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Disappointment on Dual board review ;-)

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Anonymous
a b V Motherboard
February 1, 2001 5:40:16 PM

Dear THG,

I must said that I'm somewhat disappointed with the latest review on Dual Board.

Let me explain this.
On Windows and Linux, SMP were introduce later on.
Therefore not all application can support SMP.
Only several handful application can run SMP perfectly.
I saw THG already inform this to their reader. Kudos to THG

BUT... you failed to inform your reader there were an OS that can use SMP
to all apps. I already e-mail THG more than 3 times in the past dual motherboard
article about this OS.... I never receive a reply.... I wonder if you read e-mail from readers.

Let me introduce BeOS made by Be Inc (http://free.be.com),
and distribute by Gobe (http://www.gobe.com) in US, Kosh in Europe,
and Hitachi in Asia.

All native BeOS application are threaded, therefore can use more than 1 processor.
Even the apps not Studio Max, Cinema 4D kind of apps.

For example a word processor called Gobe Productive in BeOS can use
more than 1 processor just for doing 1 page of word processing.
(It use 2 processor to handle 1 page, so 2 processor do help here)

Be Mail, the native Mail reader spawn 3 thread just for writing an e-mail.
(That's mean can use 3 processor).



PS: I enjoyed reading about SMP board, and urge THG get more SMP board to review.

PPS: I enjoyed reading SMP board because I use BeOS & dual processor.

---------------
SMP = Symmetric Multi Processing -- 2 processor and more
BeOS were priced less than US$ 80 and can use up to 8 processor.

Need more information with BeOS?
BeNews - http://www.benews.com
BeTips - http://www.betips.net

Or join beusertalk@be.com.
---------------

Thanks for THG boards. I feel heard already ;) 



Get BeOS (http://free.be.com)
The Best ever Operating System
February 1, 2001 6:01:23 PM

I have a few questions.

1) Can you actually run ANY Windows software on BeOS? Could I install it onto my dual P2-400 and drop in my Quake1 CD and play to my heart's content?

2) Does BeOS actually have driver support for things like my sound card, my video card, my modem, etc., etc.?

3) Even if I write and compile software as single-threaded does BeOS somehow translate it into a multi-threaded application?

4) If yes for question 3, then how does it synchronize the threads?

- Sanity is purely based on point-of-view.
Anonymous
a b V Motherboard
February 1, 2001 6:25:08 PM

I have a few questions.
>1) Can you actually run ANY Windows software on BeOS?
>Could I install it onto my dual P2-400 and drop in my
>Quake1 CD and play to my heart's content?

I have the same question for you.
Can you run BeOS apps in Windows?
Can you run Linux apps in Windows?
If you can't run Linux apps in Windows, does it mean Linux suck?
Just because it's not MS doesn't mean it's suck.
Just because Netscape were not made by MS doesn't mean it's not good.
Please stop washing our kid head with Slogan: 'Any thing is not MS is not standard'
MS != standard.

>2) Does BeOS actually have driver support for things
>like my sound card, my video card, my modem, etc.,
>etc.?

I don't know, cause I don't know your hardware.
But you can download BeOS freely from http://free.be.com
and try it your self.

>3) Even if I write and compile software as
>single-threaded does BeOS somehow translate
>it into a multi-threaded application?

If the apps were *NATIVE* and *USE* BeOS API
(BApps, BWindow, etc). Then it will be multi-threaded.
You don't need to care/take care about the thread things.
It were done automagically.

If the apps were terminal apps (Text only).
It can be single thread or multi thread depending
on what you wrote.

>4) If yes for question 3, then how does it synchronize the threads?

There were 2 kind of SMP threads in BeOS you should know.
* You shouldn't care about synchronizing threads with
the one that were made automagically in BeOS API.
(Although on some lower level BeOS C API you should do care)
* You should take care the one that you spawn it your self
(Just like in Windows, Linux, etc).


Get BeOS (http://free.be.com)
The Best ever Operating System
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February 1, 2001 6:51:17 PM

"Can you run BeOS apps in Windows?
Can you run Linux apps in Windows?"

Not to my knowledge. In fact even going from one brand of Linux to another or one brand of Unix to another often requires recompiling code, from what I've heard. However I myself haven't experienced such things because I don't have any needs that Linux nor Unix meet.

"If you can't run Linux apps in Windows, does it mean Linux suck?
Just because it's not MS doesn't mean it's suck.
Just because Netscape were not made by MS doesn't mean it's not good.
Please stop washing our kid head with Slogan: 'Any thing is not MS is not standard'
MS != standard."

Geeze you're a touchy one. I didn't say anything of the kind, thank you very much. If you want any one to take you seriously then you might want to consider not over-reacting so much and jumping on me for asking a perfectly reasonable question.

My point is that at home I have a LOT of MS Windows software. So why would I want to switch to another OS and lose my ability to use all of that software? Just because that OS is free? So is Linuz, but you don't see me switching to that.

It has nothing to do with liking Microsoft. Personally, I think they're pains in the butt. I should know because I've used their products and developed for their products for just about as long as their products have existed.

But the MAJORITY of software developers release their products ONLY for Microsoft OSs. So if BeOS can't run Windows software, even in an emulation mode, then really what IS the point? That's it's free? Is it worth it if you can't use any good software on it?

So why would I want the hassle of switching to something that I'd have no software support for? If BeOS could run Windows software, then it would be interesting to try. But if it won't, then just how many people really would want to switch?

"I don't know, cause I don't know your hardware.
But you can download BeOS freely from http://free.be.com
and try it your self."

Thank you, but no. Besides the fact that I wouldn't be able to use any of my software, there is also the fact that the last thing I want to deal with is taking a perfectly stable computer and make it unstable by messing around with a new OS and a lack of driver support.

"If the apps were *NATIVE* and *USE* BeOS API
(BApps, BWindow, etc). Then it will be multi-threaded.
You don't need to care/take care about the thread things.
It were done automagically."

Umm ... forgive me for not seeing how that makes any sense. As a software engineer who has intentionally left a lot of my code as single-threaded because there was nothing to gain by making it multi-threaded other than multiple processor support, and sometimes even slowing the software down because of synchronization issues, how can BeOS just magically make my software synchronized and multi-threaded? And what could I do if I didn't WANT it to multi-threaded?

"If the apps were terminal apps (Text only).
It can be single thread or multi thread depending
on what you wrote."

Dear flirking bloody demons of Incondor! Text-based programs?! I stopped writing those a decade ago! And I wouldn't want ANY user running my software to have to deal with text-based programs if I could EVER help it.

"There were 2 kind of SMP threads in BeOS you should know.
* You shouldn't care about synchronizing threads with
the one that were made automagically in BeOS API.
(Although on some lower level BeOS C API you should do care)
* You should take care the one that you spawn it your self
(Just like in Windows, Linux, etc)."

So in other words, the API is multi-threaded. But the program routines themselves are still all in one thread, unless you actually write your software to be specifically multi-threaded.

In which case it really means that there's no advantage to using BeOS over anything else because in order to make your processor-intensive programs actually process along multiple threads, you still have to do all of the work yourself just like you have to do in ANY other OS.

So what's the point?

I mean it sounds like an interesting idea on one hand. But it sounds like from a software engineering aspect it'd make my job even harder, or at the very least just as difficult. And it would make my programs even less efficient unless I were to actually be running them on multiple processors.

Forgive me for not seeing any advantages whatsoever to programming or using BeOS.

Maybe it makes sense for people with multiple processors. But really, how many people actually have multiple processors?

And if I can't run the software that I need on it, what point is there to using it?

I can EASILY understand why THG doesn't take this OS very seriously. Who would?

- Sanity is purely based on point-of-view.
February 1, 2001 7:28:04 PM

Hey, if BeOS had better hardware support and more software written for it, I would give it a try.

Let's face it, it's not how good an OS is, it's how much HW/SW support there is for it. The greatest OS in the world doesn't do much for you if it only supports minimal hardware and there's no software to run on it.

That explains the existence of Microsoft and Windows. :-)

"There's no such thing as gravity, the Earth just sucks"
February 1, 2001 7:42:06 PM

Exactly. What good is a free OS if it doesn't support your hardware and you can't run the software that you need on it?

Plus, as a Windows GUI programming expert, is there any advantages for me to write my code in BeOS? Does it even have anything similar to Visual BASIC?

(Not that I don't use Visual C++ or Visual FORTRAN either, but the concept of a 'visual' BASIC language is as far as I know a solidly Windows concept that is at best very poorly executed in HTML.)

- Sanity is purely based on point-of-view.
Anonymous
a b V Motherboard
February 2, 2001 9:12:32 AM

>However I myself haven't experienced such things because
>I don't have any needs that Linux nor Unix meet.

This is not about you having a need for some OS.

Consider this.
You already have a car, house, wife, etc.
But a friend of your forcing to try the new BMW.
The BMW cost less than your car, but better.
You said to him that you don't have the need for some car.
It's true, but once you tried it, it might change your way of thinking.
That there were another beautifull OS out there, that MS
trying to hide. This is not about having a need for something.

>Geeze you're a touchy one. I didn't say anything of the kind,
>thank you very much. If you want any one to take you seriously
>then you might want to consider not over-reacting so much and
>jumping on me for asking a perfectly reasonable question.

Sory.
I feel offended with the way you asked the Quake I things.
(Although Quake I, Quake II, Quake III run on BeOS -- yes we do have
binaries for it).

>My point is that at home I have a LOT of MS Windows software.
>So why would I want to switch to another OS and lose my ability
>to use all of that software?

That's the problem for most BeOS newbe.
They don't want to lose their investment.
But after a while some stay, some dual boot, some gone.

>Just because that OS is free? So is Linuz,

BeOS is not free.
The free download is not as fully loaded as the commercial one.

>but you don't see me switching to that.

I don't like Linux for desktop either.
Try that, hate that. Too hard for me.

>But the MAJORITY of software developers release their products ONLY for Microsoft OSs.
>So if BeOS can't run Windows software, even in an emulation mode, then really what IS the
>point? That's it's free? Is it worth it if you can't use any good software on it?

Every one millage may vary.
Some would love it, some will have another consideration.

>So why would I want the hassle of switching to
>something that I'd have no software support for?

Advanture.
Knowladge.
Ever heard the art of Zen??
You learn more about Windows by using other OS such as Linux, BeOS or OS/2.
If you only use Windows, your knowladge were limited to Windows.
You need to get out and see other OS archivement in order to know how good
is the OS that you used.

Especially you were software developer.
You should do try competitor product.
Or competitor product of the OS that you support.

>Thank you, but no. Besides the fact that I wouldn't be able to use any of my software,
>there is also the fact that the last thing I want to deal with is taking a perfectly stable
>computer and make it unstable by messing around with a new OS and a lack of driver support.

The free version, install under Windows.
You don't need to make partition, etc.
It were just like a windows apps.
If you don't like it, you can click un install.
It delete the directory, and all regestry key.

The commercial version.
install in seperate partition.
Run faster.

>Umm ... forgive me for not seeing how that makes any sense. As a software engineer
>who has intentionally left a lot of my code as single-threaded because there was
>nothing to gain by making it multi-threaded other than multiple processor support,
>and sometimes even slowing the software down because of synchronization issues,
>how can BeOS just magically make my software synchronized and multi-threaded?
>And what could I do if I didn't WANT it to multi-threaded?

Well, you don't quite right here.
In BeOS all apps were *VERY* responsive thank's to multi-threaded.
I could burn CD, run 8 videos, 10 MP3 at the same time on Single P-III 450,
and my system still responsive.

I learned that by multi-threading an apps it make the apps & system very
responsive, although it's on single processor. When I'm on MS Win land,
I see this idea as invalid. But once I'm in BeOS land, my vision changed.

I see from your profile that you were software developer.
I'm only halfway there ;) , and my native language is not english.
So maybe some word I said doesn't have the quality of showing my point.

>So in other words, the API is multi-threaded. But the program routines themselves
>are still all in one thread, unless you actually write your software to be specifically
>multi-threaded.

yes.

>In which case it really means that there's no advantage to using BeOS over
>anything else because in order to make your processor-intensive programs
>actually process along multiple threads, you still have to do all of the work
>yourself just like you have to do in ANY other OS.

It's easier to do compare to other OS.
Because BeOS were natively SMP OS.

Well Mr. Slvr_phoenix,
I believe you can't judge one OS just by looking into it.
If you really interested, you should try it.
This is hard to tell with word. Seeing is believing.

>So what's the point?
>I mean it sounds like an interesting idea on one hand. But it sounds like from a
>software engineering aspect it'd make my job even harder, or at the very
>least just as difficult. And it would make my programs even less efficient
>unless I were to actually be running them on multiple processors.
>Forgive me for not seeing any advantages whatsoever to programming or using BeOS.
>Maybe it makes sense for people with multiple processors. But really, how many people
>actually have multiple processors?
>And if I can't run the software that I need on it, what point is there to using it?

Maybe BeOS is not for you.
But as reviewer site, THG should know about it.

>I can EASILY understand why THG doesn't take this OS very seriously. Who would?

I CAN'T agree you with this.
This conclusion is pointless.
And show *VERY* MS minded of you.
Are you bob (Bob = MS dog)?

THG is review site. It has to take every OS seriously even thought he won't using it.
Why? Because in order to give judgement to one problem, he has to see the whole
truth.

I mean he has to know about OS/2, BeOS, Linux, Windows to know how good or
bad Windows is.

Even the OS only good but have no software, THG as good reviewer should know about it.
I feel you conclosion is too Bob....

Get BeOS (http://free.be.com)
The Best ever Operating System
Anonymous
a b V Motherboard
February 2, 2001 9:14:26 AM

>Hey, if BeOS had better hardware support and more software written for it,
>I would give it a try.Let's face it, it's not how good an OS is, it's how much
>HW/SW support there is for it.

That's the problem I hate with BeOS.
In Windows land all hardware is the one who made driver.
In alternative OS, the OS manufacture is the one who made the driver.
This make the alternative OS manufacture has to have more enginer just to do the driver.
And lossing the focus on OS.
And worse, some hardwre manufacture will refuse to make a driver for alt-os,
and also refuse to give some information to make the hardware.

This is a clasic Catch 22 - chicken & egg problem.

>The greatest OS in the world doesn't do much for you if it only
>supports minimal hardware and there's no software to run on it.

I already used BeOS since R4 come out. Almost 2 years.
Dual boot with Windows for the first 5 months.
After that using BeOS singly on my computer.
I do web site, browsing, e-mail, word processing, spread sheet, game.
And I don't feel no software to run.
*BUT* your millage may vary.
BeOS might not be for you.
BeOS only interest people with raw potential it have,
without (a lot) of real program that use the potential.
-- (yes, we do have some software on BeOS, much more than MacOS X have) --

>That explains the existence of Microsoft and Windows. :-)
You mean: That explains the existence of Microsoft and Windows monopoly ;-)

Get BeOS (http://free.be.com)
The Best ever Operating System
Anonymous
a b V Motherboard
February 2, 2001 9:17:43 AM

>Exactly. What good is a free OS if

BeOS is not free.
You can download the free version,
but it's a commercial OS.

>it doesn't support your hardware and you can't
>run the software that you need on it?

You can dual boot into BeOS to get used to it,
then start investing knowladge, software & hardware
for future BeOS computing. After some time
you might feel you want to boot more to BeOS.

>Plus, as a Windows GUI programming expert,
>is there any advantages for me to write my code in BeOS?
>Does it even have anything similar to Visual BASIC?

Yes, but it's not as mature as VB.

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The Best ever Operating System
!