NFORCE AMD and Nvidia fight back

If this chipset is fast and stable, intel is in for one hell of a beating. Today could be the begining of the end of chipzilla's reign. Nvidia making AMD chipsets -- that is the single smartest move I have ever seen AMD pull off. Nvidia has got everything it takes to do it right. Even if this chipset is only ok, Nvidia will only get better. Nvidia moves with lethal speed, If I was intel I'd watch my butt.

-- Chaos is the better order.
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  1. And a name that sells anything!

    Cast not thine pearls before the swine
  2. You gotta love nVidia- they've certainly made a huge and everlasting name for themselves. Man, it seems like yesterday nVidia released the RIVA 128. Like Tom said- they're a HUGE threat to everyone... the only company that stands to benefit from nVidia is AMD and Microsoft. I think this a good thing though- there needs to be some good competition within AMD chipsets- especially with VIA.

    Once nForce based boards hit the market- OEM's are gonna be screaming for them- and they'll all have Athlons. Imagine the marketing that'll come from Compaq and other OEM's "our computers contain the same stuff the X Box does". That'll really kill intel- esp. if the X Box does well.

    Intel, more than anyone is in some serious crap. They need to get their ducks in a row and come up with something- fast. I don't really feel sorry for Intel though- they put themselves in this position by closing all their doors to other chips companies. The P4 is doing horribly because no one wants to pay the outrageous prices for the chipsets and memory... If only Intel would allow others to duplicate the i850 design- more would adopt.

    -MP Jesse

    "Signatures Still Suck"
  3. AMD Hypertransport, dual channel DDR-SDRAM support, kick-a$$ integrated sound, pretty good integrated graphics (with an AGP slot for expansion).

    It almost sounds too good to be true. It's been a long time coming, but when Nvidia does something it does it right!

    If this chipset is half as fast as it sounds, VIA better just declare bankruptcy immediately. As long as it doesn't run into stability and manufacturing issues, this chipset is going to run everyone else out of business.

    And what's with VIA suing over some patent infringements? Like VIA could ever make anything that good... they're just suing becuase they're afraid of going broke...

    Now I can't wait for an official test of this chipset. We can only hope that it ends up being a stable platform.

    I apologize for being a little excitable, but I've been waiting for the day when we didn't have to put up with VIA to get an AMD...

    <i>I don't know anything about computers... but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night...</i> :lol:
  4. This looks awesome. Now I'm sorry I didn't wait one more year before upgrading. Let's hope NVidia gets it right regarding compatibility/stability issues. As for Intel, the beginning of the end for them was when the got into bed with Rambus. One question if anyone knows, I can't tell from the description: is there a LAN controller built into the Nforce?
  5. Quote:
    : is there a LAN controller built into the Nforce?

    It sounds to me like the answer is YES!

    <i>It's always the one thing you never suspected.</i>
  6. Hmmm its only GF2 MX chipset.. Thats about the only 'weakness' I see in this new motherboard. I rather perfered to see a GF3 chipset or other type of option. Why pay for the GF2 MX (30 bucks or not) when you will not use it? I rather have intergrated GF3 and pay more for it.

    Don't get me wrong the MX is nice and will be for majority of the users. Nvida just forgotten about the power gamers and MAYBE overclockers.

    NVIDA has great DDR and other techno.. I was drooling over it. So don't flame me for being single-sided.. It is probaly one of the greatest boards hitting the market. (have to see what abit is launching and the new sis chip)

    When will the Abit latest AMD 761 come out... Anyone know?

    IMacs for the blind
  7. Well guess nForce isnt best it does lose out on 1 thing:

    SiS 735 North to South bridge 1.026gb transfer

    nForce North to South bridge 800mb transfer

    Looks like SiS has a chance to bet out the nforce.

    Nice Intel and AMD users get a Cookie.... :smile: Yummy :smile:
  8. One impressive design by nVidia, I hope it works as advertise. If it does then it looks like nVidia will continue to grow while most other computer companies will continue to shrink. Can't wait for the testing to begin with this chipset. I have a hard time believing that this chipset will be stable from the get go, but if it is!!! OMG, what a relief from the via crap. Take for instance the 686B south bridge, it is only one chip which is really only an update and look at the freaking bugs that chip has. RDRam finally has a superior technology to compete against, higher bandwidth, lower latency and cheeper to boot and less enemies. Bye bye RDRam, no one will miss you except maybe Intel.

    Well to eat your <b>C :smile: :smile: kie</b> and have it too, gotta get <b>Rade :smile: n II</b>
  9. Quote:
    Today could be the begining of the end of chipzilla's reign

    Dont bet on it. Intel will be around as long as there are processers in computers.

    Dont get too excited about Chipzilla Jr.(Nvidia) As much as some folks hate Intel around here, Nvidia uses many of the same buisness tactics as Intel. Via, SIS, Ali or Intel wont go down without a fight either. This is not the end-all of chipsets. We haven't even seen it perform just yet.

    Blah, Blah Blahh, Blahh, blahh blah blahh, blah blah.
  10. There sure is (a LAN controller). Yeah- while I don't think this is it for Intel, they've definitely screwed up. The days of Intel dominating the PC market are over- now they have to share with AMD. Which isn't a bad thing- it'll only spark up faster processors at competitive prices.

    -MP Jesse

    "Signatures Still Suck"
  11. Not just Intel but also CREATIVE. HAHAHAHAHAH kiss my ass Creative Labs, your reign over sound is near its end, mouahahahahahaha.
  12. One thing I didn't get was the memory table. The bandwidth of the memory controller should accomodate PC2100 DDR and there was a picture of the chipset connected to PC2100 DDR. But the table doesn't list compatible memory faster than PC1600. What gives?
    Baron, it makes perfect marketing sense to only put MX graphics on it. This gives good performance for those who don't really need the best. But if you do, you still need to go buy a premium card. Why give up $250 per board when you don't have to?
  13. Exactly. And that is why we'll see a chipset with integrated GeForce3 only in a year or two (summer 2002, according to some, but it could be later), when better GeForce versions will have already been around. :)

    Leo
  14. It seems that Intel has met a difficult challenge. But the company seems to be more focused (and worried) with its future (now present) 64-bit line - AKA Itanium & Co.
    The problem for Intel is that they usually use the huge margins in mainstream CPUs to subsidise (sp?) the introduction of a new family of CPUs, but this time the margins are much lower than usual. In P3 systems, thanks to AMD. In P4 thanks to Rambust...

    NVidia's Crush is indeed a threat both to Intel and Creative, but specially to VIA - not that this company wasn't asking for it.

    But personally I think this product has a few of "strange characteristics" - at least the best version:

    For business, the Integrated GFX can be anything that supports decent 3d - I actually would prefer a 3d "decelerator" - cheap is the name of the game - and AMD was lacking decent support of a trully integrated chipset (VGA+LAN+Sound). So, the sound and VGA of Crush seem to be an overkill - and there is no premium price in this area... but if the price is right - bye bye Celeron!!!

    Mainstream users seem to the ideal target for this - don't know about the dual memory bus - are they willing to pay the premium? Anyway IMHO it seems to be a killer chipset for this segment.

    Hardcore gamers - if they made the same chipset without the GFX (what about an embeded cache instead of that silicon waste for GF3 owners?)....

    If Nvidia can deliver this (inexpensive, bug free,...) , the future looks interesting for AMD...

    Cheers,

    Arbee
  15. Intel is right to be concerned with Itanium. AMD is going to have a competing 64-bit story that's just an extension of the current X86, while Itanium is a ground-up new chip. Intel could have done what AMD is doing and had a 64-bit story years ago, instead they bet the ranch on Itanium. Only time will tell if that was a good bet or not. The Rambus bet was (IMO) an unqualified blunder. They can be forgiven for making the blunder but why they continue to push a losing hand is beyond me - you gotta know when to hold 'em, and know when to fold 'em. Intel fans will have to wait until 2002 to get DDR support from an Intel chipset. One thing I don't see in nForce is multi-CPU support. Nvidia may leave the server end of the business to Intel.

    <P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by dmcmahon on 06/04/01 10:53 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
  16. I'm excited as I've posted else ware about the Crush as well as the other Nvidia products.

    Smething came to mind to me as I keep reading the excitement all over the web.

    What if Nvidia started making CPU's??? I know that it would be like q1 03 or 04???? We could be seeing the next Chipzillia raising right now. A real threat to Intel & AMD. With Nvidia's track record it could be a real war on the horizon!!!!

    Just a thought!!!!

    Skinny

    How do you eat a elephant? One bit at a time!
  17. Via, SIS, Ali or Intel are fighting back pettytheft

    Its called northwood. SiS, ALi, ATi has lincense for the P4 bus. Via is using s3 for there way to release a chipset. Well lets see if there northwood chipset will scare AMD to rethink it out. Remember RDRAM claims of high bandwith and failed. Same thing with the Noforce.

    Nice Intel and AMD users get a Cookie.... :smile: Yummy :smile:
  18. Actually, an nForce motherboard would be great for hardcore gamers!!

    Sure it doesn't have built-in GeForce3, but think about the other stuff.

    Eventually you'll want to replace your current mobo to support higher processors. Why not get the nForce card so you have awesome sound & built-in Ethernet port? You can sell your Soundblaster (and NIC if you want) on eBay for a little extra cash.

    Or if you're building a brand new box from scratch then of course you'd go for the nForce board. No need to buy a soundcard or NIC at all.
  19. What do you think????
  20. I think the Noforce chip has potential but not proven. Who knows what capatiblity problems or stability this chip has. It took years for via to produce a semi reliable chip. Look at Intel and the 820 chipset. Now Nvidia pops up out of no where and produces a chipset that beats all others? Well I hope so but as you can see I have my doubts. Hopefully Nvidia can deliver a bug free chipset. I won't be rushing out to buy this chipset until the tests and data are in and then until the chipset matures a little. The other chipset I am looking at is the SIS 735. It doesn't have the subpar 3d graphics built in which means I don't have to buy. Also the 735 has a greater bandwidth between the North and intergrated South bridges really meaing a one chip solution with very short traces. So far the 735 performance specs are better then any other AMD chipset out there. I will wait and see which one is the best.

    Well to eat your <b>C :smile: :smile: kie</b> and have it too, gotta get <b>Rade :smile: n II</b>
  21. I wonder if there are gonna be any laptops with this chip...
    Integrated chips are great for laptops :)
    Was it compatible with Athlon4?
    I want a Athlon4 with nFORCE laptop!!!
  22. I'm a bit weary about how everything is built in to the board... most custom system builders shy away from such a thing. It seems like the OEM release of motherboards, which scares me a little. I think I would buy the board just because of how it handles DDR ram (*drooling over the 4 gig transfer*) but is a built in GForce2 necessary, not to mention the sound hardware? The latest review of Crush stated that it was like getting a sound card "for free", which I highly doubt is feasible - this is supposed to be the most powerful sound technology on the market, so I'm sure they had to liscense it/develop it from Microsoft, not to mention the price of the hardware.

    If this board is 50$ more than the same boards out there because of its graphics card and sound card (this is when hypothetically, a bunch of boards are out based on its technology) then I'm going to be angry at Nvidia for adding on these features without a barebones version of the board, letting us pick and choose what we want. By the end of the summer I would be looking for a GeForce3 in my computer, so if I bought this board and knew I paid an extra 20$ for it because of the built in Geforce 2 (at 20$ thats a great price, don't get me wrong) I would be angry - its like buying a car and paying extra for the nice tires, and going home and putting better tires that you already bought on the car.

    Also, will Asus etc. be producing motherboards with the DDRam transfer technology? If they come out at the same time as the Nforce, I would rather buy a barebones version from then to avoid the annoyances stated above, as Nvidia seems to have produced an "all-in-one" perfect for OEM systems board, but not for custom system builders. I do hope they offer a minimum featured board; I'd also rather use my existing lan card if their lan technology adds to the overall price =)

    And whoever posted about Nvidia producing a CPU, I think that would be a bad idea because AMD has experience and is doing well, and if Nvidia rivaled them they wouldn't work together anymore, and if Nvidia was successful they would own a large, large chunk of the computing market (graphics, sound, motherboards, and CPUs) which would probably end up like macintosh somehow. Macintosh had control of everything, producing every piece of their own hardware - that spells less competition and fewer "new ideas".

    Just my inputs...


    -Phil Crosby
    http://www.philisoft.com
    http://www.graphics-design.com
  23. This is what AnAndTech says about NoForce stability:

    Quote:
    <i><b><font color=blue>Apparently development of nForce boards has been quite rushed as we heard numerous times that designers started with essentially nothing about five weeks ago. Working samples were available to play with in private rooms at Computex; although we've been told performance and stability still need quite a bit of work, both in terms of motherboard and chipset designs. Fortunately, however, the word we're getting is that NVIDIA has been quite helpful in the design process and fully intends to have the boards be rock solid at the launch. . . .

    </i></b></font color=blue>


    Well to eat your <b>C :smile: :smile: kie</b> and have it too, gotta get <b>Rade :smile: n II</b>
  24. So far I've resisted the urge to leave Intel behind for my main work box, as stability is king on that one (CUSL 2 + 1Ghz PIII)

    However with the introduction of the nForce that *MAY* change, what interests me is the fact that you are going to have one driver set for most of the system, all I would need to do would be drop my SCSI Raid card into the system, hook up my Drive Array and thats it. no SB Live, No NIC, No Grafix Card, nice and simple.

    If someone releases a 1U Rack style mobo I think I would probably replace my main system, and 2 servers (and all in the same space as one of my current boxes)

    On the reference board in the article, there were three DIMM slots, am I correct in thinking 1 was for the grafix, and 2 for main memory?
  25. That occured to me as well. The outcome might be

    [fantasy]AMD and Intel merging into one giant company to combat the Nvidia hardware giant. Nvidia buys them out....[/fantasy]

    Think about it. The GForce3 is every bit (or more) complex then either the Athlon or the P4 (Northwood). I believe they could do it.

    <font color=blue>This is a Forum, not a playground. Treat it with Respect.</font color=blue>
  26. Crashman if you have to AMD atleast do me a favor get a SiS 735 mobo. Single chip solution is the way of the Future. SiS has North to south bridge at 1.0 gb. That 200mb fast then nvidia. That could be a big factor.

    Tom where is my SiS 735 vs. nforce review

    Nice Intel and AMD users get a Cookie.... :smile: Yummy :smile:
  27. As I see it, nForce has three main advantages over the other integrated mobos:
    -Higher memory bandwith (twice the other DDR chipsets, integrated or not) - in the "128" model;
    -High quality sound processor;
    -A much better performing graphic chip;

    All the other stuff already exists (NIC).

    Only the firs two, and really just the first is what can justify a high price premium regarding other chipsets (for an hardcore gamer).
    What I was really saying is why doesn't nVidia creates a chipset target at hardcore gamers:
    -a cheaper version of the nForce - without the GFX
    or
    -instead of the GFX use the silicon for an extra cache or something useful...

    As an example, one of the things I like in Abit is that they don't put a crappy never to be used onboard audio in mobos target at the overclocker.

    Not that the current nForce would be a bad solution. AFAIK it seems to be the best performing chipset available (... well, announced ;))
  28. As I see it, nForce has three main advantages over the other integrated mobos:
    -Higher memory bandwith (twice the other DDR chipsets, integrated or not) - in the "128" model;
    -High quality sound processor;
    -A much better performing graphic chip;

    All the other stuff already exists (NIC).

    Only the firs two, and really just the first, is what can justify a high price premium regarding other chipsets (for an hardcore gamer).
    What I was really saying is why doesn't nVidia create a chipset targeted at hardcore gamers:
    -a cheaper version of the nForce - without the GFX
    or
    -instead of the GFX use the silicon for an extra cache or something useful...

    As an example, one of the things I like in Abit is that they don't put a crappy never to be used onboard audio in mobos targeted at the overclocker.

    Not that the current nForce would be a bad solution. AFAIK it seems to be the best performing chipset available (... well, announced ;))
  29. How can nVidia give away their sound processor in the motherboard for "free"? R U guys sure it is the full sound processor, and not just a cut down version?

    Besides, I don't think their such a huge threat to Creative labs. CL have been around for ages, they've beaten off competition before, in a much more subtle way. Perhaps, the nVidia solution is much more of a competition than any of the other ones in the past, but I'm sure outside the "expert" community, more people are familiar with creative labs and Sound Blaster than nvidia.

    But, if a lot of oem's do start to use the nforce motherboards with integrated audio, then very few people will bother with upgrading to a Sound Blaster card.

    I'm quite happy with Creative labs. I've had their sound cards starting from the 8bit sound blaster 2.0. They've always served me well.


    <font color=red>"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
    Look on my works, ye Mighty, and dispair!"</font color=red>
  30. When you say "faster than PC1600" do you mean faster than 100mhz? I'm confused as to what you mean.

    -MP Jesse

    "Signatures Still Suck"
  31. Tom had PC1200 listed in his review. I'm fairly certain this was a typo and should have been PC2100. Never heard of PC1200 ram...

    The only thing that bothers me is that I bought a K7 Master, Gforce2 and Soundblaster two weeks ago and if I had known crush would have all this I would most certainly have waited for it!

    Wayne
  32. Once you've done the up-front design work, what's the variable cost of just stamping out chips with the extra functionality - it's just sand, isn't it? It's probably cheaper to mass-produce one or two variants of a chip than dozens that have various bits and pieces left out. Just don't use what you don't want.

    Re. Intel, if they're smart they will cut a deal with Nvidia ASAP to license the GF2/MX core for a future Intel chipset. Then Nvidia can focus on the AMD market and still get a piece of Intel's action without having to either design/manufacture an Intel version of the nForce, or having to compete head-to-head with chipzilla.

    <P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by dmcmahon on 06/05/01 01:33 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
  33. There is PC1600 and PC2100. When I say faster than PC1600, I mean PC2100. I didn't notice the PC1200. That must be intended to be PC2100.
  34. Quote:
    Intel, if they're smart they will cut a deal with Nvidia ASAP to license the GF2/MX core for a future Intel chipset


    Maybe not Intel has close ties to ATi not nvidia. I would a northwood sytle i810 with Radeon VE integrated.

    Nice Intel and AMD users get a Cookie.... :smile: Yummy :smile:
  35. Correction. SiS 735 has 1.2 GB/s between the bridges, not 1.0 GB/s as you claim.

    Leo
  36. Intel did not "go to bed" with Rambus, has no commitment to Rambus, and isn't beholden to anything Rambus wants. In fact, Intel has been developing alternative memory for some time now, if you look at the company history. Hell, Intel STARTED as a memory company.

    Intel is a very flexible engineering company and all the speculation about them being in "deep touble" is VERY premature. They have more close ties and exclusive contracts to OEM's than any other company and they'll be able to hold ground until the next breakthrough, guaranteed.
    Look at the business end of things before umping to conclusions about companies going under just because a competitor released one new product.
  37. Intel did not "go to bed" with Rambus, has no commitment to Rambus, and isn't beholden to anything Rambus wants. In fact, Intel has been developing alternative memory for some time now, if you look at the company history. Hell, Intel STARTED as a memory company.

    Intel is a very flexible engineering company and all the speculation about them being in "deep touble" is VERY premature. They have more close ties and exclusive contracts to OEM's than any other company and they'll be able to hold ground until the next breakthrough, guaranteed.
    Look at the business end of things before jumping to conclusions about companies going under just because a competitor released one new product.
  38. I would think that in order to provide mobo manufacturers with a chipset design just for hardcore gamers (audio minus graphics) would require more design time & money and just wouldn't pay off.

    Personally I have absolutely no problem with purchasing the mobo and just shutting off the graphics. It's not like the estimated price is anything crazy and you can then re-use the mobo in the future on a lesser machine without having to buy a graphics card.
  39. Anyone know if the nFORCE has built-in SoundBlaster compatibility? Windows has been around for a long time but I still have ten DOS wargames that require SoundBlaster. I'm not ready to give up on them simply because there's nothing available that can replace them.
  40. I believe the NForce chipset has a good chance to live up to the expectations. Because of the XBox project, they have been able to develop and test their chipset with Microsoft funding, and are now trying to essentially duplicate what they developed for the Xbox in the PC.

    Because they've already developed a working solution for the Xbox, as Tom said in his article, the biggest potential issue will most likely be compatibility with a variety of add-in cards from various manufacturers. With so much functionality integrated on-board however, the need for many of the add in boards that are required for most current PC configurations will be eliminated. Factor out a modem/networking board and sound card and it will be difficult to find uses for those PCI slots. Most of the people that would need to upgrade their videocard from the MX integrated video would be upgrading to a faster NVidia card anyway, and I expect that NVidia's chipset will not have any compatibility problems with their own graphics cards.

    NVidia is taking a big step in deviating from their graphics-only business, a business in which they hold a very comfortable lead. This is not a desperation move they are forced to make to keep their company alive. I could be totally off base here, but I don't think a company with the financial stability NVidia currently enjoys would make a move like this unless they are nearly 100% certain of their success. It would not surprise me at all to hear NVidia already had done extensive testing for compatibility and reliability problems etc. before making any public announcement of the chipset. NVidia will probably retain tight control over the board designs just like it has done with it's GeForce cards to eliminate board-specific problems.

    When I look at all the integrated functionality of this chipset, what really strikes me about it is it's potential for the mobile market. I really think we could see the performance line between desktop and laptop computers become a little less clear if this chipset is successful. This chipset could also start a new trend of smaller PCs. NVidia's reference board shows that the chipset can be integrated into a small board design, and without the need for add-in cards, we could see some very compact PC designs - maybe even close to console size.

    I really think this chipset has potential, and I'm looking forward to seeing the reviews for it when the boards get here in the Fall.
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