Do I have enough power?

[MadCat2099]

Hi kids! I've been hearing lately that a PSU is one of the most important parts of your rig. I'd like your esteemed opinion to see if I have enough power:

SYSTEM: Dell Dimension 8400
CPU: Pentium 4 550 3.4 GHz Prescott socket LGA775
RAM: 1024MB (2x512MB Samsung PC4300 DDR2-SDRAM)
MOBO: i925X chipset
VIDEO: ATi Radeon X800XL 256MB PCI-E x16
SOUND: Sound Blaster Audigy 2 (vanilla version)
CD: Samsung CD-R/RW SW-252S
DVD: Philips DVD+RW DVD8601 (w/Dual-layer write)
HDD: Maxtor 160GB 7200 RPM
<b>PSU: 350W DC</b>

So, is the 350W power supply enough, or should I go looking for a better one? If yes, how much wattage should I go for? Thanks in advance!


Mad Cat


<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by madcat2099 on 05/05/05 03:26 AM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[dunklegend]

Here's a link to a power supply calculator. But it matters not only the wattage but also the quality of the PSU, I asked if my PSU was OK but even though a lot of people (18 when I wrote this) has viewed my post nobody has answered.

I hope this helps

<A HREF="http:// www.jscustompcs.com/power_supply/ " target="_new">http:// www.jscustompcs.com/power_supply/ </A>

 

[MadCat2099]

Thanks for that link. I did the calculation, and it told me that the minimum power needed was 349W! That's rather borderline, but then, I'm not sure I punched in some of the requirement properly. For example, does my Logitech MX500 optical mouse and Logitech Extreme 3D Pro joystick use power? And if I have an external HDD attached to an 1394 IEEE port, do I have to check off another 8W for that? Either way, I'm kind of borderline, so I think I may get a new PSU. Thanks again!


Mad Cat

 

[fishmahn]

Mouse and Joystick: Yes they use power - mouse is included in the base wattage, joystick probably add a few watts.

Does that external HDD have separate power? If not, then check off a drive for it. If yes, then it doesn't draw from the system power.

Mike.

 

[MadCat2099]

In that case, I only need ~300W. The external HDD has it's own power source and I realized that my Audigy doesn't have the front bank, so it doesn't eat up that much power. And I am assuming that the AGP video cards require equivalent or more power than a PCI-Express card (which is what I have).


Mad Cat

 

[Crashman]

Dell power supplies are very good for their rating, far better than most aftermarket supplies: I think they're rated at constant load, rather than peak load.

If you really wanted more power, you'd also have to consider whether the power plug of the new supply matches the location on the Dell, many don't, and Dell has sheet metal over the other location.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>

 

[Renegade87]

Actually, it's not so much the watts you want to calculate, it's the AMPS!! That power supply calculator is ok, but it gives no amperage totals on any of the rails.

Try this:<A HREF="http://takaman.jp/D/index.html?english" target="_new">takaman's Power Supply Calculator</A>

"Nuke em till they glow, shoot em after dark"

 

[MadCat2099]

The website you provided is so out of date it's practically useless. I had to select "other [COMPONENT] not listed here" and it just gives me a bunch of 0 W answers.


Mad Cat

 

[Renegade87]

Actually it is a little out of date, but hardly useless. If you list your current hardware and get the specs you can fill in your own values or use whatever is closest to your config. The point is to get a close approximation to your required amperage so you can more acuratly pick the proper power supply. Personally, I try to pick the highest values in the catagories which don't have my specific component model and overestimate my actual needs. This way I'll have more headroom in case I want to add more [H]ardware down the road.

This might be more work, but that's the best way to ensure your PSU will be able to handle whatever you throw at it.

If you didn't want to do the work, you could use the other method of PSU selection. That would be to buy that $19 Deer 500w and keep a fire extinguisher and an extra $2000 handy for when the Deer bursts into flames.

It's up to you Dude. I was just trying to help.

"The world ends when you're dead. As long as your breathing you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man and give some back."

 

[MadCat2099]

Sorry dude, I know you are trying to help, and I thank you for that, but your link is more than "a little out of date". There is not one single spec on that site that even remotely matches any of the hardware that I have. Your idea of a "close approximation" would work if most of the parts were available, but they aren't; I mean, I might as well take a wild guess!

This reminds me of a recent Piranha Club comic I read in the paper where the old lady is cooking dinner for Syd. She doesn't have the exact ingredients for the dish, so she improvises (e.g. no butter, so she throws in margarine, no feta cheese, so she throws in cream cheese, etc). Syd ends up spitting it out and asks her what the hell she did. The old lady replies "Well, I followed the recepit!"

Nevertheless, I did the best approximations I could come up with and it gave me a 303W rating. When it then sent me to a website to search for PSUs, it rated how well most of the voltages line would work with my system. This is an extraordinarily useful tool, but alas, as I've pointed out, I simply cannot put that much faith into the approximations, especially since they are based on older technology that may not use as much power as todays does.


Mad Cat

 

[Renegade87]

So, I guess you'll use that other calculator that will only give you a wattage (which is next to meaningless) calculation? Good luck.

"The world ends when you're dead. As long as your breathing you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man and give some back."

 

[mozzartusm]

I hadnt noticed until now that your system is very close to the one I have. I dont see how 350 is going to cut it with that power hugry rig you have. High quality or not these systems put a strain on the PSU. Ive been running a software program the whole time that my sytem has been running and it monitors and records tons of info about each rail and how they perform under load or no load. If you card to see some of the data let me know. Im surprised that Dell didnt step the PSU you at lest 50W's The way the I see it is that you can go with a minimal PSU but keep in mind that it will have to work at fully capacity most of the time. The by product here is heat which is waste both in energy and in your pocket book when the power bill comes. If your going to get a new PSU then you should get one that will allow you growth in the future. I have gone to the split rail type and have had nothing but good things to come from it. You are correct IMO when you stated that the PSU is one of the most important components in a system. What will you be doing with this rig?

If I would have shot you when I had the chance, I would be out by now
Intel P4 550(3.4)@<font color=green>5Ghz</font color=green>

 

[MadCat2099]

Renegade, get a clue, would you. As I have already stated, how the hell am I supposed to be sure that the PSU recommendations for the APPROXIMATED system I entered in are going to function well with my ACTUAL system. I could buy a recommended PSU that works well with the approximation I put into the calculator, but when I use it in my actual machine, it could fry because the system are NOT the same. For some reason, you do not seem to understand this very basic concept, and I'm getting a little tired of your "Fine, burn down your stupid computer" attitude. It's not helpful and is downright irritating.


Mad Cat

 

[MadCat2099]

Well, Mozz, I originally only had a Radeon X300SE in their but replaced it because it was crap for gaming. I've used both Renegade's and that other PSU calculator, and both gave me a minimum rating of ~300W. I used the caclulator at PC Power & Computing and it recommended a 425W PSU specifically for a Dell, but it was for the Dimension 8300 (SATA) and not the 8400 that I have (I doubt the difference between the two is large, but I still wish I knew what it was).

The problem I am having is that the whole issue of PSUs is still a big enigma. If you require a 300W PSU, you should buy a 400W one because it only performs well at 310W, but if you buy the 400W one it's still not enough because you have to check the Amps on the voltage rails and yadda, yadda, yadda. And then no one seems to be able to give a good indication on who is a good PSU manufacturer. On another thread for example, a couple of people have stated they highly recommend people don't buy Antec PSUs, despite the fact they are a trusted PSU maker.

I can't even make sense of Tom's articles: practically all the PSU they recommend barely exist on the market, if at all! I have yet to find a Fortron, Zippy or I-Star PSU available for sale to Canada. I can barely find them for sale in the States as it is!


Mad Cat

 

[Renegade87]

Look, rather than flaming me because i'm trying to help you, read this: <A HREF="http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=844691" target="_new">HOW TO BUY A PSU (or how to determine if your old one is up to it)</A>. There is tons of info here that'll make your head spin and these guy's really know they're stuff.

"The world ends when you're dead. As long as your breathing you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man and give some back."

 

[MadCat2099]

Thanks for that link, Renegade. That post explains how to better use the power calculator you recommended earlier, but it will require a LOT of extra research to figure out the stats of not only my PC, but the one we're trying to build for my brother.


Mad Cat

 

[Renegade87]

No Problem Mad Cat. I did say from the outset you'd have to do some work. Now that we got past that, what is your budget for this PSU?
If $150 isn't totally out of your range you might want to contact <A HREF="http://www.pcpowercooling.com/home.htm" target="_new">PC Power & Cooling</A> as they do make direct Dell OEM replacements and PCP&C makes argueably the best desktop PSU you can buy. Where your Rig is so new, you may have to call them though. I think the Turbo-Cool® 425 Dell Deluxe Power Supply might just fit your needs, but you may opt for more power (especially on the +12v rail) in which case you'd want the Turbo-Cool® 510 Express Power Supply, but I don't know if they make the 510 in a direct Dell OEM replacement. Call them.

BTW, I do not work for PCP&C in any way shape or form. Just a satisfied customer who knows of many, many other satisfied customers is all.

"The world ends when you're dead. As long as your breathing you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man and give some back."

 

[MadCat2099]

Alright, I will contact them then. It occurred to me that I might be having PSU problems after all, as I intermittently "lose" the DVD drive every once in a while when I boot up. I'm starting to think that it's due to a PSU power shortage.

And I did check PC Power & Cooling's website and they recommended the 425W for me. I will contact Dell and PC P&C and see what else I can do.

On the other hand, I now have to find power usage info for my <A HREF="http://forumz.tomshardware.com/hardware/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=574245#574245" target="_new">brother's computer</A> that we're trying to put together. Just off the top of your head, do you know of any sites which rate power usage for components like the motherboard and optical drives? Thanks again!


Mad Cat

 

[Renegade87]

Dude,

After double checking your specs, I realized that your Dell looks like it's new(going by the mobo & chipset). If you're having a prob with the OEM PSU, won't they honor the warranty? Or have you been messing around inside? They don't like that. LOL Anyways, using the specs provided, I used <A HREF="http://takaman.jp/D/?M=PcbAHQbd@de@dSCSqTiUQk@cXAYbZAZavHBMZ&english" target="_new"> takamans </A> and maxed out all the values (don't pay too much attention to the selection of the hardware itself, I chose the pieces which require the most power to operate properly) as in the end will give you some headroom.

It looks like that PCP&C TC 425 you looked at will fit the bill power wise (amps and watts) but you need to ask them if they can make you one with the ATX2.01 standard 24 pin mobo connector and also provide the PCIe connector for your Radeon 800XL.

As far as your bro's mobo goes figure 25w +3.3@3A +5@2A +12@.5A just to be safe. Takamans is the only calculator I know of that will break out the amps as well as the wattage even though the selections are dated.

"The world ends when you're dead. As long as your breathing you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man and give some back."

 

[MadCat2099]

Well, after doing a LOT of researching and much headscratching, I think my brother is going to go with the <A HREF="http://www.maxpoint.com/home/products/pow_supp/spec_pg/noisetaker2/index.htm" target="_new">EG-425P-VE SFMA Noisetaker 2.0 420W PSU</A>. Do you know if the two 12V rails on this PSU can work in tandem? For example, one 12V rail is used for the CPU and hard/optical drives while the other is used for the motherboard and anything attached to it and the fans. We calculated that 18A on both 12V rails should be enough for CPU+drives/Mobo respectively, but if the drives suck up a lot of power at once (unlikely, I know) can the CPU use the mobo's 12V rail to get extra power?

As for my system, any PSU problems I might be having could be due to me upgrading my video card. My system originally came with a Radeon X300SE card which I swapped for a X800XL. Now, the X800XL does not need an extra power connector as it runs well under 75W, but I'm not sure the PSU was designed to handle that extra power. Plus, I've been thinking of getting a TV-tuner/capture card, which will only increase the load.

I used PCP&C's power selector for my Dell (I used their Dimension 8300 specs as I assume it's the closest to my 8400) and they recommended me the TC 425 Dell Deluxe. What worries me, however, is that the TC 425 Dell Deluxe only provides 20A on it's only +12V rail; according to Takaman's, I need 19A!!! That's really cutting it close. I think I'd be better off using the same Enermax PSU as my brother.


Mad Cat
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by madcat2099 on 05/06/05 02:54 AM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[Renegade87]

Mad Cat,

The +12V1 Rail powers the CPU, mobo, +12V power for PCI cards and +12V power via the AGP slot. The +12V2 Rail powers everything else, including the Auxillary Power to the Video Card(s)

What's also important here is that your Hard Drives draw the most power when they spin up at boot up. So, if you're on the hairy edge on +12v2 that could be a problem.

Go Back to <A HREF="http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=844691" target="_new"> HOW TO BUY A PSU (or how to determine if your old one is up to it) </A> and <A HREF="http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=792566" target="_new"> Before Making a Thread About Buying a PSU.... </A>

You may have to hunt around a bit, but all the info you need (and much, much more) should be there.

As far as your worries with the PCP&C TC Dell 425 Deluxe being able to handle your amperage loads, I agree, at first glance it looks like you might be cutting it close with a projected 19A draw, but remember, when I did the calculations, I projected for worst case and highest possible draw (especially on the +12v Rail) which should give you another amp or 2 margin for error. Especially since that X800XL doesn't have the extra +12v power draw (as I originally thought it did).

Now the question really becomes, do you want to go for the Turbo Cool 510 Express/SLI instead? And do they make a Dell compatable version of the 510 Express/SLI? I seem to remember Crash mentioning "you'd also have to consider whether the power plug of the new supply matches the location on the Dell, many don't, and Dell has sheet metal over the other location." Which would seriously narrow your choices as far as aftermarket PSU's go.

Give PCP&C a call and explain your situation. Have your hardware config ready. They will custom build you a PSU. If you go with the 510, you will be very happy and secure in the knowledge you got one of the best desktop PSU's available (if not the best). But, be advised, it won't be cheap. But the best never is.

Enermax makes a good product, but it may not fit your particular application as Crash suggested.

"The world ends when you're dead. As long as your breathing you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man and give some back."

 

[MadCat2099]

Ok, in that case, when we buy my brother's computer, I'll check to see if his Enermax PSU would work in my Dell, and if it doesn't, I'll give PCP&C a call. Regardless, I still have a couple of questions:

1. Does anyone know if the i925X chipset, especially ones built by Dell, support the ATX 2.0x PSUs? Because I honestly don't think there is an ATX 1.3 PSU out there with enough amps on it's +12V rail to give me what I need.

2. One thing I don't understand about the [H]ardForum post: the guy says I should budget extra amps for the spin-up of the HDD and fans and optical drives; he mentions that they draw about 4 times the power at spin-up then when static, but when he does the sample caluclations, he doesn't INCREASE the amps! Are the numbers provided by the PSU calculator and by manufactuers the maximum spin-up load required?

3. I'm also not clear what I am to do if I have integrated components, like integrated ethernet. Is that factored into the mobo's power requirements, or do I have to add it in as if it was a PCI card. Come to think of it, my Broadcom Gigabit integrated ethernet uses the PCI-Express X1 bus!


Mad Cat


<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by madcat2099 on 05/07/05 04:35 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[Renegade87]

Good questions Mad Cat. Lets take em one at a time.

"1. Does anyone know if the i925X chipset, especially ones built by Dell, support the ATX 2.0x PSUs? Because I honestly don't think there is an ATX 1.3 PSU out there with enough amps on it's +12V rail to give me what I need."

The i925X boards natively support an ATX 2.0 PSU with 24 pin mobo connector and single or dual (or more in some cases) +12v Rails. You know, originally I thought there were plenty of ATX 1.3 PSU's which supply more than 24A on the single +12v Rail. There are several (including 1.3/2.0 hybrids), but not as many as I first thought. Remember, the ATX 1.3 PSU's could come with a 20 pin mobo connector and 20-24pin adapter or the universal (one for all) type like OCZ has. The ATX2.0 PSU's (and most anything new available these days) come with a 24 pin mobo connector (or universal type) standard and a 24-20 pin adapter. It can get confusing with all the possible connector options available. Below are 3 units I can think of which are rated at better than 24A +12v.

<A HREF="http://www.ocztechnology.com/products/ModStreamSpecSheet.pdf" target="_new"> OCZ Modstream 450/520 </A>
<A HREF="http://www.enermax.com.tw/products_page.php?Tid=1&gon=249&Gid=18&Gid2=22" target="_new"> Enermax EG465 </A>
<A HREF="http://www.ultraproducts.com/product_info.php?cPath=38_57&products_id=161" target="_new"> Ultra X-Connect 500W ATX PS </A>

There are even ATX 2.03 PSU's that come standard with a 20 pin connector running with a single +12v Rail.
<A HREF="http://www.pcpowercooling.com/products/power_supplies/highperformance/turbocools/510/index.htm" target="_new"> PC Power & Cooling Turbo Cool 510 series </A> Want more power? Try this <A HREF="http://www.pcpowercooling.com/about/index_whatnew.htm" target="_new">PC Power & Cooling Turbo Cool 850 SSI </A>

"2. One thing I don't understand about the [H]ardForum post: the guy says I should budget extra amps for the spin-up of the HDD and fans and optical drives; he mentions that they draw about 4 times the power at spin-up then when static, but when he does the sample caluclations, he doesn't reduce the amps! Are the numbers provided by the PSU calculator and by manufactuers the maximum spin-up load required?"

There is a ton of info in that Sticky (see above-[H]ardForum HOW TO BUY A PSU (or how to determine if your old one is up to it) and it can get very involved and quite confusing.

When you use Takaman's you should be applying 90% utilization on the system as a whole and Apply 100% utilization to drives and fans (as I did when I did your system). That should cover your concerns there.


Sorry for droning on. Your Dell shipped with a 350w PSU and the only thing you added was that Radeon X800XL right? If you can check the rated amperages on your stock PSU, then you know what your (claimed) starting point is. Lets say 16A-18A on the +12v Rail. If you got a quality 450w-600w PSU in the neighborhood of say 30A-36A +12v you should be all set. As that is the most critical Rail of the 3 on most modern systems.

"3. I'm also not clear what I am to do if I have integrated components, like integrated ethernet. Is that factored into the mobo's power requirements, or do I have to add it in as if it was a PCI card. Come to think of it, my Broadcom Gigabit integrated ethernet uses the PCI-Express X1 bus!"

Another good question. I never thought about this one, but it would seem to me that the integrated components would be factored into that 23.5w 3A +3.3v 2A +5v .3A +12v estimated calculation. That's just my opinion. I could be wrong. That's why I like to really go overboard on the calculations to leave as much headroom for upgrades and OCing as possible.

"The world ends when you're dead. As long as your breathing you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man and give some back."

 

[MadCat2099]

Renegade
When you use Takaman's you should be applying 90% utilization on the system as a whole and Apply 100% utilization to drives and fans (as I did when I did your system). That should cover your concerns there.

I did that, but that's not what I'm referring to. Unfortunately, I made an error in my original post: I meant to say that when the poster did the sample calculation for start-up amps including HDD and fan spin-up, he didn't INCREASE the amps required by the peripherals. What I'm wondering is if takaman's PSU calculator gives you static values or spin-up values for the HDD and fans and such.

Another good question. I never thought about this one, but it would seem to me that the integrated components would be factored into that 23.5w 3A +3.3v 2A +5v .3A +12v estimated calculation. That's just my opinion. I could be wrong. That's why I like to really go overboard on the calculations to leave as much headroom for upgrades and OCing as possible.

Well, that is a questionable. As we can both agree, many of the components in Takaman's are rather old, especially compared to my system. It's not impossible that the mobo Takaman's uses is one of those older mobo models that have very little integrated perihperals. As far as I know, integrated peripherals are a fairly new trend these days.

But in addition to that, as I mentioned, my integrated ethernet uses a PCI-Express x1 bus. When I factored in an ethernet card on Takaman's it only listed it on the 5V rail, but I know that the PCI-Express architecture is designed to provide a LOT more power via the bus than even the AGP bus/slot. So it's possible that the new PCI-Express bus/slots could be using the +12V rail, which could significantly change the power requirements for my system.

Sorry for droning on. Your Dell shipped with a 350w PSU and the only thing you added was that Radeon X800XL right? If you can check the rated amperages on your stock PSU, then you know what your (claimed) starting point is.

I can't - as far as I can tell, the idiots put the specs sticker on the PSU in such a way that it's right next to another component and as such impossible to read (even by using a dental mirror to reflect the specs!) I only know that I have a 350 W PSU (and that's ALL I know about the PSU) because the 8400 manual states it is a 350W PSU. I suppose if I call Dell I might be able to get more information out of them, but given that they are a big company with tech support in India designed to deal with computer illiterate morons (no offense to anyone), I don't have high hopes.


Mad Cat