939 mobo fsb

[64bit_Tounament]

Hi, am planning new hi end gaming system around A64 3500+ or 3800+, and an x800 or 6800 series graphics card, and the 939 socket is a no-brainer.
The nForce3 250 chipset seems to be the go, and what I want to know.... is 400mhz the highest memory speed I will get without overclocking?
I want to aim for a system running synchronous at 433 or 466 Mhz... what will this cpu's 1000 Mhz hypertransport bus thingy support?
Am I right to aim for higher fsb, by mild(ish) overclocking if necessary to acheive top end fps gaming... or would hot stuff dual channel low latency PC3200 on a 400 Mhz fsb be a better option?
What should I do to get the best from the 939 chipset?
I've only put together 1 system before ...
P4 2.4B
512 Kingmax PC2700
Gigabyte 667 mobo 845PE
Leadtek ti4400

... so my experience level is minimal but hey! Its fun!
And I'd appreciate any input or leads to help me plan my new A64/939 you-beaut gaming machine.

Thanks for reading this.

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by 64bit_Tounament on 06/09/04 09:10 AM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[jammydodger]

400Mhz is the highest speed RAM you will be able to use in your motherboard because 400Mhz is the highest speed RAM that is Jedec specified.

Any RAM over 400Mhz is for overclocking purposes only, bear in mind if you overclock you FSB you will increase the speed of your CPU aswell so you will need good cooling.

<font color=blue>P4c 2.6@3.25
512Mb PC4000
2x120Gb 7200.7 in RAID0
Waterchill KT12-L30
Abit AI7
Radeon 9800Pro
</font color=blue>

 

[Ned_Flanders]

with the amount of money you seem to have - id reccomend using a water cooling setup to cool the CPu, and as you say, do some mild(ish) o/c

Not the Official Sicko of THG.

 

[scottchen]

Well first of all, F*CK YOU YOU RICH B@STARD!

Okay, i'm not sure if the Nforce3 250pro chipset has been released yet, i have only seen the VIA K8T800Pro chipset hanging around. Athlon64's for the socket754 really loved low latency ram, so i would think socket939 would love the same ram. I highly doubt if the first chipsets for the socket would overclock well. So I would try to aim for the most performance at stock speeds.

Do you really think socket939's a no brainer? You're building this for gaming, so why pay so much more for socket939 when socket754 offers same if not better performance in most games?

<A HREF="http://forums.extremeoverclocking.com/myrig.php?do=view&id=17301" target="_new">My PC</A>

 

[sharps107]

yeah jammydodger, do you remember when ddr266 was teh upper limit of the JEDEC standard?? hmm? wake up buddy! and scottchen, im sick of u people recommending s754 i mean really dont doom people to sucha limited upgrade path.
As for your system, right now the FSB on socket 939 platforms is set to 200mhz so ddr400 will be your default, but wiht overclocking u should be able to reach ddr433(or higher depending on your cooling setup)
since u want to use the Nforce3 250 Ultra(not pro) chipset you WILL have to wait for either the new DFI or MSI boards using that chipset(both great choices) when they do become available and you build your system, i suggest you use the new corsair 3200XL RAM. it supports 2-2-2-5 timings on default ddr400, and can be easily overclocked to ddr500 or higher with more relaxed timings thanks to the kickass samsung chips it uses.
Good luck with your system!

-I'm Laughing At It Now-

 

[scottchen]

How many times have i recommended socket754 over 939? THIS IS THE FIRST F*CKING TIME NUMBNUTS!

Socket754 is upgradable to Athlon64 3700+, and AMD's entire AthlonXP's moving up to it. Have you read the reviews? 939 against 754 in games? and the price difference? THINK BEFORE YOU TALK PLEASE DICKHEAD!!

<A HREF="http://forums.extremeoverclocking.com/myrig.php?do=view&id=17301" target="_new">My PC</A>

 

[scottchen]

Jammy said 400 is JEDEC's highest standard, is anything wrong with that statement? Soon it'll probably go to 533 with the upcoming socket775, but right now it's DDR400! what the hell's wrong with you dumb@ss? having your period? or did you just get f*cked in the ass last night?

<A HREF="http://forums.extremeoverclocking.com/myrig.php?do=view&id=17301" target="_new">My PC</A>

 

[sharps107]

so you consider the athlon xp an 'upgrade from the athlon 64? hmm. My personal opinion is that 939 kicks ass and i stand by my reccomendations


-I'm Laughing At It Now-

 

[scottchen]

I don't recommend socket939 right now is because they're not worth their price. When the 90nm CPUs come out, the socket939's will have newer and improved chipsets, with acceptable prices.

<A HREF="http://forums.extremeoverclocking.com/myrig.php?do=view&id=17301" target="_new">My PC</A>

 

[64bit_Tounament]

Hey, great stuff, thanks for replies so far.

Point one, I aint rich, I just work and save to get what I want. And it will be all I have for probably 2 - 3 yrs hence the research effort ...

Ummm, scottchen, can you point to some info to support your statement that 754 outdoes 939 in gaming apps? That sounds contradictory to what I've read so far.

I'm aware that 400Mhz DDR is JEDEC's highest standard for RAM, but I was aiming purely at providing this system with whatever memory will allow it to perform at its best ( stably, without extreme oc ),
Stick with hi grade dual channel PC3200, or ger PC3500 or higher...
I'm an amateur, I have this impression that 433 or 466 fsb will give better performance than 400 fsb... all other things being equal. O.K, maybe all other things except these RAM timing numbers I'm trying to get my head around.
Thanks for all your opinions on this so far.

Yes I am taking account of cooling needs in planning this system. Never tried h2o before. Will I need that? Surely a really good hsf setup for cpu as well as good case airflow will be adequate?
I understand the importance of cooling but could do with more ideas or input to help me get it right.

sharps107, thanks for advice on mobo and memory, I hadn't decided for sure on nForce3 250 ( and yes, it probably would be the pro or ultra version ) just that so far what I had read made it sound like a good choice.

Thanks all

 

[scottchen]

Guess you haven't been reading the reviews too much...

Read 3400+ vs 3500+ reviews from toms, anand, xbit, the difference between them is +-5%, sometimes 3400+ wins, sometimes 3500+ wins, i've personally got my hand on them both, honest truth no difference in games, if games are the only things you're into, then...

true socket939 gives you more upgradability, but with upcoming PCI-Express and BTX, i don't think there's such a thing as future-proof.

<A HREF="http://forums.extremeoverclocking.com/myrig.php?do=view&id=17301" target="_new">My PC</A>

 

[scottchen]

watercooling is a good investement i believe, since most waterblocks can use socket adaptors for future upgrades. You just buy the components once pretty much, unlike heatsink/fan which you have to change with every socket change. And with water you can achieve great cooling at 0 noise level.

<A HREF="http://forums.extremeoverclocking.com/myrig.php?do=view&id=17301" target="_new">My PC</A>

 

[scottchen]

But don't get me wrong, I have NOTHING against socket939, i would get one if i had tons of cash to blow away, which for me isn't the case right now, so i'm not throwing my money away on something that costs a LOT for minimum performance advantage over something cheaper.

I have the chance to buy one right now, but probably going with something like this instead:
Athlon64 3200+
MSI K8N Neo Platinum
2x512 Samsung PC3200 ram
maybe a video card once i see some real retail card benchies on the 6800.
This will hold me 'til summer-autumn next year maybe even winter when AMD gets their winchester chips ready.

But that's just me, i'm just saying right now Socket939 isn't worth the money, but if you got the money to spend, then hey it's the best out there.

<A HREF="http://forums.extremeoverclocking.com/myrig.php?do=view&id=17301" target="_new">My PC</A>

 

[jammydodger]

Yes 433 or 466Mhz FSB would prob give you better performance but you would HAVE to overclock your CPU to do that.

A lot of motherboards let you set the memory speed at something larger than the FSB (Async operation) however the memory controller for the Athlon FX and 64 is integrated into the CPU. Therefore PC3200 is the limit without overclocking!

<font color=blue>P4c 2.6@3.25
512Mb PC4000
2x120Gb 7200.7 in RAID0
Waterchill KT12-L30
Abit AI7
Radeon 9800Pro
</font color=blue>

 

[64bit_Tounament]

Yes, have read ( and just now reread ) THG, Anand, Xbit reviews on 939/940/754 etc.
Anand underclocked a 3800+ to get 3500+ scores as they didn't have a 3500+ yet, guess that tells me that it's still early days for socket 939. Hence expensive days.
But yes, I see what you mean, indications so far show only a very small gain ( gaming ) for a significant price difference between comparable 754/939 systems.

You also make sense when you talk of balancing cost/performance now against upgrade possibilties of the next 12-24 months. Of course, it all comes down to money, and I dont have enogh to build something like this every year. Food for thought.

Good point on h2o ... works on the next cpu as well. Hmmm.
Still, to a newbie, water cooling has such a hardcore kind of feel to it.

I will be quite happy to carefully overclock ( with temp monitoring and good cooling ) the cpu to get a performance gain from having synchronous 433, or maybe 466 Mhz.
My oc experience is very limited ... BTW my gigabyte mobo BIOS wont let me see RAM timings ... I read somewhere that hitting alt and F1 during start up would get me access, but I doesn't seem to work ... Gigabyte 8a pe667 i845PE chipset (non-ultra)..

ummm, what was I saying, oh yes... provided I do the right things with cooling and psu then I think an A64 gaming sys would benefit from a synch 433 or even 466 Mhz bus, and do so with no real danger of melting expensive wafers.
I understand voided warranties, I'm aware of my limited knowledge/experience, and am trying to do the research first as best I can.
So, am I barking up the wrong tree?

Appreciate all comments

 

[jammydodger]

If your cooling is good there is no harm in trying, just dont expect miricles becuase I dont think the FX series in their current incarnation overclock very well.

<font color=blue>P4c 2.6@3.25
512Mb PC4000
2x120Gb 7200.7 in RAID0
Waterchill KT12-L30
Abit AI7
Radeon 9800Pro
</font color=blue>

 

[sharps107]

well i still belive your best bet would be the corsair 3200XL memory because it provides the best performance on teh market at ddr400 adn can overclock to ddr433 or ddr466 if you are ventually planning that. the 939 mobos do outperform 754 in games, because of their dual channel memory setup. teh Nforce3 250 ultra IS a great choice, but it is probaly true that the current 130nm cpus dont overclock very well even with water cooling. as for a HSF, thermalright beats am all in pure performance using a high airflow fan like vantec's tornado.
a sidenote, all these things are great and worth waiting for, but as im sure you've heard before no matter what you wait for there will always be something better just peeking over the horizon. So waiit for 90nm is you want, wait for cheaper mobos, wait for advanced chipsets, wait for ddr2, pci-e, BTX, sata-300, dual graphics, etc...
get my point?

-I'm Laughing At It Now-

 

[scottchen]

The Corsair XL series' price is VERY HIGH!! In fact more expensive than most PC4000 out there... Might as well get something that's guranteed 250mhz.

It's true with dual channel in theory the s939 should beat s754 in games by a lot, but with the reduced cache, lots of times it losses to its smaller brother.

<A HREF="http://forums.extremeoverclocking.com/myrig.php?do=view&id=17301" target="_new">My PC</A>

 

[Guest]

Have read a bit more about corsairxl 3200 now. Yes I can see why this stuff costs so much. Also Mushkin, they actually have a guarantee on their blackline stuff that isnt immediately voided by ocing a bit.
Also found 2 Gig dual channel corsair twinx pro pack as in 2 x 1024 PC3200 ( *price*shudder*cringe* ), though I gather 2Gig is overkill.

Sooooo, I can see that CorsairXL is top draw stuff ( had any experience with Mushkin? )
I don't want to be cheap with memory for this thing.
I seriously see this A64 games thing I'm going to build running in synch at 433 Mhz easily enough. I can see what you mean, CorsairXL would give me the best for trying the sys at 400Mhz with fastest timings, and then ocing toward 433.
Wouldn't an A64 with quality RAM justify a bandwidth increase? Or should I chase memory timings over bandwidth?
O.K, maybe I am talking about a performance difference thats f.a. to the eye... but thats not the point

Ummm, one more question.... whats this T1 and T2 mean with regard to memory??

 

[Guest]

Yep, the thermalright is my choice for cooling, it should cope with mild oc temp with a good fan.
Maybe try water next time.

 

[sharps107]

good choice on the cooling, and to compare the mushkin RAM To teh corsair 3200XL, here the lowdown.
the mushkin RAM taht supports 2-2-2 timings uses discontinued chips that are no less than legendary in the gaming community. these chips are in such high demand (because they are no longer manufactured) that mushkin has only a small and limited supply of this RAM remaining. Corsair's 3200XL on the other hand uses new samsung chips that are in great supply and corsair claims taht they will never run out thanks to an aggreement with samsung. these samsung chips perform on par with the discontinued chips in mushkin memory, and corsair even advertises on their site that the XL memory can do ddr500 with 2.5-3-3-7 timings, so i assume that it doesnt void the warranty if u overclock to these levels. (dont kno though) and yes, s754 is good as far as price is concerned, and in fact you may be able to squeze a few extra Mhz out of s754 processors because the new ones in 939 socket generate so much more heat. (i shudder to think how the transition to 90nm will go). but id still say u should go wiht 939 simply for the sake of upgradeability.

-I'm Laughing At It Now-