VIA & CYRIX C3 ???

[pike]

Have seen a strange mb: 787 CLR with allonboard: SD, VD, LAN,
MODEM & 1Ghz Cyrix C3 cpu. If i am not mistaken, CYRIX was
taken over by VIA a while back. This board is made by ECS.
Here it is :
http://pcware.com/english/products/IA/IAboards/787clr/787clr.htm
Not sure of the ChipSet though. For sure it`s VIA something !
Could not find this board on the forum here.

Is this a good option as an upgrade for a younster ?

Original sys:
- Asus P55T2P4 V.2.1 (512 cache)
- P 133
- 32 meg EDO (60 nano)
- Ati Mach 64 4 meg (Direct 7.0 drivers)
- Acer 10/100 Lan pci (2 pc Win)
- SB-16 pci
- 2.1 Gig DD (Pio 3) & 1.0 Gig DD (must be also Pio 3)
(No Busmastering !)
- Mitsumi CD-ROM 4X (No Busmastering !)
- OS: Win 95 SR2

Upgraded to:
- Via 787 CLR C3 1Ghz
- All components onboard
- 128 meg SDRAM PC-133
- Acer 32 X CD-ROM (Busmastering ??)
- New ATX box (??? Watts)
- OS: Win 98 SE

My priority is $$$$$$$$
This is for an 8 year old: internet, some music, some "video",
and games (The Sims, Babyz, Red Alert 2 and maybe UT).

My questions are:

Will there be an improvement in performance ?
Would this upgrade be equivalent to a regular sys of
about 500 or 600 Mhz ?
Will the PIO 3 be a serious bottleneck, enough to drag
down the performance, by what % ?
Will the upgrade from WIN 95 to Win 98 give me Busmastering?
Is 250 W for this board ok or is it better to think ahead
and get a box with 350W or more?

Thanks for any suggestions

 

[pike]

I`m responding to my own post, oh what the hell !!!!!

Ok, have now some of my info from other sites.

The manufacturer of the Cyrix C3 mobo is PcChips not ECS, my mistake. Not too many Cyrix fans here i beleive !

Everyone forget CYRIX put out the first true 5X86 cpu !

Anyhow, it would still be nice to hear of any performance results or opinions from you people about this "PcChips M787 CLR C3 1Ghz VIA Chipset mobo" .

I know it's boooooooooring, but try a little harder please.
Be a Cubscout and help an old lady ;-)

In Ottawa the MSI Nforce mobo is $329 can. (no cpu)
The C3 mobo i'm babbling about is $137 can. (C3, of course)

Any input whatsoever would be really appreciated

 

[dhlucke]

There are alternatives that would better suit your needs. The Cyrix processor is thought by most to be garbage. Buy a integrated motherboard and a AMD Duron Processor.

Something like a ECS K7S5A w/ a Duron 750 or even a Thunderbird and 128/256 MB of PC 2100 DDR memory from crucial.com. Get a decent case with a AMD approved powersupply. 300W is fine for this system. Try www.newegg.com and see if you can get something to fit your budget. I'm sure you can. The ECS board has built in sound and lan but you'll need to buy a video card that suits your needs.

<font color=red>God</font color=red> <font color=blue>Bless</font color=blue> <font color=red>America!</font color=red>

 

[HonestJhon]

well, i think that there are some cheap fully integrated mobos out there that can support a duron.
the system i built my older sister is running on a barebones system that i built up for her.
the mobo has everything on it.
lan, sound, video, and modem, but you have to get the riser card...
dont really know the manufacturer...because i didnt buy the mobo seperate...
but the chipset is the sis 730 chipset.
might be made by ecs...not sure.
but that board does all the stuff that you are talking about.
the barebones that it came with cost like 140, and then i put a 1 gig athlon (which you shouldnt need for what it is going to be used for)
her system cost about $800, with everything....mouse, kb, monitor, 30 gig hd, 52x cdrom.
sooo...for $800 us, i built my older sister a system that can do all the stuff she needs it to do, and more.
and the setup that i put together for her is more power than an 8 year old needs.
i will find out who makes the board that i put in there, an post back on here, or if you e-mail me, i will let you know.
or you can look up someone who makes a board with that chipset.
her computer has never crashed...and the only problem she has had was that she got a virus.
which was easily remedied.
but other than that, running without a hickup.
my e-mail addy is honestjhon@msn.com
or you can look on <A HREF="http://www.pricewatch.com" target="_new">http://www.pricewatch.com</A> and see if you can find a board with that chipset.
i dont know how buying something if you live in canada works...but maybe ther is a canadian shop listed in pricewatch.
i hope that something works, because i think that you will be VERY dissapointed with the C3.
they are VERY slow, and do not perform to their rated speeds.
they do however, have the lowest operating temperatures.
but i think that is because of how poorly they perform..
sure, i know the comptuer is only for an 8 year old....but when that kid hits 13....you wont regret having a duron...because it will be fast enough to run the more 3d intense games...

-DAvid

-Live, Learn, then build your own computer!-

 

[pike]

Thanks for the input.

I was affraid that the C3 would be called "garbage", i guess compared to other cpu it is, but this is relative to cost is it not. Not much bucks soo not much bang.

Must say the K75SA at $99.99 canadian does interest me. Lots of talk about this mobo and it has been recommended to me before.

My personal case is a little more complicated than mentioned because i also have:
- a 4 year old that has her 486-100,
- a 11 year old with a old DEC dualie (one PowerLeap K6 400)
- a 8 year old with a p-133 (that's the original sys in first post)
- a EPOX 8KTA+ with a Duron 750
- and an old P55T2P4 with a K6-2 500 +

Would like to recuperate the 2.1 & 1.0 DD. Temporarily.

Question:
Is it insane to use these drives on a K7S5A ? The mb specs say the controller is backward compatible to PIO 3. So these drives will work, right?
The ECS K7VMA has same SIS chipset, i think. Will cheke.

Am very unsure if the C3 mobo (PcChips 787 CLR) with VIA chipset (will find the model) will support these older DD.

Question:
Will Win 98 give me DMA mode for these drives, and would this be more compatible with the newer SIS & VIA chipsets (newer compared to 430 HX) instead of PIO ?

Last question:
A review of a C3 800Mhz & VIA chipset gave 70\75 FPS in Q3A
but they had a GeForce 3 card in there. Hard to compare that with this C3 1Ghz mobo using the integrated video.
So the question is: what FPS can be expected from this C3 mobo with it's onboard video with Q3A ? Average of 25-30 would be acceptable performance for me (rather a 8 year old). Q3A is mentioned for comparison purposes, of course.

Very last question, promise :
I'm not as much concerned by the performance of this C3 mb as by the fonctionnality of it's integrated components. Will these integrated parts work or DISINTEGRATE ?
No, seriously ?

Already have a better view of my options thanks to you all.

Danny

 

[HonestJhon]

well,
i wouldnt call the c3 garbage...because of it's low operating temperatures.
that makes it so heat is not a real problem.
right, not much bucks, not much bang.
but think about this...
a duron 700 goes for about $29 (us)
and a c3 700 goes for $40 (us)
i think that the duron will definately outperform the c3...
hands down.
and for about 2/3 the cost!
the k7s5a is a good and fast board.
stable too, as long as you have a good psu.
now by good, i mean if it is putting out the rated specs for all the lines.
3.3v, 5v, 12v...so on.
my generic 350w psu is doing fine on this thing.
total cost for everything in my computer, other than my video card, sound card, hard drive, cdrom, and floppy drive was like $230...
but that was with a 900mhz athlon, and 256 megs of ddr.
what you could probably do for your situation is get 128 megs of pc-133, which runs for $7 (us), a duron 700, $29 (us), the k7s5a which runs for $53 (us), and a case with a 400w atx case, which i found online for $23 (us).
with all that, you are looking at $112 (us) plus shipping...but you might be able to find it in canada, which would make it cheaper...maybe...i dunno.
all the prices i quoted were from <A HREF="http://www.pricewatch.com" target="_new">http://www.pricewatch.com</A>
i use this site as a guideline for how much things cost now.
as for using the older drives in the new computer, you should be able to do that.
and win98, if the board supports it, which the k7s5a does, will give you dma.
if the drive, and board support it, then you will be able to use it.
since you said that the drive does, and most newer boards do, then you should be able to do it...and see some improved performance.
sorry i dont know the conversions for us->can, or vise versa.
oh, one thing i forgot...a nice cheap video card for the computer.
you can get a geforce2 gts, with 32 megs of ddr, made by visiontek for $62 (us)...which will last a while, and accompanied with the 700 duron, will give quite a gaming experience!
the total for this system upgrade would now be $174 (us), which isnt that bad...considering the stuff that you are getting.
in general, for home use, i would say to stay away from the C3...if you were building an office machine, and were going to be building about 100 identical machines, all running office 2000, then i would say, sure, go ahead, since they definately will be stable.
but since this is going to be a home machine...i would say to stick with a duron...cheaper...and faster.
best of both worlds!

-DAvid

-Live, Learn, then build your own computer!-

 

[knowan]

I'm in Ottawa myself, and I've just checked out some prices from some local stores.

The following is from <A HREF="http://www.oemexpress.com" target="_new">http://www.oemexpress.com</A>:

ECS K7S5A mobo ..................$99.99 CAD
AMD DURON 800 ...................$79.00 CAD
256 DDR RAM .....................$64.99 CAD

And the following is from <A HREF="http://www.networksupply.ca" target="_new">http://www.networksupply.ca</A>

G-FORCE 2 MX 200 32 MB W/DVD ....$75.00 CAD

And the following is from <A HREF="http://www.dealsdirect.ca" target="_new">http://www.dealsdirect.ca</A>

128 DDR RAM PC-2100 CRUCIAL ....$50.84 CAD

Total system cost is $304.83 CAD or $318.98 CAD for double the RAM. And since it's all local there's no shipping charges.

Your hard drives should work fine with this setup, but I'm not going to gaurentee it.

As for your 250 watt power supply, it would be pretty much maxed out with this configuration. It may or may not work, I'll give it about a 50/50 chance. A generic 300 watt power supply retails for about $30.00 CAD locally.

--------------
Knowan likes you. Knowan is your friend. Knowan thinks you're great.

 

[HonestJhon]

see...better deal!
and it will be much faster!
but isnt there shipping charges anyways?
they do have to pay for the postage somehow!

-DAvid

-Live, Learn, then build your own computer!-

 

[pike]

Right on...

Have been watching this OEMEXPRESS site quite a bit recently, and their prices seem good.

Actually that minuscule C3 board was only seen advertised in Montreal, not that far.
However, i do take the advise given about the overall satisfaction potential of the C3 mobo, as quite sobering.
I can see now that a fleet of 100 or more business pc being upgraded would be a perfect example for this C3. Especially considering it's low power consumption, very good office application performance and low cost.
Now my case is more, as many of us i guess, more general home use, with an UPGRADE POTENTIAL.
Beleive me, having paid big bucks when the Asus Triton 2 (430 HX) board came out, i never immagined i would have upgraded it from the original Cyrix P-100 + to the present K6-2 500+ (at 83 Mhz FSB). Goes to show you what you can do with good technology.
Finally, the ECS K75SA seems a good choice with upgrade potential (1900+ XP) and a bargain at that. Might go with SDRAM at first, already have a 128meg. Since i'm thinking ahead at XP, a 350 W Box seems the logical choice.

At OemExpress they have the Abit Geforce 2 Mx 200 2d/3d 32 mb $79 CAD. This must be W/DVD also ? Or not necessarely ? Anyway that's far from a priority , the DVD thing.

Also, i have a EPOX 8KTA+, Duron 750, TNT 2 M64. Rather that have two small Duron, and therefore less upgrade paths, maybe i should go ALL OUT and SPRING for a FAST 900 TBIRD at $109 CAD for the EPOX and transfur the 750 to the ECS K75SA.
A lot of options when we have more than one pc around the house, right ?
To cut my cost, TEMPORARILY (as for the older DD i will reuse), i would disable AGP in BIOS of the K75SA and add a small ATI MACH 64 4 mb PCI card i have. This should be feasable, right, if all "fragging" is put on hold for that time.

Final cost in CAD :
ECS K75SA (ver 1.1 or higher) : $99.99
900 T-BIRD OEM : $109.00
350 W BOX (not sure which) : $65.00 (must be close)

Total: $274. (i will be in a big hurry for a better video card, that's for sure)

Still very unsure of that PIO DMA aspect.
The SIS 735 is backwards compatible for PIO 4 and DMA 2.
What is DMA 2 ? Is that what Win98 supports with it's own drivers. If not i stand a chance, as you say, too have too open my wallet a little more...That's part of the fun right
"" Oh ! NO NO NO ! Sweetheart! my old DD aren't compatible with that new motherboard i just installed ! I guess i will have to go pick up the 400 Gig 15,500 rpm drive i saw ...."

I have bought online, but as you say, there is the shipping $$$$ and there is the waiting ZZZZZZZZZ. Better if you can find it locally.

Oh ! The K75SA needs a modem, was forgetting that.
In my EPOX i have a AUREAL VCOM V90 PCI DATA/FAX Modem.
That's a software modem, apparently.
Works fine but had i bit of tinkering with the coms and drivers at first. How about $ 30 CAD, sound ok ?

Grand total: $304 CAD (that's without the 300Gig DD)

Can't seem to stop writing, will talk to my shrink about that.
Anyway , THANKS for all you're input, really )))))))

Danny

 

[HonestJhon]

the k7s5a has an AMR slot, so you could just get an AMR modem for it.
that is a software modem, meaning that it uses the cpu to do most of the work.
considering the 750 duron is pretty powerful, it should be able to handle that, no problem.
and it wouldnt take up the pci slots, but you probably wouldnt care about that for this application.
and yeah, when it comes down to it, the C3 is pretty much for office workstation use. because, as you stated, it does not use much juice, and doesnt run hot.
and since for general office use, it would be used for word processing, and data entry, poor performance is not a problem.


-DAvid

-Live, Learn, then build your own computer!-

 

[Crashman]

DAMN dude the C3 is FAR outclased by the cheaper Celeron CPU! And the Celeron is FAR outclased by the even cheaper Duron CPU! What were you thinking?

What's the frequency, Kenneth?

 

[pike]

Yes, you're right about the performance part.
But this is for a 8 year old, and what still hauts me is the low price:

PcChips 787CLR C3 has allonboard PLUS the C3 cpu for:
$137 CAD or * 0.6= $86 US

What integrated board + cpu can you get with AMD for that ?

The quality of the C3 mobo has to be excellent however or else it's a no go for sure. I mean all the onboard components must set up straitforwardly (ouf !) and function perfectly. That i really don't know about .

The most stupid question is the one not asked !

Danny

 

[Crashman]

If you really like that board, you should at least consider the Celeron instead, it is much faster, and cost less than the C3, and fits the same board!

What's the frequency, Kenneth?

 

[HonestJhon]

good point crashman...
i really didnt think about that.
the celeron would fit in that board.
and would be a better solution for this application.
especially if he really likes that board.


-DAvid

-Live, Learn, then build your own computer!-

 

[pike]

Well it's not that i "really like" that board, it's the dam
price that's so low.
Also i don't undestand !
If the board will take a celeron wy isn'nt it sold without ?
Is'nt there a power consideration with the celeron.
The board seems to have been enginered for the C3, but i'm really not sure.

It's just that for $86 US it looked like a bargain

For sure i will do more resurch about it

Danny

 

[HonestJhon]

there shouldnt be a problem running it with a celeron....those arent very power hungry...
the k7s5a is like $65 (us)
that is a bargain!

-DAvid

-Live, Learn, then build your own computer!-

 

[dhlucke]

What do duron processors cost you in Canada? My thought is that a K7S5A for $60 and a Duron 700 for $30 plus a video card of your choice is a far better alternative. Get something like a Radeon LE $60 and you're spending about $60 more for a machine that is going to last and perform 500% better.

<font color=red>God</font color=red> <font color=blue>Bless</font color=blue> <font color=red>America!</font color=red>

 

[pike]

Well here is what i found:

ECS K7S5A : $99.99 CAN
Duron 750 : $69.00 CAN
ATI Radeon DDR LE 32mb : $129.00 CAN
or
Geforce 2 MX 200 32mb : $79.00 CAN

That's : $179 US or $148 compered to the C3 at $82 US

The big difference is of course performance and upgradability and that is an important factor.

Will try and find more info on the C3 mobo's quality !

Danny