under stand higher sales with tighter margins.
December 6, 2008 5:05:52 PM

@elbert

HI. This is the wife of Gryph667. I do not play WOW. I'm not really interested in video games and at times, I think WOW gets far too intense for a recreational pastime- at least from what I've seen as an outside observer. I'd rather not have politics mix with my recreation. Anyway, you get the idea...

Still, I have a major issue with all this. When some one or a group of people put in the hard work to invent and develop a product, they deserve to be paid reasonable compensation for their time, efforts and thought. This is called capitalism and is something that defines the economic base of "The Free World".

In other words, you are allowed to buy, sell and conduct business as you choose, within legal boundaries. ALL users signed a licensing agreement in order to partake in this game. This is a LEGAL and BINDING contract. Period. You agreed to pay "X" amount a month for the privilege of using *their* services. You can certainly choose to stop paying, but it is just stupid to expect that you'll get to play for free. Should your employer dock your pay because of your personality or your age and expect you to work for "free"? Is your time, effort and though less valuable than someone else's because maybe you aren't as "new" or good looking as another co-worker?

If you go out and buy a new car with a bank loan, you have to pay a set amount until the terms of that contract have been satisfied. It doesn't matter that the car is going to depreciate over time and will be worth considerably less in three years than it was, new. The point is, you agreed to a contract to buy it and in return, you get to *use* the car (which technically the bank or lending agency owns in the meantime,) until you have made all your payments.

So, you have a choice to make. Either pay and play, or find another hobby. For you to think that pirate servers are a reasonable alternative is the same as thinking that it's perfectly OK to buy a stolen TV or stereo because it's "cheaper" than getting your own, legitimately.

Here's one final thing to ponder: "TANSTAAFL !" "There 'aint no such thing as a free lunch.

December 6, 2008 5:28:37 PM

Quote:
Thou shout not rip of thy loyal customers. Guess reading is where you failed.

Who is ripping off their customers? Please explain.

There are millions of people who find WoW worth paying for. THOSE are Blizzards loyal customers and obviously they are doing right by THOSE people as can be seen in WotLK being the fastest selling game of all time.

Now if Blizzard were to suddenly drop prices to appease the people who currently are not their customers who would they be screwing then? They would be telling their loyal customers (ie the people already paying) "Hey, we've been overcharging you for years but now after you've paid your dues were going to slash prices and let all the rift-raft in."

I pay $15 a month for WoW. $10 less doesn't mean squat to me. Having wait times to get on a server or having trouble finding servers with mature populations are something I don't want to deal with. That's why I DON'T play free MMOs.

It's like going to a bar. You can choose to either go to the one with no cover charge and $1 pitchers or you can go to the place where it's going to cost you a few bucks to get in and drinks are a little overpriced. At the first bar you have to deal more unsavory elements but you can get drunk for cheap. The other place cost a little more but you get things like live music, maybe some food and better looking women. Neither place is ripping people off, each is just catering to what their respective clientele want.
December 6, 2008 6:18:24 PM

gryph667 said:
@elbert

HI. This is the wife of Gryph667. I do not play WOW. I'm not really interested in video games and at times, I think WOW gets far too intense for a recreational pastime- at least from what I've seen as an outside observer. I'd rather not have politics mix with my recreation. Anyway, you get the idea...

Still, I have a major issue with all this. When some one or a group of people put in the hard work to invent and develop a product, they deserve to be paid reasonable compensation for their time, efforts and thought. This is called capitalism and is something that defines the economic base of "The Free World".

In other words, you are allowed to buy, sell and conduct business as you choose, within legal boundaries. ALL users signed a licensing agreement in order to partake in this game. This is a LEGAL and BINDING contract. Period. You agreed to pay "X" amount a month for the privilege of using *their* services. You can certainly choose to stop paying, but it is just stupid to expect that you'll get to play for free. Should your employer dock your pay because of your personality or your age and expect you to work for "free"? Is your time, effort and though less valuable than someone else's because maybe you aren't as "new" or good looking as another co-worker?

If you go out and buy a new car with a bank loan, you have to pay a set amount until the terms of that contract have been satisfied. It doesn't matter that the car is going to depreciate over time and will be worth considerably less in three years than it was, new. The point is, you agreed to a contract to buy it and in return, you get to *use* the car (which technically the bank or lending agency owns in the meantime,) until you have made all your payments.

So, you have a choice to make. Either pay and play, or find another hobby. For you to think that pirate servers are a reasonable alternative is the same as thinking that it's perfectly OK to buy a stolen TV or stereo because it's "cheaper" than getting your own, legitimately.

Here's one final thing to ponder: "TANSTAAFL !" "There 'aint no such thing as a free lunch.

Im happy you understand we are talk about paid reasonable compensation. Point one tho is under their agreement from before wotlk they did not forbid emulation. Very few private servers have wotlk working. Now im not using there services on private so that is not in question. Only agreement i have made is up to version 2.4.3 which in no way forbids playing on emulation servers.

P.S. nice analogy with the car but as far from the way retail works as mine with the movie getting a few extra mins each month.

The questions all come back to the same reasonable compensation. I buy the games but don't play on there servers IE no service thus I fill I have given reasonable compensation.

Another question is why do they charge as much as the original but don't give a free month play like the original? Greed and wanting over compensation for there outdated game I guess.
December 6, 2008 6:31:37 PM

purplerat said:
Quote:
Thou shout not rip of thy loyal customers. Guess reading is where you failed.

Who is ripping off their customers? Please explain.

There are millions of people who find WoW worth paying for. THOSE are Blizzards loyal customers and obviously they are doing right by THOSE people as can be seen in WotLK being the fastest selling game of all time.

Now if Blizzard were to suddenly drop prices to appease the people who currently are not their customers who would they be screwing then? They would be telling their loyal customers (ie the people already paying) "Hey, we've been overcharging you for years but now after you've paid your dues were going to slash prices and let all the rift-raft in."

I pay $15 a month for WoW. $10 less doesn't mean squat to me. Having wait times to get on a server or having trouble finding servers with mature populations are something I don't want to deal with. That's why I DON'T play free MMOs.

It's like going to a bar. You can choose to either go to the one with no cover charge and $1 pitchers or you can go to the place where it's going to cost you a few bucks to get in and drinks are a little overpriced. At the first bar you have to deal more unsavory elements but you can get drunk for cheap. The other place cost a little more but you get things like live music, maybe some food and better looking women. Neither place is ripping people off, each is just catering to what their respective clientele want.

LOL I find it funny you see paying for there latest game makes a loyal customer. I have purchased ever game they have made starting back with warcraft for DOS. The only game I haven't purchased is starcraft2 because I'm a bit upset at there greed of late.

O so your saying we should have the choice to pay or play for free in the less fixed up private servers.
December 6, 2008 6:57:39 PM

Quote:
Point one tho is under their agreement from before wotlk they did not forbid emulation.

NO! Blizzard never allowed people to play for free on private servers. Just because they only recently started to go after these people that does not mean they were ok with it before. Besides people playing on private servers are not Blizzards customers. The client software is free - you pay for the account. If you are playing on a private server then you are not using a valid account. You're not Blizzards customer they owe NOTHING to you. If anything it's you who owes them, ergo why they are suing.

Quote:
The only game I haven't purchased is starcraft2 because I'm a bit upset at there greed of late.

FYI, you haven't bought StarCraft 2 because it hasn't been released. I'm not really sure what greed you are talking about other than the greed every company has because every company is in business to make money and the more the better.

Quote:
O so your saying we should have the choice to pay or play for free in the less fixed up private servers.
You have the choice to pay to play Blizzard's game or play another game for free. There are lots of free MMOs out there. Why don't you play them?

The answer is that BECAUSE Blizzard charges they are able to/have more motive to make a better game. Free MMOs have less resources and motivation to make games as good as WoW. So you want to play WoW but not have to pay for the better experience. Basically you expect people like myself, who are willing to pay, to support you having a better gaming experience without have to pay yourself. Who's the greedy one now?
December 6, 2008 7:41:34 PM

Quote:
NO! Blizzard never allowed people to play for free on private servers. Just because they only recently started to go after these people that does not mean they were ok with it before. Besides people playing on private servers are not Blizzards customers. The client software is free - you pay for the account. If you are playing on a private server then you are not using a valid account. You're not Blizzards customer they owe NOTHING to you. If anything it's you who owes them, ergo why they are suing.

Didn't say play for free but they didn't forbid emulation till now. No the client isn't free unless you have downloaded it illegally. I have a valid account on there servers and a few chars from the one month free.

Quote:
FYI, you haven't bought StarCraft 2 because it hasn't been released. I'm not really sure what greed you are talking about other than the greed every company has because every company is in business to make money and the more the better.

Sorry I was going to say im not planing on buying starcraft2. Blizzard run Diablo2 for 5 years which I payed $160 for 2 accounts for both me and my son to play. Now WOW would cost me more than that for 1 acccount for less than a year. I guess everyone is mad at big oil company's for just making money.

Quote:
The answer is that BECAUSE Blizzard charges they are able to/have more motive to make a better game. Free MMOs have less resources and motivation to make games as good as WoW. So you want to play WoW but not have to pay for the better experience. Basically you expect people like myself, who are willing to pay, to support you having a better gaming experience without have to pay yourself. Who's the greedy one now?

The greedy one has only ever played WOW and calls him or herself a loyal customer. These greedy ones will cost blizzard many a true loyal customer. Now when I purchased WOW I had the understanding the monthly charge was for servers. I expected this rate to reduce as servers got cheaper. Was I mislead? I expect you to pay atleast as much as the lowest cost of the server. Anymore blizzard could make a vip account for and I would not care. Now WOW has been motive to only slow production on other titles.

P.S. Thanks for helping me keep this thread near the top.
December 6, 2008 8:40:46 PM

Quote:
Didn't say play for free but they didn't forbid emulation till now. No the client isn't free unless you have downloaded it illegally. I have a valid account on there servers and a few chars from the one month free.

Emulation would violate copyright protection. The only difference is now they are going after people for doing so. You might want get a refund on those "good business ethics" you got with your BBA if you think emulating a server to avoid paying subscription fees is a permissible thing to do.

Free client right here:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/downloads/files/pc/TryWoW.exe

You can also take a single copy of WoW and install it on as many PCs as you want. The restriction being that you must use a valid account to play the game and only one person can play on the same account at one time. Using a non-Blizzard server is circumventing this restriction and is a copyright infringement. It's no different then using a pirated copy of any other game. If you think piracy is OK then see my previous statement about getting a refund on the ethics you learned.

Quote:
Sorry I was going to say im not planing on buying starcraft2. Blizzard run Diablo2 for 5 years which I payed $160 for 2 accounts for both me and my son to play. Now WOW would cost me more than that for 1 acccount for less than a year. I guess everyone is mad at big oil company's for just making money.

Your talking about different products. Great that you enjoyed Diablo2, but WoW is a different game. I understand they are making a Diablo3, maybe that is a product you will find more desirable. Companies are well within there rights to price different products differently. The pricing scheme for WoW was well defined and known before it ever came, but now 4 years later your acting incredulous as if they snuck this in on you and you deserve access to this game because you bought past titles. Grow up.

Quote:
P.S. Thanks for helping me keep this thread near the top.

If seeing your name at the top of a forum is what makes you feel good about yourself, then sure your welcome.
December 6, 2008 9:23:16 PM

monthly fee for games is annoying

they probably feel that it will cause more people to pay the monthly fee if they cant play the game otherwise

it will only end up hurting them

wow doesn't have enough content to be worth the $15 a month
December 6, 2008 10:43:36 PM

Quote:
Emulation would violate copyright protection. The only difference is now they are going after people for doing so. You might want get a refund on those "good business ethics" you got with your BBA if you think emulating a server to avoid paying subscription fees is a permissible thing to do.

Free client right here:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/dow [...] TryWoW.exe

You can also take a single copy of WoW and install it on as many PCs as you want. The restriction being that you must use a valid account to play the game and only one person can play on the same account at one time. Using a non-Blizzard server is circumventing this restriction and is a copyright infringement. It's no different then using a pirated copy of any other game. If you think piracy is OK then see my previous statement about getting a refund on the ethics you learned.

Emulation in and of itself doesnt violate copyright protection. Not one line of the code is writen by a blizzard employee. It only violate the EULA agreement you sign before playing WOTLK to connect to a emulation server. Private servers violate copyright by adding the emulation together with the database.

You can also buy the box set and already payed for code there in and thus not be obligated to blizzard.

Quote:
Your talking about different products. Great that you enjoyed Diablo2, but WoW is a different game. I understand they are making a Diablo3, maybe that is a product you will find more desirable. Companies are well within there rights to price different products differently. The pricing scheme for WoW was well defined and known before it ever came, but now 4 years later your acting incredulous as if they snuck this in on you and you deserve access to this game because you bought past titles. Grow up.

Don't think I will be buying any more of blizzards games. This again is how being to greedy can come back to bit you in the rear. Growing up isn't needed as im not a troll. Going to a story and buying the game you will see on the box there was no mention of monthly charge 4 years ago. They only mentioned one free month. I was stating some of the history of blizzards game to show none greed to greed.

We were talk about customer loyalty when i mentioned past products and you seem to try and twist words as you choice. Rewording thing to meet your ideals.
Quote:
Quote :

Point one tho is under their agreement from before wotlk they did not forbid emulation.


NO! Blizzard never allowed people to play for free on private servers.

Please stop twisting what i say. Not forbiding emulation and playing for free is one example of you twisting words. Two different things and if I paid for the box set Im not getting to play for free.

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If seeing your name at the top of a forum is what makes you feel good about yourself, then sure your welcome.

It does and thanks.

Back to your pie chart Runescape is second largest and I forgot to mention that is only those who pay the $5 monthly. Those play Runscape for free are roughly the same amount as those paying.
December 6, 2008 10:47:39 PM

razor512 said:
monthly fee for games is annoying

they probably feel that it will cause more people to pay the monthly fee if they cant play the game otherwise

it will only end up hurting them

wow doesn't have enough content to be worth the $15 a month

Agreed.
December 7, 2008 1:47:08 AM

elbert said:
Agreed.

The 10 million or so paying Blizzard apparently think so.
December 7, 2008 1:56:37 AM

Quote:
Emulation in and of itself doesnt violate copyright protection. Not one line of the code is writen by a blizzard employee. It only violate the EULA agreement you sign before playing WOTLK to connect to a emulation server. Private servers violate copyright by adding the emulation together with the database.

You can also buy the box set and already payed for code there in and thus not be obligated to blizzard.


You are not buying code when you purchase a game. If you were it would cost a lot more than a couple hundred bucks a year. What you are paying for is a license to use their code and you must follow their terms to do so legally. Even if you pay for a licensed copy you are still not entitled to do whatever you want with it. Whether you use emulation, private servers, hacks, gliders, bots, etc you are still circumventing the terms set for use of copyrighted material. You are violating somebody else's rights, so I'd really like to hear your ethical argument for how that is OK.
December 7, 2008 9:42:44 AM

purplerat said:
Quote:
Emulation in and of itself doesnt violate copyright protection. Not one line of the code is writen by a blizzard employee. It only violate the EULA agreement you sign before playing WOTLK to connect to a emulation server. Private servers violate copyright by adding the emulation together with the database.

You can also buy the box set and already payed for code there in and thus not be obligated to blizzard.


You are not buying code when you purchase a game. If you were it would cost a lot more than a couple hundred bucks a year. What you are paying for is a license to use their code and you must follow their terms to do so legally. Even if you pay for a licensed copy you are still not entitled to do whatever you want with it. Whether you use emulation, private servers, hacks, gliders, bots, etc you are still circumventing the terms set for use of copyrighted material. You are violating somebody else's rights, so I'd really like to hear your ethical argument for how that is OK.


EULA's are not in the uk legally binding, here in the UK statutory rights over ride anything contained in a contract. Unnegotiated terms in a standard contract are a very weak basis for a suit in fact here in the uk such terms are more often used as a way to take the issuer to court...

Here in the uk we have very specific rights to use copyright material without the holders consent for non commercial use personal research and study. Certainly setting up a private server is a very interesting study in sql...

Anyone charging for use of these servers would certainly be in deepwater, as thats a clear commercial use. Anyone developing and DISTRIBUTING emulators \ databases etc could potentially be in trouble depending on how similar or based upon blizzards server code they are. Certainly wholesale copying of quest text etc would be a violation of blizzards server software copyright. The act of creating a database and software emulator software itself would very likely be completely legal as a non commercial research project until the point where you start distributing it for use other than by yourself, and then its only illegal if its substantially the same as blizzards work.

Big companies and well paid lawyers can "get it wrong" when it comes to software copyright just ask former SCO employees... SCO lost the case not because linux didnt look and feel and perform many functions the same as unix, but because they couldnt prove that a "substantial amount" of the code wa the same, despite the fact that no doubt many linux developers had used unix and had license agreements in place stopping them from reverse engineering unix etc.

Copyright varies from country to country hence thepiratebay carries on despite the USA's DMCA legislation.

Hence despite a successfull suit in the USA against shepperton studios (the people who originally produced the props for lucas) are still producing replica stormtrooper suits, they continue to be legally sold in the rest of the world. Lucas with his vast resources and army of lawyers tried to take shepperton to court in the uk and LOST, because the UK copyright laws are different.

Whilst certainly even here in the UK I could see that a "Blizzlike" like large realm either charging or accepting donations could potentially be in legal trouble, there are certainly legal cases where a server emulator could be completely legal.
December 7, 2008 10:59:56 AM

purplerat said:
Quote:
Emulation in and of itself doesnt violate copyright protection. Not one line of the code is writen by a blizzard employee. It only violate the EULA agreement you sign before playing WOTLK to connect to a emulation server. Private servers violate copyright by adding the emulation together with the database.

You can also buy the box set and already payed for code there in and thus not be obligated to blizzard.


You are not buying code when you purchase a game. If you were it would cost a lot more than a couple hundred bucks a year. What you are paying for is a license to use their code and you must follow their terms to do so legally. Even if you pay for a licensed copy you are still not entitled to do whatever you want with it. Whether you use emulation, private servers, hacks, gliders, bots, etc you are still circumventing the terms set for use of copyrighted material. You are violating somebody else's rights, so I'd really like to hear your ethical argument for how that is OK.

There you go again as I said buy the box set. Ill twist my words to my exact meaning of you have paid for the right to use the code. It true you must follow their terms but when they leave things out its called loop holes. True when i payed for the box set that doesn't entitle me resell or make copy's for sale. True if you use hacks, gliders, bots, etc on retail they ban you for one month. Can you say slap on the wrist. Yes I was there on retail and reported my fair share of bot users until i seen them back in a month doing the same.

Now Blizzard due to greed has gotten the title of the next microsoft. So anything they make if not top notch will fail just like vista has. Only problem here is they're a lot more games than OS around.
December 7, 2008 11:56:12 AM

Quote:
You can also buy the box set and already payed for code there in and thus not be obligated to blizzard.


I'm not twisting your words. The fact is you do NOT pay for code. You have NO legal right to use their code ANY way other than under the terms Blizzard sets. And just because people usually only get a minor slap on the wrist for violating those terms does not mean it's a loophole or ok. But once again I'll repeat the same question you've avoided the past two post; How is even using a "loophole" to avoid having to pay for something you otherwise would have to pay for considered ethical?

Quote:
Now Blizzard due to greed has gotten the title of the next microsoft. So anything they make if not top notch will fail just like vista has. Only problem here is they're a lot more games than OS around.

So what is that, your justification for why you steal from them? You can join all of the other self proclaimed Digital Robin Hoods how think they are stealing from the rich to give to the poor. Except that in most cases if you're in a position to be pirating games/using private WoW servers you're really not all that poor, you're just a leach.
December 7, 2008 3:00:06 PM

Quote:
I'm not twisting your words. The fact is you do NOT pay for code. You have NO legal right to use their code ANY way other than under the terms Blizzard sets. And just because people usually only get a minor slap on the wrist for violating those terms does not mean it's a loophole or ok. But once again I'll repeat the same question you've avoided the past two post; How is even using a "loophole" to avoid having to pay for something you otherwise would have to pay for considered ethical?

You do pay for code else when buying the box from stores you would only have a nice box with a blank CD or DVD. Your twisting my words by implying I think I can do anything with the code on the CD's. You have rights which is set by your common laws so when the company doesn't restrict your use in some way common laws govern. Do you just not understand the laws or look for free lessons.

If I didn't agree to an EULA that restricts me from connecting to an emulation server then they can do nothing to me. They may attack the emulation server but as you can see its affects are in question. Ethical business practices are all determined by the date and times you apply the ethics. Ethics are society based and change over time. Blizzard has just tried to change the ethics which I have not agreed. I haven't installed and agreed to the WOTLK EULA. Ethics is one thing but letting some one walk all over you is another. The question your missing is blizzard being ethical? Im not the one running a business. Did anyone who purchased the first game expect to have to pay both a monthly fee and for added content in the expansions? I say they didn't for sure the added content. Did those first buying windows XP OEM know they can only install it on one PC? No. Business change terms to benefit themself and if they go overboard its their ethics in question not there customers. If there customers continue without call them on there change then customers are at fault.

Now if I purchased WOTLK with its new EULA I would be ethnically in the wrong. Thus Im not buying that either. Hence Ill be playing 2.4.3 BC.

Quote:
So what is that, your justification for why you steal from them? You can join all of the other self proclaimed Digital Robin Hoods how think they are stealing from the rich to give to the poor. Except that in most cases if you're in a position to be pirating games/using private WoW servers you're really not all that poor, you're just a leach.

I steal nothing as i payed for the box set. If I don't play on their servers for a month I have no reason to pay them. That was a service charge up till WOTLK's EULA. The private server runners are the only one breaking any kind of laws which mostly was accepting money for running the servers.

Are you enjoying the servers that my purchase of the box set helps pay for? Do you leach a good game that loyal customer of blizzard help build the company up to make? Do you plan on buying there less than great titles or will this be the only blizzard title you ever buy? Are you a user no matter the cost?

Now stop dodging the questions I have posted. Is blizzard being unethical? Have they deceived customers? Is retail servers as rot with bots, power levelers, and gold farmers as private servers? And finally are you part of the problem for continuing to pay them for questionable service?
December 7, 2008 3:16:30 PM

Quote:
You do pay for code else when buying the box from stores you would only have a nice box with a blank CD or DVD.

Get a clue, you are NOT buying code.
Quote:
Did anyone who purchased the first game expect to have to pay both a monthly fee and for added content in the expansions?

I'm looking at it right here on the back of the original box "Monthly fee required". Expansions are separate and NOT REQUIRED. Purchase of any expansion is completely optional to continuing play of the original.

Quote:
Did those first buying windows XP OEM know they can only install it on one PC?

No version of Windows was ever sold for multiple PCs unless it specifically said so (ie VLAs). The fact that XP took further steps to prevent duplication is no indication that it was OK on previous versions. Just like Blizzard never allowed people to emulate their software or use private servers. Once again get a clue.

Quote:
Are you enjoying the servers that my purchase of the box set helps pay for? Do you leach a good game that loyal customer of blizzard help build the company up to make? Do you plan on buying there less than great titles or will this be the only blizzard title you ever buy? Are you a user no matter the cost?

Get over yourself dude. You're not the only person who's every bought Blizzards games and they never made any promise to YOU about any future products they may release.

Quote:

Now stop dodging the questions I have posted. Is blizzard being unethical? Have they deceived customers? Is retail servers as rot with bots, power levelers, and gold farmers as private servers? And finally are you part of the problem for continuing to pay them for questionable service?
WTF are you even talking about? What's the questionable service? How have they deceived anybody? The fact that Diablo2 did not have a monthly fee has no bearing on WoWs pricing. If you think so you are an idiot.

After reading your post I seriously doubt you have any business experience. And if by some chance you really do have some sort of cereal box BBA I fear for any company which hires you for your business knowledge.
December 7, 2008 3:28:59 PM

This is the licensing agreement from an original copy of World of Warcraft CD. You can only use World of Warcraft under these terms. Simply saying you do not agree to them and playing the game anyways is NOT a valid argument. I've highlighted parts that basically destroy the OPs argument:

Quote:
Last Updated June1, 2006

IMPORTANT! PLEASE READ CAREFULLY.

BY INSTALLING, COPYING, OR OTHERWISE USING THE GAME (DEFINED BELOW), YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT, YOU ARE NOT PERMITTED TO INSTALL, COPY, OR USE THE GAME. IF YOU REJECT THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT WITHIN THIRTY (30) DAYS AFTER PURCHASING THE GAME, YOU MAY CONTACT BLIZZARD ENTERTAINMENT, INC. AT (800) 592-5499 TO REQUEST A FULL REFUND OF THE PURCHASE PRICE.

WORLD OF WARCRAFT® END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT

This software program, and any files that are delivered to you by Blizzard Entertainment, Inc. (via on-line transmission or otherwise) to "patch," update, or otherwise modify the software program, as well as any printed materials and any on-line or electronic documentation (the "Manual"), and any and all copies and derivative works of such software program and Manual (collectively, with the "Game Client" defined below, the "Game") is the copyrighted work of Blizzard Entertainment, Inc. or its licensors (collectively referred to herein as “Blizzard”). Any and all uses of the Game are governed by the terms of this End User License Agreement ("License Agreement" or "Agreement"). The Game may only be played by obtaining from Blizzard access to the World of Warcraft massively multi-player on-line role-playing game service (the "Service"), which is subject to a separate Terms of Use agreement (the "Terms of Use"). If your purchase of the Game included a period of "free access" to the Service, the Terms of Use agreement also governs your access to the Service during the period of "free access." The Game is distributed solely for use by authorized end users according to the terms of the License Agreement. Any use, reproduction, modification or distribution of the Game not expressly authorized by the terms of the License Agreement is expressly prohibited.

1. Grant of a Limited Use License. If you agree to this License Agreement, computer software (hereafter referred to as the "Game Client") will be installed onto your hardware. If your hardware meets the minimum requirements, the installation of the Game Client will enable you to play the Game by accessing your account with the Service (your "Account"). Subject to your agreement to and continuing compliance with this License Agreement, Blizzard hereby grants, and you hereby accept, a limited, non-exclusive license to (a) install the Game Client on one or more computers owned by you or under your legitimate control, and (b) use the Game Client in conjunction with the Service for your non-commercial entertainment purposes only. All use of the Game Client is subject to this License Agreement and to the Terms of Use agreement, both of which you must accept before you can use your Account to play the Game.

2. Service and Terms of Use. As mentioned above, you must accept the Terms of Use in order to access the Service to play the Game. The Terms of Use agreement governs all aspects of game play. You may view the Terms of Use by visiting the following website: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/legal/termsofuse.shtml. If you do not agree with the Terms of Use, then (a) you may not register for an Account to play the Game, and (b) you should contact Blizzard's customer service at (800) 592-5499 within thirty (30) days after the original purchase to arrange to return the Game and to request a full refund of the purchase price. Once you accept the License Agreement and the Terms of Use, you will no longer be eligible for a refund.

3. Ownership.

A. All title, ownership rights and intellectual property rights in and to the Game and all copies thereof (including without limitation any titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialog, catch phrases, locations, concepts, artwork, character inventories, structural or landscape designs, animations, sounds, musical compositions and recordings, audio-visual effects, storylines, character likenesses, methods of operation, moral rights, and any related documentation) are owned or licensed by Blizzard. The Game is protected by the copyright laws of the United States, international treaties and conventions, and other laws. The Game may contain materials licensed by third parties, and the licensors of those materials may enforce their rights in the event of any violation of this License Agreement.

B. You may permanently transfer all of your rights and obligations under the License Agreement to another by physically transferring the original media (e.g., the CD-ROM or DVD you purchased), all original packaging, and all Manuals or other documentation distributed with the Game; provided, however, that you permanently delete all copies and installations of the Game in your possession or control, and that the recipient agrees to the terms of this License Agreement. The transferor (i.e., you), and not Blizzard, agrees to be solely responsible for any taxes, fees, charges, duties, withholdings, assessments, and the like, together with any interest, penalties, and additions imposed in connection with such transfer.

4. Responsibilities of End User.

A. Subject to the license granted hereunder, you may not, in whole or in part, copy, photocopy, reproduce, translate, reverse engineer, derive source code from, modify, disassemble, decompile, or create derivative works based on the Game, or remove any proprietary notices or labels on the Game. Failure to comply with the restrictions and limitations contained in this Section 4 shall result in the immediate, automatic termination of the license granted hereunder and may subject you to civil and/or criminal liability. Notwithstanding the foregoing, you may make one (1) copy of the Game Client and the Manuals for archival purposes only.

B. You agree that you shall not, under any circumstances,

(i) sell, grant a security interest in or transfer reproductions of the Game to other parties in any way not expressly authorized herein, nor shall you rent, lease or license the Game to others;

(ii) exploit the Game or any of its parts, including without limitation the Game Client, for any commercial purpose, including without limitation use at a cyber cafe, computer gaming center or any other location-based site without the express written consent of Blizzard;

(iii) host, provide or develop matchmaking services for the Game or intercept, emulate or redirect the communication protocols used by Blizzard in any way, including without limitation through protocol emulation, tunneling, packet sniffing, modifying or adding components to the Game, use of a utility program or any other techniques now known or hereafter developed, for any purpose, including without limitation unauthorized network play over the Internet, network play utilizing commercial or non-commercial gaming networks, or as part of content aggregation networks; or

(iv) facilitate, create or maintain any unauthorized connection to the Game or the Service, including without limitation any connection to any unauthorized server that emulates, or attempts to emulate, the Service. All connections to the Game and/or the Service, whether created by the Game Client or by other tools and utilities, may only be made through methods and means expressly approved by Blizzard. Under no circumstances may you connect, or create tools that allow you or others to connect, to the Game's proprietary interface other than those expressly provided by Blizzard for public use.


5. Consent to Monitor. WHEN RUNNING, THE GAME MAY MONITOR YOUR COMPUTER'S RANDOM ACCESS MEMORY (RAM) FOR UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAMS RUNNING CONCURRENTLY WITH THE GAME. AN “UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAM” AS USED HEREIN SHALL BE DEFINED AS ANY THIRD PARTY SOFTWARE, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION ANY “ADDON,” “MOD,” “HACK,” “TRAINER,” OR “CHEAT,” THAT IN BLIZZARD'S SOLE DETERMINATION: (i) ENABLES OR FACILITATES CHEATING OF ANY TYPE; (ii) ALLOWS USERS TO MODIFY OR HACK THE GAME INTERFACE, ENVIRONMENT, AND/OR EXPERIENCE IN ANY WAY NOT EXPRESSLY AUTHORIZED BY BLIZZARD; OR (iii) INTERCEPTS, “MINES,” OR OTHERWISE COLLECTS INFORMATION FROM OR THROUGH THE GAME. IN THE EVENT THAT THE GAME DETECTS AN UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAM, THE GAME MAY (a) COMMUNICATE INFORMATION BACK TO BLIZZARD, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION YOUR ACCOUNT NAME, DETAILS ABOUT THE UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAM DETECTED, AND THE TIME AND DATE THE UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAM WAS DETECTED; AND/OR (b) EXERCISE ANY OR ALL OF ITS RIGHTS UNDER THIS AGREEMENT, WITH OR WITHOUT PRIOR NOTICE TO THE USER.

6. Termination. This License Agreement is effective until terminated. You may terminate the License Agreement at any time by (i) permanently destroying all copies of the Game in your possession or control; (ii) removing the Game Client from your hard drive; and (iii) notifying Blizzard of your intention to terminate this License Agreement. Blizzard may terminate this Agreement at any time for any reason or no reason. In such event, you must immediately and permanently destroy all copies of the Game in your possession and control and remove the Game Client from your hard drive. Upon termination of this Agreement for any reason, all licenses granted herein shall immediately terminate.

7. Export Controls. The Game may not be re-exported, downloaded or otherwise exported into (or to a national or resident of) any country to which the U.S. has embargoed goods, or to anyone on the U.S. Treasury Department's list of Specially Designated Nationals or the U.S. Commerce Department's Table of Denial Orders. You represent and warrant that you are not located in, under the control of, or a national or resident of any such country or on any such list.

8. Patches and Updates. Blizzard may deploy or provide patches, updates and modifications to the Game that must be installed for the user to continue to play the Game. Blizzard may update the Game remotely, including, without limitation, the Game Client residing on the user's machine, without the knowledge or consent of the user, and you hereby grant to Blizzard your consent to deploy and apply such patches, updates and modifications.

9. Duration of the "On-line" Component of the Game. This Game is an 'on-line' game that must be played over the Internet through the Service as provided by Blizzard. You understand and agree that the Service is provided by Blizzard at its discretion and may be terminated or otherwise discontinued by Blizzard pursuant to the Terms of Use.

10. Limited Warranty. THE GAME (INLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION THE GAME CLIENT AND MANUAL(S)) IS PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION ANY IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF CONDITION, UNINTERRUPTED USE, MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NONINFRINGEMENT. The entire risk arising out of use or performance of the Game (including without limitation the Game Client and Manual(s)) remains with the user. Notwithstanding the foregoing, Blizzard warrants up to and including 90 days from the date of your purchase of the Game that the media containing the Game Client shall be free from defects in material and workmanship. In the event that such media proves to be defective during that time period, and upon presentation to Blizzard of proof of purchase of the defective media, Blizzard will at its option (a) correct any defect, (b) provide you with a similar product of similar value, or (b) refund your money. THE FOREGOING IS YOUR SOLE AND EXCLUSIVE REMEDY FOR THE EXPRESS WARRANTY SET FORTH IN THIS SECTION. Some states do not allow the exclusion or limitation of implied warranties, so the above limitations may not apply to you.

11. Limitation of Liability, Indemnity. NEITHER BLIZZARD NOR ITS PARENT, SUBSIDIARIES OR AFFILIATES SHALL BE LIABLE IN ANY WAY FOR ANY LOSS OR DAMAGE OF ANY KIND ARISING OUT OF THE GAME OR ANY USE OF THE GAME, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION LOSS OF DATA, LOSS OF GOODWILL, WORK STOPPAGE, COMPUTER FAILURE OR MALFUNCTION, OR ANY AND ALL OTHER DAMAGES OR LOSSES. FURTHER, NEITHER BLIZZARD NOR ITS PARENT, SUBSIDIARIES OR AFFILIATES SHALL BE LIABLE IN ANY WAY FOR ANY LOSS OR DAMAGE TO PLAYER CHARACTERS, VIRTUAL GOODS (E.G., ARMOR, POTIONS, WEAPONS, ETC.) OR CURRENCY, ACCOUNTS, STATISTICS, OR USER STANDINGS, RANKS, OR PROFILE INFORMATION STORED BY THE GAME AND/OR THE SERVICE. BLIZZARD SHALL NOT BE RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INTERRUPTIONS OF SERVICE, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION ISP DISRUPTIONS, SOFTWARE OR HARDWARE FAILURES, OR ANY OTHER EVENT WHICH MAY RESULT IN A LOSS OF DATA OR DISRUPTION OF SERVICE. IN NO EVENT WILL BLIZZARD BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES. In no event shall Blizzard's liability, whether arising in contract, tort, strict liability or otherwise, exceed (in the aggregate) the total fees paid by you to Blizzard during the six (6) months prior to the time such claim arose. You hereby agree to defend, indemnify and hold Blizzard harmless from and against any claim, liability, loss, injury, damage, cost or expense (including reasonable attorneys' fees) incurred by Blizzard arising out of or from your use of the Game. Some states do not allow the exclusion or limitation of incidental or consequential damages, so the above limitations may not apply to you.

12. Equitable Remedies. You hereby agree that Blizzard would be irreparably damaged if the terms of this License Agreement were not specifically enforced, and therefore you agree that Blizzard shall be entitled, without bond, other security, or proof of damages, to appropriate equitable remedies with respect to breaches of this License Agreement, in addition to such other remedies as Blizzard may otherwise have available to it under applicable laws. In the event any litigation is brought by either party in connection with this License Agreement, the prevailing party in such litigation shall be entitled to recover from the other party all the costs, attorneys' fees and other expenses incurred by such prevailing party in the litigation.

13. Changes to the Agreement. Blizzard reserves the right, at its sole discretion, to change, modify, add to, supplement or delete any of the terms and conditions of this License Agreement when Blizzard upgrades the Game Client, effective upon prior notice as follows: Blizzard will post notification of any such changes to this License Agreement on the World of Warcraft website and will post the revised version of this License Agreement in this location, and may provide such other notice as Blizzard may elect in its sole discretion. If any future changes to this License Agreement are unacceptable to you or cause you to no longer be in compliance with this License Agreement, you may terminate this License Agreement in accordance with Section 5 herein. Your installation and use of any updates or modifications to the Game or your continued use of the Game following notice of changes to this Agreement will demonstrate your acceptance of any and all such changes. Blizzard may change, modify, suspend, or discontinue any aspect of the Game at any time. Blizzard may also impose limits on certain features or restrict your access to parts or all of the Game without notice or liability. You have no interest, monetary or otherwise, in any feature or content contained in the Game.

14. Choice of Laws. This Agreement shall be governed by and construed in accordance with the laws of the State of California, without giving effect to any principles of conflicts of law. Other laws may apply if you purchased your license to the Game in, and are a resident of, Canada, Australia, Singapore, or New Zealand, but shall affect this Agreement only to the extent required by such jurisdiction. In such a case, this Agreement shall be interpreted to give maximum effect to the terms and conditions hereof. If you purchased your license to the Game in New Zealand, and are a resident of New Zealand, The New Zealand Consumer Guarantees Act of 1993 ("Act") may apply to the Game and/or the Service as supplied by Blizzard to you. If the Act applies, then notwithstanding any other provision in this License Agreement, you may have rights or remedies as set out in the Act which may apply in addition to, or, to the extent that they are inconsistent, instead of, the rights or remedies set out in this License Agreement. Those who choose to access the Service from locations outside of the United States, Canada, Australia, Singapore, or New Zealand do so on their own initiative and are responsible for compliance with local laws if and to the extent local laws are applicable.

15. Miscellaneous. You agree that any claim asserted in any legal proceeding by one of the parties against the other shall be commenced and maintained in any state or federal court located in the State of California, County of Los Angeles, having subject matter jurisdiction with respect to the dispute between the parties. In the event that any provision of this License Agreement shall be held by a court or other tribunal of competent jurisdiction to be unenforceable, such provision will be enforced to the maximum extent permissible, and the remaining portions of this License Agreement shall remain in full force and effect. This License Agreement constitutes and contains the entire agreement between the parties with respect to the subject matter hereof and supersedes any prior oral or written agreements, provided, however, that this Agreement shall coexist with, and shall not supersede, the Terms of Use. To the extent that the provisions of this Agreement conflict with the provisions of the Terms of Use, the conflicting provisions in the Terms of Use shall govern.

I hereby acknowledge that I have read and understand the foregoing License Agreement and agree that by clicking “agree” or installing the Game Client I am acknowledging my agreement to be bound by the terms and conditions of this License Agreement.

© 2003-2006 Blizzard Entertainment, Inc. All rights reserved. Warcraft, World of Warcraft, and Blizzard Entertainment are registered trademarks of Blizzard Entertainment, Inc.


December 7, 2008 3:31:36 PM

Quote:
So what is that, your justification for why you steal from them? You can join all of the other self proclaimed Digital Robin Hoods how think they are stealing from the rich to give to the poor. Except that in most cases if you're in a position to be pirating games/using private WoW servers you're really not all that poor, you're just a leach.

Get a clue code is what computer reads off that CD or DVD that comes in the game box.

Quote:
I'm looking at it right here on the back of the original box "Monthly fee required". Expansions are separate and NOT REQUIRED. Purchase of any expansion is completely optional to continuing play of the original.

LOL you got one of the new box sets. There first one had nothing about an expansion. I have been trying my best to explain the bolded text above for you and that I dont have to agree to any EULA on expansions I don't buy or install.

Quote:
No version of Windows was ever sold for multiple PCs unless it specifically said so (ie VLAs). The fact that XP took further steps to prevent duplication is no indication that it was OK on previous versions. Just like Blizzard never allowed people to emulate their software or use private servers. Once again get a clue.

I was wrong you just down understand much. Retail XP you can uninstall on one PC and install it on another. The OEM version you cant and the first purchasers of XP OEM didnt know this.

Quote:
Get over yourself dude. You're not the only person who's every bought Blizzards games and they never made any promise to YOU about any future products they may release.

Very nice I answered your questions and you dodge mine. Noob troll go away.

Quote:
WTF are you even talking about? What's the questionable service? How have they deceived anybody? The fact that Diablo2 did not have a monthly fee has no bearing on WoWs pricing. If you think so you are an idiot.

After reading your post I seriously doubt you have any business experience. And if by some chance you really do have some sort of cereal box BBA I fear for any company which hires you for your business knowledge.

Noob troll here trying to change the subject to Diablo2. Noob troll acting like the doesn't understand when he doesn't have a clue.

P.S. I didnt host or create the connection. The private servers are the host and connection creaters and I didn't create or change the connection.
December 7, 2008 3:48:59 PM

Quote:
Noob troll here trying to change the subject to Diablo2. Noob troll acting like the doesn't understand when he doesn't have a clue.

No, this was your excuse for how Blizzard was ripping you off:

Quote:
Blizzard run Diablo2 for 5 years which I payed $160 for 2 accounts for both me and my son to play. Now WOW would cost me more than that for 1 acccount for less than a year.


Quote:
I was wrong you just down understand much. Retail XP you can uninstall on one PC and install it on another. The OEM version you cant and the first purchasers of XP OEM didnt know this.

Only if they were an idiot and didn't know what OEM stands for. Obviously you don't so let me spell if out Original Equipment Manufacturer. If software is OEM that means it can only be used on one machine, ie THE ORIGINAL EQUIPMENT!!! Which is why they sell it for less. Really, you do use ignorance as an art form don't you.

Quote:
Very nice I answered your questions and you dodge mine. Noob troll go away.

My answer is in the thread above yours. If you really have any sort of business education it should be pretty self explanatory.
December 7, 2008 4:02:08 PM

Quote:
No, this was your excuse for how Blizzard was ripping you off:

No, it was a question to see if you see how blizzard can be seen as ripping off there customers. You didn't answered the question and dodged it like a noob troll after he got his answer.

Quote:
Only if they were an idiot and didn't know what OEM stands for. Obviously you don't so let me spell if out Original Equipment Manufacturer. If software is OEM that means it can only be used on one machine, ie THE ORIGINAL EQUIPMENT!!! Which is why they sell it for less. Really, you do use ignorance as an art form don't you.

Let me spell it out to you up until when did it mean you could only install it on one PC? OEM back before you was born I guess was you had to have that company's hardware. IE a compaq OEM install disk only worked on a compaq PC. The new OEM XP means only that mobo. Your ignorance of change is really something to behold.

Quote:
My answer is in the thread above yours. If you really have any sort of business education it should be pretty self explanatory.

It answered none of my questions to you so go away noob troll.
December 7, 2008 4:21:54 PM

elbert said:
Quote:
No, this was your excuse for how Blizzard was ripping you off:

No, it was a question to see if you see how blizzard can be seen as ripping off there customers. You didn't answered the question and dodged it like a noob troll after he got his answer.

Do you really have that poor an understanding of the English language that you think the two highlighted statements, the first from me the second from you, contradict rather than agree with one and other? I'm sorry but you obviously have no understanding of the words or concept being put forth on this page. You struggle to even put together a grammatically correct sentence and I have very little reason to believe you even understand what they mean. Furthermore it's blatantly obvious that you have zero understanding of the licensing agreement I posted above and how it applies to use of this game.

Even your use of the term "noob troll" shows that you have no understanding of even that term. It doesn't offend me in the slightest but all you would have to do is look at my post total and my active engagement in threads I post on to see neither or true. There's many more sensible names you could call me if you really feel the need to, but "noob troll" doesn't even make sense. It's like trying to slander somebody of one racial group by calling them the slur for another. You just end up looking like an idiot.
December 7, 2008 4:39:10 PM

Quote:
Let me spell it out to you up until when did it mean you could only install it on one PC? OEM back before you was born I guess was you had to have that company's hardware. IE a compaq OEM install disk only worked on a compaq PC. The new OEM XP means only that mobo.

Not that I think you'll understand this, but just for the sake of correctness in case anybody else stumbles upon this.
OEM as it pertains to OS software (specifically Windows) never meant you could install it on as many PCs of the same brand as you wanted. Technically it could be done, but it was still in violation of the copyright of said OS.
In fact today many manufacturer OEM OS CDs can be used on multiple units of the same manufacturer (particularly Dell, Gateway and Acer). Just because you can do something that does not make it legal. I can take perfectly legal materials and open a meth lab in my basement. The simple fact that it can be done does not make it right or legal to do so.

The difference between the two types of OEM is only in what type of protection they use. Some use a unit or serial specific protection which makes it harder to use on more than 1 machine. Other companies use a universal protection for their machines alone because it's cheaper. Just because you can take advantage of such a lapse in protection does not make it right.
December 7, 2008 7:53:38 PM

Quote:
It seems that Blizzard does whatever it wants, they have money, they have lawyers, they're doing what they think is best for them, and here I have to agree with a previous poster about being timed with Christmas and them wanting to milk the max amount of sales out of people

Well that's what they're in business for. Last time I checked Blizzard wasn't a charity organization. As far as them doing whatever they want to do, they are doing nothing more than exercising their rights to protect their product. If people don't like that the answer is very simple; don't buy or use their products. I'm not aware of any case where Blizzard forced anybody to play a game of theirs or pay for a subscription against their own will. But maybe I'm wrong.
December 7, 2008 8:04:18 PM

purplerat said:
Do you really have that poor an understanding of the English language that you think the two highlighted statements, the first from me the second from you, contradict rather than agree with one and other? I'm sorry but you obviously have no understanding of the words or concept being put forth on this page. You struggle to even put together a grammatically correct sentence and I have very little reason to believe you even understand what they mean. Furthermore it's blatantly obvious that you have zero understanding of the licensing agreement I posted above and how it applies to use of this game.

Even your use of the term "noob troll" shows that you have no understanding of even that term. It doesn't offend me in the slightest but all you would have to do is look at my post total and my active engagement in threads I post on to see neither or true. There's many more sensible names you could call me if you really feel the need to, but "noob troll" doesn't even make sense. It's like trying to slander somebody of one racial group by calling them the slur for another. You just end up looking like an idiot.

Dodge dodge noob troll. That all your going to see as to a reply until you answer the for mentioned questions.
December 7, 2008 8:09:10 PM

Quote:
That all your going to see as to a reply until you answer the for mentioned questions.

Fine by me. We can both just ignore your precious little thread and watch it drop all the way down unit it's not even on the first page anymore :lol: 
December 7, 2008 8:12:43 PM

Quote:
It seems that Blizzard does whatever it wants, they have money, they have lawyers, they're doing what they think is best for them, and here I have to agree with a previous poster about being timed with Christmas and them wanting to milk the max amount of sales out of people :sarcastic:  :sweat:  http://seoagora.com/img/589/d08l1104oulu/smiley2.gifhttp://seoagora.com/img/308/s08e1024rvou/champagne.gifhttp://seoagora.com/img/317/s08b1024uzjw/content.gifhttp://seoagora.com/img/459/k08q1024glza/ecstatic.gifhttp://seoagora.com/img/460/c08n1024twxu/eeek.gifhttp://seoagora.com/img/1098/s08m1119gagq/wave.gifhttp://seoagora.com/img/1215/b08z1127keva/fine.gif


Agreed and I wonder which side those lawyers will be on when the stockholders sue blizzard? Angering customers does fall under not protecting stockholders interest.
December 7, 2008 8:16:59 PM


Quote:
Fine by me. We can both just ignore your precious little thread and watch it drop all the way down unit it's not even on the first page anymore :lol: 

Your a toll thats not in your nature.
December 8, 2008 9:54:46 AM

gryph667 said:
@elbert
Still, I have a major issue with all this. When some one or a group of people put in the hard work to invent and develop a product, they deserve to be paid reasonable compensation for their time, efforts and thought. This is called capitalism and is something that defines the economic base of "The Free World".

(...)

Here's one final thing to ponder: "TANSTAAFL !" "There 'aint no such thing as a free lunch.


Hard to believe that one would have to read such a thing here....
The economic base of "The free world", as opposed to what? "the enslaved world"?
And I guess that in your mind this so called "Free world" would be embodied by the US?
A country that engages in torture, arbitrary arrestations and crimes of war? A country that has repetedly engaged in the past in criminal actions (assassinations, social unrest ect...) to protect its commercial interests and those of american compagnies (panama and united fruits for instance, but that was just a start)?
Please, talk about capitalism and western countries all you want but refrain from using such biased terms or from pushing ideological arguments in the course of the discution, I believe this is not the place for that.



Back on the subject, I believe you missed one or two of the most importants to play on a private server rather than a public one :

- Network reasons :
When being on certain types of private network (university networks for instance, but also most company intranets), one may have limited connectivity to the outside that prevents you from playing the game on the official servers. In this situation a private server for the people on the private network might seem like a good solution.

- Community reasons :
People have been keen to point out that private servers loose on the community aspect of wow. However, setting up a private server is the *only* way to be able to screen the users that will be allowed to play. Anybody who has played wow knows that the proportion of people you don't want to have anything to do with is pretty high on public servers. Private servers reamain the only way to be able to set up a closed community with specific criterias (for instance, if you only want to play with mature gamers who know how to write and have a good knowledge of wow background)


That being said, it doesn't mean private server are justified, but there can certainly be reasons to play on them other than the monthly fee.
December 8, 2008 2:50:23 PM

Free world as in areas where trade and commerce are, for the most part, free ie non-arbitrary. It was not a statement made to reference the US specifically, although with Blizzard/Vivendi-Activision maintaining its articles of corporation, I can see where that assumption might have been made.

Meanwhile, using a discussion about a private entity ie Blizzard, to voice opinions about a governmental agency's actions and policies is something I find in poor taste.

Private servers from the early days of online gaming have always been about control. People or groups of people get together to rent a gameserver, such as Quake or Counter-Strike so as to assert control over the random asshattery that occurs on other servers. WoW on the other hand has never been meant for private server distribution, on public or private networks. They, as the creators of the models, textures, text and yes, code, determined at the games inception that they wanted to retain a large level of control over their intellectual property.

Quick aside, it IS their code. While they did not develop the language the code is written, they paid programmers, and continue to pay them, to string characters together to call up values and execute commands. Asserting that the code doesn't belong to them, from the argument as I understand it, is no author owns his written work because the letters and words he or she uses are open source, is ludicrous.

Now, the control they exert insures that the game experience is as similar as possible as far as available content. Whether an individual is able to get to all of that content is up to them and their ability to interface with other individuals. The graphics, the gameplay, spells etc, are all things that they wish to maintain to control and it's within their right to do so to protect their intellectual property.

Now, onto the monthly fee. Guess what, Elbert, the monthly fee has gone down. While the numerical value of that fee, 15 USD, has remained the same, the monthly fee has been deflated from the inflation of the currency. Factor into the scenario that with the performance of the market over the last four years, the cost of running a Blizz server has only gone up. It has cost more and more money to energize those servers, cool those servers, connect those servers, etc due to rising energy costs during the lifetime of the game. Ironically, the current cost of petrol NOW is at it lowest in the US in five years, due to several financial collapses. Yet the energy cost to heat and cool a home or a server farm hasn't gone down proportionally. While it's nice at the pump, the electricity bills aren't reflecting it. Probably because most of those are government run, and it goes against the grain for political managers to take less money than they were before.

Bottom line, it's Blizz's property, they have the right, and have always retained the right, to control how and when their intellectual property is used, and setting up a private server, facilitating through the provision of emulation software, and playing on them is not ethical.

I will concede that setting up a private server for the purpose of fiddling with commands in order to test changes, ie break the code to learn how to better make it unbreakable, to make oneself a better coder doesn't hurt anyone. That is not, however, what any of these entities getting cease and desists have been doing.
December 8, 2008 9:36:44 PM

Ok now everyone.... *breath*

I would just like to make a break so you guys can take a breather and say, Purplerat, I love reading your posts :p 

But he is right Elbert. If you don't like it, go find a free MMO and stop claiming he's a troll when all your doing is going around in circles and dodging statements that prove it.
December 8, 2008 11:37:25 PM

Quote:
Now, onto the monthly fee. Guess what, Elbert, the monthly fee has gone down. While the numerical value of that fee, 15 USD, has remained the same, the monthly fee has been deflated from the inflation of the currency. Factor into the scenario that with the performance of the market over the last four years, the cost of running a Blizz server has only gone up. It has cost more and more money to energize those servers, cool those servers, connect those servers, etc due to rising energy costs during the lifetime of the game. Ironically, the current cost of petrol NOW is at it lowest in the US in five years, due to several financial collapses. Yet the energy cost to heat and cool a home or a server farm hasn't gone down proportionally. While it's nice at the pump, the electricity bills aren't reflecting it. Probably because most of those are government run, and it goes against the grain for political managers to take less money than they were before.

No its went up. Firstly you dont get the first month free as you once did from the original game. Second in this bad economy's its harder to make a buck. The cost of playing has increased.

Servers have gotten more powerful over the past 4 years cost of running the servers have lowered. Here is whats really eating at blizzard. Wowscape on one server can run 8k players. Retail servers averages only 6.3k. I dont understand why your even talking about cost as things are currently. Are you slow in the head. Blizzard is already set the price monthly to $15. All of what your going on about is already factored into the $15 at current population with the current number of realms. If they got 20million subscribers they can add realms, lower monthly price, and still make the same. Your confusing what it take to run a single realm as im talking about adding more realms and population.

Quote:
Bottom line, it's Blizz's property, they have the right, and have always retained the right, to control how and when their intellectual property is used, and setting up a private server, facilitating through the provision of emulation software, and playing on them is not ethical.

Below that bottom lines its stockholders. It not ethical business practice to upset past customers. Its not ethical business practices to use near monopolistic type control over any market.
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