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Thank you president

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November 27, 2011 3:08:30 PM

Work in the oil and gas industry.
Lately we have suffered job cuts, pay cuts. benifits cut etc.

Can't blame George Bush.

green energy great. Buy as a consumer no $ incentives.

I wan't to vote now!!!

More about : president

November 27, 2011 6:36:25 PM

The argument goes, there really isnt any oil, and so why try?
Of course, when were talking real people, real jobs, even the greatest apologist of green and liberal thought has to slow it down some
November 27, 2011 8:42:07 PM

There is more an more instances of depleted oil wells replenishing themselves, which adds to the argument that the earth produces petroleum/oil naturally.

Of course, that's a crazy conspiracy theory as some might say here.

Our president is occupied with managing the decline of the United States, he doesn't care about people, jobs, and prosperity. Just the agenda.
Related resources
November 28, 2011 9:19:52 AM

Actually the oild and gas and process manufacturing related industry in the energy sector is one that has NOT been one as dramatically effected since 2008.

In fact, infrastructure related captital expenditure for new Oil and Gas and Mining has remained high.

Regarding operations staff I'd guess that labour hire costs for technical and engineering related workers is still excellent ... but it is more of an employers market now.

November 28, 2011 12:04:01 PM

Oil production in the Gulf of Mexico has been effectively shut down since the BP spill. Thousands of oil industry jobs have been lost which also severely affects the other support industries; hotels, restaurants, car rentals, etc. The loss of jobs in the oil industry in the Gulf has hit local fishermen very hard as well. With not as many mouths to feed, its more difficult to sell what they catch to local restaurants.

Of course, China, Cuba, and South Korea are drilling away just fine in the Gulf of Mexico.
November 28, 2011 12:57:33 PM

What I don't get is, if Oil companies are having record profits why wont they hire?

4 of the 5 top grossing companies are oil providers, so its not like they are really hurting.

I know how you feel about oil being able to replenish itself but it is a finite resource.



November 28, 2011 1:22:39 PM

wanamingo said:
What I don't get is, if Oil companies are having record profits why wont they hire?

4 of the 5 top grossing companies are oil providers, so its not like they are really hurting.

I know how you feel about oil being able to replenish itself but it is a finite resource.



Have you seen per barrel price latley? http://www.oil-price.net/

That's why they are making record profits.

They are producing, and hiring. Just not in the Gulf states region.

There is also a ton of uncertainty about the future. Businesses have to be able to predict future costs, which they can't do right now mainly because of the uncertainty of the cost of implementing Obamacare. That is one of the biggest reasons. The other is pollitical uncertainty. They are playing the wait and see what happens game before committing to any particular course of action.
November 28, 2011 1:48:02 PM

Oldmangamer_73 said:
Have you seen per barrel price latley? http://www.oil-price.net/

That's why they are making record profits.

They are producing, and hiring. Just not in the Gulf states region.

There is also a ton of uncertainty about the future. Businesses have to be able to predict future costs, which they can't do right now mainly because of the uncertainty of the cost of implementing Obamacare. That is one of the biggest reasons. The other is pollitical uncertainty. They are playing the wait and see what happens game before committing to any particular course of action.


That sounds like being taken hostage to me.

"You need to reassure us and make us feel comfortable before we start hiring and making oil products affordable"

Another reason we need to get off of oil, so these companies cant push people around.
November 28, 2011 2:05:29 PM

The whole "green economy" is a complete joke and totally mishandled by the Obama Administration. Rather than begin an easy transition into a green energy economy and spending our tax dollars an ALL FORMS of renewable energy and then letting the market decide what alternative energy sources will succeed, the Obama Administration has ruled by fiat and constricted the coal, oil, and natural gas industries in favor of unrealistic solar programs and failed solar companies. Heck, the best success Obama and the Dumbocrats can claim is the market failure of the Chevy Volt.

I think Newt Gingrich put it best during the 11/22/2011 Republican debate.
Quote:
Well, I say you — the question you just asked is perfect, because the fact is we ought to have a massive all-sources energy program in the United States designed to, once again, create a surplus of energy here, so we could say to the Europeans pretty cheerfully, that all the various sources of oil we have in the United States, we could literally replace the Iranian oil...But let me make a deeper point. There’s a core thing that’s wrong with this whole city (Washington DC). You said earlier that it would take too long to open up American oil. We defeated Nazi Germany, fascist Italy , and Imperial Japan in three years and eight months because we thought we were serious...If we were serious, we would open up enough oil fields in the next year that the price of oil worldwide would collapse. Now, that’s what we would do if we were a serious country. If we were serious…
November 28, 2011 2:28:14 PM

wanamingo said:
That sounds like being taken hostage to me.

"You need to reassure us and make us feel comfortable before we start hiring and making oil products affordable"

Another reason we need to get off of oil, so these companies cant push people around.



You also have to remember that oil is only traded in dollars. The dollar is deliberately being de-valued which is artificially driving up the per barrel price.

Also remember that American oil companies do not set the world per barrel price. Exxon is a relatively small oil company, total % wise of the market, compared to the state run behemoths of Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Venezuela, OPEC.

Yes, I think businesses should have a resonable expectation that the jokers in power will stop dicking around things, policy wise and create some sort of stability they can count on, now and into the future. I don't think that's unreasonable, do you?
November 28, 2011 9:09:40 PM

Record profits are driven by record pricing, period.
The oil companies have generally held a certian percentage as a profit margin, or their costs then a given percentage.
Since oil has escalated, the profits have risen, tho, with the uncertain markets, the unwillingness of this admins to use our oil as clout in the market, this admins teeteroring on the brink of shutdowns, moratoriums, taxes and regulations, the oil companies, along with many businesses, have held off hiring.
Regarding thre somewhat brighter outlook overseaas, they dont currently have this conundrum, and tho 11000 jobs seems plentiful, its but a drop in the bucket if things were changed here in the US.
The energy industry has been held hostage by this admin, with the admin pointing its finger.
Its a shame really, as many would really prosper if this were changed

PS:
Just a thought.
China undervalued its monies for years, as the US complained alot about this, but China choose to do what it wanted
Ive a feeling, short term, this is a make up scenario, as soon/eventually, a new admin will take over, and wield the power of the US energy capabilities
November 28, 2011 9:15:50 PM

Oldmangamer_73 said:
That's why they are making record profits.

This is 100% wrong. If you would have said revenue, then I would have agreed, but:

Profit = Revenue - Cost

So if Profits are up, up, up, then either revenue is up or cost is down, or a little bit of both.


Oil companies in collusion for a profit can tell you all they want.

Also concerning the Gulf of Mexico; does the oil industry trump all other markets that employ Americans? A large number of Gulf states are fishing and tourist centric and this has had a huge impact on their respective industries. Reuters.

This is a blog post, but it highlights the impact across all the Gulf states hit by the spill:
BP Oil Disaster at One Year: Regional Economic Impact

Quote:
And yet the oil industry would have us believe it suffered greatly during the temporary moratorium on new drilling. The fact of the matter is: the Gulf produced 1.6 million barrels of oil per day last year—an all-time record


Quote:
The Gulf Coast Claims Facility paid 174,172 claims to individuals and businesses who have suffered damages and costs related to the spill. That’s more than 500 times the oil industry claims.


174,000 affected businesses is much more than the 11,000 potential jobs, which is a "drop in the bucket" as has been stated.

On the Newt Gingrich comment:
During WW2, Standard Oil (Rockefeller) was the only oil company that produced fuel with an additive that was needed for Nazi airplanes to fly. If it only took us 3 years to win WW2, then why did we wait till we were dragged in while all of our allies were getting pummeled? Because it stood to make money while we turned a blind eye. Although I don't disagree with what Newt is saying, fundamentally (opening American wells), my problem is that with the way our crony-capitalism already works, the American people would still stand to loose as the oil industry would continue to collude. What reason do they have to not?
November 28, 2011 9:24:21 PM

How is the cleanup going on the coastline there guys?

I ask because most of you live along that region.

I sincerely hope the area is recovering.
November 28, 2011 9:34:42 PM

I'd also like to know as I personally have had friends lose employment over the oil spill. I'm far west coast, so I don't have a clue on the first-hand status of the area.
November 29, 2011 12:15:46 PM

l0ckd0wn said:
This is 100% wrong. If you would have said revenue, then I would have agreed, but:

Profit = Revenue - Cost

So if Profits are up, up, up, then either revenue is up or cost is down, or a little bit of both.


Oil companies in collusion for a profit can tell you all they want.

Also concerning the Gulf of Mexico; does the oil industry trump all other markets that employ Americans? A large number of Gulf states are fishing and tourist centric and this has had a huge impact on their respective industries. Reuters.

This is a blog post, but it highlights the impact across all the Gulf states hit by the spill:
BP Oil Disaster at One Year: Regional Economic Impact

Quote:
And yet the oil industry would have us believe it suffered greatly during the temporary moratorium on new drilling. The fact of the matter is: the Gulf produced 1.6 million barrels of oil per day last year—an all-time record


Quote:
The Gulf Coast Claims Facility paid 174,172 claims to individuals and businesses who have suffered damages and costs related to the spill. That’s more than 500 times the oil industry claims.


174,000 affected businesses is much more than the 11,000 potential jobs, which is a "drop in the bucket" as has been stated.

On the Newt Gingrich comment:
During WW2, Standard Oil (Rockefeller) was the only oil company that produced fuel with an additive that was needed for Nazi airplanes to fly. If it only took us 3 years to win WW2, then why did we wait till we were dragged in while all of our allies were getting pummeled? Because it stood to make money while we turned a blind eye. Although I don't disagree with what Newt is saying, fundamentally (opening American wells), my problem is that with the way our crony-capitalism already works, the American people would still stand to loose as the oil industry would continue to collude. What reason do they have to not?


The current price is the reason lockdown. Let's take Exxon as our example as information about its costs and profits are easier to find than Saudi Arabia's. Exxon's costs have not risen, so the rise in the per barrel price is profit. It is artifically inflated though because of the de-valuing of the dollar.

Exxon makes between $0.02 - $0.07 on every gallon. Their profit margin is around 8.24% this year, 2011.

Now, compare that to state governments profits. The lowest I could find was Georgia at $0.075 cpg, and the highest Wisconsin at $0.321 cpg. That is pure profit and its not being paid by Exxon, that's paid by you and I and anyone who purchases gasoline. This does not include the $0.18 federal tax. The feds make 9 times the profit of Exxon per gallon and do nothing for it.

Exxon has to explore for it, find it, jump through 10 years of permits, EPA hearings, numerous environmental lawsuits, rogue judges holding up progress indefinately, etc. Then, Exxon has to extract it, transport it, refine it, then finally distribute it all over the world for $0.02 on the gallon. And we condemn Exxon for this?

Compare Exxons profit margin to Big Milk's profit margin of 39%!! 39% Is an insane profit margin. My company would kill for that profit margin.

Then, take Big Water, who's profit margins range from 50% - 200%!!! And we want to condemn Exxon that provides so much for a measley $0.02 on the gallon?? Put things in perspective here.

On WW2. We couldn't enter the European theatre until 1944 becuase we had no military. it was dismantled and mothballed after WW1. There are famous pictures of our troops training holding a big sign labeled "Tank" becuase we had no real tanks for them to train with. It wasn't because of Rockefeller.
November 29, 2011 5:47:01 PM

Oldmangamer_73 said:
On WW2. We couldn't enter the European theatre until 1944 becuase we had no military. it was dismantled and mothballed after WW1. There are famous pictures of our troops training holding a big sign labeled "Tank" becuase we had no real tanks for them to train with. It wasn't because of Rockefeller.
Not only that but after WW1, America moved to an isolationist foreign policy and held the position of not being the world's peacekeeper. America's foreign policy changed in the months leading up to and immediately after Pearl Harbor.

Fact is there were a number of companies, not just oil companies, that sold products to the Nazi's prior to Pearl Harbor and America's involvement in WW2. Prior to Pearl Harbor, there were embargoes stopping American companies from selling arms and weapons to enemies, but no policy or government position stopping American companies from selling their products and services in the global market. At that point in our history and compared to today, government was not anywhere near as involved in the affairs of private companies. The American government supported capitalism and allowed businesses to flourish. Also, there is a big difference between selling products to an enemy and simple war profiteering.

Blame the cronies, not capitalism! Look no further than Nancy Pelosi and John Boehner as prime examples of promoting legislation and then benefiting from the stock sales. Can you say insider trading?! But they're special, they get a free pass, they're in Congress!





November 29, 2011 7:43:59 PM

:lol:  @ OMG73.

LATimes from back in April.

Quote:
"This is a page torn right out of the handbook of gouge-onomics," said Charles Langley, senior gasoline analyst at the Utility Consumers' Action Network in San Diego. "We call it the law of supply and demand: They supply less product and demand more money for it."


Keep apologizing for all these entities, I know the appreciate it. (more :lol:  )

Oh, and I love the justification of selling products to the Nazi's is ok because no one told them it wasn't ok. You, like Rockefeller see higher value in paper money than human beings.

This is the same BS that our Congress does; change their portfolios before changing legislation and thus everyone connected to that business gets an indirect payout! This is the reason I'm so much against Lobbying and business special interests.

But, like the climate talk, no opinions will change here through this conversation.

Also, Chunky, I don't blame capitalism, I blame crony-capitialism as you've already stated and highlighted with that article.

The writing is on the wall, you just can't have your head buried in those (oil) sands to read it.



PS
If capitalism was operating in the way it was supposed to and that means without external influence, then things wouldn't be the way they are. We need protectionist policies that put American products on the same cost level as imported products. We've moved so far away from manufacturing and are in so cozy with foreign companies and companies that only have a PO-Box on American soil and say that they are an "American" company that those truly American small businesses get run out of business because of costs, due in part to the way we pamper foreign investments. This was one of the key things I pulled away from my economics courses in college, years ago. Now the cost of labor and manufacturing is going up elsewhere because we've let foreign economies catch up, all while the wealth divide in the US grows as those connected to profitable investments hoard their money and scream "socialism" when things are attempted to be balanced out. It's all interconnected, but I don't see the positive in letting oil/gas companies fleece the people while they get huge tax breaks.

To go along with what I was saying about Capitalism, here is another article from ABC. It blames the Speculators, per IHS Global ( a huge "intelligence" gathering firm that is worldwide, not sure who the take money from). Speculators aritifically drive up the cost of any good the speculate on creating bubbles within the economy, the problem is speculating works for both the business and the speculator while the people getting shafted are the ones using the product speculated. This has happened for years, and again is attribute to crony-capitalism IMO (insider information for short term profits).
November 29, 2011 8:33:53 PM

You certainly were well indoctrinated in your economics classes.......years ago, that's for sure.

8% profit margin is NOT a gouge you knucklehead. Your irrational hatred for the oil industry, especially an American company that employs many thousands of Americans, and which many Americans retirement portfolios are tied up in is just that, irrational.

Our own President Roosevelt praised Hitler as one of the worlds greatest leaders as late as 1939, same for Mussolini. And you wonder why American companies sold them goods? Less you forget your dates, 1939 was well after Hitlers march through much of Europe and 1 year before the invasion of France and he was being openly praised by the American President.

These aren't Nazis. These are American school children in the 1930's saluting the American flag. Nice to see indoctrination methods haven't changed.

Check it out: http://ryviewpoint.blogspot.com/2011/03/changing-styles...
November 29, 2011 11:15:17 PM

Alright, I don't know why you feel the need to call names, but I'm going to ask you again to refrain from it please, I am not referring to you in such a manner, I'm not sure why you need to refer to me in such a way (Oh and before you quote the climategate thread, I honestly felt I was being trolled by a minor and thus I made my case).

I will agree that most any profit under 10% is by far not price gouging, but the figures for 2010 are closer to 14% - I pulled this data from their Wiki page, which links to the SEC doc. I'm not going to go so far to say that this is unreasonable, but I will say that the speculation end of natural resources is driving costs super high, which is an unnatural manipulation of a market for the profit of a few. However, on the tax side of things, Exxon doesn't pay 35% federal income tax (they paid 0% again in 2010), and I don't see the benefits being passed off to the consumer, only the company stock holders, which again benefits only the few while we plump up their 15% taxable income.

Take this from CNN Money: Exxon is a company that chooses to do business where it pleases, and the places it chose to do business cost the company US $15 Billion in foreign taxes. Because they then had the ability to deduct those moneys from their US obligation left them at $-156 Million. Their local and state tax obligations only came to $110 Million. That means they jack up our prices to ease their tax burdens in other countries. I can't see how this contributes to the US in a positive way as 83000 =/= 300,000,000. They jack up our prices to pay the taxes in foreign places that they chose to do business in. I have conflicted views on offshore drilling because of the catastrophic impacts mistakes makes, but I've never seen a problem with tapping our own resources, we already do it for natural gas and a limited supply on oil, why have we been holding off (reminiscent of "drill baby drill")? (Before you say Democrats; ) Let me say that I've never been against in country drilling, in fact I've always seen it as a solution, I just want rigorous standards to keeping the oil where it is supposed to be without being a huge unnatural disaster that destroy's our OTHER natural resources. That alone would change the scope of the conversation. But even still it's almost a red herring as the problems in N. Africa and the Middle East should not affect us as much as they do because the majority of our oil does not come from there, in fact of the 60% of our oil that is imported, only 1/2 of it comes from locations outside of the Western Hemisphere. Thus the artificial bolstering of cost is directly related to speculation. Source. Oh, the next page talks about Chevron, same apologist tone in the article too.
November 30, 2011 1:09:05 AM

Also, just because the gulf made record returns, the exact opposite of what we hear all the time, as oil has "capped", now we hear reverse argumentation, saying its all a hoax, and they only say this to charge more, and was it Americans getting all that record oil out of the gulf?
Now, which is it, has oil peaked?
Or, are they just charging more, while doing less?
Also, their profit margins, which I addressed earlier went unread evidently, and is very decent, and yes, theyre more than paying their fare share, because, were the ones paying it already now, and any further increases means we will only pay more down the road, again, thanks to our president, and all those big government tax raisers/
Trying to take up two sides of an argument doesnt work, tho, people seem to think, or NOT think really, when all the indoctrination is oil=bad, government=good, and taxing them, thus making government larger, while we the people pay the bill somehow just doesnt catch on to those who really need to understand economics better
November 30, 2011 1:28:48 AM

JAYDEEJOHN said:
Also, just because the gulf made record returns, the exact opposite of what we hear all the time, as oil has "capped", now we hear reverse argumentation, saying its all a hoax, and they only say this to charge more, and was it Americans getting all that record oil out of the gulf?
Now, which is it, has oil peaked?
Or, are they just charging more, while doing less?

Also, their profit margins, which I addressed earlier went unread evidently, and is very decent, and yes, theyre more than paying their fare share, because, were the ones paying it already now, and any further increases means we will only pay more down the road, again, thanks to our president, and all those big government tax raisers/
Trying to take up two sides of an argument doesnt work, tho, people seem to think, or NOT think really, when all the indoctrination is oil=bad, government=good, and taxing them, thus making government larger, while we the people pay the bill somehow just doesnt catch on to those who really need to understand economics better


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Anybody else seeing this?


Agreed JayDeeJohn.

And you are right, I think most skipped over what you said earlier, so here it is again:

JAYDEEJOHN said:
Record profits are driven by record pricing, period.
The oil companies have generally held a certian percentage as a profit margin, or their costs then a given percentage.
Since oil has escalated, the profits have risen, tho, with the uncertain markets, the unwillingness of this admins to use our oil as clout in the market, this admins teeteroring on the brink of shutdowns, moratoriums, taxes and regulations, the oil companies, along with many businesses, have held off hiring.
Regarding thre somewhat brighter outlook overseaas, they dont currently have this conundrum, and tho 11000 jobs seems plentiful, its but a drop in the bucket if things were changed here in the US.
The energy industry has been held hostage by this admin, with the admin pointing its finger.
Its a shame really, as many would really prosper if this were changed

PS:
Just a thought.
China undervalued its monies for years, as the US complained alot about this, but China choose to do what it wanted
Ive a feeling, short term, this is a make up scenario, as soon/eventually, a new admin will take over, and wield the power of the US energy capabilities

November 30, 2011 12:37:08 PM

1) Oil 'Profits' are up mainly due to 'creative accounting' more than anything , although market speculation driving prices over $100 a barrell doesnt hurt either
2) yes American Companies sold goods and services to both Japan and Hitler BEFORE were at war with them. it was called the 'free market' ..Hitler was the legit elected leader of a soveriegn country with whom we had diplomatic relations. and for the MOST part his war agenda was unknown to outside world until he unleashed it. things like the 'Death camps' were only thought to be rumors until they were actually discoverd. bear in mind today we have hindsight. in 1939 we did not.
2A) Indeed America had dismantled and mothballed its Army , in fact it is only AFTER WWII that US kept a standing army of any real strength or size. for example when Japan invaded the Phillipines, the US soldiers there broke open the armory to distrubite weapons to fight the invading army with. those weapons consisted of crates of Springfeild Rifles that were packed and 1919 ..ie they were still using the guns from WWI. the Bataan Death March shortly ensued.
3) Most of US Companies have a net Profit of aorund 2% ..there is a big difference between actual take home, and 'Margins' on paper.
4) The Oil spill in the Gulf was NO where near the disaster the news made it out to be. The 'Lamestream News Media' over exagerated it only to give credence to Big O's 'Green Energy' agenda ..the net effect was that Ban on Gulf Drilling had a far worse impact than the actuall spill. I live in FL (on the atlantic side, but still close enough)
5) with the Complete and utter Epic Fail of Solyndra and other Green attempts, the US is about to embark on the prolly the Biggest energy drive it has ever seen. the New Tech available to companies allows much more effficient production of Oil,Gas, things like being able to Drill Sideways etc and this can be done without destroying the environment. and btw, this is NOT being done by our Epic Fail Big Govt. this is going to be done by BIG Business and Big Oil. they have set an agenda for the US to Completely Energy Independant by 2020-2025 ..this is a losty goal, but America hasits ability to achieve lofty goals when they put their minds to it (defeating Hitler and Japan in less than 4 yrs, Going to the Moon, etc) Big Business is tired of dealing with 3rd World Countries that 'bite the hand that feeds them' . and Business is taking a 'no holds barred' approach, Oil, Gas, Nuclear, Steam, Solar, they dont care as long it works, and gets the Country away from feeding the people that Hate us, but love our money,food,medicine, and Iphones. The 3rd world is about to be reminded what it is like to live in 3rd world without the big bad evil ole USA.
November 30, 2011 12:37:14 PM

l0ckd0wn said:
Oh, and I love the justification of selling products to the Nazi's is ok because no one told them it wasn't ok. You, like Rockefeller see higher value in paper money than human beings.

This is the same BS that our Congress does; change their portfolios before changing legislation and thus everyone connected to that business gets an indirect payout! This is the reason I'm so much against Lobbying and business special interests.
Understand that the comments about collusion between oil companies and government being the reason for America's delayed entry into WW2 ignores the proper historical perspective. There is no justification or apology necessary for companies who sold products and services to the Nazi's prior to Pearl Harbor and the fundamental change in foreign policy that resulted. It is only through hindsight that people can judge whether it was right or wrong and regardless of what today's opinion may be, it was, simply put, a different time in America. It's easy to Monday-morning-quarterback and criticize, what is perceived to be by modern opinion, the wrong thing to do in America's history. Lastly, the assertion that it was okay for companies to sell products to the Nazi's because there was a lack of legislation telling them not to is just bogus and, again, ignores the proper historical perspective.

l0ckd0wn said:
Also, Chunky, I don't blame capitalism, I blame crony-capitialism as you've already stated and highlighted with that article.

The writing is on the wall, you just can't have your head buried in those (oil) sands to read it.



21977,18,1021351 said:
PS
If capitalism was operating in the way it was supposed to and that means without external influence, then things wouldn't be the way they are. We need protectionist policies that put American products on the same cost level as imported products. We've moved so far away from manufacturing and are in so cozy with foreign companies and companies that only have a PO-Box on American soil and say that they are an "American" company that those truly American small businesses get run out of business because of costs, due in part to the way we pamper foreign investments. This was one of the key things I pulled away from my economics courses in college, years ago. Now the cost of labor and manufacturing is going up elsewhere because we've let foreign economies catch up, all while the wealth divide in the US grows as those connected to profitable investments hoard their money and scream "socialism" when things are attempted to be balanced out. It's all interconnected, but I don't see the positive in letting oil/gas companies fleece the people while they get huge tax breaks.

To go along with what I was saying about Capitalism, here is another article from ABC. It blames the Speculators, per IHS Global ( a huge "intelligence" gathering firm that is worldwide, not sure who the take money from). Speculators aritifically drive up the cost of any good the speculate on creating bubbles within the economy, the problem is speculating works for both the business and the speculator while the people getting shafted are the ones using the product speculated. This has happened for years, and again is attribute to crony-capitalism IMO (insider information for short term profits).
said:
Aside from the incorrect historical perspective and calling out crony-capitalism as the reason for America's delayed entry into WW2, I pretty much agree with everything else.

If you remember, this past summer, there was proposed legislation to rein in speculators, but was quickly squashed by the embedded legislative cronyism.

We seriously need to vote out all of the known cronies in Congress and especially any Senator or Representative that has been in office for more than 5 years! We need to repeal the 17th Amendment! We need to pass an Amendment that makes any and all laws passed by Congress binding to members of Congress. And, we need a balanced budget Amendment!
November 30, 2011 1:27:42 PM

Amen monster!

The U.S. Constitution and American Capitalism requires a good and moral people. When we are not a good and moral people we get what we have now with all the cronyism and collusion between the private and public sectors.

We are no longer a good and moral people and I will give you an example.

I was out with my girlfriend this past weekend. 3 separate men hit on her right in front of me. She is very chatty and a little flirty but that's just becuase she's not a b*tch. Well, men being men take that as her wanting to sleep with them because men are idiots when it comes to women. I have no problem with her talking to other men but that doesn't give them permission to put their hands on her.

The worse part? All three men were married and were out without their wives!!

We are no longer a good and moral people. This why things are the way they are right now.
November 30, 2011 7:57:12 PM

FYI, Rockefeller sold oil to Germany through 1942, 3 years after the war started.

I didn't know that cooperating with the enemy of our allies was free and clear of scrutiny.

Also, please iterate what the "proper" historical perspective is, because I'm missing what that perspective is supposed to be (Post Pearl Harbor?). Oh, and I wasn't inferring that the reason we didn't enter the war was because of collusion, I'm just inferring that the same type of insider information was available back then and more so if you consider that the "ruling elite" back then were much fewer in number than they are today - This was my mistake as my phrasing was misleading, but I honestly was not trying to portray WW2 as the way it was taken, I was merely talking about Standard Oil's role in WW2, which I feel was unethical and greedy at best.

PS
I'm also not trying to come off like a conspiracy theorist, but there is over a million hits on google for "ww2 standard oil." There has also been quite a few books written on the subject matter as well.
December 1, 2011 12:15:01 AM

LockDown you do realize that it was only the war in Europe that had started 3 years prior to 1942 , and that America did enter the war until AFTER Pearl Harbor ..gawd I hope you at least know date and year Pearl Harbor occured.
..were there "war Profiteers" who worked both sides of the fence ? yes , there always are in war.
1) Standard sold NO Oil (crude, or refined) to Nazi Germany Post Wartime restrictions. what you are Probably refering to is 'Additives' or Certain other 'Petroleum Products' that were not specified in the restrictions. things like those 'Hi Octane' Boost stuff you buy at the auto parts store. or lubricating oil. or heating oil or some other product. and there is still no proof that John D himself was directly involved ..it prolly some Jr VP who made a side deal. and then you never know if the product is actually being used for its intended purpose. may have sold Heating Oil , to keep German kids from freezing to death in the Winter..and then the Nazis took it used for war machines , this is a possible example or scenario.

2) remember IBM sold to Hitler some of the first 'computers' they were Card punch sorting machines. that were designed to make an accurate count for Census. Hitler and the Nazis ..then took those machines and modified them to include info like race,religion, ethnicity.. IBM designed them simply to make a faster and more accurate census count. after the war , they (IBM) were Horrified to find out that their machines had been modded to tag people for the 'Final Solution' ..after the war Camp survivors actually Sued IBM for selling the machines..and IBM paid out big bucks to settle. as it brought up a strange question of liability. the Intended use of the machine was NOT Genecide, yet it was those machines that allowed for the swiftness with which Nazis were able to round people up. IBM , NEVER intended them for that use. now these SAME Machines were used during the war by US to help the Air Force build ability and effectiveness in bombing. everything from why a plane had to turn around before it hit its' target (engine failure, if so what kind, fuel leak, loss of cabin pressure, pilot sickness etc ) to srting who would make good pilots..these SAME Machines used by our side helped the US go from NO Air Force whatsoever , to Dominating the Skies and Air Power being largely attributed to winning the war and thus saving millions of lives. Same Machines ..different uses. it is a tuff call as to whether IBM could be considered an Evil War Profiteering corporation.

3) I am still amazed at the ignorance of history people have today..and why they are seem to be ONLY Focused on US based Companies.. Take Mitsubishi ..today they make Cars..in 1939 they made the planes and Zeros that Bombed Pearl Harbor ..why aren't you railing against them as an evil corporation. or Take for instance Mercedes and BMW (Bavarian Motor Works) or even VW ..you do you realize that these German Companies ALL made vehicles for the Nazi Army ..it always amazes when I see some Rap Star sporting his new BMW ..prolly has no idea that the BMW symbol (legend has it) is a Nazi Arian symbol ..it supposedly a white propeller flying thru a blue sky, the White (symbolizing the Nazi Arian), propeller being a symbol of nazi Air Power dominating the open blue sky (as they made they made the engines for the Luftwaffe) ..I cannot confirm this, but I have seen a few reports on the subject. and I just dont have the time to properly research it..or take Krupps ..today they make things like coffee machines..in 1939 they made most of the steel used in Nazi War machine and used a lot of slave labor to do it. why are you not 'scrutinizing' these companies ?
2) Bear in mind also that American companies made the US vehicles ..ever heard of the Chrysler Jeep ..geuss what they made in 1942 ...American Car companies made the Tanks ..Boeing and Lockheed-Martin and other companies made the planes those famous P51 Mustangs , B17 Bombers etc etc ..
4) Wait till you learn how american Mafia KingPins, even from prison , used their underworld influence to help America with the Invasion of Sicily ..

I just dont understand why ALL the focus is on American companies = bad ..while companies in Other countries who have done Far Worse ..seem to get a free pass. wait till you learn about the Russian trans-Siberian railroad for example.
And just because its on google does not make it true ..if I put up a website saying that I am the King of Siam ..which I could do. does not actually make me the King of Siam.
December 1, 2011 2:01:28 AM

ltrazaklt, you do realize that my first line covers that, as he sold oil to our enemies for the FIRST 3 YEARS of the war. I didn't know that because we were not at war yet that Europe was no longer an ally, if I have the wrong perception of this, then please correct me.

1.) If you re-read what I wrote, I asked if they were referring to post Pearl Harbor, no one responded. (Thus why i put it in quotes as I was supposed to be corrected about my historical outlook; hasn't happened yet.)

2.) Same scenario; selling products to the enemy or our allies. However, I do not know if they willingly did it during war time; Rockefeller did. Not sure what your point is here, however oil is a much more versatile product than the original computer systems that were used for census data. Regardless, if it was common practice to sell products to countries at war with our allies than correct me, because it strikes me as suspect. If I were a foreign country and knew about this, I'd be extremely angry with the US, and only hope they would take action against the companies doing so. Standard Oil was to big to be punished, sound familiar?

3.) Mitsubishi isn't an American company selling to our enemies, they are a Japanese company. Apples to oranges.

2, 4, etc.) Whatever these numbers are pertaining to, they are again American companies. The mafia has always had a stake in just about everything. The still run the waterfront's all along the East Coast. I know this first hand; my company has had many problems since opening a terminal in Jacksonville, FL. WTF was your point with this?

Again, I made a comparison of insider information from the article that ChunkyMonster posted about Nancy Pelosi and John Boehner to what was probably happening back then. There is all kinds of historical books written about the very subject revolving around business ties during that of WW2. The Germans put up many fake businesses to trade with foreign entities to hide where the sales were going to, most of the sellers knew damn well where their products were going to Germany. Now, if there is no limit to the amount of contact the businesses have with our legislators, then who's to say similar instances didn't happen back then? Actually the only way you made it in to office was being a successful person in business or being a rich land owner; this was the status quo since the beginning of our country - Still is in a lot of ways (or being born into a political family). This had nothing to do with "criminalizing American businesses" I merely was pointing out the insider information was available back then and since our government was in bed with business owners back then, who's to say that part of the reason we didn't enter the war wasn't personal profit?

I am speculating outright, and I'm not trying to hide that. I'm not saying it is what happened, but I didn't know that speculating on the amount of greed within human nature was somehow out of the question.

The rest of what you wrote doesn't even apply to what I was saying, and I'll ask this same question again:
I didn't know that selling products to the enemies of our allies was free and clear of scrutiny?


This is me scrutinizing.

PS
I find what Standard Oil did (and the government connections they had) on par with how our current legislators make money off their own legislation.

Here is a link that is on par, and sited, to what I was saying: http://reformed-theology.org/html/books/wall_street/cha...
December 1, 2011 2:28:40 AM

Exceopt for those Japanese companies, and those German companies etc etc
People complain about dropping the bomb as well, but Id remind everyone, one wasnt enough

Tho its important to remind ourselves of our history, especially so we dont head down that path again, its entirely another matter to possibly create a new history, by having to also learn, times change, forgiveness is a part of life, and if we harm certain companies, where will it end?
And to what harm?
Then, 50 years from now, someone will be reminding us not to this too once again.
We werent so guilty as to slaughter innocents, and by the millions, so except for this fact, and being attacked, whether it was our allies, or our homeland, yes, there is a distinctive exception here.
We also didnt occupy any countries that attacked us, tho, learning from the past, ala WWI, we left military personnel, and a better, more ready and stronger one, in those countries, and at home.
We dont like war, but were damn good at it
December 1, 2011 2:36:22 AM

JAYDEEJOHN said:
We dont like war, but were damn good at it

One of the tenets of conservatism is a strong military. Let us not forget the insane defense spending since Ronald Raegan. Before anyone jumps down my throat too, I'm aware of the cold war and why we did, that doesn't justify the astronomical spending since then.
December 1, 2011 3:25:30 AM

Briefly put. Insider trading is NOT illegal for American legislators, or their underlings. The problem is within government. Not the private sector.
December 1, 2011 12:38:44 PM

Hitler was also named Time Magazines 'Man of the Year' ..you must realize that 'Jounralism' has never been 'objective' or without agenda of its ..William Randolph Hearst (the newspaper Billionare) went to the same country club that John D Rockafeller went to ..and they HATED each other. to the point that Hearst actively engaged trying to do everything he could with newspapers to ruin John D. Most of the time, as with even with todays lamestream newsmedia. using very little facts and info , and WHOLE lot of opinion and SPECULATION. Hearst's mistress wrote a book about him. you should read it. While money does not hurt it not the end of all..Harry Truman , lived in the same house after he was president that he lived before he VP and the President. There are many examples in American history of people coming from poverty or meager means and going on to become good leaders. Abe Lincoln, Andrew Jackson, here in FL , Marco Rubio is the son Cuban immigrants, now Senator Marco Rubio. this is a key factor of America ..'opputunity' .

1) Hitsorical outlook changes over time and as info garnered. soo you would chastize IBM for doing business with someone that Time Magazine named Man of the year ? kids across America and Europe , donated their pennies to give charity and food to starving German kids after WWI ...Norway took in the largest number of German war orphans , American companies also donated to these charities ..did they know that those kids would grow up to become Nazi's ?

2) Generally the terms of doing business with 'enemies of our allies' is dictated by the Laws and Treaties of the respecting countries involved. also depends on what it is; for example base cotton. can be sold, this can then be turned into uniformed for soldiers, OR turn into medical gauze or bandages for wounds. do you restrict medical supplies being sold ? often times these issues are unkown to Gov'ts until afer the fact. Rubber can used to make turnicates or tires ? it is a gray area and often depends on things like legal terms interpritation ..for a more mdern example ..I remember buying a SCSI RAID from Adaptec prolly more than a decade ago (yes it was years before 9/11..when I downloaded the driver I had to swear that I would not be distributing this to Certain countries Afghanistan, Iran , and some others the list. I do not if this was an Adaptec company policy or based on Legislation from congress, and not even sure why.
2) even if Standard Oil was selling ..were they breaking any laws ? I find they 'evidence' to be very circumstantial and speculative at best, imho.
3) Where do you think Mitsubishi bought it's raw materials from? Admiral 'Bull' Halsey.when he was a young officer was the 'Battleship Tour' in which an American fleet sailed around the world to various ports in kind diplomatic show of force. no one was at war at this point. but one of the places he went to was Tokyo Japan. he saw the rise of fascism taking place there first hand. upon returning to the port of San Diego, he saw ships being loaded with both raw mats , and junk metals scraps, loaded onto ships bound for Japan. his son remembers the comments he made 'by god thats going to come back to us in bombs and torpedos' ..and while he was correct in predictions years before it happend ..even into 1940 Newspapers were saying we are not going to war. the US will remain as we had already been 'over there' and were not oign back. the newspapers were wrong.

4) if they control waterfronts all along the East Coast ..why do specify Jacksonville, FL ?

5) 'insider info' has always been an issue ..hell this very website could be considerd 'insider info' ..if you worked with Edison or Tesla and could see the future of electricy you had more insider info long before any farm in Iowa had that same info. the whole aspect of Business and Government relations ..be it from either side is based on insider info. if you knew Google was going to IPO ..is that insder info ? and is insider info any guarantee of profit ? there are countless examples of fortunes won and lost. hmm Solyndra comes to mind ..many people on the inside there ..but maybe someone profited somewhere off that inside info; but looks like most everyone lost on that one.
5) as to who is to say whether the reason we went to war wasn't personal profit ? you assume that war is profitable ..this pure liberal bs ..Business likes certainty and predictability ..war is the opposite of that. not only does war destroy your inventory , it destroy your workforce, your sales force and the human beings that creat and improve your products. Business does not like war ..even weapons makers would prefer to play on the testing ground than to actually have their products used on the battlefield , cause on the battlefield those products might fail. many examples of this ..

Speculate on the amount of human greed all you want. I just dont understand why you think American companies are the sole source of human greed. bear in mind that most American also contribute a great deal of their 'profits' to charities and worthy causes. personally I get a chuckle out of watching liberals with their Ipads and iPhones idol and worship Jobs..and they have no idea that when Jobs first came back to Apple, the FIRST thing he did was cut ALL charitable donations that the company made, and the ENTIRE time he head of Apple , they made ZERO , not 1 dollar of donations.. the new CEO of Apple the first thing he did was re-instate the company matching funds from employee donation to charities ..
but I would agree with you there is a problem in DC ..it always amazes to listen to the libral left as they yell and scream against what the Gov't is doing ..and then demand that we the people give more money to that same Gov't ..
December 1, 2011 6:57:09 PM

Wow man, I don't know how to be more specific with what I'm telling you, but here goes the numbers game... again.

1.) I don't know why you are going back to IBM. My problem is that Rockefeller still sold oil for the first three years of the war to Germany, not just before hand.

2.) You are right that business laws are dictated by the legislator, but moral decisions are based on the individual. When greed trumps morality, everyone loses.

3.) There are mountains of "circumstantial" evidence because that's all that's left. There was no heavy investigative journalism at this time and as you stated newspapers were mouth pieces for the views and values of their owners.

4.) Because this is an annecdote; first hand experience in dealing with very corrupt labor, and I live in LA which is home to the ILWU and was born in Detroit where I worked first hand with the UAW. It's an example, that's why I used Jacksonville, FL. The problem extends from Florida all the way up, including ports of Savannah, GA; Norfolk, VA; Wilmington, DE; Baltimore, MD; New York, NY.

Why is the location important, and why am I being challenged on this when I agreed with your last post?

5.) No, this website cannot be considered "insider information" because it does not deal with private information that would determine whether or not a person should invest in a specific company; all the data here is public.

5 again.) Your google comparison is a straw man and doesn't apply; I never worked for the company, but I knew full well when they had the intention of going public (that they came out and said they were going to release an IPO) that I should buy, but I did not and that's why I'm not a millionaire today. However, knowing that your company is going public and releasing that information to 3rd parties before a public announcement is insider trading, although the ramifications are probably a lot less than knowing about a specific technology in development that will boost company sales and telling all your congressional and personal cronies, that's a much better example.

Insider information can definitely be a guarantee of profit; there has been many, many pieces of media on this issue from news articles to books to movies based on the very subject. Please don't come at me with such naive statements like that, you know full well privileged information can be extremely profitable. Hell, MARTHA STEWART was thrown the book at for her insider trading.

Solyndra was crony-capitalism for the left as Blackwater, Lockheed-Martin, Northrup-Gurman, The Carlyle Group, (insert random military contractor), is for the right. Call it what you will. Forbes.

More of 5.) You are telling me that war is not profitable? Please show me an example, because I can show you all kinds of information on the military contractors I listed. Hell, Eric Prince (Blackwater) is a millionare now after all his contracts and charges the government HUGE fees for his mercenaries. The Carlyle Group (who has both Bush' on their payroll) had a mutli-million dollar missile program that was proven to be ineffective, yet while W was in office he was able to get the faulty program pushed through. His father was a spokesman for the Carlyle Group during this times. Conflict of interest? This doesn't even take into account Wall Street's (I am referring to all major banks, not just American banks) profiteering as they have backed every major war in history in one indirect way or another. What a joke.

Lastly, I don't think American Companies are the "sole source of human greed," and you are taking what I say hugely out of context. The charity remark is a red herring, do some research on the very topic, I've done plenty.

So I'm a Jobs' disciple now? Do you know that I'm a Windows administrator by day?

You make a lot of long winded assumptions about what I've said and who I am without knowing anything. I'm done addressing your numbers because you are not retorting to what I'm saying, you're retorting to what you want to see. I did this, KNOWINGLY, to Knarl in the climategate thread; you seem to not have a clue you are doing it to me.

I've been very specific with what I've said here. I never said what I was saying in this thread was FACT, I came flat out and said I was speculating. However, there is many, many cases of businesses influence over politicians to get what they want. 2 shining (historical) examples of that was, speaking of Hearst, 1937 - "Marijuana tax Act" (also pushed through with the pressure of the textile industry, i.e. paper) or 1913 - "Federal Reserve Act;" a handful of people creating a "corporation" to manage the money of the US. I bet you when this happened Andrew Jackson was rolling in his grave, and I'm not putting down fractional reserve banking to clarify.

Again, the writing is on the wall, you just have to step back and read it, which seems a difficult task considering how you've butchered what I've said numerous times now.

Oldmangamer_73 said:
Briefly put. Insider trading is NOT illegal for American legislators, or their underlings. The problem is within government. Not the private sector.

I understand that and I agree with you, however the channels that are setup between legislators and business people needs to be changed. This is why I'm for the new amendment that Ted Deutch introduced to the House. I think once we take the money out of elections, this whole preferential treatment to huge donors will go away, whether those donors are corporate interests or labor interests.
December 1, 2011 10:32:06 PM

"Solyndra was crony-capitalism for the left as Blackwater, Lockheed-Martin, Northrup-Gurman, The Carlyle Group, (insert random military contractor), is for the right. Call it what you will."

One huge difference in the companies you have listed. Other than Solyndra, the American people actually received a product or service for the money we paid to those other companies.

Thank you for pointing out such a great distinction between the different types of cronyism Lockdown. Cheers!
December 1, 2011 11:30:03 PM

Oldmangamer_73 said:
"Solyndra was crony-capitalism for the left as Blackwater, Lockheed-Martin, Northrup-Gurman, The Carlyle Group, (insert random military contractor), is for the right. Call it what you will."

One huge difference in the companies you have listed. Other than Solyndra, the American people actually received a product or service for the money we paid to those other companies.

Thank you for pointing out such a great distinction between the different types of cronyism Lockdown. Cheers!


If you were trying to make that sting, it didn't. Mostly because I agree with you, again. There is a huge distinction, but neither side is right on the issue and to say we are getting our money's worth out of the defense contracts is also quite bogus.

Other than the perceptual difference, I agree again, except when you talk about the Carlyle Group (more info here), floating tanks or fake missile defense systems.
December 2, 2011 1:08:36 AM

So, once again, TY Mr B.O., president.
While others moved the economy ahead, once again, he failed us, cronyism or not
December 2, 2011 2:37:18 AM

lol Lockdown reminds me of a tweet I saw on the McLaughlin Group webiste ; the guy had a picture of Frederick Douglas for his icon and tweets "I dont understand why MSNBC allows Buchanon and Coulter to spiew their right wing views" ..I would bet that everyone here except lockdown gets the irony of that statement. hehe naw , he prolly gets it ..just does not want to hear it.

Lockdown is well indoctrinated with buzz words and talking points 'straw man' , 'red herring' ..he has shown ZERO evidence his continous claim about Standard Oil selling to the Germany for 3 after 'the war' ..I understand his concern about selling things to Enemies of our Allies ..many companies STOPPed doing business with germany LONG before they even start bombing anyone ..particularly some Spanish companies after Gurneka . This is and always has been a gray area and a judgment call ..which is easier to judge with hindsight. it is always easier to monday morning QB, than make the play call on the field as it is happening

2) please define when greed trumps morality ..I would define that as ANY Hollywood Actor who charges Millions of Dollars and puts out yet another formulaic gleeming exploding tird of product placement, media standard indoctrination of ignorance, and glorification of mediocrity completely lacking in any intellectual or moral value. or in laymans terms your avg summer blockbuster.

4) I was not challenging you was simply curious as to ..out of ALL the possible choices why you chose that particular one ..
4A) Insider Info could be stretched to depend on just how inside and how informed you are ..the reason I used the site as an example .is because you could get info , that say someone with no Internet access could not normally get ..not a straw man ..a gray area subject to debate and clearer definitions. also insider info is NOT a guarantee of profit ..the company still has the risk of going bust later ..if you had Stock in Lehman Brothers ..depending on when you sold..you prolly lost money. NO stock and NO Company has a guarantee of profit forever. even monopolies ..even newspaper Billionares, there is still a risk losing everything.
5) War is not profitable in general , it is in fact VERY Risky ..and particularly costly when you lose, after the Revolutionary War we were broke and took a few years to build up some cash..and even then we just got lucky on the Louisana Purchase..the Civil War ..you gonna tell me the South was in Profitable in 1867 ..Germany after WWI ..Hitler was making quite the profit at the start of the war, but around 1945 , I wouldnt want to be living in Germany at that time.. heck even in modern times , was Korea , Vietnam Profitable ? did some companies make some money making weapons and bombs yes ..did some companies LOSE there contracts and go out of business when there products did not perform on the battlefield hell yes ..
I love that you named Bush ..did you know that Bush Sr was a Pilot in The War ..flew 52 missions , was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross (2nd highest medal you can get) ..did you know that he was shot down in the Pacific , his co-pilot and navigator were never found , rumor was that they washed up on island that the local tribal cheiftan ate their livers as delicassy. Bush Sr got lucky and was picked up by a submarine..yeah I would hazard to geuss he believes in a stronger military ..if you REALLY want a good insight into war ..there a great book by Andrew Carroll , called 'War Letters' it is a collection of letter written by the soldiers and nurses who were there ...

5) I stopped clicking your links at the article entitled 'the Stinginess of the Rich' ..yeah thats gonna be a fair and balanced look at things ..I could link you a chart showing that the Catholic Church has the lowest Amount of 'Administrative Costs' and highest percent of money that ACTUALLY goes to help the poor people. Intersting thought that only showed the declined in charitable donations from the rich from 2008 ..gee when the big market crash and those evil rich people jsut lost half or more of their entore life savings ..I think you gotta expect a drop in donations at that point. remember , some Occupy Wall genius who loses half $100 lost $50 or about a days pay.. a rich person with a $2million dollar house just lost $1million on that same transaction. not exaclty a days pay ..prolly 40 years worth of working.

I made NO assumptions about you ..I merely pointed you in the direction of more and different info on the similar subjects ..I never said you were a Jobs Disciple ..I merely used Jobs as an example of 'greedy' who gets a free pass. while you continuously hammer at the 'talking points' of Defense Contractors being greedy and seeking profit. Jobs could be another example of greedy seeking profit. But I rarely hear or read of him being framed in that way. Crony-Capitalism is the reason we get to vote every few and the MAIN reason why have the 2nd Amendment. MY whole point is that the problem does not exist Solely from American Companies or Defense Contractors ..you wanna talk aobut cronyism ..go ahead and try to get money to make an independant film in Hollywood.

I would use brevity as the soul of wit , but text is too easily misinturpreted, particularly in tones voice ..I aplogize if this was case , and I agree with you on Andrew Jackson prolly still rolling in his grave. I mean what do you think HE would think of the defecit and the Nat'l Debt ? .. just bear in mind that when seeking to tell the truth , it may not always BE what you thought it would be. so ur WinAdmin ..I think I know now why picked Jax ..double plus good sir, double plus good. I bid you good day. and please I am not sure how I have 'butchered what you said' but I apologize for any misunderstanding ..nor do I care anymore..I merely tried to add info. which could be bad bad thing I suppose.
December 2, 2011 11:57:10 AM

l0ckd0wn said:
If you were trying to make that sting, it didn't. Mostly because I agree with you, again. There is a huge distinction, but neither side is right on the issue and to say we are getting our money's worth out of the defense contracts is also quite bogus.

Other than the perceptual difference, I agree again, except when you talk about the Carlyle Group (more info here), floating tanks or fake missile defense systems.



Not quite seeing your point. So, if our military requires aircraft and bombs, we should have bought them from a British corporation, or Russian one even? If we need to erect a field hospital in the desert we should not engage Halliburton we should use, what, a French corporation?

If our government wants F-22 Raptors they are not going buy them from Cessna.
December 5, 2011 9:42:00 PM

1.) Red Herring, Straw Man and other logical fallacies are failings of a debater. You highlight this inexplicably over and over again.

2.) Wow, this has nothing to do with what I said. Not surprising. See #1.
And to address your question of definition; human nature dictates aspects of our lives and seeking the means to secure one's position and ensure it's survival trumps acting for the greater good. Richard Branson talks very negatively about this trend in business on the Colbert Report. Richard Branson is owner of Virgin and a self made billionaire.

4A.) So now you change the scope in an attempt to legitimize your response. "People without the internet" was never mentioned, and you are just reaching now because you really don't know what insider information is or are making an attempt to suddenly change it's definition. If internet was a "god given right" or "unalienable right" like access to water, electricity or work I'd agree, but it's considered a luxury item at this point, no matter how you dice it up. The FCC is going to lengths to make it a norm but we are still a long way off from having unified access. In fact the rural debate for mail is the same argument for internet, but the internet hasn't shown that it is 100% essential for function like rural mail.

5.) The article focused on being proportionate to income, had you read the article you would know that. The article is Mother Jones, notorious for factual information and lot's of documentation, must be liberal subterfuge.

6 or something.) The first part of this response makes all kinds of references and assumptions ("l0ckd0wn has been indoctrinated..."), again, you're trying to draw attention away from what really matters because you have not said anything substantial and haven't provided any citation for your pointless responses.

Talking points? You haven't even addressed anything I said, you just run in circles, try again.

Hollywood? It's full of crony-capitalists like you say, no argument there, but then this has nothing to do with what I was talking about, again with a straw man, or more specifically more logical fallacies. Let us not forget that Hollywood was one of those industries that created it's self over the last 100 years, and I'm referring to the studios starting out as independent companies highlighting every conservative's favorite economic theory; capitalism. Now it's a who-you-know industry, and one of the reasons we get so much recycled garbage, lack of technological embrace and bad business plans for the future. The internet is doing a great job of forcing the conversation and pushing towards a better business plan for the whole industry, although the RIAA and MPAA are doing a great job of preventing progress and lobbying for draconian laws rather than legislative progress on an issue heavily dependent upon the internet. However if those lobby groups get their way the internet and the way we access it could greatly impede the transmission of information. I'm a firm believer in the EFF.

More information is't a bad thing; more wrong information doesn't help anyone.

Andrew Jackson would wonder why corporations control our money supply; why we lend it to banks at .01% interest and they lend it back to us at .03% interest, essentially paying 97c for every dollar they borrow.

Andrew Jackson would wonder why we are paying "military contractors" to do the unethical work that our government is not allowed to do. I'd think he'd be appalled by the lack of transparency in all aspects of politics (and government) and would question the affinity that politicians have to their donors instead of their constituents. Again, the writing is on the wall.

Oldmangamer_73 said:
American people actually received a product or service for the money we paid to those other companies.


Oldmangamer_73 said:
Not quite seeing your point.


l0ckd0wn said:
Other than the perceptual difference, I agree again, except when you talk about the Carlyle Group (more info here), floating tanks or fake missile defense systems.


The "floating tank" project and the "Star Wars Missile Defense" project both produced no results, were hugely over budget and both were pet projects that made specific politicians money, thus why the programs were continued. Am I being specific enough?
December 6, 2011 12:58:35 AM

As per Hollywood, its who you know, but unless youre powerful, its who you vote for even moreso
December 6, 2011 6:20:33 PM

pointless ..after watching Reynod delete posts , and delete / censor my own posts ..it is pointless to 'debate' ..talk about 'fail debate' , lol.

"freedom of speech is a wonderful thing; as long as nobody's listening"

--Frank Miller , Dark Knight Returns
December 6, 2011 9:20:23 PM

There are no deleted posts here.

There is no freedom of speech here anyway ... there is a ToU for the site.

Follow the rules or go elsewhere.
December 6, 2011 11:26:11 PM

Reynod said:
There are no deleted posts here.

There is no freedom of speech here anyway ... there is a ToU for the site.

Follow the rules or go elsewhere.



Yes , there are deleted posts , in another thread , I responded to someone's single word post of 'pathetic' , that post of a single word is gone ..then I merely pointed to the OP's use of certain language and asked if it was apropiate to the debate ; my ENTIRE post was deleted and then the topic closed (topic was closed by Reynod, though I do not know who deleted my post of a simple question). I do follow the rules. others do not. I know what I read , what I typed , and what was cut out. no rules were broken , except of course for 'unwritten' ones of do not point to others hypocracy. Double plus good sir, double plus good. fear not though, my "pathetic" attempts at looking at both sides of issues like "Sodomizing the middle class" shall be going elsewhere.
December 6, 2011 11:44:26 PM

In that other thread the poster must have deleted his own post, otherwise there would be a hidden post there for mods to see ... there is not. I say again " the poster must have deleted his own post" ... not me.

I deleted other posts that were insulting or had curse words in them.

I closed thread at that point.

Thanks.

December 7, 2011 2:39:41 AM

ltrazaklt said:
pointless ..after watching Reynod delete posts , and delete / censor my own posts ..it is pointless to 'debate' ..talk about 'fail debate' , lol.

"freedom of speech is a wonderful thing; as long as nobody's listening"

--Frank Miller , Dark Knight Returns


10-4 Batman...

I'm not sure what you are so upset about considering that he didn't touch anything you said in here...

This reminds me of...



I want to say #1... Could be wrong, I've been wrong before. Like on climate change being proven to be a hoax and totally unreal...
December 7, 2011 5:42:16 AM

your link to tiny pic does not work ....WinAdmin
!