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Lag-less Gameplay?

Last response: in Video Games
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May 12, 2011 4:04:26 AM

Has anyone heard of the new technology being developed?
My friend who's a lawyer specializing in U.S. Patents currently has two former Nvida employees and supposedly they've created a new way to game with absolutely 0% lag and is expected to be tested and showcased to ISP's and to see if they'll use it. If they do I expect them to incorporate this to a gamer package. This would be wonderful because I personally do not enjoy teleporting across a map due to a single person with a bad connection.
My question is whether or not have any of you heard of such news? I'm talking about modding your comp or paying 80/month for high mbps connection but a more easier way from changing it from the source, the internet provider.

More about : lag gameplay

May 12, 2011 7:40:44 AM

I call bogus. The only way to eliminate lag completely is a) host the game in your living room, or b) increase the speed of light in a wire.
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May 12, 2011 12:20:06 PM

I don't see this happening or being true. It always takes time to get from point A to point B. Even if the time is minimal, it won't be zero... unless they've come up with a transporter. ;) 
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May 12, 2011 2:02:05 PM

I doubt they've come up with hardware improvementes, I believe they just came up with a solution to prevent packet loss/delays. you will still have 200ms ping, but it will be a stable connection that is reliable in its information transmission with no interruptions. So essentially, if you can guarantee that the ping is a constant 200ms and nothing else impedes the transmission then you won't see lag, 1/5 of a second is very hard to discern for a human being.

that being said, even if they do patent it, doesn't mean ISPs will jump to the idea. If it requires expensive upgrades to infrastructure to provide a service package that ISPs can only charge about $20 more every month over regular cable service, they just won't do it.

RE: Hawkeye22 & Herr_Koos
You guys perceive lag as jitters in game play, yet there's a myriad of things that could actually be causing the lag, not only the speed of electrons in a wire or light in optic cable.
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May 12, 2011 2:22:13 PM

@antizig
they didn't mention jitters in gameplay. what they stated is that a signal traveling from your house, to the server, to the other player will always take time. even if data traveled at the speed of light from your pc to the one right next to it there is a very slight delay. this doesn't mean that you perceive it, but it is there.

most of the trouble with lag isn't the fact that we have a ping of 200,300,400 etc.. but because our connections fluctuate and cause ping to spike sometimes. these spikes are typically when people "teleport". if we had a solid ping all the time things would be fine. though, the reason for a spike might be a drain on the connection from another pc or another program open so how do you fix this (except to prioritize & throttle back anything but the game)?

in some games code was implemented that smoothed out the jagged movements of laggy players eliminating the unfair advantage of jumping all around and being almost impossible to hit. you could still be targeted during a lag spike and attacks would hit. it only registered movements that your pc sent to the server and any delay meant that your character was just standing there. quite a nice fix.
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May 12, 2011 2:28:13 PM

AntiZig said:
I doubt they've come up with hardware improvementes, I believe they just came up with a solution to prevent packet loss/delays. you will still have 200ms ping, but it will be a stable connection that is reliable in its information transmission with no interruptions.


The capability to do that already exists; it's called Quality of Service. It is however not very useful to try and implement QoS for home internet users.
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May 12, 2011 2:58:36 PM

Herr_Koos said:
The capability to do that already exists; it's called Quality of Service. It is however not very useful to try and implement QoS for home internet users.


My home router has QoS. In fact it is prioritized for gaming and VOIP. Look for DLink routers with gamefuel (QoS). It works quite well.
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May 12, 2011 3:02:24 PM

AntiZig said:
I doubt they've come up with hardware improvementes, I believe they just came up with a solution to prevent packet loss/delays. you will still have 200ms ping, but it will be a stable connection that is reliable in its information transmission with no interruptions. So essentially, if you can guarantee that the ping is a constant 200ms and nothing else impedes the transmission then you won't see lag, 1/5 of a second is very hard to discern for a human being.

that being said, even if they do patent it, doesn't mean ISPs will jump to the idea. If it requires expensive upgrades to infrastructure to provide a service package that ISPs can only charge about $20 more every month over regular cable service, they just won't do it.

RE: Hawkeye22 & Herr_Koos
You guys perceive lag as jitters in game play, yet there's a myriad of things that could actually be causing the lag, not only the speed of electrons in a wire or light in optic cable.


Even without packet loss, there will be delay. There are millions of packets traveling the net at any time. There will always be packets ahead of yours, and they still need to travel from point A to point B. If the packet doesn't reach point B instantaneously, then you have a time differential (lag/delay) even if it's .000001, there is still a delay. It may not be percievable, but it's still there.
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May 12, 2011 3:04:59 PM

It will work to extent that your own router prioritizes what you tell it to. However, configuring QoS on your home router does not in any way influence how your ISP (or any other service provider for that matter) will treat your traffic. QoS is much more useful to a corporate customer that buys VPN's or other WAN services that come with QoS guarantees included.
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May 12, 2011 3:17:58 PM

Herr_Koos said:
It will work to extent that your own router prioritizes what you tell it to. However, configuring QoS on your home router does not in any way influence how your ISP (or any other service provider for that matter) will treat your traffic. QoS is much more useful to a corporate customer that buys VPN's or other WAN services that come with QoS guarantees included.


Very true, but QoS at home still helps. When I first set up my router, my pings dropped by almost 110ms (yes, I was on dialup at the time), but even on cable, it shaves about 30ms more or less dpending on how heavily I'm using the internet. VOIP is smooth as silk, though I'm sure most ISP's put VOIP on a higher priority also.
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May 12, 2011 5:13:11 PM

so you all described various definitions of what can cause lag in the game. yet you still trying to say that it's impossible to get rid of because of wire properties? (what load of bull is that? o.O)

Delay due to physical travel of electrons/photons in a wire is understandable, but that delay has 0.0001% responsibilty for the lag you experience during online gaming. Why? because that delay is so freaking short that it is almost irrelevant to game performance, it is other factors (see your own posts above) that contribute to lag (jitters/teleporting/etc) in-game.

So discrediting an idea of lag-less gameplay based on physical limitations of data transfer in a wire is very naive, unrealistic and just shows your failure of understanding the concept of lag-less those patent guys are trying to achieve.
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May 12, 2011 5:20:50 PM

Sorry, but no. The speed of light in a wire is about 2/3 of that in a vacuum, so that's 200000km/s. Thus, it will at least add 1ms for every 200km traveled between you and wherever the game is being hosted. And that's not accounting for the additional processing and queuing delay added by each network device the traffic has to traverse.
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May 12, 2011 6:17:42 PM

Not to mention that most games use UDP, so any lost packet isn't retransmiited, but gone.
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May 12, 2011 6:36:37 PM

lol you guys are funny.

"not accounting additional processing..." - that additional processing is the major cause of lag in online gaming, not the physical traveling of data by wire.

"most games use UDP..." - and you think fixing that wouldn't help with lag issues?

it's clear you understand where lag comes from, but your belief that it cannot be fixed is just paramount inflexible.

you still seem to be missing the point what lag-free is intended to mean in this discussion. the patent writers aren't trying to defy the laws of physics, they are trying to solve common networking problems that most often occur on software side
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May 12, 2011 6:41:43 PM

AntiZig said:
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"most games use UDP..." - and you think fixing that wouldn't help with lag issues?


When using IP, your options are TCP or UDP. TCP is going to be slower because the client/server will have to ACK every packet and lost packets will have to get retransmitted. So unless your going to redefine how IP works, you will have lag, otherwise you will have to switch out a crap load of hardware to implement this "new technology".
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May 12, 2011 6:47:17 PM

AntiZig said:
lol you guys are funny.



I'll tell you what's funny. You are arguing about a technology we're not sure even exists. Where is the proof Nvidia are working on something like this in the first place? What is it? What does it do? Point me to some hard evidence, then we can have a rational debate.
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May 12, 2011 7:14:57 PM

Herr_Koos said:
I'll tell you what's funny. You are arguing about a technology we're not sure even exists. Where is the proof Nvidia are working on something like this in the first place? What is it? What does it do? Point me to some hard evidence, then we can have a rational debate.

I can point you to the patent once it comes out, until then, what's the point of the patent?

and I am arguing that there are improvements that can be done to improve lag, you're arguing that it just can't be done period. if they manage to write some new protocol that would improve on the number of issues listed in this thread, that would be awesome.

it seems that hawkeye got the point i was trying to make.
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May 12, 2011 7:31:53 PM

I agree that there may be ways to reduce lag, but 0% lag seems dubious at best. I look forward to viewing this patent/technology.
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May 12, 2011 7:35:15 PM

AntiZig said:
I can point you to the patent once it comes out, until then, what's the point of the patent?

and I am arguing that there are improvements that can be done to improve lag, you're arguing that it just can't be done period. if they manage to write some new protocol that would improve on the number of issues listed in this thread, that would be awesome.

it seems that hawkeye got the point i was trying to make.


Just to be clear, I'm not arguing it can't be done. There are always improvements that can be made to any technology. But OP's post is speculative at best, and unless you know more about this supposed technology than you are letting on, we have nothing concrete to talk about.
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May 13, 2011 4:22:54 AM

The two people working on this are NOT associated with Nvidia in anyway but their still doing testing this. I'm not saying that their going to persuade the ISP's but if they do and once they get a patent of course it might be a new breakthrough. We can't be always be thinking that it's impossible because technology is aging so quickly that soon the lag will not be apparent to the human eye partly because maybe a limiter such as FPS caps in games to have a standard ping. There's not much information but their trying to patent their work but until then they won't give out any evidence that Herr_Koos wants. The only way to find out is in possible 6-12 months time when they publicize this.
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May 13, 2011 6:49:18 AM

Well then, back to your original question, how can we have heard of it when no one is talking about it yet?
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