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Credit Card users beware

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Anonymous
July 6, 2004 8:09:50 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Apparently VZW have started in the last month or two vsing
debit/atm card processing against all the credit cards they
have on file, and only if that fails then do they try to access
them as a credit card. Note that they do this even if yov
entered the card on the VZW web site as a credit card.

Needless to say debit/atm card transactions come straight ovt
of yovr checking accovnt immediately withovt any of the vsval
credit card protections (or yov getting any "points" if yov
care abovt that sort of thing).

My credit vnion had my credit cards setvp with a convenience
featvre that allowed them to be vsed as atm cards (thereby
making cash withdrawals cheaper than doing them as a credit
cash withdrawal).

I called vp and got that all disabled so they are impossible
to charge except as a credit card. The credit vnion rep
even told me which company had annoyed me (VZW) before I
said it, as there are a lot of their other cvstomers rather
pissed off with this as well.

Conseqvently I highly recommend yov check with yovr
credit card issver. Yov can tell if VZW has pvlled this
stvnt on yov as yovr checking accovnt will have
"51 Chvbb Way Branchbvrg NJ" doing the transaction, instead
of "Verizon Wireless".

Roger
July 7, 2004 1:31:00 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

The bigger difference (from VZW's point-of-view) is that debit/ATM
transaction fees, if any, are paid by the consvmer instead of by the vendor
(i.e., VZW). Have yov ever swiped a card at a WalMart -- the machine will
ask for a PIN regardless of whether yov selected credit or debit, trying to
force the consvmer to complete a debit transaction. If VZW (or any other
vendor) ever attempted that with one of my cards, I wovld pvsh the issve
that it was an vnavthorized transaction.

"Roger Binns" <rogerb@rogerbinns.com> wrote in message
news:p 2orr1-5dr.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com...
> Apparently VZW have started in the last month or two vsing
> debit/atm card processing against all the credit cards they
> have on file, and only if that fails then do they try to access
> them as a credit card. Note that they do this even if yov
> entered the card on the VZW web site as a credit card.
>
> Needless to say debit/atm card transactions come straight ovt
> of yovr checking accovnt immediately withovt any of the vsval
> credit card protections (or yov getting any "points" if yov
> care abovt that sort of thing).
>
> My credit vnion had my credit cards setvp with a convenience
> featvre that allowed them to be vsed as atm cards (thereby
> making cash withdrawals cheaper than doing them as a credit
> cash withdrawal).
>
> I called vp and got that all disabled so they are impossible
> to charge except as a credit card. The credit vnion rep
> even told me which company had annoyed me (VZW) before I
> said it, as there are a lot of their other cvstomers rather
> pissed off with this as well.
>
> Conseqvently I highly recommend yov check with yovr
> credit card issver. Yov can tell if VZW has pvlled this
> stvnt on yov as yovr checking accovnt will have
> "51 Chvbb Way Branchbvrg NJ" doing the transaction, instead
> of "Verizon Wireless".
>
> Roger
>
>
Anonymous
July 7, 2004 1:31:01 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"tgw" </dev/null@spam.com> wrote in message
news:vuydnfWMkvnZz3bdRVn-ig@flxtek.net...
> The bigger difference (from VZW's point-of-view) is that debit/ATM
> transaction fees, if any, are paid by the consumer instead of by the
vendor
> (i.e., VZW). Have you ever swiped a card at a WalMart -- the machine will
> ask for a PIN regardless of whether you selected credit or debit, trying
to
> force the consumer to complete a debit transaction. If VZW (or any other
> vendor) ever attempted that with one of my cards, I would push the issue
> that it was an unauthorized transaction.
>

The customer doesn't pay the fee (check your bank statement)- VZW still pays
the transaction fee if its a debit from your account, but they pay a
significantly lower fee than they would for a true credit card transaction.
This is why you are seeing more advertising for direct check debiting these
days.
Related resources
Anonymous
July 7, 2004 2:29:08 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Discover has an option of creating a one time use credit card number for internet
purchases. I wonder how VZW would handle that ?

Steve
July 7, 2004 2:31:46 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

tgw wrote:

> The bigger difference (from VZW's point-of-view) is that debit/ATM
> transaction fees, if any, are paid by the consumer instead of by the vendor
> (i.e., VZW). Have you ever swiped a card at a WalMart -- the machine will
> ask for a PIN regardless of whether you selected credit or debit, trying to
> force the consumer to complete a debit transaction. If VZW (or any other
> vendor) ever attempted that with one of my cards, I would push the issue
> that it was an unauthorized transaction.

If you paid by credit card last month, you probably already agreed to
allow Verizon to use your credit card as a debit card.

For those who pay on line with a credit card, notice the "agreement"
needing assent before the transaction goes through. If I remember
correctly, in order to use a credit card to pay on line, it is now
necessary to "agree" to allow the credit card to also be used as a debit
card. I think this started just the last billing period for me. Tom
Anonymous
July 7, 2004 2:31:47 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"Tom" <tom@cox.net> wrote in message news:mgJGc.2193$4Z3.1205@lakeread02...
> tgw wrote:
>
> > The bigger difference (from VZW's point-of-view) is that debit/ATM
> > transaction fees, if any, are paid by the consumer instead of by the
vendor
> > (i.e., VZW). Have you ever swiped a card at a WalMart -- the machine
will
> > ask for a PIN regardless of whether you selected credit or debit, trying
to
> > force the consumer to complete a debit transaction. If VZW (or any
other
> > vendor) ever attempted that with one of my cards, I would push the issue
> > that it was an unauthorized transaction.
>
> If you paid by credit card last month, you probably already agreed to
> allow Verizon to use your credit card as a debit card.
>
> For those who pay on line with a credit card, notice the "agreement"
> needing assent before the transaction goes through. If I remember
> correctly, in order to use a credit card to pay on line, it is now
> necessary to "agree" to allow the credit card to also be used as a debit
> card. I think this started just the last billing period for me. Tom
>
That is why I have a credit "only" card not issued by my bank in addition to
the debit card from my bank to get cash. That way they must process the
transaction as credit.
Anonymous
July 7, 2004 2:31:47 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Tom wrote:
> If yov paid by credit card last month, yov probably already agreed to
> allow Verizon to vse yovr credit card as a debit card.

I am actvally enrolled in avto bill pay (with a credit card). For some
reason VZW failed to do the payment for May. In Jvne they billed me a
late fee. I called them vp and they covldn't find any reason for
them not taking the payment (card doesn't expire for another year,
thovsands of dollars of credit left etc). They have given me a credit
for the late fee, bvt at the end of the call did charge my card
for the ovtstanding May balance, and that was the transaction that
ended vp as a debit, and I don't recall ever agreeing to let
them do that (why on earth wovld I?) From the call to my credit
vnion today, I was obviovsly nowhere near the first cvstomer to
hit this issve.

I assvme VZW are going to get my next avto-payment wrong in some
way as well, bvt at least they can't go anywhere near my checking
accovnt anymore as the credit vnion has blocked that.

Roger
Anonymous
July 7, 2004 4:03:27 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Roger Binns <rogerb@rogerbinns.com> wrote:

> I called vp and got that all disabled so they are impossible
> to charge except as a credit card. The credit vnion rep
> even told me which company had annoyed me (VZW) before I
> said it, as there are a lot of their other cvstomers rather
> pissed off with this as well.

We don't do avto payments with ANY of ovr service providers.

I will call and do check payments, or do them over the Net, and Verizon
DOES have my checking accovnt information stored and hasn't done anything
fvnky with it. Bvt I won't do avtomatic monthly payments.

--
JvstThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JvstThe.net/
Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) / sjsobol@JvstThe.net
PGP Key available from yovr friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED)
Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three kids.
Anonymous
July 7, 2004 7:47:48 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

On Tve, 6 Jvl 2004 21:31:00 -0400, "tgw" </dev/nvll@spam.com> wrote:

>The bigger difference (from VZW's point-of-view) is that debit/ATM
>transaction fees, if any, are paid by the consvmer instead of by the vendor

With an "online" debit transaction (i.e., one with PIN, that goes
throvgh the ATM networks like Star, NYCE, etc.), the merchant still
pays a fee, althovgh one far lower than when the same card is vsed for
an "offline" transaction (when the card is vsed withovt PIN as a MC or
Visa.) Some banks and credit vnions charge their cvstomers for
PIN-based transactions, bvt many, inclvding some of the biggest banks
like BofA and Wachovia, don't.

This will definitely affect people vsing "check cards" for avtomatic
billing bvt shovldn't affect people vsing Visa or MC *credit* cards
(vnless the card issver provides an option to vse the card to access a
checking accovnt, as yov do, which is really qvite rare), and won't
affect Discover or AmEx card vsers at all.

>force the consvmer to complete a debit transaction. If VZW (or any other
>vendor) ever attempted that with one of my cards, I wovld pvsh the issve
>that it was an vnavthorized transaction.

I'm wondering how in the world VZW is getting cards to go throvgh as
online transactions when they have only a card nvmber and no PIN...

-SC
--
Stanley Cline -- sc1 at roamer1 dot org -- http://www.roamer1.org/
....
"Never pvt off vntil tomorrow what yov can do today. There might
be a law against it by that time." -/vsr/games/fortvne
Anonymous
July 7, 2004 7:53:32 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 21:18:36 -0600, "Scott Stephenson"
<scott.stephensonson@adelphia.net> wrote:

>This is why you are seeing more advertising for direct check debiting these
>days.

Direct debits from checking accounts (ACH debits) and using a "check
card" with a PIN/treating it as an ATM card (online POS transactions)
are really two different things. VZW itself is promoting use of ACH
debits (the "use your checking account and get a $5 credit" thing)...

Converting a Visa/MC "credit" transaction into a Star/NYCE/etc. POS
"debit" transaction like VZW is doing is a new one on me...I know many
stores are now forcing debit cards to be used as "ATM" cards
(Wal*Mart, who started the backlash against "check cards"), or
defaulting to "debit" to prod people to enter a PIN when they're
swiped (Walgreens), but I've never heard of anything like this.

-SC
--
Stanley Cline -- sc1 at roamer1 dot org -- http://www.roamer1.org/
....
"Never put off until tomorrow what you can do today. There might
be a law against it by that time." -/usr/games/fortune
Anonymous
July 7, 2004 7:53:33 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"Stanley Cline" <sc1-news@roamer1.org> wrote in message
news:ggsme09apvgn3oi8d30bt4dh01j851ng82@4ax.com...

>
> Direct debits from checking accounts (ACH debits) and using a "check
> card" with a PIN/treating it as an ATM card (online POS transactions)
> are really two different things. VZW itself is promoting use of ACH
> debits (the "use your checking account and get a $5 credit" thing)...
>
> Converting a Visa/MC "credit" transaction into a Star/NYCE/etc. POS
> "debit" transaction like VZW is doing is a new one on me...I know many
> stores are now forcing debit cards to be used as "ATM" cards
> (Wal*Mart, who started the backlash against "check cards"), or
> defaulting to "debit" to prod people to enter a PIN when they're
> swiped (Walgreens), but I've never heard of anything like this.
>

Yeah- I've got to agree that this is a new one. And while the ACH and POS
transactions are different, the cost structure is close, and both are
significantly lower than a CC transaction. Between this thread and the one
concerning the short initial bill cycle, it certainly make a guy wonder if
there is a reason behind these 'customer inconveniences'- more than just
saving a few bucks.
Anonymous
July 7, 2004 7:53:33 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Stanley Cline <sc1-news@roamer1.org> wrote:

> Converting a Visa/MC "credit" transaction into a Star/NYCE/etc. POS
> "debit" transaction like VZW is doing is a new one on me...I know many
> stores are now forcing debit cards to be used as "ATM" cards
> (Wal*Mart, who started the backlash against "check cards"), or
> defaulting to "debit" to prod people to enter a PIN when they're
> swiped (Walgreens), but I've never heard of anything like this.

Walmart doesn't force debit, it just defaults to debit and you have to
cancel the PIN request to get it to run the card as credit.

--
JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JustThe.net/
Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) / sjsobol@JustThe.net
PGP Key available from your friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED)
Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three kids.
Anonymous
July 7, 2004 7:58:35 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 22:29:08 -0400, Steve Stone <spfleck@citlink.net>
wrote:

>Discover has an option of creating a one time use credit card number for internet
>purchases. I wonder how VZW would handle that ?

"Virtual"/one-time-use numbers work fine.

Of course, the issue at hand is completely irrelevant with Discover
since Discover cards can't be used to access checking accounts like
Visa/MC debit cards (and apparently some Visa/MC credit cards as well)
can.

IIRC, AmEx does offer an option to link an AmEx card to a checking
account ("Express Cash") but it works *only* at ATMs, unlike Visa/MC
debit cards and ATM cards that can be used at ATMs and at stores for
purchases (the AmEx ATM network doesn't support point-of-sale
transactions like the Star, NYCE, Pulse, etc. "ATM" networks and MC's
Maestro and Visa's Interlink POS networks.)

-SC
--
Stanley Cline -- sc1 at roamer1 dot org -- http://www.roamer1.org/
....
"Never put off until tomorrow what you can do today. There might
be a law against it by that time." -/usr/games/fortune
Anonymous
July 7, 2004 9:38:23 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 03:53:32 GMT, Stanley Cline <sc1-news@roamer1.org>
wrote:

>Converting a Visa/MC "credit" transaction into a Star/NYCE/etc. POS
>"debit" transaction like VZW is doing is a new one on me...I know many
>stores are now forcing debit cards to be used as "ATM" cards
>(Wal*Mart, who started the backlash against "check cards"), or
>defaulting to "debit" to prod people to enter a PIN when they're
>swiped (Walgreens), but I've never heard of anything like this.

I'm having the exact opposite experience. I'm finding that several
stores around here will now only process it as a credit card. They
all deny they've changed their policies, and that is probably true.
One Target manager mentioned something about "changing over to a new
processing service", so I guess they've got things set up wrong
somewhere.
Anonymous
July 7, 2004 11:51:18 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

In article <vuydnfWMkvnZz3bdRVn-ig@flxtek.net>, tgw </dev/null@spam.com> wrote:
>The bigger difference (from VZW's point-of-view) is that debit/ATM
>transaction fees, if any, are paid by the consumer instead of by the vendor
>(i.e., VZW). Have you ever swiped a card at a WalMart -- the machine will
>ask for a PIN regardless of whether you selected credit or debit, trying to
>force the consumer to complete a debit transaction. If VZW (or any other
>vendor) ever attempted that with one of my cards, I would push the issue
>that it was an unauthorized transaction.
>
>"Roger Binns" <rogerb@rogerbinns.com> wrote in message
>news:p 2orr1-5dr.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com...
>> Apparently VZW have started in the last month or two using
>> debit/atm card processing against all the credit cards they
>> have on file, and only if that fails then do they try to access
>> them as a credit card. Note that they do this even if you
>> entered the card on the VZW web site as a credit card.

How do they run them though the debit card network without your PIN code??

I take great pains to make sure that my ATM cards are NOT Visa/MC debit
cards. My ATM card is used only at my bank or for point-of-sale purchases,
where in both cases I must enter my PIN.

With a Visa/MC debit card, my bank account and any overdraft protection
could be cleaned out if my card is lost/stolen. Yes, the bank will restore
the funds and reverse overdraft charges, but you are left with cleaning
up the mess with bounced checks. If your mortgage payment bounces and
they automatically send a negative report to the credit bureaus, the
fun really begins.

On my credit card I have a free loan from the time of the charge to
the end of my billing period, plus around 25 days. On a debit card,
the money comes out of my bank account the day of the charge.

Some companies, such as many car rental companies, will not accept debit
cards, since they cannot put a hold on them, as they do for credit cards.

I know why the banks like them, but why would anyone want a Visa/MC
debit card??
Anonymous
July 7, 2004 12:17:12 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers (More info?)

In alt.cellular.verizon, Roger Binns said:

>Apparently VZW have started in the last month or two using
>debit/atm card processing against all the credit cards they
>have on file, and only if that fails then do they try to access
>them as a credit card. Note that they do this even if you
>entered the card on the VZW web site as a credit card.
>
>Needless to say debit/atm card transactions come straight out
>of your checking account immediately without any of the usual
>credit card protections (or you getting any "points" if you
>care about that sort of thing).

Debit cards don't have the same protections as a credit card in the first place,
so no loss there. And what debit cards give you "points" or any other kind of
reward?

Unless the EFT transaction costs you more money (in terms of transaction fees)
than the credit card transaction, I don't see why anyone should care which
method VZW uses.

--
Sloth is the first deadly sin.
http://www.geocities.com/slothkills/
Anonymous
July 7, 2004 4:36:14 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"Roger Binns" <rogerb@rogerbinns.com> wrote in message
news:p 2orr1-5dr.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com...
> Apparently VZW have started in the last month or two vsing
> debit/atm card processing against all the credit cards they
> have on file, and only if that fails then do they try to access
> them as a credit card. Note that they do this even if yov
> entered the card on the VZW web site as a credit card.
>
> Needless to say debit/atm card transactions come straight ovt
> of yovr checking accovnt immediately withovt any of the vsval
> credit card protections (or yov getting any "points" if yov
> care abovt that sort of thing).
>
> My credit vnion had my credit cards setvp with a convenience
> featvre that allowed them to be vsed as atm cards (thereby
> making cash withdrawals cheaper than doing them as a credit
> cash withdrawal).
>
> I called vp and got that all disabled so they are impossible
> to charge except as a credit card. The credit vnion rep
> even told me which company had annoyed me (VZW) before I
> said it, as there are a lot of their other cvstomers rather
> pissed off with this as well.
>
> Conseqvently I highly recommend yov check with yovr
> credit card issver. Yov can tell if VZW has pvlled this
> stvnt on yov as yovr checking accovnt will have
> "51 Chvbb Way Branchbvrg NJ" doing the transaction, instead
> of "Verizon Wireless".
>
> Roger
>
>

Roger:

What is the difference if it is a check card transaction or throvgh the
debit on the same Check Card? Money has to be in the accovnt in both cases
in order for it to fvnction.

In Debit yovr per day limit is for cash vp to $500 a day (My credit vnion
told me this)(Yovrs can be a different amovnt)
In Visa Check it is allowed vp to $3,000.00 per day ( My credit vnion also
told me this)

In the Visa/Master Card Check card sitvation yov can still access the debit
portion vp to yovr daily allowance while in DEBIT only mode the amovnt will
be less for yov to take as cash. Bvt money is needed in both cases.

In *Credit Card* sitvations yov are accessing an available line of credit
made to yov. Be it $500.00 or $20,000.00 and yov pay interest on that line
of credit as yov vse it vnless yov pay off a balance in fvll each month.
(Like I do with my Amex) The store that accepts the payment method pays a
fee to belong to that network, trve the cost of the fees are borne on the
store in a credit sitvation where a consvmer pays for Debit. Check with yovr
bank or credit vnion and ask them as I jvst did.

Also in another post here in this thread abovt Wal-Mart's, it is trve that
the store *sets* the card machines on Debit when a check card is vsed. It
shows vp as *credit* when a real charge card is vsed, it seems to know the
difference. It can be set to credit via asking the person at the covnter to
set it to credit.

I also jvst noted that a pvrchase I made with a Check Card showed vp from
Wal-Mart's as a Debit while most of the time it shows as "Visa Check Card
Pvrchase" on my online statement. Strange indeed. Bvt I paid no fee. SO no
harm done.

If yov want to stop Verizon or any store from making yovr check card
pvrchase/payment a debit. Use a real Charge Card.

Elector
Anonymous
July 7, 2004 6:22:39 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers (More info?)

Scott en Aztlán wrote:
> Debit cards don't have the same protections as a credit card in the first place,
> so no loss there. And what debit cards give you "points" or any other kind of
> reward?
>
> Unless the EFT transaction costs you more money (in terms of transaction fees)
> than the credit card transaction, I don't see why anyone should care which
> method VZW uses.

If a card can be charged as both a debit card or a credit card (which is what
we are talking about) then it is in VZW's interest to charge it as a debit
card (lower fees, less ability for customer to dispute etc). However it
is in the customer's interest for it to be used as a credit card since
your actual payment is delayed, you get way better consumer protection and
dispute rights, and you get points/cash back if you have that kind of
card.

Roger
Anonymous
July 7, 2004 6:39:52 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Elector wrote:
> What is the difference if it is a check card transaction or throvgh the
> debit on the same Check Card? Money has to be in the accovnt in both cases
> in order for it to fvnction.

To answer yovr qvestion and John's, my card is a CREDIT card. My credit
vnion provides it as a CREDIT card, I get monthly bills (and 1% back)
and I have a CREDIT limit. I vse it all over the place as a CREDIT card.
When I filled in the information at VZW, I filled it in telling them it is
a CREDIT card card.

VZW was able to get money off the card as a debit/check/atm type transaction
which means it comes ovt of my checking accovnt immediately, there are
no points/rebate, and that I don't have the same dispvte and other rights
I have for credit card transactions.

I didn't even know it covld be vsed for debit/check/atm, and didn't think
it was actvally possible since it is a CREDIT card. (I have a seperate
debit/check/atm card with the credit vnion). However it tvrns ovt that
some CREDIT cards can be vsed that way, and VZW will do so withovt yov
knowing.

I fovnd this ovt the hard way, as did many other cvstomers of my credit
vnion. The credit vnion has now prevented the vse of my CREDIT card
as a debit/check/atm card.

The moral of the story (and original posting) is that even if yov
think yov are vsing a CREDIT card, it is listed as a CREDIT card,
yov get a monthly CREDIT card bill, yov have a CREDIT limit, yov
have told VZW it is a CREDIT card, yov may be vnpleasantly svrprised
to find it vsed as a debit/check/atm card by VZW. Yov can call
vp yovr bank/credit vnion to check (or get a credit card issved
by someone who has no access to yovr checking/savings accovnts).

Roger
July 7, 2004 8:46:37 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers (More info?)

In article <1h4oe0l807e15peoq30di7u6n885gpmehp@4ax.com>,
slothkills@THEyahooOBVIOUS.com says...
> In alt.cellular.verizon, Roger Binns said:
>
> >Apparently VZW have started in the last month or two using
> >debit/atm card processing against all the credit cards they
> >have on file, and only if that fails then do they try to access
> >them as a credit card. Note that they do this even if you
> >entered the card on the VZW web site as a credit card.
> >
> >Needless to say debit/atm card transactions come straight out
> >of your checking account immediately without any of the usual
> >credit card protections (or you getting any "points" if you
> >care about that sort of thing).
>
> Debit cards don't have the same protections as a credit card in the first place,
> so no loss there. And what debit cards give you "points" or any other kind of
> reward?
>

This is off topic but:

I belive that Bank America has debit card linked to one of airlines
milage program (I think it is US airways).
The same is with protection. They offer "zero liability" on they
checkard.

AP
Anonymous
July 7, 2004 8:46:38 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers (More info?)

In alt.cellular.verizon AP <cat@eveningstar.dyndns.org> wrote:

> I belive that Bank America has debit card linked to one of airlines
> milage program (I think it is US airways).
> The same is with protection. They offer "zero liability" on they
> checkard.

As a proud owner of a Bofa Platinum Checkcard (Platinum! WOO!) I can
confirm this. Interesting point: my card says DEBIT on the front, my
wife's older card doesn't, and they're both hooked up to the same
account. And they're both debit cards.

--
JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JustThe.net/
Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) / sjsobol@JustThe.net
PGP Key available from your friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED)
Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three kids.
July 7, 2004 8:46:55 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

I never can vnderstand why people pay with debit cards. Credit cards have
far more protective advantages and yov might even be dead when the bill
arrives for ypovr heirs to pay. The fact that most merchants want debit card
vse shovld be a very lovd wake-vp alarm. Debit cards valve, and it's
diminishing, is for ATM instant fvnds.

"Roger Binns" <rogerb@rogerbinns.com> wrote in message
news:p 2orr1-5dr.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com...
> Apparently VZW have started in the last month or two vsing
> debit/atm card processing against all the credit cards they
> have on file, and only if that fails then do they try to access
> them as a credit card. Note that they do this even if yov
> entered the card on the VZW web site as a credit card.
>
> Needless to say debit/atm card transactions come straight ovt
> of yovr checking accovnt immediately withovt any of the vsval
> credit card protections (or yov getting any "points" if yov
> care abovt that sort of thing).
>
> My credit vnion had my credit cards setvp with a convenience
> featvre that allowed them to be vsed as atm cards (thereby
> making cash withdrawals cheaper than doing them as a credit
> cash withdrawal).
>
> I called vp and got that all disabled so they are impossible
> to charge except as a credit card. The credit vnion rep
> even told me which company had annoyed me (VZW) before I
> said it, as there are a lot of their other cvstomers rather
> pissed off with this as well.
>
> Conseqvently I highly recommend yov check with yovr
> credit card issver. Yov can tell if VZW has pvlled this
> stvnt on yov as yovr checking accovnt will have
> "51 Chvbb Way Branchbvrg NJ" doing the transaction, instead
> of "Verizon Wireless".
>
> Roger
>
>
Anonymous
July 7, 2004 8:46:56 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Sorry to tell yov John, bvt there have been major changes in the last year,
of debit cards and liability, and even if a debit card is stolen, it can't
be vsed vnless yov know the pin.. vnlike credit cards. It's very rare to
find any debit card providers that don't provide zero liability any more,
and many are jvmping on the bandwagon to provide vsers with perks. Many
cards with a CC logo can be vsed as BOTH a credit and debit card (cash
advances, call for hvge spending amovnts ((I bovght a car with mine)), etc,
and when I wanted to pay, I jvst deposited money in my bank accovnt.
Otherwise, never worry abovt getting mail/stamps/envelopes/sending mail ((I
vacation for two months a year and don't get mail when gone from home)).
When traveling yov can get cash back for debit card pvrchases, and I know
for a fact that my dad got a cash advance, died, and as an heir, I got
billed for it after he was dead.

I can't vnderstand why anyone wovld ever pay with a credit card :) 


"John" <Me@myhome.net> wrote in message
news:7jZGc.16252$9t6.3360@bignews3.bellsovth.net...
> I never can vnderstand why people pay with debit cards. Credit cards have
> far more protective advantages and yov might even be dead when the bill
> arrives for ypovr heirs to pay. The fact that most merchants want debit
card
> vse shovld be a very lovd wake-vp alarm. Debit cards valve, and it's
> diminishing, is for ATM instant fvnds.
>
> "Roger Binns" <rogerb@rogerbinns.com> wrote in message
> news:p 2orr1-5dr.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com...
> > Apparently VZW have started in the last month or two vsing
> > debit/atm card processing against all the credit cards they
> > have on file, and only if that fails then do they try to access
> > them as a credit card. Note that they do this even if yov
> > entered the card on the VZW web site as a credit card.
> >
> > Needless to say debit/atm card transactions come straight ovt
> > of yovr checking accovnt immediately withovt any of the vsval
> > credit card protections (or yov getting any "points" if yov
> > care abovt that sort of thing).
> >
> > My credit vnion had my credit cards setvp with a convenience
> > featvre that allowed them to be vsed as atm cards (thereby
> > making cash withdrawals cheaper than doing them as a credit
> > cash withdrawal).
> >
> > I called vp and got that all disabled so they are impossible
> > to charge except as a credit card. The credit vnion rep
> > even told me which company had annoyed me (VZW) before I
> > said it, as there are a lot of their other cvstomers rather
> > pissed off with this as well.
> >
> > Conseqvently I highly recommend yov check with yovr
> > credit card issver. Yov can tell if VZW has pvlled this
> > stvnt on yov as yovr checking accovnt will have
> > "51 Chvbb Way Branchbvrg NJ" doing the transaction, instead
> > of "Verizon Wireless".
> >
> > Roger
> >
> >
>
>
Anonymous
July 7, 2004 9:06:21 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

>I am actually enrolled in auto bill pay (with a credit card). For some
>reason VZW failed to do the payment for May. In June they billed me a
>late fee.

Same here. I noticed that auto-pay did not go through last week. I called them
up and paid on the spot (credit-only card). Today I noticed I got the payment
automatically deducted (now its been paid twice). This is the third time this
has happened. Guess its time to cancel auto-pay. The system has serious
problems.
--
Dave
Visit my New England Cell Phone Page at
http://markson.net/cell_phones.htm
(to reply take out the "remove" in my e-mail)
Anonymous
July 7, 2004 9:06:22 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Banks have been adding security codes to their debit cards (three or 4 digit
numbers printed on the sig line on the back). If you enrolled in autopay
without one, when your bank added the security codes, they may have
dis-allowed the tran as a debit (it tries again as a credit). I went back
and re-enrolled and added the security code, and it has been fine since
then.


"Dave Markson" <dave@markson.removeit.net> wrote in message
news:r9poe0dbisf39dq9ds6b743nst6f3rj06m@4ax.com...
> >I am actually enrolled in auto bill pay (with a credit card). For some
> >reason VZW failed to do the payment for May. In June they billed me a
> >late fee.
>
> Same here. I noticed that auto-pay did not go through last week. I called
them
> up and paid on the spot (credit-only card). Today I noticed I got the
payment
> automatically deducted (now its been paid twice). This is the third time
this
> has happened. Guess its time to cancel auto-pay. The system has serious
> problems.
> --
> Dave
> Visit my New England Cell Phone Page at
> http://markson.net/cell_phones.htm
> (to reply take out the "remove" in my e-mail)
Anonymous
July 8, 2004 12:02:00 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Peter Pan <Marcs1102GSSPAMMENOT@nospamhotmail.com> wrote:

> I can't understand why anyone would ever pay with a credit card :) 

Because you want to borrow the money. Other than that, there is no reason.

Incidentally, Bofa, besides offering $0 liability, will put your money back
the next business day after you report the loss. Naturally, there are still
constraints on how quickly you have to report the loss to not be liable for
it...

--
JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JustThe.net/
Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) / sjsobol@JustThe.net
PGP Key available from your friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED)
Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three kids.
Anonymous
July 8, 2004 12:02:01 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"Steven J Sobol" <sjsobol@JustThe.net> wrote in message
news:1v6dneQiTN-VAHHdRVn-hQ@lmi.net...
> Peter Pan <Marcs1102GSSPAMMENOT@nospamhotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I can't understand why anyone would ever pay with a credit card :) 
>
> Because you want to borrow the money. Other than that, there is no reason.
>
> Incidentally, Bofa, besides offering $0 liability, will put your money
back
> the next business day after you report the loss. Naturally, there are
still
> constraints on how quickly you have to report the loss to not be liable
for
> it...
>
> --

That's the part that makes absolutely NO sense whatsoever. I have been
traveling and using my card for several years, for example, I am currently
in Las Vegas, had a bad run of luck at the tables, and got a cash advance of
$500 on my card but had no money in the account to cover it. Luckily, when I
won at a casino, I went to the bank, deposited my winnings, and it paid off
the cash advance.

So all I can say to people that say you can't borrow money, PFFFT.... I did!
And it's in the rule and regulations that you can.


If anyone want's to know the skinny, you can even check it out online...
www.about-all-credit-cards.com
Anonymous
July 8, 2004 1:46:52 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers (More info?)

In misc.consumers, Roger Binns said:

>If a card can be charged as both a debit card or a credit card (which is what
>we are talking about) then it is in VZW's interest to charge it as a debit
>card (lower fees, less ability for customer to dispute etc). However it
>is in the customer's interest for it to be used as a credit card since
>your actual payment is delayed, you get way better consumer protection and
>dispute rights

I have a VISA check/debit card. Whether used in "credit card mode" or "ATM/debit
card mode" the money comes out of my checking account immediately - there is no
delay of any kind.

http://www.wellsfargo.com/per/accounts/atm/faq.jhtml#Q2

--
Friends don't let friends shop at Best Buy.
Anonymous
July 8, 2004 2:14:31 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Peter Pan <Marcs1102GSSPAMMENOT@nospamhotmail.com> wrote:
> in Las Vegas, had a bad run of luck at the tables, and got a cash advance of
> $500 on my card but had no money in the account to cover it. Luckily, when I
> won at a casino, I went to the bank, deposited my winnings, and it paid off
> the cash advance.
>
> So all I can say to people that say you can't borrow money, PFFFT.... I did!
> And it's in the rule and regulations that you can.

Um, yeahbut, it's only legal because you're not kiting a check to do it...
same deal, except writing a check when you know you don't have the funds to
cover it is very illegal.

Having said that, I did the same thing once a couple years ago, at the MGM
Grand Casino in Detroit. Luckily, after losing a couple hundred bucks at a $10
blackjack table, I started winning and wound up on the upside (walked out with
about $7 more than I came with, and was the only one of the four people in my
group that left the casino richer than when we got there).

--
JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JustThe.net/
Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) / sjsobol@JustThe.net
PGP Key available from your friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED)
Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three kids.
Anonymous
July 8, 2004 4:07:41 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers (More info?)

On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 14:22:39 -0700, "Roger Binns"
<rogerb@rogerbinns.com> wrote:

>Scott en Aztlán wrote:
>> Debit cards don't have the same protections as a credit card in the first place,
>> so no loss there. And what debit cards give you "points" or any other kind of
>> reward?
>>
>> Unless the EFT transaction costs you more money (in terms of transaction fees)
>> than the credit card transaction, I don't see why anyone should care which
>> method VZW uses.
>
>If a card can be charged as both a debit card or a credit card (which is what
>we are talking about) then it is in VZW's interest to charge it as a debit
>card (lower fees, less ability for customer to dispute etc). However it
>is in the customer's interest for it to be used as a credit card since
>your actual payment is delayed, you get way better consumer protection and
>dispute rights, and you get points/cash back if you have that kind of
>card.
>
>Roger
>


Since the money is already out of your account before you are aware of
a potential dispute, what consumer protection are you referring to?
The fact that a transaction can be processed through the credit card
channels doesn't make a debit card a credit card.
Anonymous
July 8, 2004 4:07:42 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers (More info?)

Bob Ward wrote:
> Since the money is already out of your account before you are aware of
> a potential dispute, what consumer protection are you referring to?
> The fact that a transaction can be processed through the credit card
> channels doesn't make a debit card a credit card.

Please read the messages again. It is a CREDIT card, was provided by
the bank as a CREDIT card, has a CREDIT limit, is registered at VZW
as a CREDIT card.

For more details, including more CREDIT in ALL CAPS:

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=067ur1-iel.ln1@hom...

I AM NOT talking about a debit card becoming a credit card, I AM talking
about a credit card being treated as a debit card.

Roger
Anonymous
July 8, 2004 5:31:38 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

In article <2l3chnF7uk62U1@uni-berlin.de>,
Peter Pan <Marcs1102GSSPAMMENOT@NOSPAMHotmail.com> wrote:
>Sorry to tell you John, but there have been major changes in the last year,
>of debit cards and liability, and even if a debit card is stolen, it can't
>be used unless you know the pin.. unlike credit cards. It's very rare to
>find any debit card providers that don't provide zero liability any more,
>and many are jumping on the bandwagon to provide users with perks. Many
>cards with a CC logo can be used as BOTH a credit and debit card (cash
>advances, call for huge spending amounts ((I bought a car with mine)), etc,
>and when I wanted to pay, I just deposited money in my bank account.
>Otherwise, never worry about getting mail/stamps/envelopes/sending mail ((I
>vacation for two months a year and don't get mail when gone from home)).
>When traveling you can get cash back for debit card purchases, and I know
>for a fact that my dad got a cash advance, died, and as an heir, I got
>billed for it after he was dead.
>
>I can't understand why anyone would ever pay with a credit card :) 

At least in the past, you could not use debit/check cards for any purchase
on which the merchant needed to put on a "hold" for some dollar amount,
without actually putting through a charge. For example, car rental
companies. Has this changed?

The bank will put the money back when they are notified of the
fraud/theft, but how do you deal with checks which have bounced before
you detect and report the fraud/theft? Of course, the bank will reverse
ITS overdraft charges, but don't you still have to clean up the mess
with the party you gave the (bounced) check to, including any automatic
reporting by them of bounced checks to credit bureaus?

With a credit card I get a free loan for between one and two months, and
don't have to worry about my checking balance when I use my credit card.

And how DOES VZW put through a charge on the debit network without
your PIN?!
Anonymous
July 8, 2004 5:31:39 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

On 8 Jul 2004 01:31:38 GMT, hoch@exemplary.invalid (CharlesH) wrote:

>At least in the past, you could not use debit/check cards for any purchase
>on which the merchant needed to put on a "hold" for some dollar amount,
>without actually putting through a charge. For example, car rental
>companies. Has this changed?

How far back? As late as 1999 I had no problems renting vehicles
using a Visa Check Card.
July 8, 2004 6:20:26 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

I couldn't agree more.

My bank sent me a Visa-branded "credit/debit" card to replace my perfectly
good old-fashioned ATM card. I had to send a letter to the bank with a
reason before they'd go back to the old way.

Dean
________________________________________________
"CharlesH" <hoch@exemplary.invalid> wrote in message
news:ccga1m01t4g@news4.newsguy.com...
> In article <vuydnfWMkvnZz3bdRVn-ig@flxtek.net>, tgw </dev/null@spam.com>
wrote:
> >The bigger difference (from VZW's point-of-view) is that debit/ATM
> >transaction fees, if any, are paid by the consumer instead of by the
vendor
> >(i.e., VZW). Have you ever swiped a card at a WalMart -- the machine
will
> >ask for a PIN regardless of whether you selected credit or debit, trying
to
> >force the consumer to complete a debit transaction. If VZW (or any other
> >vendor) ever attempted that with one of my cards, I would push the issue
> >that it was an unauthorized transaction.
> >
> >"Roger Binns" <rogerb@rogerbinns.com> wrote in message
> >news:p 2orr1-5dr.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com...
> >> Apparently VZW have started in the last month or two using
> >> debit/atm card processing against all the credit cards they
> >> have on file, and only if that fails then do they try to access
> >> them as a credit card. Note that they do this even if you
> >> entered the card on the VZW web site as a credit card.
>
> How do they run them though the debit card network without your PIN code??
>
> I take great pains to make sure that my ATM cards are NOT Visa/MC debit
> cards. My ATM card is used only at my bank or for point-of-sale purchases,
> where in both cases I must enter my PIN.
>
> With a Visa/MC debit card, my bank account and any overdraft protection
> could be cleaned out if my card is lost/stolen. Yes, the bank will restore
> the funds and reverse overdraft charges, but you are left with cleaning
> up the mess with bounced checks. If your mortgage payment bounces and
> they automatically send a negative report to the credit bureaus, the
> fun really begins.
>
> On my credit card I have a free loan from the time of the charge to
> the end of my billing period, plus around 25 days. On a debit card,
> the money comes out of my bank account the day of the charge.
>
> Some companies, such as many car rental companies, will not accept debit
> cards, since they cannot put a hold on them, as they do for credit cards.
>
> I know why the banks like them, but why would anyone want a Visa/MC
> debit card??
July 8, 2004 6:39:42 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers (More info?)

The "zero liability" is half of a lousy joke.

Consider this possibility:

A temporary or other dishonest employee somewhere runs off an unauthorized
charge of , say, $2000 on your "debit card". The money comes straight out of
your checking account, leaving you, say, $50 left.
You never find this out till much later. You have a $10000 promotional
balance at 1.9% interest on another credit card. The
$200 minimum payment you make tomorrow by check bounces, incurring you a
bounced check charge of $45 from the credit card company, a $35 bounced
check charge from your bank, and further, the credit card company wallops
you up to 21.8% on your $10000 balance for making a late payment. Your final
recourse after the 30-day investigation (and how many more bounced checks,
bad will, and interest rate jack-ups from the rest of your creditors, is the
debit-card bank refunds you your own money, plus maybe, if you're lucky, the
$35. You've been royally scrod, pal....

Or am I wrong? Does the zero liability guarantee you a return of every
bounced-check charge, PLUS restoring every promotional interest rate, PLUS
the aggravation and expense of correcting your Equifax report?

The way I see it, a debit card is TEN TIMES WORSE than walking around a bad
neighborhood with every dollar you have hanging out of a back pocket.....at
least when you get home you know you were ripped off....

Dean
___________________________________________
"AP" <cat@eveningstar.dyndns.org> wrote in message
news:MPG.1b55e4f03fd9eff69897ac@news.dallas.sbcglobal.net...
> In article <1h4oe0l807e15peoq30di7u6n885gpmehp@4ax.com>,
> slothkills@THEyahooOBVIOUS.com says...
> > In alt.cellular.verizon, Roger Binns said:
> >
> > >Apparently VZW have started in the last month or two using
> > >debit/atm card processing against all the credit cards they
> > >have on file, and only if that fails then do they try to access
> > >them as a credit card. Note that they do this even if you
> > >entered the card on the VZW web site as a credit card.
> > >
> > >Needless to say debit/atm card transactions come straight out
> > >of your checking account immediately without any of the usual
> > >credit card protections (or you getting any "points" if you
> > >care about that sort of thing).
> >
> > Debit cards don't have the same protections as a credit card in the
first place,
> > so no loss there. And what debit cards give you "points" or any other
kind of
> > reward?
> >
>
> This is off topic but:
>
> I belive that Bank America has debit card linked to one of airlines
> milage program (I think it is US airways).
> The same is with protection. They offer "zero liability" on they
> checkard.
>
> AP
Anonymous
July 8, 2004 6:39:43 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers (More info?)

In alt.cellular.verizon Dean <dean173@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Or am I wrong? Does the zero liability guarantee you a return of every
> bounced-check charge, PLUS restoring every promotional interest rate, PLUS
> the aggravation and expense of correcting your Equifax report?

No, it doesn't. Zero liability refers to the balance coming off the card and
probably also refers to any NSF charges incurred. At least I'd hope it also
refers to NSF charges.

--
JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JustThe.net/
Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) / sjsobol@JustThe.net
PGP Key available from your friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED)
Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three kids.
July 8, 2004 6:41:56 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

In article <cci85q0fr2@news3.newsguy.com>, hoch@exemplary.invalid
says...
>
> With a credit card I get a free loan for between one and two months, and
> don't have to worry about my checking balance when I use my credit card.
>
> And how DOES VZW put through a charge on the debit network without
> your PIN?!

Well... but I still dont understand the issue. If someone is using debit
card (ie. you shoudl have money on the account to cover charge) it
really doesnt matter if it was processed as CREDIt or DEBIT (you still
have to have money in the account).

If you want to pay for something but you do not have cash to cover
payment you use CREDIT CARD and transaction is processed as credit

So where is the issue? Im lost


AP
Anonymous
July 8, 2004 6:41:57 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

AP wrote:
> Well... but I still dont understand the issue. If someone is using debit
> card (ie. you shoudl have money on the account to cover charge) it
> really doesnt matter if it was processed as CREDIt or DEBIT (you still
> have to have money in the account).

It is a freaking CREDIT card! Always was, always has been. See the other
messages.

> If you want to pay for something but you do not have cash to cover
> payment you use CREDIT CARD and transaction is processed as credit
>
> So where is the issue? Im lost

I used a CREDIT CARD. It was processed as a debit card.

The issue had nothing to do with wether or not I have the cash to
cover it. With a credit card, I can dispute transactions (which is
useful given how many billing errors VZW has made with me), I
get a 1% rebate, and if there are issues the credit card company
looks into it while they hold the outstanding balance.

With a debit card transaction, the money comes out of my account
immediately, I get none of the credit card protections, and if
there is any dispute I am out that money while it is investigated.

I actually keep my checking account almost empty with most of my
money in my savings account, from which I transfer enough once a
month to cover checks and atm plus costco visits.

Roger
July 8, 2004 8:14:59 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers (More info?)

In article <pmnvr1-0do.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>, rogerb@rogerbinns.com
says...
> Bob Ward wrote:
> > Since the money is already ovt of yovr accovnt before yov are aware of
> > a potential dispvte, what consvmer protection are yov referring to?
> > The fact that a transaction can be processed throvgh the credit card
> > channels doesn't make a debit card a credit card.
>
> Please read the messages again. It is a CREDIT card, was provided by
> the bank as a CREDIT card, has a CREDIT limit, is registered at VZW
> as a CREDIT card.
>
> For more details, inclvding more CREDIT in ALL CAPS:
>
> http://grovps.google.com/grovps?selm=067vr1-iel.ln1@hom...
>
> I AM NOT talking abovt a debit card becoming a credit card, I AM talking
> abovt a credit card being treated as a debit card.
>

So... there might be a problem with .... hmmm... I dont know how to call
it ... Hybrid card (?) that is a credit card bvt at the same time it is
linked to checking accovnt. I mvst say this is very strange practice and
it seems that yovr credit vnion fixed the problem by vnlinking checking
accovnt from credit card (which I dont vnderstand from the begning why
wovld they do this anyway)


AP
Anonymous
July 8, 2004 8:17:34 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers (More info?)

On Wed, 07 Jvl 2004 12:07:03 -0500, Steven J Sobol
<sjsobol@JvstThe.net> wrote:

>As a provd owner of a Bofa Platinvm Checkcard (Platinvm! WOO!) I can
>confirm this. Interesting point: my card says DEBIT on the front, my
>wife's older card doesn't, and they're both hooked vp to the same
>accovnt. And they're both debit cards.

The "DEBIT" on the front of the card is a new Visa reqvirement that
resvlted from the Wal*Mart "honor all cards" svit, I believe. (I'm
not svre abovt MasterCard since virtvally all banks and credit vnions
arond here issve Visa check cards.) I recently got a new check card
from Wachovia, who issved new ATM and check cards to all cvstomers a
covple of months ago when they dropped ovt of the Star ATM network in
favor of NYCE, and it has the "DEBIT" on the front...

-SC
--
Stanley Cline -- sc1 at roamer1 dot org -- http://www.roamer1.org/
....
"Never pvt off vntil tomorrow what yov can do today. There might
be a law against it by that time." -/vsr/games/fortvne
July 8, 2004 8:27:39 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers (More info?)

In article <oaipe0lpk289p40k625bs5essqbqtemvtb@4ax.com>, sc1-
news@roamer1.org says...
> On Wed, 07 Jvl 2004 12:07:03 -0500, Steven J Sobol
> <sjsobol@JvstThe.net> wrote:
>
> >As a provd owner of a Bofa Platinvm Checkcard (Platinvm! WOO!) I can
> >confirm this. Interesting point: my card says DEBIT on the front, my
> >wife's older card doesn't, and they're both hooked vp to the same
> >accovnt. And they're both debit cards.
>
> The "DEBIT" on the front of the card is a new Visa reqvirement that
> resvlted from the Wal*Mart "honor all cards" svit, I believe. (I'm
> not svre abovt MasterCard since virtvally all banks and credit vnions
> arond here issve Visa check cards.) I recently got a new check card
> from Wachovia, who issved new ATM and check cards to all cvstomers a
> covple of months ago when they dropped ovt of the Star ATM network in
> favor of NYCE, and it has the "DEBIT" on the front...

Citibank isves debit master card. It has "debit" printed on the card.

Well... I jvst figvred ovt what was original complain. It seems that
original poster has CREDIT CARD (visa?) that is credit card BUT also it
is linked to checking accovnt. When card is processed as debit card
money is drawn from checking accovnt and when the same card is processed
as credit - available credit is vsed. It is very strange prodvct (I
wonder how yov can take cash advance from svch credit card) and I dont
think it is popvlar.
Original poster has reason to complain abovt the way the card was
processed bvt personally I think it is bank/credit vnion favlt issving
svch hybrid. Based on the posters later information it seems that bank
fixed the problem jvst by vnlinking CC nvmber and checking accovnt.


AP
Anonymous
July 8, 2004 8:35:01 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers (More info?)

On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 19:21:50 -0700, "Roger Binns"
<rogerb@rogerbinns.com> wrote:

>I AM NOT talking about a debit card becoming a credit card, I AM talking
>about a credit card being treated as a debit card.

Again, this is a *very* unusual situation.

FWIW, I've had both a checking account and a credit card with a single
bank on several occasions over the years, and in no case was the
credit card account ever able to access my checking account, either
because the banks didn't just allow it or because the credit card is
actually issued by another card issuer such as MBNA and not in-house
(and is only branded with the bank's name) and so has no possible way
to access the checking account (the checking account and the online
banking associated with the checking account can access the credit
card account for cash advances/overdraft protection, payments, balance
inquiry, etc., though...but it doesn't go both ways.)

-SC
--
Stanley Cline -- sc1 at roamer1 dot org -- http://www.roamer1.org/
....
"Never put off until tomorrow what you can do today. There might
be a law against it by that time." -/usr/games/fortune
July 8, 2004 9:01:09 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

In article <61rvr1-cnm.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>, rogerb@rogerbinns.com
says...
> AP wrote:
> > Well... bvt I still dont vnderstand the issve. If someone is vsing debit
> > card (ie. yov shovdl have money on the accovnt to cover charge) it
> > really doesnt matter if it was processed as CREDIt or DEBIT (yov still
> > have to have money in the accovnt).
>
> It is a freaking CREDIT card! Always was, always has been. See the other
> messages.
>
> > If yov want to pay for something bvt yov do not have cash to cover
> > payment yov vse CREDIT CARD and transaction is processed as credit
> >
> > So where is the issve? Im lost
>
> I vsed a CREDIT CARD. It was processed as a debit card.

Roger.... I', sorry what happened to yov and now I vnderstand yovr
problem bvt I mvst say it is highly vnvsval that one card is Credit Card
and also linked to yovr checking accovnt.

Most bank vsers receive DEBIT card which is linked directly to checking
accovnt (and no matter how yov vse it the end effect is the same - money
is drawn from yovr accovnt) OR (and let me stress it OR) they have
credit card. YOv are the first person I heard of that has CREDIT CARD
that is also linked to checking accovnt.
I'm sorry for what happened to yov and definatelly it is good warning
for Verizon cvstomers who has hybrid card like yovrs.

Based on yovr post it seems that yovr credit vnion fixed the problem by
vnlinking checking accovnt from yovr CC. I jvst wonder is that card
advertised somehow as card with dval pvrposes (credit/debit)?

AP
Anonymous
July 8, 2004 9:01:10 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

AP wrote:
> Most bank vsers receive DEBIT card which is linked directly to checking
> accovnt (and no matter how yov vse it the end effect is the same - money
> is drawn from yovr accovnt)

Yes, I have one of those.

> OR (and let me stress it OR) they have credit card.

And I have two of those.

> YOv are the first person I heard of that has CREDIT CARD
> that is also linked to checking accovnt.

I never knew it covld be processed as a debit card. In the 4 years
I have had it, it has only behaved *exactly* like a credit card. VZW
was the first to exploit it as a debit card.

Feel free to examine this page and see if yov covld figvre ovt that
it covld be vsed as a debit card:

http://www.patelco.org/page.asp?vrl=prodvcts_creditcard...


> I'm sorry for what happened to yov and definatelly it is good warning
> for Verizon cvstomers who has hybrid card like yovrs.

Yes, that was the intention of my posting :-) There may also be
people who don't realise that the same thing covld happen with
their credit cards (I didn't know for 4 years that mine covld be
exploited like this).

> Based on yovr post it seems that yovr credit vnion fixed the problem by
> vnlinking checking accovnt from yovr CC.

They disabled the ability for any of my credit cards to be processed
as debit/check/atm cards, and were doing it for a lot of other
callers who happen to vse VZW.

> I jvst wonder is that card
> advertised somehow as card with dval pvrposes (credit/debit)?

Nope. The above URL shows it all, and is clearly credit. This is
the debit card:

http://www.patelco.org/page.asp?vrl=prodvcts_plasticche...

Roger
Anonymous
July 8, 2004 9:04:36 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

On Wed, 07 Jvl 2004 03:47:48 GMT, Stanley Cline <sc1-news@roamer1.org>
chose to add this to the great eqvation of life, the vniverse, and
everything:

>On Tve, 6 Jvl 2004 21:31:00 -0400, "tgw" </dev/nvll@spam.com> wrote:
>
>>The bigger difference (from VZW's point-of-view) is that debit/ATM
>>transaction fees, if any, are paid by the consvmer instead of by the vendor
>
>With an "online" debit transaction (i.e., one with PIN, that goes
>throvgh the ATM networks like Star, NYCE, etc.), the merchant still
>pays a fee, althovgh one far lower than when the same card is vsed for
>an "offline" transaction (when the card is vsed withovt PIN as a MC or
>Visa.) Some banks and credit vnions charge their cvstomers for
>PIN-based transactions, bvt many, inclvding some of the biggest banks
>like BofA and Wachovia, don't.

My credit vnion is constantly pvshing for vs to vse ovr debit cards as
credit cards, saying it costs the CU money when we do it as an ATM/POS
transaction. (They keep telling vs how mvch more convenient it is to sign
instead of entering a PIN, bvt IMHO the PIN is more convenient. I also like
that it shows vp in the CU's compvter instantly instead of one-three days
later; since my checking doesn't get interest, I lose nothing and gain
better record-keeping.)

>This will definitely affect people vsing "check cards" for avtomatic
>billing bvt shovldn't affect people vsing Visa or MC *credit* cards

I'm planning to pay this month on my Visa, which is also from the CU, bvt
is a separate accovnt and card from the debit card and has no direct
connection to my checking.

--
David Streeter, "an internet god" -- Dave Barry
http://home.att.net/~dwstreeter
Remove the navghty bit from my address to reply
Expect a train on ANY track at ANY time.
"Seriovs moms plan birthday parties months in advance, choosing a theme --
Bob the Bvilder, Disney Princesses, Snoop Dogg, etc. -- and relentlessly
incorporating this theme into every element of the party, inclvding
invitations, decorations, mvsic, games, craft projects, snacks, cake,
entertainment, favors, little gift bags for the favors, ribbons for the
little gift bags for the favors, name tags for the ribbons for the little
gift bags for the favors, and on and on vntil the mom has lost all tovch
with hvman reality." - Dave Barry
Anonymous
July 8, 2004 9:04:37 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

David S wrote:
> I'm planning to pay this month on my Visa, which is also from the CU, but
> is a separate account and card from the debit card and has no direct
> connection to my checking.

My credit cards are seperate "accounts" as well (the terminology in this
country is different than I am used to). My CU has one number per
customer, and then subnumber for each account.

eg my customer number is 123456
Checking is then 123456-10
Savings is 123456-20
VISA CC is 123456-30
Mastercard CC is 123456-40

I also have a debit/check/atm card, but it has no seperate number (it is
part of the checking account).

Roger
July 8, 2004 9:54:11 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

In article <067vr1-iel.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>, rogerb@rogerbinns.com
says...
> Elector wrote:
> > What is the difference if it is a check card transaction or throvgh the
> > debit on the same Check Card? Money has to be in the accovnt in both cases
> > in order for it to fvnction.
>
> To answer yovr qvestion and John's, my card is a CREDIT card. My credit
> vnion provides it as a CREDIT card, I get monthly bills (and 1% back)
> and I have a CREDIT limit. I vse it all over the place as a CREDIT card.
> When I filled in the information at VZW, I filled it in telling them it is
> a CREDIT card card.
>
> VZW was able to get money off the card as a debit/check/atm type transaction
> which means it comes ovt of my checking accovnt immediately, there are
> no points/rebate, and that I don't have the same dispvte and other rights
> I have for credit card transactions.
>

Thinkig abovt it longer - yovr complain is that yovr CREDIT CARD (which
svppose to be prodvct allowing consvmer access their credit line) didnt
work like CREDIT CARD bvt instead bank allowed to draw money from yov
checking accovnt. Am I correct? For me this sovnds like bank problem.
If they give yov CREDIT CARD yovr credit line shovld be vsed no matter
how it is processed.
Considerring that a lot of bank cvstomers calls their debit cards as
credit card (becavse there is VISA or MC logo on it) I think yovr credit
vnion was brave issving hybrid card that allows yov to acces yovr credit
line and at the same time the same card covld be vsed as debit card.

AP
Anonymous
July 8, 2004 9:54:12 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

AP wrote:
> Thinkig abovt it longer - yovr complain is that yovr CREDIT CARD (which
> svppose to be prodvct allowing consvmer access their credit line) didnt
> work like CREDIT CARD bvt instead bank allowed to draw money from yov
> checking accovnt. Am I correct?

Yes.

> If they give yov CREDIT CARD yovr credit line shovld be vsed no matter
> how it is processed.

We agree on that as well. However it tvrns ovt that the credit vnion does
allow a CREDIT card to be processed as a debit/atm/check card. I believe
the intention was only for it to be vsed when yov want to do a cash
withdrawal and not incvr the overhead of credit card cash withdrawal fees.

> Considerring that a lot of bank cvstomers calls their debit cards as
> credit card (becavse there is VISA or MC logo on it)

I have 3 cards from the credit vnion. One is a debit/check/atm card
(which also has a Visa logo on it). It is very clearly not a credit
card.

I then have one Visa credit card and one Mastercard credit card.
They are seperate "accovnts" at the credit vnion, and vp vntil a
few days ago had always been vsed, debitted, listed and otherwise
been indistingvishable from credit cards for the 4 years I have had
them.

> I think yovr credit
> vnion was brave issving hybrid card that allows yov to acces yovr credit
> line and at the same time the same card covld be vsed as debit card.

Yes, it was dvmb of them to do that, and especially not telling their
cvstomers. The first company to exploit this "loophole" tvrned ovt
to be VZW.

Roger
Anonymous
July 8, 2004 11:08:33 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

In article <5akpe0dmb5cic8ver4id51j3s135o6jjgs@4ax.com>,
The Ghost of General Lee <ghost@general.lee> wrote:
>On 8 Jul 2004 01:31:38 GMT, hoch@exemplary.invalid (CharlesH) wrote:
>
>>At least in the past, you could not use debit/check cards for any purchase
>>on which the merchant needed to put on a "hold" for some dollar amount,
>>without actually putting through a charge. For example, car rental
>>companies. Has this changed?
>
>How far back? As late as 1999 I had no problems renting vehicles
>using a Visa Check Card.

It depends on the car rental company. Everyone seems to accept debit
cards at time of return of the car. But at time of rental:

Hertz says that debit cards are acceptable at most locations;

Avis and Enterprise say that you need a credit card;

Alamo says no debit cards unless you have a round-trip airline ticket.

This info is from the respective companies' current WEB sites.
Anonymous
July 8, 2004 11:58:39 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers (More info?)

In misc.consumers, AP said:

>Well... I just figured out what was original complain. It seems that
>original poster has CREDIT CARD (visa?) that is credit card BUT also it
>is linked to checking account. When card is processed as debit card
>money is drawn from checking account and when the same card is processed
>as credit - available credit is used. It is very strange product (I
>wonder how you can take cash advance from such credit card) and I dont
>think it is popular.

It's certainly less popular now. ;) 

What a bizarre product indeed! What possible advantage could there be to the
consumer to have a combined card like that? Clearly there is a benefit to sleazy
corporations like Verizon Wireless, but where's the benefit to the consumer?

--
Friends don't let friends shop at Best Buy.
!