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Could Verizon Wirless Be Any More Arrogant?

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Anonymous
November 13, 2004 5:45:09 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

I'm so pissed off right now I could spit!

In June of 2002, I made the HUGE mistake of signing up with VZW on a
two-year contract. I got three phones at that time.

In December of last year, I dropped two of those lines because I
bought an Acura TL which has a built-in Bluetooth Hands-Free Link. I
wanted to use this feature, but at the time Verizon did not offer any
Bluetooth phones. So I bit the bullet, paid the early termination
fees, and dropped two of my 3 phone lines.

Unbeknownst to me at the time, when I dropped the two lines, the clerk
at the VZW store also changed my rate plan from a family plan to a
single-line plan. VZW claims this change extended my contract for an
additional year from the date of the change. Of course, the clerk in
the store never said anything about it.

Just recently I ported the phone number from the final line to another
carrier. Since my newly-extended contract doesn't expire until next
month, greedy rapacious VZW charged me a $175 early termination fee,
which they smugly refuse to remove or even to pro-rate. The
"supervisor" arrogantly told me that even if I cancelled two hours
before the end of my contract that VZW would charge the entire fee.
Clearly all Verizon cares about is short-term, unearned profit, even
at the cost of a permanent loss of customer goodwill. So be it -
that's your business decision, Verizon - I'm sure you know what you're
doing.

So enjoy the $175, Verizon Wireless - that's the last of my money that
you will EVER see. I might have considered switching back if, at some
future date, VZW managed to come out with a usable Bluetooth phone,
but any chance of that happenening has been completely eradicated.

Here's hoping that none of you have your contract "extended" without
your knowledge or consent.

--
"I believe that forgiving [terrorists] is God's function.
Our job is to arrange the meeting."
- Norman Schwartzkopf
Anonymous
November 13, 2004 5:52:53 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

Another worthy who shot himself in the foot - didn't read the contract......

When the plan was changed, you got a copy on the "new" plan - confirmation -
in the mail. That's what they do. Of course, you will deny it.....fact is
that nobody has his/her contract extended without their knowledge or
consent.....

Your claims are as bogus as your nickname's reference to "Aztlan" is
bogus.......

Verizon isn't arrogant, you were/are stupid.....:) 

PC

"Scott en Aztlán" <slothkills@NOyahooSPAM.com> wrote in message
news:aj2dp0trkvure626f8mbahb2mipi1ib4g8@4ax.com...
| I'm so pissed off right now I could spit!
|
| In June of 2002, I made the HUGE mistake of signing up with VZW on a
| two-year contract. I got three phones at that time.
|
| In December of last year, I dropped two of those lines because I
| bought an Acura TL which has a built-in Bluetooth Hands-Free Link. I
| wanted to use this feature, but at the time Verizon did not offer any
| Bluetooth phones. So I bit the bullet, paid the early termination
| fees, and dropped two of my 3 phone lines.
|
| Unbeknownst to me at the time, when I dropped the two lines, the clerk
| at the VZW store also changed my rate plan from a family plan to a
| single-line plan. VZW claims this change extended my contract for an
| additional year from the date of the change. Of course, the clerk in
| the store never said anything about it.
|
| Just recently I ported the phone number from the final line to another
| carrier. Since my newly-extended contract doesn't expire until next
| month, greedy rapacious VZW charged me a $175 early termination fee,
| which they smugly refuse to remove or even to pro-rate. The
| "supervisor" arrogantly told me that even if I cancelled two hours
| before the end of my contract that VZW would charge the entire fee.
| Clearly all Verizon cares about is short-term, unearned profit, even
| at the cost of a permanent loss of customer goodwill. So be it -
| that's your business decision, Verizon - I'm sure you know what you're
| doing.
|
| So enjoy the $175, Verizon Wireless - that's the last of my money that
| you will EVER see. I might have considered switching back if, at some
| future date, VZW managed to come out with a usable Bluetooth phone,
| but any chance of that happenening has been completely eradicated.
|
| Here's hoping that none of you have your contract "extended" without
| your knowledge or consent.
|
| --
| "I believe that forgiving [terrorists] is God's function.
| Our job is to arrange the meeting."
| - Norman Schwartzkopf
Anonymous
November 13, 2004 6:32:55 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 14:52:53 -0800, "Proconsul" <nospam@nospam.org>
wrote:

>Another worthy who shot himself in the foot - didn't read the contract......

Did you even read what I wrote, you top-posting dweeb?

The contact I read (and signed) ended 6 months ago. They extended it
without telling me. There was no new contact to read.

>When the plan was changed, you got a copy on the "new" plan - confirmation -
>in the mail.

Prove it. I never saw anything of the sort.

--
Friends don't let friends shop at Best Buy.
Related resources
Anonymous
November 13, 2004 6:40:17 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

This top posting dweeb recognizes an ignorant jerk with an attitude when he
sees one......:) 

Your claim is bogus - had your contract expired, you wouldn't have had to
pay an early termination fee.....:) 

Convicted yourself out of your own mouth - did YOU read what you
wrote........:) 

PC

"Scott en Aztlán" <slothkills@NOyahooSPAM.com> wrote in message
news:j76dp0h3dlut84cdppdl3pchtnlih02nqm@4ax.com...
| On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 14:52:53 -0800, "Proconsul" <nospam@nospam.org>
| wrote:
|
| >Another worthy who shot himself in the foot - didn't read the
contract......
|
| Did you even read what I wrote, you top-posting dweeb?
|
| The contact I read (and signed) ended 6 months ago. They extended it
| without telling me. There was no new contact to read.
|
| >When the plan was changed, you got a copy on the "new" plan -
confirmation -
| >in the mail.
|
| Prove it. I never saw anything of the sort.
|
| --
| Friends don't let friends shop at Best Buy.
Anonymous
November 13, 2004 7:29:42 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

Anyone who switches carriers strictly because of a piece of equipment, is an idiot.


"Scott en Aztlán" <slothkills@NOyahooSPAM.com> wrote in message news:aj2dp0trkvure626f8mbahb2mipi1ib4g8@4ax.com...
>
> In December of last year, I dropped two of those lines because I
> bought an Acura TL which has a built-in Bluetooth Hands-Free Link. I
> wanted to use this feature, but at the time Verizon did not offer any
> Bluetooth phones.
Anonymous
November 13, 2004 8:43:54 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

I understand your frustration with this issue. Technically speaking you
switched
the remaining line from a family plan to an individual plan which is a new
plan
as you noted in your message.

This also hurts the other way. If you have an individual line, add a family
member, both contract dates get extended. The primary line is not part
of a family plan, and both it and 2nd line get extended.

This particular practice, while common, is not explained in the contract
and I don't think it's obvious. One of the things I do to combat this
is I've taken to *always* asking "will this change effect any contract
length?" while I do it. At least then I know what I'm getting into.

The final tidbit is that after you have left a carrier, and been billed the
ETF (early termination fee), you have no leverage with them whatsoever. They
assume you're
not coming back. I've had similar issues with AT&T in the past, and after
I left, contesting the ETF was completely useless.

On the other hand, if they believe they can save an account, you might
get them to do something nice for you, but that doesn't include waiving the
ETF.

Sorry to hear about your experience. It's one of those frustrating things
about cellular. All I can say is that I doubt this problem is unique to
Verizon. Seems to be an industry-wide practice-- just not a good one.

-Dan

--
Eugene, Oregon -- Pacific Northwest
http://cell.uoregon.edu
November 13, 2004 9:33:33 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

"Proconsul" <nospam@nospam.org> wrote in message
news:9fwld.99997$kz3.16942@fed1read02...
> Another worthy who shot himself in the foot - didn't read the
> contract......
>
> When the plan was changed, you got a copy on the "new" plan -
> confirmation -
> in the mail. That's what they do. Of course, you will deny it.....fact is
> that nobody has his/her contract extended without their knowledge or
> consent.....
>
> Your claims are as bogus as your nickname's reference to "Aztlan" is
> bogus.......
>
> Verizon isn't arrogant, you were/are stupid.....:) 


Even if/when he did get the confirmation notice, it was too late. The
notice just spells out the details of the new plan; it doesn't ask for your
approval of the new plan. He was screwed as soon as soon as he dropped the
two lines.
Anonymous
November 13, 2004 9:33:34 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

"Nonymous" <noham@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:KrSdnbh8raVYBAvcRVn-gw@giganews.com...
|| | > Your claims are as bogus as your nickname's reference to "Aztlan" is
| > bogus.......
| >
| > Verizon isn't arrogant, you were/are stupid.....:) 
|
|
| Even if/when he did get the confirmation notice, it was too late. The
| notice just spells out the details of the new plan; it doesn't ask for
your
| approval of the new plan. He was screwed as soon as soon as he dropped
the
| two lines.

He screwed himself when he didn't read the contract - and, it's never "too
late".....you work with VZW without the shrieking attitude and reason
prevails....always has for me....!

PC
Anonymous
November 13, 2004 9:46:08 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

Scott en Aztlán wrote:

> So enjoy the $175, Verizon Wireless - that's the last of my money that
> you will EVER see. I might have considered switching back if, at some
> future date, VZW managed to come out with a usable Bluetooth phone,
> but any chance of that happenening has been completely eradicated.

If this was really done without your knowledge or consent, you should not let
it sit, you should call them on it.

Verizon's ads touting the best nationwide network is accurate in many areas of
the country, but they have some issues. I have not experienced your issue, but
my brother-in-law did. He managed to convince them to cancel the $175 ETF as he
did cancel on the contract end date (but did so a couple hours before the
contract actually ended) - I can't recall whether he did so through Customer
Care or a retail store rep. (I left Verizon for other reasons.)

> Here's hoping that none of you have your contract "extended" without
> your knowledge or consent.

Here's hoping that if this ever happens to anyone reading this, they realize
that a contract isn't legally binding unless both parties consent to the terms,
which can't happen if a VZW employee extends your contract on the sly, behind
your back.


--
JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JustThe.net/
Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) / sjsobol@JustThe.net
PGP Key available from your friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED)
Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three kids.
Anonymous
November 13, 2004 9:52:13 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

Proconsul wrote:
> Another worthy who shot himself in the foot - didn't read the contract......

There is no reason that cancelling and paying an early termination fee on the
two lines should extend the contract on another line that is not being changed.
IN FACT... I purchased a second phone in June 03 just before moving out here to
Southern California. Put it on a share plan with my primary phone, and used it
for work. At the end of contract in June 04, since I didn't need the second
phone anymore, I dropped it, and the main phone reverted back to a standard
plan. Gee whiz, guess what, my contract didn't get extended. VZW even honored
my original Ohio contract end dates when they moved the account from Ohio to
California. So there *is no reason* Scott should have been charged. Period.

> Verizon isn't arrogant, you were/are stupid.....:) 

Stop being an ass. I did the exact same thing he did and my contract did not
get extended. Something was messed up in the switchover of his remaining line.
I will defend Verizon Wireless when they deserve to be defended... but this was
their screwup, plain and simple.

--
JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JustThe.net/
Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) / sjsobol@JustThe.net
PGP Key available from your friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED)
Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three kids.
Anonymous
November 13, 2004 9:52:37 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

Proconsul wrote:

> He screwed himself when he didn't read the contract

No, actually he didn't.

--
JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JustThe.net/
Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) / sjsobol@JustThe.net
PGP Key available from your friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED)
Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three kids.
Anonymous
November 13, 2004 10:07:43 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

Proconsul wrote:
> This top posting dweeb recognizes an ignorant jerk with an attitude when he
> sees one......:) 

Looking in the mirror, eh?

I'll be the first to say that I will agree with your boilerplate "read the
contract, moron" reply *when it is warranted.* And indeed, sometimes it is.
There are too many people that just ass-u-me what the terms of their cellular
contracts are, without actually reading the contract.

> Your claim is bogus - had your contract expired, you wouldn't have had to
> pay an early termination fee.....:) 

The contract never should have been extended. I did the same thing and my
contract was not extended on the phone that I kept.

Think about it. (I know you prefer to post your boilerplate reply before
actually analyzing the original post, but try it, you might find the process
enlightening.)

I was a Verzion customer for four years, and I have made myself familiar with
all of the plans they offered during that time because I am always eager to
make sure I'm on the plan that's best for me.

Whether the main plan is Logal DigitalChoice, AC, whatever - the plan details
remain the same when you add a phone. $59.99 America's Choice with X hundred
mintues is still $59.99 America's Choice with X hundred minutes when you add a
line. You're just suddenly paying $20/extra to share minutes, and you have a
separate contract for the new phone. That's it.

Assuming Scott didn't take any promotions, and I've read him enough in
a.c.verizon to know that he'd say so if he did, *nothing* changed with the
original plan.

--
JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JustThe.net/
Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) / sjsobol@JustThe.net
PGP Key available from your friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED)
Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three kids.
Anonymous
November 13, 2004 10:10:44 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

Steve Sobol wrote:
> Proconsul wrote:
>> Another worthy who shot himself in the foot - didn't read the
>> contract......
>
> There is no reason that cancelling and paying an early termination
> fee on the two lines should extend the contract on another line that
> is not being changed. IN FACT... I purchased a second phone in June
> 03 just before moving out here to Southern California. Put it on a
> share plan with my primary phone, and used it for work. At the end of
> contract in June 04, since I didn't need the second phone anymore, I
> dropped it, and the main phone reverted back to a standard plan. Gee
> whiz, guess what, my contract didn't get extended. VZW even honored
> my original Ohio contract end dates when they moved the account from
> Ohio to California. So there *is no reason* Scott should have been
> charged. Period.
>> Verizon isn't arrogant, you were/are stupid.....:) 
>
> Stop being an ass. I did the exact same thing he did and my contract
> did not get extended. Something was messed up in the switchover of
> his remaining line. I will defend Verizon Wireless when they deserve
> to be defended... but this was their screwup, plain and simple.

Ummm Steve.. did you cancel the contract and pay an ETF, or just drop two
lines?
By your own words... "At the end of contract in June 04,"... hey.. guess
what, your contract was over and you were on month 2 month..You had already
fulfilled the obligation to keep the contract or pay an etf for the
subsidized phones.
Anonymous
November 13, 2004 10:15:17 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

Dan Albrich wrote:
> I understand your frustration with this issue. Technically speaking you
> switched
> the remaining line from a family plan to an individual plan which is a new
> plan
> as you noted in your message.
>
> This also hurts the other way. If you have an individual line, add a family
> member, both contract dates get extended. The primary line is not part
> of a family plan, and both it and 2nd line get extended.

Huh? That didn't happen to me. I had to sign a contract on my second line, of
course, but the addition DID NOT extend my primary line's contract.

--
JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JustThe.net/
Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) / sjsobol@JustThe.net
PGP Key available from your friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED)
Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three kids.
Anonymous
November 13, 2004 10:37:34 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

Steve Sobol wrote:
> Dan Albrich wrote:
>> I understand your frustration with this issue. Technically speaking
>> you switched
>> the remaining line from a family plan to an individual plan which is
>> a new plan
>> as you noted in your message.
>>
>> This also hurts the other way. If you have an individual line, add
>> a family member, both contract dates get extended. The primary line
>> is not part of a family plan, and both it and 2nd line get extended.
>
> Huh? That didn't happen to me. I had to sign a contract on my second
> line, of course, but the addition DID NOT extend my primary line's
> contract.

Things have changed since you were with Verizon.. They have unlimited in
network now for *all* lines, it used to just be one line 2 another *or* only
one line to any verizon customer.
Anonymous
November 13, 2004 10:49:07 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

"Steve Sobol" <sjsobol@JustThe.net> wrote in message
news:cn6h83$7ff$1@ratbert.glorb.com...
| Proconsul wrote:
| > Another worthy who shot himself in the foot - didn't read the
contract......
|
| There is no reason that cancelling and paying an early termination fee on
the
| two lines should extend the contract on another line that is not being
changed.
| IN FACT... I purchased a second phone in June 03 just before moving out
here to
| Southern California. Put it on a share plan with my primary phone, and
used it
| for work. At the end of contract in June 04, since I didn't need the
second
| phone anymore, I dropped it, and the main phone reverted back to a
standard
| plan. Gee whiz, guess what, my contract didn't get extended. VZW even
honored
| my original Ohio contract end dates when they moved the account from Ohio
to
| California. So there *is no reason* Scott should have been charged.
Period.
|
| > Verizon isn't arrogant, you were/are stupid.....:) 
|
| Stop being an ass. I did the exact same thing he did and my contract did
not
| get extended. Something was messed up in the switchover of his remaining
line.
| I will defend Verizon Wireless when they deserve to be defended... but
this was
| their screwup, plain and simple.

Stop acting like a jerk....

You don't know what happened beyonhd the "testimony" of an arrogant shrieker
whose story doesn't square with the experience of most people....

This was HIS screwup, as are most reported herein, "plain and simple".....

You can skip the snide comments in the replies to those whose sole crime is
to fail to agree with you and the OP that VZW is an ogre of a company
populated exclusively by thieving idiots.....it's just not so...! You have a
habit of being particularly unpleasant whenever you get a chance to take a
shot at me - fire away, it doesn't improve YOUR view or that of the
OP....who was, and is, clearly just "venting"....!

In this case, as is usually the case, albeit NOT in your case with VZW, most
wounds in life ARE self-inflicted....

PC
Anonymous
November 13, 2004 10:56:48 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

"Steve Sobol" <sjsobol@JustThe.net> wrote in message
news:cn6i55$89l$1@ratbert.glorb.com...
| Proconsul wrote:
| > This top posting dweeb recognizes an ignorant jerk with an attitude when
he
| > sees one......:) 
|
| Looking in the mirror, eh?
|
| I'll be the first to say that I will agree with your boilerplate "read the
| contract, moron" reply *when it is warranted.* And indeed, sometimes it
is.
| There are too many people that just ass-u-me what the terms of their
cellular
| contracts are, without actually reading the contract.
|
| > Your claim is bogus - had your contract expired, you wouldn't have had
to
| > pay an early termination fee.....:) 
|
| The contract never should have been extended. I did the same thing and my
| contract was not extended on the phone that I kept.

I don't accept the assertion that it wass extended without his knowledge. In
MY experience, over many years and many changes, is that VZW doesn't do
that - even IF the CSR fails to tell you, you are notified by mail with a
confirming copy of the new contract. I have always been so notified AND the
CSR has never failed to explain what he/she was doing....!

It appears your experience is the same - why support the OP who is so
clearly wrong in his assertions?

I think you're just interested in "taking shots".....fire away!....:) 

| Think about it. (I know you prefer to post your boilerplate reply before
| actually analyzing the original post, but try it, you might find the
process
| enlightening.)

I thought about it - for the record, your boilerplate lacks the incisive
analysis you claim.....

| I was a Verzion customer for four years, and I have made myself familiar
with
| all of the plans they offered during that time because I am always eager
to
| make sure I'm on the plan that's best for me.

I've been a VZW customer for a lot longer, have used a number of ther plans
and found them to be always honest, upright, thorough and pleasant to deal
with. Reading here, it's clear that there are a few who aren't working with
the same set of principles......:) 

| Whether the main plan is Logal DigitalChoice, AC, whatever - the plan
details
| remain the same when you add a phone. $59.99 America's Choice with X
hundred
| mintues is still $59.99 America's Choice with X hundred minutes when you
add a
| line. You're just suddenly paying $20/extra to share minutes, and you have
a
| separate contract for the new phone. That's it.

Yup, that would be "it" - that's why the OP's assertions don't hold
water....he paid too many ETFs, assuming that he did pay twice....

PC
Anonymous
November 13, 2004 11:22:13 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

"Proconsul"
| This top posting dweeb recognizes an ignorant jerk with an attitude when
he
| sees one......:) 
|
| Your claim is bogus - had your contract expired, you wouldn't have had to
| pay an early termination fee.....:) 
|
| Convicted yourself out of your own mouth - did YOU read what you
| wrote........:) 
|
| PC

I've had ongoing problems with VZN over CS and sales department 'changes' in
my contract, in each and every case the changes were initiated by VZN with
no action on my part except to inquire about options.
Anonymous
November 14, 2004 1:03:39 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

Peter Pan wrote:

> Ummm Steve.. did you cancel the contract and pay an ETF, or just drop two
> lines?

OK, here's the deal. Let me clarify my situation so everyone understands where
I am coming from.

> By your own words... "At the end of contract in June 04,"... hey.. guess
> what, your contract was over and you were on month 2 month..You had already
> fulfilled the obligation to keep the contract or pay an etf for the
> subsidized phones.


The primary line I had from September 2000 through August 2004. I got a free
phone in 2002 and committed to a new two-year contract in August 2002. I added
the second line in June 2003 on a one-year contract, paid $20/month to share
mintues between the phones, and cancelled the second line at contract end in
June of 2004. I was still under my two-year commitment on the initial line
until August, but when I cancelled my second line, it did not extend my
contract on the primary line.

To be 100% crystal clear: I did NOT purchase the phones at the same time.

--
JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JustThe.net/
Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) / sjsobol@JustThe.net
PGP Key available from your friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED)
Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three kids.
Anonymous
November 14, 2004 1:35:59 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

Proconsul wrote:

> I don't accept the assertion that it wass extended without his knowledge. In
> MY experience, over many years and many changes, is that VZW doesn't do
> that - even IF the CSR fails to tell you, you are notified by mail with a
> confirming copy of the new contract.

I won't dispute that. I don't believe it's wrong, for the most part... except
that it could have been done initially, intentionally or accidentally, without
his knowledge. As others have said, sure, he'd get something in the mail. It
takes a while to get to you, however, and by the time you get it, you're
already under the new contract. Can we at least agree on that?

I don't think this was an intentional act. I think it was a mistake. I think
the refusal of VZW to waive the ETF is still wrong and could easily be
contested in court.

> I thought about it - for the record, your boilerplate lacks the incisive
> analysis you claim.....

I don't do boilerplate. I actually read and respond to each individual post
separately. Nice try, but... rather weak.

> | mintues is still $59.99 America's Choice with X hundred minutes when you
> add a
> | line. You're just suddenly paying $20/extra to share minutes, and you have
> a
> | separate contract for the new phone. That's it.
>
> Yup, that would be "it" - that's why the OP's assertions don't hold
> water....he paid too many ETFs, assuming that he did pay twice....

He cancelled two lines early. How do you figure he paid too many ETFs if he
only paid two? There were three contracts. And again, his problem weren't with
the ETFs on the two lines he cancelled initially. He already knew he was going
to owe both ETFs.

--
JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JustThe.net/
Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) / sjsobol@JustThe.net
PGP Key available from your friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED)
Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three kids.
Anonymous
November 14, 2004 1:40:13 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

Peter Pan wrote:

> Things have changed since you were with Verizon.. They have unlimited in
> network now for *all* lines, it used to just be one line 2 another *or* only
> one line to any verizon customer.

Yes. I know. Irrelevant. (Unless you know something that I don't about how VZW
now works their contracts, in which case I'd like you to tell me what I'm missing.)

--
JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JustThe.net/
Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) / sjsobol@JustThe.net
PGP Key available from your friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED)
Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three kids.
Anonymous
November 14, 2004 1:52:49 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 17:43:54 -0800, "Dan Albrich"
<junkmail@shaney.uoregon.edui> wrote:

>Sorry to hear about your experience. It's one of those frustrating things
>about cellular. All I can say is that I doubt this problem is unique to
>Verizon. Seems to be an industry-wide practice-- just not a good one.

The bright side to this story is that Cingular was more than happy to
sign me up month-to-month from the get-go - unlike T-Mobile, who
wanted a 1-year contract on ANY new service activation, even if I was
not getting any subsidized equipment. So at least I'll never have to
worry about early violation fees ever again. :) 

--
Friends don't let friends shop at Best Buy.
Anonymous
November 14, 2004 2:43:08 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 14:45:09 -0800, Scott en Aztlán
<slothkills@NOyahooSPAM.com> wrote:

>
>Unbeknownst to me at the time, when I dropped the two lines, the clerk
>at the VZW store also changed my rate plan from a family plan to a
>single-line plan. VZW claims this change extended my contract for an
>additional year from the date of the change. Of course, the clerk in
>the store never said anything about it.


Didn't it occur to you that a "family plan" involves multiple users,
with a package discount? If you started with three lines, then
terminated two of them, what multiple users did you suppose would be
used to maintain the family plan discount?

If you can prove (with your signed contract) that you authorized no
changes to your contract, you have a case.

Otherwise, take your lumps like a man.

I'd bet dollars to donuts that you decided to show the supervisor
who's the boss, and you found it out the hard way.

I've found that, when I've made a stupid mistake, admitting it up
front, and asking them if there is any latitude at all that could help
ease the situation, more often than not we find a compromise that lets
both sides win.
Anonymous
November 14, 2004 2:43:09 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

Bob Ward wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 14:45:09 -0800, Scott en Aztlán
> <slothkills@NOyahooSPAM.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Unbeknownst to me at the time, when I dropped the two lines, the
>> clerk at the VZW store also changed my rate plan from a family plan
>> to a single-line plan. VZW claims this change extended my contract
>> for an additional year from the date of the change. Of course, the
>> clerk in the store never said anything about it.
>
>
> Didn't it occur to you that a "family plan" involves multiple users,
> with a package discount? If you started with three lines, then
> terminated two of them, what multiple users did you suppose would be
> used to maintain the family plan discount?
>
> If you can prove (with your signed contract) that you authorized no
> changes to your contract, you have a case.
>
> Otherwise, take your lumps like a man.
>
> I'd bet dollars to donuts that you decided to show the supervisor
> who's the boss, and you found it out the hard way.
>
> I've found that, when I've made a stupid mistake, admitting it up
> front, and asking them if there is any latitude at all that could help
> ease the situation, more often than not we find a compromise that lets
> both sides win.

I don't understand why there is any question whatsover.. You paid an ETF fee
right? You didn't pay it three times, once for each line, just once for all
lines. Thats an early termination of a CONTRACT! When you terminated the OLD
contract, you started a new one with the one phone you had left. Your one
phone went on a new contract, starting one on the old contract termination
data, and since you had a subsidized phone, it was subject to ETF on the new
contract too.
Anonymous
November 14, 2004 2:43:10 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

Peter Pan wrote:

> I don't understand why there is any question whatsover.. You paid an ETF fee
> right? You didn't pay it three times, once for each line, just once for all
> lines. Thats an early termination of a CONTRACT! When you terminated the OLD
> contract, you started a new one with the one phone you had left.

Switching from family share to single-line doesn't extend your VZW contract - I
speak from experience.

--
JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JustThe.net/
Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) / sjsobol@JustThe.net
PGP Key available from your friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED)
Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three kids.
Anonymous
November 14, 2004 2:43:11 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

Steve Sobol wrote:
> Peter Pan wrote:
>
>> I don't understand why there is any question whatsover.. You paid an
>> ETF fee right? You didn't pay it three times, once for each line,
>> just once for all lines. Thats an early termination of a CONTRACT!
>> When you terminated the OLD contract, you started a new one with the
>> one phone you had left.
>
> Switching from family share to single-line doesn't extend your VZW
> contract - I speak from experience.

As I stated, under the circumstances posted, it DOES.. Your experience comes
from a contract that had already run to the end, and was on M2M.. He
terminated during the contract period and paid the ETF. Notice, he *PAID*
the etf... he didn't just change the plan, drop two lines, and keep the same
contract... he totally terminated the contract early, and started a new one.
(ergo a new start date)
Anonymous
November 14, 2004 2:43:11 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 19:11:49 -0800, Steve Sobol <sjsobol@JustThe.net>
wrote:

>Switching from family share to single-line doesn't extend your VZW contract - I
>speak from experience.

At least it SHOULDN'T... Maybe the clerk hit the wrong key or
something?

But try getting a Verizon customer serve-less rep to understand
that...

--
Friends don't let friends shop at Best Buy.
November 14, 2004 3:35:22 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

"Peter Pan" <Marcs1102NOSPAM@HotmailNOSPAM.com> wrote in
news:2vnlbtF2mcl3uU1@uni-berlin.de:

> I don't understand why there is any question whatsover.. You paid an ETF
> fee right? You didn't pay it three times, once for each line, just once
> for all lines. Thats an early termination of a CONTRACT! When you

Scott very clearly said he paid an ETF on TWO of the THREE lines.

Scott is now attempting to recover from the heart attack resulting from
seeing me actually agree with him. He's both right and wrong on this,
actually. (One questions why there were ETFs on each individual phone in a
group plan, there usually aren't, but that's not the topic at
hand...finding out the slimeballs HAVE started doing it would not surprise
me in the least).

He's right in the sense that cellular companies DO, in fact, extend
contracts with little to no authorization or notice. Sprint PCS does it
constantly, even the most minor change will usually result in an
extention/renewal of your contract, and Sprint's most common defense is
that the price you were quoted was entirely dependant on a contract, so
even if you never explicitly agreed to it, when you got your bill and paid
it, you agreed to it anyway. Having been told this or not is, to them,
irrelevant.

He's wrong in assuming Verizon will ever come out with a usable bluetooth
phone. They purposely disable it on the few they carry. Feel no regret at
leaving them in the dust, they certainly don't. Churn is a fact of life in
the cellular industry, so when you are on the phone with Verizon saying
"I'll NEVER be your customer again! I'm going to Sprint!", they frankly
don't care, because at that exact moment, someone is on the phone with
Sprint saying "I'll NEVER be your customer again! I'm going to Verizon!"

He's also wrong in assuming he has to just roll over and pay the fee. If
he wants, he can cut the check and it will be over. Or, he can file form
475 with the FCC and fight it.

Of course, his past claims of hourly income mean he's already wasted more
than the disputed $175 just whining about it, so actually doing something
about it seems doubtful at best.

--
Minister of All Things Digital & Electronic, and Holder of Past Knowledge
stile99@email.com. Cabal# 24601-fnord | Sleep is irrelevant.
I speak for no one but myself, and |Caffeine will be assimilated.
no one else speaks for me. O- | Decaf is futile.
Anonymous
November 14, 2004 3:35:23 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

Howard wrote:
> "Peter Pan" <Marcs1102NOSPAM@HotmailNOSPAM.com> wrote in
> news:2vnlbtF2mcl3uU1@uni-berlin.de:
>
>> I don't understand why there is any question whatsover.. You paid an
>> ETF fee right? You didn't pay it three times, once for each line,
>> just once for all lines. Thats an early termination of a CONTRACT!
>> When you
>
> Scott very clearly said he paid an ETF on TWO of the THREE lines.
>

Sorry. that is *NOT* possible.. You either pay an ETF or not for the ENTIRE
contract. not for part of it. A new contract *MUST* be issued for the
existing line and keep the number.
Anonymous
November 14, 2004 3:35:23 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

Howard wrote:

> He's right in the sense that cellular companies DO, in fact, extend
> contracts with little to no authorization or notice. Sprint PCS does it
> constantly, even the most minor change will usually result in an
> extention/renewal of your contract, and Sprint's most common defense is
> that the price you were quoted was entirely dependant on a contract, so
> even if you never explicitly agreed to it, when you got your bill and paid
> it, you agreed to it anyway. Having been told this or not is, to them,
> irrelevant.

Whoa. Sprint makes it very clear that any plan change after the first three
months will extend your contract. They did when I activated my second line with
them this past summer (after I fired Verizon and ported my number over). I
don't like the policy, but Sprint works better for me than Verizon does in this
area, and they cost a little less money, so I live with it.

The CSRs who don't tell you are either idiots or poorly trained. (Granted,
Sprint does have a lot of CSRs working for them that fit this description. :) 

> Of course, his past claims of hourly income mean he's already wasted more
> than the disputed $175 just whining about it, so actually doing something
> about it seems doubtful at best.

I wouldn't try to get back more than the $175. I *would* try to get them to
credit the $175, though.



--
JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JustThe.net/
Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) / sjsobol@JustThe.net
PGP Key available from your friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED)
Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three kids.
Anonymous
November 14, 2004 3:35:24 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

Peter Pan wrote:
> Howard wrote:
>
>>"Peter Pan" <Marcs1102NOSPAM@HotmailNOSPAM.com> wrote in
>>news:2vnlbtF2mcl3uU1@uni-berlin.de:
>>
>>
>>>I don't understand why there is any question whatsover.. You paid an
>>>ETF fee right? You didn't pay it three times, once for each line,
>>>just once for all lines. Thats an early termination of a CONTRACT!
>>>When you
>>
>>Scott very clearly said he paid an ETF on TWO of the THREE lines.
>>
>
>
> Sorry. that is *NOT* possible

Sorry, I've done it.

--
JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JustThe.net/
Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) / sjsobol@JustThe.net
PGP Key available from your friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED)
Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three kids.
Anonymous
November 14, 2004 3:35:24 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 19:02:16 -0800, "Peter Pan"
<Marcs1102NOSPAM@HotmailNOSPAM.com> wrote:

>Howard wrote:
>> "Peter Pan" <Marcs1102NOSPAM@HotmailNOSPAM.com> wrote in
>> news:2vnlbtF2mcl3uU1@uni-berlin.de:
>>
>>> I don't understand why there is any question whatsover.. You paid an
>>> ETF fee right? You didn't pay it three times, once for each line,
>>> just once for all lines. Thats an early termination of a CONTRACT!
>>> When you
>>
>> Scott very clearly said he paid an ETF on TWO of the THREE lines.
>
>Sorry. that is *NOT* possible..

I guess you need to take that up with VZW, because that is precisely
what happened. They charged me ETFs for the wo lines I dropped, but
not for the third line I kept.

>You either pay an ETF or not for the ENTIRE
>contract. not for part of it. A new contract *MUST* be issued for the
>existing line and keep the number.

Verizon seems to disagree with your assessment. ;) 

--
Friends don't let friends shop at Best Buy.
Anonymous
November 14, 2004 4:30:38 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 14:45:09 -0800 Scott en Aztlán
<slothkills@NOyahooSPAM.com> wrote:

:>I'm so pissed off right now I could spit!

:>In June of 2002, I made the HUGE mistake of signing up with VZW on a
:>two-year contract. I got three phones at that time.

You got free (reduced price?) phones and a discount rate for signing up for
two years.

You could have signed up for one year or for monthly service.

You chose to sign up for two years and benefited from it.

:>In December of last year, I dropped two of those lines because I
:>bought an Acura TL which has a built-in Bluetooth Hands-Free Link. I
:>wanted to use this feature, but at the time Verizon did not offer any
:>Bluetooth phones. So I bit the bullet, paid the early termination
:>fees, and dropped two of my 3 phone lines.

:>Unbeknownst to me at the time, when I dropped the two lines, the clerk
:>at the VZW store also changed my rate plan from a family plan to a
:>single-line plan. VZW claims this change extended my contract for an
:>additional year from the date of the change. Of course, the clerk in
:>the store never said anything about it.

Do you normally sign things without reading them?

:>Just recently I ported the phone number from the final line to another
:>carrier. Since my newly-extended contract doesn't expire until next
:>month, greedy rapacious VZW charged me a $175 early termination fee,
:>which they smugly refuse to remove or even to pro-rate. The
:>"supervisor" arrogantly told me that even if I cancelled two hours
:>before the end of my contract that VZW would charge the entire fee.
:>Clearly all Verizon cares about is short-term, unearned profit, even
:>at the cost of a permanent loss of customer goodwill. So be it -
:>that's your business decision, Verizon - I'm sure you know what you're
:>doing.

1. So why not keep it another month?

2. I wonder if that is true - can the liquidated damages be more than the time
on the contract? Might be worth paying just the final month fee and go to
court about it.

:>So enjoy the $175, Verizon Wireless - that's the last of my money that
:>you will EVER see. I might have considered switching back if, at some
:>future date, VZW managed to come out with a usable Bluetooth phone,
:>but any chance of that happenening has been completely eradicated.

Who are you fooling?

:>Here's hoping that none of you have your contract "extended" without
:>your knowledge or consent.

Do you normally sign things without reading them?

--
Binyamin Dissen <bdissen@dissensoftware.com>
http://www.dissensoftware.com

Should you use the mailblocks package and expect a response from me,
you should preauthorize the dissensoftware.com domain.

I very rarely bother responding to challenge/response systems,
especially those from irresponsible companies.
Anonymous
November 14, 2004 4:30:39 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

Binyamin Dissen wrote:

> :>Here's hoping that none of you have your contract "extended" without
> :>your knowledge or consent.
>
> Do you normally sign things without reading them?

No, but obviously you reply to posts without reading them. He wasn't
complaining about the first two ETFs. He was complaining about the last one
which came about as a result of his contract being extended without his
knowledge. Dropping the other two lines should not have extended his contract
on the primary line. I know - I've done the same thing myself, and my contract
has NOT been extended. If you like, call VZW customer service at 800-922-0204
and ask them yourself.

--
JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JustThe.net/
Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) / sjsobol@JustThe.net
PGP Key available from your friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED)
Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three kids.
Anonymous
November 14, 2004 4:30:39 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 01:30:38 +0200, Binyamin Dissen
<postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 14:45:09 -0800 Scott en Aztlán
><slothkills@NOyahooSPAM.com> wrote:
>
>:>I'm so pissed off right now I could spit!
>
>:>In June of 2002, I made the HUGE mistake of signing up with VZW on a
>:>two-year contract. I got three phones at that time.
>
>You got free (reduced price?) phones and a discount rate for signing up for
>two years.

And those two years are over. I fulfilled my original 2 year contract.
Re-read the original message if you're unclear as to what the actual
issue is.

--
Friends don't let friends shop at Best Buy.
Anonymous
November 14, 2004 4:42:04 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

Steve Sobol wrote:
> Peter Pan wrote:
>
>> Ummm Steve.. did you cancel the contract and pay an ETF, or just
>> drop two lines?
>
> OK, here's the deal. Let me clarify my situation so everyone
> understands where I am coming from.
>
>> By your own words... "At the end of contract in June 04,"... hey..
>> guess what, your contract was over and you were on month 2
>> month..You had already fulfilled the obligation to keep the contract
>> or pay an etf for the subsidized phones.
>
>
> The primary line I had from September 2000 through August 2004. I
> got a free phone in 2002 and committed to a new two-year contract in
> August 2002. I added the second line in June 2003 on a one-year
> contract, paid $20/month to share mintues between the phones, and
> cancelled the second line at contract end in June of 2004. I was
> still under my two-year commitment on the initial line until August,
> but when I cancelled my second line, it did not extend my contract on
> the primary line.
> To be 100% crystal clear: I did NOT purchase the phones at the same
> time.

So... once AGAIN.. you confirm that you kept the phone/contracts until they
expired, rather than cancel them early and pay the ETF. Did you miss the
part where he said he cancelled early AND PAID THE ETF? The contract was
cancelled, and he paid the ETF, and a new one line contract was started, to
keep the phone number, when the old one was cancelled AND HE PAID THE ETF...
You keep basing things on your experience, yet you continually say you kept
your contract full term and never cancelled it early by paying the ETF!

Guess what, when you cancel a contract and pay the ETF, the only way you can
have service is by getting another contract, and THAT will create a start
date of the day you go the contract.

You cancelled (did not renew) your second line contract only after you met
your 1 year obligation on your second line, not everything and *paid an
ETF*. The instant you *pay an ETF*, your entire contract is cancelled.

Once again.. you *pay an ETF*, your entire contract is cancelled. You may
start a new one immediately and keep the old number.
November 14, 2004 6:23:48 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

As I only had to read the first response and there's an idiot already
telling you about reading contracts. Dude, that's pretty much the response
you'll get from the people in this newsgroup. No one's gonna help or try to
give you any kind of information maybe to help you...only to make you feel
worse telling you that you should have read the contract even if it has
nothing to do with reading the damn thing. Don't waste your time with the
people in here. Most of them are arrogant cheap asses. It's as simple as
that.





"Scott en Aztlán" <slothkills@NOyahooSPAM.com> wrote in message
news:aj2dp0trkvure626f8mbahb2mipi1ib4g8@4ax.com...
> I'm so pissed off right now I could spit!
>
> In June of 2002, I made the HUGE mistake of signing up with VZW on a
> two-year contract. I got three phones at that time.
>
> In December of last year, I dropped two of those lines because I
> bought an Acura TL which has a built-in Bluetooth Hands-Free Link. I
> wanted to use this feature, but at the time Verizon did not offer any
> Bluetooth phones. So I bit the bullet, paid the early termination
> fees, and dropped two of my 3 phone lines.
>
> Unbeknownst to me at the time, when I dropped the two lines, the clerk
> at the VZW store also changed my rate plan from a family plan to a
> single-line plan. VZW claims this change extended my contract for an
> additional year from the date of the change. Of course, the clerk in
> the store never said anything about it.
>
> Just recently I ported the phone number from the final line to another
> carrier. Since my newly-extended contract doesn't expire until next
> month, greedy rapacious VZW charged me a $175 early termination fee,
> which they smugly refuse to remove or even to pro-rate. The
> "supervisor" arrogantly told me that even if I cancelled two hours
> before the end of my contract that VZW would charge the entire fee.
> Clearly all Verizon cares about is short-term, unearned profit, even
> at the cost of a permanent loss of customer goodwill. So be it -
> that's your business decision, Verizon - I'm sure you know what you're
> doing.
>
> So enjoy the $175, Verizon Wireless - that's the last of my money that
> you will EVER see. I might have considered switching back if, at some
> future date, VZW managed to come out with a usable Bluetooth phone,
> but any chance of that happenening has been completely eradicated.
>
> Here's hoping that none of you have your contract "extended" without
> your knowledge or consent.
>
> --
> "I believe that forgiving [terrorists] is God's function.
> Our job is to arrange the meeting."
> - Norman Schwartzkopf
November 14, 2004 6:58:10 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

"Peter Pan" <Marcs1102NOSPAM@HotmailNOSPAM.com> wrote in
news:2vo05oF2e007hU1@uni-berlin.de:

> Howard wrote:
>> Scott very clearly said he paid an ETF on TWO of the THREE lines.
>>
>
> Sorry. that is *NOT* possible.. You either pay an ETF or not for the
> ENTIRE contract. not for part of it. A new contract *MUST* be issued for
> the existing line and keep the number.

Please, learn to read. Scott is saying there was not one contract, but
three. Why is that so difficult for you to comprehend? By my count,
you've been told that by no less than three people now. The poor clue is
going to die of old age long before you manage to acquire it.

Furthermore, you are contradicting yourself. You've said that the contract
was fulfilled, now you are saying a new one "*MUST*" have been issued at
the time he dropped the other two lines. Pick your pony and stick with it,
you don't get to change once the bets are in and the race has begun.

--
Minister of All Things Digital & Electronic, and Holder of Past Knowledge
stile99@email.com. Cabal# 24601-fnord | Sleep is irrelevant.
I speak for no one but myself, and |Caffeine will be assimilated.
no one else speaks for me. O- | Decaf is futile.
Anonymous
November 14, 2004 10:34:06 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

Scott en Aztlán wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 01:30:38 +0200, Binyamin Dissen
> <postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 14:45:09 -0800 Scott en Aztlán
>> <slothkills@NOyahooSPAM.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> I'm so pissed off right now I could spit!
>>
>>>> In June of 2002, I made the HUGE mistake of signing up with VZW on
>>>> a two-year contract. I got three phones at that time.
>>
>> You got free (reduced price?) phones and a discount rate for signing
>> up for two years.
>
> And those two years are over. I fulfilled my original 2 year contract.
> Re-read the original message if you're unclear as to what the actual
> issue is.

Got to admit that so far this has been one of the more amusing threads.

I think we have the very popular misunderstanding of a family plan
and it's relationship to the primary and secondary lines contained
within... (misunderstanding by the respondents and not by the OP)
Each line in a family share (plan) has all the attributes of
an individual plan. Independent termination dates, etc. The primary
line cannot be a family share plan unless there are secondary
lines (one to four) associated with it. The OP was within the
contract term when he dropped the 2 secondary lines and paid
ETF on both of them. This is correct and not a point of contention.
Since there were no secondary lines the primary line had to be
moved to an individual plan. The termination date of this individual
plan (and the OP being notified of it) is the point of contention.

I think everybody agrees that VZW allows one to change plans
at any time. If you do, your termination date is extended if
you accept any promotions and is not extended if you don't.

The OP didn't say whether there were any promotions on the
individual plan he was switched to? Apparently(?), if there were
promotions on the plan, he wasn't informed of them and he
claims he wasn't informed of any termination date extention
past the date of the family plan that was dissolved.

My experience when changing plans, promos, new equipment,
has always been that the CSR always mentioned (in some way
or other, sometimes more obvious than others) the new termination
date if it was to be changed. I've always only dealt with *611
CSRs and never with the stores for plan related issues.

Have you tried relating your experience to the executive offices?
Sounds like maybe somebody didn't tell you what they should have.

-Quick
Anonymous
November 14, 2004 11:46:18 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

Hello!

I was on AT&T and recently changed to VZW. Whenever I made changes to my
plan on AT&T, I repeatedly asked the CS to confirm that my contract was not
going to be extended. I always ended my conversation by asking them to
verify again that my contract had not been extended.

Had an unscrupulous CS extended the contract after I hung up, I would be
able to fight it and ask them to play back the recording of me agreeing to
an extension. There would be none, since I verbally verified that my
contract was not being extended.

A little paranoia goes a long way.

As to writing to VZW, the OP absolutely should not let the third ETF just go
by. He should document RATIONALLY everything that happened, then send the
letter to VZW's corporate resolution center, with copies to the
highest-level person(s) he can find.

Gregg Hill



"Steve Sobol" <sjsobol@JustThe.net> wrote in message
news:cn6gsm$7dp$1@ratbert.glorb.com...
> Scott en Aztlán wrote:
>
>> So enjoy the $175, Verizon Wireless - that's the last of my money that
>> you will EVER see. I might have considered switching back if, at some
>> future date, VZW managed to come out with a usable Bluetooth phone,
>> but any chance of that happenening has been completely eradicated.
>
> If this was really done without your knowledge or consent, you should not
> let it sit, you should call them on it.
>
> Verizon's ads touting the best nationwide network is accurate in many
> areas of the country, but they have some issues. I have not experienced
> your issue, but my brother-in-law did. He managed to convince them to
> cancel the $175 ETF as he did cancel on the contract end date (but did so
> a couple hours before the contract actually ended) - I can't recall
> whether he did so through Customer Care or a retail store rep. (I left
> Verizon for other reasons.)
>
>> Here's hoping that none of you have your contract "extended" without
>> your knowledge or consent.
>
> Here's hoping that if this ever happens to anyone reading this, they
> realize that a contract isn't legally binding unless both parties consent
> to the terms, which can't happen if a VZW employee extends your contract
> on the sly, behind your back.
>
>
> --
> JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JustThe.net/
> Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) /
> sjsobol@JustThe.net
> PGP Key available from your friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED)
> Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three kids.
Anonymous
November 14, 2004 12:02:43 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 19:09:38 -0800 Steve Sobol <sjsobol@JustThe.net> wrote:

:>Binyamin Dissen wrote:

:>> :>Here's hoping that none of you have your contract "extended" without
:>> :>your knowledge or consent.

:>> Do you normally sign things without reading them?

:>No, but obviously you reply to posts without reading them. He wasn't
:>complaining about the first two ETFs. He was complaining about the last one
:>which came about as a result of his contract being extended without his
:>knowledge.

Your lack of comprehension is showing.

How did he get his contract extended without signing it?

--
Binyamin Dissen <bdissen@dissensoftware.com>
http://www.dissensoftware.com

Should you use the mailblocks package and expect a response from me,
you should preauthorize the dissensoftware.com domain.

I very rarely bother responding to challenge/response systems,
especially those from irresponsible companies.
Anonymous
November 14, 2004 12:02:44 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

Binyamin Dissen wrote:
>>> No, but obviously you reply to posts without reading them. He wasn't
>>> complaining about the first two ETFs. He was complaining about the
>>> last one which came about as a result of his contract being
>>> extended without his knowledge.
>
> Your lack of comprehension is showing.
>
> How did he get his contract extended without signing it?

I actually signed a contract when I went into a store many
years ago. Since then I've switched to various promo plans,
added lines, upgraded equipment, etc. Always over the
phone. Never physically signed another contract. I always
did get a copy shortly after in the mail though.

-Quick
Anonymous
November 14, 2004 12:04:11 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

Peter Pan wrote:

> Seems to me you are the one that is *NOT* reading what was written.. he had
> *ONE* contract with 3 phones and cancelled that early (with an ETF) and
> immediately started a new contract with only one line. He never said he had
> three contracts and cancelled two, heck he would have had to pay an ETF for
> each contract cancelled early ($175 * 2).

Well, I went back and looked at the post, and it looks like that is what he
said. What I am curious to find out is how you only have one contract for three
phones! Again, I'm drawing on my own experience and the assertions of VZW
employees in the past that say EVERY phone on a share plan has its own contract.

There's a difference between one contract that ends on date X, and three
contracts that each end on the same date...

--
JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JustThe.net/
Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) / sjsobol@JustThe.net
PGP Key available from your friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED)
Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three kids.
Anonymous
November 14, 2004 12:08:49 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

Quick wrote:

> Each line in a family share (plan) has all the attributes of
> an individual plan. Independent termination dates, etc.

That's what I said.

Therefore, if he cancelled two lines early, there is no way the contract should
have been changed on the third phone. It's independent of the other two!


> The primary
> line cannot be a family share plan unless there are secondary
> lines (one to four) associated with it. The OP was within the
> contract term when he dropped the 2 secondary lines and paid
> ETF on both of them. This is correct and not a point of contention.
> Since there were no secondary lines the primary line had to be
> moved to an individual plan. The termination date of this individual
> plan (and the OP being notified of it) is the point of contention.
>
> I think everybody agrees that VZW allows one to change plans
> at any time. If you do, your termination date is extended if
> you accept any promotions and is not extended if you don't.

Right...

> The OP didn't say whether there were any promotions on the
> individual plan he was switched to?

Why would it matter? He's not taking any new promotions. If I had free
unlimited Nights and Weekends, which I believe is still a promo with VZW, and I
changed my plan but did not take advantage of any new promotions (or buy a new
phone at a discount), my contract would not extend. Been there, done that, got
the T-shirt. Many times. From Local DigitalChoice to National SingleRate to
America's Choice, in fact. Completely separate packages.

> Have you tried relating your experience to the executive offices?
> Sounds like maybe somebody didn't tell you what they should have.

I think that is his major complaint. I'm just pointing out that nothing at all
should happen.

--
JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JustThe.net/
Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) / sjsobol@JustThe.net
PGP Key available from your friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED)
Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three kids.
Anonymous
November 14, 2004 12:09:21 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

Scott en Aztlán wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 19:11:49 -0800, Steve Sobol <sjsobol@JustThe.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Switching from family share to single-line doesn't extend your VZW contract - I
>>speak from experience.
>
>
> At least it SHOULDN'T... Maybe the clerk hit the wrong key or
> something?

I'm assuming that is what happened.


--
JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JustThe.net/
Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) / sjsobol@JustThe.net
PGP Key available from your friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED)
Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three kids.
Anonymous
November 14, 2004 12:14:29 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

Binyamin Dissen wrote:

> Your lack of comprehension is showing.

Really?

> How did he get his contract extended without signing it?

There are plenty of instances where I have agreed to a contract with a cellular
carrier without signing - the latest time was when I activated my second line
with my current carrier. All done via Telesales over the phone. Prior to that,
my wife moved her line with our current carrier from Ohio to California, and I
did the same with my VZW line. All done via customer service (the E-Z Move
department, in VZW's case) over the phone, and required us to terminate our
Ohio contracts with both carriers and set up new contracts in California. Which
we did. Without signing a thing.

In Scott's case, it appears to be a case where a store rep or CSR made a
mistake when doing the data entry required to change the account from a Verizon
FamilyShare plan to a single-line plan. Guess what: it happens. I don't believe
it was an intentional act; neither does Scott. But it happens. It's still not
legally binding if Scott wasn't told about the change, and they can't legally
hold him to the $175 ETF.

--
JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JustThe.net/
Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) / sjsobol@JustThe.net
PGP Key available from your friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED)
Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three kids.
Anonymous
November 14, 2004 12:19:27 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

Peter Pan wrote:
> Steve Sobol wrote:
>
>>Peter Pan wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Ummm Steve.. did you cancel the contract and pay an ETF, or just
>>>drop two lines?
>>
>>OK, here's the deal. Let me clarify my situation so everyone
>>understands where I am coming from.
>>
>>
>>>By your own words... "At the end of contract in June 04,"... hey..
>>>guess what, your contract was over and you were on month 2
>>>month..You had already fulfilled the obligation to keep the contract
>>>or pay an etf for the subsidized phones.
>>
>>
>>The primary line I had from September 2000 through August 2004. I
>>got a free phone in 2002 and committed to a new two-year contract in
>>August 2002. I added the second line in June 2003 on a one-year
>>contract, paid $20/month to share mintues between the phones, and
>>cancelled the second line at contract end in June of 2004. I was
>>still under my two-year commitment on the initial line until August,
>>but when I cancelled my second line, it did not extend my contract on
>>the primary line.
>>To be 100% crystal clear: I did NOT purchase the phones at the same
>>time.
>
>
> So... once AGAIN.. you confirm that you kept the phone/contracts until they
> expired, rather than cancel them early and pay the ETF. Did you miss the
> part where he said he cancelled early AND PAID THE ETF?

No, I didn't.

Did you miss the part where he said he rode out the contract on the third line,
but got hit with the ETF anyway because his contract end date somehow changed
to several months later?

> The contract was
> cancelled, and he paid the ETF, and a new one line contract was started,

How did he pay two ETFs if there was only one contract? How was there only one
contract if there were three lines? Have I been lied to all along by VZW who
has always said that the phones on a share plan always have their own contracts?

> You keep basing things on your experience, yet you continually say you kept
> your contract full term and never cancelled it early by paying the ETF!

Yes. OK, I didn't pay ETF. That is the sole difference. I still cancelled one
line and kept the other. Had I cancelled early I would have paid an ETF and
there is still no way the original contract would have been modified.

> Guess what, when you cancel a contract and pay the ETF, the only way you can
> have service is by getting another contract, and THAT will create a start
> date of the day you go the contract.

So tell me how there can only be one contract. Better yet, what I should do is
call VZW and ask them if you can get all of the lines on a single contract.
They've always told me no...

> Once again.. you *pay an ETF*, your entire contract is cancelled.

Sure. I'm not disputing that. But paying an ETF on one line doesn't cancel
separate contracts you may have for other lines.

--
JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JustThe.net/
Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) / sjsobol@JustThe.net
PGP Key available from your friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED)
Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three kids.
Anonymous
November 14, 2004 12:53:40 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

Scott en Aztlán wrote:

> Unbeknownst to me at the time, when I dropped the two lines, the clerk
> at the VZW store also changed my rate plan from a family plan to a
> single-line plan. VZW claims this change extended my contract for an
> additional year from the date of the change. Of course, the clerk in
> the store never said anything about it.

Irrelevent, but I'll throw it out there anyway:

If this line were originally the primary line on the Family SharePlan, even
if the two secondaries were disconnected, there would be no reason for this
priceplan change to have happened in the first place. However, if this last
remaining line was a secondary, then of course the plan change would have
been necessary and the contract would have been extended.
Anonymous
November 14, 2004 12:53:41 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Steve Crow wrote:

> If this line were originally the primary line on the Family SharePlan, even
> if the two secondaries were disconnected, there would be no reason for this
> priceplan change to have happened in the first place. However, if this last
> remaining line was a secondary, then of course the plan change would have
> been necessary and the contract would have been extended.

Ok, I'll buy the first part of that ("the plan change would have been
necessary"). The latter part means you are penalizing the customer for
continuing to do business with you...



--
JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JustThe.net/
Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) / sjsobol@JustThe.net
PGP Key available from your friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED)
Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three kids.
Anonymous
November 14, 2004 1:00:12 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon,misc.consumers,alt.consumers.experiences (More info?)

Steve Sobol wrote:
> So tell me how there can only be one contract. Better yet, what I
> should do is call VZW and ask them if you can get all of the lines on
> a single contract. They've always told me no...
>
>> Once again.. you *pay an ETF*, your entire contract is cancelled.
>
> Sure. I'm not disputing that. But paying an ETF on one line doesn't
> cancel separate contracts you may have for other lines.

That's the part that makes the most sense. Many people get a family share
plan one contract/up to 4 phones/4 phone numbers/shared minutes/unlimited
between phones... but ONE contract. There is no reason to have a *separate*
contract for each line. For home use you can have up to 4 phones on one
contract (business up to 1 million phones on one contract). There are people
that have multiple contracts and merge them into one shared plan (EX. people
with their own phones get engaged/married, and switch to a shared plan), but
the usual for families is to get one contract/shared plan that has up to 4
phones & lines.

Want details? Go to the verizon website and click on "Plans", then on
"Family Share Plans Available" to see the "Family Share Plans"
!