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Can Oblivion be as good as Morrowind?

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Anonymous
July 28, 2005 6:14:28 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

I wonder. MW not only was a very impressive game that gave us all a
lot of flexibility in how we roled played it, but MW is kept vibrant by
all the user mods that keep coming out. I'm not sure the mods have
peaked yet. MW_children, Wizard's Island and Constance--for
example--have only recently come out. Want something a little
different--then you can try one of the mechanics altering mods.

Thoughts?
Anonymous
July 29, 2005 2:15:07 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

DeAnn wrote:
> I wonder. MW not only was a very impressive game that gave us all a
> lot of flexibility in how we roled played it, but MW is kept vibrant by
> all the user mods that keep coming out. I'm not sure the mods have
> peaked yet. MW_children, Wizard's Island and Constance--for
> example--have only recently come out. Want something a little
> different--then you can try one of the mechanics altering mods.
>
> Thoughts?
>

Personally, I would like it if they returned to the Arena and Daggerfall
way of doing things. I dislike the way that almost All of the artifacts
of the Empire are available in one small area, that obtaining them is
trivial, and that once you have them, you have them forever. In Arena
obtaining one artifact was a major accomplishment. Also obtaining a
full set of good armor was another accomplishment. You could not go
into tomb X and obtain a full set of ebony armor. You had to go to a
very large number of stores buying it piece by piece.
The graphics in Morrowind are much better, but that isn't enough. There
needs to be randomness so when you play you don't automatically go to
tomb X and get ring Y, all at first level. I loved having to find the
rumors of someone who may know something about an artifact. Then having
to find the map to the actual location of the artifact. It could take
hours of playing to get an artifact, rather than minutes. And you had
no idea what artifacts, if any, you could find.
July 29, 2005 2:15:08 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

"Michael W. Ryder" <_mwryder@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:LNcGe.503848$cg1.176670@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

> In Arena obtaining one artifact was a major accomplishment. Also
> obtaining a full set of good armor was another accomplishment. You could
> not go into tomb X and obtain a full set of ebony armor. You had to go to
> a very large number of stores buying it piece by piece.

That's one thing that wasn't so great about Morrowind. Part way through the
game, you can practically ignore loot because there's so much of it.

> The graphics in Morrowind are much better, but that isn't enough. There
> needs to be randomness so when you play you don't automatically go to tomb
> X and get ring Y, all at first level. I loved having to find the rumors
> of someone who may know something about an artifact. Then having to find
> the map to the actual location of the artifact. It could take hours of
> playing to get an artifact, rather than minutes. And you had no idea what
> artifacts, if any, you could find.

A certain degree of randomness would be nice. Bethesda tends to recreate
the wheel with each game based on comments about the previous one. Usually,
some things are improved and others are worsened. Daggerfall players
complained that the dungeons were too random (a valid complaint) and that
magic was too overpowering (another valid complaint). So with Morrowind,
they cut down on randomness and gimped magic. Now the pendulum will swing
back a little in Oblivion.

Can Oblivion be as good as or better than Morrowind? Yes--I hope it is. I
love Morrowind, but there's room for improvement.
Related resources
Anonymous
July 29, 2005 4:55:45 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:15:07 GMT, Michael W. Ryder
<_mwryder@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

> DeAnn wrote:
>> I wonder. MW not only was a very impressive game that gave us all a
>> lot of flexibility in how we roled played it, but MW is kept vibrant by
>> all the user mods that keep coming out. I'm not sure the mods have
>> peaked yet. MW_children, Wizard's Island and Constance--for
>> example--have only recently come out. Want something a little
>> different--then you can try one of the mechanics altering mods.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>
> Personally, I would like it if they returned to the Arena and Daggerfall
> way of doing things. I dislike the way that almost All of the artifacts
> of the Empire are available in one small area, that obtaining them is
> trivial, and that once you have them, you have them forever. In Arena
> obtaining one artifact was a major accomplishment. Also obtaining a
> full set of good armor was another accomplishment. You could not go
> into tomb X and obtain a full set of ebony armor. You had to go to a
> very large number of stores buying it piece by piece.
> The graphics in Morrowind are much better, but that isn't enough. There
> needs to be randomness so when you play you don't automatically go to
> tomb X and get ring Y, all at first level. I loved having to find the
> rumors of someone who may know something about an artifact. Then having
> to find the map to the actual location of the artifact. It could take
> hours of playing to get an artifact, rather than minutes. And you had
> no idea what artifacts, if any, you could find.

I must say that the toolbox that came with Morrowind have proved really
useful. But I also agree that the game lacks randomness. In Daggerfall
especially, it would not be possible to write a traditional walkthrough.
You could do that with the main quest, but the main quest was such a small
part of the experience. And you could make the most improbable characters,
like a linguist with an allergy to certain metals but able to learn new
skills at triple speed...

In a way, the Elder Scrolls construction set for Morrowind is necessary to
bring back some of the randomness that was in the earlier games. And I
must admit they've done some really impressive things with it. In fact, I
am worried that having Oblivion come out this soon may put a stop to the
Morrowind mods, and then we will have to start from scratch again with
Oblivion. Hopefully this will be the last in the series, as it was
planned from the very beginning. For that reason, I had actually expected
- even hoped - that they would take some more time making it.

--
"When someone starts bragging about how much debt they have, it's not a
good sign." -G
Anonymous
July 30, 2005 1:40:20 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

It's all up to you and how you play the game though. If you go consulting
game guides then you will soon find that the games will get too easy.
Morrowind had a random item generation in chests and different objects I
believe? Perhaps this will be incorporated into Oblivion in some manner.
Also, you do not want rooms/dungeons to be forever changing. One thing that
I couldn't understand in Morrowind the first time I played it was that when
I killed a creature, went out of the building to heal and then went back in
to gather items, the creature was alive again. "How could this be? I killed
it." I found myself asking. I am very interested to see what Oblivion will
do, but won't be surprised if they do it all over again.

Morrowind was also created so that people could play it the way they wanted
to, and at their own pace. Oblivion is going to reflect that as well. For a
game such as Oblivion, which has been under construction for a while now, we
can only trust that the game developers have learned from their mistakes and
have listened to comments of improvement. I wouldn't worry about such a
small thing as this, the game should work around it somehow. And if not then
wack yourself over the head with a frying pan, you might just forget where
to find item 'Y' or 'X'...




> > In Arena obtaining one artifact was a major accomplishment. Also
> > obtaining a full set of good armor was another accomplishment. You
could
> > not go into tomb X and obtain a full set of ebony armor. You had to go
to
> > a very large number of stores buying it piece by piece.
>
> That's one thing that wasn't so great about Morrowind. Part way through
the
> game, you can practically ignore loot because there's so much of it.
>
> > The graphics in Morrowind are much better, but that isn't enough. There
> > needs to be randomness so when you play you don't automatically go to
tomb
> > X and get ring Y, all at first level. I loved having to find the rumors
> > of someone who may know something about an artifact. Then having to
find
> > the map to the actual location of the artifact. It could take hours of
> > playing to get an artifact, rather than minutes. And you had no idea
what
> > artifacts, if any, you could find.
>
> A certain degree of randomness would be nice. Bethesda tends to recreate
> the wheel with each game based on comments about the previous one.
Usually,
> some things are improved and others are worsened. Daggerfall players
> complained that the dungeons were too random (a valid complaint) and that
> magic was too overpowering (another valid complaint). So with Morrowind,
> they cut down on randomness and gimped magic. Now the pendulum will swing
> back a little in Oblivion.
>
> Can Oblivion be as good as or better than Morrowind? Yes--I hope it is.
I
> love Morrowind, but there's room for improvement.
>
>
Anonymous
July 30, 2005 1:40:21 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 21:40:20 +1000, "Sabeth" <Sabeth@goaway.com>
wrote:

>I killed a creature, went out of the building to heal and then went back in
>to gather items, the creature was alive again. "How could this be? I killed
>it." I found myself asking. I am very interested to see what Oblivion will
>do, but won't be surprised if they do it all over again.

Where was this? I found this sort of thing in the Giants mod
concerning zombies and there were of course the spriggans in Bloodmoon
and the even tougher earth spriggans in Giants that you had to kill
multiple times but I don't remember any such situation in the base
game un-modded.

>> > In Arena obtaining one artifact was a major accomplishment. Also
>> > obtaining a full set of good armor was another accomplishment. You
>> >could not go into tomb X and obtain a full set of ebony armor. You had to go

There certainly was an element of "Monty Hall-ism" in MW - the whole
point of most of the "House" mods was simply to get a better place to
display all that excess loot that one couldn't sell. Even with my
standard Creeper mod which I wrote to give him 50000 gold per day
instead of 5000 there was a lot of unsaleable stuff.

BTW my favorite house of all was the one you get when you finished
Suran Underworld.
July 30, 2005 3:21:37 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

"Sabeth" <Sabeth@goaway.com> wrote in
news:42ea159a$0$10030$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au:

> One thing that
> I couldn't understand in Morrowind the first time I played it was
> that when I killed a creature, went out of the building to heal and
> then went back in to gather items, the creature was alive again.

If you don't use the remove corpse option this problem should go away.
Anonymous
July 30, 2005 10:40:05 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

I think the main change should be to force the programmers to sit through a
computer programming course entitled "How to program a Game without making
it Freeze all the time!" (I've got the X-box version; I don't know whether
the PC version has the same problem or not. And I can't add mods in my
version - bummer, man!)

Other than that, we need some randomness in artifact creation. Keep the
standard artifacts, but allow random artifacts to be generated as well (as
it is in most variants of the freeware Angband).

Also, the dungeons seriously need a randomness in the treasures tied to your
player level. You get tired of finding huge amounts of treasure that would
be really exciting and useful to a player starting the game at level one!
When you're level five and beyond it's not even worth picking up. Finding
that the biggest thing in a cave is a chitin shield, when you're level 20,
is a big no-no!

Another out-of-balance factor is the amount of money. It isn't long into the
game when you're getting so much money you don't know what to do with it
all. I hate to say this but maybe there shouldn't be a Scamp or Talking
Mudcrab in Oblivion to give you the full value of the item. And when you're
whacking Daedra with a single blow, you can get as much money as you like
because they're weapons are too valuable.

Randomness in some of the quests would be nice, if it's not too much of a
challenge for the programmers! Also, you sometimes fall through the scenery
in Morrowind - that needs to be fixed!

"DeAnn" <diwan@mitre.org> wrote in message
news:1122585268.315034.270320@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> I wonder. MW not only was a very impressive game that gave us all a
> lot of flexibility in how we roled played it, but MW is kept vibrant by
> all the user mods that keep coming out. I'm not sure the mods have
> peaked yet. MW_children, Wizard's Island and Constance--for
> example--have only recently come out. Want something a little
> different--then you can try one of the mechanics altering mods.
>
> Thoughts?
>
Anonymous
July 31, 2005 4:36:34 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

The Appalling Silence wrote:
> I think the main change should be to force the programmers to sit through a
> computer programming course entitled "How to program a Game without making
> it Freeze all the time!" (I've got the X-box version; I don't know whether
> the PC version has the same problem or not. And I can't add mods in my
> version - bummer, man!)
>
> Other than that, we need some randomness in artifact creation. Keep the
> standard artifacts, but allow random artifacts to be generated as well (as
> it is in most variants of the freeware Angband).
>
> Also, the dungeons seriously need a randomness in the treasures tied to your
> player level. You get tired of finding huge amounts of treasure that would
> be really exciting and useful to a player starting the game at level one!
> When you're level five and beyond it's not even worth picking up. Finding
> that the biggest thing in a cave is a chitin shield, when you're level 20,
> is a big no-no!
>

True, but seriously how many items will you really need at high levels?
Once I got Sunder, I never used much of anything else. I had a full
set of Daedric armor (ebony pauldrons) before trying the expansions. I
still did like collecting sets of stuff to store at a house on a perma
corpse. I had a full set of Ice, Daedric (reserve), Ebony, Glass, Dark
Brotherhood, Her Hands (both enchanted off the guy you have to off in
Tribunal and unenchanted), the one's the king's guard wore, Indoril,
Andamantium, Snow Wolf, Snow Bear, and a couple others I thought were
neat. I also had a full set of deadric, ebony, ice, and glass weapons
plus tons of artifacts/powerful magic items. Not much more needed.

> Another out-of-balance factor is the amount of money. It isn't long into the
> game when you're getting so much money you don't know what to do with it
> all.

I find it takes awhile to get enough gold to get as many skills up to
the 90 range as you can (I believe on Xbox, only the armorer and
enchant master trainer is missing). Enchanting items also cost a lot
of money.

> I hate to say this but maybe there shouldn't be a Scamp or Talking
> Mudcrab in Oblivion to give you the full value of the item. And when you're
> whacking Daedra with a single blow, you can get as much money as you like
> because they're weapons are too valuable.
>

My problem is that the merchants simply don't have enough gold. I know
you can abuse Creeper, but that takes forever to get a reasonable price
for a 30000 gp sword. I also really hated weapon weights. A 60 pound
sword (daedric dai-katana) is simply too heavy, and it really eats up
your ability to carry loot. I guess it's a "balancing" thing, but in
Morrowind, if you didn't go heavy armor, you were left behind.

> Randomness in some of the quests would be nice, if it's not too much of a
> challenge for the programmers! Also, you sometimes fall through the scenery
> in Morrowind - that needs to be fixed!
>

The developers of Oblivion have said the Radiant AI will generate
random quests from NPCs, like "go here and get me these three flowers"
or "give this to person X here" while the faction quests will be far
more involved. Some of the Morrowind faction quests were just plain
boring.

> "DeAnn" <diwan@mitre.org> wrote in message
> news:1122585268.315034.270320@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > I wonder. MW not only was a very impressive game that gave us all a
> > lot of flexibility in how we roled played it, but MW is kept vibrant by
> > all the user mods that keep coming out. I'm not sure the mods have
> > peaked yet. MW_children, Wizard's Island and Constance--for
> > example--have only recently come out. Want something a little
> > different--then you can try one of the mechanics altering mods.
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
Anonymous
July 31, 2005 4:40:31 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

Magnus Itland wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:15:07 GMT, Michael W. Ryder
> <_mwryder@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> > DeAnn wrote:
> >> I wonder. MW not only was a very impressive game that gave us all a
> >> lot of flexibility in how we roled played it, but MW is kept vibrant by
> >> all the user mods that keep coming out. I'm not sure the mods have
> >> peaked yet. MW_children, Wizard's Island and Constance--for
> >> example--have only recently come out. Want something a little
> >> different--then you can try one of the mechanics altering mods.
> >>
> >> Thoughts?
> >>
> >
> > Personally, I would like it if they returned to the Arena and Daggerfall
> > way of doing things. I dislike the way that almost All of the artifacts
> > of the Empire are available in one small area, that obtaining them is
> > trivial, and that once you have them, you have them forever. In Arena
> > obtaining one artifact was a major accomplishment. Also obtaining a
> > full set of good armor was another accomplishment. You could not go
> > into tomb X and obtain a full set of ebony armor. You had to go to a
> > very large number of stores buying it piece by piece.
> > The graphics in Morrowind are much better, but that isn't enough. There
> > needs to be randomness so when you play you don't automatically go to
> > tomb X and get ring Y, all at first level. I loved having to find the
> > rumors of someone who may know something about an artifact. Then having
> > to find the map to the actual location of the artifact. It could take
> > hours of playing to get an artifact, rather than minutes. And you had
> > no idea what artifacts, if any, you could find.
>
> I must say that the toolbox that came with Morrowind have proved really
> useful. But I also agree that the game lacks randomness. In Daggerfall
> especially, it would not be possible to write a traditional walkthrough.
> You could do that with the main quest, but the main quest was such a small
> part of the experience. And you could make the most improbable characters,
> like a linguist with an allergy to certain metals but able to learn new
> skills at triple speed...
>
> In a way, the Elder Scrolls construction set for Morrowind is necessary to
> bring back some of the randomness that was in the earlier games. And I
> must admit they've done some really impressive things with it. In fact, I
> am worried that having Oblivion come out this soon may put a stop to the
> Morrowind mods, and then we will have to start from scratch again with
> Oblivion. Hopefully this will be the last in the series, as it was
> planned from the very beginning. For that reason, I had actually expected
> - even hoped - that they would take some more time making it.
>

Why should it be the last? If Oblivion is half as good as the stuff
out there says it is (with perks being granted for each skill at
different levels), real physics, NPCs with actual character and
life-cycles, it should be a vast improvement.
Anonymous
July 31, 2005 4:44:12 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

Sarah wrote:
> "Michael W. Ryder" <_mwryder@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:LNcGe.503848$cg1.176670@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> > In Arena obtaining one artifact was a major accomplishment. Also
> > obtaining a full set of good armor was another accomplishment. You could
> > not go into tomb X and obtain a full set of ebony armor. You had to go to
> > a very large number of stores buying it piece by piece.
>
> That's one thing that wasn't so great about Morrowind. Part way through the
> game, you can practically ignore loot because there's so much of it.
>
> > The graphics in Morrowind are much better, but that isn't enough. There
> > needs to be randomness so when you play you don't automatically go to tomb
> > X and get ring Y, all at first level. I loved having to find the rumors
> > of someone who may know something about an artifact. Then having to find
> > the map to the actual location of the artifact. It could take hours of
> > playing to get an artifact, rather than minutes. And you had no idea what
> > artifacts, if any, you could find.
>
> A certain degree of randomness would be nice. Bethesda tends to recreate
> the wheel with each game based on comments about the previous one. Usually,
> some things are improved and others are worsened. Daggerfall players
> complained that the dungeons were too random (a valid complaint) and that
> magic was too overpowering (another valid complaint). So with Morrowind,
> they cut down on randomness and gimped magic. Now the pendulum will swing
> back a little in Oblivion.
>
> Can Oblivion be as good as or better than Morrowind? Yes--I hope it is. I
> love Morrowind, but there's room for improvement.

I don't think you have much to worry about. It's a lot larger than
Morrowind (smaller than Daggerfall) and the NPCs have life-cycles. The
main thing I heard it will have less of will be total number of NPCs,
but then again most of Morrowind's NPCs simply stood there, even if you
went upstairs and looted their house. I'm really looking forward to
the stealth aspect.
Anonymous
July 31, 2005 3:47:05 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

On 31 Jul 2005 00:40:31 -0700, <hayes13@fadmail.com> wrote:
> Magnus Itland wrote:

>> I must say that the toolbox that came with Morrowind have proved really
>> useful. But I also agree that the game lacks randomness. In Daggerfall
>> especially, it would not be possible to write a traditional walkthrough.
>> You could do that with the main quest, but the main quest was such a
>> small
>> part of the experience. And you could make the most improbable
>> characters,
>> like a linguist with an allergy to certain metals but able to learn new
>> skills at triple speed...
>>
>> In a way, the Elder Scrolls construction set for Morrowind is necessary
>> to
>> bring back some of the randomness that was in the earlier games. And I
>> must admit they've done some really impressive things with it. In
>> fact, I
>> am worried that having Oblivion come out this soon may put a stop to the
>> Morrowind mods, and then we will have to start from scratch again with
>> Oblivion. Hopefully this will be the last in the series, as it was
>> planned from the very beginning. For that reason, I had actually
>> expected
>> - even hoped - that they would take some more time making it.
>
> Why should it be the last? If Oblivion is half as good as the stuff
> out there says it is (with perks being granted for each skill at
> different levels), real physics, NPCs with actual character and
> life-cycles, it should be a vast improvement.

The Elder Scrolls was planned to conclude with Oblivion. But of course
they can just make a less dramatic ending than what has been implied so
far, and continue to make new games.

As for the game engine improvements, however, you can always make new
improvements. Every 18 months the chips double in capacity, so things that
are impossible this year are possible next year. So the longer you work
until you release a new game, the more stunning it will be. You need to
time it so that you release the new game just before people are fed up
with the old. With all the new content made by fans, Morrowind could
probably have lasted another year, and who knows what Oblivion could have
been by then.

--
"When someone starts bragging about how much debt they have, it's not a
good sign." -G
Anonymous
July 31, 2005 7:08:45 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

<hayes13@fadmail.com> wrote in message
news:1122795394.632236.192290@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> The Appalling Silence wrote:
>> I think the main change should be to force the programmers to sit through
>> a
>> computer programming course entitled "How to program a Game without
>> making
>> it Freeze all the time!" (I've got the X-box version; I don't know
>> whether
>> the PC version has the same problem or not. And I can't add mods in my
>> version - bummer, man!)
>>

No mods is one of the reasons that I've never liked consoles. That and
their pathetic resolution.
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 4:30:58 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

Magnus Itland wrote:
> On 31 Jul 2005 00:40:31 -0700, <hayes13@fadmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Magnus Itland wrote:
>
>
>>> I must say that the toolbox that came with Morrowind have proved really
>>> useful. But I also agree that the game lacks randomness. In Daggerfall
>>> especially, it would not be possible to write a traditional walkthrough.
>>> You could do that with the main quest, but the main quest was such a
>>> small
>>> part of the experience. And you could make the most improbable
>>> characters,
>>> like a linguist with an allergy to certain metals but able to learn new
>>> skills at triple speed...
>>>
>>> In a way, the Elder Scrolls construction set for Morrowind is
>>> necessary to
>>> bring back some of the randomness that was in the earlier games. And I
>>> must admit they've done some really impressive things with it. In
>>> fact, I
>>> am worried that having Oblivion come out this soon may put a stop to the
>>> Morrowind mods, and then we will have to start from scratch again with
>>> Oblivion. Hopefully this will be the last in the series, as it was
>>> planned from the very beginning. For that reason, I had actually
>>> expected
>>> - even hoped - that they would take some more time making it.
>>
>>
>> Why should it be the last? If Oblivion is half as good as the stuff
>> out there says it is (with perks being granted for each skill at
>> different levels), real physics, NPCs with actual character and
>> life-cycles, it should be a vast improvement.
>
>
> The Elder Scrolls was planned to conclude with Oblivion. But of course
> they can just make a less dramatic ending than what has been implied so
> far, and continue to make new games.
>
> As for the game engine improvements, however, you can always make new
> improvements. Every 18 months the chips double in capacity, so things
> that are impossible this year are possible next year. So the longer you
> work until you release a new game, the more stunning it will be. You
> need to time it so that you release the new game just before people are
> fed up with the old. With all the new content made by fans, Morrowind
> could probably have lasted another year, and who knows what Oblivion
> could have been by then.
>

The problem with their "improvements" is that they broke a lot of the
things people liked in Arena/Daggerfall and added nothing in return.
They have not added any new maneuvers such as being able to mantle up a
wall such as Thief, but removed almost all of the randomness. The game
is more like an oversize Doom than a RPG. Now you know where all the
"power ups" are, armor and wounds get repaired instantly, etc.
One of the major things I liked about Arena/Daggerfall was that no two
games were the same. The people had different rumors, most dungeons
were different, and the location of almost everything was different. If
you needed weapon or armor repairs, unless you were a Knight, you had to
find an armorer and wait days for the repair.
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 5:11:57 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

hayes13@fadmail.com wrote:
> The Appalling Silence wrote:
>
>>I think the main change should be to force the programmers to sit through a
>>computer programming course entitled "How to program a Game without making
>>it Freeze all the time!" (I've got the X-box version; I don't know whether
>>the PC version has the same problem or not. And I can't add mods in my
>>version - bummer, man!)
>>
>>Other than that, we need some randomness in artifact creation. Keep the
>>standard artifacts, but allow random artifacts to be generated as well (as
>>it is in most variants of the freeware Angband).
>>
>>Also, the dungeons seriously need a randomness in the treasures tied to your
>>player level. You get tired of finding huge amounts of treasure that would
>>be really exciting and useful to a player starting the game at level one!
>>When you're level five and beyond it's not even worth picking up. Finding
>>that the biggest thing in a cave is a chitin shield, when you're level 20,
>>is a big no-no!
>>
>
>
> True, but seriously how many items will you really need at high levels?
> Once I got Sunder, I never used much of anything else. I had a full
> set of Daedric armor (ebony pauldrons) before trying the expansions. I
> still did like collecting sets of stuff to store at a house on a perma
> corpse. I had a full set of Ice, Daedric (reserve), Ebony, Glass, Dark
> Brotherhood, Her Hands (both enchanted off the guy you have to off in
> Tribunal and unenchanted), the one's the king's guard wore, Indoril,
> Andamantium, Snow Wolf, Snow Bear, and a couple others I thought were
> neat. I also had a full set of deadric, ebony, ice, and glass weapons
> plus tons of artifacts/powerful magic items. Not much more needed.
>
>
>>Another out-of-balance factor is the amount of money. It isn't long into the
>>game when you're getting so much money you don't know what to do with it
>>all.
>
>
> I find it takes awhile to get enough gold to get as many skills up to
> the 90 range as you can (I believe on Xbox, only the armorer and
> enchant master trainer is missing). Enchanting items also cost a lot
> of money.
>

That was one thing I liked about Arena. My character made it through
the game buying no training and having no items enchanted. Any
enchanted potions or items were purchased or looted, and finding an
ebony pauldron of levitation, for example, was a real bonus.


>
>>I hate to say this but maybe there shouldn't be a Scamp or Talking
>>Mudcrab in Oblivion to give you the full value of the item. And when you're
>>whacking Daedra with a single blow, you can get as much money as you like
>>because they're weapons are too valuable.
>>
>
>
> My problem is that the merchants simply don't have enough gold. I know
> you can abuse Creeper, but that takes forever to get a reasonable price
> for a 30000 gp sword. I also really hated weapon weights. A 60 pound
> sword (daedric dai-katana) is simply too heavy, and it really eats up
> your ability to carry loot. I guess it's a "balancing" thing, but in
> Morrowind, if you didn't go heavy armor, you were left behind.
>
>
They took away the weight of gold from Arena/Daggerfall and eliminated
the banks, letters of credit, buying houses and ships. It does not seem
like a fair trade. They also added a number of new metals, Daedric and
glass among others, and took out others, such as mithril and elven. I
still can't figure out why they changed so much of the series. If they
wanted a new game, label it a new game, not a continuation of an
established series.


>>Randomness in some of the quests would be nice, if it's not too much of a
>>challenge for the programmers! Also, you sometimes fall through the scenery
>>in Morrowind - that needs to be fixed!
>>
>
>
> The developers of Oblivion have said the Radiant AI will generate
> random quests from NPCs, like "go here and get me these three flowers"
> or "give this to person X here" while the faction quests will be far
> more involved. Some of the Morrowind faction quests were just plain
> boring.
>
>
>>"DeAnn" <diwan@mitre.org> wrote in message
>>news:1122585268.315034.270320@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>>I wonder. MW not only was a very impressive game that gave us all a
>>>lot of flexibility in how we roled played it, but MW is kept vibrant by
>>>all the user mods that keep coming out. I'm not sure the mods have
>>>peaked yet. MW_children, Wizard's Island and Constance--for
>>>example--have only recently come out. Want something a little
>>>different--then you can try one of the mechanics altering mods.
>>>
>>>Thoughts?
>>>
>
>
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 8:32:20 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

The Appalling Silence wrote:

> I think the main change should be to force the programmers to sit through
> a computer programming course entitled "How to program a Game without
> making it Freeze all the time!" (I've got the X-box version; I don't know
> whether the PC version has the same problem or not. And I can't add mods
> in my version - bummer, man!)

They get better and better at this as time goes by. You think Morrowind
freezes a lot? In Daggerfall, CTD was pretty much something you had to deal
with. You saved every couple minutes or so, or you were sorry. I expect
Oblivion will improve over Morrowind in much the same way.

> Other than that, we need some randomness in artifact creation. Keep the
> standard artifacts, but allow random artifacts to be generated as well (as
> it is in most variants of the freeware Angband).

Given artifacts are supposed to be unique items with an extensive backstory,
I doubt random generation would work well. I don't see how you could
generate a random backstory. One thing I could see is having the artifact
be randomly placed, and placing a rumor in the nearest village. It could
then spread by the standard NPC conversation channels, until you stumbled
across the rumor. As the game went by, the rumor would spread, making it
progressively more likely you would encounter the rumor.

> Also, the dungeons seriously need a randomness in the treasures tied to
> your player level. You get tired of finding huge amounts of treasure that
> would be really exciting and useful to a player starting the game at level
> one! When you're level five and beyond it's not even worth picking up.
> Finding that the biggest thing in a cave is a chitin shield, when you're
> level 20, is a big no-no!

All treasure is going to be generated according to treasure and class in
Oblivion, so you ought to be happy.

> Another out-of-balance factor is the amount of money. It isn't long into
> the game when you're getting so much money you don't know what to do with
> it all. I hate to say this but maybe there shouldn't be a Scamp or Talking
> Mudcrab in Oblivion to give you the full value of the item. And when
> you're whacking Daedra with a single blow, you can get as much money as
> you like because they're weapons are too valuable.

Horses and houses will be your money drain. Enjoy!

> Randomness in some of the quests would be nice, if it's not too much of a
> challenge for the programmers! Also, you sometimes fall through the
> scenery in Morrowind - that needs to be fixed!

Though the guild progression quests sound as if they are going to be an
elaborate linear progression similar to the main quest (though it is
possible that the main quest is less linear!), at least getting the highest
rank will unlock gameplay this time around. The commoner quests sound like
they will be, not so much "randomly" generated, as "procedurally." NPCs
will have needs, and I'm hoping they'll occasionally need the PC to meet
them. They did say most quests could be gotten from anyone, which reminds
me of the "merchant quests" of Daggerfall.

So, all in all, it sounds like you will be pleased with Oblivion.

- Tarvok
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 10:47:33 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 00:30:58 GMT, Michael W. Ryder
<_mwryder@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

> The problem with their "improvements" is that they broke a lot of the
> things people liked in Arena/Daggerfall and added nothing in return.
> They have not added any new maneuvers such as being able to mantle up a
> wall such as Thief, but removed almost all of the randomness. The game
> is more like an oversize Doom than a RPG. Now you know where all the
> "power ups" are, armor and wounds get repaired instantly, etc.
> One of the major things I liked about Arena/Daggerfall was that no two
> games were the same. The people had different rumors, most dungeons
> were different, and the location of almost everything was different. If
> you needed weapon or armor repairs, unless you were a Knight, you had to
> find an armorer and wait days for the repair.

Also in Daggerfall, if I was a member of the Mages Guild and had done a
certain number of quests, I could travel to Grayidge, Tulune, and buy a
life-stealing dagger. But if I did so early in my career, the dagger was
gold or light blue. I would have to come back later to get the
higher-grade dagger. And even then, it would wear down and break
eventually, and I would have to trek back for another (or use another
weapon). Likewise with various pieces of armor - some of them I would hear
about from other adventurers, some I would find out by myself, and some
seemed to always be in the same shop on one machine, but not on another.
It was a mix of regularity and randomness which was just right with me.
Morrowind is less random, but it still has random creature spawn and some
random loot spawn. I am sure many people like the game better with less
randomness. This is the kind of people who buy "clue books" for role
playing games. But the thing I enjoy most in the Elder Scrolls is the
freedom to create my own fate. It is still there, but it is somewhat
diminished. I hope it is not reduced again in Oblivion. I don't want to
be the Avatar (or even the Nerevarine), I just want to be some guy who
makes his way in a world filled to the rim with magic and weird creatures.

--
"When someone starts bragging about how much debt they have, it's not a
good sign." -G
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 10:56:36 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

Magnus Itland wrote:
> On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 00:30:58 GMT, Michael W. Ryder
> <_mwryder@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>> The problem with their "improvements" is that they broke a lot of the
>> things people liked in Arena/Daggerfall and added nothing in return.
>> They have not added any new maneuvers such as being able to mantle up
>> a wall such as Thief, but removed almost all of the randomness. The
>> game is more like an oversize Doom than a RPG. Now you know where all
>> the "power ups" are, armor and wounds get repaired instantly, etc.
>> One of the major things I liked about Arena/Daggerfall was that no two
>> games were the same. The people had different rumors, most dungeons
>> were different, and the location of almost everything was different.
>> If you needed weapon or armor repairs, unless you were a Knight, you
>> had to find an armorer and wait days for the repair.
>
>
> Also in Daggerfall, if I was a member of the Mages Guild and had done a
> certain number of quests, I could travel to Grayidge, Tulune, and buy a
> life-stealing dagger. But if I did so early in my career, the dagger
> was gold or light blue. I would have to come back later to get the
> higher-grade dagger. And even then, it would wear down and break
> eventually, and I would have to trek back for another (or use another
> weapon). Likewise with various pieces of armor - some of them I would
> hear about from other adventurers, some I would find out by myself, and
> some seemed to always be in the same shop on one machine, but not on
> another. It was a mix of regularity and randomness which was just right
> with me. Morrowind is less random, but it still has random creature
> spawn and some random loot spawn. I am sure many people like the game
> better with less randomness. This is the kind of people who buy "clue
> books" for role playing games. But the thing I enjoy most in the Elder
> Scrolls is the freedom to create my own fate. It is still there, but it
> is somewhat diminished. I hope it is not reduced again in Oblivion. I
> don't want to be the Avatar (or even the Nerevarine), I just want to be
> some guy who makes his way in a world filled to the rim with magic and
> weird creatures.
>

What I really liked about Arena/Daggerfall is that most magical items
had a charge that did not regenerate. You either used the item up and
it disappeared or you tried to get it recharged. The later took time
and money. If you used all the charges on your artifact it disappeared
just like in the legends about the item.
Also, in Arena/Daggerfall you were just a person that happened to be in
the right place at the right time. No prophecies to fulfill or
expectations to meet. And when you were done most people never knew
what you had done.
Anonymous
August 4, 2005 1:47:10 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

Magnus Itland wrote:
> On 31 Jul 2005 00:40:31 -0700, <hayes13@fadmail.com> wrote:
> > Magnus Itland wrote:
>
> >> I must say that the toolbox that came with Morrowind have proved really
> >> useful. But I also agree that the game lacks randomness. In Daggerfall
> >> especially, it would not be possible to write a traditional walkthrough.
> >> You could do that with the main quest, but the main quest was such a
> >> small
> >> part of the experience. And you could make the most improbable
> >> characters,
> >> like a linguist with an allergy to certain metals but able to learn new
> >> skills at triple speed...
> >>
> >> In a way, the Elder Scrolls construction set for Morrowind is necessary
> >> to
> >> bring back some of the randomness that was in the earlier games. And I
> >> must admit they've done some really impressive things with it. In
> >> fact, I
> >> am worried that having Oblivion come out this soon may put a stop to the
> >> Morrowind mods, and then we will have to start from scratch again with
> >> Oblivion. Hopefully this will be the last in the series, as it was
> >> planned from the very beginning. For that reason, I had actually
> >> expected
> >> - even hoped - that they would take some more time making it.
> >
> > Why should it be the last? If Oblivion is half as good as the stuff
> > out there says it is (with perks being granted for each skill at
> > different levels), real physics, NPCs with actual character and
> > life-cycles, it should be a vast improvement.
>
> The Elder Scrolls was planned to conclude with Oblivion. But of course
> they can just make a less dramatic ending than what has been implied so
> far, and continue to make new games.
>

I'd think they'd be dumb to drop it at Oblivion without seeing where
sales leads. There's still a lot of places in that world to explore,
like Elsweyr and the Black Marsh. I'd like to see all of Nirn
eventually.

> As for the game engine improvements, however, you can always make new
> improvements. Every 18 months the chips double in capacity, so things that
> are impossible this year are possible next year. So the longer you work
> until you release a new game, the more stunning it will be. You need to
> time it so that you release the new game just before people are fed up
> with the old. With all the new content made by fans, Morrowind could
> probably have lasted another year, and who knows what Oblivion could have
> been by then.
>

I'm pretty bored with Morrowind, actually. I've done the MQ more than
a few times, all factions, the expansions, and tried many mods.
Oblivion could be put off for a decade and look a lot better than it
would if they put it off a year. From what I've read and seen of this
game, I think it's going to be a game that blows many people away.
Besides, new single player CRPGs right now are pretty scarce, with
Neverwinter Nights 2 being the only other one I'm looking forward to in
the forseeable future.
Anonymous
August 4, 2005 1:50:46 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

John Doe wrote:
> <hayes13@fadmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1122795394.632236.192290@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > The Appalling Silence wrote:
> >> I think the main change should be to force the programmers to sit through
> >> a
> >> computer programming course entitled "How to program a Game without
> >> making
> >> it Freeze all the time!" (I've got the X-box version; I don't know
> >> whether
> >> the PC version has the same problem or not. And I can't add mods in my
> >> version - bummer, man!)
> >>
>
> No mods is one of the reasons that I've never liked consoles. That and
> their pathetic resolution.

Xbox 360 will not have pathetic resolution. It's one powerful machine.
Maybe not as good resolution wise as a totally new top of the line
system, but the differences will be small when one sees Xbox 360 games
on an HDTV. And with Xbox Live and the harddrive, some mods may make
it onto the consoles in this generation.
Anonymous
August 4, 2005 1:54:08 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

Michael W. Ryder wrote:
> Magnus Itland wrote:
> > On 31 Jul 2005 00:40:31 -0700, <hayes13@fadmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Magnus Itland wrote:
> >
> >
> >>> I must say that the toolbox that came with Morrowind have proved really
> >>> useful. But I also agree that the game lacks randomness. In Daggerfall
> >>> especially, it would not be possible to write a traditional walkthrough.
> >>> You could do that with the main quest, but the main quest was such a
> >>> small
> >>> part of the experience. And you could make the most improbable
> >>> characters,
> >>> like a linguist with an allergy to certain metals but able to learn new
> >>> skills at triple speed...
> >>>
> >>> In a way, the Elder Scrolls construction set for Morrowind is
> >>> necessary to
> >>> bring back some of the randomness that was in the earlier games. And I
> >>> must admit they've done some really impressive things with it. In
> >>> fact, I
> >>> am worried that having Oblivion come out this soon may put a stop to the
> >>> Morrowind mods, and then we will have to start from scratch again with
> >>> Oblivion. Hopefully this will be the last in the series, as it was
> >>> planned from the very beginning. For that reason, I had actually
> >>> expected
> >>> - even hoped - that they would take some more time making it.
> >>
> >>
> >> Why should it be the last? If Oblivion is half as good as the stuff
> >> out there says it is (with perks being granted for each skill at
> >> different levels), real physics, NPCs with actual character and
> >> life-cycles, it should be a vast improvement.
> >
> >
> > The Elder Scrolls was planned to conclude with Oblivion. But of course
> > they can just make a less dramatic ending than what has been implied so
> > far, and continue to make new games.
> >
> > As for the game engine improvements, however, you can always make new
> > improvements. Every 18 months the chips double in capacity, so things
> > that are impossible this year are possible next year. So the longer you
> > work until you release a new game, the more stunning it will be. You
> > need to time it so that you release the new game just before people are
> > fed up with the old. With all the new content made by fans, Morrowind
> > could probably have lasted another year, and who knows what Oblivion
> > could have been by then.
> >
>
> The problem with their "improvements" is that they broke a lot of the
> things people liked in Arena/Daggerfall and added nothing in return.

Really? Improved depth was always a good thing.

> They have not added any new maneuvers such as being able to mantle up a
> wall such as Thief, but removed almost all of the randomness. The game
> is more like an oversize Doom than a RPG. Now you know where all the
> "power ups" are, armor and wounds get repaired instantly, etc.

Then don't get them until you feel like it. Elder Scrolls games are
known for freedom and nobody but yourself can force you to get those
artifacts.

> One of the major things I liked about Arena/Daggerfall was that no two
> games were the same. The people had different rumors, most dungeons
> were different, and the location of almost everything was different. If
> you needed weapon or armor repairs, unless you were a Knight, you had to
> find an armorer and wait days for the repair.
Anonymous
August 4, 2005 2:04:07 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

Michael W. Ryder wrote:

> Also, in Arena/Daggerfall you were just a person that happened to be in
> the right place at the right time. No prophecies to fulfill or
> expectations to meet. And when you were done most people never knew
> what you had done.

Actually, that was one thing I really liked about Morrowind--the fact that,
once something major was accomplished, people actually *knew* about it. I
rather enjoyed being greeted like a savior.
--
- Tarvok
http://weeklyramble.blogspot.com
Anonymous
August 4, 2005 2:10:33 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

Michael W. Ryder wrote:
> hayes13@fadmail.com wrote:
> > The Appalling Silence wrote:
> >
> >>I think the main change should be to force the programmers to sit through a
> >>computer programming course entitled "How to program a Game without making
> >>it Freeze all the time!" (I've got the X-box version; I don't know whether
> >>the PC version has the same problem or not. And I can't add mods in my
> >>version - bummer, man!)
> >>
> >>Other than that, we need some randomness in artifact creation. Keep the
> >>standard artifacts, but allow random artifacts to be generated as well (as
> >>it is in most variants of the freeware Angband).
> >>
> >>Also, the dungeons seriously need a randomness in the treasures tied to your
> >>player level. You get tired of finding huge amounts of treasure that would
> >>be really exciting and useful to a player starting the game at level one!
> >>When you're level five and beyond it's not even worth picking up. Finding
> >>that the biggest thing in a cave is a chitin shield, when you're level 20,
> >>is a big no-no!
> >>
> >
> >
> > True, but seriously how many items will you really need at high levels?
> > Once I got Sunder, I never used much of anything else. I had a full
> > set of Daedric armor (ebony pauldrons) before trying the expansions. I
> > still did like collecting sets of stuff to store at a house on a perma
> > corpse. I had a full set of Ice, Daedric (reserve), Ebony, Glass, Dark
> > Brotherhood, Her Hands (both enchanted off the guy you have to off in
> > Tribunal and unenchanted), the one's the king's guard wore, Indoril,
> > Andamantium, Snow Wolf, Snow Bear, and a couple others I thought were
> > neat. I also had a full set of deadric, ebony, ice, and glass weapons
> > plus tons of artifacts/powerful magic items. Not much more needed.
> >
> >
> >>Another out-of-balance factor is the amount of money. It isn't long into the
> >>game when you're getting so much money you don't know what to do with it
> >>all.
> >
> >
> > I find it takes awhile to get enough gold to get as many skills up to
> > the 90 range as you can (I believe on Xbox, only the armorer and
> > enchant master trainer is missing). Enchanting items also cost a lot
> > of money.
> >
>
> That was one thing I liked about Arena. My character made it through
> the game buying no training and having no items enchanted.

I'm not complaining, just mentioning it in response to the guy.
There's plenty of things to spend money on for the first 40-50 hours at
least. Once maxed out and decked with great enchanted items, there's
not much else to spend gold on, but at that point you're basically a
walking god. One character of mine has something like 750K gold and a
whole bunch of items stashed away in a house. At least in Oblivion
they're allowing houses to be purchased.

> Any
> enchanted potions or items were purchased or looted, and finding an
> ebony pauldron of levitation, for example, was a real bonus.
>
>
> >
> >>I hate to say this but maybe there shouldn't be a Scamp or Talking
> >>Mudcrab in Oblivion to give you the full value of the item. And when you're
> >>whacking Daedra with a single blow, you can get as much money as you like
> >>because they're weapons are too valuable.
> >>
> >
> >
> > My problem is that the merchants simply don't have enough gold. I know
> > you can abuse Creeper, but that takes forever to get a reasonable price
> > for a 30000 gp sword. I also really hated weapon weights. A 60 pound
> > sword (daedric dai-katana) is simply too heavy, and it really eats up
> > your ability to carry loot. I guess it's a "balancing" thing, but in
> > Morrowind, if you didn't go heavy armor, you were left behind.
> >
> >
> They took away the weight of gold from Arena/Daggerfall and eliminated
> the banks, letters of credit, buying houses and ships. It does not seem
> like a fair trade. They also added a number of new metals, Daedric and
> glass among others, and took out others, such as mithril and elven.

Mithril is coming back:

http://www.elderscrolls.com/art/obliv_conceptart.htm

Click the picture in the middle and right.


> I
> still can't figure out why they changed so much of the series. If they
> wanted a new game, label it a new game, not a continuation of an
> established series.
>

That pretty much defies their whole philosophy. The designers said
they want to change things that didn't work last time or that the
fanbase really doesn't like. They spend a lot of time talking to
people interested in the game and listen to complaints. They heard
magic was overpowered in Daggerfall, for example, and gimped it for
Morrowind. Now they're trying to make magic more balanced for Oblivion
since so many people found magic to be weak in MW (and they're mostly
right, it had its utilities but you needed to invest a lot in
melee/marksman to get through it). And believe it or not, a lot of
people wanted more depth to the game rather than a huge map with
shallow NPCs. Daggerfall had like 750K+ NPCs while MW is far more
focused. They make changes according what they feel will make a better
game.

I liked Morrowind a lot. Played at least a few hundred hours of it.
But I think it's time for a change and much of it seems for the better.
The Radient AI system they're using sounds pretty damn good and it
brings a random element to the system.

>
> >>Randomness in some of the quests would be nice, if it's not too much of a
> >>challenge for the programmers! Also, you sometimes fall through the scenery
> >>in Morrowind - that needs to be fixed!
> >>
> >
> >
> > The developers of Oblivion have said the Radiant AI will generate
> > random quests from NPCs, like "go here and get me these three flowers"
> > or "give this to person X here" while the faction quests will be far
> > more involved. Some of the Morrowind faction quests were just plain
> > boring.
> >
> >
> >>"DeAnn" <diwan@mitre.org> wrote in message
> >>news:1122585268.315034.270320@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >>
> >>>I wonder. MW not only was a very impressive game that gave us all a
> >>>lot of flexibility in how we roled played it, but MW is kept vibrant by
> >>>all the user mods that keep coming out. I'm not sure the mods have
> >>>peaked yet. MW_children, Wizard's Island and Constance--for
> >>>example--have only recently come out. Want something a little
> >>>different--then you can try one of the mechanics altering mods.
> >>>
> >>>Thoughts?
> >>>
> >
> >
Anonymous
August 4, 2005 7:05:23 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 22:00:35 GMT, Daryl Sawyer <tarNOSPAMvok@gmail.com>
wrote:

> The thing that worries me is the fact that, in every interview, the
> number
> of guilds seems to get smaller and smaller. Initially, you had fighters,
> thieves, mages, dark brotherhood, arena guild, and Nine Divines. In
> recent
> interviews, Nine Divines and arena guild seem to have been cut. I worry
> that their "all voiced dialogue" thing will end up cutting dialogue
> content
> severely. In truth, I hate the "all voiced dialogue" fad in the same
> way I
> hate the old "3d everything" fad that ruined a good number of great 2d
> franchises.

I really don't see the point of the computer speaking to you if you can't
speak to it. It seems unnatural.

As for the disappearing guilds, I feel pretty confident that they will
return once the modders get their hands on it.

--
"When someone starts bragging about how much debt they have, it's not a
good sign." -G
Anonymous
August 4, 2005 11:20:06 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

hayes13@fadmail.com wrote:
> Michael W. Ryder wrote:
>
>>Magnus Itland wrote:
>>
>>>On 31 Jul 2005 00:40:31 -0700, <hayes13@fadmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Magnus Itland wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>I must say that the toolbox that came with Morrowind have proved really
>>>>>useful. But I also agree that the game lacks randomness. In Daggerfall
>>>>>especially, it would not be possible to write a traditional walkthrough.
>>>>>You could do that with the main quest, but the main quest was such a
>>>>>small
>>>>>part of the experience. And you could make the most improbable
>>>>>characters,
>>>>>like a linguist with an allergy to certain metals but able to learn new
>>>>>skills at triple speed...
>>>>>
>>>>>In a way, the Elder Scrolls construction set for Morrowind is
>>>>>necessary to
>>>>>bring back some of the randomness that was in the earlier games. And I
>>>>>must admit they've done some really impressive things with it. In
>>>>>fact, I
>>>>>am worried that having Oblivion come out this soon may put a stop to the
>>>>>Morrowind mods, and then we will have to start from scratch again with
>>>>>Oblivion. Hopefully this will be the last in the series, as it was
>>>>>planned from the very beginning. For that reason, I had actually
>>>>>expected
>>>>>- even hoped - that they would take some more time making it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Why should it be the last? If Oblivion is half as good as the stuff
>>>>out there says it is (with perks being granted for each skill at
>>>>different levels), real physics, NPCs with actual character and
>>>>life-cycles, it should be a vast improvement.
>>>
>>>
>>>The Elder Scrolls was planned to conclude with Oblivion. But of course
>>>they can just make a less dramatic ending than what has been implied so
>>>far, and continue to make new games.
>>>
>>>As for the game engine improvements, however, you can always make new
>>>improvements. Every 18 months the chips double in capacity, so things
>>>that are impossible this year are possible next year. So the longer you
>>>work until you release a new game, the more stunning it will be. You
>>>need to time it so that you release the new game just before people are
>>>fed up with the old. With all the new content made by fans, Morrowind
>>>could probably have lasted another year, and who knows what Oblivion
>>>could have been by then.
>>>
>>
>>The problem with their "improvements" is that they broke a lot of the
>>things people liked in Arena/Daggerfall and added nothing in return.
>
>
> Really? Improved depth was always a good thing.
>

Where are you seeing this improved depth? They improved the graphics
and took out most of the scenery. The interaction with NPCs is much
worse than Arena or Daggerfall. There is no option for asking for jobs
to raise money, nor is there any option to adapt a certain attitude when
talking to an NPC. You can either bribe them or taunt them, nothing else.
There is no weight to gold, nor is there any banks, notes of credits,
houses or ships to buy, or horses or carts for transportation. All of
these things would have migrated to Vardenfell as people would want the
things they are familiar with.


>
>>They have not added any new maneuvers such as being able to mantle up a
>>wall such as Thief, but removed almost all of the randomness. The game
>>is more like an oversize Doom than a RPG. Now you know where all the
>>"power ups" are, armor and wounds get repaired instantly, etc.
>
>
> Then don't get them until you feel like it. Elder Scrolls games are
> known for freedom and nobody but yourself can force you to get those
> artifacts.
>
>
But after a short time there is Nothing else to do in Morrowind except
collect all the artifacts. In Arena/Daggerfall there was always new
quests and dungeons to explore and there were No walkthroughs for any of
them. Morrowind is more like a Doom game in that everything is always
in the same place. In Arena I usually spent up to an hour in each town
looking for goods, rumors, etc. In Morrowind, after the first run
through it was time for the discard pile unless you wanted to take your
chances with the various mods.

>>One of the major things I liked about Arena/Daggerfall was that no two
>>games were the same. The people had different rumors, most dungeons
>>were different, and the location of almost everything was different. If
>>you needed weapon or armor repairs, unless you were a Knight, you had to
>>find an armorer and wait days for the repair.
>
>
Anonymous
August 4, 2005 11:39:01 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

hayes13@fadmail.com wrote:
> Michael W. Ryder wrote:
>
>>hayes13@fadmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>The Appalling Silence wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I think the main change should be to force the programmers to sit through a
>>>>computer programming course entitled "How to program a Game without making
>>>>it Freeze all the time!" (I've got the X-box version; I don't know whether
>>>>the PC version has the same problem or not. And I can't add mods in my
>>>>version - bummer, man!)
>>>>
>>>>Other than that, we need some randomness in artifact creation. Keep the
>>>>standard artifacts, but allow random artifacts to be generated as well (as
>>>>it is in most variants of the freeware Angband).
>>>>
>>>>Also, the dungeons seriously need a randomness in the treasures tied to your
>>>>player level. You get tired of finding huge amounts of treasure that would
>>>>be really exciting and useful to a player starting the game at level one!
>>>>When you're level five and beyond it's not even worth picking up. Finding
>>>>that the biggest thing in a cave is a chitin shield, when you're level 20,
>>>>is a big no-no!
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>True, but seriously how many items will you really need at high levels?
>>> Once I got Sunder, I never used much of anything else. I had a full
>>>set of Daedric armor (ebony pauldrons) before trying the expansions. I
>>>still did like collecting sets of stuff to store at a house on a perma
>>>corpse. I had a full set of Ice, Daedric (reserve), Ebony, Glass, Dark
>>>Brotherhood, Her Hands (both enchanted off the guy you have to off in
>>>Tribunal and unenchanted), the one's the king's guard wore, Indoril,
>>>Andamantium, Snow Wolf, Snow Bear, and a couple others I thought were
>>>neat. I also had a full set of deadric, ebony, ice, and glass weapons
>>>plus tons of artifacts/powerful magic items. Not much more needed.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Another out-of-balance factor is the amount of money. It isn't long into the
>>>>game when you're getting so much money you don't know what to do with it
>>>>all.
>>>
>>>
>>>I find it takes awhile to get enough gold to get as many skills up to
>>>the 90 range as you can (I believe on Xbox, only the armorer and
>>>enchant master trainer is missing). Enchanting items also cost a lot
>>>of money.
>>>
>>
>>That was one thing I liked about Arena. My character made it through
>>the game buying no training and having no items enchanted.
>
>
> I'm not complaining, just mentioning it in response to the guy.
> There's plenty of things to spend money on for the first 40-50 hours at
> least. Once maxed out and decked with great enchanted items, there's
> not much else to spend gold on, but at that point you're basically a
> walking god. One character of mine has something like 750K gold and a
> whole bunch of items stashed away in a house. At least in Oblivion
> they're allowing houses to be purchased.
>
>
In Arena, I finished the game with less than 10% of that amount in cash,
plus no stash of weapons and armor. The characters were essentially
mercenaries who only owned what they could carry on their back. What
little cash I could scrape together went to new weapons and armor, when
they were available, plus a very large number of healing potions.
Morrowind seemed more "Monty Haul" like in that enormous amounts of very
powerful weapons, armor, and magic items were available for the taking.
Plus the value of these items was so out of line as to totally ruin
the struggling adventurer mind set. After only a very short time I had
far more cash than I could ever use, even without using any of the loop
holes or mods.


>>Any
>>enchanted potions or items were purchased or looted, and finding an
>>ebony pauldron of levitation, for example, was a real bonus.
>>
>>
>>
>>>>I hate to say this but maybe there shouldn't be a Scamp or Talking
>>>>Mudcrab in Oblivion to give you the full value of the item. And when you're
>>>>whacking Daedra with a single blow, you can get as much money as you like
>>>>because they're weapons are too valuable.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>My problem is that the merchants simply don't have enough gold. I know
>>>you can abuse Creeper, but that takes forever to get a reasonable price
>>>for a 30000 gp sword. I also really hated weapon weights. A 60 pound
>>>sword (daedric dai-katana) is simply too heavy, and it really eats up
>>>your ability to carry loot. I guess it's a "balancing" thing, but in
>>>Morrowind, if you didn't go heavy armor, you were left behind.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>They took away the weight of gold from Arena/Daggerfall and eliminated
>>the banks, letters of credit, buying houses and ships. It does not seem
>>like a fair trade. They also added a number of new metals, Daedric and
>>glass among others, and took out others, such as mithril and elven.
>
>
> Mithril is coming back:
>
> http://www.elderscrolls.com/art/obliv_conceptart.htm
>
> Click the picture in the middle and right.
>
>
>
>>I
>>still can't figure out why they changed so much of the series. If they
>>wanted a new game, label it a new game, not a continuation of an
>>established series.
>>
>
>
> That pretty much defies their whole philosophy. The designers said
> they want to change things that didn't work last time or that the
> fanbase really doesn't like. They spend a lot of time talking to
> people interested in the game and listen to complaints. They heard
> magic was overpowered in Daggerfall, for example, and gimped it for
> Morrowind. Now they're trying to make magic more balanced for Oblivion
> since so many people found magic to be weak in MW (and they're mostly
> right, it had its utilities but you needed to invest a lot in
> melee/marksman to get through it). And believe it or not, a lot of
> people wanted more depth to the game rather than a huge map with
> shallow NPCs. Daggerfall had like 750K+ NPCs while MW is far more
> focused. They make changes according what they feel will make a better
> game.
>

My comment was based on Arena and Daggerfall which were basically the
same game in the same world. Morrowind is more like a alternate
universe than the same as the first two in the Elder Scrolls. Most of
the wildlife, vegetation, weapons, armor, and magic items are completely
different. Yet supposedly Morrowind takes place in one of the provinces
Arena takes you to. In Arena the artifacts were scattered across the
continent, rather than all on one island. The artifacts also had a
limited lifetime you could use them before they left for a new owner.
Not now.
I have no problem with Bethesda bringing out new games, thats how they
make their money. I do think a lot of people would complain if they
tried to make a Pirates of the Caribbean type game and called it and
Elder Scrolls game. Morrowind is Not a Elder Scrolls game to me as it
does not follow the rules set down in the first releases of the series.


> I liked Morrowind a lot. Played at least a few hundred hours of it.
> But I think it's time for a change and much of it seems for the better.
> The Radient AI system they're using sounds pretty damn good and it
> brings a random element to the system.
>
>
>>>>Randomness in some of the quests would be nice, if it's not too much of a
>>>>challenge for the programmers! Also, you sometimes fall through the scenery
>>>>in Morrowind - that needs to be fixed!
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>The developers of Oblivion have said the Radiant AI will generate
>>>random quests from NPCs, like "go here and get me these three flowers"
>>>or "give this to person X here" while the faction quests will be far
>>>more involved. Some of the Morrowind faction quests were just plain
>>>boring.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>"DeAnn" <diwan@mitre.org> wrote in message
>>>>news:1122585268.315034.270320@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I wonder. MW not only was a very impressive game that gave us all a
>>>>>lot of flexibility in how we roled played it, but MW is kept vibrant by
>>>>>all the user mods that keep coming out. I'm not sure the mods have
>>>>>peaked yet. MW_children, Wizard's Island and Constance--for
>>>>>example--have only recently come out. Want something a little
>>>>>different--then you can try one of the mechanics altering mods.
>>>>>
>>>>>Thoughts?
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>
August 4, 2005 6:03:33 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

<hayes13@fadmail.com> wrote in message
news:1123134651.104062.279380@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

>> Yes, which can be difficult to pull off.
>
> Which is why they've spent a lot of time with it. It's their job :-)

And all their games come out bug free with everything working wonderfully
well; everybody pleased with how everything was implemented. ;-)

>> The only reason I worry is that
>> Bethesda usually improves certain things and breaks certain things with
>> each
>> game. So the question is what will they break (or make worse) in
>> Oblivion?
>
> Alright, the main things I've read of developer quotes is that:
<snip>

It doesn't matter what's been said in interviews. Until we see the game, we
won't know what actually works well and what doesn't. Yes, I'm jaded. I've
read too many interviews with designers and developers (not just Bethesda)
that make it sound like every change they've made is fantastic and raises
the bar, blah, blah, blah. Then the game comes out and it ends up making a
nice coaster. So until I get a chance to play it, I'll reserve judgement.

> There is, but then again it's a subjective value judgement. Unless the
> mechanisms are totally broken, people will like/dislike the game on
> personal taste. I think I'll like it a lot. There will be some
> grognards who will dislike it a lot just because it's not
> Arena/Daggerfall.

Well, I liked Arena, Daggerfall, and Morrowind, but with every game, there
was room for improvement, and some things I loved in the previous game had
been removed (or didn't work as well) in the next one. That's why I'll
reserve judgement until I actually play Oblivion. The original question was
Can Oblivion be as good as Morrowind. The answer is yes. It could also be
better--or worse.
Anonymous
August 4, 2005 7:12:39 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

"Michael W. Ryder" <_mwryder@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:xFeHe.53573$5N3.41959@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

>> for a 30000 gp sword. I also really hated weapon weights. A 60 pound
>> sword (daedric dai-katana) is simply too heavy, and it really eats up
>> your ability to carry loot. I guess it's a "balancing" thing, but in
>> Morrowind, if you didn't go heavy armor, you were left behind.

And how much should a dai-katana weigh? Ever held a sword? Like, a
properly made one, not some cheap knock-off replica bought at a knife shop
or something like that. A katana is a heavy piece of metal. and they're
only about 3.5 feet long with a thin blade, and can be wielded
single-handed. Give it a bigger, broader blade and heavier grip to balance
it like you'd have in a dai-katana and you'd have a monster.
Anonymous
August 4, 2005 9:35:21 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

Michael W. Ryder wrote:
> hayes13@fadmail.com wrote:
> > Michael W. Ryder wrote:
> >
> >>Magnus Itland wrote:
> >>
> >>>On 31 Jul 2005 00:40:31 -0700, <hayes13@fadmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Magnus Itland wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>I must say that the toolbox that came with Morrowind have proved really
> >>>>>useful. But I also agree that the game lacks randomness. In Daggerfall
> >>>>>especially, it would not be possible to write a traditional walkthrough.
> >>>>>You could do that with the main quest, but the main quest was such a
> >>>>>small
> >>>>>part of the experience. And you could make the most improbable
> >>>>>characters,
> >>>>>like a linguist with an allergy to certain metals but able to learn new
> >>>>>skills at triple speed...
> >>>>>
> >>>>>In a way, the Elder Scrolls construction set for Morrowind is
> >>>>>necessary to
> >>>>>bring back some of the randomness that was in the earlier games. And I
> >>>>>must admit they've done some really impressive things with it. In
> >>>>>fact, I
> >>>>>am worried that having Oblivion come out this soon may put a stop to the
> >>>>>Morrowind mods, and then we will have to start from scratch again with
> >>>>>Oblivion. Hopefully this will be the last in the series, as it was
> >>>>>planned from the very beginning. For that reason, I had actually
> >>>>>expected
> >>>>>- even hoped - that they would take some more time making it.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Why should it be the last? If Oblivion is half as good as the stuff
> >>>>out there says it is (with perks being granted for each skill at
> >>>>different levels), real physics, NPCs with actual character and
> >>>>life-cycles, it should be a vast improvement.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>The Elder Scrolls was planned to conclude with Oblivion. But of course
> >>>they can just make a less dramatic ending than what has been implied so
> >>>far, and continue to make new games.
> >>>
> >>>As for the game engine improvements, however, you can always make new
> >>>improvements. Every 18 months the chips double in capacity, so things
> >>>that are impossible this year are possible next year. So the longer you
> >>>work until you release a new game, the more stunning it will be. You
> >>>need to time it so that you release the new game just before people are
> >>>fed up with the old. With all the new content made by fans, Morrowind
> >>>could probably have lasted another year, and who knows what Oblivion
> >>>could have been by then.
> >>>
> >>
> >>The problem with their "improvements" is that they broke a lot of the
> >>things people liked in Arena/Daggerfall and added nothing in return.
> >
> >
> > Really? Improved depth was always a good thing.
> >
>
> Where are you seeing this improved depth? They improved the graphics
> and took out most of the scenery. The interaction with NPCs is much
> worse than Arena or Daggerfall.

That's a subjective value judgement. If you like the earlier two
better, cool. I thought Morrowind was more unique and that each major
town had a distinct flavor. Never got that from Daggerfall from what I
remember. It's been 8 years since I played it.

> There is no option for asking for jobs
> to raise money, nor is there any option to adapt a certain attitude when
> talking to an NPC. You can either bribe them or taunt them, nothing else.
> There is no weight to gold, nor is there any banks, notes of credits,
> houses or ships to buy, or horses or carts for transportation. All of
> these things would have migrated to Vardenfell as people would want the
> things they are familiar with.
>

There were ships and silt striders in MW. The weight to gold being
nixed isn't all that bad, IMO.

>
> >
> >>They have not added any new maneuvers such as being able to mantle up a
> >>wall such as Thief, but removed almost all of the randomness. The game
> >>is more like an oversize Doom than a RPG. Now you know where all the
> >>"power ups" are, armor and wounds get repaired instantly, etc.
> >
> >
> > Then don't get them until you feel like it. Elder Scrolls games are
> > known for freedom and nobody but yourself can force you to get those
> > artifacts.
> >
> >
> But after a short time there is Nothing else to do in Morrowind except
> collect all the artifacts. In Arena/Daggerfall there was always new
> quests and dungeons to explore and there were No walkthroughs for any of
> them. Morrowind is more like a Doom game in that everything is always
> in the same place. In Arena I usually spent up to an hour in each town
> looking for goods, rumors, etc. In Morrowind, after the first run
> through it was time for the discard pile unless you wanted to take your
> chances with the various mods.
>

Again, this is subjective. I just thought MW was deeper. I'm one of
those who prefers quality over quantity. Daggerfall is far larger
(never played Arena) but MW just felt more immersive to me.

> >>One of the major things I liked about Arena/Daggerfall was that no two
> >>games were the same. The people had different rumors, most dungeons
> >>were different, and the location of almost everything was different. If
> >>you needed weapon or armor repairs, unless you were a Knight, you had to
> >>find an armorer and wait days for the repair.
> >
> >
Anonymous
August 4, 2005 9:45:49 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

Michael W. Ryder wrote:
> hayes13@fadmail.com wrote:
> > Michael W. Ryder wrote:
> >
> >>hayes13@fadmail.com wrote:
> >>
> >>>The Appalling Silence wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>I think the main change should be to force the programmers to sit through a
> >>>>computer programming course entitled "How to program a Game without making
> >>>>it Freeze all the time!" (I've got the X-box version; I don't know whether
> >>>>the PC version has the same problem or not. And I can't add mods in my
> >>>>version - bummer, man!)
> >>>>
> >>>>Other than that, we need some randomness in artifact creation. Keep the
> >>>>standard artifacts, but allow random artifacts to be generated as well (as
> >>>>it is in most variants of the freeware Angband).
> >>>>
> >>>>Also, the dungeons seriously need a randomness in the treasures tied to your
> >>>>player level. You get tired of finding huge amounts of treasure that would
> >>>>be really exciting and useful to a player starting the game at level one!
> >>>>When you're level five and beyond it's not even worth picking up. Finding
> >>>>that the biggest thing in a cave is a chitin shield, when you're level 20,
> >>>>is a big no-no!
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>True, but seriously how many items will you really need at high levels?
> >>> Once I got Sunder, I never used much of anything else. I had a full
> >>>set of Daedric armor (ebony pauldrons) before trying the expansions. I
> >>>still did like collecting sets of stuff to store at a house on a perma
> >>>corpse. I had a full set of Ice, Daedric (reserve), Ebony, Glass, Dark
> >>>Brotherhood, Her Hands (both enchanted off the guy you have to off in
> >>>Tribunal and unenchanted), the one's the king's guard wore, Indoril,
> >>>Andamantium, Snow Wolf, Snow Bear, and a couple others I thought were
> >>>neat. I also had a full set of deadric, ebony, ice, and glass weapons
> >>>plus tons of artifacts/powerful magic items. Not much more needed.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Another out-of-balance factor is the amount of money. It isn't long into the
> >>>>game when you're getting so much money you don't know what to do with it
> >>>>all.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>I find it takes awhile to get enough gold to get as many skills up to
> >>>the 90 range as you can (I believe on Xbox, only the armorer and
> >>>enchant master trainer is missing). Enchanting items also cost a lot
> >>>of money.
> >>>
> >>
> >>That was one thing I liked about Arena. My character made it through
> >>the game buying no training and having no items enchanted.
> >
> >
> > I'm not complaining, just mentioning it in response to the guy.
> > There's plenty of things to spend money on for the first 40-50 hours at
> > least. Once maxed out and decked with great enchanted items, there's
> > not much else to spend gold on, but at that point you're basically a
> > walking god. One character of mine has something like 750K gold and a
> > whole bunch of items stashed away in a house. At least in Oblivion
> > they're allowing houses to be purchased.
> >
> >
> In Arena, I finished the game with less than 10% of that amount in cash,
> plus no stash of weapons and armor. The characters were essentially
> mercenaries who only owned what they could carry on their back. What
> little cash I could scrape together went to new weapons and armor, when
> they were available, plus a very large number of healing potions.
> Morrowind seemed more "Monty Haul" like in that enormous amounts of very
> powerful weapons, armor, and magic items were available for the taking.
> Plus the value of these items was so out of line as to totally ruin
> the struggling adventurer mind set. After only a very short time I had
> far more cash than I could ever use, even without using any of the loop
> holes or mods.
>

There was a "Monty Haulism" aspect to MW, I agree. That's one reason
why I built up one super powerful character and then a whole bunch of
minor ones. Oblivion levels enemies up according to you and the combat
system has become more tactical with staggers and such. But at a
certain level, you'll hit an "unkillable" amount of power.

>
> >>Any
> >>enchanted potions or items were purchased or looted, and finding an
> >>ebony pauldron of levitation, for example, was a real bonus.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>>I hate to say this but maybe there shouldn't be a Scamp or Talking
> >>>>Mudcrab in Oblivion to give you the full value of the item. And when you're
> >>>>whacking Daedra with a single blow, you can get as much money as you like
> >>>>because they're weapons are too valuable.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>My problem is that the merchants simply don't have enough gold. I know
> >>>you can abuse Creeper, but that takes forever to get a reasonable price
> >>>for a 30000 gp sword. I also really hated weapon weights. A 60 pound
> >>>sword (daedric dai-katana) is simply too heavy, and it really eats up
> >>>your ability to carry loot. I guess it's a "balancing" thing, but in
> >>>Morrowind, if you didn't go heavy armor, you were left behind.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>They took away the weight of gold from Arena/Daggerfall and eliminated
> >>the banks, letters of credit, buying houses and ships. It does not seem
> >>like a fair trade. They also added a number of new metals, Daedric and
> >>glass among others, and took out others, such as mithril and elven.
> >
> >
> > Mithril is coming back:
> >
> > http://www.elderscrolls.com/art/obliv_conceptart.htm
> >
> > Click the picture in the middle and right.
> >
> >
> >
> >>I
> >>still can't figure out why they changed so much of the series. If they
> >>wanted a new game, label it a new game, not a continuation of an
> >>established series.
> >>
> >
> >
> > That pretty much defies their whole philosophy. The designers said
> > they want to change things that didn't work last time or that the
> > fanbase really doesn't like. They spend a lot of time talking to
> > people interested in the game and listen to complaints. They heard
> > magic was overpowered in Daggerfall, for example, and gimped it for
> > Morrowind. Now they're trying to make magic more balanced for Oblivion
> > since so many people found magic to be weak in MW (and they're mostly
> > right, it had its utilities but you needed to invest a lot in
> > melee/marksman to get through it). And believe it or not, a lot of
> > people wanted more depth to the game rather than a huge map with
> > shallow NPCs. Daggerfall had like 750K+ NPCs while MW is far more
> > focused. They make changes according what they feel will make a better
> > game.
> >
>
> My comment was based on Arena and Daggerfall which were basically the
> same game in the same world. Morrowind is more like a alternate
> universe than the same as the first two in the Elder Scrolls. Most of
> the wildlife, vegetation, weapons, armor, and magic items are completely
> different. Yet supposedly Morrowind takes place in one of the provinces
> Arena takes you to. In Arena the artifacts were scattered across the
> continent, rather than all on one island. The artifacts also had a
> limited lifetime you could use them before they left for a new owner.
> Not now.
> I have no problem with Bethesda bringing out new games, thats how they
> make their money. I do think a lot of people would complain if they
> tried to make a Pirates of the Caribbean type game and called it and
> Elder Scrolls game. Morrowind is Not a Elder Scrolls game to me as it
> does not follow the rules set down in the first releases of the series.
>
>
> > I liked Morrowind a lot. Played at least a few hundred hours of it.
> > But I think it's time for a change and much of it seems for the better.
> > The Radient AI system they're using sounds pretty damn good and it
> > brings a random element to the system.
> >
> >
> >>>>Randomness in some of the quests would be nice, if it's not too much of a
> >>>>challenge for the programmers! Also, you sometimes fall through the scenery
> >>>>in Morrowind - that needs to be fixed!
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>The developers of Oblivion have said the Radiant AI will generate
> >>>random quests from NPCs, like "go here and get me these three flowers"
> >>>or "give this to person X here" while the faction quests will be far
> >>>more involved. Some of the Morrowind faction quests were just plain
> >>>boring.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>"DeAnn" <diwan@mitre.org> wrote in message
> >>>>news:1122585268.315034.270320@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>I wonder. MW not only was a very impressive game that gave us all a
> >>>>>lot of flexibility in how we roled played it, but MW is kept vibrant by
> >>>>>all the user mods that keep coming out. I'm not sure the mods have
> >>>>>peaked yet. MW_children, Wizard's Island and Constance--for
> >>>>>example--have only recently come out. Want something a little
> >>>>>different--then you can try one of the mechanics altering mods.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Thoughts?
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >
Anonymous
August 4, 2005 9:49:13 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

Sarah wrote:
> <hayes13@fadmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1123134651.104062.279380@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> Yes, which can be difficult to pull off.
> >
> > Which is why they've spent a lot of time with it. It's their job :-)
>
> And all their games come out bug free with everything working wonderfully
> well; everybody pleased with how everything was implemented. ;-)
>

Well, we're not talking about bugs. There will be some like anywhere
else, but I don't think they're going to release it totally broken.
They've improved, and this title has way too much hype to let people
down by doing that.

But who knows?

> >> The only reason I worry is that
> >> Bethesda usually improves certain things and breaks certain things with
> >> each
> >> game. So the question is what will they break (or make worse) in
> >> Oblivion?
> >
> > Alright, the main things I've read of developer quotes is that:
> <snip>
>
> It doesn't matter what's been said in interviews. Until we see the game, we
> won't know what actually works well and what doesn't. Yes, I'm jaded. I've
> read too many interviews with designers and developers (not just Bethesda)
> that make it sound like every change they've made is fantastic and raises
> the bar, blah, blah, blah.

They're trying to build hype, sure. I'm just talking about what the
changes will be and whether they sound good or not.

> Then the game comes out and it ends up making a
> nice coaster. So until I get a chance to play it, I'll reserve judgement.
>
> > There is, but then again it's a subjective value judgement. Unless the
> > mechanisms are totally broken, people will like/dislike the game on
> > personal taste. I think I'll like it a lot. There will be some
> > grognards who will dislike it a lot just because it's not
> > Arena/Daggerfall.
>
> Well, I liked Arena, Daggerfall, and Morrowind, but with every game, there
> was room for improvement, and some things I loved in the previous game had
> been removed (or didn't work as well) in the next one. That's why I'll
> reserve judgement until I actually play Oblivion. The original question was
> Can Oblivion be as good as Morrowind. The answer is yes. It could also be
> better--or worse.

Indeed.
Anonymous
August 4, 2005 10:17:00 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

Paul Fedorenko wrote:
> "Michael W. Ryder" <_mwryder@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:xFeHe.53573$5N3.41959@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> >> for a 30000 gp sword. I also really hated weapon weights. A 60 pound
> >> sword (daedric dai-katana) is simply too heavy, and it really eats up
> >> your ability to carry loot. I guess it's a "balancing" thing, but in
> >> Morrowind, if you didn't go heavy armor, you were left behind.
>
> And how much should a dai-katana weigh? Ever held a sword?

Yes. And very few of them outside of ceremonial ones weigh more than
10 pounds or so. Think about it: you're swinging around a piece of
metal for and have to make cuts within a second or so, and do so
accurately. Even in Europe (where the swords are stereotyped to be
huge hunks of metal), it took a good ammount of skill to use a sword
effectively. They didn't just hack and slash.

> Like, a
> properly made one, not some cheap knock-off replica bought at a knife shop
> or something like that.

The replicas are usually heavier than the ones used by swordsmen.
Especially swords used in combat, since utility was important. Nobody
would use a weapon too heavy to wield.

>A katana is a heavy piece of metal. and they're
> only about 3.5 feet long with a thin blade, and can be wielded
> single-handed. Give it a bigger, broader blade and heavier grip to balance
> it like you'd have in a dai-katana and you'd have a monster.

Alright, you might want to look elsewhere than a D&D manual for weights
of swords. Very few ever hit 10 pounds or above. Lift up a 50 pound
barbel. Imagine trying to swing that around and trying to move it with
skill to the point where you got maybe a second or so to deal a killing
strike with accuracy against another skilled opponent. While in armor.
A wielder would have to be incredibly strong and have superhuman
endurance to do it. I know Morrowind is fantasy, but the weight is
just ridiculous.

It's highly debated just how heavy they are (and I'm no expert), but
every time I see this show up in places like rec.games.frp.dnd, the
ones who know it well talk about how weights in fantasy books of
weapons are way off. They're a lot lighter than you think (nowhere
close to 60 pounds):

http://www.knight2day.com/weapons.html

http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/cariadoc/shield_and_weapon_...

http://www.thehaca.com/essays/weights.htm
Quote:

>From ordinary hands-on experience we know full well that swords were
not excessively heavy nor did they weigh 10 or 15 pounds and more.
There is only so many ways we can repeat how these weapons were not at
all heavy or ungainly. Remarkably, while one would think a crucial
piece of information as the weight of swords would be of great interest
to arms curators and arms historians, there is no major reference book
that actually lists the weights of different types. Perhaps this vacuum
of documented evidence is part of the very problem surrounding the
issue. However, there are a few respected sources that do give some
valuable statistics. For example, the lengthy catalog of swords from
the famed Wallace Collection Museum in London readily lists dozens of
fine specimens among which it is difficult to find any weighing in
excess of 4 pounds. Indeed, the majority of specimens, from arming
swords to two-handers to rapiers, weigh much less than three pounds.


Katanas that were used for combat also are very light, around 1-4
pounds, as many sites which sell them will show:

http://www.mantisswords.com/iaito_katanas.htm

As well as the experts:

http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm
Quote:

Knightly blades could be excellent swords, but are often denigrated
merely as crude hunks of iron while samurai swords are venerated and
exalted sometimes to the point of absurdity by collectors and
enthusiasts (something the Japanese themselves do not discourage). Bad
films and poorly trained martial artists reinforce this myth. The
bottom line is that Medieval swords were indeed well-made, light, agile
fighting weapons equally capable of delivering dismembering cuts or
cleaving deep into body cavities. They were far from the clumsy, heavy
things they're often portrayed as in popular media and far, far more
than a mere "club with edges." Interestingly, the weight of katanas
compared to longswords is very close with each on average being less
than 4 pounds.
August 5, 2005 2:39:34 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

<hayes13@fadmail.com> wrote in message
news:1123202953.076612.211040@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> They're trying to build hype, sure. I'm just talking about what the
> changes will be and whether they sound good or not.

I've been reading the interviews with interest. Some of the changes sound
great if they're implemented properly; a couple have me worried but I'm
willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until I get my hands on the
game.
Anonymous
August 5, 2005 1:30:48 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

On 4 Aug 2005 17:35:21 -0700, <hayes13@fadmail.com> wrote:
> Michael W. Ryder wrote:

>> Where are you seeing this improved depth? They improved the graphics
>> and took out most of the scenery. The interaction with NPCs is much
>> worse than Arena or Daggerfall.
>
> That's a subjective value judgement. If you like the earlier two
> better, cool. I thought Morrowind was more unique and that each major
> town had a distinct flavor. Never got that from Daggerfall from what I
> remember. It's been 8 years since I played it.

Well, in terms of architecture etc, Daggerfall had 4 climates: Mountain,
temperate, desert and jungle. Morrowind has 3 factions with distinct
architecture. But Daggerfall had dozens of cities in each such zone,
while Morrowind only has a couple. There are more unique NPCs in
Morrowind (only the main quest NPCs were unique in Daggerfall) but this is
not always a good thing. They are scripted, so once you're done with them,
they become less than the cardboard characters in DF, who would at least
give you jobs and keep you oriented on the faction wars that always
plagued the lands.

The Radiant AI of Oblivion promises to put an end to pure scripting, and
we may see traveling rumors. This is good, if they manage to implement
it. It could easily be better than any of the earlier games, but I reserve
my optimism until I see a serious preview rather than a trailer that is
mostly art display.

> There were ships and silt striders in MW. The weight to gold being
> nixed isn't all that bad, IMO.

The ships and silt striders were basically teleport devices except they
did subtract some hours.


--
"When someone starts bragging about how much debt they have, it's not a
good sign." -G
August 5, 2005 2:54:20 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

Sarah wrote:
> <hayes13@fadmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1123202953.076612.211040@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> > They're trying to build hype, sure. I'm just talking about what the
> > changes will be and whether they sound good or not.
>
> I've been reading the interviews with interest. Some of the changes sound
> great if they're implemented properly; a couple have me worried but I'm
> willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until I get my hands on the
> game.

I know what you're saying. I remember the hype before Fable about how
that was going to be the most "open ended" RPG and it turned out to be
a really short game (according to those who bought it and were
dissapointed).
August 5, 2005 2:59:07 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

Magnus Itland wrote:
> On 4 Aug 2005 17:35:21 -0700, <hayes13@fadmail.com> wrote:
> > Michael W. Ryder wrote:
>
> >> Where are you seeing this improved depth? They improved the graphics
> >> and took out most of the scenery. The interaction with NPCs is much
> >> worse than Arena or Daggerfall.
> >
> > That's a subjective value judgement. If you like the earlier two
> > better, cool. I thought Morrowind was more unique and that each major
> > town had a distinct flavor. Never got that from Daggerfall from what I
> > remember. It's been 8 years since I played it.
>
> Well, in terms of architecture etc, Daggerfall had 4 climates: Mountain,
> temperate, desert and jungle. Morrowind has 3 factions with distinct
> architecture. But Daggerfall had dozens of cities in each such zone,
> while Morrowind only has a couple. There are more unique NPCs in
> Morrowind (only the main quest NPCs were unique in Daggerfall) but this is
> not always a good thing. They are scripted, so once you're done with them,
> they become less than the cardboard characters in DF, who would at least
> give you jobs and keep you oriented on the faction wars that always
> plagued the lands.
>
> The Radiant AI of Oblivion promises to put an end to pure scripting, and
> we may see traveling rumors. This is good, if they manage to implement
> it. It could easily be better than any of the earlier games, but I reserve
> my optimism until I see a serious preview rather than a trailer that is
> mostly art display.
>

The trailers are more about showing off the graphics than the gameplay.
It will be a tough call to see just how good the Radiant AI is until
you put a few hours in game observing it. I think the talk I heard
about enemies picking up swords and attacking sounds just too cool.

> > There were ships and silt striders in MW. The weight to gold being
> > nixed isn't all that bad, IMO.
>
> The ships and silt striders were basically teleport devices except they
> did subtract some hours.
>

Sometimes that isn't bad. I'm glad they got a fast travel map this
time around because I don't want to have to walk everywhere. I also
hope they have the ability to use mark/recall in more than one spot.
Anonymous
August 5, 2005 11:11:55 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

I completely agree with your comments. Just wanted to add a link to a "real"
swordsmith --- http://www.thaitsuki.com/ktn1.shtml

hayes13@fadmail.com wrote:

:
:p aul Fedorenko wrote:
:> "Michael W. Ryder" <_mwryder@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
:> news:xFeHe.53573$5N3.41959@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
:>
:> >> for a 30000 gp sword. I also really hated weapon weights. A 60 pound
:> >> sword (daedric dai-katana) is simply too heavy, and it really eats up
:> >> your ability to carry loot. I guess it's a "balancing" thing, but in
:> >> Morrowind, if you didn't go heavy armor, you were left behind.
:>
:> And how much should a dai-katana weigh? Ever held a sword?
:
:Yes. And very few of them outside of ceremonial ones weigh more than
:10 pounds or so. Think about it: you're swinging around a piece of
:metal for and have to make cuts within a second or so, and do so
:accurately. Even in Europe (where the swords are stereotyped to be
:huge hunks of metal), it took a good ammount of skill to use a sword
:effectively. They didn't just hack and slash.
:
:> Like, a
:> properly made one, not some cheap knock-off replica bought at a knife shop
:> or something like that.
:
:The replicas are usually heavier than the ones used by swordsmen.
:Especially swords used in combat, since utility was important. Nobody
:would use a weapon too heavy to wield.
:
:>A katana is a heavy piece of metal. and they're
:> only about 3.5 feet long with a thin blade, and can be wielded
:> single-handed. Give it a bigger, broader blade and heavier grip to balance
:> it like you'd have in a dai-katana and you'd have a monster.
:
:Alright, you might want to look elsewhere than a D&D manual for weights
:o f swords. Very few ever hit 10 pounds or above. Lift up a 50 pound
:barbel. Imagine trying to swing that around and trying to move it with
:skill to the point where you got maybe a second or so to deal a killing
:strike with accuracy against another skilled opponent. While in armor.
: A wielder would have to be incredibly strong and have superhuman
:endurance to do it. I know Morrowind is fantasy, but the weight is
:just ridiculous.
:
:It's highly debated just how heavy they are (and I'm no expert), but
:every time I see this show up in places like rec.games.frp.dnd, the
:o nes who know it well talk about how weights in fantasy books of
:weapons are way off. They're a lot lighter than you think (nowhere
:close to 60 pounds):
:
:http://www.knight2day.com/weapons.html
:
:http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/cariadoc/shield_and_weapon_...
:
:http://www.thehaca.com/essays/weights.htm
:
Quote:

:>From ordinary hands-on experience we know full well that swords were
:not excessively heavy nor did they weigh 10 or 15 pounds and more.
:There is only so many ways we can repeat how these weapons were not at
:all heavy or ungainly. Remarkably, while one would think a crucial
:p iece of information as the weight of swords would be of great interest
:to arms curators and arms historians, there is no major reference book
:that actually lists the weights of different types. Perhaps this vacuum
:o f documented evidence is part of the very problem surrounding the
:issue. However, there are a few respected sources that do give some
:valuable statistics. For example, the lengthy catalog of swords from
:the famed Wallace Collection Museum in London readily lists dozens of
:fine specimens among which it is difficult to find any weighing in
:excess of 4 pounds. Indeed, the majority of specimens, from arming
:swords to two-handers to rapiers, weigh much less than three pounds.
:

:
:Katanas that were used for combat also are very light, around 1-4
:p ounds, as many sites which sell them will show:
:
:http://www.mantisswords.com/iaito_katanas.htm
:
:As well as the experts:
:
:http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm
:
Quote:

:Knightly blades could be excellent swords, but are often denigrated
:merely as crude hunks of iron while samurai swords are venerated and
:exalted sometimes to the point of absurdity by collectors and
:enthusiasts (something the Japanese themselves do not discourage). Bad
:films and poorly trained martial artists reinforce this myth. The
:bottom line is that Medieval swords were indeed well-made, light, agile
:fighting weapons equally capable of delivering dismembering cuts or
:cleaving deep into body cavities. They were far from the clumsy, heavy
:things they're often portrayed as in popular media and far, far more
:than a mere "club with edges." Interestingly, the weight of katanas
:compared to longswords is very close with each on average being less
:than 4 pounds.
:
Anonymous
August 8, 2005 8:54:32 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

<hayes13@fadmail.com> wrote in message
news:1123204619.932414.199490@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

> Alright, you might want to look elsewhere than a D&D manual for weights
> of swords. Very few ever hit 10 pounds or above. Lift up a 50 pound
> barbel. Imagine trying to swing that around and trying to move it with

I'm not looking in a D&D manual. I'm going on personal experience from
trying out a katana in a kendo class. The thing was heavy. You're grossly
underestimating with your guess of 10 pounds.
August 9, 2005 2:39:17 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

Paul Fedorenko wrote:
> I'd like to retract my previous post. It appears that I remembered the
> katana feeling heavier than it actually was. I called my sensei and asked
> him about the sword, he told me it weighed about four pounds. So it appears
> my most humble of apologies are in order. Definitely less than ten pounds.
> I guess, in hindsight, it makes sense.

It probably seems heavier than 4 pounds if you wield it for a while.
It also may have seemed heavier due to the sturdiness of the material.
When I was in the US Army in basic, the Drill Daddies would have us
hold out our boots in front of us for about 10 minutes a clip. They're
only a couple pounds, but after two minutes or so your arms would start
to ache.

It's no biggy.
Anonymous
August 9, 2005 2:42:48 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

I'd like to retract my previous post. It appears that I remembered the
katana feeling heavier than it actually was. I called my sensei and asked
him about the sword, he told me it weighed about four pounds. So it appears
my most humble of apologies are in order. Definitely less than ten pounds.
I guess, in hindsight, it makes sense.
Anonymous
August 9, 2005 6:22:59 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

DeAnn wrote:
> I wonder. MW not only was a very impressive game that gave us all a
> lot of flexibility in how we roled played it, but MW is kept vibrant by
> all the user mods that keep coming out. I'm not sure the mods have
> peaked yet. MW_children, Wizard's Island and Constance--for
> example--have only recently come out.

Links?
Anonymous
August 10, 2005 1:32:14 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 02:22:59 -0400, ToolPackinMama
<laura@lauragoodwin.org> wrote:
> DeAnn wrote:
>> I wonder. MW not only was a very impressive game that gave us all a
>> lot of flexibility in how we roled played it, but MW is kept vibrant by
>> all the user mods that keep coming out. I'm not sure the mods have
>> peaked yet. MW_children, Wizard's Island and Constance--for
>> example--have only recently come out.
>
> Links?

These should help (there may be others)

Constance: http://lovkullen.net/Emma/Constance.htm
Children: http://rethan-manor.net/Emma/Mirror/kids.htm
(also take a look at the cute cats while you're there, OK?)
Wizard's Islands: http://www.wizards-islands.com/wifeatures.htm

--
"When someone starts bragging about how much debt they have, it's not a
good sign." -G
Anonymous
August 11, 2005 11:48:57 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

On Thu, 04 Aug 2005 06:50:46 +0200, <hayes13@fadmail.com> wrote:

>
> John Doe wrote:
>> <hayes13@fadmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1122795394.632236.192290@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> >
>> > The Appalling Silence wrote:
>> >> I think the main change should be to force the programmers to sit
>> through
>> >> a
>> >> computer programming course entitled "How to program a Game without
>> >> making
>> >> it Freeze all the time!" (I've got the X-box version; I don't know
>> >> whether
>> >> the PC version has the same problem or not. And I can't add mods in
>> my
>> >> version - bummer, man!)
>> >>
>>
>> No mods is one of the reasons that I've never liked consoles. That and
>> their pathetic resolution.
>
> Xbox 360 will not have pathetic resolution. It's one powerful machine.
> Maybe not as good resolution wise as a totally new top of the line
> system, but the differences will be small when one sees Xbox 360 games
> on an HDTV. And with Xbox Live and the harddrive, some mods may make
> it onto the consoles in this generation.
>

That all depends on the compatibility between Construction Set for PC and
xbox 360.
The Construction Set will not be released for xbox 360. They will have to
be made on PCs.



--
The turtle moves!
August 13, 2005 9:49:11 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

Lasse B wrote:
> On Thu, 04 Aug 2005 06:50:46 +0200, <hayes13@fadmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > John Doe wrote:
> >> <hayes13@fadmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:1122795394.632236.192290@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >> >
> >> > The Appalling Silence wrote:
> >> >> I think the main change should be to force the programmers to sit
> >> through
> >> >> a
> >> >> computer programming course entitled "How to program a Game without
> >> >> making
> >> >> it Freeze all the time!" (I've got the X-box version; I don't know
> >> >> whether
> >> >> the PC version has the same problem or not. And I can't add mods in
> >> my
> >> >> version - bummer, man!)
> >> >>
> >>
> >> No mods is one of the reasons that I've never liked consoles. That and
> >> their pathetic resolution.
> >
> > Xbox 360 will not have pathetic resolution. It's one powerful machine.
> > Maybe not as good resolution wise as a totally new top of the line
> > system, but the differences will be small when one sees Xbox 360 games
> > on an HDTV. And with Xbox Live and the harddrive, some mods may make
> > it onto the consoles in this generation.
> >
>
> That all depends on the compatibility between Construction Set for PC and
> xbox 360.
> The Construction Set will not be released for xbox 360. They will have to
> be made on PCs.
>

This is true, but I was talking more or less official things like
patches and expansions. I don't see how it can't be done though given
how Action Replay saves modded by computers can be used on Xbox without
modding the 'box itself. It all depends on how much people know how to
convert it.
Anonymous
August 14, 2005 4:30:02 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

A little off topic, but the previous comment about "3d everything" fad
just made me feel like shedding another tear for my beloved R-Type and
Gradius games... And then there was what they did to Metroid... ouch.
Don't get me wrong, I loved the first two 3d Zelda games, but they were
about more than being 3D ZELDA GAMES... which I think is the first
point of this whole post. a trend is rarely entirely a good or bad
thing. Pokemon brought a new audience to RPGs, Morrowind brought a new
audience to The Elder Scrolls. A large part of that audience were
casual roleplayers and FPS gamers. Where do you think a lot of the
knowledge of skinning and modifying 3d games game from? and where would
Morrowind be without all those coveted beauty packs? Uglysville.

I wish they'd just lose the completely voiced dialogue. Voice-overs in
video games (games based on movies and voiced by the movie actors
non-withstanding) were a bad idea in the first place. Cuts down so much
on plot elements that it just isn't worth it. In that regard, I think
morrowind was as much of a success in terms of interactive dialogue as
it could have been. The characters talked, but most of the interactive
dialogue was text. What would be cool in Oblivion or other games would
be an evolution on that. let characters talk amongst themselves
audible, heck even have them talk to you, but under no circumstances
should the main character talk... I have never played any Final
Fantasies beyond Nine for this reason alone. I tend to prefer my
imagination to anyone's idea of what player characters should sound
like.

I myself never played Daggerfall and played Arena for the first time
when it became public domain. AFTER I first played Morrowind. As long
as Bethesda never forgets its fans or its roots, I think we'll all be
quite pleased with Oblivion.

R-Type... may ye rest in peace...
August 20, 2005 8:44:53 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

<hayes13@fadmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:1123130830.698773.78690@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Magnus Itland wrote:
>> On 31 Jul 2005 00:40:31 -0700,
<hayes13@fadmail.com> wrote:
>> > Magnus Itland wrote:
>>
>> >> I must say that the toolbox that came with
Morrowind have proved really
>> >> useful. But I also agree that the game lacks
randomness. In Daggerfall
>> >> especially, it would not be possible to write a
traditional walkthrough.
>> >> You could do that with the main quest, but the
main quest was such a
>> >> small
>> >> part of the experience. And you could make the
most improbable
>> >> characters,
>> >> like a linguist with an allergy to certain
metals but able to learn new
>> >> skills at triple speed...
>> >>
>> >> In a way, the Elder Scrolls construction set
for Morrowind is necessary
>> >> to
>> >> bring back some of the randomness that was in
the earlier games. And I
>> >> must admit they've done some really impressive
things with it. In
>> >> fact, I
>> >> am worried that having Oblivion come out this
soon may put a stop to the
>> >> Morrowind mods, and then we will have to start
from scratch again with
>> >> Oblivion. Hopefully this will be the last in
the series, as it was
>> >> planned from the very beginning. For that
reason, I had actually
>> >> expected
>> >> - even hoped - that they would take some more
time making it.
>> >
>> > Why should it be the last? If Oblivion is half
as good as the stuff
>> > out there says it is (with perks being granted
for each skill at
>> > different levels), real physics, NPCs with
actual character and
>> > life-cycles, it should be a vast improvement.
>>
>> The Elder Scrolls was planned to conclude with
Oblivion. But of course
>> they can just make a less dramatic ending than
what has been implied so
>> far, and continue to make new games.
>>
>
> I'd think they'd be dumb to drop it at Oblivion
without seeing where
> sales leads. There's still a lot of places in that
world to explore,
> like Elsweyr and the Black Marsh. I'd like to see
all of Nirn
> eventually.
>
>> As for the game engine improvements, however, you
can always make new
>> improvements. Every 18 months the chips double in
capacity, so things that
>> are impossible this year are possible next year.
So the longer you work
>> until you release a new game, the more stunning it
will be. You need to
>> time it so that you release the new game just
before people are fed up
>> with the old. With all the new content made by
fans, Morrowind could
>> probably have lasted another year, and who knows
what Oblivion could have
>> been by then.
>>
>
> I'm pretty bored with Morrowind, actually. I've
done the MQ more than
> a few times, all factions, the expansions, and
tried many mods.
> Oblivion could be put off for a decade and look a
lot better than it
> would if they put it off a year. From what I've
read and seen of this
> game, I think it's going to be a game that blows
many people away.
> Besides, new single player CRPGs right now are
pretty scarce, with
> Neverwinter Nights 2 being the only other one I'm
looking forward to in
> the forseeable future.
>

There is no need to close the elderscrolls saga
completely. As you said, we haven't been in Elsweyr
or Black Marsh yet. We haven't been at Sumurset
Island
either - or in Hammerfell, for that matter

merlin
August 20, 2005 9:02:24 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

<hayes13@fadmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:1122795852.264152.149870@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Sarah wrote:
>> "Michael W. Ryder" <_mwryder@worldnet.att.net>
wrote in message
>>
news:LNcGe.503848$cg1.176670@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>>
>> > In Arena obtaining one artifact was a major
accomplishment. Also
>> > obtaining a full set of good armor was another
accomplishment. You could
>> > not go into tomb X and obtain a full set of
ebony armor. You had to go to
>> > a very large number of stores buying it piece by
piece.
>>
>> That's one thing that wasn't so great about
Morrowind. Part way through the
>> game, you can practically ignore loot because
there's so much of it.
>>
>> > The graphics in Morrowind are much better, but
that isn't enough. There
>> > needs to be randomness so when you play you
don't automatically go to tomb
>> > X and get ring Y, all at first level. I loved
having to find the rumors
>> > of someone who may know something about an
artifact. Then having to find
>> > the map to the actual location of the artifact.
It could take hours of
>> > playing to get an artifact, rather than minutes.
And you had no idea what
>> > artifacts, if any, you could find.
>>
>> A certain degree of randomness would be nice.
Bethesda tends to recreate
>> the wheel with each game based on comments about
the previous one. Usually,
>> some things are improved and others are worsened.
Daggerfall players
>> complained that the dungeons were too random (a
valid complaint) and that
>> magic was too overpowering (another valid
complaint). So with Morrowind,
>> they cut down on randomness and gimped magic. Now
the pendulum will swing
>> back a little in Oblivion.
>>
>> Can Oblivion be as good as or better than
Morrowind? Yes--I hope it is. I
>> love Morrowind, but there's room for improvement.
>
> I don't think you have much to worry about. It's a
lot larger than
> Morrowind (smaller than Daggerfall) and the NPCs
have life-cycles. The
> main thing I heard it will have less of will be
total number of NPCs,
> but then again most of Morrowind's NPCs simply
stood there, even if you
> went upstairs and looted their house. I'm really
looking forward to
> the stealth aspect.
>
Both in DF and in MW the npc's and guards seems to
have a problem with stairs. It might have presented a
programming problem. And in MW we have used the
'out of sight - out of mind' thing in order to steal
some
object from right under their noses. Maybe the AI
only works on the horisontal level

merlin
Anonymous
August 25, 2005 1:35:10 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.elder-scrolls (More info?)

On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 16:44:53 +0200, Merlin <bech_dokNOSPAM@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>
> <hayes13@fadmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:1123130830.698773.78690@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Magnus Itland wrote:
> >> On 31 Jul 2005 00:40:31 -0700,
> <hayes13@fadmail.com> wrote:
> >> > Magnus Itland wrote:
> >>
> >> >> I must say that the toolbox that came with
> Morrowind have proved really
> >> >> useful. But I also agree that the game lacks
> randomness. In Daggerfall
> >> >> especially, it would not be possible to write a
> traditional walkthrough.
> >> >> You could do that with the main quest, but the
> main quest was such a
> >> >> small
> >> >> part of the experience. And you could make the
> most improbable
> >> >> characters,
> >> >> like a linguist with an allergy to certain
> metals but able to learn new
> >> >> skills at triple speed...
> >> >>
> >> >> In a way, the Elder Scrolls construction set
> for Morrowind is necessary
> >> >> to
> >> >> bring back some of the randomness that was in
> the earlier games. And I
> >> >> must admit they've done some really impressive
> things with it. In
> >> >> fact, I
> >> >> am worried that having Oblivion come out this
> soon may put a stop to the
> >> >> Morrowind mods, and then we will have to start
> from scratch again with
> >> >> Oblivion. Hopefully this will be the last in
> the series, as it was
> >> >> planned from the very beginning. For that
> reason, I had actually
> >> >> expected
> >> >> - even hoped - that they would take some more
> time making it.
> >> >
> >> > Why should it be the last? If Oblivion is half
> as good as the stuff
> >> > out there says it is (with perks being granted
> for each skill at
> >> > different levels), real physics, NPCs with
> actual character and
> >> > life-cycles, it should be a vast improvement.
> >>
> >> The Elder Scrolls was planned to conclude with
> Oblivion. But of course
> >> they can just make a less dramatic ending than
> what has been implied so
> >> far, and continue to make new games.
> >>
> >
> > I'd think they'd be dumb to drop it at Oblivion
> without seeing where
> > sales leads. There's still a lot of places in that
> world to explore,
> > like Elsweyr and the Black Marsh. I'd like to see
> all of Nirn
> > eventually.
> >
> >> As for the game engine improvements, however, you
> can always make new
> >> improvements. Every 18 months the chips double in
> capacity, so things that
> >> are impossible this year are possible next year.
> So the longer you work
> >> until you release a new game, the more stunning it
> will be. You need to
> >> time it so that you release the new game just
> before people are fed up
> >> with the old. With all the new content made by
> fans, Morrowind could
> >> probably have lasted another year, and who knows
> what Oblivion could have
> >> been by then.
> >>
> >
> > I'm pretty bored with Morrowind, actually. I've
> done the MQ more than
> > a few times, all factions, the expansions, and
> tried many mods.
> > Oblivion could be put off for a decade and look a
> lot better than it
> > would if they put it off a year. From what I've
> read and seen of this
> > game, I think it's going to be a game that blows
> many people away.
> > Besides, new single player CRPGs right now are
> pretty scarce, with
> > Neverwinter Nights 2 being the only other one I'm
> looking forward to in
> > the forseeable future.
> >
>
> There is no need to close the elderscrolls saga
> completely. As you said, we haven't been in Elsweyr
> or Black Marsh yet. We haven't been at Sumurset
> Island
> either - or in Hammerfell, for that matter
>
> merlin
>

Nowhere does it say that games set in Tamriel is not a possibility. The
Elderscrolls Saga was set to close with Oblivion. Two different things.
There's loads of lore and backstory for a ton of games. ;) 



--
The turtle moves!
April 8, 2006 1:55:19 AM

played it and it is much better
!