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NForce4 boards 24 pin AUGH!

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January 31, 2005 6:20:46 PM

I'm sick of searching!!!

I have looked and looked and looked, wrote to Antec, been to motherboards.org and still cant get any answers...

So anyways, want to get a PSU that can handle the DFI Lanparty's NForce4 boards with a Athlon 64 4000+ with 2 SLI'd 6800GT Ultras and a gig of memory with 5 fans and two hard drives. And the ability to upgrade CPU's later. I'm assuming this totals well over 480W's without listing the other parts that will be added on.

I was looking at the Antec 550 EPS12v but no one can clarify if this is safe for this motherboard or if the 12v rails are split and if they are, if they have enough amperage....

This has been a frustrating search. recomendations are highly appreciated.

What is out there that has a power supply that has 24 pinms and can handle this wattage?

Can someone educate me on the needed wattage amperage per rail? and overall?

want to overclock but geez not convinced about any powersupply yet that is strong enough to handle what I want to do.

THANK YOU AHEAD OF TIME
January 31, 2005 6:33:01 PM

correction

I went here
http://www.jscustompcs.com/power_supply/
and after having to add on the extra 110 watts for the other 6800GT Ultra it was 540 watts!!!

seriously need help here, dont want borderline powersupply, want plenty to spare on all rails.

thanks
January 31, 2005 6:50:30 PM

called Antec and they swear the Neo480 will be plenty.. but asked about the EPS12V 550 and asked iif it was compatible with ATX cases and the board and they said yes....

:( 

considering they keep saying its for servers and not for ATX a little leary but Ill give it a shot

when I told him my wattage totalled 524 he was a little quiet LOL (didnt tell him that was possible max load)
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January 31, 2005 10:46:18 PM

The true550 should be able to hand that fine. If you want to be extra cautious or something you could get the Thermaltake Silent PurePower 680W, that should definatly work :) 

<A HREF="http://www.folken.net/myrig.htm" target="_new">My precious...</A>
January 31, 2005 11:37:41 PM

so your mobo takes a 24 pin connector too....does it also require an 8pin connector for the cpu power...? I am confused too about getting a new psu that is compatable with my mobo, and I too called antec and they didn't even know if there supplies were the right form for my setup. My mobo manual say's an atx ges supply is needed and pretty much nobody has been able to confirm for a fact that a psu with 24 + 8 connectors( like an eps12v) will work...?!? It shouldn't be this hard to buy a new psu...!
February 1, 2005 3:02:51 PM

You have too mcuh money. Give some to me.

______________
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...Hey wait a minute! A boat's a boat, but a Mystery Box could be anything. It could even be a boat
February 1, 2005 5:39:52 PM

I agree with ned all the way.

Whats wrong with buying a 20 to 24 pin adapter?
February 1, 2005 6:18:20 PM

I can't remember who said it, but I think I read on these boards that a 20 pin plug from the PSU will work in the 24 pin slot on the motherboards. The slot should be polarized so that you can only plug in the 20 pin connector in the correct direction.
February 2, 2005 1:45:29 AM

I believe PCI-E cards that have their own power source from the PSU can use 20 pin connectors. The extra 4 pins are for supplying power to the video card.
a b V Motherboard
February 2, 2005 3:31:05 AM

Fortron Source has been making 24-pin power supplies for many years.

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February 2, 2005 11:21:31 AM

Update info:

From: "Tiffany Ellsworth" <tellsworth@antec-inc.com>

The EPS 12V will not work. The power supply we suggest is the NeoPower 480. I have attached a product flyer for more information.

Please click on the link below to help you determine how much power you will need.

http://www.jscustompcs.com/power_supply/



How can this be possible?

The way I unerstand it is that PSU's can handle normally 60-70% of whatever they claim, if thats true then I'm going to be stuck with a PSU thats going to be rediculously high!

an 800W PSU at 60% is only 480 watts
so ill be stuck with a 1000W PSU (600WATTS @ 60%)

unless...I use two... hmmm wonder how to set that up...

one for motherboard... but can the other be used for hd's dvd cd fans ???or will that conflict/crash/go boom?

cause if I can that would be about 450 watts unclocked, unknown how much more of a percent that would be if overclocked.


I feel like I'm researching for a masters already! LOL

but I love it! :) 


is it safe to say that maybe they dont have a PSU yet for SLI overclockers?

does anyone know what AMPS are needed for a CPU? during normal use and overclocking? I know sits 1.4v and 1.5 but what are the amps needed for normal use and for overclocking? how can i get this info for other components?

at least this way i will know exactly what my system will need.


and if its not there... ill waiit till july...?
February 4, 2005 2:11:41 PM

The only Nforce4 boards that I have seen to date all have 24pin. the SLI's are power hungry. Thematake has a680watt that is 20and 24pin as well as sata and the other exstras needed for the new boards. It is not cheap but the reviews look good. I am in the same trouble as you, but with a twist,Have purchaced Aspire turbocase w/500w. good case may change the pwr supply but I have unreadable instructions, there are some wires I don't know about can any one help????????
February 4, 2005 3:30:35 PM

if your PSU can only handle 60% of it's claimed power you need to stop buying $10 crap PSUs. any decent name brand PSU(Antec, Enermax, SParkle/Fortron, PC POwer and Cooling), will be able to output more than their rated power, particularly Fortrons. Not sure wher eyou got this 60% number.

Also, be aware the the jscustompcs rater rates peak load for every device(unlikely that they'll all be at peak at same time), and seems to be generous even there. My old system that they rated at needing "at least" 396w was running on a 350w antec smartpower absolutely stable, with rock solid voltages, never fluctuated. Best guess, they make their guide with the knowledge that people tend to buy cheap PSUs, rather than spending a few more bucks for a good one, so have to put more of a cushion in their numbers to make up for this.

Now that I've gone back and seen that they sell custom built PCs in Raidmax case/psu combos(some of cheapest around), definitely would say that they pad their numbers for cheap PSUs that can't actually meet rated output.

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by etp777 on 02/04/05 11:32 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
February 7, 2005 4:39:28 PM

I'm currently building an SLI based system with the following Specs:

Lian-Li PC-V2000 Case
Asus A8N-SLI Mobo with AMD Athlon 63 3500+ Processor
2 BFG 6800 Ultra OC Graphics Cards
1-gig pc3200xlpro memory from Corsair (2-2-2-5 latency settings)
2 x 300GB Maxtor Ultra/16 (7200RPM drives)
500Watt PSU from MadDog to run the board and the Graphics Cards.

I plan on using an old AT power supply (i believe it is 250watts) to run my HDDs, DVD/CDRW Burner and fans which I got on ebay for $15.

Thermalright XP-120 Heatsink with a Panasonic Panaflo 120mm fan.

I'm still waiting on some parts so haven't had a chance to test my setup. I believe it will work fine.
February 12, 2005 6:00:13 PM

I'm certain that the higher the temperatures, the lower the efficency of any PU's percentage will drop and most are set at 25 C while in the summer, a non AC'd house can get well over 30C = 85F

the true 480 is Efficiency: >68% for example as said on new egg and since they say it'll last 80k hours at 25C I assume that is their temp range.

so I say 60% cause of the 5 degree increase

either way, I have yet to be satisfied that the information that I have read on forums and calulator sites is accurate enough to make an accurate decision on what power supply you should get for your system whether its plug and play or seriously overclocked...

I wish someone would give a detailed explanation of what the Athlon 64 boards use not only on watts but how many amps is used by each component and what rail!

Many sites say dont make the mistake of getting a PSU that can end up destroying your complete system... How can you do that if there isnt an accurate way to calculate that???

overclocking, room temperature, components: regular and overclocking.. I'm sure the list goes on... but cant someone take a stab at this and give people the opportunity to make a real decision and not a guess??????

and what about dual 12v rails?
lets make it even harder huh?

CPU
Motherboard
memory
video card VGA
video card PCIx
video card SLI
PCI sound card 24bit, etc
hard drives, 15kRPM, 10kRPM, etc.
pci fan card
case fans with or w/o lights, 80mm, 90mm, 120mm
CPU fan: retail, and upgrades
cooling systems: phase system to whatever
and who knows what else

SOMEONE must be able to create this list/check system

A simple check system on a look down menu, whatever
even an overclok question... max possible?
then add whatever increase

then in the end it displays as such

total wattage normal running
total wattage max load possible
max amps required: 3.3V, 5V, 12V (one rail)
max amps required if 2 rail 12V 12v1: x 12v2: x

and HOTTEST room temperature in house during year
this would subtract the efficiency rate accurately enough to compensate for summer heat temps if no AC in room, etc.



This would be more comprhensive and whether a beginner builder, beginning overclocker, or an old pro could appreciate and use as an excellent guide line

BUt even though I would love to write it, I hve no idea where to find the information about the max amps of a single component let alone wattage.

If someone can write this, everything would be more about Where can I find this type of PSU and trouble shooting as opposed to 2-20 people offering suggestions to a PSU that we have to guess is accurate.
February 14, 2005 4:34:52 PM

Current Speks:
Antec 400w p/s atx style...
1 x 6800 GT XFX
3500+
1 gb geil 3200
1 cdburner reduced from 1 cdburner and 1 dvd player
1 floppy...yep
1 asus A8N-Sli Delux
1 wd 10k 36gb
1 sb aud 2

So...kinda a medium end sli capable system...i will eventually be getting another 6800gt. I have problems running on this system, consisting of: DVD player won't read (so it went back to my other system), and i get an error from the nvidia drivers saying that my graphics card is underpowered and that it is going to downclock it to compensate.

I'm guessing the DVD problems are related directly to not having enough power...However, it could just be something weird going on with the DVD player, and the fact that i'm using a ATX style psu with my BTX style mobo. There is a possibility i suppose, that the error from nvidia isn't that it's actually low on power, but that there isn't any power running along the pci-e lines because of the 4 missing pins for powered pci-e (unless i'm mistaken here). I also can't be sure that it's downclocking my system. It is always at the same speed gpu 351, ram 1002.

I've seen that alot of other 6800gt's run at a different speed...371...but i wonder if all of those aren't bfg's (oc by manufacturer).

Anyway, so, i'm looking for a new btx style psu with enough headroom to allow for 2 more hds, a dvd burner and another gt. The hd's are just waiting to be hooked up...sigh.



Current machines running F@H:
Athlons: [2000+][64 3500+][64 3000+][366][1.3x2]
Pentiums: [P4 1.4][P3 933][X 3.0][P4 2.4x5]
February 14, 2005 4:43:26 PM

How were you going to turn on that 250w psu? You have a second mobo just to hook it up so it will turn on? Or do you know which pins to bridge on the psu?

<edit> OOOH AT style...nm...with one of those power buttons built in...gotcha...nm.

Current machines running F@H:
Athlons: [2000+][64 3500+][64 3000+][366][1.3x2]
Pentiums: [P4 1.4][P3 933][X 3.0][P4 2.4x5]
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by apesoccer on 02/14/05 12:46 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
February 14, 2005 4:58:07 PM

Here are some links to split 12V rail PSU's
<A HREF="http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?descripti..." target="_new">http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?descripti...;/A>
<A HREF="http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?descripti..." target="_new">http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?descripti...;/A>
<A HREF="http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?descripti..." target="_new">http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?descripti...;/A>

The last link is the best PSU that I have ever used. Its expensive, but doesnt have to work nearly as hard as some of the others and its super quite. The rails are as stable as I have ever seen. This is the first PSU that I have owned that actually was slightly over the specs on each rail. One more thing about the Thermaltake is that it actually has 3 +12V rails.

The way that you can tell which ones are the split rails is by looking at the specs. You will see either 1 or 2 +12V@15amps as well as the 3.3 and 5 and -12V. The amps vary with different PSU's. If there is only 1 +12V spec then its not the split rail type. It up to the manufacture of the MOBO as to whether or not a 20 pin will work on a 24 pin Mobo. I think that most 24 pin mobo's will work with a 20 pin PSU. I had an Epox that did fine. The Thermaltake that I listed has a 24 pin to 20 pin adapter so you could use it with any mobo.

READ THE STICKY AND WIN A PRIZE! ALL PRIZES CAN BE CLAIMED IN THE SECTION TITLED "THE OTHER"
February 14, 2005 7:58:40 PM

your problem is that you misunderstand efficiency. it's not referring to the output, but how much power it draws in. 60% efficiency means that to output 400w, it has to draw ~667w from the outlet. it will still output the 400w though.
February 15, 2005 12:25:30 PM

Well thats news to me too. Thx 4 the clairification!!

Current machines running F@H:
Athlons: [2000+][64 3500+][64 3000+][366][1.3x2]
Pentiums: [P4 1.4][P3 933][X 3.0][P4 2.4x5]
February 15, 2005 6:33:22 PM

Cheap PSU's can only handle 70% of what they rate themselves.

Other PSU's list the wattage they can actually handle, some even underrate themselves a bit to be safe.

The best way to tell is to google until you find people with stable systems similar to yours and see what supplies they are using.
February 21, 2005 3:05:09 PM

Your'e very welcome. sorry it took me a while to respond, haven't been around much.
February 21, 2005 8:01:44 PM

Just reading your post and noticed all 3 links are the same. Was the last one supposed to be a Thermaltake 680W? I don't remember if you are the one that suggested that one or not.
February 24, 2005 11:05:45 AM

Posted Jan 29, 2004 from homelanfed.com

Power, Power Everywhere, But Not a Volt To Drink?

Throughout the growth of the personal computer in the 80’s, 90’s, and now in the 3rd millennium, it has been a design that not unlike humans has had to endure some growing pains every now and then. Though format wars such as those between DVD + and – are often the most recorded of such growing pains, the PC has seen a much more constant pain in the form of power consumption and heat generation. With the greater computing power that computers have gained, the need for more electricity (and by extension more heat dumped out) rears its head out every few years, and those few years have once again rolled around.

Since the creation of the ATeXtended(ATX) specification back in the 90’s, it has required some minor revisions every now and then to keep up with power consumption, and such changes are pretty quiet. Besides the recent creation of the EPS12v standard(more on that later), the last major revision was the addition of the ATX 12v connector, the small 4pin square connector originally needed to provide extra juice to the then-new Pentium 4, and since then adopted by Intel and AMD alike. Since 2002 however, the ATX standard has run in to some issues related to power that it was never originally intended to cover in depth: video card power. We first saw this problem back in 2001 when 3dfx was showcasing its power hungry Voodoo 5 line, which with the high-end V5 6000, needed its own external “Voodoo Volts” power supply. But with 3dfx’s death, the issue was buried once again until 2002, when ATI released the Radeon 9700.

With the 9700 out and ATI not going the way of 3dfx, it became a real problem that had to be dealt with, more so once the GeForceFX 5800 hit the streets also needing a power connector. The unfortunate side effect of this is that the arms race between ATI and Nvidia has been spilling over in to motherboard and power supply design, and that things only became worse once the AGP Pro slot failed to catch on and Nvidia bumped up their power requirements to 2 independent connectors on the GeForce 6800 cards. This of course lead to the popularity of “dual-rail” power supplies that could power the motherboard/CPU and video card on separate rails, and what evolved is a sort of power anarchy among motherboards, video cards, and power supplies.

To the credit of the ATX group, their has been some effort on their part to reign in on this with the introduction of new standards for PCI-Express parts. While the ATX 12v connector was kept for locality reasons(it can go right next to the CPU, making life far easier for motherboard designers), the 20pin ATX plug was replaced with the 24pin EPS12v plug, which adds another 4 pins to help deliver more power to the PCIe slots(which can deliver more power than their AGP counterparts, up to 75W now) without taking power away from the CPU and other components. Video cards received some special attention here too, with a 6pin PCIe connector created that allows for power supply designers to more appropriately route power instead of having to worry about overbuilding the typically low-power 4pin molex connector to handle the demands of a video card.

However, in making this new standard the ATX group didn’t manage to lay down any plans for SLI or certain adaptors, which is where our anarchy problems today start. The first issue that some people are finding is that with SLI boards comes some new and interesting power distribution requirements. To be completely spec compliant, the second PCIe 16x slot also needs its 75 watts of power, but considering the relative massiveness of that kind of power, there’s no easy way to do it. One way is to simply draw more power from the EPS12v connector, but if we back up for a second, there is that dual-rail design to talk about. Because power and power draw can’t be perfectly balanced among the rails on a whim, the total power a system can use will never be rail1 + rail2, which leads to a problem when a device needs more power than just what a single rail can provide. What we’re seeing then is that with some dual-rail power supplies and even with the high-end ones, is that SLI boards their video cards are favoring the EPS12v connector too much, and that dual-rail supplies can’t provide enough power to the motherboard as a result. This causes a very odd situation where single-rail power supplies with a high amperage rating on their 12v line works better on some of these SLI boards, which is causing a lot of customer confusion, and some resentment. Thankfully for vendors, what’s a new power supply when you’re already shelling out upwards of $1000 just for a board and a pair of video cards, but it’s still a thorny issue.

To the credit of the boys over at Asus, they are taking a slightly different approach to the situation as you can see here, as their SLI board includes a molex plug on the board to help power the second PCIe slot. Unfortunately this hasn’t completely alleviated the problem among dual-rail power supplies, and it’s also encouraging another problem that’s best described as “connector hell.” Compared to just 5 years ago, we now have motherboards that don’t just need an ATX/EPS power plug, but need the second 12v plug, the molex plug, and their video cards(which for the sake of argument we’ll include as part of the motherboard as the larger whole) need the PCIe power connector. For user of a single-rail power supply, this requires just coming up with enough plugs on a strong enough power supply for everything(which thankfully isn’t as hard as it used to be), and it generates a precarious balancing act for dual-rail users. In short, it’s getting to be too hard to just plug in all the power connectors for a computer.

Even the vendors themselves are getting confused and are running in to issues related to all of this. Because not all power supplies come with a PCIe power connector, the design allows for an adaptor that will take molex plugs and let them be adapted to a PCIe connector to allow these older supplies drive new PCIe cards, but the PCIe connector design was built with Nvidia’s power-hungry 6800 Ultra in mind, so it was designed to carry 2 molex plug’s worth of power.

But remember at the same time that the new PCIe standard allows for more power on the PCIe card slot than AGP did, so there’s not as much of a need for that second molex plug’s worth of power; so to save end users some grief, when ATI built the adaptors for their PCIe X800 cards, they designed such an adaptor that takes a single molex, and built their cards in turn to only draw on one rail. Their plan backfired a bit though, as their adaptor wasn’t designed correctly and is missing a ground connector. On the plus side, it’s not the important ground connector that makes the difference between frying the card or not, but on the down side, it is the ground that the card uses to complete a circuit to make sure that the PCIe connector is plugged in. Because of this the card will fail to work thinking that it doesn’t have a PCIe power connection, but the fix isn’t much harder than replacing the cable with a proper one for $10 or so. But for ATI this is a lesson in it not always being wise to try to cut corners no matter the intentions, and yet another exhibit of the anarchy and connector hell problems that are continuing to evolve.

We wouldn’t be talking about this issue if we didn’t have a solution though, so a few people are probably going to cringe right about now: we need another new power standard. Call it ATX+, ATXX(X), ATY, I don’t really care, but high-end home/gaming hardware has worked itself to the point where just like high-end workstation hardware it needs its own standard. At the very least, the EPS12v connector needs to be built to provide more power, either by increasing tolerance or adding more pins, and the ATX 12v connector needs to be built in to the EPS12v connector too. And while we’re at it, increase the amount of power a PCIe 16x slot can provide so that it’s well overbuilt if it has to be, as long as the external power connector is no longer necessary(though I’ll be benevolent and say it can stay for compatibility with mid-range boards that don’t have the extra juice).

Now I’ll be the first person to admit that such a suggestion is about as ugly as they come(my sincerest condolences to the motherboard designs out there), but at this point, do we have much of a choice? High-end computing isn’t known for its falling power needs, and with the movement to dual-core CPUs later this year we’re on the verge of another jump in power usage, so now is as good as any time to try to make a more permanent fix. Otherwise, if we don’t put an end to this power anarchy and reign in on connector hell, how many more people are going to be left having to keep buying unnecessary new parts for their computers just to satisfy their computer’s power needs? The answer is greater than zero, and that’s too many people in the year 2005.
February 24, 2005 11:10:17 AM

NOTE on PCI-E CURRENT CAPACITY: There was some question about the maximum output capacity for PCI-Express because of the recent changes in the spec by Intel and nVidia. So to avoid confusion, a quick call was placed to Fortron.

They confirmed that up to 75W was available on for PCI-e. The latest spec demands as much as 150W. As far as we know, PCI-e VGA cards that demand that much power are not on the market yet, but you should be aware that 75W is the recommended maximum on this PSU.
February 24, 2005 11:16:54 AM

Sorry for the long post but wanted to show that to just say that this is where I am stuck, I'm sure most PSU's that are made now for SLI will work but I'm not satisfied that they are strong enough or set correctly so that it can send enough power to everything correctly and of course if it doesnt, you get errors, crashes, and eventually component failures... I've even heard people using the TRUE430 PSU for SLI boards that are running great but wonder how many months will it be later that they start having serious issues/ damage.

I really want the SLI system but I think the best bet is to wait for THG to get the article that they promised that they will have out regarding this very confusion/issue:

EMAIL response from THG

Subject: AW: FEEDBACK: PSU research with details needed
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 17:57:15 +0100


HI,
We are currently working on a PSU review.
Should be online within the next 2-4 weeks.
Best
Harald

I can only hope that this clarifies a lot once and for all.




<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by avenqer on 02/24/05 08:18 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
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