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Conditioning !--Alright, guys, I know this gets asked a lot!

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Anonymous
January 16, 2005 3:09:33 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

I have done all the research I know to do on this (including an "ask" search
whereby I was taken to my own same question 2 years ago to Steve Sobol). I
keep getting completely opposite information such as: "Draining an L-ion
battery causes more harm than good," to "you should charge for 10-12 hours
initially, then drain charge completely--repeat cycle 3 times".

Since I'm getting a new phone on Monday, I want to charge the battery
properly from the get-go.

Any and all *knowledgeable* (big grin!) info will be greatly appreciated!

Janie
Anonymous
January 16, 2005 3:09:34 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Janie Collins wrote:
> I have done all the research I know to do on this (including an "ask"
> search whereby I was taken to my own same question 2 years ago to
> Steve Sobol). I keep getting completely opposite information such
> as: "Draining an L-ion battery causes more harm than good," to "you
> should charge for 10-12 hours initially, then drain charge
> completely--repeat cycle 3 times".
> Since I'm getting a new phone on Monday, I want to charge the battery
> properly from the get-go.
>
> Any and all *knowledgeable* (big grin!) info will be greatly
> appreciated!
> Janie

Don't know how much this will help,
http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm
But it is *NOT* a Nicad battery, and I tell people there is *NO* memory
effect, charge it once and keep it charged whenever possible.
Anonymous
January 16, 2005 4:01:26 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Thanks! You are always good about answering me :) .

J

"Peter Pan" <Marcs1102NOSPAM@HotmailNOSPAM.com> wrote in message
news:34tqr1F4gc20iU1@individual.net...
> Janie Collins wrote:
>> I have done all the research I know to do on this (including an "ask"
>> search whereby I was taken to my own same question 2 years ago to
>> Steve Sobol). I keep getting completely opposite information such
>> as: "Draining an L-ion battery causes more harm than good," to "you
>> should charge for 10-12 hours initially, then drain charge
>> completely--repeat cycle 3 times".
>> Since I'm getting a new phone on Monday, I want to charge the battery
>> properly from the get-go.
>>
>> Any and all *knowledgeable* (big grin!) info will be greatly
>> appreciated!
>> Janie
>
> Don't know how much this will help,
> http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm
> But it is *NOT* a Nicad battery, and I tell people there is *NO* memory
> effect, charge it once and keep it charged whenever possible.
>
Related resources
Anonymous
January 16, 2005 7:04:26 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 00:09:33 GMT, Janie Collins wrote:

> I have done all the research I know to do on this (including an "ask" search
> whereby I was taken to my own same question 2 years ago to Steve Sobol). I
> keep getting completely opposite information such as: "Draining an L-ion
> battery causes more harm than good," to "you should charge for 10-12 hours
> initially, then drain charge completely--repeat cycle 3 times".
>
> Since I'm getting a new phone on Monday, I want to charge the battery
> properly from the get-go.
>
> Any and all *knowledgeable* (big grin!) info will be greatly appreciated!
>
> Janie

New Li-Ion batteries should be chemically conditioned for best life.

1. Fully charge the battery.
2. Use the phone without recharging untll it shuts off by itself.
3. Repeat steps 1 and 2.
4. Now you can partially charge as needed.

I usually repeat steps 1 and 2 every six months or so and find my cell
batteries usually last for the life of the phone, which for me is 1-1/2 to 2
years.
Anonymous
January 16, 2005 4:26:18 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"Traveling Man" <none@none.com> wrote in:

> New Li-Ion batteries should be chemically conditioned for best life.
>
> 1. Fully charge the battery.
> 2. Use the phone without recharging untll it shuts off by itself.
> 3. Repeat steps 1 and 2.
> 4. Now you can partially charge as needed.
>
> I usually repeat steps 1 and 2 every six months or so and find my cell
> batteries usually last for the life of the phone, which for me is 1-1/2 to
> 2
> years.


Please give the *documented* reference for these claims. Frankly, I don't
believe them.

The life of the phone--and the battery--should be *well* over two years!

--
D.J., N8DO; FMCA 147762
dj[underscore]osborn at yahoo dot com
Anonymous
January 16, 2005 4:26:19 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 13:26:18 GMT, "D.J. Osborn"
<dj_osborn@yahoooo.com> wrote:

>"Traveling Man" <none@none.com> wrote in:
>
>> New Li-Ion batteries should be chemically conditioned for best life.
>>
>> 1. Fully charge the battery.
>> 2. Use the phone without recharging untll it shuts off by itself.
>> 3. Repeat steps 1 and 2.
>> 4. Now you can partially charge as needed.
>>
>> I usually repeat steps 1 and 2 every six months or so and find my cell
>> batteries usually last for the life of the phone, which for me is 1-1/2 to
>> 2
>> years.
>
>
>Please give the *documented* reference for these claims. Frankly, I don't
>believe them.
>
>The life of the phone--and the battery--should be *well* over two years!

While I have not done exactly that, every owner's manual of every VZW
I have ever had has said to let the battery run down for the first few
uses.

While I can't document it, posters in this and the Howard Forums have
complained about battery life on new phones. The answer has mostly
been wait until the first few charges and battery life will improve.
Replies have supported this and I have found it to be so on new phones
I have purchased.
Anonymous
January 16, 2005 4:43:05 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 04:04:26 GMT, Traveling Man <none@none.com> wrote:
>I usually repeat steps 1 and 2 every six months or so and find my cell
>batteries usually last for the life of the phone, which for me is 1-1/2 to 2
>years.

And if you didn't do that, your batteries would last 1-1/2 to 2 years.
Probably even longer!
January 16, 2005 6:21:32 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

You don't need to condition a Lion battery and charging for those whopping
10-12 hours before first initial use is just ridiculous. Lion batts do not
need any priming whatsoever. When you get your new phone, charge the battery
until it indicates full charge and that's it. No need to leave it there
longer or discharge or cycle or whatever it is other people have told you.
All these little things people do to Lion batteries are just coming from the
old nickel days.

"Janie Collins" <jjcollins@triad.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1hiGd.2635$K72.461079@twister.southeast.rr.com...
> I have done all the research I know to do on this (including an "ask"
search
> whereby I was taken to my own same question 2 years ago to Steve Sobol).
I
> keep getting completely opposite information such as: "Draining an L-ion
> battery causes more harm than good," to "you should charge for 10-12 hours
> initially, then drain charge completely--repeat cycle 3 times".
>
> Since I'm getting a new phone on Monday, I want to charge the battery
> properly from the get-go.
>
> Any and all *knowledgeable* (big grin!) info will be greatly appreciated!
>
> Janie
>
>
Anonymous
January 16, 2005 7:40:28 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"Traveling Man" <none@none.com> wrote in message news:1mdidbltnxrzn$.13hdn9ea7cbby$.dlg@40tude.net...
>
> New Li-Ion batteries should be chemically conditioned for best life.
>
> 1. Fully charge the battery.
> 2. Use the phone without recharging untll it shuts off by itself.
> 3. Repeat steps 1 and 2.
> 4. Now you can partially charge as needed.
>
> I usually repeat steps 1 and 2 every six months or so and find my cell
> batteries usually last for the life of the phone, which for me is 1-1/2 to 2
> years.

Steps 1 and 4 are appropriate for cell-phone batteries.
Step 2 (along with 3) does no harm, but is unnecessary for cell phones.
Step 2 can be appropriate for calibrating "fuel-gauge" chips which may
be included in laptop-computer battery assemblies of multiple cells,
and which give their computer a "percentage" number for charge state.
Some of those chips are programmed to recalibrate themselves when
they see that uninterrupted discharge/recharge cycle.

Cell phones normally use single Li-Ion cells, and I doubt that any of them
use those fuel-gauge chips.

According to the experts who post in sci.chem.electrochem.battery,
Li-Ion cells are shipped from the manufacturer with about a 50% charge,
which is chemically the best for long-term storage.
During the first several charges, the anode material will continue to form,
and the milliamp-hour capacity of the cell will actually increase a bit.
But the deep discharge of step 2 mentioned above is unnecessary.
Anonymous
January 16, 2005 10:41:25 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"teddeli" <teddeli@optonline.xxx> wrote:

> On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 13:26:18 GMT, "D.J. Osborn"
> <dj_osborn@yahoooo.com> wrote:
>
>>"Traveling Man" <none@none.com> wrote in:
>>
>>> New Li-Ion batteries should be chemically conditioned for best life.
>>>
>>> 1. Fully charge the battery.
>>> 2. Use the phone without recharging untll it shuts off by itself.
>>> 3. Repeat steps 1 and 2.
>>> 4. Now you can partially charge as needed.
>>>
>>> I usually repeat steps 1 and 2 every six months or so and find my cell
>>> batteries usually last for the life of the phone, which for me is 1-1/2
>>> to
>>> 2
>>> years.
>>
>>
>>Please give the *documented* reference for these claims. Frankly, I don't
>>believe them.
>>
>>The life of the phone--and the battery--should be *well* over two years!
>
> While I have not done exactly that, every owner's manual of every VZW
> I have ever had has said to let the battery run down for the first few
> uses.
>
> While I can't document it, posters in this and the Howard Forums have
> complained about battery life on new phones. The answer has mostly
> been wait until the first few charges and battery life will improve.
> Replies have supported this and I have found it to be so on new phones
> I have purchased.


Since you can't document it, I'll continue not to believe it.

--
D.J., N8DO; FMCA 147762
dj[underscore]osborn at yahoo dot com
Anonymous
January 17, 2005 12:52:08 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 13:26:18 GMT, D.J. Osborn wrote:

> "Traveling Man" <none@none.com> wrote in:
>
>> New Li-Ion batteries should be chemically conditioned for best life.
>>
>> 1. Fully charge the battery.
>> 2. Use the phone without recharging untll it shuts off by itself.
>> 3. Repeat steps 1 and 2.
>> 4. Now you can partially charge as needed.
>>
>> I usually repeat steps 1 and 2 every six months or so and find my cell
>> batteries usually last for the life of the phone, which for me is 1-1/2 to
>> 2
>> years.
>
>
> Please give the *documented* reference for these claims. Frankly, I don't
> believe them.
>
> The life of the phone--and the battery--should be *well* over two years!

http://is.med.ohio-state.edu/policies/battery.htm
Anonymous
January 17, 2005 12:52:09 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Traveling Man wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 13:26:18 GMT, D.J. Osborn wrote:
>
>> "Traveling Man" <none@none.com> wrote in:
>>
>>> New Li-Ion batteries should be chemically conditioned for best life.
>>>
>>> 1. Fully charge the battery.
>>> 2. Use the phone without recharging untll it shuts off by itself.
>>> 3. Repeat steps 1 and 2.
>>> 4. Now you can partially charge as needed.
>>>
>>> I usually repeat steps 1 and 2 every six months or so and find my
>>> cell batteries usually last for the life of the phone, which for me
>>> is 1-1/2 to 2
>>> years.
>>
>>
>> Please give the *documented* reference for these claims. Frankly, I
>> don't believe them.
>>
>> The life of the phone--and the battery--should be *well* over two
>> years!
>
> http://is.med.ohio-state.edu/policies/battery.htm

Did you miss this in your link?
How can I maximize the performance of my battery?

"Exceptions to the rule are Li-Ion batteries which do not suffer from the
memory effect."

================================================
Since almost all Cellphone batteries are Li-Ion now, that "exception" sure
makes a major difference.
January 17, 2005 1:43:48 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Traveling Man wrote on [Sun, 16 Jan 2005 21:52:08 GMT]:
> On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 13:26:18 GMT, D.J. Osborn wrote:
>
>> "Traveling Man" <none@none.com> wrote in:
>>
>>> New Li-Ion batteries should be chemically conditioned for best life.
>>>
>>> 1. Fully charge the battery.
>>> 2. Use the phone without recharging untll it shuts off by itself.
>>> 3. Repeat steps 1 and 2.
>>> 4. Now you can partially charge as needed.
>>>
>>> I usually repeat steps 1 and 2 every six months or so and find my cell
>>> batteries usually last for the life of the phone, which for me is 1-1/2 to
>>> 2
>>> years.
>>
>>
>> Please give the *documented* reference for these claims. Frankly, I don't
>> believe them.
>>
>> The life of the phone--and the battery--should be *well* over two years!
>
> http://is.med.ohio-state.edu/policies/battery.htm

Which states the exact opposite to the claims above.
Anonymous
January 17, 2005 3:28:29 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 15:57:09 -0800, Peter Pan wrote:

> Traveling Man wrote:
>> On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 13:26:18 GMT, D.J. Osborn wrote:
>>
>>> "Traveling Man" <none@none.com> wrote in:
>>>
>>>> New Li-Ion batteries should be chemically conditioned for best life.
>>>>
>>>> 1. Fully charge the battery.
>>>> 2. Use the phone without recharging untll it shuts off by itself.
>>>> 3. Repeat steps 1 and 2.
>>>> 4. Now you can partially charge as needed.
>>>>
>>>> I usually repeat steps 1 and 2 every six months or so and find my
>>>> cell batteries usually last for the life of the phone, which for me
>>>> is 1-1/2 to 2
>>>> years.
>>>
>>>
>>> Please give the *documented* reference for these claims. Frankly, I
>>> don't believe them.
>>>
>>> The life of the phone--and the battery--should be *well* over two
>>> years!
>>
>> http://is.med.ohio-state.edu/policies/battery.htm
>
> Did you miss this in your link?
> How can I maximize the performance of my battery?
>
> "Exceptions to the rule are Li-Ion batteries which do not suffer from the
> memory effect."
>
> ================================================
> Since almost all Cellphone batteries are Li-Ion now, that "exception" sure
> makes a major difference.

I didn't say anything about memory effect. I said that for maximum life you
should condition your battery.
Anonymous
January 17, 2005 4:15:07 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"Traveling Man" <none@none.com> wrote in:

> On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 13:26:18 GMT, D.J. Osborn wrote:
>
>> "Traveling Man" <none@none.com> wrote in:
>>
>>> New Li-Ion batteries should be chemically conditioned for best life.
>>>
>>> 1. Fully charge the battery.
>>> 2. Use the phone without recharging untll it shuts off by itself.
>>> 3. Repeat steps 1 and 2.
>>> 4. Now you can partially charge as needed.
>>>
>>> I usually repeat steps 1 and 2 every six months or so and find my cell
>>> batteries usually last for the life of the phone, which for me is 1-1/2
>>> to
>>> 2
>>> years.
>>
>>
>> Please give the *documented* reference for these claims. Frankly, I don't
>> believe them.
>>
>> The life of the phone--and the battery--should be *well* over two years!
>
> http://is.med.ohio-state.edu/policies/battery.htm


Are they a battery manufacturer? Obvious;y not! Let's see some documentation
from the manufacturers. Documentation from an outfit that knows nothing
about batteries is less than useless.

--
D.J., N8DO; FMCA 147762
dj[underscore]osborn at yahoo dot com
Anonymous
January 17, 2005 10:45:57 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

It isn't like I'm an electrical engineer.... wait, I am an electrical
engineer: and here is what I tell my customers, all my customers lithium
ion or not. Charge it up/down 3 times, if convenient; otherwise, it is just
a phone, use it anyway you like, and if the battery dies early, buy another.
No prob. dr

Generally: Take the phone out of the box, use it as you like, don't worry if
it has a full charge or not. Use the phone the way you want, don't change
your behavior just for a phone. BUT: if you want the maximum amount of
life/power/capacity to your battery, 1st opportunity that is convenient do
the following:
1) try and charge it up all night, over night to a full charge
2) run the phone down to a near discharge, and then repeat to charge it up
all night. (basically full up/down three times).

However, if this is inconvenient, enjoy the phone, and don't worry about it.
No matter what you do, expect a full 1 yr out of the battery. Less than 1
year, OUCH; More than 2 yrs, EXCELLENT. In between is pretty normal. In my
opinion/experience: folks that condition their battery seem to get longer
over-all life.

Worse case: conditioning has never hurt any battery. But in case of doubt,
why not get the most out of your battery. You'll have to charge it anyway,
why not overnight 3 times :-)

--
dr. wireMORE (don't accept "less", demand "more")
Wireless Consultant/Engineer & Midwest VZW Master Agent
Data, wi-fi, national access, smartphones, and home
computer healthchecks, stop worrying... just ask for the dr.

If you need specific help, leave your email address & we'll try to contact
you. Worred about leaving your email address..... yup, me too.
<xman@thedripper.com> wrote in message
news:10ulj6dnfv6h302@corp.supernews.com...
> You don't need to condition a Lion battery and charging for those whopping
> 10-12 hours before first initial use is just ridiculous. Lion batts do not
> need any priming whatsoever. When you get your new phone, charge the
battery
> until it indicates full charge and that's it. No need to leave it there
> longer or discharge or cycle or whatever it is other people have told you.
> All these little things people do to Lion batteries are just coming from
the
> old nickel days.
>
> "Janie Collins" <jjcollins@triad.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:1hiGd.2635$K72.461079@twister.southeast.rr.com...
> > I have done all the research I know to do on this (including an "ask"
> search
> > whereby I was taken to my own same question 2 years ago to Steve Sobol).
> I
> > keep getting completely opposite information such as: "Draining an
L-ion
> > battery causes more harm than good," to "you should charge for 10-12
hours
> > initially, then drain charge completely--repeat cycle 3 times".
> >
> > Since I'm getting a new phone on Monday, I want to charge the battery
> > properly from the get-go.
> >
> > Any and all *knowledgeable* (big grin!) info will be greatly
appreciated!
> >
> > Janie
> >
> >
>
>
Anonymous
January 17, 2005 4:23:49 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 07:45:57 GMT, dr.wireMORE@VZW-MidWESTma wrote:

> It isn't like I'm an electrical engineer.... wait, I am an electrical
> engineer: and here is what I tell my customers, all my customers lithium
> ion or not. Charge it up/down 3 times, if convenient; otherwise, it is just
> a phone, use it anyway you like, and if the battery dies early, buy another.

FWIW, I also have a degree in Electrical Engineering.

> Generally: Take the phone out of the box, use it as you like, don't worry if
> it has a full charge or not. Use the phone the way you want, don't change
> your behavior just for a phone. BUT: if you want the maximum amount of
> life/power/capacity to your battery, 1st opportunity that is convenient do
> the following:
> 1) try and charge it up all night, over night to a full charge
> 2) run the phone down to a near discharge, and then repeat to charge it up
> all night. (basically full up/down three times).

> However, if this is inconvenient, enjoy the phone, and don't worry about it.
> No matter what you do, expect a full 1 yr out of the battery. Less than 1
> year, OUCH; More than 2 yrs, EXCELLENT. In between is pretty normal. In my
> opinion/experience: folks that condition their battery seem to get longer
> over-all life.

That has been my experience as well. My wife and I have never had to
replace a cell phone battery since we started using them in the early 90's.

> Worse case: conditioning has never hurt any battery. But in case of doubt,
> why not get the most out of your battery. You'll have to charge it anyway,
> why not overnight 3 times :-)

My point exactly. What can it hurt?
Anonymous
January 17, 2005 4:23:50 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Traveling Man wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 07:45:57 GMT, dr.wireMORE@VZW-MidWESTma wrote:
>
>> It isn't like I'm an electrical engineer.... wait, I am an electrical
>> engineer: and here is what I tell my customers, all my customers
>> lithium ion or not. Charge it up/down 3 times, if convenient;
>> otherwise, it is just a phone, use it anyway you like, and if the
>> battery dies early, buy another.
>
> FWIW, I also have a degree in Electrical Engineering.
>
>> Generally: Take the phone out of the box, use it as you like, don't
>> worry if it has a full charge or not. Use the phone the way you
>> want, don't change your behavior just for a phone. BUT: if you want
>> the maximum amount of life/power/capacity to your battery, 1st
>> opportunity that is convenient do the following:
>> 1) try and charge it up all night, over night to a full charge
>> 2) run the phone down to a near discharge, and then repeat to charge
>> it up all night. (basically full up/down three times).
>
>> However, if this is inconvenient, enjoy the phone, and don't worry
>> about it. No matter what you do, expect a full 1 yr out of the
>> battery. Less than 1 year, OUCH; More than 2 yrs, EXCELLENT. In
>> between is pretty normal. In my opinion/experience: folks that
>> condition their battery seem to get longer over-all life.
>
> That has been my experience as well. My wife and I have never had to
> replace a cell phone battery since we started using them in the early
> 90's.
>
>> Worse case: conditioning has never hurt any battery. But in case of
>> doubt, why not get the most out of your battery. You'll have to
>> charge it anyway, why not overnight 3 times :-)
>
> My point exactly. What can it hurt?

These statements from "engineers"?

1) Yes, conditioning "hurts" a battery since the battery only has a finite
number of charge/discharge cycles. Condition it and you've used up
one of those (or part of one). In the case of LiIon batteries you haven't
extended the life of the battery but, in fact, reduced it by one cycle.

2) "In my opinion/experience: folks that condition their battery seem to
get longer over-all life". Really? Is this an impression or do you have
any real data to confirm this?

Please use some of that "electrical engineering" talk to explain why
this is so in the context of LiIon batteries.

3) I actually agree that some people *should* condition their batteries.
These people actually feel better if they do that. They either believe it
or they aren't sure but want to cover their bases. Many of these people
are rather superstitious too. For them the peace of mind and perceived
gain is well worth the cost of their time, electricity, and decreased
battery life.

-Quick
January 17, 2005 8:12:22 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

I do have to agree with you here. People, even if there's proof, still want
to condition a lion battery for some strange reason. Being an electrical
engineer, doctor, lawyer, doesn't mean you're smart or have any common
sense. The fact is lion batteries do not need any special conditioning to
get the full capacity life out of them. What does it take?

"Quick" <quick7135-news@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1105985553.905820@sj-nntpcache-3...
> Traveling Man wrote:
> > On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 07:45:57 GMT, dr.wireMORE@VZW-MidWESTma wrote:
> >
> >> It isn't like I'm an electrical engineer.... wait, I am an electrical
> >> engineer: and here is what I tell my customers, all my customers
> >> lithium ion or not. Charge it up/down 3 times, if convenient;
> >> otherwise, it is just a phone, use it anyway you like, and if the
> >> battery dies early, buy another.
> >
> > FWIW, I also have a degree in Electrical Engineering.
> >
> >> Generally: Take the phone out of the box, use it as you like, don't
> >> worry if it has a full charge or not. Use the phone the way you
> >> want, don't change your behavior just for a phone. BUT: if you want
> >> the maximum amount of life/power/capacity to your battery, 1st
> >> opportunity that is convenient do the following:
> >> 1) try and charge it up all night, over night to a full charge
> >> 2) run the phone down to a near discharge, and then repeat to charge
> >> it up all night. (basically full up/down three times).
> >
> >> However, if this is inconvenient, enjoy the phone, and don't worry
> >> about it. No matter what you do, expect a full 1 yr out of the
> >> battery. Less than 1 year, OUCH; More than 2 yrs, EXCELLENT. In
> >> between is pretty normal. In my opinion/experience: folks that
> >> condition their battery seem to get longer over-all life.
> >
> > That has been my experience as well. My wife and I have never had to
> > replace a cell phone battery since we started using them in the early
> > 90's.
> >
> >> Worse case: conditioning has never hurt any battery. But in case of
> >> doubt, why not get the most out of your battery. You'll have to
> >> charge it anyway, why not overnight 3 times :-)
> >
> > My point exactly. What can it hurt?
>
> These statements from "engineers"?
>
> 1) Yes, conditioning "hurts" a battery since the battery only has a finite
> number of charge/discharge cycles. Condition it and you've used up
> one of those (or part of one). In the case of LiIon batteries you haven't
> extended the life of the battery but, in fact, reduced it by one cycle.
>
> 2) "In my opinion/experience: folks that condition their battery seem to
> get longer over-all life". Really? Is this an impression or do you have
> any real data to confirm this?
>
> Please use some of that "electrical engineering" talk to explain why
> this is so in the context of LiIon batteries.
>
> 3) I actually agree that some people *should* condition their batteries.
> These people actually feel better if they do that. They either believe it
> or they aren't sure but want to cover their bases. Many of these people
> are rather superstitious too. For them the peace of mind and perceived
> gain is well worth the cost of their time, electricity, and decreased
> battery life.
>
> -Quick
>
>
Anonymous
January 18, 2005 1:26:29 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

In these routine threads about the merits of conditioning LiIon
batteries, it is important to distinguish between "conditioning", which
is a one-time process of fully charging and then fully discharging the
battery a couple of times when the battery is new, and "memory effect",
which says that you should completely charge/discharge the battery every
time. As often stated, "memory effect" applies only to nickel-based
batteries (and some even question that), and is not relevant to LiIon
batteries. "Conditioning" may or may not be needed, depending on who you
talk to. Some who acknowledge the concept of "conditioning" LiIon
batteries say that the manufacturer has already taken care of that, so
the user doesn't have to do anything. But in any case, "conditioning"
and "memory effect" are two entirely different issues.
Anonymous
January 18, 2005 5:09:33 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Allow me to offer my non-technical opinion. I use a battery operated
shaver; It is a lithium battery, and I charge it up, and run it into the
ground, never re-charging it until it is depleted. Lithium batteries,
according to many, have about 342.8 full cycles (300 something, the 42.8
added for the geeks) of charging. Be that as it may, I've never had a
battery die (wouldn't recharge), and I follow my own advice. My shavers
have lasted up to 12 years by charging only when it is near dead. FWIW

Hey the batteries are only $39.99 or a penny on ebay. Do as you like, and
enjoy; save from dropping it into water, it will probably work just fine for
ya. Dr.

<xman@thedripper.com> wrote in message
news:10uoe2bf0vmhu81@corp.supernews.com...
> I do have to agree with you here. People, even if there's proof, still
want
> to condition a lion battery for some strange reason. Being an electrical
> engineer, doctor, lawyer, doesn't mean you're smart or have any common
> sense. The fact is lion batteries do not need any special conditioning to
> get the full capacity life out of them. What does it take?
>
> "Quick" <quick7135-news@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1105985553.905820@sj-nntpcache-3...
> > Traveling Man wrote:
> > > On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 07:45:57 GMT, dr.wireMORE@VZW-MidWESTma wrote:
> > >
> > >> It isn't like I'm an electrical engineer.... wait, I am an electrical
> > >> engineer: and here is what I tell my customers, all my customers
> > >> lithium ion or not. Charge it up/down 3 times, if convenient;
> > >> otherwise, it is just a phone, use it anyway you like, and if the
> > >> battery dies early, buy another.
> > >
> > > FWIW, I also have a degree in Electrical Engineering.
> > >
> > >> Generally: Take the phone out of the box, use it as you like, don't
> > >> worry if it has a full charge or not. Use the phone the way you
> > >> want, don't change your behavior just for a phone. BUT: if you want
> > >> the maximum amount of life/power/capacity to your battery, 1st
> > >> opportunity that is convenient do the following:
> > >> 1) try and charge it up all night, over night to a full charge
> > >> 2) run the phone down to a near discharge, and then repeat to charge
> > >> it up all night. (basically full up/down three times).
> > >
> > >> However, if this is inconvenient, enjoy the phone, and don't worry
> > >> about it. No matter what you do, expect a full 1 yr out of the
> > >> battery. Less than 1 year, OUCH; More than 2 yrs, EXCELLENT. In
> > >> between is pretty normal. In my opinion/experience: folks that
> > >> condition their battery seem to get longer over-all life.
> > >
> > > That has been my experience as well. My wife and I have never had to
> > > replace a cell phone battery since we started using them in the early
> > > 90's.
> > >
> > >> Worse case: conditioning has never hurt any battery. But in case of
> > >> doubt, why not get the most out of your battery. You'll have to
> > >> charge it anyway, why not overnight 3 times :-)
> > >
> > > My point exactly. What can it hurt?
> >
> > These statements from "engineers"?
> >
> > 1) Yes, conditioning "hurts" a battery since the battery only has a
finite
> > number of charge/discharge cycles. Condition it and you've used up
> > one of those (or part of one). In the case of LiIon batteries you
haven't
> > extended the life of the battery but, in fact, reduced it by one cycle.
> >
> > 2) "In my opinion/experience: folks that condition their battery seem to
> > get longer over-all life". Really? Is this an impression or do you
have
> > any real data to confirm this?
> >
> > Please use some of that "electrical engineering" talk to explain why
> > this is so in the context of LiIon batteries.
> >
> > 3) I actually agree that some people *should* condition their batteries.
> > These people actually feel better if they do that. They either believe
it
> > or they aren't sure but want to cover their bases. Many of these people
> > are rather superstitious too. For them the peace of mind and perceived
> > gain is well worth the cost of their time, electricity, and decreased
> > battery life.
> >
> > -Quick
> >
> >
>
>
Anonymous
January 18, 2005 5:09:34 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Below you prefaced your original statement with
"...wait, I am an electrical engineer:"

Your reply begins
"...my non-technical opinion."

You say your shavers have lasted up to 12 years
by charging only when it is near dead.

Did they have LiIon batteries 12 years ago?
In a shaver?
Are you implying that they would have lasted
less than 12 years if you had charged them
following each use?
Do you know that they wouldn't have gone 14
years if you had charged following each use?

Did you "condition" your shaver battery by
leaving it running on the counter until dead,
recharging, and repeating 2 or 3 times when
your first got it?

Did you try not fully discharging before recharging
a few times to see of the serviceable time between
recharges decreased (memory effect)?

I'm curious how you came to your conclusion?

-Quick



dr.wireMORE@VZW-MidWESTma wrote:
> Allow me to offer my non-technical opinion. I use a
> battery operated shaver; It is a lithium battery, and I
> charge it up, and run it into the ground, never
> re-charging it until it is depleted. Lithium batteries,
> according to many, have about 342.8 full cycles (300
> something, the 42.8 added for the geeks) of charging. Be
> that as it may, I've never had a battery die (wouldn't
> recharge), and I follow my own advice. My shavers have
> lasted up to 12 years by charging only when it is near
> dead. FWIW
>
> Hey the batteries are only $39.99 or a penny on ebay. Do
> as you like, and enjoy; save from dropping it into water,
> it will probably work just fine for ya. Dr.
>
> <xman@thedripper.com> wrote in message
> news:10uoe2bf0vmhu81@corp.supernews.com...
>> I do have to agree with you here. People, even if
>> there's proof, still want to condition a lion battery
>> for some strange reason. Being an electrical engineer,
>> doctor, lawyer, doesn't mean you're smart or have any
>> common sense. The fact is lion batteries do not need any
>> special conditioning to get the full capacity life out
>> of them. What does it take?
>>
>> "Quick" <quick7135-news@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1105985553.905820@sj-nntpcache-3...
>>> Traveling Man wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 07:45:57 GMT,
>>>> dr.wireMORE@VZW-MidWESTma wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> It isn't like I'm an electrical engineer.... wait, I
>>>>> am an electrical engineer: and here is what I tell
>>>>> my customers, all my customers lithium ion or not.
>>>>> Charge it up/down 3 times, if convenient; otherwise,
>>>>> it is just a phone, use it anyway you like, and if
>>>>> the battery dies early, buy another.
>>>>
>>>> FWIW, I also have a degree in Electrical Engineering.
>>>>
>>>>> Generally: Take the phone out of the box, use it as
>>>>> you like, don't worry if it has a full charge or not.
>>>>> Use the phone the way you want, don't change your
>>>>> behavior just for a phone. BUT: if you want the
>>>>> maximum amount of life/power/capacity to your
>>>>> battery, 1st opportunity that is convenient do the
>>>>> following: 1) try and charge it up all night, over
>>>>> night to a full charge 2) run the phone down to a
>>>>> near discharge, and then repeat to charge it up all
>>>>> night. (basically full up/down three times).
>>>>
>>>>> However, if this is inconvenient, enjoy the phone,
>>>>> and don't worry about it. No matter what you do,
>>>>> expect a full 1 yr out of the battery. Less than 1
>>>>> year, OUCH; More than 2 yrs, EXCELLENT. In between
>>>>> is pretty normal. In my opinion/experience: folks
>>>>> that condition their battery seem to get longer
>>>>> over-all life.
>>>>
>>>> That has been my experience as well. My wife and I
>>>> have never had to replace a cell phone battery since
>>>> we started using them in the early 90's.
>>>>
>>>>> Worse case: conditioning has never hurt any battery.
>>>>> But in case of doubt, why not get the most out of
>>>>> your battery. You'll have to charge it anyway, why
>>>>> not overnight 3 times :-)
>>>>
>>>> My point exactly. What can it hurt?
>>>
>>> These statements from "engineers"?
>>>
>>> 1) Yes, conditioning "hurts" a battery since the
>>> battery only has a finite number of charge/discharge
>>> cycles. Condition it and you've used up
>>> one of those (or part of one). In the case of LiIon
>>> batteries you haven't extended the life of the battery
>>> but, in fact, reduced it by one cycle.
>>>
>>> 2) "In my opinion/experience: folks that condition
>>> their battery seem to get longer over-all life".
>>> Really? Is this an impression or do you have any real
>>> data to confirm this?
>>>
>>> Please use some of that "electrical engineering" talk
>>> to explain why this is so in the context of LiIon
>>> batteries.
>>>
>>> 3) I actually agree that some people *should* condition
>>> their batteries. These people actually feel better if
>>> they do that. They either believe it or they aren't
>>> sure but want to cover their bases. Many of these
>>> people are rather superstitious too. For them the peace
>>> of mind and perceived gain is well worth the cost of
>>> their time, electricity, and decreased battery life.
>>>
>>> -Quick
Anonymous
January 18, 2005 7:46:08 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Yes, as a matter of fact. I did condition it from "use." But, since you
asked, when it was low, but not quite dead, I would leave it on the counter
and let it run till it was deep dead. Only did that 3 times. My last
comment on the subject, and thanks for the interaction: dr.

You wrote:
Did you "condition" your shaver battery by
leaving it running on the counter until dead,
recharging, and repeating 2 or 3 times when
your first got it?
Anonymous
January 19, 2005 5:10:53 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Look Guys, we are driving this issue into the ground. Do what you want,
all I know is that, for me, conditioning Lion batteries has a positive
effect on their lifetime of usage.

FWIW, I quote the following from the instructions included with the Mugen
2000 mAh Lion battery I bought for my Pocket PC. I was going to post a
scanned JPG of it, but thought I'd open a whole new negative thread of
"posting binaries in text newsgroups" <G>.

"ATTENTION

Batteries should be initially charged and discharged 3-5 times to achieve
stated capacity.

Always charge the new battery for at least 12 hours before use.

(Then a few lines of avoiding high temperatures and using approved
chargers)"

This from a manufacturer of Lion batteries.
The defense rests...
Anonymous
January 19, 2005 5:10:54 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Traveling Man wrote:
> Look Guys, we are driving this issue into the ground.
> Do what you want, all I know is that, for me,
> conditioning Lion batteries has a positive effect on
> their lifetime of usage.

"we are driving this issue into the ground"

Nice. Is this supposed to be the endall to the discussion?
After which you go on to say:

"all I know is that,"

HOW do you know this? Anything more than
just your perception? How about some actual
science? These are physical things after all and
not some sort of art open to individual interpretation.

"for me,"

Oh, for you this is true but maybe not
for everybody? Something to do with
body chemistry maybe?

>
> FWIW, I quote the following from the instructions
> included with the Mugen 2000 mAh Lion battery I
> bought for my Pocket PC.

Instructions included by whom? Mugen or who you
bought the battery from?

> (Then a few lines of avoiding high temperatures and using
> approved chargers)"

Approved chargers? Approved by Mugen?

> This from a manufacturer of Lion batteries.
> The defense rests...

And how do you know that these same instructions aren't
included with *every* consumer battery they sell?
Regardless of type or application? Maybe they just
found that they greatly reduced the number of calls
to support asking "There aren't any instructions to
condition my battery, how do I go about doing that?"

I know it's not going to be as fun as continuing the
discussion here with beliefs and feelings but you
might try searching

sci.chem.electrochem.battery for "conditioning
Li-Ion batteries" to see what some real scientists
and engineers in the field have to say about it.
They actually use real live scientific terms and
references.

-Quick
Anonymous
January 20, 2005 5:22:17 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 11:05:03 -0800, Quick wrote:

> "we are driving this issue into the ground"
>
> Nice. Is this supposed to be the endall to the discussion?

For me, yes. I've wasted enough time on this subject already.

>> FWIW, I quote the following from the instructions
>> included with the Mugen 2000 mAh Lion battery I
>> bought for my Pocket PC.
>
> Instructions included by whom? Mugen or who you
> bought the battery from?

From Mugen.

>> (Then a few lines of avoiding high temperatures and using
>> approved chargers)"
>
> Approved chargers? Approved by Mugen?

Yep.

> And how do you know that these same instructions aren't
> included with *every* consumer battery they sell?

I don't, and neither do you. The instructions were printed on the card that
identified that specific battery. I would think they would not recommend
conditioning if it was not needed or could cause warranty failures.

> sci.chem.electrochem.battery for "conditioning
> Li-Ion batteries" to see what some real scientists
> and engineers in the field have to say about it.
> They actually use real live scientific terms and
> references.

Bully for them. Research can be tailored to meet any results a person wants
or needs.

Like I said, do what makes you happy. I'll do the same for me.
Anonymous
January 20, 2005 5:22:18 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Traveling Man wrote:
>
> I don't, and neither do you. The instructions were
> printed on the card that identified that specific
> battery. I would think they would not recommend
> conditioning if it was not needed or could cause warranty
> failures.

Yes, they would not recommend it if it might cause
warranty failures. They very well might recommend
it if it was not needed and did no measurable harm.
Simply so people like you (probably a majority using
these batteries in these types of applications) will
feel better. Probably reduces their support costs
answering the phones and may even increase sales.
It may be the very same card they attach to their
NiCad and NiMH batteries -- savings in literature
costs. Just change the battery model in the document
and run off a few thousand.

> Bully for them. Research can be tailored to meet
> any results a person wants or needs.

durrr, this is not research. It's fact. At least until you
repeal the laws of physics. Don't look at it, it's easier
to deny that way.

> Like I said, do what makes you happy.
> I'll do the same for me.

I did not intend to get you to do anything differently.
In fact there is little measurable negative effect from
conditioning Li-Ion batteries. It is very worth doing if
it makes you feel better. Just don't claim there is a
physical gain by doing so.

-Quick
Anonymous
January 20, 2005 11:59:51 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Quick Wrote:
> wrote:
>
> Yes, they would not recommend it if it might cause
> warranty failures. They very well might recommend
> it if it was not needed and did no measurable harm.
> Simply so people like you (probably a majority using
> these batteries in these types of applications) will
> feel better. Probably reduces their support costs
> answering the phones and may even increase sales.
> It may be the very same card they attach to their
> NiCad and NiMH batteries -- savings in literature
> costs. Just change the battery model in the document
> and run off a few thousand.
>
> -Quick
Key word here is "probably" (reduces support costs). Do YOU have any
real hard facts backing this up? Have you called Mugen and talked to
the engineers who created this battery and then to the tekkie writers
who wrote the user manual for this battery? If not then, you are
reaming Travelling Man for not having any hard data to back up his
claim but then you don't have any to back up your claim. You might even
be right in your claim about support costs...but as you know, "might"
and "probably" don't cut it in the world of Newtonian physics.


--
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