MSI K7 Master S (MS-6341)

[hatimh]

Hi there,

I went into a shop and saw the MSI K7 Master S (MS-6341) so I was really surprised as I know that these are really hard to get hold of. My question is this, Is this the best board available for a 1.33 GHz Athlon Thunderbird (266), with 512 MB crucial PC2100 RAM?

I have the RAM and the CPU just decided whether to get ASUS A7M266 or the MSI K7 Master S (MS-6341).

I hope someone could advise me on this. The other main thing is when I asked to read the motherboard manual, I saw that it said it supported 200 MHz FSB, can it support 266 MHz FSB? Also on the box, it said SCSI optional and some other things, does that mean there are different versions of the MSI K7 Master S (MS-6341), do they come in the box with different optional extras in there at different prices?

OK thanks for your time and I look forward to hearing from you guys.

----------------------------------------------------

Beer is the devil's piss.

 

[SERVO]

How did you find it? I've been looking also. MSI stopped listing this MB {K7 Master-s}, I have a print out from April 10th and here's the address www.msicomputer.com/products/detail.asp?productid=166 this is not listed on there product mb page anymore it was a few weeks ago {strange!!} A couple of things to note: it has the via 686b southbridge and soundblaster onboard and so does the k7 master so I would assume they know something is wrong and my have pulled it off the market. There are plenty of places selling the K7 master but as of now I don't know if this a good choice. Also I can't find any reviews on ether MB. Does anyone have ether of these MB's, if so are they stable?

 

[IntelConvert]

I would think the best person to ask is Steve Benoit. At one time, he was one of the biggest advocates of the MSI K7Master.

 

[stable]

I've been holding out on posting this information, but as the motherboards are now in the US and people are seeing them in stores, (and due to the creation of this post) I guess I don't have much choice.

We at Stable Technologies and Co-Op Laboratories been working closely with MSI to recall the K7Master and K7Master-S motherboards after discovering a major issue.

After much to-do at the AMD trade show in Boston, we realized that something was up and began an investigation. After communicating with Taiwan and California, we realized that the factory was keeping everyone in the dark about a major change on these two motherboards.

In a nutshell, the problems arose when some person (I'll leave names out of it) at MSI realized that the specifications for unbuffered RAM are 3 clock cycles per DIMM. This being the case, having 4-DIMM slots would require the AMD761 chipset to support 12 clock Cycles.... As this is like, well impossible, this unnamed engineer decided to change the specifications on both motherboards to 2-DIMM slots. He apparently told MSI management that AMD would not certify the boards, which turns out to be false.

Here's the problem. Apparently, what this engineer forgot was these two motherboards were developed to support unbuffered and ECC-Unbuffered IN ONLY 2-DIMM slots, while Registered and ECC-Registered DIMMS were being supported in all four slots as the AMD 761 Chipset actually reserves 6 Clocks for RAM.

The translation? Registered DIMMs only use 1 clock cycle, therefore, using 4-Registered DIMMs would only require 4 clock cycles, which is what both motherboards were actually designed for in the first place. The problem was that they used incorrectly notched DIMM sockets on SOME of the pre-release boards, which caused this unnamed engineer to make this production change in the first place.

Can anyone say MAJOR FUBAR?

So, as this engineer PREDICTED, AMD wouldn't certify an incorrectly notched DIMM board with 4-slots, (understandably as if someone could actually jam 4 unbuffered DIMMs into the slots, the motherboards would crash like a MIG tailgating a prop-driven surveillance aircraft.)

So..... If AMD won't certify an incorrectly configured board, what should we do? After all, without this certification, AMD wouldn’t give MSI production chipsets for the motherboards, so what should be done? Fix the problem by changing two of the DIMM slots to only accept Registered DIMMs and the other two to accept either unbuffered or registered? Nope! You guessed it; they cut the DIMM slots from four to two.

Since discovering this, we've been talking to the factory in Taiwan as well as the V.P. here in the U.S. We've also been chatting with the AMD certification team, to explain what happened while pushing for them to re-evaluate the 4-DIMM models. We're being told that production 4-DIMM models could be available in as soon as 4 weeks.

So what does this mean to you?

We HIGHLY advise users NOT to purchase the 2-DIMM models. We know that there are 250 K7Master-S boards in the U.S. right now and there will be another 500 coming in to California next week. We have asked MSI to NOT release the boards coming in next week to distributors, but rather return them to Taiwan for modification to 4-DIMM slots. We are supposed to get a reply to our proposal on Tuesday from Taiwan. As for the K7Master, there are 1500 boards in the U.S. with 2-DIMM slots. Again, we have asked that they be recalled for the modification. Keep in mind, the PCB was NOT changed, the contacts to add the correct slots ARE on the boards. Making this change primarily consists of a documentation revision sheet and running the boards down the line for adding the slots. Finally, (the biggies) are the shipping and handling costs involved in such an undertaking. We suspect that this is what is causing MSI to hesitate.

We created a fairly strongly worded letter to MSI (that I will be posting on our web site) urging them to make these changes, as their promotional materials are using our and Tom's Hardware reviews to endorse the 4-DIMMM motherboards while they are actually shipping a 2-DIMM board. (Something that we would NOT endorse nor, I suspect would Tom Pabst.

I feel it important to note all of these facts, as limiting the consumer to two DIMM slots would have a major impact to motherboards that we are endorsing as high-end products. Cutting your available RAM from 1Gig to 512MB (As 256MB DIMMs are the best you can get in the real world, regardless of specifications) makes a big difference to us, as we suspect it will to most.

I will try to keep everyone in the loop as much as possible. In the meantime, we would appreciate it if ANYONE that is interested in purchasing one of these motherboards would write us a letter expressing their interest in having this change implemented. Supporting documentation is the best way to help us expedite a recall.

Thanks Everyone.
Steve Benoit


Stable Technologies
'The way IT should be!'

 

[chrisojeda]

Steve,

Thanks for the insight. A few questions. First, I understand why they removed 2 slots. I am just wondering if having two slots with 512 MB is plenty for gaming? I know that games are evolving but do you think that in 3 years 512 MB won't be enough? I can see where someone uses the computer for Database serving or web serving that having the most memory is critical.

Lastly...DAMN MSI!

Thanks...Chris

It worked yesterday! :lol:

 

[stable]

Chris

I suspect that by that time, memory will have evolved up to 1GB DIMMs, so probably it wouldn't be an issue. We just feel bad that this whole thing happened.

In an attempt to have more control over the outcome, we attempted to purchase all 250 K7Master-S motherboards, but by the time we found out what was going on, it was too late to accomplish this.

Steve Benoit

Stable Technologies
'The way IT should be!'

 

[SERVO]

Thanks again Steve!!!! So where do we go from here? What's left to buy the kt266 is out and so is the kt133. Amd 761 is buggy and I want a stable MB!!!!HELP!!!!! At this point overclocking and top performance is taking a back seat to stability. I've waited 9 weeks to upgrade and with no real direction to follow at this time thank GOD!! we have you!!.
So let's have it "your best shoot!!" which MB would you get for your home/gaming PC?

 

[Guest]

Thank you Steve. Yesterday I spoke with MSI California Sales and Marketing department, and after almost an hour of discussion with several different people there I was finally given a straight answer. They basically told me that the SCSI version would not be released in the states.

Aparently, the entire MSI marketing team is either greatly mis-informed, or they just wanted to get rid of me.

Well, after that I went hunting for the non-scsi version and found it at several locations. I ended up buying it but after reading your above post I am considering canceling my order.

Is there potential harm to the other components to my system if I use it? I already have in my possession a 1.33 Athlon processor and 2 sticks of registered ECC 256 meg PC-2100 Crucial DDR.

Oh well, I guess we'll see what happens. I went to your site and saw the link to email MSI to be put on a waiting list. Is there anything else I can do to help out? My quest for the K7 Master - S has been quite consuming, and I'm sure there are a lot of others out there like me. Anything I can do to give them a hand?

Thanks again for the insight into the issue. I feel a lot better. =)

Elghin

 

[hatimh]

Hello Steve,

that's a very detailed and informative reply, thank you for taking the time to explain, I'm sure there are a lot of people in a similar position to me at the moment.

Yes I'm glad that you mentioned about the DIMM slots, because the one in the shop actually had 2 slots as opposed to 4, the one used in Tom's power box, and so I was slightly confused.

To be honest I have actuall bought 2 * 256 MB CL 2.5 DIMMs. I really don't mind so much about there being only two slots, because eventually bigger DIMMs will be available cheaple and then I can put those in.

I appreciate that you have recommended us not to buy the 2 DIMM model, but foir me I can't wait another 4 weeks because all my PC parts are right here in front of me, and just watching the price of all these things I paid for go down, is torture. I heard how amazing the K7 Master S, but after reading post after post complaining that it cannot be found anywhere, I decided to go with the A7M266 which I have at the moment, the only problem is, for a board which isn't as good as the K7 Master S, and has so many problems which I've read about on the boards, it seems silly for me to use it. I'm already planning to take it back to the shop and purchase the K7 Master S instead.

So, what I want to know is, apart from the fact that the K7 Master S has only two slots instead of four, is there anything wrong with it, that we should be aware of?

And also do all of them come with SCSI onboard because that is SERIOUS bonus. I wouldn't mind if the K7 Master S cost more than the A7M266, because I want a solid system. The thing is it's actually cheaper than the A7M266.

If you could answer my questions it would be very much appreciated.

Thanks

------------------------------------------

Beer is the devil's piss.

 

[stable]

First, I wish to make a few personal comments and while I know other people are scrambling around to make corrections, I think it is important to point out my viewpoints regarding a few things being reported on various web sites.

1) THERE ARE NO KNOWN BUGS IN THE 686B CHIPSET! PERIOD.
2) THERE ARE KNOWN BUGS IN THE BIOS' THAT GO WITH THE 686B CHIPSET, and the manufacturers of these boards are scrambling around like cockroaches trying to fix them.

I'm really starting to get annoyed with some of the comments being shamefully posted in the attempt to gather attention and specifically those regarding bugs in the 686B south bridge.

Just because some motherboard manufacturers using the 686B decided to play, "blind mans' bluff" on California's 405 Freeway during rush hour, doesn't mean that VIA should be held accountable for all of the problems that resulted from this carelessness.

Even Viahardware.com (one of my favorite sites, by the way) is reporting the BIOS bugs by saying, "VIA Germany has officially acknowledged the 686 bug." This is just PLAIN WRONG, and I kind of flamed them for saying it. VIA has done no such thing, which I confirmed today. VIA clearly states that no bugs exist in the 686B chipset.

It should be clear (at least from some of my other posts) that the bugs are in the BIOS's and that the OEMs (in such a hurry to take our hard earned cash) are the ones COMPLETELY responsible for releasing motherboards prematurely.

VIA could be held partially responsible for not introducing a better, more refined BIOS with the initial release; however, since then fault clearly rests with the OEMs that were in such a hurry to RUSH their respective motherboards to market that they failed to perform adequate BETA testing, and this is what is killing us. TEST, VERIFY, PROPOSE, FIX. TEST, VERIFY, PROPOSE, FIX. TEST, VERIFY, PROPSE, FIX. It’s called Alpha and Beta testing folks, and it WAS used commonly in this industry.

The same thing can be said about the present situation with MSI releasing the K7Master and K7Master-S. Instead of thoroughly researching the issue, they made a quick decision that TOTALLY impacts the reasons why we (and others) endorsed this board in the first place. Yes, it was (and may still be) a good performer, but cutting the RAM capabilities in half completely changes our outlook on the product. Specifically, we liked these boards because for the applications for which they were developed, we used ECC-Registered DIMMs. Now, we can only use HALF as many, which eliminates the reason to use Registered DIMMs in the first place (to support that many chips).

While performance is one of the reasons why we endorsed these motherboards, it is NOT the only reason! There are MANY other issues that go into our decision to endorse ANY product including, stability, expandability, compatibility, value, how well it fits into it's target audience, design characteristics, etc.

Sorry to go off on a rant, I just want everyone to fully understand ALL of the issues.

As for the status of the MSI K7Master and K7Master-S, we just got two of each into the lab on Friday. We are reluctant to test products that we may be able to get recalled. If on Tuesday, MSI says that a recall won't be possible, we will be retracting our endorsement of the boards. We will then retest the existing products and go from there. I wish to be clear in stating that the boards that are currently shipping DO NOT carry our endorsement as they ARE NOT the products that we previously tested. As for other possible changes, there may be some, until we conduct a new round of tests we won't know for sure.

Steve Benoit


Stable Technologies
'The way IT should be!'

 

[SERVO]

To Steve: By no way am I under minding your clear knowledge of what your saying or do I put myself even close to what you know with the current tech. I'm a "newbie" in this forum! But I've been around since pong and I have put together many computer's Be older as they may be, I still see things at face value. 9 weeks ago I decided to upgrade and came to this forum looking for a good upgrade. Things have changed but the bottom line still remains the same WHAT'S GOOD!!
People look towards you for good advice and you do your best "I'm sure" to do so. Having my own company, I find myself defending products that maybe I shouldn't but no harm!!! People here hang on your every word so I can't help thinking you also want to protect your company. Letting out bad news about a product can only hurt you to! On the other hand you establish a good REP!!!RESELLERS should rate you 10.0!!!! So "with the most respect" In your opinion with what's going on now, where should people look for a good MB upgrade.

 

[IntelConvert]

Steve:

Just as an FYI (with all due respect), according to <A HREF="http://home.tiscalinet.de/au-ja/review-kt133a-1-en.html" target="_new">THIS EXPOSE</A>, the 686B problem appears to be very much associated with a flaw within the VIA686B Southbridge. This detailed article discusses the issues, how to test your own system for the problem's existence, and concludes with some solutions.

Furthermore, there was a notification release by VIA-Germany wherein they acknowledge the 686B problem.

 

[Guest]

i have msi k7 turbo(266 fsb)athlon 'c' 1.2 g,256 meg ram,absolutely rock solid,fast, runs for days with no re-boots,no memory losses that i have seen.would recommend to anyone.also available with onboard raid if ya gotta have it.good luck

 

[SERVO]

Be Happy your lucky!!! but your MB has nothing to do with this thread!!!!!K7 master or K7 Master-s is what were talking about it's ok!! your new!!!

 

[hatimh]

Hi,

before we drift away from the subject too much is it possible that someone could answer the questions that I posed in my previous post.

Thanks.

Beer is the devil's piss.

 

[stable]

BTW, read the article (days ago) and know all about it. Working with the same group of people, but again this is a FIRMWARE issue, not a chipset one.

As for what to buy, you did well in phrasing your question. It only makes my job harder. In order to address your question today, I would really have to know the primary and secondary requirements for exactly what it is that you are trying to do.

The good stuff would be like the CUSL2 motherboard from Asus using the 815E for the Intel Platform. Coupled with a 933+MHz CPU, a Hercules Game Theater XP and a good AGP4x Video card, the system will smoke and run well.

We also really love the CUSL2-M. While some may balk at the Micro ATX form factor, the system includes everything you need right on the motherboard. She runs as true as a Robin Hood’s best arrow right out of the box and is as stable as the Rock of Gibraltar even when using add-ins. We simply drop in a CPU and this becomes the perfect business system. For consumers that want more “oomph” in their system, add in a better video card and again, the Hercules game theater XP and she’s ready to hang with the best gamer systems with 6 PCI slots. Want to take your components with you? No problem, yank them out and you’ve still got everything you need for a great standard system.

More good stuff would be like the A7V133 with its' 4-IDE connectors and PC133 slots running the AMD 1.2GHz CPUs, or the KT7A or KT7A-Raid from Abit. Drop in a 1.2GHz CPU and run her up to 1.46MHz without even breaking a sweat. Any of these boards with the KT133A chipsets will perform well (especially after a BIOS upgrade that fixes the IDE DMA problems).

As for the best, our benchmarks show the most stable and fastest boards are using the AMD761 chipset. They are the MSI K7Master and K7Master-S. In our tests both boards creamed the competition. Nothing even came close, especially if used with 1GB of 2 stroke (not CAS 2.5) ECC-Registered DDR RAM from Corsair in 4-slots or 512MB of ECC-Unbuffered in 2. Of course we'll still have to see how this shakes out with the shipping motherboards, but if they haven't made any other changes, we'd have to say that it is still the fastest and most stable trucker out there.

Hope this helps.
Steve Benoit


Stable Technologies
'The way IT should be!'

 

[hatimh]

OK, well you've definitely made the whole issue clearer and I think I can safely go out there and buy the K7 Master S.

I doubt that the K7 Master S that I saw had on-board SCSI but I guess that would have just been a bonus anyway. What I'm after is stability and performance. I will mainly use my machine for general use and probably quite a bit of gaming. By the way If I'm using a CoolerMaster fan (EP5 6I11) which is recommended by AMD up to 1.33 GHz, how much could I overclock it to, without doing the chip any harm (running at a safe temperature), I've got thermal paste to apply between. Also I have 2 additional case fans, one drawing air into the case from the front and one drawing air out of the case at the back (does that sound OK?)

Thanks for your help.

Beer is the devil's piss.

 

[Guest]

Hmm, so there _is_ a reason for buying registered memory for a non-server system, after all! I wonder now if I should return my two unbuffered 256MB sticks ere the money back guarantee expires.

Leo

 

[Booky]

All K7 Master-S have onboard SCSI, that is what the -S is for. If you seen a board without the onboard SCSI then it was the K7 Master.

Crap, all the good ones are already taken.

 

[Booky]

Steve, Have you been testing the K7T266 Pro? If not give her a shot with the new BIOS .10c (I got it from ocworkbench.com). I guarantee you will like the results. It has complete stability now and runs faster than the AMD 760 boards. I even think it beats the K7 Master, but not sure since I don't have a K7 Master to run Sandra memory on. I ran mine with 512MB(2 256MB sticks) of PC2100 (crucial) CAS2.5 with 1t enabled and 4 way interleave, and got 608/763. Let me know what the K7 Master gets with this.


Crap, all the good ones are already taken.

 

[SERVO]

Thanks Steve!! The K7 master looks to be a good choice. Stability and gaming is at the top of my list overclocking is second. Has there been enough changes in the K7 master-s to warrant this MB over it's older sibling. Also I'm only planning to use 256mb's so could I puchase one now or do I need to wait for the 4 slot ones.

 

[hatimh]

Many thanks to Steve from Stable Technologies for answering a lot of the questions about this motherboard.

After doing a lot of reading, I think I can actually say that a really good Athlon Thunderbird motherboard to go for would be the MSI K7 Master or Master S, for best performance and least setup issues.

By the way If I'm using a CoolerMaster fan (EP5 6I11) which is recommended by AMD up to 1.33 GHz, how much could I overclock it to, without doing the chip any harm (running at a safe temperature), provided that I apply thermal paste between.

Beer is the devil's piss.

 

[Crashman]

YOu should be able to get the 1333 to go 1500 at 150FSB using this board. I don't know how well the Coolermaster EP5-6I11 works, but the Thermaltake VolcanoII and Globalwin FOP-32 are doing good. For better cooling than that you can try the FOP38, or the Silverado.

Cast not thine pearls before the swine

 

[Guest]

Thanks once more Steve, for your very imformative posts.

Since it seems as though the only issue with the K7 Master-S is the two DIMM slots, I think I will go ahead and try to get one since I already have unbuffered memory anyway, and I am quite content with 512 Mb of RAM.

I do want to try to find one with the SCSI though, since I have a SCSI scanner I want to use, and am planning to buy a Pioneer SCSI DVD drive. I'd rather have an integrated controller than having to put yet another PCI card in the machine. I already am going to have a sound card, Ethernet card, and modem card in there.

The machine will be for home use, a fair amount of gaming and some applications like Campaign Cartographer (a fantasy mapping program). It's going to use 2 256Mb unbuffered non-registered DDR Dimms (crucial), a 1.33 GHz Athalon-c, and a MSI Gforce2 Pro 64Mb video card.

Any recommendations you can make would be lovely.

Basically I'm just waiting on the motherboard, and have been watching and reading for awhile and trying to make my mind up. I was planning on the K7T266, then that whole mess with the resistors as well as reviews on the KT266 chipset changed my mind. Then I was going to go with the Asus A7M266 until I saw your post on it having only one unshared PCI slot, not being a good system for gaming.

Now I think I am settled on the K7 Master-S, if only I can find one! Finding one from a Canadian supplier is going to be next to impossible I imagine...

Would you have any idea when some of these may become available?

Wayne

 

[Guest]

I have the K7 Master, and if I install the AMD 761 Chipset AGP driver v4.80 for 9x and ME, ME Refuses to boot. I tried loading up Win2k Pro, and the win2k AMD AGP driver works fine, but I don't want to use 2k Pro.

I have a 1.33Ghz Athlon running at 1.46Ghz, 256MB crucial PC2100 RAM.

I've searched around to see if anyone else is having this problem, but haven't seen anything.. has anyone else had this problem?

My next step is to try 98SE, to test, but I actually have a legit version of ME, so I want to use that if at all possible.

Thanks,

Balaroo