Sign in with
Sign up | Sign in
Your question

Instant Wireless Network for 3,000 people

Last response: in Wireless Networking
Share
Anonymous
September 6, 2004 1:47:19 PM

Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

Does anyone here know if it's even possible to setup a wirless network
with enough coverage, range and speed for 3000+ people? This is a
rural midwestern town with no DSL or Cable broadband access that has a
festival every fall and we are considering offering wireless access to
each of the 3000+ vendors for credit card processing, online catalog
previewing etc.

We are aware of the new WiMax standard but are looking for a solution
that doesn't involved the higher costs of installing WiMax towers etc.
Maybe satellite but I heard because of latency issues that these
connections aren't as robust we need them to be.

Please feel free to post here or contact me offlist.
Thank you all for any feedback.
Anonymous
September 6, 2004 7:19:02 PM

Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

On 6 Sep 2004 09:47:19 -0700, jacob_chaney@hotmail.com (Jacobs
Scooter) wrote:

>Does anyone here know if it's even possible to setup a wirless network
>with enough coverage, range and speed for 3000+ people? This is a
>rural midwestern town with no DSL or Cable broadband access that has a
>festival every fall and we are considering offering wireless access to
>each of the 3000+ vendors for credit card processing, online catalog
>previewing etc.

There are much larger wireless networks around. See:
http://www.muniwireless.com
Also, join the ISP-Wireless mailing list at:
http://www.isp-wireless.com
where most of the system operators hang out.

Read "How to start a wireless ISP" at:
http://www.isp-planet.com/fixed_wireless/business/wirel...
http://www.isp-planet.com/fixed_wireless/business/wirel...
http://www.broadbandreports.com/faq/2667
http://www.wispfaq.com

>We are aware of the new WiMax standard but are looking for a solution
>that doesn't involved the higher costs of installing WiMax towers etc.

At this time, there is very little 802.16 (WiMax) hardware available.
For example, Alvarion has 3.5GHz ETSI HiperMAN hardware for Europe,
but nothing yet for 2.4 or 5.6Ghz. Basically, everyone is waiting for
Intel to deliver their promised chipset, which is late, as usual.
This article seems to explain the problem fairly well:
http://www.x-changemag.com/articles/481infra2.html

>Maybe satellite but I heard because of latency issues that these
>connections aren't as robust we need them to be.

Ummm... I think you had better disclose what you're really trying to
accomplish. 3,000 high speed users are going to require multiple
backhauls and redundant paths. I'm not sure what you're really doing.

Satellite links come in various flavors and bandwidths. The higher
speed and price services are VERY reliable and robust (whatever that
means). However, all geosynchronous satellite links have a guaranteed
600msec latency, which ruins VoIP, VPN's, and streaming content.
You're customers may not like that.

Also, if you're gonna deliver routable IP's, you're going to need
about 16 Class C IP blocks from ARIN. These are not cheap or easy to
get. You can deliver RFC-1918 private LAN IP's and map a routable IP
to the private IP address, but eventually you'll need to beg ARIN for
more IP's. Since you're certainly going to need multiple backhauls
into the internet (multihome), and probably through multiple providers
(to prevent a single point of failure), you'll probably need to do
BGP4 routing. That means you'll also need an AS number from ARIN.
http://www.arin.net
Here's how it works:
http://www.arin.net/library/training/isp_initial/index....
No, it's not a Fisher Price Monopoly game in disguise. (Drag mouse
over each box to see comments).

With 3,000 users, support will be an issue. There are various rules
of thumb for estimating the support load, but my guess is every
customer will call about 4 times a year, which works out to between 33
and 60 calls per day (depending upon whether you're open 200 or 365
days per year). That isn't too horrible but you will need to
accommodate the support call load or you will have a torchlight parade
of angry customers at your castle door.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 AE6KS 831-336-2558
Anonymous
September 7, 2004 12:49:53 AM

Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

The biggest challenge will come if you want EACH to have their OWN IP
address! I believe you are then into Class A networks and they can be
VERY expensive!
With a few routers though you should be able to get them into a shared
network similar to those home users use. I personally only have 1 IP
address but have 17 computers behind it. Not all computers access the
network at the same time so the lag is minimal.

I have 1 router that is both wired and wireless and I also have 2
Access Points(AP) plugged into it, they happen to be bridged but that
is not necessary. Since they are bridged the second has a hub plugged
into it giving me remote access that is wired to the AP and then
wireless to the router itself.

On 6 Sep 2004 09:47:19 -0700, jacob_chaney@hotmail.com (Jacobs
Scooter) wrote:

>Does anyone here know if it's even possible to setup a wirless network
>with enough coverage, range and speed for 3000+ people? This is a
>rural midwestern town with no DSL or Cable broadband access that has a
>festival every fall and we are considering offering wireless access to
>each of the 3000+ vendors for credit card processing, online catalog
>previewing etc.
>
>We are aware of the new WiMax standard but are looking for a solution
>that doesn't involved the higher costs of installing WiMax towers etc.
>Maybe satellite but I heard because of latency issues that these
>connections aren't as robust we need them to be.
>
>Please feel free to post here or contact me offlist.
>Thank you all for any feedback.
Related resources
Anonymous
September 9, 2004 8:50:23 AM

Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

"Jacobs Scooter" <jacob_chaney@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:298e35bd.0409060847.74f472@posting.google.com...
> Does anyone here know if it's even possible to setup a wirless network
> with enough coverage, range and speed for 3000+ people? This is a
> rural midwestern town with no DSL or Cable broadband access that has a
> festival every fall and we are considering offering wireless access to
> each of the 3000+ vendors for credit card processing, online catalog
> previewing etc.
I can't imagine a festival with 3,000 vendors -
Maybe 3,000 attendees ?
Are you thinking of THIS fall - yeah right -
What are you really trolling for ?? looking for starting a rural ISP ?
If so, then just say so - as a permanent wireless network
is very different than your so called festival -

And if you have no easy access like DSL or Cable,
then what are you going to use for your Internet connection ?
with lead times for lines, equipment, etc

I've seen wireless credit card terminals, but these are usually
cellular,
so how are you going to offer wireless CC processing ?
and with what terminal equipment -
These are just some of the basic questions -
mostly equipment and logistics -
Anonymous
September 9, 2004 1:39:22 PM

Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

> I can't imagine a festival with 3,000 vendors -
> Maybe 3,000 attendees ?
> Are you thinking of THIS fall - yeah right -
> What are you really trolling for ?? looking for starting a rural ISP ?
> If so, then just say so - as a permanent wireless network
> is very different than your so called festival -

I take it you've never been to Moultrie Georgia.
That's a little farm implements show, that draws 250,000 people into a city
of 15,635
http://www.sunbeltexpo.com/

Even this is only 1000 exhibitors, but then again, this is "just" a farm
show..

--
KC6ETE Dave's Engineering Page, www.dvanhorn.org
Microcontroller Consultant, specializing in Atmel AVR
Anonymous
September 12, 2004 10:19:44 PM

Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

Thanks for all of the great feedback. I'm really not up to anything
nefarious and my situation is exactly as I described. I would like to
deploy this system in the fall of '05 and this festival draws 2
million people in 10 days through the county and there is one location
that has 3000 vendors selling everything you could possibly imagine.

I don't think I will be able to sign up every single vendor the very
first year of service so the wireless network would just to need to
handle 1000 vendors initially with room for scaling up. Alvarion has
agreed to put me in touch with a reseller who can answer all of my
questions as to feasability, costs, necessary hardware etc.

Would this town be better served by a mesh network? Offering the cc
processing is still another two years away or so.

Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks again for your help and input



"Dave VanHorn" <dvanhorn@cedar.net> wrote in message news:<t82dnfP9HpCG9t3cRVn-iw@comcast.com>...
> > I can't imagine a festival with 3,000 vendors -
> > Maybe 3,000 attendees ?
> > Are you thinking of THIS fall - yeah right -
> > What are you really trolling for ?? looking for starting a rural ISP ?
> > If so, then just say so - as a permanent wireless network
> > is very different than your so called festival -
>
> I take it you've never been to Moultrie Georgia.
> That's a little farm implements show, that draws 250,000 people into a city
> of 15,635
> http://www.sunbeltexpo.com/
>
> Even this is only 1000 exhibitors, but then again, this is "just" a farm
> show..
Anonymous
September 13, 2004 4:01:20 AM

Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

Why do you see deferring the CC processing?
It's certainly not that much of a load, a 100-200 byte packets.

--
KC6ETE Dave's Engineering Page, www.dvanhorn.org
Microcontroller Consultant, specializing in Atmel AVR
Anonymous
September 13, 2004 4:45:26 PM

Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

Well we will probably want to defer offering credit card processing
services until we determine what type of network will work best for
us. We're still trying to determine if either a fixed wireless or mesh
network will work best for us. I've been reading a lot about mesh
networks from firetide's website but in either case we are still
working out how we are going to tap an internet backbone in a rural
midwestern town (pop: 30).

In addition to selling our wireless internet service we will also want
to rent wireless credit card terminals that will be completely
interoperable with whatever network we design.

Do you have any other suggestions or advice? Do you think the idea of
an outdoor wifi hotzone spanning at least 2 miles, accomodating 3000+
simultaneous users at speeds of at least 750kpbs up/down is possible?
I'm very encouraged by what I've been reading online but I'm looking
for testimonials.

"Dave VanHorn" <dvanhorn@cedar.net> wrote in message news:<MP6dnQGKwKsJtNjcRVn-sg@comcast.com>...
> Why do you see deferring the CC processing?
> It's certainly not that much of a load, a 100-200 byte packets.
!