Criminal info databases...

Ok, I will respond to your meaninfull conversation. I don't know how difficult it would be to implement it, but it would make too much sense to do it. Since when did the government do anything that makes sense? I think it would be rather difficult to switch everything over initially, but would be a huge benefit in the long run.

<font color=blue>I want to save the world for my children, but not my children's children, because children shouldn't be having sex. - Deep Thought</font color=blue>

I think it would be a great idea if they could get a central database of criminals. But I think that in the U.S., the different enforcement agencies view themselves as in competition with the others. It seems like the agencies do not cooperate enough and they hide information from each other. If they could get all the information in one centralized location I think solving crimes could become a lot easier.

In a world without <font color=red>walls </font color=red>or <font color=green>fences </font color=green>, what use have we for <font color=red>Windows </font color=red>or <font color=green>Gates.</font color=green>

For cost, I think almost 98% of Americans are willing to pay a little bit of extra tax, nothing too big, to contribute to a majorly more secure USA.
The thing is and still is, that America is on the right side of the bar, far too right, where it is a capitalistic world. Canada is much more to the left, so the question is, should there be more tax services like in Canada, more socialism, to perhaps create a less individualistic feel, but a collective one in order for everyone to help in making the place more secure? This isn't commie crap btw, it's a socialistic boost, which is a must if the country is ultra-capitalistic. (think 1929)

--
The worst of enemies shall be prone to later be the best of friends. -Eden

So I'm a fanatic because I'm opposed to gun control? Gun control is the lamest thing that's ever come around. (well not gun control, but what gun control is today) We don't need gun control. What we need are the laws enforced, and we need gun safety as a mandatory class from grades k-12. I also think appeals should be limited to three years. After that tough luck. Death penalty should be implemeted for any crime committed with <i>any</i> weapon. I bet you anything crime rate would drop dramtically. No need for taking away guns. Just enforce the current laws.

"I can't promise perfection but I'll give it a fair shot and hope that it doesn't take away from the sponteneity and good humour of the forum, which I really enjoy." - <b>WingDing</b>

You lost me on that first paragraph, could you restate what your opinion was?

And yes the rest is true, with what the country may think of Bush's actions, that will represent a lot of the US mentality, IF it is a representative statistical election.

--
The worst of enemies shall be prone to later be the best of friends. -Eden

I mean that the rights of the individual in America seem to outweigh the rights of the population at large. The Constitution and Bill of rights as I understand them guarantee the rights of the individual, but not necessarily at the expense of the rest of the population.

I am simply not convinced that "guns don't kill people, people kill people". It's much more difficult to beat someone to death, or to mortally wound someone with a knife than it is to shoot them. Countries in which the general population does not have access to weapons more powerful than its law enforcement possesses do not suffer from the same acts of violence, or rates of "violent" crime as does the US.

I don't particularly like guns. I've never felt I had to have one to protect myself. There's one in my house now because of my husband's job, and he's taught me how to use it. I've fired the weapon, and I understand that there's a difference between viewing firearms as a hobby/sport vs. destruction or protection. I just simply disagree with the idea that in our time, the average citizen needs to be armed in the same way they had to be 200 years ago.

Therefore, it bothers me that a document that was created to protect the rights of all citizens now serves to protect the rights of some citizens seemingly at the expense of other citizens.




<font color=red>"Monkey chow?"....."Well for the monkeys of course!!!!!!"</font color=red>

The population is a group of individuals. Therefore all of the individuals rights are protected the same. No one is getting special treatment.

The consequences don't out weigh the benefits with our current laws. I mean think about it. Do you speed when you are in your car? What happens if you get caught, you have to pay a ticket and after so many times you get revoked. Well what would happen if they changed that to if you speed then you serve 1 month in jail for every mile over the speed limit. I'm pretty sure no one would speed, and if they did then they wouldn't do it more than once. The punishments just need to be harsher. We wouldn't have half the problems we do today if their was a threat of a harsher punishment. I own guns by the way. I hunt on a regular basis. It controls the population of deer and other animals that no longer have natural predators. I also own a handgun. I carry it with me when i hunt. I've been attacked by an animal before on the way out to my deer stand and it's much quicker to draw a handgun than it is to draw your rifle or shotgun. If everyone had a concealed weapon do you think the crime rate would be as high? I mean think about it. If gun safety and shooting classes were required in grade school you would know that people have weapons and know how to use them. I seriously doubt you are going to commit a crime against them. Another thing is if you out law guns it won't help any. I can think of at least a hundred other things that are just as, if not more deadly than a gun. So can anyother regular joe. Just go to amazon.com and look up Anarchist cookbook and wallah. If you've got half a brain you can rig up a weapon that fires a projectile on your own. You wouldn't even need a gun for that. I just think it's silly the way people think that getting rid of guns will get rid of crime.


"I can't promise perfection but I'll give it a fair shot and hope that it doesn't take away from the sponteneity and good humour of the forum, which I really enjoy." - <b>WingDing</b>

Well...as guns are such a fundamental part of "the American way"...I agree that it's silly to think that we even <i>could</i> eradicate weapons in this country.

I also agree that were we to have harsher penalties and were somehow able to enforce them consistenly, that in all likelihood the crime rate would drop.

However, the argument that goes "we can't take away people's guns, therefore we should arm EVERYONE"...is ludicrous IMO. I don't think it's the answer at all. Arming people with anger management issues, people who should just NOT own guns (much like people who should just NOT be permitted to have children!)...YIKES!! Arming <i>rational</i> people <i>sounds</i> good, but it's not realistic.

And as far as putting my kids through weapons training in school...well...as far as I'm concerned, that's unnacceptable. Yes I want my child to respect guns, but I don't want them to be so familiar with guns that the "fear" factor is lost and it becomes just another tool at their disposal.

We took our kids shooting. My husband wanted to show both of them what a gun is capable of. I did not object, and the lesson was well received. In all likelihood we won't need to repeat it, as it had quite an impact on them. The kind of impact that WE wanted...to scare them and make them understand the difference between a television gunshot and a real live gunshot.

This is one of those issues that causes my face to twitch...LOL.
Please, let's just agree to disagree...k?



<font color=red>"Monkey chow?"....."Well for the monkeys of course!!!!!!"</font color=red>

What "fear" factor is there? I think it's peoples lack of respect and knowledge of guns is what makes them dangerous. There doesn't need to be any fear factor invovled at all. They need to respect the gun for what it is. A tool used to kill. Once they understand this and realize it is not a toy then there is no problem.

"I can't promise perfection but I'll give it a fair shot and hope that it doesn't take away from the sponteneity and good humour of the forum, which I really enjoy." - <b>WingDing</b>

You are in danger because you do not know much about guns. The more you know about things the safer they become to you. Imagine if your husband left his gun on the counter (this would never happen cause you should never do this) If you knew nothing about guns you wouldn't know how to handle it and put it up. But you would need to put it up so the kids don't get to it. It is still a lack of respect for guns and human life. If you respected the power of a gun you'd never kill a human with it. You'll always be in danger of the unstabel yahoos. If they don't have guns they'll find another means of destruction, and really it's not that hard to make a replacement. I could do it with things laying around at my house or find them at a local hardware store in about an hour tops. (which is much quicker than buying a gun) Killing is never a sterile affair. Even if you snipe someone it's still in your mind. If it's not then strangling them would be no different. It's the mindset not the method. Again it's a complete lack of respect for weapons that lead to a lot of accidents. You've already said that we'll never get rid of weapons in this country and that's completly true. So we need to stop trying for harsher gun control and just start enforcing the laws we have in place. A responsible gun owner will keep his fire arm in a locked fire proof safe. He will also keep his ammunition in a locked fire proff safe. It's preferable to hide these safes and make them completly out of reach of children. I believe that children should be taught that guns are weapons to kill and not toys. I don't even think children should own bb guns. Those just encourage children to misbehave with weapons. I'd much rather give my child (when I get one) a gun that a bb gun. I had my first gun at age 10. Before I had that I went to a hunters education class and learned all about gun safety. My dad gave me the gun and when ever I carried it, it was always unloaded. I had to learn how to walk with a gun and learn proper gun safety before I could shoot it. Then he taught me how to shoot. One of those teachings was never ever point a gun at a person, even if it's unloaded. And never shoot anything that you aren't 100% sure of what it is. If there is any doubt, just let it go there will always be another chance. I think that if people learned about gun safety they'd be a lot less likely to get rid of guns. I don't know maybe it's different for me because I live in the midwest and grew up with guns and <i><b>use</i></b> it every year for it's intended use. I own rifles, shotguns, and handguns. I shoot all of them on a regular basis. I don't see anything wrong with them. Sure they can be dangerous, but so are cars. And there are a lot more deaths per year from cars than there are from guns.

"I can't promise perfection but I'll give it a fair shot and hope that it doesn't take away from the sponteneity and good humour of the forum, which I really enjoy." - <b>WingDing</b>

Yes I have. I've been hunting before and my brother has inadvertantly pointed a gun at me. (he was watching the rabbit not his surroundings) I just made sure to tell him that he needs to know who is around him when he is hunting. Every hunter has a line of site and a hunting zone. You should be aware of this and then you will not end up pointing a gun at anyone. Misfires happen, they are very dangerous. I had a gun that misfired from the factory. Ammo that has been misfired is very dangerous to dispose of. You should know how to do this before you go shooting. I'm sorry that some people are so stupid that they'd put any gun to their head. Loaded or not. If they are that stupid they'll end up killing themselves anyway. Just like the guy that tried to swallow a live perch. He swallowed it backwards and the fish finned him and lodged itself in his throat. He died. So you are for gun control simply because a couple of idiots didn't know gun safety? That's my whole issue. You guys want to take guns away from law abiding citizens who know how to properly handle weapons and it pisses me off. And what's wrong with gun safety being taught in schools? Sex education is taught in schools? I don't see what's so bad about teaching gun safety. Oh my god! Kids might actually realize that guns aren't bad and then all you [-peep-] hippies won't have a leg to stand on. Get serious. Sorry if I sound a little irate. Your opinions are based off of flawed logic and sterotypes. How about you go to a gun safety course and sit through it and then tell me every child shouldn't know how to properly handle a gun. It's just like never telling your children they shouldn't drink and drive. You keep them sheltered their whole life and they won't know how to handle the situation when it comes to light. Let's say they go off to college and go to a party. They don't drink because you've taught them that's bad, but they get into a car with a buddy that has been drinking and then they die in the wreck. Had they known not to drink and drive the whole situation could have been avoided. It's the same with guns. Most accidents are caused by people not knowing what to do with a gun. So lets say we don't teach gun safety in school. Let's make it a federal mandatioin that you have to pass a gun safety training course before you can buy a gun. Lets even say that you have to take a seperate course for shotguns, rifles, and handguns. I'm not opposed to that. Make it a three month course. If you're in to much of a hurry to learn gun safety then you don't need to be touching a gun. Stupid people amaze me. What amazes me more is people that use them as an example to support their points. Stupid people are not the rule.

"I can't promise perfection but I'll give it a fair shot and hope that it doesn't take away from the sponteneity and good humour of the forum, which I really enjoy." - <b>WingDing</b>

Don't get me wrong. I'm not against guns or owning guns. Nor am I against gun safety training, although the idea of gun safety training at schools sounds quite alien to me. Anyway, guns are a necessary evil, if you can call an inanimate object "evil". If you read my post closely, you noticed that I've served a brief stint in military. I'm definitely not one to pass judgement on guns or gun owners.

Just that the idea of everyone carrying guns for protection, all the time, like a way-of-file thing, sounds rather alarming to me. Nothing wrong about knowing how to handle guns, or indeed handling guns. I'm just saying, you're required to get a permit to drive a car. That is, to prove that you are able to drive one with a degree of responsibility. My beef is, I am under the impression that in the US it's great deal easier to get a legal gun than a driver's license, at least in some states. Correct me if I'm wrong (since I probably am).

So my idea of "gun control" would be kind of arrangement where you have to prove that you can handle guns responsibly. Not that much different of obtaining a driver's license, really.

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<font color=green><i>Work is the curse of the drinking classes. --- Oscar Wilde</i></font color=green>

I just don't believe that people in a civilized society need to own guns other than those used for hunting. Truth be told, I don't really believe in hunting, unless one's existence depends on it. Taking another life is just not something that I condone. No, I'm not a vegetarian. Yes, I understand where all the meat comes from that we consume every year. And yes, I recognize the hypocrisy of my position...

I understand that you believe that everyone should be taught about guns and gun safety so that they learn respect for the weapon and its capabilities.

I find it sad that our kids should <i>have</i> to be taught that at all...sad that the likelihood of them coming into contact with a gun during their lifetime is very high. That distresses me.

I also recognize that your upbringing was way different than mine. I'm glad your father took the time to instill in you a healthy respect for guns. I don't have any idea if your experience is the norm or not.

I just don't like guns.

<font color=red>"Monkey chow?"....."Well for the monkeys of course!!!!!!"</font color=red>

Wow! I guess we're back on track here. That kind of inefficient bureaucratic hassle definitely speaks volumes for unified databases.

BTW, just out of curiosity, I checked how complicated it would be to get a gun permit where I live. In theory, very simple, all handled by the local police department (US equivalent would be state police I guess):

Age limit is 18, or 15 years for hunting or sports shooting (parental approval needed, I suppose). Separate permits needed for purchasing and keeping (when applying for the keeping permit, you'll have to demonstrate the weapon. No mods allowed, folks). Any criminal record, or record of abusing alcohol, or recorded drug use is an automatical no-go. Police department has the right invite you for a personal interview to determine if you're a suitable gun owner. I guess they can throw in drug testing if they so choose.

Here's the catch: you need to provide a reason for purchasing/owning a gun, and the burden of proof is on you. Valid reasons are hunting, sports, work requirement, gun exhibitions etc, display at gun museum, storage as a memento, signalling (whatever that means). The gun to be purchased must be suitable for the declared purpose and must not be more powerful than the declared purpose requires. In practice, it means that they're not going to take away dear departed pa's firearms. But if you want to buy one of your own, I suppose the easiest way would be to join some hunting / marksmanship club and get a statement from them to prove that you're using the gun for hunting or sports. "Home protection" or "just wanna own a gun" won't wash. Plus, I think there's some law about gun storage (locked cabinet, unloaded, separate locked cabinet for ammo I think). Not actively enforced to my understanding, but if the gun gets stolen, the police will definitely be interested in how you stored the gun...

Weapons classified as particularly dangerous (e.g automatics) require a special permit, and chances of a private citizen getting such a permit are slim indeed. Furthermore, the application goes all the way to ministry of internal affairs, so holding your breath waiting for the permit isn't advisable in any case.

Ah, to get somewhat back on track, it's an unified database and one authority, but they're not making it particularly easy. Oh yes, if you want to sell the gun, permit race starts again. If you want to become a gun collector, it's back to the ministry of internal affairs again.

To sum it up, getting a gun just for the heck of it simply isn't worth the hassle in here, and I'm OK with it.

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<font color=green><i>Work is the curse of the drinking classes. --- Oscar Wilde</i></font color=green>

I think that signalling means for starting a race and what not.

<font color=green>My other personality is schitzofrenic.</font color=green>

That is the first time I've ever heard anyone use population control as a reason for hunting. (Please remember, I come from an urban environment). I understand about the ecosystem...I just have a problem taking a life!

I was fishing in Mexico with my hubby and his parents. His brother caught a fish that he wanted to fillet and use for bait. Instead of bonking it on the head to kill it (which I am accustomed to) he simply grabbed the fillet knife and started filleting it while it thrashed about on the end of the line. He asked me to hold a piece of the meat, and feeling the flesh pulsing in my hand was just too much for me. All I could think of was that I was sorry. After it was over I just went off to the front of the boat and cried.

Now...you're probably laughing your ass off about that...being the hunter that you are. But I just don't like killing animals. It feels terrible to me. Call me a hippie, a humanitarian, a girl, whatever, I can't change how I feel about it.

I have never lived anywhere where deer threatened my vehicle. I suppose I would feel differently if I did.

Regarding viewing the gun as a tool like a hammer. Well...tell me the last time you used your gun to put up a picture. A gun has one purpose. It is very efficient at doing what it was meant to do. A hammer, although it may be used as a weapon, has an intended use that is more on the creative end of the spectrum...buidling, repairing, etc.

When I said it was sad about being required to teach kids about guns, I meant that I agree that kids should be aware of and respect guns, but that it saddens me that the REASON they should be taught that is that they may be forced into a position in which a gun is used <i>against</i> them.

I would much rather that my children were versed in the rules of diplomacy and negotiation than I would that they be familiar with guns.

<font color=red>"Monkey chow?"....."Well for the monkeys of course!!!!!!"</font color=red>

Regarding the fish...it wasn't that I was queasy...it was that I felt so sad for the way the fish died. I felt like it had suffered unnecessarily. It just felt bad, wrong even.

And what if it's a sniper? Or some kid with "issues" at school? Or some terrorist with an agenda? What they want is my kids' life!

I don't know...I know that you can't do anything about those situations. It's just what I think about when I think about guns and my children. Not even on topic..I know. I'm emotional about the issue. I just feel that some things wouldn't happen if guns weren't so available.

Interesting situation:

Last night around midnight...my husband and I were in our "computer room", a bedroom right at the front of the house. He had just gotten home from work and we were talking. We heard a noise, and he got up to see what it was. Turned out it was some guy who had openned our front door and walked into our foyer. He was in the wrong house. We live in one of those neighborhoods of duplexes that all look the same...and he had wandered into the wrong one. My husband looked at him, and the guy who was totally contrite, said "Holy [-peep-] dude..I'm in the wrong house" and backed out the door, very slowly.

Now...freaky as that was, I can understand his mistake.
What is interesting is my husband's comment after the fact. He said "It was a good thing I hadn't been coming out of our bedroom (where he had just put his service gun when he'd gotten home), I'd have come out here with my gun!"

Now..prior to having a gun in our house...it would have been a baseball bat. But...it's just interesting to me that the most dangerous weapon at our disposal is the one we choose first.

I don't know. It's a difficult issue for me. I can understand the logic of your arguments...I just can't reach the same conclusion you do. I would still rather NOT have a gun in my house.

<font color=red>"Monkey chow?"....."Well for the monkeys of course!!!!!!"</font color=red>