Crashman

Polypheme
Former Staff
I was wondering about this voltage droop issue that's all over the web on the Asus P4C800-E. Of course that's their top board model, so you expect it to be good. Curious that a board that did so well in reviews would have such quality issues.

Then I noticed <A HREF="http://www20.tomshardware.com/cpu/20031230/5ghz-08.html" target="_new">This Page</A> and wondered why all the capacitors were upgraded. So I looked at my board, and..WTF is KZE? Not a capacitor company I've heard of, that's for sure! Notice the "tweaked" board's capacitors have the "K" stamped on the top, could those be top quality Sanyo parts on the specially prepared board? Could Asus be using generic parts on the boards they actually sell? Is it possible? Makes you wonder what parts were on those boards they sent the review site, no?

You'll notice a lot of parts are missing on this board. Another look at <A HREF="http://www20.tomshardware.com/cpu/20031230/5ghz-08.html" target="_new">the bottom of that page</A> and you'll notice they've been installed on the "tweaked" board. Hmmm.

Let's see, I bought the CUSL2 on Tom's recommendation, and the P4C800-E on Anandtech's. Meanwhile everyone I've recommended the Abit IS7 to is happy. I think I'll start listening to myself instead of these guys, too much hokey pokey going on with the review samples methinks.

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Crashman

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Former Staff
Hey! WTF! Take another look at <A HREF="http://www20.tomshardware.com/cpu/20031230/5ghz-08.html" target="_new">That Page</A>! Is that a MOSFET missing from the production board and present on the modified board?

WTF! With that part missing wouldn't it make the board 2 phase instead of 3? 2 PHASE POWER ON A "TOP END" BOARD???

I've warned you, I own the board, the vCore is all over the place, look around the net, just type "P4C800" and "droop" into a search engine. Use other search strings, I did, I've found pleanty of information about this being a common problem to these boards. Asus is starting to resemble ECS, if you buy from them knowing what I've said you deserve your hardship.

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Ed_Phoon

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I said it, that's why I keeep looking for 4 phase board.
And you said it, Abit IC7 and IS7(and AI7), these are 4 phase boards, you make people happy but keep youself frustrated, oh my.....
 

pat

Expert
I've bought my Soltek nforce2 board instead of the asus one because I was reading too much about Asus board (either for AMD or Intel) problems. The Soltek was much cheaper than the asus, so I had less to lose. So far, my Soltek is the best board I've owned...and I dont think I need Asus anymore

-Always put the blame on you first, then on the hardware !!!
 

Crashman

Polypheme
Former Staff
I bought this for a review because I was having problems getting this free Corsair XMS4000-Pro to operate at full speed for a review and this is the board they use to validate it.

I keep people happy recommending those Fortron Source power supplies too, but I'm still using my home made unit (every FSP unit I've had has gone into customers computers).

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endyen

Splendid
Here's my 2 cents worth. The missing part is a v reg. This is not a problem as the other two are set in open delta. The potential output would only be 57%, but that should be more than adaquate. The pi filter caps look fine, though a silver coating looks good. The heat sink on the regulators is a waste of material, as it sits on the face rather than on the backplate. The problem I see is the number of turns on the choke coil. While this would only affect the lagging edge of the frequency ripple ( so not too much impact on signal strength ) it makes it almost impossible to accurately measure the voltage.
 

Crashman

Polypheme
Former Staff
Using the 1.70v setting, my voltage dips to 1.63v under load and spikes to 1.76v when the process stops.

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SoDNighthawk

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They had the right idea putting a heatsink onto the 2 SMT voltage chips but they bridged both of them with the same heatsink, even if they used the proper thermal compounds they will now get line noise in the Voltage output that you could only see with a scope but it is still there.

They did an even nastier job on the smt 603 tantilum caps they are all crooked and the solder joints look poor, they have bad filleting. Smt solder should look like shiny silver when the reflow process is done correctly. Depending on what wired solder they used NO FLUX or water based it should have been cleaned to remove the Rosin solder found in most spooled retail solder.

The smt 1206 Diodes they installed have metal conductors that wrap tightly underneath each component end so the are recessed or hidden below the Diodes, hard to reach on a bare board with a soldering Iron/ need two 1 at each end to melt the solder paste.
They also used to much heat with the soldering iron and partly cooked the CPU socket on the inside edges.

They would have been better off to use a Hot-Air Pencil that forces super heated air up to 800 F through a small Via in the end of hand held stylus. That tool allows you to heat each component evenly and melt the solder paste at each end of small components at the same time allowing with tweezers to align components correctly.

The heatsink should have been in two parts but buffered by capton tape or a type J or type K thermal couple to prevent line noise in the circuit.

Performance wise it most likely works but from a hands on modification it looks very much like a hack job.

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SoDNighthawk

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Endyen you are right about the Voltage regulators having the dissipative sides on the back and they are soldered to the SMT foot prints on the board layout but the Dissipative properties of the motherboard are always heat dammed when installed into a case. The heat sink is really a waste of time but if we used a thermal couple meter in J format I bet we would see heat dissipation is greater then without the heat sink. J reads faster then K and we would see spiking faster. I still don't like the bridging effect the heat sink does to the regulators it will cause some minor line noise.

The choke coil (Torroid) is wrapped correctly for load when you count the wraps on the torroid you bench test to make sure it is handling the signal strengths. Besides ASUS does not make the components they are all made around the world by independent companies in different countries and those specs are the ones the designers purchase. The whole unit was proto-boarded by the test engineers before release to market anyways. The missing components on many circuit boards are leftovers from the board design stage anyways. They seldom return a board to the design stage if they find it working to spec the extra open pads are simply left open.

Cost effective, it does not mean they left components out of the function of the product.

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Crashman

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Former Staff
I've done worse, never use flux, and my projects work fine :smile:

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ironmike

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Crashman , the new AI7 is it better then the IS7. I havent heard a lot about it yet . Was thinking about getting one ( goes up to 3.2 V Dimm i think ).

The man of steel said that
 

SoDNighthawk

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Reply to Alouf

I have been thinking about that mod that I replied to and I was going to go back to it and add another note*

The thing is I have worked in SMT development for 20 years and I understand how the design stages work.

What those guys have done is put that board into a test loop. Most circuit boards have TEST POINTS located all over the board that are left out of the final design but some times the pads on the board are left open and later used as test points when the board is tested.

If I was to hedge a bet on that modification I would say all the guys have succeeded in doing is putting the motherboard into an Engineering test loop proly causing the board to run terribly because it is (a)Trying to both run the computer operations as it should and (b) because it is constantly running a self diagnostic.

Cant be good in at all.

As far as the tools needed for SMT component work even at home a few items are necessary.

2 Soldering Irons because every part has at least 2 conductive ends that need solder so you need to work at both ends at the same time.

A hot air pencil is excellent for almost all SMT components I am not sure how much you could get one for you are talking a grand I am sure.

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SoDNighthawk

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From Alouf
Tell me what you think :)

http://www.web-tronics.com/esdsacpucore.html

Reply to
Alouf


Perfect unit, it has tips for removing larger QFP's or (quad flat packs) the one I used to use was smaller had only one tip but ran the same temperatures.

We used a machine called the SNIPER for doing J-hook (lead) or QFP's the long thin .25 pitch components.

I never imagined you were advanced enough to know or use Board Epoxy to place your SMT components.

In a manufacturing environment where they have a double sided circuit boards they use a robot to place all epoxy between the component pads then the next Bot in line puts the parts onto the board.

If you have this epoxy in a tube go for it. Obviously that is why I called the other post a HACK Job.

I started out in SMT so long ago I keep forgetting that it is old news now and many tech people or home techs understand it.

When I started doing this kind of work Panasonic had placement robotics that were already 15 years old and that was 20 years ago.

The first SMT was used in mass production for building T.V's as you could well imagine.

That unit you posted is a good one but I worked in military type projects as well and we would call that in the industry an Elephant in otherowrds its like an Elephant walking on ants.

It's tips are large and bulky but will do exactly what you need it to if you have the hands of a surgeon and the mind to watch the heat levels.

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Crashman

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Former Staff
I haven't gotten enough information on the AI7 to make any kind of preliminary judgement.

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SoDNighthawk

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Yes that is very similar to the one I used so many years ago. I see Weller has decided to get smaller they used to have large SMT heat pencils.

I do not work so much in the manufacturing area's any more, I am in to Quality Engineering control now.

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Crashman

Polypheme
Former Staff
A <A HREF="http://www.abit-usa.com/products/mb/large.php?model=147" target="_new">Closer Look</A> at the AI7 shows that it has a turned socket for shorter traces than the IS7. That could help add stability when overclocked or using lower latency settings. Look how straight the traces are!

However I still prefer the <A HREF="http://www.abit-usa.com/images/products/IS7_lg.jpg" target="_new">IS7 Layout</A> with the AGP slot in the top position and the 5 PCI slots in the lower positions, providing an empty slot for card cooling. If you had to use 5 PCI cards, AGP would be far more likely to overheat on the AI7 design (which is similar to most other boards). And the used of a double wide AGP card would block a slot entirely on the AI7 while not having that effect on the IS7.

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SoDNighthawk

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Only got to look at each pic for a few seconds before my fire walls got pissed and blocked them.

I never disable the Wall now even if I really want to check a site out.

Anyhow if they get the components stuffed in any closer they are going to make Copper Frisbee's.

I think it is time for the design teams to start using a new type of board layout.

Next generation boards I am talking stuff you have not seen yet but I have, use military grade copper in them and some components such as resistors and caps are incorporated into the board layers.

If you do it correctly you can create resistance simply by manipulating ground planes.

The motherboard cards would only need to be large enough to slot a AGP card.

But the circuit boards could have as many as 25 to 30 layers. almost an inch thick. but only 6x6 inches.

Place a half pound heat sink under all that and it would take a blow torch to overheat it. Simply not enough electric activity going on to cause dissipation levels at over temp.

Imagine a computer with onboard everything at around 8x8 inches. The cables to hook it up would look nasty so it would have wireless navigation.

A computer 8 inches across with no fans no power supply space needed. Hold it in your hand. mini CD's and 200Gig protected memory storage. no moving parts!!

Ya I will get on that tomorrow ;)

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SoDNighthawk

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No not a game cube LOL......A real honest to goodness super type computer.

Imagine stringing 10 or 12 of those together on your book shelf like SCSI drives.

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ironmike

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Thanks Crashman , i see what you mean . The AI7 goes up to 3.2 V Dimm which was interesting . I got a P4P 800 Dlx. board thats been problematic ( i to am wondering about Asus ) and thinking of replaceing it . Think i will go with the IS7 . The 3.2 V Dimm was interesting because all the major 4000 memory are uping there warranty voltages . Thanks for the reply it was a lot of help.

The man of steel said that
 

Crashman

Polypheme
Former Staff
Well, I don't know what features are more important to you and have no data on the AI7, but it does have shorter traces to the CPU, and the increased vDIMM might come in handy.

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Johanthegnarler

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What do you think of shuttle boards? Back in the day weren't they the board to use for the AMD fans?


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