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Steve Jobs' Thoughts on Flash: It Sucks for Mobile

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April 30, 2010 12:53:32 AM

Sigh....Oh steve, when will you learn that you are not a god?
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28
April 30, 2010 12:54:02 AM

I have my own thoughts about Steve boy but it was interesting to read where other people thought this was a pretty good talk by him but certainly involved "RDF".

(check what Wikipedia has to say about "RDF":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality_distortion_field
)
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April 30, 2010 12:54:46 AM

LOL @ the evil pic :D 
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April 30, 2010 12:58:26 AM

What the man said is probably right.
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April 30, 2010 1:02:27 AM

As much as I dislike apple for proprietary software, I think he may have a point... at least I'm getting the new droid, which can do flash AND everything else.
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April 30, 2010 1:03:24 AM

the only legit reason i see Steve has, is the fact that because there is no mouse/rollover concept on the iphone, then most flash would have to be rewritten to fit the iphone standards. but, i still think the iphone needs to find a way to work with flash. I honestly believe that is the #1 most important thing that is holding the iphone back from being the best phone on the market for many years to come.
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April 30, 2010 1:03:56 AM

Mr. Jobs,
When the H.264 had become open web standard?! Last time I check H.264 requires licence fee and Open Source Vendors can't get licence if they want to implement it as Open Source Library. There is free as beer and free as liberty codec called Ogg Theora, but Apple don't support it either. Not only that but the Apples is using their membership in W3C to block the adoption of the Ogg Theora as part of the HTML5 standard. In fact this is the main reason why the the HTML5 was delayed so long.
Corporate hypocrisy.
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April 30, 2010 1:04:33 AM

DXwarlocks Thoughts on Steve Jobs/Apple: It Sucks for Mobile
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April 30, 2010 1:04:38 AM

"For example, many Flash websites rely on “rollovers”, which pop up menus or other elements when the mouse arrow hovers over a specific spot. Apple’s revolutionary multi-touch interface doesn’t use a mouse, and there is no concept of a rollover."

so isnt that a flaw of the OS not having the concept of a rollover, and not flash for having that feature?
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Anonymous
April 30, 2010 1:07:45 AM

hahahahahaha open... as long as it's an open standard created by apple.......
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April 30, 2010 1:13:44 AM

DXWarlock"For example, many Flash websites rely on “rollovers”, which pop up menus or other elements when the mouse arrow hovers over a specific spot. Apple’s revolutionary multi-touch interface doesn’t use a mouse, and there is no concept of a rollover."so isnt that a flaw of the OS not having the concept of a rollover, and not flash for having that feature?


I don't get that one because JavaScript supports rollover and he specific says they accept JavaScript...
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April 30, 2010 1:14:37 AM

maybe it isn't that apple is to good for flash, its that flash is to good for apple.


TAKE THAT SOCIETY!!
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April 30, 2010 1:17:14 AM

Talk about being a hypocrite.
OSX != Open
Apple's latest limitation of software devs != open
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April 30, 2010 1:20:10 AM

(check what Wikipedia has to say about "RDF":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality_distortion_field
)

I had never seen this before. It is exactly what I have been saying about apple for the last 5 years. Why are people still buying into this propoganda.
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April 30, 2010 1:21:06 AM

Oh quit your complaining; just because you use HTML5 and CSS doesn't mean you're any better than Adobe. Have you not noticed how well Flash has caught on, and how widely it's been used, despite it's downfalls, for a decade now? How many articles has there been saying that Steve Jobs doesn't like flash. 3, 4 now?
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April 30, 2010 1:22:02 AM

digiexWhat the man said is probably right.

You are correct. Although people will flame his views, if they bothered to read it and understand it for what it is and not let their 'i hate apple' views get in the way, they will realise that what he said is very correct, although there is a little marketing in there :p 
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April 30, 2010 1:28:24 AM

Steve jobs is so full of garbage it's not even funny, starting with "Adobe claims that we are a closed system, and that Flash is open, but in fact the opposite is true." The entire article jobs wrote is a pile of crap.

Apple: Redefining hypocracy daily.
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April 30, 2010 1:29:39 AM

Old big Blue is taking notes....

If I ever get my own company started up if the banks and the retards in Washington don't mess things up more than they are I wont be supporting any thing Apple based. Its the software and their increasing worsening ethics. I don't like how they treat their customers. I don't like how they treat their employees. I loathe the products and how they think they know what every one wants, no need for citation past articles on here are more than enough. Over all Apple is a company to do business with from a consumer stand point and from a corporate stand point. Eventually their fan base will get bored and discover Linux knowing how windows isn't that much better than osx. The only thing I can had to them is aesthetics and their products are idiot proof. That is why pre schools use macs from pre-k up till 4th grade and windows from there on up till 12th grade.
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April 30, 2010 1:39:50 AM

the next day Steve Jobs declares he is god, then is killed by lightning. apple stocks skyrocket.
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April 30, 2010 1:43:46 AM

Shockingly enough, I agree with everything Jobs said except for two things:

- H.264 is not "open," it requires a license.
- His sixth point. Who cares if a developer has a sub-par app. If it is so sub-par, then the app won't sell, and if it doesn't sell then maybe the developer will "see the light" and not use the 3rd party development tool. Simple as that.

And for all of those people who flamed Jobs about not having an many open source products, he did specifically say that he was referring to the web being open, not other products. And Webkit is indeed open, primarily developed by Apple (and Google). I mean, don't get me wrong, I don't like him any more than the rest of you, but read carefully next time.
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April 30, 2010 1:51:09 AM

1) I think hes right in general.
2) Apple isn't really known as a supporter of open standards themselves, why i personally dont think they:
A) have earned their right to bitch about this matter
B) really trying to offer a real solution to the problem

Id gladly support him/apple if they were earnest and also tried to represent "us" consumers. As it is, they are just trying to protect themselves.

/Suras
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April 30, 2010 1:59:39 AM

This is not about proprietary Apple hardware, app store or iPhone marketing, it is about the Web and the tools used to create the content and content delivery.
The Web, unlike Apple's proprietary offerings, which, should you need reminding, no one is forced to purchase, belongs to everyone. The Web (yes, that's constructed by us) will benefit from open HTML 5 and video codecs (one of which, H.264, is fee free until at least 2015 and could be free for a further five years beyond that date). This may allow enough time for a truly open source video codec to be developed and tested. Robustness will be critical. Ogg is not currently up to much, H.264 is a far better standard at this point in time. Flash is a proprietary plug-in, buggy and a perennial security risk. Do any of you really want critical aspects of the Web to be in the hands of Apple, Microsoft, Google, Adobe? That's all Steve Jobs is saying. He sees a better web experience for everyone if no one company controls how content is delivered. The rest is about how competitors best to use the "open" tools as leverage to make this happen.
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April 30, 2010 2:02:49 AM

well if apple supports flash, then all the M$ will want silverlight support too... html5 is a *good* thing; I've started converting my apps to use html5/canvas type approaches, have you?
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April 30, 2010 2:16:57 AM

Steve advocates HTML5 and tells everyone to switch their videos to that. Then he himself wants us to run a bloated proprietary software to view videos on his Apple sites. Quicktime not only doesn't have fullscreen but has to be downloaded with iTunes - both of which use so much of my PC's resources that it makes Flash live up to its name.
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April 30, 2010 2:19:27 AM

And as usual ladies and gents the apple is rotten to its core and cries like a little girl.

Apple's motivation is simple. Find the most technophobic retards on the face of the earth. Brain wash them into believing you are a GoD. Then exploit them.
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April 30, 2010 2:53:39 AM

That picture could be the next caption contest.
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April 30, 2010 2:55:26 AM

pyroghoztAnd as usual ladies and gents the apple is rotten to itscore and cries like a little girl.Apple's motivation is simple. Find the most technophobic retards on the face of the earth. Brain wash them into believing you are a GoD. Then exploit them.


Your arrogance is almost equal to your ignorance, but just shy.
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April 30, 2010 3:04:00 AM

I have been using flash on my windows mobile pocket pc for some time and it works fine, for drop down menus, simply press and wiggle slightly and the menu comes down then click on what you want

flash works fine for mobile devices, the main problem is the battery life, it is the killer of batteries. When using a flash intensive site, it will hold the devices CPU usage between 90-100% if you are streaming flash content, you will have the CPU pulling pretty much it's full power draw. then depending on the signal strength, the wifi will by using it's full low power mode or if the wifi radio supports it, it will kick into it's high power mode (happens if while connected to an ap, the signal is weak and the available bandwidth is being saturated, it will boost the power in order to try and connect at a faster rate, this often increases the power usage of the wifi radio making it about 6-7 times higher than the low power mode (at least in the pocket pc's)

if apple mobile devices were to support flash, it will cause you to have horrid battery life, and since they like using internal non user accessible batteries, you don't have the option of taking out the stock battery and getting a extended battery that adds like nearly an extra inch to the devices thickness.

The problem I have with apple and this is that they should at least give the option for users to do it. Simply put a warning about enabling flash then let users use it.

just because something can have negative outcomes does not mean you should completely disallow it.

Look at PC's, if you wanted to, you can crank the voltages really high and kill your CPU, these companies simply put a warning and give you freedom on what you want to do.

When driving or riding a bike, you risk crashing and getting injured or killed, does this mean that the government should ban all use of of these vehicles or simply let people know the risks and with that knowledge, let them drive?

from my experience, flash will generally cut your battery life in half (or more) but I would rather have flash than not have it. I am loosing battery life but the experience is worth it.

also, 90%+ of the web uses flash, just because HTML 5 is out, does not mean that they will switch. remember that it is a different language, most people will not want to learn it. also most people who have websites don't know much about it, they generally hire people to do it, so what are the odds of these people spending tons of money in hiring a graphic designer and a web dev team to move their website from flash to html5 just to satisfy a few iphone users?

also with both flash and html5, mouse over menus are still used because it is convenient for everyone with a mouse and keyboard, this will not go away any tome soon, even with html5

Also gaming in html 5 is harder than with flash, it requires a lot more work and a lot more dependencies in order to function, Apple is counting on this as due to these dependencies, it will be nearly impossible to get a very functional app on the iphone or ipad, this way it will not conflict with apples app store.

HTML5 is new tech but it is not a replacement for flash, doing HTML5 vs flash is like arguing mac vs pc, there is no winning it.


Also for gaming, html5 has a larger performance hit than flash, but it handles video streaming better in terms of CPU usage, but then again, it lacks some of the flash features such as deblocking, most html5 streaming videos look more pixelated and are not as sharp as flash video streams. While this may change in the future, currently HTML5 lacks postprocessing. many websites who lack the limit less bandwidth of companies like google will not be able to handle the bandwidth load of HTML5 because they will be forced to use higher quality content instead of relying on post processing.

Adobe is currently facing this problem right now. They added hardware acceleration of h.264 but then they lost the ability to support a lot of the post processing that goes on in flash videos, (which is why if you use the beta flash player and enable the hardware acceleration, it uses less CPU usage but then the video quality also goes down. Fixing this will prove to be a challenge)
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April 30, 2010 3:16:21 AM

I'm sorry to say that Steve is not spreading FUD for once. Yay HTML5!
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April 30, 2010 3:20:53 AM

most web applications have to be rewritten for mobile phones anyways... low res screens, poor bandwidth, and of course the gimped input...

I've never heard the term RDF before... it applies more to the ipad than this... this is just... this is... idk wtf this is about... O_o
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April 30, 2010 3:23:22 AM

Flash Sucks!? so what!? it will eventually get better!
thats what Adobe Company are for, thats what developers are for.

they make it better, not make it worst.
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April 30, 2010 3:26:06 AM

shunning the door to flash in the first place is apple's plain and simple discrimination.
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April 30, 2010 5:09:38 AM

That is understandable from a business aspect.
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Anonymous
April 30, 2010 6:11:54 AM

blah blah blah more apple .

Steve really should pull his head out of his proverbial. The no flash thing is BS as is his preschool grade unsolicited retort in the "open letter".
Its just pathetic.
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Anonymous
April 30, 2010 6:35:57 AM

Apple is blocking innovation by blocking developers, how many flash developers are there? What percentage of the internet uses flash again? So that's how many developers blocked from releasing to Apple mobile devices?

Apple, how about you work with Adobe and get flash onto your devices before every single one of your competitors does it first? I tend to lose faith in companies that only make excuses instead of doing the hard work we used to expect from them.

There are a million solutions to this problem, Apple has what, 40 billion in cash? Pay Adobe to make a variation of flash (i.e. Flash lite?) that works under your rules, even I can solve this problem. WTF.
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April 30, 2010 7:37:08 AM

steve jobs is
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April 30, 2010 10:48:19 AM

Yay for Apple. I live in SA and there are hardly any Mac products being used here, but I like that Apple is saying that Adobe is slow and lazy. He has balls to confront Adobe even tho their products are possibly one of the reasons people buy Macs. If you are all so for flash, have it. All I see flash being used for is to fill sites with adverts. Can't remember when last I "really" needed to click a flash object (except during the penguin smacking days). Oh and Ogg Theora... WTFLOL. You are joking right? I think I want a quality experience. Not some open soucre, forked to hell P.O.S. freetard app.
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April 30, 2010 11:17:19 AM

If you want flash on an iwhatever then why don't you just install skyfire, oh thats right i forgot about the whole "only if jobs allows it" thing. even if apple made decent products i would still not buy them just for that fact.

I never heard of RDF before but fits apple to a tee (Small advances are applauded as breakthroughs)
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April 30, 2010 11:46:30 AM

efecksApple is blocking innovation by blocking developers, how many flash developers are there? What percentage of the internet uses flash again? So that's how many developers blocked from releasing to Apple mobile devices?Apple, how about you work with Adobe and get flash onto your devices before every single one of your competitors does it first? I tend to lose faith in companies that only make excuses instead of doing the hard work we used to expect from them. There are a million solutions to this problem, Apple has what, 40 billion in cash? Pay Adobe to make a variation of flash (i.e. Flash lite?) that works under your rules, even I can solve this problem. WTF.

there many browser makers who want to make browsers for the iphone and ipad that support flash but apple never allows their app to be submitted.
they don't want a browser with more features than their current browser. apple allowed opera mini because even though it is faster, it has less features so it doesn't defeat the purpose of their original browser.

if apple wanted flash, they could easily do it. or let one of the many other groups out there do it. But for some reason there too lazy to even do that and instead make excuses, and too snobby to allow any competition of any of their products.
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April 30, 2010 12:12:18 PM

Its simple really. If flash is allowed on apple devices, then there will be no more need for an app store since a good amount of apps are easily emulated by a bunch of websites out there.
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April 30, 2010 12:25:28 PM

"Adobe’s Flash products are 100% proprietary."

gee...and how many different computers can your OS be installed to?

Hello, Pot...Meet Kettle!
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April 30, 2010 12:32:18 PM

1700 words, thats a lot of talk

But who is he trying to convince, us or himself?
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April 30, 2010 12:43:55 PM

schmichSteve advocates HTML5 and tells everyone to switch their videos to that. Then he himself wants us to run a bloated proprietary software to view videos on his Apple sites. Quicktime not only doesn't have fullscreen but has to be downloaded with iTunes - both of which use so much of my PC's resources that it makes Flash live up to its name.


iTunes is the worst bloatware ever. Good thing I have 12 GB of RAM and a very powerfull OCed machine (ie: not a MAC).
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April 30, 2010 1:09:25 PM

His opinion becomes moot at his first point and made me almost fall out of my chair laughing. Apple complaining about proprietary software?
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April 30, 2010 1:39:52 PM

Dear Steve,

I have been recently upset by your comments and I wanted to let you know how much they have hurt me. All I wanted to do was find a way to let people watch videos and play games for free. After I spent my precious time creating several programs for authoring content, that many developers thought would only work on your machines ("I bought a Mac because I want to use Photoshop")and therefore filled your coffers, you decided to stab me in the back.
We are still selling copies of software that can cost more than one of your computers that enable people to generate websites with Flash content, but then you prevent users of your portable devices from viewing the content afterwards.
Anyway, I just wanted to let you know how much you have hurt my feelings and how disappointed I am by your cold and callous attitude. You have even gone as far as to bad mouth me to everyone so they all think that I have done something wrong when in fact it is you wanting to make money in the App store. You never respected my, or indeed anyone else and you are selfish and greedy. I hate you and I don't ever want to speak to you again.

Without love,

Adobe

P.S.

I have been seeing Windows behind your back for years. They accept me for who I am, I even installed on it at the same time I was installed on you. They are much more understanding and considerate. I hope any other software you are seeing right now finds out how much of a pig you are too.
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April 30, 2010 1:42:56 PM

Another Adobe claim is that Apple devices cannot play Flash games. This is true. Fortunately, there are over 50,000 games and entertainment titles on the App Store, and many of them are free. There are more games and entertainment titles available for iPhone, iPod and iPad than for any other platform in the world.

of which 10 000 is demos that is free until you want the full game, 10 000 is product tie in, 20 000 is paid for games and 10 000 are truely free games

of which only a few are good and up to polish as the good flash games found on the net
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April 30, 2010 1:53:57 PM

"We also know first hand that Flash is the number one reason Macs crash."

Whoa, wait a second. Macs crash? I thought they were the perfect machines that never had any problems and "just worked".
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April 30, 2010 2:02:41 PM

My thoughts on apple: It sucks for everything except being "trendy" and making mix tapes for your friends.

TommySchiTunes is the worst bloatware ever. Good thing I have 12 GB of RAM and a very powerfull OCed machine (ie: not a MAC).


You may want to consider an upgrade if you want to run itunes.
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