Beware! Netgear has poor support.

Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

I have requested help a number of times through Netgear's email support
system. They refuse to answer. Also had a poor experience with their phone
support. Their support people are apparently in India and are hard to
understand.
26 answers Last reply
More about beware netgear poor support
  1. Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

    On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:05:33 -0400, "Gary" <HiawathaGary@charter.net>
    wrote:

    >I have requested help a number of times through Netgear's email support
    >system. They refuse to answer. Also had a poor experience with their phone
    >support. Their support people are apparently in India and are hard to
    >understand.

    I bought a Dodge truck. I couldn't figure out how to make it go, so I
    called the factory. They were not very helpful. I couldn't
    understand why they insisted that I learn to drive before they would
    tell my how to fix the engine. Their support was apparently in
    Detroit, where they speak a very strange style of the kings English.
    I don't like Dodge. Maybe if I bought a Ford or Chevy, the factory
    would teach me to drive and fix my engine over the phone.

    So, now that you have registered your complaint against Netgear,
    perhaps some clue as to what's not working, might be helpful? Also,
    some clue as to what you have to work with (hardware list, operating
    systems, versions).


    --
    Jeff Liebermann jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
    150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
    Santa Cruz CA 95060 AE6KS 831-336-2558
  2. Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

    Thank you for responding. The problem is my Netgear WGR614 v4 wireless
    router is blocking one or more websites. The site in question is
    www.usps.com. I have plugged into the cable modem directly and have no
    problem. Telephone support had me try different mtu's to no avail. Finally
    they just gave up and said to call premium support which charges a lot. The
    usps site is the only one I know of being blocked, but how many other less
    frequented sites is it blocking?
    "Jeff Liebermann" <jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us> wrote in message
    news:kd8mk05kuvul5bakj8orqrs13ofc1pfktl@4ax.com...
    > On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:05:33 -0400, "Gary" <HiawathaGary@charter.net>
    > wrote:
    >
    >>I have requested help a number of times through Netgear's email support
    >>system. They refuse to answer. Also had a poor experience with their
    >>phone
    >>support. Their support people are apparently in India and are hard to
    >>understand.
    >
    > I bought a Dodge truck. I couldn't figure out how to make it go, so I
    > called the factory. They were not very helpful. I couldn't
    > understand why they insisted that I learn to drive before they would
    > tell my how to fix the engine. Their support was apparently in
    > Detroit, where they speak a very strange style of the kings English.
    > I don't like Dodge. Maybe if I bought a Ford or Chevy, the factory
    > would teach me to drive and fix my engine over the phone.
    >
    > So, now that you have registered your complaint against Netgear,
    > perhaps some clue as to what's not working, might be helpful? Also,
    > some clue as to what you have to work with (hardware list, operating
    > systems, versions).
    >
    >
    > --
    > Jeff Liebermann jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
    > 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
    > Santa Cruz CA 95060 AE6KS 831-336-2558
  3. Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

    Not sure how or why they'd pick on one site. My Netgear FWAG114 has no
    such problem. The only blocked sites are the ones I set it block.

    Try a different browser and/or OS.

    Gary wrote:
    > Thank you for responding. The problem is my Netgear WGR614 v4 wireless
    > router is blocking one or more websites. The site in question is
    > www.usps.com. I have plugged into the cable modem directly and have no
    > problem. Telephone support had me try different mtu's to no avail. Finally
    > they just gave up and said to call premium support which charges a lot. The
    > usps site is the only one I know of being blocked, but how many other less
    > frequented sites is it blocking?
    > "Jeff Liebermann" <jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us> wrote in message
    > news:kd8mk05kuvul5bakj8orqrs13ofc1pfktl@4ax.com...
    >
    >>On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:05:33 -0400, "Gary" <HiawathaGary@charter.net>
    >>wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>I have requested help a number of times through Netgear's email support
    >>>system. They refuse to answer. Also had a poor experience with their
    >>>phone
    >>>support. Their support people are apparently in India and are hard to
    >>>understand.
    >>
    >>I bought a Dodge truck. I couldn't figure out how to make it go, so I
    >>called the factory. They were not very helpful. I couldn't
    >>understand why they insisted that I learn to drive before they would
    >>tell my how to fix the engine. Their support was apparently in
    >>Detroit, where they speak a very strange style of the kings English.
    >>I don't like Dodge. Maybe if I bought a Ford or Chevy, the factory
    >>would teach me to drive and fix my engine over the phone.
    >>
    >>So, now that you have registered your complaint against Netgear,
    >>perhaps some clue as to what's not working, might be helpful? Also,
    >>some clue as to what you have to work with (hardware list, operating
    >>systems, versions).
    >>
    >>
    >>--
    >>Jeff Liebermann jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
    >>150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
    >>Santa Cruz CA 95060 AE6KS 831-336-2558
    >
    >
    >
  4. Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

    I have had very positive experience with Netgear hardware - specifically,
    the FVS318 and RT311. For their tech support, I cannot really comment. I
    have asked only asked them one question via e-mail and I got be a credible
    response. These routers have been easy to use, very reliable, and have
    worked better than people with Linksys routers for similar applications and
    environments. This is over the course of several years. I do believe at
    this point that I would not rule out buying a Linksys router. I am using
    two Linksys access points that I have been happy with (WAP54G), but one of
    those just did die a painful death. Hardware failure could happen with any
    component. The access points were easy to configured and work well in my
    WAP RADIUS environment.

    Jeff


    "Gary" <HiawathaGary@charter.net> wrote in message
    news:10km6av7povrj38@corp.supernews.com...
    >I have requested help a number of times through Netgear's email support
    >system. They refuse to answer. Also had a poor experience with their
    >phone support. Their support people are apparently in India and are hard
    >to understand.
    >
  5. Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

    Jeff Durham wrote:
    > I have had very positive experience with Netgear hardware - specifically,
    > the FVS318 and RT311. For their tech support, I cannot really comment. I
    > have asked only asked them one question via e-mail and I got be a credible
    > response. These routers have been easy to use, very reliable, and have
    > worked better than people with Linksys routers for similar applications and
    > environments. This is over the course of several years. I do believe at
    > this point that I would not rule out buying a Linksys router. I am using
    > two Linksys access points that I have been happy with (WAP54G), but one of
    > those just did die a painful death. Hardware failure could happen with any
    > component. The access points were easy to configured and work well in my
    > WAP RADIUS environment.
    >
    > Jeff
    >
    >
    > "Gary" <HiawathaGary@charter.net> wrote in message
    > news:10km6av7povrj38@corp.supernews.com...
    >
    >>I have requested help a number of times through Netgear's email support
    >>system. They refuse to answer. Also had a poor experience with their
    >>phone support. Their support people are apparently in India and are hard
    >>to understand.
    >>
    >
    >
    >
    I agree with both opinions. I'm a big fan of their hardware but I've
    encountered nothing that could reasonably be called support.

    Its unusual not to get an answer though. When I used to bother trying
    I'd get two, an automated faq followed by an answer that had nothing to
    do with my question.
  6. Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

    It's not just Netgear! An unbelievable number of IT related jobs have been
    outsourced to India, and other foreign countries. It's part of the New
    World Order.

    Bill Crocker


    "Gary" <HiawathaGary@charter.net> wrote in message
    news:10km6av7povrj38@corp.supernews.com...
    >I have requested help a number of times through Netgear's email support
    >system. They refuse to answer. Also had a poor experience with their
    >phone support. Their support people are apparently in India and are hard
    >to understand.
    >
  7. Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

    Unfortunately I have to seccond this negative experience.
    Netgear telephone support (German) and email support ist beyond
    accetable levels. A waste of time and effort.
  8. Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

    Gary <HiawathaGary@charter.net> wrote:
    > Thank you for responding. The problem is my Netgear WGR614 v4 wireless
    > router is blocking one or more websites. The site in question is
    > www.usps.com. I have plugged into the cable modem directly and have no

    That sounds like it might be one of the firewall options.

    On SMC, I turned off the "DoS" attack, as it gave lots of email about SMURF
    attacks. This is special because _any_ activity to or from an IP address
    ending in 255 is flagged as a SMURF, preventing access to some Yahoo
    Servers.

    Re: SMC Router Firewall Blocks Access to WAN Addresses 255, 0
    http://makeashorterlink.com/?Z506123C8

    ---
    Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8-122.5
  9. Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

    Ok, I don't know how to "drive" but they did good work walking me through
    the process and troubleshooting some problems. They spoke english fluently
    but the accent was at times problematic. They were patient and professional
    with me despite my rather confrontational tone. The driving analogy is
    clever but everyone who operates a home or small business network is not an
    IT pro.

    "Jeff Liebermann" <jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us> wrote in message
    news:kd8mk05kuvul5bakj8orqrs13ofc1pfktl@4ax.com...
    > On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:05:33 -0400, "Gary" <HiawathaGary@charter.net>
    > wrote:
    >
    >>I have requested help a number of times through Netgear's email support
    >>system. They refuse to answer. Also had a poor experience with their
    >>phone
    >>support. Their support people are apparently in India and are hard to
    >>understand.
    >
    > I bought a Dodge truck. I couldn't figure out how to make it go, so I
    > called the factory. They were not very helpful. I couldn't
    > understand why they insisted that I learn to drive before they would
    > tell my how to fix the engine. Their support was apparently in
    > Detroit, where they speak a very strange style of the kings English.
    > I don't like Dodge. Maybe if I bought a Ford or Chevy, the factory
    > would teach me to drive and fix my engine over the phone.
    >
    > So, now that you have registered your complaint against Netgear,
    > perhaps some clue as to what's not working, might be helpful? Also,
    > some clue as to what you have to work with (hardware list, operating
    > systems, versions).
    >
    >
    > --
    > Jeff Liebermann jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
    > 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
    > Santa Cruz CA 95060 AE6KS 831-336-2558
  10. Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

    Gary wrote:

    > I have requested help a number of times through Netgear's email support
    > system. They refuse to answer. Also had a poor experience with their phone
    > support. Their support people are apparently in India and are hard to
    > understand.
    >
    >
    I had trouble understanding the people in India even with experience
    with mid east types from my daughter's time at RPI and a trip to west
    Bengal.

    They even gave me the wrong RMA number, but somehow the USA types in
    Memphis figured it out.

    Now tonight both IE and Mozilla cannot get a decent inquiry form.

    Now for a real question re WTG634U.

    Radio on, the indicator flashes. The manual says data transmission.

    Radio off, the indicator is steady. The manual says dark.

    Firmware 1.4.0.6.

    What is correct?

    I still have problems with intermitant connectivity. from 20 ft away.
  11. Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

    On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:46:27 -0400, in alt.internet.wireless , "Gary"
    <HiawathaGary@charter.net> wrote:

    >Thank you for responding. The problem is my Netgear WGR614 v4 wireless
    >router is blocking one or more websites. The site in question is
    >www.usps.com.

    www.usps.com is no longer in my ISP's DNS. Perhaps thats why you have
    problems ?

    --
    Mark McIntyre
    CLC FAQ <http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html>
    CLC readme: <http://www.ungerhu.com/jxh/clc.welcome.txt>


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  12. Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

    Mark McIntyre <markmcintyre@spamcop.net> wrote:
    > www.usps.com is no longer in my ISP's DNS. Perhaps thats why you have
    > problems ?

    That would be kind of rude. Do you think they went out of business?
    I get a DNS response
    host www.usps.com
    usps.com has address 56.0.134.24
    and the web page opens just fine.

    --
    ---
    Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8-122.5
  13. Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

    On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:46:27 -0400, "Gary" <HiawathaGary@charter.net>
    wrote:

    >Thank you for responding. The problem is my Netgear WGR614 v4 wireless
    >router is blocking one or more websites. The site in question is
    >www.usps.com. I have plugged into the cable modem directly and have no
    >problem. Telephone support had me try different mtu's to no avail. Finally
    >they just gave up and said to call premium support which charges a lot. The
    >usps site is the only one I know of being blocked, but how many other less
    >frequented sites is it blocking?

    Authoritative lookups of usps.com from the various USPS nameservers is
    returning errors and failures. Actually, none of the USPS.com
    nameservers listed is reachable from here:
    usps.com NS (Nameserver) dns141.usps.com
    usps.com NS (Nameserver) dns082.usps.com
    usps.com NS (Nameserver) dns100.usps.com
    usps.com NS (Nameserver) dns082.usps.com
    usps.com NS (Nameserver) dns100.usps.com
    usps.com NS (Nameserver) dns141.usps.com

    However, methinks you'll find what you want at http://www.usps.gov
    Oops, that doesn't resolve either because it points to the same
    colleciton of nameservers.
    usps.gov NS (Nameserver) dns100.usps.com
    usps.gov NS (Nameserver) dns141.usps.com
    usps.gov NS (Nameserver) dns082.usps.com
    usps.gov NS (Nameserver) dns082.usps.com
    usps.gov NS (Nameserver) dns100.usps.com
    usps.gov NS (Nameserver) dns141.usps.com

    Methinks the post office is having DNS problems. It's rather odd that
    ALL their servers refuse to resolve usps.com and usps.gov. That leads
    me to suspect (i.e. guess) that someone screwed up their DNS record,
    and updated all their DNS servers with the same mistake. (Been there
    and done it to myself a few times).

    If all else fails, try:
    http://56.0.134.24
    (fished out of an obscure ISP's DNS cache with a rediculously long
    delay between updates and flushes).

    If you ever have such problems, check with an online DNS lookup tool
    such as:
    http://www.dnsstuff.com
    and see if anything weird appears.


    --
    # Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
    # 831.336.2558 voice http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
    # jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
    # 831.421.6491 digital_pager jeffl@cruzio.com AE6KS
  14. Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

    On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 22:32:50 -0400, "danilettt" <dltab@juno.com>
    wrote:

    >Ok, I don't know how to "drive" but they did good work walking me through
    >the process and troubleshooting some problems. They spoke english fluently
    >but the accent was at times problematic. They were patient and professional
    >with me despite my rather confrontational tone.

    Actually, I get better service from outsourced tech support
    disorganizations than from the domestic variety. Notice that I said
    service, not technical expertise or troubleshooting success. I stil
    remember the bad old days, when all support was domestic, and the
    level of expertise was even lower. Support was treated as an entry
    level position, where the customer would train the support people.

    In the distant past, I sat in on the monitoring position for various
    domestic tech support organizations. It was all I could do to not
    reach over the partition, rip the headset off the support personality,
    and give the customer a massive overdose of technobabble and
    expertise. I had to literally sit on my hands. Outsourced support
    may be bad, but the domestic variety it replaced was even worse.

    Typical horror story. I call NEC for support on one of their Windoze
    PC's (forgot exact model). There was a bios incompatibility with
    booting a large drive and I needed to beg the support person for the
    secret incantation necessary to download the bios update. Instead,
    the support person says that there's a simple proceedure using debug
    to solve the problem. If I had followed his advice, I would have done
    a primary format on the hard disk. When I suggested that this was not
    such a great idea, the support person insisted that this is what his
    troubleshooting proceedure required. I wonder how many drives he
    vaporized.

    Anyway, there is a difference between domestic and foreign support.
    Domestic support is generally clueless, but will bend over backwards
    to solve a problem. However, they will only spend perhaps 10 minutes
    on a problem before giving up.

    Depending upon the organization, most domestic outsourced tech support
    organizations will spend as much time as necessary to solve the
    problem. Their patience and tolerance is amazing and could never be
    duplicated with the domestic flavour. Recent calls to HP support by
    one of my customers resulted in a 90 minute support ordeal to recover
    from a botched multi-malfunction printer/scanner/fax thing. The next
    call was 30 minutes to troubleshoot a flakey wireless mouse. I wasn't
    impressed by their expertise, but they certainly were thorough.
    However, such scripted recovery ordeals were not my idea of
    efficiency. For example, during the printer/scanner/fax reinstall,
    the support person insisted that he reinstall MS Java (the obsolete
    version unsupported version) and Windoze Scripting Host (the giant
    security hole) in order to be sure that the HP printer install
    succeeds. There was no evidence that either of these were broken or
    required a reinstall, but to be thorough, he insisted that they first
    be installed.

    >The driving analogy is
    >clever but everyone who operates a home or small business network is not an
    >IT pro.

    True. Neither is everyone on the highway a professional driver with a
    class A or B commerical drivers license. The auto industry is
    sufficiently mature to require specialization. You don't get your
    driving lessons from the manufacturer. You don't buy your parts from
    your mechanic. Your driving instructor does not sell parts and
    accessories. Drivers generally expect to pay for tech support on
    their vehicles.


    --
    # Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
    # 831.336.2558 voice http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
    # jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
    # 831.421.6491 digital_pager jeffl@cruzio.com AE6KS
  15. Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

    On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 23:57:31 +0000 (UTC), in alt.internet.wireless ,
    dold@XReXXBewar.usenet.us.com wrote:

    >Mark McIntyre <markmcintyre@spamcop.net> wrote:
    >> www.usps.com is no longer in my ISP's DNS. Perhaps thats why you have
    >> problems ?
    >
    >That would be kind of rude. Do you think they went out of business?

    :-)


    My point was that it was nowt to do with Netgear. The only thing Netgear
    support should have told the OP to do was tracert to the server. If you
    can tracert past your own modem then its not your hardware, its a fault in
    the 'net.

    --
    Mark McIntyre
    CLC FAQ <http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html>
    CLC readme: <http://www.ungerhu.com/jxh/clc.welcome.txt>


    ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
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  16. Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

    Ah well, that level of support is pretty standard from mostVendors
    unless....you're having problems with an expensive demo product which they
    are hoping you will buy. Then somehow they dont seem to mind the driving
    lessons. When I was having a problem with my ATI video card a few years
    ago, after getting no response at all from tech support, I went to their
    website and fired an anguished epistle of to every email address on their
    website....and got a reply from ..guess who..the sales department who were
    able to get the problem resolved for me. I guess companies got tired of
    people like me trying this kind of trick because, it's very hard to even
    find contact info now for IT products. I have had problems with DLink not
    answering emails as well, and as well I concur with others in this group
    about their experiences with Indian tech support. The best support by far
    comes from these forums or for those relating to volunteer projects (Linux
    type stuff comes to mind...)

    I had an amazing experience with the Avast AntiVirus forum, with answers to
    my queries literally within minutes.

    Since my dad doesn't know now to drive, and driving schools as so expensive
    if they exist at all, and since there are so many kinds cars out there, it's
    good that there is such a spirit of cooperation in these user groups who can
    tell me that in this particular brand of car there are 7 gears and you need
    to turn the selector switch on the transmission to the "C" position before
    you attempt to drive. And by the way, the doors use the new infrared locks,
    not the old mechanical keyed locks which can be opened by any body who owns
    a slim jim.

    "Gary" <HiawathaGary@charter.net> wrote in message
    news:10km6av7povrj38@corp.supernews.com...
    >I have requested help a number of times through Netgear's email support
    >system. They refuse to answer. Also had a poor experience with their
    >phone support. Their support people are apparently in India and are hard
    >to understand.
    >
  17. Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

    "Gary" <HiawathaGary@charter.net> wrote in
    news:10km6av7povrj38@corp.supernews.com:

    > I have requested help a number of times through Netgear's email
    > support system. They refuse to answer. Also had a poor experience
    > with their phone support. Their support people are apparently in
    > India and are hard to understand.

    I never had problems getting a response.

    --
    Lucas Tam (REMOVEnntp@rogers.com)
    Please delete "REMOVE" from the e-mail address when replying.
    http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/coolspot18/
  18. Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

    On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 22:32:50 -0400, "danilettt" <dltab@juno.com>
    wrote:

    >Ok, I don't know how to "drive" but they did good work walking me through
    >the process and troubleshooting some problems. They spoke english fluently
    >but the accent was at times problematic. They were patient and professional
    >with me despite my rather confrontational tone.

    As with any call centre some staff will be better than others. As a
    former support team supervisor I'll testify that there is not just a
    large range of experience (there will always be people who are new)
    and a large variation in attitude (there will always be some who care
    about what they're doing and others who do the least they can to pay
    their bills).

    Perhaps you got lucky with the member of staff you spoke to? My
    experience of Netgear support is dire. The first time I called,
    before I bought my router, was to confirm a couple of technical
    aspects. Although the guy had a strong accent he understood what I
    wanted and gave me a good answer. The second time was to report a
    fault with my wireless PCI card which was continually scanning for
    networks and never finding anything above ch3, which was hardly
    surprising since the GUI showed to be scanning only those three
    channels and then stopping.

    After 10 minutes of being assured that upgrading the firmware on the
    router would solve the problem (she was quite assertive) by a girl who
    I could hardly understand and who clearly had no comprehension of the
    problem I started to get a bit shirty. Even when she put me through
    to second level support she told them I had a faulty router. If she
    could not even grasp which piece of hardware I was complaining about
    there was little hope that she could ever come up with a fix -
    especially as I had categorically stated that the router was NOT
    causing problems, other client machines could connect without incident
    and that all clients AND the router ALREADY had the latest firmware.

    Verdict - not impressed by first level support but second level was a
    whole different animal.
  19. Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

    In message <kd8mk05kuvul5bakj8orqrs13ofc1pfktl@4ax.com>, Jeff Liebermann
    <jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us> writes
    >I bought a Dodge truck. I couldn't figure out how to make it go, so I
    >called the factory. They were not very helpful. I couldn't
    >understand why they insisted that I learn to drive before they would
    >tell my how to fix the engine. Their support was apparently in
    >Detroit, where they speak a very strange style of the kings English.
    >I don't like Dodge. Maybe if I bought a Ford or Chevy, the factory
    >would teach me to drive and fix my engine over the phone.

    I don't think that is a very good analogy. I know how to drive my
    Netgear router, but for the first few months after purchase it crashed
    for reasons totally beyond my control. If you had a car or truck which
    did that, wouldn't you expect the manufacturer to respond, and maybe
    even pay you compensation?

    I *know* that it was Netgear's fault, because they subsequently produced
    revised firmware which works fine. But they responded to my emailed
    query only to say that they didn't provide support by email. The
    alternative was to call their phone line, which (in the UK) is more
    expensive than normal calls, and which, from various reports I've seen,
    takes a huge amount of your time.

    I think that the Netgear product that I bought is now ok, but having
    some experience of their software support policy, I would not recommend
    them to others, and will seek alternative brands when I next need
    networking hardware. Is that so unreasonable?

    Their poor support has lost them a customer. Only monopolies can afford
    to do that on any significant scale.


    --
    Clive Page
  20. Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

    On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 19:29:12 +0100, Clive Page <junk@page.demon.co.uk>
    wrote:

    >In message <kd8mk05kuvul5bakj8orqrs13ofc1pfktl@4ax.com>, Jeff Liebermann
    ><jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us> writes
    >>I bought a Dodge truck. I couldn't figure out how to make it go, so I
    >>called the factory. They were not very helpful. I couldn't
    >>understand why they insisted that I learn to drive before they would
    >>tell my how to fix the engine. Their support was apparently in
    >>Detroit, where they speak a very strange style of the kings English.
    >>I don't like Dodge. Maybe if I bought a Ford or Chevy, the factory
    >>would teach me to drive and fix my engine over the phone.

    >I don't think that is a very good analogy.

    I guess I have time for another rant...

    The analogy has its weak spots. For example, the automobile
    manufacturers have a large and fairly competent dealer networks
    designed to provide service. The wireless router manufacturers do
    not. With a vehicle, you can deal with the dealer or independent
    service network. With wireless routers, you're stuck with dealing
    with Netgear.

    Yet, Netgear isn't really the manufacturer. Netgear buys their
    products from Bromax, Eumitcom, Cameo Comm, Delta, and other overseas
    manufacturers. Netgear is somewhat like the automotive dealer
    network. They can provide some level of service, but cannot fix
    fundamental defects. If Netgear gets handed some buggy firmware by
    their supplier, there's little they can do until the next inevitable
    release. Why didn't you call Taiwan and ask for support?

    >I know how to drive my
    >Netgear router, but for the first few months after purchase it crashed
    >for reasons totally beyond my control.

    I guess you didn't read the 2nd paragraph of my posting. Feel free to
    trash Netgears reputation and support. However, without specific
    models, versions, releases, and firmware numbers, your complaints have
    little weight. Every manufacturer of anything (including some stuff I
    designed) has their problems, their loss leaders, their losers, and
    their bugs. Even versions of the same product differ in quality. If
    you judge the quality of a product or vendor by a single product or
    single incident, you will rapidly run out of vendors to select from.
    Supply some details or don't bother complaining.

    >If you had a car or truck which
    >did that, wouldn't you expect the manufacturer to respond, and maybe
    >even pay you compensation?

    Sure. The courts are full of product liability cases, where the
    victim has to sue the manufactory in order to get their attention.
    I've also watched companies go out of business dealing with
    multimega-dollar claims. See:
    http://www.bigclassaction.com
    for a wide selection of cases. No match for Netgear. Sorry.
    Corporations are evil and should be made to pay for their mistakes.
    Also, being a victim is quite popular these days.

    >I *know* that it was Netgear's fault, because they subsequently produced
    >revised firmware which works fine.

    That's fortunate because in the past, Netgear has simply abandoned the
    product and the customers. I had about 5 of the original Netgear
    WAP11 access points (with the Atmel chipset) that never did work
    right. Four firmware updates never did fix the hangs and lockups.
    Eventually, Netgear came up with the version 2 incantation of the
    WAP11 with totally different hardware and firmware. It was better but
    had some other problem. I think the 4th mutation finally worked
    right. There was no trade up or warranty available for victims of the
    original WAP11 radios. I still buy Netgear products, but not if
    there's another alternative.

    >But they responded to my emailed
    >query only to say that they didn't provide support by email. The
    >alternative was to call their phone line, which (in the UK) is more
    >expensive than normal calls, and which, from various reports I've seen,
    >takes a huge amount of your time.

    Most support organizations look at it differently. They try to be
    thorough. If it takes all day, that's just fine with them. It's much
    better than the bad old days where if they couldn't fix your problem
    in 5 minutes on the phone, you were effectively disconnected or put on
    permanent hold until a "level 2 tech" or some such non existant expert
    could be found.

    As for charging for support calls, I find it rather rare that I have
    to call support for any product. Therefore, I find it difficult to
    justify subsidizing YOUR support calls. There's no such thing as
    "free" support as the cost is plowed into the product cost. If you
    want phone support, you can pay for it, not me.

    >I think that the Netgear product that I bought is now ok, but having
    >some experience of their software support policy, I would not recommend
    >them to others, and will seek alternative brands when I next need
    >networking hardware. Is that so unreasonable?

    Nope. That's fine. Would you like to see my black list of companies
    which I can do without? Just one problem. Like you, I won't bother
    to supply details on my grievances with these companies. How
    reasonable is that?

    >Their poor support has lost them a customer. Only monopolies can afford
    >to do that on any significant scale.

    Netgear (Cisco) is far from a monopoly. Let me put is more bluntly in
    rhetorical question format. How much would you pay for good support?
    Do you want to pay for someone else's support calls? Perhaps the
    money spent on support would be better invested in testing and
    programming? If you want quality, wouldn't it be better if you bought
    a higher priced product supported by an experienced dealer network
    (Cisco 1200, Sonicwall, Proxim)?

    Quality, support, cheap.... pick two.

    --
    Jeff Liebermann jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
    150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
    Santa Cruz CA 95060 AE6KS 831-336-2558
  21. Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

    In message <lcr8l0tnut6o4op44pevofndro6f72efg6@4ax.com>, Jeff Liebermann
    <jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us> writes
    >Yet, Netgear isn't really the manufacturer. Netgear buys their
    >products from Bromax, Eumitcom, Cameo Comm, Delta, and other overseas
    >manufacturers. Netgear is somewhat like the automotive dealer
    >network. They can provide some level of service, but cannot fix
    >fundamental defects. If Netgear gets handed some buggy firmware by
    >their supplier, there's little they can do until the next inevitable
    >release. Why didn't you call Taiwan and ask for support?

    I didn't know that - there's nothing on the box or in the documentation
    available to me to say who actually made it. Netgear is the name on the
    box, and they are the ones claiming to provide support, not some company
    that I've never heard of in Taiwan.

    >I guess you didn't read the 2nd paragraph of my posting. Feel free to
    >trash Netgears reputation and support. However, without specific
    >models, versions, releases, and firmware numbers, your complaints have
    >little weight.

    I'm not sure this is the place, but if you insist: I got a Netgear
    DG834G Wireless ADSL Firewall Router in January 2004, which came with
    firmware version 1.03.00. Several later firmware releases were also
    unsatisfactory, with 1.05.00 the first which did not crash rather
    frequently.

    > Every manufacturer of anything (including some stuff I
    >designed) has their problems,

    Agreed. What differs most strongly between good and bad manufacturers
    is what they agree to do when they get something wrong. A good
    manufacturer (or good vendor) will try hard to put things right, and
    compensate you for the inconvenience. By that measure, Netgear isn't
    all that good.

    >>I *know* that it was Netgear's fault, because they subsequently produced
    >>revised firmware which works fine.
    >
    >That's fortunate because in the past, Netgear has simply abandoned the
    >product and the customers.

    I didn't know it was as bad as that. Maybe you don't have laws on
    "fitness for purpose" in the US?

    >original WAP11 radios. I still buy Netgear products, but not if
    >there's another alternative.

    Interesting that we both feel the same way.

    >As for charging for support calls, I find it rather rare that I have
    >to call support for any product. Therefore, I find it difficult to
    >justify subsidizing YOUR support calls. There's no such thing as
    >"free" support as the cost is plowed into the product cost. If you
    >want phone support, you can pay for it, not me.

    I rarely have to call support either, and of course the price of "free"
    support has to be built in to the price of the product. I think that's
    a good thing, because the manufacturer then has an incentive to make a
    product that is reliable and easy to use, so they generate few support
    calls, so reducing their costs, which either makes the products cheaper
    or their profits higher.

    My main point is that if a support call is necessary because of *their*
    failing, then I strongly resent having to pay for it.

    >
    >>I think that the Netgear product that I bought is now ok, but having
    >>some experience of their software support policy, I would not recommend
    >>them to others, and will seek alternative brands when I next need
    >>networking hardware. Is that so unreasonable?

    >Nope. That's fine. Would you like to see my black list of companies
    >which I can do without? Just one problem. Like you, I won't bother
    >to supply details on my grievances with these companies. How
    >reasonable is that?

    I think that's quite reasonable - and suspect that I'm not the only one
    who'd like to see your list.


    >
    >>Their poor support has lost them a customer. Only monopolies can afford
    >>to do that on any significant scale.

    >Netgear (Cisco) is far from a monopoly.

    Indeed, it was companies like Microsoft that I was getting at.

    > Let me put is more bluntly in
    >rhetorical question format. How much would you pay for good support?

    With the benefit of experience, or at least hindsight, the next time I
    buy something like this one of the factors in my decision will be the
    quality and ease of access of support. If they make support calls free,
    that means they don't expect to have to provide a lot of it, which
    probably means that the product is reasonably well debugged before being
    put on the market.

    >Do you want to pay for someone else's support calls?

    I'm happy to do that, if it means I can buy a product which doesn't
    generate many of them.

    >Quality, support, cheap.... pick two.

    The Netgear product that I bought was by no means the cheapest on the
    market, indeed alternatives were not much more than half the price; I
    naively thought that might have bought me more quality. I'm wiser now,
    though only slightly.


    --
    Clive Page
  22. Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

    On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 18:35:02 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
    <jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us> wrote:

    >Here's the DG834Gv2 from the FCC web pile:
    >https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/cf/eas/reports/ViewExhibitReport.cfm?mode=Exhibits&RequestTimeout=500&calledFromFrame=N&application_id=912654&fcc_id='PY3DG834GV2'
    >Type accepted in Germany? Makes sense as it was released in EU before
    >the US. The test report shows the manufactory to be:
    > Name : SerComm Corporation
    > Street : 8F, No.3-1, YuanQu St.
    > Town : NanKang, Taipei 115
    > Country : Taiwan, R.O.C.

    Does this ADSL/router/wireless box look familiar?
    http://www.sercomm.com/IP806GAGB.htm
    The plastic case is different, but everything else is the same.

    --
    Jeff Liebermann jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
    150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
    Santa Cruz CA 95060 AE6KS 831-336-2558
  23. Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

    Clive Page <junk@page.demon.co.uk> wrote:
    > I didn't know that - there's nothing on the box or in the documentation
    > available to me to say who actually made it. Netgear is the name on the
    > box, and they are the ones claiming to provide support, not some company
    > that I've never heard of in Taiwan.

    The FCC ID will sometimes reveal the source. For several devices that I've
    looked up, the name is Accton in Taiwan.
    The WGR614 seems to be NetGear (FCC Grantee PY3).
    https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/cf/eas/reports/GenericSearch.cfm
    FCC ID PY3WGR614v3
    Perusing the indivual documents might reveal another designer.

    ---
    Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8-122.5
  24. Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

    On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 22:18:07 +0100, Clive Page <junk@page.demon.co.uk>
    wrote:

    >I'm not sure this is the place, but if you insist: I got a Netgear
    >DG834G Wireless ADSL Firewall Router in January 2004, which came with
    >firmware version 1.03.00. Several later firmware releases were also
    >unsatisfactory, with 1.05.00 the first which did not crash rather
    >frequently.

    It seems a little harsh that you are judging the whole of Netgear and
    all of their products based on one dodgy box.

    I also have a DG834G. It also came with v1.03 and worked fine. I
    upgraded to v1.04 and that worked fine even though it was quickly
    replaced with v1.04.01 - which I did not bother with since mine worked
    fine anyway. More recently I upgraded to v1.05 and that is the best
    of the lot.

    I am very happy with this box and would recommend it to anyone - which
    kind of suggests that not all boxes were a problem.
  25. Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

    In message <rdqfl0t4n48o8gtp3agfnaqa6couvokvi0@4ax.com>, Simon Pleasants
    <plesbit@hotmail.com> writes
    >It seems a little harsh that you are judging the whole of Netgear and
    >all of their products based on one dodgy box.

    I think you may have missed the earlier bits of this thread. Obviously
    you can't base much on the existence of one dodgy box, but from various
    postings on this and other newsgroups, it's clear that mine wasn't the
    only one. The fact that Netgear keep on producing new firmware must
    suggest something: it could be that they are perfectionists or it could
    be that the were serious problems with the earlier releases.

    I also agree that all manufacturers sometimes produce dodgy products,
    which is why Netgear only went down in my estimation when I discovered
    their reluctance to give s/w support (have a look at the subject line
    above, and you'll see that's what we started off discussing, way back).

    >I also have a DG834G. It also came with v1.03 and worked fine. I
    >upgraded to v1.04 and that worked fine even though it was quickly
    >replaced with v1.04.01 - which I did not bother with since mine worked
    >fine anyway. More recently I upgraded to v1.05 and that is the best
    >of the lot.
    >
    >I am very happy with this box and would recommend it to anyone - which
    >kind of suggests that not all boxes were a problem.

    I'm not surprised, I didn't expect that everyone would have had the same
    problems. But back to the main issue: I just hope that you don't need
    to get software support from them at some future date, or your opinions
    may change slightly.

    --
    Clive Page
  26. Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

    On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 20:43:24 +0100, Clive Page <junk@page.demon.co.uk>
    wrote:

    >In message <rdqfl0t4n48o8gtp3agfnaqa6couvokvi0@4ax.com>, Simon Pleasants
    ><plesbit@hotmail.com> writes
    >
    >I think you may have missed the earlier bits of this thread. Obviously
    >you can't base much on the existence of one dodgy box, but from various
    >postings on this and other newsgroups, it's clear that mine wasn't the
    >only one.

    No, there do seem to be other complaints about this box and have been
    ever since I first started reading the group about a year ago.
    However I have put the number of queries / errors down to the
    extremely large turnover the unit as well. Someone not so long ago
    posted some figures to this, or one of the other groups on the
    subjectm which suggested a considerable amount more of them were in
    operation than other similar bits of kit. By definition 1% of lots is
    going to be more than 1% of not a lot.

    Unfortunately it seems you are one of the unlucky ones.

    >The fact that Netgear keep on producing new firmware must
    >suggest something: it could be that they are perfectionists or it could
    >be that the were serious problems with the earlier releases.

    I think they have had good reasons for this. Each release has added
    something useful and they've taken the opportunity to tinker with
    other things. v1.03 added WPA-PSK. v1.04.01 added WPA-802.1x. I
    think they also tinked with the ADSL microcode, which would appear to
    have caused problems. v1.05 rolled back the ADSL microcode and added
    statistics.

    All in all, the various firmwares each had a very good reason to exist
    except v1.05 which undoubtedly was created to fix a problem caused by
    tinkering. However I have found the statistics to be very useful and
    I am pleased I upgraded - even though I actually experienced no issues
    with v1.04.01.

    >>I am very happy with this box and would recommend it to anyone - which
    >>kind of suggests that not all boxes were a problem.
    >
    >I'm not surprised, I didn't expect that everyone would have had the same
    >problems. But back to the main issue: I just hope that you don't need
    >to get software support from them at some future date, or your opinions
    >may change slightly.

    Oh I already have and my opinions are well documented. 2nd level
    support are quite good, just make sufficient nuisance of yourself to
    1st level that they pass you on, because no matter how long you talk
    to first level they'll never come up with a fix for anything are
    perfectly capable of making the most mild mannered home user into
    something you'd not want to meet down a dark alley :-)
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