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$10 charge to transfer data to new phone

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Anonymous
November 21, 2004 12:59:25 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Yesterday I migrated to a new phone. I've been with VZW for more than 4
years. They wanted to charge me $10 to transfer the stored information
from my previous phone to the new one. I refused. Seems to me a poor way
to treat long-term cutomers, a real nickel & dime approach.
Anonymous
November 21, 2004 6:02:20 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

In article <10q1ibt19k1b282@corp.supernews.com>,
RWEmerson <foolish_consistency@hobgoblin.com> wrote:

> Yesterday I migrated to a new phone. I've been with VZW for more than
> 4 years. They wanted to charge me $10 to transfer the stored
> information from my previous phone to the new one. I refused. Seems
> to me a poor way to treat long-term cutomers, a real nickel & dime
> approach.

In August my partner upgraded her phone, and the following month, I
upgraded mine. In neither case did Verizon charge us to transfer our
data.

I understand that if you buy a phone from someone other than Verizon,
they charge, though.

--
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush.
Anonymous
November 21, 2004 11:25:07 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

In article <9p0872-ivh.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>,
"Roger Binns" <rogerb@rogerbinns.com> wrote:

> If you think they are overcharging then go to another carrier. If
> you think all the carriers are doing so, then start your own carrier.
> It is actually pretty easy - you start out by using someone else as
> your backend network just as Virgin does with Sprint and Tracfone
> does with AT&T.

You forget one important thing: startup capital.

--
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush.
Related resources
Anonymous
November 21, 2004 11:25:08 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"Michelle Steiner" <michelle@michelle.org> wrote in message news:michelle-44D361.20250721112004@news.west.cox.net...
> In article <9p0872-ivh.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>,
> "Roger Binns" <rogerb@rogerbinns.com> wrote:
>
>> If you think they are overcharging then go to another carrier. If
>> you think all the carriers are doing so, then start your own carrier.
>> It is actually pretty easy - you start out by using someone else as
>> your backend network just as Virgin does with Sprint and Tracfone
>> does with AT&T.
>
> You forget one important thing: startup capital.

Well, if the person doing this does have a genuinely new way of
charging customers that "doesn't need more money" and "isn't wrong
with this world", then I am sure they could find it. Or they
could borrow, potentially even from the customers who I am sure
would appreciate a new way of doing charging.

The (serious!) reality is that if someone did want to start a
new wireless carrier, they could with roughly the same ease as
starting any other business. You don't have to start country
wide and you don't have to have a country wide infrastructure.

But despite all the compliants about Verizon charging and pricing,
I have never seen anyone come up with any better proposal other
than other customers should pay for it.

Roger
Anonymous
November 21, 2004 11:25:58 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"RWEmerson" <foolish_consistency@hobgoblin.com> wrote in message
news:10q1ibt19k1b282@corp.supernews.com...
> Yesterday I migrated to a new phone. I've been with VZW for more than 4
> years. They wanted to charge me $10 to transfer the stored information
> from my previous phone to the new one. I refused. Seems to me a poor way
> to treat long-term cutomers, a real nickel & dime approach.

Agreed. I'd ask to speak to the manager and bet he'd see the foolishness of
the request.

Edw.
Anonymous
November 21, 2004 11:25:59 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

In article <qR6od.8906$Qh3.5156@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>,
Special Ed <spledNOSPAM@NOSPAMyahoo.net> wrote:

> "RWEmerson" <foolish_consistency@hobgoblin.com> wrote in message
> news:10q1ibt19k1b282@corp.supernews.com...
> > Yesterday I migrated to a new phone. I've been with VZW for more than 4
> > years. They wanted to charge me $10 to transfer the stored information
> > from my previous phone to the new one. I refused. Seems to me a poor way
> > to treat long-term cutomers, a real nickel & dime approach.
>
> Agreed. I'd ask to speak to the manager and bet he'd see the foolishness of
> the request.
>
> Edw.
That's Verizon's standard charge. It's a damn ripoff. If you have (or
buy) a data cable, you can use Bitpim to save any and all info from
your old phone into your computer and then reverse the process on your
new phone. Note: not for the faint hearted,
>
>
Anonymous
November 21, 2004 11:26:00 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Previously in alt.cellular.verizon, lasthonest2004
<lasthonest2004@yahoo.com> proclaimed :

>In article <qR6od.8906$Qh3.5156@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>,
>Special Ed <spledNOSPAM@NOSPAMyahoo.net> wrote:
>
>> "RWEmerson" <foolish_consistency@hobgoblin.com> wrote in message
>> news:10q1ibt19k1b282@corp.supernews.com...
>> > Yesterday I migrated to a new phone. I've been with VZW for more than 4
>> > years. They wanted to charge me $10 to transfer the stored information
>> > from my previous phone to the new one. I refused. Seems to me a poor way
>> > to treat long-term cutomers, a real nickel & dime approach.
>>
>> Agreed. I'd ask to speak to the manager and bet he'd see the foolishness of
>> the request.
>>
>> Edw.
>That's Verizon's standard charge. It's a damn ripoff. If you have (or
>buy) a data cable, you can use Bitpim to save any and all info from
>your old phone into your computer and then reverse the process on your
>new phone. Note: not for the faint hearted,
>>
>>

The 9900 can't use Bitpim so when we xferred from Nextel, it was the
only logical and efficient way to transfer from our i730's to the
9900's. But no, the Verizon rep didn't charge us for any of the
transfers.

That's one thing I miss about the Nextel phones. The data cable was
rather inexpensive and there are many different types of freeware
available to down/upload updates/ringtones/wallpaper and phone book
back and from my pc and phone.

Oh that and the volume on the i730s were *loud*. The 9900's
definitely are lacking in the volume department.





__________________________________________________________________________

People are more violently opposed to fur than leather because it's
safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.
-Unknown
__________________________________________________________________________
Remove "die spammers" to email
Anonymous
November 21, 2004 11:26:00 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

In article <g4m772-t5g.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>,
"Roger Binns" <rogerb@rogerbinns.com> wrote:

> > That's Verizon's standard charge. It's a damn ripoff.
>
> They use a software product such as CSS from FutureDial or Data
> Transfer Center from Susteen. The former is $400 and the latter is
> $2.50 per transfer.

When they transfered mine from a V60i to a V710, they plugged both
phones into a box about the size of three packs of cigarettes (using the
proper cables of course) and a few minutes later, the entire phone book
and appointment book had been transferred--the phone numbers even
retained the same quick-dial numbers.

--
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush.
Anonymous
November 22, 2004 1:38:05 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

In article <g06872-bni.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>,
"Roger Binns" <rogerb@rogerbinns.com> wrote:

> The (serious!) reality is that if someone did want to start a new
> wireless carrier, they could with roughly the same ease as starting
> any other business.

No, that's the mythology.

> But despite all the compliants about Verizon charging and pricing, I
> have never seen anyone come up with any better proposal other than
> other customers should pay for it.

Ten bucks to transfer data from one phone to another is simply a ripoff.
It comes to at least $1200 an hour.

--
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush.
Anonymous
November 22, 2004 2:09:46 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"lasthonest2004" <lasthonest2004@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:211120041707139894%lasthonest2004@yahoo.com...
> In article <qR6od.8906$Qh3.5156@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>,
> Special Ed <spledNOSPAM@NOSPAMyahoo.net> wrote:
>
>> "RWEmerson" <foolish_consistency@hobgoblin.com> wrote in message
>> news:10q1ibt19k1b282@corp.supernews.com...
>> > Yesterday I migrated to a new phone. I've been with VZW for more than 4
>> > years. They wanted to charge me $10 to transfer the stored information
>> > from my previous phone to the new one. I refused. Seems to me a poor
>> > way
>> > to treat long-term cutomers, a real nickel & dime approach.
>>
>> Agreed. I'd ask to speak to the manager and bet he'd see the foolishness
>> of
>> the request.
>>
>> Edw.
> That's Verizon's standard charge. It's a damn ripoff. If you have (or
> buy) a data cable, you can use Bitpim to save any and all info from
> your old phone into your computer and then reverse the process on your
> new phone. Note: not for the faint hearted,

That may well be a local market charge. I've been a VZW customer in Atlanta
for many years and have changed phones several times-- always at a company
store and have never been charged. One time, the tech asked me if I wanted a
printout of my phone book while he was doing the transfer and he ran it off
for me as well.

Complain and you'll get it for free!

Edw.
Anonymous
November 22, 2004 2:09:47 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

I also had a company store do this for no charge last week, and I have only
been a Verizon customer for 2 months.

I live in PA and it was the Stroudsburg Mall store that offered to do it
free of charge. They did not even mention that there is usually a charge.

/Spencer


"Special Ed" <spledNOSPAM@NOSPAMyahoo.net> wrote in message
news:_e9od.7996$pK6.1342@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> "lasthonest2004" <lasthonest2004@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:211120041707139894%lasthonest2004@yahoo.com...
> > In article <qR6od.8906$Qh3.5156@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>,
> > Special Ed <spledNOSPAM@NOSPAMyahoo.net> wrote:
> >
> >> "RWEmerson" <foolish_consistency@hobgoblin.com> wrote in message
> >> news:10q1ibt19k1b282@corp.supernews.com...
> >> > Yesterday I migrated to a new phone. I've been with VZW for more than
4
> >> > years. They wanted to charge me $10 to transfer the stored
information
> >> > from my previous phone to the new one. I refused. Seems to me a poor
> >> > way
> >> > to treat long-term cutomers, a real nickel & dime approach.
> >>
> >> Agreed. I'd ask to speak to the manager and bet he'd see the
foolishness
> >> of
> >> the request.
> >>
> >> Edw.
> > That's Verizon's standard charge. It's a damn ripoff. If you have (or
> > buy) a data cable, you can use Bitpim to save any and all info from
> > your old phone into your computer and then reverse the process on your
> > new phone. Note: not for the faint hearted,
>
> That may well be a local market charge. I've been a VZW customer in
Atlanta
> for many years and have changed phones several times-- always at a company
> store and have never been charged. One time, the tech asked me if I wanted
a
> printout of my phone book while he was doing the transfer and he ran it
off
> for me as well.
>
> Complain and you'll get it for free!
>
> Edw.
>
>
Anonymous
November 22, 2004 10:08:12 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Heh, heh, heh: As an agent, I don't have the tools to transfer the
information; and those clients who do an update I tell them this:
1) - go to the store, and have the information transfered. If they say
there is a charge, accept it, although many times they won't.
2) - a simple phone call, after the transfer is complete, *611, and explain
the situation to customer service, and more likely then not, they'll see the
charge on your bill and reverse it.

NOW: that was the easy part. In My Opion: the more difficult part is that
we are becoming lazy. If we have in fact changed phones and need this
information transfered, then shouldn't we pay for it? The machine to do it
costs $3000. No need to pass the charge to everyone; but it is very fair to
charge those people that "use the benefit" to pay something for it. We are
getting a tad bit lazy that we expect everything for nothing. If we
continue to drive "value given" without "value paid" then we'll see more
jobs pushed to India. If you aren't willing to pay for it... then change
the numbers yourself. If your time is so valuable that you want someone
else to do it.... buy a $3000 machine OR pay the $10. and say you got good
value for your money.

the dr.

"RWEmerson" <foolish_consistency@hobgoblin.com> wrote in message
news:10q1ibt19k1b282@corp.supernews.com...
> Yesterday I migrated to a new phone. I've been with VZW for more than 4
> years. They wanted to charge me $10 to transfer the stored information
> from my previous phone to the new one. I refused. Seems to me a poor way
> to treat long-term cutomers, a real nickel & dime approach.
Anonymous
November 22, 2004 11:29:06 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

In article <0ns3q057mosgmhfpce89hk64o8c7s4jp3h@4ax.com>,
Mark Tetrault <mdtetrault@highstream.net> wrote:

> >> I remember with gas was .$89 /gal.
> >
> >I remember when high test gas was thirty-six cents a gallon.
>
> I can remember when it was $.18 during the gas wars of the 60s.

Those gas wars didn't hit where I was living.

But if you can remember the 60s, you weren't there.

--
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush.
Anonymous
November 22, 2004 11:44:00 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

In article <Dogod.22989$Rf1.13275@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com>,
"dr.wireMORE" <dr.wireMORE@VZW-MidWESTma.com> wrote:

> I disagree: Pay for value received.

What about overpaying>?

> Skip the ATM, go to the bank.

If there's a branch conveniently available.

> Don't like gas prices, boycot the company, buy a new bike.

A bike is often impractical, for a variety of reasons, e.g., distance,
carrying capacity, passenger capacity, etc.

> Nothing for free anymore...

Oh, there's still quite a bit for free, but in general, no one's been
asking for everything for free.

> Oh, you want them to put an ATM out there for you for YOUR
> convenience? If you (the user) doesn't pay for it, then who should.

Keep in mind that ATM fees are charged only when you use one that's not
from your own bank--and you get charged at both ends: by the instituton
that owns the ATM and by your own bank. Further, some banks now charge
for not using the ATM; you pay a fee for using the teller instead of the
ATM.

> I'm a fan of paying a "fair" price for "value received.

So you think that $10 is a fair price for a five minute process of
transferring data from one phone to another, considering that the
equipment used is not expensive at all? Besides, offering the transfer
for free will increase sales of phone upgrades? "You mean that I'll
have to pay another ten bucks to transfer my phone numbers to the new
phone? No thanks, I'll just keep this one."

> I'm not going to pay for your "free service", I'll just go to the
> bank, save the ATM convenience fees.

Your time, and the wear and tear on your bike must not be worth all that
much.

--
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush.
Anonymous
November 22, 2004 11:45:19 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

In article <vfgod.22988$Rf1.13886@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com>,
"dr.wireMORE" <dr.wireMORE@VZW-MidWESTma.com> wrote:

> NOW: that was the easy part. In My Opion: the more difficult part is
> that we are becoming lazy. If we have in fact changed phones and
> need this information transfered, then shouldn't we pay for it? The
> machine to do it costs $3000.

Baloney!

--
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush.
Anonymous
November 22, 2004 12:58:29 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Michelle Steiner wrote:
>
>> I disagree: Pay for value received.
>
> What about overpaying>?

Market determines that doesn't it?

>> Skip the ATM, go to the bank.
>
> If there's a branch conveniently available.

So convenience doesn't count for value? and
carries a zero price?

>> Don't like gas prices, boycot the company, buy a new bike.
>
> A bike is often impractical, for a variety of reasons, e.g., distance,
> carrying capacity, passenger capacity, etc.

Again a matter of convenience. I know a number of people that
manage to live, not only acceptably, but pretty high off the hog
and don't own a vehicle.

>> Oh, you want them to put an ATM out there for you for YOUR
>> convenience? If you (the user) doesn't pay for it, then who should.
>
> Keep in mind that ATM fees are charged only when you use one that's
> not from your own bank--and you get charged at both ends: by the
> instituton that owns the ATM and by your own bank. Further, some
> banks now charge for not using the ATM; you pay a fee for using the
> teller instead of the ATM.

So, what's your point? They run a business and have charges for various
services. Gets back to the free market doesn't it? My bank charges for
most everything. Other smaller banks don't. My bank has an ATM in
the cafeteria at work and *everywhere* else. I am willing to pay some
of the extra charges for that.

>> I'm a fan of paying a "fair" price for "value received.
>
> So you think that $10 is a fair price for a five minute process of
> transferring data from one phone to another, considering that the
> equipment used is not expensive at all? Besides, offering the
> transfer for free will increase sales of phone upgrades? "You mean
> that I'll have to pay another ten bucks to transfer my phone numbers
> to the new phone? No thanks, I'll just keep this one."

[and from a previous post]
> Ten bucks to transfer data from one phone to another is simply a ripoff.
> It comes to at least $1200 an hour.

You're being silly. Here is a good example:
My kids and their friends decided to do the traditional lemonade
stand in the front yard (being current, they also decided to sell their
excess Yugio cards). I made them itemize all their supplies and
cost. Time spent setting up and having someone man the stand.
I charged them the price of 1 lemonade to use the kitchen to make
it, 1 more for the space used in the refrigerator to store the product,
and 1 more for the yard space (they figured they would just go do it
at their friend's house but that was a no go). They sold 4 lemonades.
Older sister bought 1. My wife and I bought 1 each. Their friend's mom
bought 1 when she came over to call them for dinner. Sold 0 Yugio cards.
A good number of people went by. They were not selling lemonades
each and every minute they sat out there. *big* loss...

You get the idea... There is more than the price of the equipment and
the hourly rate to consider.

What percentage of new-phone customers transfer their stuff?
What percentage of customers expect to transfer their stuff?
If the data transfer doesn't work are you going to transfer it manually?
If the customer doesn't want to wait are you still going to charge anyway
since it took you time to try?

-Quick
Anonymous
November 22, 2004 1:07:22 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Michelle Steiner wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> So you think that $10 is a fair price for a five minute process of
> transferring data from one phone to another, considering that the
> equipment used is not expensive at all?

I'm sorry, but didn't you say, earlier, that "Ten bucks to transfer
data from one phone to another is simply a ripoff. It comes to at
least $1200 an hour?"

My math says this is equal to $120 per hour, a price that isn't
totally out of the ballpark

Notan
Anonymous
November 22, 2004 2:35:40 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"Roger Binns" <rogerb@rogerbinns.com> wrote in message
news:g06872-bni.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com...
>
> "Michelle Steiner" <michelle@michelle.org> wrote in message
> news:michelle-44D361.20250721112004@news.west.cox.net...
>> In article <9p0872-ivh.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>,
>> "Roger Binns" <rogerb@rogerbinns.com> wrote:
>>
>>> If you think they are overcharging then go to another carrier. If
>>> you think all the carriers are doing so, then start your own
>>> carrier.
>>> It is actually pretty easy - you start out by using someone else
>>> as
>>> your backend network just as Virgin does with Sprint and Tracfone
>>> does with AT&T.
>>
>> You forget one important thing: startup capital.
>
> Well, if the person doing this does have a genuinely new way of
> charging customers that "doesn't need more money" and "isn't wrong
> with this world", then I am sure they could find it. Or they
> could borrow, potentially even from the customers who I am sure
> would appreciate a new way of doing charging.
>
> The (serious!) reality is that if someone did want to start a
> new wireless carrier, they could with roughly the same ease as
> starting any other business. You don't have to start country
> wide and you don't have to have a country wide infrastructure.
>
> But despite all the compliants about Verizon charging and pricing,
> I have never seen anyone come up with any better proposal other
> than other customers should pay for it.
>
> Roger
>

The problem with a start up Cellular service is that it will cost
hundreds of thousands of dollars just to buy air rights and they are
not cheap. They are not always available and even then they are leased
if I understand the process.

A person with a hot dog stand can make more :-) In fact I was thinking
of doing that after I retire in a few years. Nice hotdog with cold
soda $2 and I would be making a profit on each sale. Pound of Hot Dogs
wholesale $1 and a case of assorted no name soda $4 which means huge
profit potential.

I could use my cell phone to order more hot dogs :-)

Elector
November 22, 2004 2:35:41 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"Elector" <elector@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:gakod.10298$AL5.5675@twister.nyroc.rr.com...

> The problem with a start up Cellular service is that it will cost
> hundreds of thousands of dollars just to buy air rights and they are
> not cheap. They are not always available and even then they are leased
> if I understand the process.

You are off by a few decimal places. Didn't VZW just pay a little short of a
billion dollars to get some PCS channels for the NYC metro area?




>
> A person with a hot dog stand can make more :-) In fact I was thinking
> of doing that after I retire in a few years. Nice hotdog with cold
> soda $2 and I would be making a profit on each sale. Pound of Hot Dogs
> wholesale $1 and a case of assorted no name soda $4 which means huge
> profit potential.
>
> I could use my cell phone to order more hot dogs :-)
>
> Elector
>
>
Anonymous
November 22, 2004 2:35:41 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"Elector" <elector@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:gakod.10298$AL5.5675@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> The problem with a start up Cellular service is that it will cost hundreds of thousands of dollars just to buy air rights and they
> are not cheap. They are not always available and even then they are leased if I understand the process.

Both you and Michelle ignored what I said in the first post. You do not
need to build any infrastructure or obtain any air rights at the begining.
You use someone else's network just as Virgin does with Sprint and
Tracfone does with AT&T.

Roger
Anonymous
November 22, 2004 2:35:42 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Roger Binns wrote:
> "Elector" <elector@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:gakod.10298$AL5.5675@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
>
>>The problem with a start up Cellular service is that it will cost hundreds of thousands of dollars just to buy air rights and they
>>are not cheap. They are not always available and even then they are leased if I understand the process.
>
>
> Both you and Michelle ignored what I said in the first post. You do not
> need to build any infrastructure or obtain any air rights at the begining.
> You use someone else's network just as Virgin does with Sprint and
> Tracfone does with AT&T.

You still have to build market share, buy phones, get your product into retail
stores, etc.


--
JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JustThe.net/
Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) / sjsobol@JustThe.net
PGP Key available from your friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED)
Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three kids.
Anonymous
November 22, 2004 2:41:55 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"dr.wireMORE" <dr.wireMORE@VZW-MidWESTma.com> wrote in message
news:vfgod.22988$Rf1.13886@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...
> Heh, heh, heh: As an agent, I don't have the tools to transfer the
> information; and those clients who do an update I tell them this:
> 1) - go to the store, and have the information transfered. If they
> say there is a charge, accept it, although many times they won't.
> 2) - a simple phone call, after the transfer is complete, *611, and
> explain the situation to customer service, and more likely then not,
> they'll see the charge on your bill and reverse it.
>
> NOW: that was the easy part. In My Opion: the more difficult part
> is that we are becoming lazy. If we have in fact changed phones and
> need this information transfered, then shouldn't we pay for it? The
> machine to do it costs $3000. No need to pass the charge to
> everyone; but it is very fair to charge those people that "use the
> benefit" to pay something for it. We are getting a tad bit lazy
> that we expect everything for nothing. If we continue to drive
> "value given" without "value paid" then we'll see more jobs pushed
> to India. If you aren't willing to pay for it... then change the
> numbers yourself. If your time is so valuable that you want someone
> else to do it.... buy a $3000 machine OR pay the $10. and say you
> got good value for your money.
>
> the dr.
>


I agree with your two posts on this point, but have another venue for
this. When your service phone is upgraded the costs associated with
transfer could be added in and the customer would never know the
difference. Sort of like the fees the state and local governments tack
on to your services every day.

I have never been asked to pay for a telephone address book to my old
to my new. However on a few occasions the $3,000.00 machine was not
able to transfer from a star tac to a LG or [Insert any brand name
here].

I would be mad if I paid $3G for the machine and it did not work on
all models.

Just a thought

Elector
Anonymous
November 22, 2004 7:15:40 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Michelle: I noted "fair price" for "fair value". I agree over-charging
isn't fair. $10 for a 5 minute job, hummm.
- $4.66 (labor only) men's haircut: $14, done in fifteen minutes or less
- $7.08 (labor only) Chevy technician to "analyze" a problem, $85/hr
- $20.00 (labor only) make a pizza, 2 minutes, cost you from $5-$20 for a
large
And what about the $3000 machine.

I started rambling and deleted it. Your point isn't that there is a fee
(sometimes waived) but how much the fee is. Is $10 fair? I don' tknow. I
guess it depends. Me, I pay the fee and call CS and have it reversed. It
used to be free.... now they charge. This is the eternal battle of flat-fee
to all; or those that use a service pay for it. And then how much. So, I
agree with Michelle, over-charging isn't fair. And I leave it to her to
decide what is fair. Me, I'm going to go ride my bike...(not)

Editorial: If you bought a $3,000 machine that is used occassionally, by a
"few" of your customers. Do you raise ALL of your prices for this
investment, or just charge the people who use it? How much would be fair?
You trained someone (actually the whole staff) to use it, bought the special
cabels to make it work, how much would you charge for 5 minutes of using it?
Try $10, and if people pay it, the price must be just right. If a lot of
people complain (to Verizon), then maybe it is too much, and you should
re-think the policy. Make your voice known, call VZW and tell em the charge
it too HIGH or too LOW. That would be a good investment of time... me
thinks. And to phone upgrades? I've not seen one person make a phone
decision based on the ease of moving their numbers from their old phone to
the new phone. But it could be a factor; I just don't think it is much of
one. Overcharging (NO) fair charging (YES) & what is fair Michele will
tell us. dr

"Michelle Steiner" <michelle@michelle.org> wrote in message
news:michelle-ABD5FA.08440022112004@news.west.cox.net...
<snip>
> What about overpaying>?
<snip>
> So you think that $10 is a fair price for a five minute process of
> transferring data from one phone to another, considering that the
> equipment used is not expensive at all? Besides, offering the transfer
> for free will increase sales of phone upgrades? "You mean that I'll
> have to pay another ten bucks to transfer my phone numbers to the new
> phone? No thanks, I'll just keep this one."
Anonymous
November 22, 2004 7:15:41 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

In article <Mgood.28759$5b1.13751@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com>,
"dr.wireMORE" <dr.wireMORE@VZW-MidWESTma.com> wrote:

> I started rambling and deleted it. Your point isn't that there is a
> fee (sometimes waived) but how much the fee is. Is $10 fair? I don'
> tknow. I guess it depends. Me, I pay the fee and call CS and have it
> reversed. It used to be free.... now they charge.

They don't charge everywhere. In August, they didn't charge my
girlfriend; in September, they didn't charge me. Not only didn't they
charge; we didn't have to ask them to do it--they offered to do it.

I seriously doubt that that box costs ten grand. I doubt that it costs
more than $100. And I doubt that those cables (about six inches long
with a standard phone plug at one end, and matching plugs for the
various phones at the other) cost all that much either.

Tell you what: Next time I'm at my local Verizon store, I'll ask how
much that box cost them. The worst they can do is refuse to tell me.

--
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush.
Anonymous
November 22, 2004 7:15:42 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"Michelle Steiner" <michelle@michelle.org> wrote in message news:michelle-4EC94E.09391522112004@news.west.cox.net...
> I seriously doubt that that box costs ten grand. I doubt that it costs
> more than $100. And I doubt that those cables (about six inches long
> with a standard phone plug at one end, and matching plugs for the
> various phones at the other) cost all that much either.

I posted prices yesterday. From FutureDial, the software and some cables
is $400. It is $20-$30 for additional cables. That also requires a PC
to run it off of. (The station the dr refers to is effectively a PC with
the software preloaded and cables connected).

The software from Susteen is $2.50 per sync, and includes some cables.

Once you take into account the time (don't forget sometimes it fails,
users complain etc which can drastically alter the time needed by an
employee) as well as the building space etc, $10 is the right order
of magnitude.

The statistic I don't know, and what greatly affects the fairness of
this calculation is how often people change phones or bring them in
from other carriers. The greater this number, the less the charge
would need to be for a phonebook transfer to recover costs.

Roger
Anonymous
November 22, 2004 9:05:23 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"Michelle Steiner" <michelle@michelle.org> wrote in message
news:michelle-C621A7.22380521112004@news.west.cox.net...
> In article <g06872-bni.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>,
> "Roger Binns" <rogerb@rogerbinns.com> wrote:
>
>> The (serious!) reality is that if someone did want to start a new
>> wireless carrier, they could with roughly the same ease as starting
>> any other business.
>
> No, that's the mythology.
>
>> But despite all the compliants about Verizon charging and pricing, I
>> have never seen anyone come up with any better proposal other than
>> other customers should pay for it.
>
> Ten bucks to transfer data from one phone to another is simply a ripoff.
> It comes to at least $1200 an hour.


I think $10 is an appropriate price. The question you didn't ask of
yourself is ... what is Michelle's time worth? If you've got about 100
phone numbers with many of them having email addresses too (SMS texting),
then how long is it going to take you to manually re-enter all that stuff
into a new phone? An hour? How much do you get paid at work? A person
receiving $17 per hour really costs his employer nearly $28 per hour total.

--

- Philip
Anonymous
November 22, 2004 9:12:47 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"Michelle Steiner" <michelle@michelle.org> wrote in message
news:michelle-6BDDDF.08290622112004@news.west.cox.net...
> In article <0ns3q057mosgmhfpce89hk64o8c7s4jp3h@4ax.com>,
> Mark Tetrault <mdtetrault@highstream.net> wrote:
>
>> >> I remember with gas was .$89 /gal.
>> >
>> >I remember when high test gas was thirty-six cents a gallon.
>>
>> I can remember when it was $.18 during the gas wars of the 60s.
>
> Those gas wars didn't hit where I was living.
>
> But if you can remember the 60s, you weren't there.
>

I remember regular at $0.18 per gallon in Los Angeles ... what's that get
me?
--

- Philip
Anonymous
November 22, 2004 10:10:25 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Not to be rude..... but...

Michelle, how the F#@! would you know what it costs?
I was a regional Service Manager for a carrier for many years.
This stuff is proprietary. Most of it costs major $$.
You would be shocked at just what 'bench' equipment costs.


"Michelle Steiner" <michelle@michelle.org> wrote in message news:michelle-6070F0.08451922112004@news.west.cox.net...
> In article <vfgod.22988$Rf1.13886@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com>,
> "dr.wireMORE" <dr.wireMORE@VZW-MidWESTma.com> wrote:
>
>> NOW: that was the easy part. In My Opion: the more difficult part is
>> that we are becoming lazy. If we have in fact changed phones and
>> need this information transfered, then shouldn't we pay for it? The
>> machine to do it costs $3000.
>
> Baloney!
>
> --
> Stop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush.
Anonymous
November 22, 2004 11:05:36 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"RWEmerson" <foolish_consistency@hobgoblin.com> wrote in message
news:10q1ibt19k1b282@corp.supernews.com...
> Yesterday I migrated to a new phone. I've been with VZW for more than 4
> years. They wanted to charge me $10 to transfer the stored information
> from my previous phone to the new one. I refused. Seems to me a poor way
> to treat long-term cutomers, a real nickel & dime approach.

I have years of experience moving my own phonebooks from phone to phone.
I've re-entered all 100 plus numbers several times by hand. And yes, what
a pain.

OK, let's assume you buy data cables for both phones and appropriate
software to move the phone book. Chances are the future dial cables
and software required for two phones will exceed $60. In additon, having
done this process multiple times over, can say it isn't for novices.

Let's see, you have serial port issues, and then you need a legal copy of
Microsoft Outlook to be the "conduit" for the phonebook. Then you
need to sometimes "message" the data by importing into Excel, eliminating
extraneous data fields put there by Outlook automatically, then re-
importing the phone book.

I've done this process quite a few times, spent hundreds of dollars
in data cables, and untold hours of grief getting it to work properly
between different and incompatible pieces of vendor supplies software.

For me, I'd gladly pay Verizon $10 to avoid the hassle, or I'd be happy
that I have the choice to find my own way (which is my normal way too)

-Dan
Anonymous
November 22, 2004 11:21:19 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"Michelle Steiner" <michelle@michelle.org> wrote in message
news:michelle-1ABA39.19161721112004@news.west.cox.net...

> Stop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush.

Time to give it up Michelle-- your boy got whupped. Ever heard of being a
gracious loser?

Edw.
Anonymous
November 22, 2004 11:21:20 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

AMEN!!!!

And Michael Moore is a truthful and honest 'documentary' maker.....

NOT!!!

To some, reality is a foreign concept.



"Special Ed" <chasham97NOSPAM@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message news:3Trod.8728$pK6.2403@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
> "Michelle Steiner" <michelle@michelle.org> wrote in message news:michelle-1ABA39.19161721112004@news.west.cox.net...
>
>> Stop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush.
>
> Time to give it up Michelle-- your boy got whupped. Ever heard of being a gracious loser?
>
> Edw.
>
Anonymous
November 23, 2004 1:41:27 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"Richard Ness"

| Not to be rude..... but...
|
| Michelle, how the F#@! would you know what it costs?
| I was a regional Service Manager for a carrier for many years.
| This stuff is proprietary. Most of it costs major $$.
| You would be shocked at just what 'bench' equipment costs.

Richard,

Not to be rude ..... but

before I retired I was US lead engineer for a major international
manufacturer ... while it might be proprietary the cost of the hardware and
software to make the transfer is trivial.
Anonymous
November 23, 2004 1:48:33 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"Not Me"

| "Richard Ness"
|
| | Not to be rude..... but...
| |
| | Michelle, how the F#@! would you know what it costs?
| | I was a regional Service Manager for a carrier for many years.
| | This stuff is proprietary. Most of it costs major $$.
| | You would be shocked at just what 'bench' equipment costs.
|
| Richard,
|
| Not to be rude ..... but
|
| before I retired I was US lead engineer for a major international
| manufacturer ... while it might be proprietary the cost of the hardware
and
| software to make the transfer is trivial.

I forgot to mention that Verizon (and all the other carries) get the
hardware and software for free as part of the spiff to buy the phones. The
only requirement is for the carrier to sign a non-disclosure agreement.
Anonymous
November 23, 2004 2:02:09 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"Steve Sobol" <sjsobol@JustThe.net> wrote in message news:cnt967$mjb$2@ratbert.glorb.com...
> You still have to build market share, buy phones, get your product into retail stores, etc.

That depends on how you want to sell it, and is still considerably cheaper
than buying sprectrum rights and building out a network before you have
your first customer.

There is no major impediment to building such a business, over and above
any other similar kind of business.

Note that I *do not* think there is really any different way of charging
etc. But I am challenging the people who say the status quo is not
acceptable to change carriers, or to start a business that is different
and showing how they can do so.

Roger
Anonymous
November 23, 2004 2:03:44 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"Not Me" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message news:30fq8nF30isu7U1@uni-berlin.de...
> I forgot to mention that Verizon (and all the other carries) get the
> hardware and software for free as part of the spiff to buy the phones. The
> only requirement is for the carrier to sign a non-disclosure agreement.

So who is the NDA with for equipment that can copy from an LG phone to
a Motorola phone?

Roger
Anonymous
November 23, 2004 7:20:45 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

To all: an update. My "mistake" the copying machine wasn't $3000, but only
$650. (off my bottom line, and per store I might add). Pardon for
overstating the costs... because I don't have one, I send my customers to
the corporate store :-)
Dear dr,

Attached please find the information you requested regarding the UME Phone
Synchronization System. The price of the UME System, including all
connectors/data cables (approximately 60 cables), for all currently
supported cellular phones is $650.00 (the Verizon Wireless volume discount).
As new phones come onto the market new cables are $35 each. The UME System
comes with a one year warranty.

<snip>
Cellebrite USA Corp.

NOT TRYING TO SELL THEIR PRODUCT, BUT PUTTING TO BED HOW MUCH ONE UNIT
COSTS. OUCH, $35 FOR NEW CABLES (per phone)

"Michelle Steiner" <michelle@michelle.org> wrote in message
news:michelle-4EC94E.09391522112004@news.west.cox.net...
> In article <Mgood.28759$5b1.13751@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com>,
> "dr.wireMORE" <dr.wireMORE@VZW-MidWESTma.com> wrote:
<snip>
> I seriously doubt that that box costs ten grand. I doubt that it costs
> more than $100. And I doubt that those cables (about six inches long
> with a standard phone plug at one end, and matching plugs for the
> various phones at the other) cost all that much either.
<snip>
Anonymous
November 24, 2004 10:58:14 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"Richard Ness" <richardno@damnspam.nessnet.com> wrote in message
news:AKKdnRnw5JdoOj_cRVn-jQ@comcast.com...
> AMEN!!!!
>
> And Michael Moore is a truthful and honest 'documentary' maker.....
>
> NOT!!!
>
> To some, reality is a foreign concept.
>
>
>
> "Special Ed" <chasham97NOSPAM@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3Trod.8728$pK6.2403@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> >
> > "Michelle Steiner" <michelle@michelle.org> wrote in message
news:michelle-1ABA39.19161721112004@news.west.cox.net...
> >
> >> Stop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush.
> >
> > Time to give it up Michelle-- your boy got whupped. Ever heard of being
a gracious loser?
> >
> > Edw.
> >
>
>
ya he won blah blah. Problem is, so many have lost. Please be around when we
get to say "I told you so" which was done often in the first 4 years.
Stick with it Michelle. I've yet to see a "gracious" red stater....win OR
lose.
Anonymous
November 24, 2004 10:58:15 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

It is VERY fortunate that I am not saying the same to you, (4 years)
I am SO thankful that we aren't being subjected to 4 years of Kerry.
I shudder just thinking about it.

There are so many reasons why, but you will not ever see any of them
because of your liberal 'blinders'. So, I will 'shrug' and continue to be
VERY thankful that the majority of voters didn't have acute cranial rectitis.


"R.l.P.---U.S.A." <bush_intelligence_gap@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:30kp16F31cf37U1@uni-berlin.de...
>>
> ya he won blah blah. Problem is, so many have lost. Please be around when we
> get to say "I told you so" which was done often in the first 4 years.
> Stick with it Michelle. I've yet to see a "gracious" red stater....win OR
> lose.
>
>
Anonymous
November 24, 2004 11:41:09 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"Richard Ness" <richardno@damnspam.nessnet.com> wrote in message
news:o ZKdnQjAu74JqzjcRVn-gw@comcast.com...
> It is VERY fortunate that I am not saying the same to you, (4 years)
> I am SO thankful that we aren't being subjected to 4 years of Kerry.
> I shudder just thinking about it.
>
> There are so many reasons why, but you will not ever see any of them
> because of your liberal 'blinders'. So, I will 'shrug' and continue to be
> VERY thankful that the majority of voters didn't have acute cranial
rectitis.
>
>
> "R.l.P.---U.S.A." <bush_intelligence_gap@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:30kp16F31cf37U1@uni-berlin.de...
> >>
> > ya he won blah blah. Problem is, so many have lost. Please be around
when we
> > get to say "I told you so" which was done often in the first 4 years.
> > Stick with it Michelle. I've yet to see a "gracious" red stater....win
OR
> > lose.
> >
> >
>
>
LOL Shudder? Real men don't "shudder." There is no such thing as the Dick
Ness Monster. Run along now. Plonk your silly ass. No time for mutts.
Anonymous
November 25, 2004 12:57:38 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"Roger Binns" <rogerb@rogerbinns.com> wrote in message
news:2f4b72-d66.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com...
|
| "Not Me" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:30fq8nF30isu7U1@uni-berlin.de...
| > I forgot to mention that Verizon (and all the other carries) get the
| > hardware and software for free as part of the spiff to buy the phones.
The
| > only requirement is for the carrier to sign a non-disclosure agreement.
|
| So who is the NDA with for equipment that can copy from an LG phone to
| a Motorola phone?

Typically NDA's in one form or the other are required by all manufactures
for the interface to their specific equipment. VZN can be down load data
from an NEC (under the NDA supplied hardware/software which includes pin
outs) but not up loaded to a Motorola unless VZN also has an NDA and the
required hardware/soft ware). All said and done it's not imposable for a
third part to do the reverse engineering and supply hardware/software as
well. The only hitch there is they make their money from that
hardware/software and are unlikely to give it away as might be the case with
an OEM.

FWIW one of the reasons I was hired (back in the '80s) in the first place
was that I had backward engineered the product, the company found out and
wanted to know how I did it.
Anonymous
November 25, 2004 2:25:25 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

In news:30l058F31bmktU1@uni-berlin.de,
Not Me <me@privacy.net> typed:
> "Roger Binns" <rogerb@rogerbinns.com> wrote in message
> news:2f4b72-d66.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com...
>>
>> "Not Me" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:30fq8nF30isu7U1@uni-berlin.de...
>>> I forgot to mention that Verizon (and all the other carries) get the
>>> hardware and software for free as part of the spiff to buy the
>>> phones. The only requirement is for the carrier to sign a
>>> non-disclosure agreement.
>>
>> So who is the NDA with for equipment that can copy from an LG phone
>> to a Motorola phone?
>
> Typically NDA's in one form or the other are required by all
> manufactures for the interface to their specific equipment. VZN can
> be down load data from an NEC (under the NDA supplied
> hardware/software which includes pin outs) but not up loaded to a
> Motorola unless VZN also has an NDA and the required hardware/soft
> ware). All said and done it's not imposable for a third part to do
> the reverse engineering and supply hardware/software as well. The
> only hitch there is they make their money from that hardware/software
> and are unlikely to give it away as might be the case with an OEM.
>
> FWIW one of the reasons I was hired (back in the '80s) in the first
> place was that I had backward engineered the product, the company
> found out and wanted to know how I did it.

The mfgr supplied NDA will work with a specific phone to program it with new
software. It can also download information from the specific phone and to
upload it to that same phone.

Converting the information downloaded from one phone using the NDA supplied
by the mfgr to the structure required by a different phone so it can then be
uploaded using the NDA supplied by it's mfgr still requires software which
knows the structure of the information for all phones from all mfgrs.
Anonymous
November 25, 2004 2:46:32 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"IMHO"

| >>> I forgot to mention that Verizon (and all the other carries) get the
| >>> hardware and software for free as part of the spiff to buy the
| >>> phones. The only requirement is for the carrier to sign a
| >>> non-disclosure agreement.
| >>
| >> So who is the NDA with for equipment that can copy from an LG phone
| >> to a Motorola phone?
| >
| > Typically NDA's in one form or the other are required by all
| > manufactures for the interface to their specific equipment. VZN can
| > be down load data from an NEC (under the NDA supplied
| > hardware/software which includes pin outs) but not up loaded to a
| > Motorola unless VZN also has an NDA and the required hardware/soft
| > ware). All said and done it's not imposable for a third part to do
| > the reverse engineering and supply hardware/software as well. The
| > only hitch there is they make their money from that hardware/software
| > and are unlikely to give it away as might be the case with an OEM.
| >
| > FWIW one of the reasons I was hired (back in the '80s) in the first
| > place was that I had backward engineered the product, the company
| > found out and wanted to know how I did it.
|
| The mfgr supplied NDA will work with a specific phone to program it with
new
| software. It can also download information from the specific phone and to
| upload it to that same phone.
|
| Converting the information downloaded from one phone using the NDA
supplied
| by the mfgr to the structure required by a different phone so it can then
be
| uploaded using the NDA supplied by it's mfgr still requires software which
| knows the structure of the information for all phones from all mfgrs.

Once the data (including the format) from company one is known (usually in
one or more of the standard data formats such as comma delaminated) and the
required format for the recipient device of company two it is a trivial
matter to make the conversion.

As example data from Quicken can be exported to one of the standard formats
and uploaded to MS money via the same method. While it is possible for a
manufacture to use a non standard format that involves a lot of extra work
to little if any profit. This is especially so when the carrier customer
often specifies how the data will be presented as part of the RFQ.
Anonymous
November 25, 2004 2:46:33 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Not Me wrote:
>
> "IMHO"
>
> | >>> I forgot to mention that Verizon (and all the other carries) get the
> | >>> hardware and software for free as part of the spiff to buy the
> | >>> phones. The only requirement is for the carrier to sign a
> | >>> non-disclosure agreement.
> | >>
> | >> So who is the NDA with for equipment that can copy from an LG phone
> | >> to a Motorola phone?
> | >
> | > Typically NDA's in one form or the other are required by all
> | > manufactures for the interface to their specific equipment. VZN can
> | > be down load data from an NEC (under the NDA supplied
> | > hardware/software which includes pin outs) but not up loaded to a
> | > Motorola unless VZN also has an NDA and the required hardware/soft
> | > ware). All said and done it's not imposable for a third part to do
> | > the reverse engineering and supply hardware/software as well. The
> | > only hitch there is they make their money from that hardware/software
> | > and are unlikely to give it away as might be the case with an OEM.
> | >
> | > FWIW one of the reasons I was hired (back in the '80s) in the first
> | > place was that I had backward engineered the product, the company
> | > found out and wanted to know how I did it.
> |
> | The mfgr supplied NDA will work with a specific phone to program it with
> new
> | software. It can also download information from the specific phone and to
> | upload it to that same phone.
> |
> | Converting the information downloaded from one phone using the NDA
> supplied
> | by the mfgr to the structure required by a different phone so it can then
> be
> | uploaded using the NDA supplied by it's mfgr still requires software which
> | knows the structure of the information for all phones from all mfgrs.
>
> Once the data (including the format) from company one is known (usually in
> one or more of the standard data formats such as comma delaminated) and the
> required format for the recipient device of company two it is a trivial
> matter to make the conversion.
>
> As example data from Quicken can be exported to one of the standard formats
> and uploaded to MS money via the same method. While it is possible for a
> manufacture to use a non standard format that involves a lot of extra work
> to little if any profit. This is especially so when the carrier customer
> often specifies how the data will be presented as part of the RFQ.

"comma delaminated?"

You've been hanging around the alt.wood forums, haven't you? <g>

Have a Happy Thanksgiving!

Notan
Anonymous
November 25, 2004 3:32:03 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"Notan" <notan@ddress.com> wrote in message
news:41A60DB7.203520E@ddress.com...
|
<snip>

| "comma delaminated?"
|
| You've been hanging around the alt.wood forums, haven't you? <g>
|
| Have a Happy Thanksgiving!

LOL -- I wonder why Red Green never use that one. <g>. FWIW I had open
heart surgery a while back and where I once could do business in four
language I'm having problems with (simple?) English. Still not a bad
outcome, considering the alternative.
!