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Original EQ Had IMMERSION

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Last response: in PC Gaming
Anonymous
January 27, 2005 7:20:35 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

The level of IMMERSION within EQ1 has been dropping sharply:

* Levels 1-10 zip by too fast now, as though the developers think they
are worthless. No wonder they now place next to zero emphesis on the
starting cities.

* They made one big city, PoK, that everybody goes to so now the culture
of the individual cities -- EQ1's biggest charm -- has become virtually
worthless. No characters truly start as warriors of Halas or paladins
of Felwithe anymore -- they have been streamlined to start as slaves in
their starting zone. Players no longer identify themselves as "yes, I
started in my noble city of Kaladim", instead it is: "I started like
you in the same place, doing the same thing, and a slave at that." (that
is the net effect of their new slave revolt tutorial). IMMERSION was
taken away right there.

* Insta-travel abounds so the world has shrunk to nothingness. If
everything can be reached within minutes then nothing is worth reaching

* trolls lost Grobb and get shafted in everything. Trolls no longer
have anything and are regarded as nothings rather than dangerous
dwellers of Grobb. Remove all racial xp penalties (and bonuses!)

* Nights are now bright enough so even night-blind people do not need a
light source. It was great back when, as a night-blind Erudite I had a
moonlit night and was greatful things were just a touch brighter; other
nights I would sometimes run inside Blackburrow because there was more
light and things were too dark outside in Qeynos Hills. Things were
immersive then. Often you would see night-blind races running around
with smoking torches, or a torch coming at you through the darkness.
Whoa, that was cool.

* They might as well go the EQ2 route and remove the charming cultural
cities and make the characters originate within their new tutorial zone
and have no option whatsoever of starting life within their own native
newbie zones.

* newbie life was better back when you had to go find where your
guildmaster was (hey, that was a quest in itself), and strive hard to
save up for your first large bag. Now they give away backpacks to the
idiot newbies.

* instanced dungeons mean you cannot just walk by and see people
fighting in the EQ world. That in itself was a pleasure. You could
walk by, see them fighting, chat, give advice, perhaps buff them a bit.

Some true improvements have been made for EQ1, but most of the changes
have ruined the EQ experience for me. They have grown this game so
"horizontally" and spread the populations out over so many zones that
rarely do I see many people grouping anymore. They should of grown the
game more "vertically", adding the new zones to the original 3
continents. They could of fleshed out the continent of Odus by adding a
few more zones there and arranging them so more traffic goes through
Erudin & Paineel, to bring more life to those areas. Or they could add
high-level dungeons to Faydwer to bring more people there so the old
charm of that place continued as a meeting place for the inhabitants of
that continent.

Much of the charm of the original EQ is gone. The developers will never
fathom the "charm" or "immersion" element. It was actually comforting
to walk through East Commons and here the people trying to get a good
bargain on something; the bazaar not only took away that charm but
multiplied the twinking problem times a hundred-fold. The original
developers would work legally to stop EQ items from being eBayed, but
the current developers let IGE sell platinum by the boatload.

Whatever good elements exist within EQ2 (there aren't many) could of
been worked into EQ1, but what is going to harm EQ1 AND EQ2 the most is
there being two versions of the same EQ. And why fight for Norrath in
EQ1 when you know everything is doomed to destruction inevitably anyhow?
Why fight for the glory of Halas when it later is destroyed in the
timeline in EQ2? Why enjoy the pleasures of Rivervale when it is
doomed?

EQ1 in its infancy was more about role-play and IMMERSION, and it
incorporated it well from the very beginning. Roaming about Qeynos you
would see maybe a few barbarians, some humans, and some Erudites,
because they belonged there. Any high elves you saw, were looked at
with surprise because they were great journeyers and had either managed
to hassle with a wizard (hmm, even those teleports should be removed) or
had traveled the dangerous path through the countryside. That path
between Freeport and Qeynos was made dangerous to low-level people FOR A
REASON, it added to immersion.

The slow boat rides were FOR IMMERSION; you felt it was real. The long
treks were for IMMERSION. The dark was for IMMERSION. Starting towns
were for IMMERSION. Initial poverty was for IMMERSION. Struggling to
buy your next meal was IMMERSION.

That immersion is forever gone.

More about : original immersion

Anonymous
January 27, 2005 7:20:36 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

I remember going to BlackBurrow with my iksar for faction.. and people
where like.. wow! an iksar!

Back then faction ment everything.. Now everyone is just good ol buddy
buddy.
Anonymous
January 27, 2005 7:20:36 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Rhogar wrote:
> The slow boat rides were FOR IMMERSION; you felt it was real. The
long
> treks were for IMMERSION.

Is frustration really the same as immersion? I couldn't imagine only
having a couple hours to play, getting a /tell from a group of friends
to meet them in a zone that is forever away. Get to the docks, barely
miss the boat and have to wait for the next one (I don't remember the
time, was it 15mins, 30mins?). Then spend 30mins riding the boat.
Then run across however many zones to get to your friends. Suddenly,
you are down to an hour or less of playing time. Yay, immersion!

I could see them leaving the long way around, but not forcing it on
people. If I want immersion in a fantasy world, I believe
teleportation supports that. If others don't, I have nothing against
them spending an hour to get somewhere. Please, don't keep unnecessary
timesinks in in the name of immersion though.
Related resources
Anonymous
January 27, 2005 10:13:07 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Rhogar wrote:
> The level of IMMERSION within EQ1 has been dropping sharply:
>
[cut]
>
> The slow boat rides were FOR IMMERSION; you felt it was real. The long
> treks were for IMMERSION. The dark was for IMMERSION. Starting towns
> were for IMMERSION. Initial poverty was for IMMERSION. Struggling to
> buy your next meal was IMMERSION.
>
> That immersion is forever gone.

I don't agree with everything in your post but I agree 100% with the
conclusion. Dozens of small changes, each of which seemed like an improvement
and got rid of something annoying have combined to make the game worse, not
better, and that's the reason.
Anonymous
January 27, 2005 11:12:09 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

/agree

"Rhogar" <nospam@nospam.com> a écrit dans le message de
news:MPG.1c62b4aef74b23cf989689@news.sf.sbcglobal.net...
> The level of IMMERSION within EQ1 has been dropping sharply:
>
> * Levels 1-10 zip by too fast now, as though the developers think they
> are worthless. No wonder they now place next to zero emphesis on the
> starting cities.
>
> * They made one big city, PoK, that everybody goes to so now the culture
> of the individual cities -- EQ1's biggest charm -- has become virtually
> worthless. No characters truly start as warriors of Halas or paladins
> of Felwithe anymore -- they have been streamlined to start as slaves in
> their starting zone. Players no longer identify themselves as "yes, I
> started in my noble city of Kaladim", instead it is: "I started like
> you in the same place, doing the same thing, and a slave at that." (that
> is the net effect of their new slave revolt tutorial). IMMERSION was
> taken away right there.
>
> * Insta-travel abounds so the world has shrunk to nothingness. If
> everything can be reached within minutes then nothing is worth reaching
>
> * trolls lost Grobb and get shafted in everything. Trolls no longer
> have anything and are regarded as nothings rather than dangerous
> dwellers of Grobb. Remove all racial xp penalties (and bonuses!)
>
> * Nights are now bright enough so even night-blind people do not need a
> light source. It was great back when, as a night-blind Erudite I had a
> moonlit night and was greatful things were just a touch brighter; other
> nights I would sometimes run inside Blackburrow because there was more
> light and things were too dark outside in Qeynos Hills. Things were
> immersive then. Often you would see night-blind races running around
> with smoking torches, or a torch coming at you through the darkness.
> Whoa, that was cool.
>
> * They might as well go the EQ2 route and remove the charming cultural
> cities and make the characters originate within their new tutorial zone
> and have no option whatsoever of starting life within their own native
> newbie zones.
>
> * newbie life was better back when you had to go find where your
> guildmaster was (hey, that was a quest in itself), and strive hard to
> save up for your first large bag. Now they give away backpacks to the
> idiot newbies.
>
> * instanced dungeons mean you cannot just walk by and see people
> fighting in the EQ world. That in itself was a pleasure. You could
> walk by, see them fighting, chat, give advice, perhaps buff them a bit.
>
> Some true improvements have been made for EQ1, but most of the changes
> have ruined the EQ experience for me. They have grown this game so
> "horizontally" and spread the populations out over so many zones that
> rarely do I see many people grouping anymore. They should of grown the
> game more "vertically", adding the new zones to the original 3
> continents. They could of fleshed out the continent of Odus by adding a
> few more zones there and arranging them so more traffic goes through
> Erudin & Paineel, to bring more life to those areas. Or they could add
> high-level dungeons to Faydwer to bring more people there so the old
> charm of that place continued as a meeting place for the inhabitants of
> that continent.
>
> Much of the charm of the original EQ is gone. The developers will never
> fathom the "charm" or "immersion" element. It was actually comforting
> to walk through East Commons and here the people trying to get a good
> bargain on something; the bazaar not only took away that charm but
> multiplied the twinking problem times a hundred-fold. The original
> developers would work legally to stop EQ items from being eBayed, but
> the current developers let IGE sell platinum by the boatload.
>
> Whatever good elements exist within EQ2 (there aren't many) could of
> been worked into EQ1, but what is going to harm EQ1 AND EQ2 the most is
> there being two versions of the same EQ. And why fight for Norrath in
> EQ1 when you know everything is doomed to destruction inevitably anyhow?
> Why fight for the glory of Halas when it later is destroyed in the
> timeline in EQ2? Why enjoy the pleasures of Rivervale when it is
> doomed?
>
> EQ1 in its infancy was more about role-play and IMMERSION, and it
> incorporated it well from the very beginning. Roaming about Qeynos you
> would see maybe a few barbarians, some humans, and some Erudites,
> because they belonged there. Any high elves you saw, were looked at
> with surprise because they were great journeyers and had either managed
> to hassle with a wizard (hmm, even those teleports should be removed) or
> had traveled the dangerous path through the countryside. That path
> between Freeport and Qeynos was made dangerous to low-level people FOR A
> REASON, it added to immersion.
>
> The slow boat rides were FOR IMMERSION; you felt it was real. The long
> treks were for IMMERSION. The dark was for IMMERSION. Starting towns
> were for IMMERSION. Initial poverty was for IMMERSION. Struggling to
> buy your next meal was IMMERSION.
>
> That immersion is forever gone.
Anonymous
January 27, 2005 11:12:10 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Jason Hawryluk" <jh@3gcomm.fr> wrote in news:41f93ca7$0$6595$8fcfb975
@news.wanadoo.fr:

> "Rhogar" <nospam@nospam.com> a écrit dans le message de
> news:MPG.1c62b4aef74b23cf989689@news.sf.sbcglobal.net...
>> The level of IMMERSION within EQ1 has been dropping sharply:
>>
<snip>
> /agree
>

Thank you oh so very much for topposting and quoting the entire article...

--
On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons

On Steamfont in <Insanity Plea>
Graeme, 22 Dwarven Mystic, 20 Sage
Aviv, 11 Gnome Braeler, 14 Craftsman
Anonymous
January 27, 2005 11:32:26 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Rhogar <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in
news:MPG.1c62b4aef74b23cf989689@news.sf.sbcglobal.net:

> The level of IMMERSION within EQ1 has been dropping sharply:

I agree completely, though maybe not with all the reasons you cite. (Oi,
this could get ugly...)

> * Levels 1-10 zip by too fast now, as though the developers think they
> are worthless. No wonder they now place next to zero emphesis on the
> starting cities.

You can thank the player base for that one. Remember "The Vision"?
People can say what they want, but I think it had much more of the right
idea than the wrong.

> * They made one big city, PoK, that everybody goes to so now the
> culture of the individual cities -- EQ1's biggest charm -- has become
> virtually worthless. No characters truly start as warriors of Halas
> or paladins of Felwithe anymore -- they have been streamlined to start
> as slaves in their starting zone. Players no longer identify
> themselves as "yes, I started in my noble city of Kaladim", instead it
> is: "I started like you in the same place, doing the same thing, and
> a slave at that." (that is the net effect of their new slave revolt
> tutorial). IMMERSION was taken away right there.

I never really thought of it that way. I don't know if that's a big
factor or not. No matter. By the time the new tutorial was implemented,
all hope was lost anyway.

> * Insta-travel abounds so the world has shrunk to nothingness. If
> everything can be reached within minutes then nothing is worth
> reaching

Yup.

> * trolls lost Grobb and get shafted in everything. Trolls no longer
> have anything and are regarded as nothings rather than dangerous
> dwellers of Grobb. Remove all racial xp penalties (and bonuses!)

I have often wondered how the heck Troll Nation could have been overrun
by frogs. Maybe it was because they had no clerics and CH chains.

Racial penalties made a lot of sense back in the day, but not for some
time now.

> * Nights are now bright enough so even night-blind people do not need
> a light source. It was great back when, as a night-blind Erudite I
> had a moonlit night and was greatful things were just a touch
> brighter; other nights I would sometimes run inside Blackburrow
> because there was more light and things were too dark outside in
> Qeynos Hills. Things were immersive then. Often you would see
> night-blind races running around with smoking torches, or a torch
> coming at you through the darkness. Whoa, that was cool.

Yup.

> * They might as well go the EQ2 route and remove the charming cultural
> cities and make the characters originate within their new tutorial
> zone and have no option whatsoever of starting life within their own
> native newbie zones.

At this point it doesn't matter. Except for the true newbie, all value
the starting cities offer has been lost.

> * newbie life was better back when you had to go find where your
> guildmaster was (hey, that was a quest in itself), and strive hard to
> save up for your first large bag. Now they give away backpacks to the
> idiot newbies.

Idiot? A bit harsh there. The complimentary backpack is one change that
I applauded. One of the most frustrating things I can remember from my
first few new characters was not having enough inventory/bank slots.

> * instanced dungeons mean you cannot just walk by and see people
> fighting in the EQ world. That in itself was a pleasure. You could
> walk by, see them fighting, chat, give advice, perhaps buff them a
> bit.

Honestly though, LDoN aside, are there really that many instanced
dungeons? I don't seem to come across too many others in the middle of a
battle though, now that you mention it.

> Some true improvements have been made for EQ1, but most of the changes
> have ruined the EQ experience for me. They have grown this game so
> "horizontally" and spread the populations out over so many zones that
> rarely do I see many people grouping anymore. They should of grown
> the game more "vertically", adding the new zones to the original 3
> continents. They could of fleshed out the continent of Odus by adding
> a few more zones there and arranging them so more traffic goes through
> Erudin & Paineel, to bring more life to those areas. Or they could
> add high-level dungeons to Faydwer to bring more people there so the
> old charm of that place continued as a meeting place for the
> inhabitants of that continent.

Quite true. Still, people wanted new stuff, so what were they to do?

> Much of the charm of the original EQ is gone. The developers will
> never fathom the "charm" or "immersion" element. It was actually
> comforting to walk through East Commons and here the people trying to
> get a good bargain on something; the bazaar not only took away that
> charm but multiplied the twinking problem times a hundred-fold. The
> original developers would work legally to stop EQ items from being
> eBayed, but the current developers let IGE sell platinum by the
> boatload.

Oh, I think the devs have a very good idea of what contributes to charm
and immersion. After all, I'm sure many are players themselves.
Unfortunately when they bowed to too many customer demands, they wound
up with a situation where they had strayed too far from what made the
game famous and great in the first place. It's unfortunate in this case
that people demanded instant gratification over long-term rewards.

> Whatever good elements exist within EQ2 (there aren't many) could of
> been worked into EQ1, but what is going to harm EQ1 AND EQ2 the most
> is there being two versions of the same EQ. And why fight for Norrath
> in EQ1 when you know everything is doomed to destruction inevitably
> anyhow? Why fight for the glory of Halas when it later is destroyed
> in the timeline in EQ2? Why enjoy the pleasures of Rivervale when it
> is doomed?

That part doesn't bother me at all, really. I don't really connect the
two that much. I mean, sure, they're obviously linked in terms of lore,
but the games are different enough to stand on their own just fine.

Perhaps your point is more of a philosophical issue. In that case, the
characters shouldn't know any of that in the first place. ;) 

> EQ1 in its infancy was more about role-play and IMMERSION, and it
> incorporated it well from the very beginning. Roaming about Qeynos
> you would see maybe a few barbarians, some humans, and some Erudites,
> because they belonged there. Any high elves you saw, were looked at
> with surprise because they were great journeyers and had either
> managed to hassle with a wizard (hmm, even those teleports should be
> removed) or had traveled the dangerous path through the countryside.
> That path between Freeport and Qeynos was made dangerous to low-level
> people FOR A REASON, it added to immersion.
>
> The slow boat rides were FOR IMMERSION; you felt it was real. The
> long treks were for IMMERSION. The dark was for IMMERSION. Starting
> towns were for IMMERSION. Initial poverty was for IMMERSION.
> Struggling to buy your next meal was IMMERSION.
>
> That immersion is forever gone.

I agree, but I also have to admit that it's also due partially to the
fact that you can never go home again.

--
Rumble
"Write something worth reading, or do something worth writing."
-- Benjamin Franklin
Anonymous
January 27, 2005 11:37:01 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

In article <41f93d4c$0$23060$5a6aecb4@news.aaisp.net.uk>,
John Burton <john.burton@jbmail.com> wrote:
>I don't agree with everything in your post but I agree 100% with the
>conclusion. Dozens of small changes, each of which seemed like an improvement
>and got rid of something annoying have combined to make the game worse, not
>better, and that's the reason.

Hmmmm well I played for a while in 199? when it first appeared
and quit in frustration over long stretches of doing nothing but getting
to a place to do something, not to mention that I expected more role
playing ala' my D&D experiences but didn't see much.

I came back in 2003 to the same lack of RP but a much more
convenient game. Heck, if I wanted to take hour long boat trips I'd
install EQ: Boat Adventures. :-)

One man's immersion is another man's why bother I guess.
Anonymous
January 28, 2005 12:27:23 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

On 27 Jan 2005 20:05:49 GMT, Graeme Faelban wrote:

> "Jason Hawryluk" <jh@3gcomm.fr> wrote in news:41f93ca7$0$6595$8fcfb975
> @news.wanadoo.fr:
> > /agree
>
> Thank you oh so very much for topposting and quoting the entire article...

I think Wanadoo must be the French equivalent of AOL...
Anonymous
January 28, 2005 1:05:08 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"scritchy" <scritchy@gmail.com> wrote in news:1106862789.827898.221100
@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

>
> Rhogar wrote:
>> The slow boat rides were FOR IMMERSION; you felt it was real. The
> long
>> treks were for IMMERSION.
>
> Is frustration really the same as immersion? I couldn't imagine only
> having a couple hours to play, getting a /tell from a group of friends
> to meet them in a zone that is forever away. Get to the docks, barely
> miss the boat and have to wait for the next one (I don't remember the
> time, was it 15mins, 30mins?). Then spend 30mins riding the boat.
> Then run across however many zones to get to your friends. Suddenly,
> you are down to an hour or less of playing time. Yay, immersion!

Well, as far as that goes, it was 15-20 mins. max. waiting or riding.

Additionally, if you wanted to get with friends, my guess is you would do
so early on and stay there if the trip took a while. When it's part of the
normal game experience, you tend to plan for it or otherwise compensate, as
you would do in an immersive adventure setting.

> I could see them leaving the long way around, but not forcing it on
> people. If I want immersion in a fantasy world, I believe
> teleportation supports that. If others don't, I have nothing against
> them spending an hour to get somewhere. Please, don't keep unnecessary
> timesinks in in the name of immersion though.

That would never work. Even if people believe it to be the best solution,
they will take the shortcut 9 times out of 10. People want instant
gratification, not necessarily what's best for them or the game.

I've said it before, any game that tries to be all things to all people
will do well at none.

--
Rumble
"Write something worth reading, or do something worth writing."
-- Benjamin Franklin
Anonymous
January 28, 2005 2:21:27 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 20:12:09 +0100, "Jason Hawryluk" <jh@3gcomm.fr>
wrote:

>/agree

WOW! Shame you quoted a very lengthy posting to add ONE word to it.
You don't use newsgroups much, eh? Well, not based on THAT
performance.


Palindrome
Anonymous
January 28, 2005 3:26:06 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Rumbledor wrote:
> > I could see them leaving the long way around, but not forcing it on
> > people. If I want immersion in a fantasy world, I believe
> > teleportation supports that. If others don't, I have nothing
against
> > them spending an hour to get somewhere. Please, don't keep
unnecessary
> > timesinks in in the name of immersion though.
>
> That would never work. Even if people believe it to be the best
solution,
> they will take the shortcut 9 times out of 10. People want instant
> gratification, not necessarily what's best for them or the game.

When I started my Dark Elf Enchanter I decided not to use the POK books
for travel. This was after the boat gnomes took over from the boats so
I didn't have to wait for them. It was great. I learned much more of
Nek forest than I ever had before - my main at the time was a Dark Elf
too and I hadn't properly explored Nektulos with him. When I looked
beyond Nek I still stayed close by because I didn't want to be running
back if I died. So I explored the commonlands and befallen etc. I
think that it significantly increased my enjoyment of the game.

As an aside: It all fell apart at level 12 when I wanted to get to
Kurn's Tower. I couldn't work out the map for the Oceon of Tears and
so I had to explore to find the other boat gnome. I foolishly assumed
that such an important zone for travel would be of neutral alignment so
I stayed in my Dark Elf form and was attacked by an Elf. I was very
close to dieing and (again foolishly) jumped in the sea to get away. I
tried gate a number of times before it got off uninterrupted and then
landed at my bind point. I immediately fell unconscious! I recovered
and fainted two or three more times before I could start to walk to a
safer spot to recover. Talk about close! I then used the POK to get
to Kurn's Tower. Maybe I shouldn't have - I'm sure that I would have
achieved much more satisfaction had I got there on foot.

After a point, though, you would struggle to get groups if you went
everywhere on foot and there was another option. You'd get a group in
one zone and they might get bored there and want to go somewhere else.
If that place was too far away for the group to get there on foot you'd
probably be left behind and lose the group - or have to temporarily
suspend your restriction (just this one time - assuming it doesn't
happen next time you play)

steve.kaye
Anonymous
January 28, 2005 9:27:54 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

<snip>

Im surprised you didnt mention flagging for POP and GOD.
IMO what killed off eq1 more than anything. (By killing the smaller guilds)
Anonymous
January 28, 2005 12:30:51 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

On 2005-01-27, scritchy <scritchy@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Rhogar wrote:
>> The slow boat rides were FOR IMMERSION; you felt it was real. The
> long
>> treks were for IMMERSION.
>
> Is frustration really the same as immersion? I couldn't imagine only
> having a couple hours to play, getting a /tell from a group of friends
> to meet them in a zone that is forever away. Get to the docks, barely
> miss the boat and have to wait for the next one (I don't remember the
> time, was it 15mins, 30mins?). Then spend 30mins riding the boat.
> Then run across however many zones to get to your friends. Suddenly,
> you are down to an hour or less of playing time. Yay, immersion!

Actually, it rather meant travel was travel - you didn't play each day
with the same group of 4 people, you met folks who played your timezone
in an area and hunted with them generally until you got the wanderlust
again... moving on meant moving on. Next time you'd login at your new
location and get to know the locals. It was an immersive world, not
diablo.

> I could see them leaving the long way around, but not forcing it on
> people. If I want immersion in a fantasy world, I believe
> teleportation supports that. If others don't, I have nothing against
> them spending an hour to get somewhere. Please, don't keep unnecessary
> timesinks in in the name of immersion though.

Part of the immersion is that the barrier is there, that overcoming it
gives a sense of satisfaction, that visiting far away lands actually
entails visiting *far away lands*.

If everyone else is porting all over the shop the locals dont *exist*
for you to meet. The long arduous journey is meaningless. There is no
local community for you to get to know. Everyone else is playing
diablo and closing your eyes and pretending otherwise wont change that.

That consistent, localised, sectionalised world isnt just the game; the
zones, the npc's are just... filler. They're scenery. The *content* in
MMORPG's are the other players, the interesting people.

Matt
Anonymous
January 28, 2005 3:07:59 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

On 2005-01-28, murdocj <murdocj@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I suppose the boats really were immersive... they probably represented
> pretty well being in some desolate part of the world where you might
> sit on the docks for weeks, wondering when the boat would come. Of
> course, the immersion kind of disappeared when a voice out of the sky
> announced that the zone was being reset YET AGAIN because the
> ridiculous boats were hung up.
>
> Again, long slow trips are great when you are starting out and
> discovering places. When you know how to get to a place and the trip
> itself is a boring 30 minute run, it's not fun, it's a waste of time.
> Some method where you have to walk the first time but after that have
> gateways / gryphons whatever to speed up the process is ideal.
>

Yep. But thats what ports are for. Interestingly, in Velious they had
'portal teeth' that required you to visit a ring once by foot to collect
the tooth before you could be ported there. I have no idea why they
removed that ;/

Luclin had a different approach. At release it had no ports, but they
gradually phased them in once everyone had gotten used to the expansion
and bored of the travel.

Shrug. I liked the mad charges racing guilds to Ssra and stuff. But I
guess I was a minority.

Matt
Anonymous
January 28, 2005 5:11:59 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"steve.kaye" <nospam@giddy-kippers.co.uk> wrote in
news:1106900766.563994.306990@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

>
> Rumbledor wrote:
>> > I could see them leaving the long way around, but not forcing it on
>> > people. If I want immersion in a fantasy world, I believe
>> > teleportation supports that. If others don't, I have nothing
> against
>> > them spending an hour to get somewhere. Please, don't keep
> unnecessary
>> > timesinks in in the name of immersion though.
>>
>> That would never work. Even if people believe it to be the best
> solution,
>> they will take the shortcut 9 times out of 10. People want instant
>> gratification, not necessarily what's best for them or the game.
>
> When I started my Dark Elf Enchanter I decided not to use the POK
> books for travel. This was after the boat gnomes took over from the
> boats so I didn't have to wait for them. It was great. I learned
> much more of Nek forest than I ever had before - my main at the time
> was a Dark Elf too and I hadn't properly explored Nektulos with him.
> When I looked beyond Nek I still stayed close by because I didn't want
> to be running back if I died. So I explored the commonlands and
> befallen etc. I think that it significantly increased my enjoyment of
> the game.
>
> As an aside: It all fell apart at level 12 when I wanted to get to
> Kurn's Tower. I couldn't work out the map for the Oceon of Tears and
> so I had to explore to find the other boat gnome. I foolishly assumed
> that such an important zone for travel would be of neutral alignment
> so I stayed in my Dark Elf form and was attacked by an Elf. I was
> very close to dieing and (again foolishly) jumped in the sea to get
> away. I tried gate a number of times before it got off uninterrupted
> and then landed at my bind point. I immediately fell unconscious! I
> recovered and fainted two or three more times before I could start to
> walk to a safer spot to recover. Talk about close! I then used the
> POK to get to Kurn's Tower. Maybe I shouldn't have - I'm sure that I
> would have achieved much more satisfaction had I got there on foot.
>
> After a point, though, you would struggle to get groups if you went
> everywhere on foot and there was another option. You'd get a group in
> one zone and they might get bored there and want to go somewhere else.
> If that place was too far away for the group to get there on foot
> you'd probably be left behind and lose the group - or have to
> temporarily suspend your restriction (just this one time - assuming it
> doesn't happen next time you play)

Another perfect example of why "just not using PoK books" doesn't work.
You better prefer soloing.

--
Rumble
"Write something worth reading, or do something worth writing."
-- Benjamin Franklin
Anonymous
January 28, 2005 5:33:43 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

>
> Thank you oh so very much for topposting and quoting the entire article...
>

oop's
Anonymous
January 28, 2005 5:34:49 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Gary Beldon" <g.beldon@virgin.net> a écrit dans le message de
news:11niv0h9p5ufu97cbkclckoebre1akbsrn@4ax.com...
> On 27 Jan 2005 20:05:49 GMT, Graeme Faelban wrote:
>
> > "Jason Hawryluk" <jh@3gcomm.fr> wrote in news:41f93ca7$0$6595$8fcfb975
> > @news.wanadoo.fr:
> > > /agree
> >
> > Thank you oh so very much for topposting and quoting the entire
article...
>
> I think Wanadoo must be the French equivalent of AOL...
>
>
Was that supposed to be a poke at the French ?
Anonymous
January 28, 2005 5:34:50 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

On 2005-01-28, Jason Hawryluk <jh@3gcomm.fr> wrote:
>> > Thank you oh so very much for topposting and quoting the entire
> article...
>>
>> I think Wanadoo must be the French equivalent of AOL...
>>
>>
> Was that supposed to be a poke at the French ?

Not unless it was also a poke at all Americans. It was a suggestion
that the ISP's that market themselves as the 'easy mass market choice
for technical illiterates' (We'll get you shopping on the interweb
in no time, and you can listen to music too!) tend to attract the
technical illiterates. They in turn make.... mistakes.... when
learning online ettiquette, sometimes get their fingers scorched,
and then show their stuff by either saying 'oops, didn't know, wont
do that again' or going full on the offensive demanding that every
established user updates their standards of behaviour to fit the
newcomer.


You can probably see why the second mode of behaviour receives a
pretty derisive response.

Matt
Anonymous
January 28, 2005 5:35:57 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Palindrome" <damon-nomad@tiscali.co.uk> a écrit dans le message de
news:hntiv0pc4oahgl2aim2q8uqa52co61f31t@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 20:12:09 +0100, "Jason Hawryluk" <jh@3gcomm.fr>
> wrote:
>
> >/agree
>
> WOW! Shame you quoted a very lengthy posting to add ONE word to it.
> You don't use newsgroups much, eh? Well, not based on THAT
> performance.
>
>
> Palindrome

Yes SHAME ON ME !!!! get over yourself...
Anonymous
January 28, 2005 6:08:06 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Moopy <pingu@keg.zymurgy.org> wrote in
news:slrncvkaov.249g.pingu@keg.zymurgy.org:

> On 2005-01-28, murdocj <murdocj@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> I suppose the boats really were immersive... they probably represented
>> pretty well being in some desolate part of the world where you might
>> sit on the docks for weeks, wondering when the boat would come. Of
>> course, the immersion kind of disappeared when a voice out of the sky
>> announced that the zone was being reset YET AGAIN because the
>> ridiculous boats were hung up.
>>
>> Again, long slow trips are great when you are starting out and
>> discovering places. When you know how to get to a place and the trip
>> itself is a boring 30 minute run, it's not fun, it's a waste of time.
>> Some method where you have to walk the first time but after that have
>> gateways / gryphons whatever to speed up the process is ideal.
>>
>
> Yep. But thats what ports are for. Interestingly, in Velious they had
> 'portal teeth' that required you to visit a ring once by foot to
collect
> the tooth before you could be ported there. I have no idea why they
> removed that ;/

It made it too difficult for raids to gather in those far away places...

--
On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons

On Steamfont in <Insanity Plea>
Graeme, 22 Dwarven Mystic, 20 Sage
Aviv, 11 Gnome Braeler, 14 Craftsman
Anonymous
January 28, 2005 7:01:20 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

On 2005-01-28, Graeme Faelban <RichardRapier@netscape.net> wrote:
>>
>> Yep. But thats what ports are for. Interestingly, in Velious they had
>> 'portal teeth' that required you to visit a ring once by foot to
> collect
>> the tooth before you could be ported there. I have no idea why they
>> removed that ;/
>
> It made it too difficult for raids to gather in those far away places...
>

Hhahahaha because, yeah, TOV was simple to get to after they removed
the teeth ;) 

Ahh, happy days. Watching the guild trying to get across Sirens Grotto
and Eastern Wastes. I loved that stuff ;) 

Matt
Anonymous
January 28, 2005 11:48:01 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

<snip>

Though I am surprised (disappointed) by the reactions. You all feel that a
novice news group user should in fact go download the rules/etiquette etc
before responding to a post. I always thought (and I have been using various
news group's for about ten years, starting way back when BBS's where a fade)
that they were created for open discussion and not an excuse to flame and/or
attack someone that wishes to participate in the community. Sure did get a
lot of response from a "/agree". Granted it was a long post, and I should
have cut it, but then again if you are reading this then you have time.
Sorry to cost you all a couple of cent's.



Disappointed by the respect and/or lack thereof. It is to easy to disrespect
someone you do not even know, and/or make assumptions about that person.



Top posting is both good and bad, even though perceived as mostly bad. A one
word response is not considered bad in this case as I was not referencing
any one specific part of the original post rather the entire post. It was
also the first response therefore not scrambling other users comments and/or
making the thread hard to follow for new readers. It is true however, that
"not" cutting the original post was a mistake for that I apologize. But top
posting it was not, as if I had remembered to cut the original, the entire
post would have read "/agree".



Can't wait to see the flames. ; )

Jason...
January 29, 2005 3:01:21 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

In article <Xns95ECA6A0A4E5BRumbledorhotmailcom@204.127.204.17>,
Rumbledor@hotspamsuxmail.com says...
> 42 <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in
> news:MPG.1c643f62ac1d40ec9899df@shawnews:
>
> > In article <Xns95EC60BE887A7Rumbledorhotmailcom@63.240.76.16>,
> > Rumbledor@hotspamsuxmail.com says...
> >
> >> Well, I found starting with one bag to be just enough of an
> >> improvement to facilitate practical inventory management. When you
> >> have to run back to the bank or merchant every several minutes to
> >> avoid having to pass over even the trivial loot you desperately need,
> >> it doesn't allow for you to get very far at all from town or get
> >> started with much more interesting than the rats at the city gates.
> >
> > The rats & bugs & skells at the city gates were the only thing you
> > could kill. Where were you planning on going? By level 3 or so, you
> > could have easily had a small box or two, and maybe a spit or backpack
> > for larger items.
>
> Sure, if that's all you needed to focus on purchasing. There was also
> bandages (which weren't cheap at that level), sewing kit & patterns to
> craft tattered armor, maybe a bow, fletching kit and components, next
> level of spells, etc.

If you couldn't afford it you didn't buy it. A bow and arrows was a
luxury that you could live without for the first dozen levels. (and
never miss it either, although perhaps we didn't know that at the time.)
My first bows came from BB gnolls... I don't think i ever saw one I
could afford at the merchants. I rarely did more than 1 damage with
it... hardly with a silver per shot.

Bandages? Waste of money. 10 seconds... 1-4 hit points. Certainly not
worth a silver+ each on a newbie bankroll. You'd get hit points back
just as fast by sitting, and mana too.

Bandages became relevant later on, but were not an expense a level 1-10
should have indulged in if cash was tight.

But a sewing kit was a great investment... it doubled as a container,
and let you combine silks out in the field. When I found out you could
get large sewing kits in Halas that motivated me to make the trip.

The tattered armour was fun too, but that didn't happen for me until
after I had a few boxes.

> > I always just either focussed on one type of mob to maximize stacking,
> > or grouped and had each person loot a differnt mob type. We'd easily
> > get a few gold each between trips to town. Rusty weapons were a gold
> > all by themselves... and if we managed a cracked staff... jackpot :D 
>
> Mmmm...cracked staves and plague rat tails. :) 

I actually don't remember plague rat tails back in '99. I swear they
added them later. (either that or made them a lot more common)

> >> >> > The
> >> >> > long treks were for IMMERSION.

> Well, I guess we can just agree to disagree here. I think it added to
> the atmosphere of being far from home and certain dangers that go along
> with that.

I'm not even sure if we *really* disagree. I agree long trips did add to
immersion.

As I said... I liked making the trip. I liked the sense I had gone
*somewhere* and that I couldn't just pop back. I just didn't like not
being able to bind at the end of it. Making the same 40 minute trip 3
times in one day didn't add to anything. And I'd have welcomed trips
that were twice as long if there was a way of reliably binding at the
other end.

Quite frankly, it detracted from the immersion to have traveled that
long and that far to a distant land... where the trip back would be
another hour... only to trip over a cliff and find yourself home 2
continents away in the blink of an eye.

Trolls and Ogres in particular had a beast of time. There were
significant faction obstacles to many bind spots.

It was even hard getting a bind at home in Ogguk. One was actually
better off trying for a bind in freeport. (Ogguk like Erudin was always
a ghost town... erudin at least was home mostly to bind capable
casters... ogre shamens otoh were comparatively few and far between vs
erudite ... well...erudite anything almost.

When you consider that most players played humans and elves, races with
reduced faction issues, and 5 or even 6 bind capable classes, and most
lived in the great hubs (freeport & kelethin); its no wonder there is
such a large spread of perspective. Sure I could get into Freeport or
Kelethin to bind (well under kelethin anyway), but I couldn't bank, or
shop there. I regularly had to make a pilgramige back to Ogguk or Neriak
relied extensively on others to purchase food/water, change money for
me, and sell items. I carried gems around as lightweight liquid
currency.

I was friends with a rogue at the time and even his experience was quite
different. Home was Kelethin... he never had trouble finding a bind
there and he was welcome in places like halas, hhk, erudin, kaladim,
rivervale, etc and if a binder was available he could even get bound
safely in Ogguk or Grobb.
Anonymous
January 29, 2005 5:35:07 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"scritchy" <scritchy@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1106862789.827898.221100@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Rhogar wrote:
> > The slow boat rides were FOR IMMERSION; you felt it was real. The
> long
> > treks were for IMMERSION.
>
> Is frustration really the same as immersion? I couldn't imagine only
> having a couple hours to play, getting a /tell from a group of friends
> to meet them in a zone that is forever away. Get to the docks, barely
> miss the boat and have to wait for the next one (I don't remember the
> time, was it 15mins, 30mins?). Then spend 30mins riding the boat.
> Then run across however many zones to get to your friends. Suddenly,
> you are down to an hour or less of playing time. Yay, immersion!
>
> I could see them leaving the long way around, but not forcing it on
> people. If I want immersion in a fantasy world, I believe
> teleportation supports that. If others don't, I have nothing against
> them spending an hour to get somewhere. Please, don't keep unnecessary
> timesinks in in the name of immersion though.

I have to agree with you. Immersion is fun and challenging the first time,
after that it's just annoying and frustrating and a waste of time. The
problem is that game developers went too far in solving the problem. They
made it too easy to get somewhere instead of making it a little easier.
That's one of the reasons I like EQ2. It's easier to get places than early
EQ, but not as easy as POK made things.
Anonymous
January 29, 2005 5:49:20 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Moopy <pingu@keg.zymurgy.org> writes:
> Luclin had a different approach. At release it had no ports, but they
> gradually phased them in once everyone had gotten used to the expansion
> and bored of the travel.

Huh? I wasn't around for that, but I'm trying to understand how
anyone got to any of the Luclin content without the Nexus Spire
ports. It's not as though you can walk there from Norrath! Was
it all done via wizard/druid taxi services? (Which are ports, of
course.)

-- Don.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
-- See the a.g.e/EQ1 FAQ at http://www.iCynic.com/~don/EQ/age.faq.htm
--
-- Sukrasisx, Monk 51 on E. Marr Note: If you reply by mail,
-- Terrwini, Druid 44 on E. Marr I'll get to it sooner if you
-- Wizbeau, Wizard 35 on E. Marr remove the "hyphen n s"
-- http://www.iCynic.com/~don
Anonymous
January 29, 2005 6:05:54 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Jason Hawryluk" <jh@3gcomm.fr> writes:
> <snip>
>
> Though I am surprised (disappointed) by the reactions. You all feel that a
> novice news group user should in fact go download the rules/etiquette etc
> before responding to a post. I always thought (and I have been using various
> news group's for about ten years, starting way back when BBS's where a fade)
> that they were created for open discussion and not an excuse to flame and/or
> attack someone that wishes to participate in the community. Sure did get a
> lot of response from a "/agree". Granted it was a long post, and I should
> have cut it, but then again if you are reading this then you have time.
> Sorry to cost you all a couple of cent's.
<further stuff snipped>

Thank you for your calm, reasoned reply. The reason your earlier post
got ridiculed is because it *is* a common newbie mistake, and taking the
time to explain it slowly to each newbie is annoying, so people have
gotten out of the habit of doing so. Frankly, if you've been using
newsgroups for 10 years, I'd expect you to have seen many examples of
people who copy a long post in its entirety only to say "I agree" or
"Me too" or whatever; I've seen such posts ridiculed in many other
newsgroups as well.

As you say, though, any of us can slip occasionally and post something
we shouldn't. I can't speak for the readership at large, but for my
part I accept your apology for the ungainly post, and I encourage you
to participate in the other discussions in a.g.e. (Hopefully with more
to say than "/agree"! :-)

-- Don.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
-- See the a.g.e/EQ1 FAQ at http://www.iCynic.com/~don/EQ/age.faq.htm
--
-- Sukrasisx, Monk 51 on E. Marr Note: If you reply by mail,
-- Terrwini, Druid 44 on E. Marr I'll get to it sooner if you
-- Wizbeau, Wizard 35 on E. Marr remove the "hyphen n s"
-- http://www.iCynic.com/~don
January 29, 2005 2:32:20 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Don Woods <don-ns@iCynic.com> writes:

> Moopy <pingu@keg.zymurgy.org> writes:
> > Luclin had a different approach. At release it had no ports, but they
> > gradually phased them in once everyone had gotten used to the expansion
> > and bored of the travel.
>
> Huh? I wasn't around for that, but I'm trying to understand how
> anyone got to any of the Luclin content without the Nexus Spire
> ports. It's not as though you can walk there from Norrath! Was
> it all done via wizard/druid taxi services? (Which are ports, of
> course.)

You got it the wrong way around - the Nexus Scions came with the
expansion, but the druid and wizard ports were added months
afterwards. So people who wanted to go to Luclin had to wait for the
spires, much like the boats only without the brokenness and the slow
boat ride.
Anonymous
January 29, 2005 4:36:43 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

42 <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in
news:MPG.1c64723be17d173f9899e0@shawnews:

> In article <Xns95ECA6A0A4E5BRumbledorhotmailcom@204.127.204.17>,
> Rumbledor@hotspamsuxmail.com says...
>> 42 <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in
>> news:MPG.1c643f62ac1d40ec9899df@shawnews:
>>
>> > In article <Xns95EC60BE887A7Rumbledorhotmailcom@63.240.76.16>,
>> > Rumbledor@hotspamsuxmail.com says...
>> >
>> >> Well, I found starting with one bag to be just enough of an
>> >> improvement to facilitate practical inventory management. When you
>> >> have to run back to the bank or merchant every several minutes to
>> >> avoid having to pass over even the trivial loot you desperately
>> >> need, it doesn't allow for you to get very far at all from town or
>> >> get started with much more interesting than the rats at the city
>> >> gates.
>> >
>> > The rats & bugs & skells at the city gates were the only thing you
>> > could kill. Where were you planning on going? By level 3 or so, you
>> > could have easily had a small box or two, and maybe a spit or
>> > backpack for larger items.
>>
>> Sure, if that's all you needed to focus on purchasing. There was also
>> bandages (which weren't cheap at that level), sewing kit & patterns
>> to craft tattered armor, maybe a bow, fletching kit and components,
>> next level of spells, etc.
>
> If you couldn't afford it you didn't buy it. A bow and arrows was a
> luxury that you could live without for the first dozen levels. (and
> never miss it either, although perhaps we didn't know that at the
> time.) My first bows came from BB gnolls... I don't think i ever saw
> one I could afford at the merchants. I rarely did more than 1 damage
> with it... hardly with a silver per shot.

Pulling and maintaining your skill. 'Nuf said.

> Bandages? Waste of money. 10 seconds... 1-4 hit points. Certainly not
> worth a silver+ each on a newbie bankroll. You'd get hit points back
> just as fast by sitting, and mana too.

Waste the time now when 1-4 hp is at least something, or later when it
is just a time sink *and* robbing you of med time.

With the ability to bw while sitting now, it's not an issue, but back
then it was.

> But a sewing kit was a great investment... it doubled as a container,
> and let you combine silks out in the field. When I found out you could
> get large sewing kits in Halas that motivated me to make the trip.

Unless, being more expensive than a backpack, it was the only container
you could afford, in which case it was always full of stuff, preventing
you from crafting with it.

>> Mmmm...cracked staves and plague rat tails. :) 
>
> I actually don't remember plague rat tails back in '99. I swear they
> added them later. (either that or made them a lot more common)

You may be right.

>> >> >> > The
>> >> >> > long treks were for IMMERSION.
>
>> Well, I guess we can just agree to disagree here. I think it added to
>> the atmosphere of being far from home and certain dangers that go
>> along with that.
>
> I'm not even sure if we *really* disagree. I agree long trips did add
> to immersion.
>
> As I said... I liked making the trip. I liked the sense I had gone
> *somewhere* and that I couldn't just pop back. I just didn't like not
> being able to bind at the end of it. Making the same 40 minute trip 3
> times in one day didn't add to anything. And I'd have welcomed trips
> that were twice as long if there was a way of reliably binding at the
> other end.
>
> Quite frankly, it detracted from the immersion to have traveled that
> long and that far to a distant land... where the trip back would be
> another hour... only to trip over a cliff and find yourself home 2
> continents away in the blink of an eye.

Simple solution -> be more careful. Nothing keeps you from accidentally
selling that uber breastplate to a vendor either. ;) 

> Trolls and Ogres in particular had a beast of time. There were
> significant faction obstacles to many bind spots.
>
> It was even hard getting a bind at home in Ogguk. One was actually
> better off trying for a bind in freeport. (Ogguk like Erudin was
> always a ghost town... erudin at least was home mostly to bind capable
> casters... ogre shamens otoh were comparatively few and far between vs
> erudite ... well...erudite anything almost.

Granted, ogres had it tough, trolls not nearly so, sharing their home
city with dark elves. Still, that is something that needed attention at
the race/class level, not in game design philosophy.

Aside from that, playing one of the most hated races in all of Norrath
was *supposed* to offer challenges.

> When you consider that most players played humans and elves, races
> with reduced faction issues, and 5 or even 6 bind capable classes, and
> most lived in the great hubs (freeport & kelethin); its no wonder
> there is such a large spread of perspective. Sure I could get into
> Freeport or Kelethin to bind (well under kelethin anyway), but I
> couldn't bank, or shop there. I regularly had to make a pilgramige
> back to Ogguk or Neriak relied extensively on others to purchase
> food/water, change money for me, and sell items. I carried gems around
> as lightweight liquid currency.
>
> I was friends with a rogue at the time and even his experience was
> quite different. Home was Kelethin... he never had trouble finding a
> bind there and he was welcome in places like halas, hhk, erudin,
> kaladim, rivervale, etc and if a binder was available he could even
> get bound safely in Ogguk or Grobb.

Like I said, ogres obviously had issues. That doesn't begin to explain
or justify the complete removal of the travel aspect from the game.

--
Rumble
"Write something worth reading, or do something worth writing."
-- Benjamin Franklin
Anonymous
January 29, 2005 5:48:16 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

i enjoyed taking the boat and running through freeport as an iksar.. I
enjoyed having to sneak around in every city there was.

it all started with luclin.. and PoP topped it off. Next thing you
know.. everyone will get gate. =(
Anonymous
January 30, 2005 12:38:15 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Vladesch wrote:
> <snip>
>
> Im surprised you didnt mention flagging for POP and GOD.
> IMO what killed off eq1 more than anything. (By killing the smaller guilds)

It died before that, really. Velious began to kill them, and Luclin
finished them off. Prior to Velious, the difference between a top-end
guild raider and a casual player was maybe 20% more mana or hps. After
Velious, the gap started to widen. With Luclin, the gap changed into a
chasm... and the smaller guilds suddenly couldn't keep up with the content.

When modrods were nerfed, that was the death knell for the smaller
guilds who liked to raid... suddenly, you needed quite a few clerics to
keep up with the damage whereas before you could get away with 2-3.
January 30, 2005 1:56:39 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

In article <Xns95ED579E41E51Rumbledorhotmailcom@63.240.76.16>,
Rumbledor@hotspamsuxmail.com says...
> 42 <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in
> news:MPG.1c64723be17d173f9899e0@shawnews:
>
> > In article <Xns95ECA6A0A4E5BRumbledorhotmailcom@204.127.204.17>,
> > Rumbledor@hotspamsuxmail.com says...
> >> 42 <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in
> >> news:MPG.1c643f62ac1d40ec9899df@shawnews:
> >>
> >> > In article <Xns95EC60BE887A7Rumbledorhotmailcom@63.240.76.16>,
> >> > Rumbledor@hotspamsuxmail.com says...
> >> >
> >> >> Well, I found starting with one bag to be just enough of an
> >> >> improvement to facilitate practical inventory management. When you
> >> >> have to run back to the bank or merchant every several minutes to
> >> >> avoid having to pass over even the trivial loot you desperately
> >> >> need, it doesn't allow for you to get very far at all from town or
> >> >> get started with much more interesting than the rats at the city
> >> >> gates.
> >> >
> >> > The rats & bugs & skells at the city gates were the only thing you
> >> > could kill. Where were you planning on going? By level 3 or so, you
> >> > could have easily had a small box or two, and maybe a spit or
> >> > backpack for larger items.
> >>
> >> Sure, if that's all you needed to focus on purchasing. There was also
> >> bandages (which weren't cheap at that level), sewing kit & patterns
> >> to craft tattered armor, maybe a bow, fletching kit and components,
> >> next level of spells, etc.
> >
> > If you couldn't afford it you didn't buy it. A bow and arrows was a
> > luxury that you could live without for the first dozen levels. (and
> > never miss it either, although perhaps we didn't know that at the
> > time.) My first bows came from BB gnolls... I don't think i ever saw
> > one I could afford at the merchants. I rarely did more than 1 damage
> > with it... hardly with a silver per shot.
>
> Pulling and maintaining your skill. 'Nuf said.
>
> > Bandages? Waste of money. 10 seconds... 1-4 hit points. Certainly not
> > worth a silver+ each on a newbie bankroll. You'd get hit points back
> > just as fast by sitting, and mana too.
>
> Waste the time now when 1-4 hp is at least something, or later when it
> is just a time sink *and* robbing you of med time.
>
> With the ability to bw while sitting now, it's not an issue, but back
> then it was.
>
> > But a sewing kit was a great investment... it doubled as a container,
> > and let you combine silks out in the field. When I found out you could
> > get large sewing kits in Halas that motivated me to make the trip.
>
> Unless, being more expensive than a backpack, it was the only container
> you could afford, in which case it was always full of stuff, preventing
> you from crafting with it.
>
> >> Mmmm...cracked staves and plague rat tails. :) 
> >
> > I actually don't remember plague rat tails back in '99. I swear they
> > added them later. (either that or made them a lot more common)
>
> You may be right.
>
> >> >> >> > The
> >> >> >> > long treks were for IMMERSION.
> >
> >> Well, I guess we can just agree to disagree here. I think it added to
> >> the atmosphere of being far from home and certain dangers that go
> >> along with that.
> >
> > I'm not even sure if we *really* disagree. I agree long trips did add
> > to immersion.
> >
> > As I said... I liked making the trip. I liked the sense I had gone
> > *somewhere* and that I couldn't just pop back. I just didn't like not
> > being able to bind at the end of it. Making the same 40 minute trip 3
> > times in one day didn't add to anything. And I'd have welcomed trips
> > that were twice as long if there was a way of reliably binding at the
> > other end.
> >
> > Quite frankly, it detracted from the immersion to have traveled that
> > long and that far to a distant land... where the trip back would be
> > another hour... only to trip over a cliff and find yourself home 2
> > continents away in the blink of an eye.
>
> Simple solution -> be more careful. Nothing keeps you from accidentally
> selling that uber breastplate to a vendor either. ;) 

Actually I aug things I don't want to accidently sell. ;) 
"Be more careful" is all well and fine, but accidents do happen...
whether it was hitting combine on your sewing kit-cum-backpack and
*destroying* everything in it, tripping off a cliff, standing where a
hillgiant is about to spawn. The punishment for an accident should be
commesurate with the avoidability and severity of misjudgement.

Getting sent 10 zones backwards, 45 minutes of travel, without your
stuff and docked the better part of a yellow of xp for getting too close
to a hill giants spawn point is too high a penalty.


Raiders fighting gods suffer less when they die. (96% xp rezzes, 0
return travel time,... worst case they fail to take the god out...)


> > Trolls and Ogres in particular had a beast of time. There were
> > significant faction obstacles to many bind spots.
> >
> > It was even hard getting a bind at home in Ogguk. One was actually
> > better off trying for a bind in freeport. (Ogguk like Erudin was
> > always a ghost town... erudin at least was home mostly to bind capable
> > casters... ogre shamens otoh were comparatively few and far between vs
> > erudite ... well...erudite anything almost.
>
> Granted, ogres had it tough, trolls not nearly so, sharing their home
> city with dark elves. Still, that is something that needed attention at
> the race/class level, not in game design philosophy.

Uh... trolls home city used to be Grobb (now Gukta) in Innothule Swamp.
But both trolls and ogres have always been reasonably welcome in Neriak.

> Aside from that, playing one of the most hated races in all of Norrath
> was *supposed* to offer challenges.

Extra downtime isn't a challenge. If you upped the difficulty level in
Doom III and the only difference was that load times were tripled...
well feeling a little ripped off would be an understatement :) 


>
> Like I said, ogres obviously had issues. That doesn't begin to explain
> or justify the complete removal of the travel aspect from the game.

Sometimes I wonder if you are even reading what I'm writing. I like
travel. I am not arguing to remove it from the game.

For me, the biggest flaw with slow travel is the deathport. If I die I
should respawn in a safe spot not more than a zone away, not halfway
around the world.

If they did that I'd be happy to remove *all* fast travel from the game.

(Of course, if that were to happen, other things would have to change
too... like more places to sell/bank, some way of gathering for raids,
etc...)
Anonymous
January 30, 2005 3:12:47 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 16:20:35 GMT in
<MPG.1c62b4aef74b23cf989689@news.sf.sbcglobal.net>, Rhogar
<nospam@nospam.com> graced the world with this thought:

>That immersion is forever gone.

Yeah, and now I don't have to sit mindlessly for half a goddamn hour
doing nothing in order to play the game.
You're confusing immersion wiht banality.
Anonymous
January 30, 2005 3:45:43 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Gary Beldon wrote:
> On 27 Jan 2005 20:05:49 GMT, Graeme Faelban wrote:
>
>
>>"Jason Hawryluk" <jh@3gcomm.fr> wrote in news:41f93ca7$0$6595$8fcfb975
>>@news.wanadoo.fr:
>>
>>>/agree
>>
>>Thank you oh so very much for topposting and quoting the entire article...
>
>
> I think Wanadoo must be the French equivalent of AOL...
>

You might be happy to know that AOL/CS2000/Walmart
Connect/WhateverElseTheyOwn are shutting down their usenet servers in
the next week or two. :p 
Anonymous
January 31, 2005 8:48:54 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

42 <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in
news:MPG.1c65b483d41c022c9899e2@shawnews:

> In article <Xns95ED579E41E51Rumbledorhotmailcom@63.240.76.16>,
> Rumbledor@hotspamsuxmail.com says...
>> 42 <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in
>> news:MPG.1c64723be17d173f9899e0@shawnews:
>>
>> > In article <Xns95ECA6A0A4E5BRumbledorhotmailcom@204.127.204.17>,
>> > Rumbledor@hotspamsuxmail.com says...
>> >> 42 <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in
>> >> news:MPG.1c643f62ac1d40ec9899df@shawnews:
>> >>
>> >> > In article <Xns95EC60BE887A7Rumbledorhotmailcom@63.240.76.16>,
>> >> > Rumbledor@hotspamsuxmail.com says...
>> >> >
>> >> >> Well, I found starting with one bag to be just enough of an
>> >> >> improvement to facilitate practical inventory management. When
>> >> >> you have to run back to the bank or merchant every several
>> >> >> minutes to avoid having to pass over even the trivial loot you
>> >> >> desperately need, it doesn't allow for you to get very far at
>> >> >> all from town or get started with much more interesting than
>> >> >> the rats at the city gates.
>> >> >
>> >> > The rats & bugs & skells at the city gates were the only thing
>> >> > you could kill. Where were you planning on going? By level 3 or
>> >> > so, you could have easily had a small box or two, and maybe a
>> >> > spit or backpack for larger items.
>> >>
>> >> Sure, if that's all you needed to focus on purchasing. There was
>> >> also bandages (which weren't cheap at that level), sewing kit &
>> >> patterns to craft tattered armor, maybe a bow, fletching kit and
>> >> components, next level of spells, etc.
>> >
>> > If you couldn't afford it you didn't buy it. A bow and arrows was a
>> > luxury that you could live without for the first dozen levels. (and
>> > never miss it either, although perhaps we didn't know that at the
>> > time.) My first bows came from BB gnolls... I don't think i ever
>> > saw one I could afford at the merchants. I rarely did more than 1
>> > damage with it... hardly with a silver per shot.
>>
>> Pulling and maintaining your skill. 'Nuf said.
>>
>> > Bandages? Waste of money. 10 seconds... 1-4 hit points. Certainly
>> > not worth a silver+ each on a newbie bankroll. You'd get hit points
>> > back just as fast by sitting, and mana too.
>>
>> Waste the time now when 1-4 hp is at least something, or later when
>> it is just a time sink *and* robbing you of med time.
>>
>> With the ability to bw while sitting now, it's not an issue, but back
>> then it was.
>>
>> > But a sewing kit was a great investment... it doubled as a
>> > container, and let you combine silks out in the field. When I found
>> > out you could get large sewing kits in Halas that motivated me to
>> > make the trip.
>>
>> Unless, being more expensive than a backpack, it was the only
>> container you could afford, in which case it was always full of
>> stuff, preventing you from crafting with it.
>>
>> >> Mmmm...cracked staves and plague rat tails. :) 
>> >
>> > I actually don't remember plague rat tails back in '99. I swear
>> > they added them later. (either that or made them a lot more common)
>>
>> You may be right.
>>
>> >> >> >> > The
>> >> >> >> > long treks were for IMMERSION.
>> >
>> >> Well, I guess we can just agree to disagree here. I think it added
>> >> to the atmosphere of being far from home and certain dangers that
>> >> go along with that.
>> >
>> > I'm not even sure if we *really* disagree. I agree long trips did
>> > add to immersion.
>> >
>> > As I said... I liked making the trip. I liked the sense I had gone
>> > *somewhere* and that I couldn't just pop back. I just didn't like
>> > not being able to bind at the end of it. Making the same 40 minute
>> > trip 3 times in one day didn't add to anything. And I'd have
>> > welcomed trips that were twice as long if there was a way of
>> > reliably binding at the other end.
>> >
>> > Quite frankly, it detracted from the immersion to have traveled
>> > that long and that far to a distant land... where the trip back
>> > would be another hour... only to trip over a cliff and find
>> > yourself home 2 continents away in the blink of an eye.
>>
>> Simple solution -> be more careful. Nothing keeps you from
>> accidentally selling that uber breastplate to a vendor either. ;) 
>
> Actually I aug things I don't want to accidently sell. ;) 
> "Be more careful" is all well and fine, but accidents do happen...
> whether it was hitting combine on your sewing kit-cum-backpack and
> *destroying* everything in it, tripping off a cliff, standing where a
> hillgiant is about to spawn. The punishment for an accident should be
> commesurate with the avoidability and severity of misjudgement.

Pfft. I could cross the center line on a highway by merely not paying
enough attention, and the punishment for that is quite severe. I don't
think your philosophy in this regard is grounded.

> Getting sent 10 zones backwards, 45 minutes of travel, without your
> stuff and docked the better part of a yellow of xp for getting too
> close to a hill giants spawn point is too high a penalty.

Except for the fact that when the punishment is more severe, you'll tend
to take more steps to avoid the mishap. You have control.

> Raiders fighting gods suffer less when they die. (96% xp rezzes, 0
> return travel time,... worst case they fail to take the god out...)

Yeah, I've never quite figured that one out. I do believe the higher the
reward the higher the risk.

>> > Trolls and Ogres in particular had a beast of time. There were
>> > significant faction obstacles to many bind spots.
>> >
>> > It was even hard getting a bind at home in Ogguk. One was actually
>> > better off trying for a bind in freeport. (Ogguk like Erudin was
>> > always a ghost town... erudin at least was home mostly to bind
>> > capable casters... ogre shamens otoh were comparatively few and far
>> > between vs erudite ... well...erudite anything almost.
>>
>> Granted, ogres had it tough, trolls not nearly so, sharing their home
>> city with dark elves. Still, that is something that needed attention
>> at the race/class level, not in game design philosophy.
>
> Uh... trolls home city used to be Grobb (now Gukta) in Innothule
> Swamp. But both trolls and ogres have always been reasonably welcome
> in Neriak.

Doh. You're right. I wasn't thinking. Darned game changes have gone to
my brain.

>> Aside from that, playing one of the most hated races in all of
>> Norrath was *supposed* to offer challenges.
>
> Extra downtime isn't a challenge.

No, but avoiding it *is*.

> If you upped the difficulty level in
> Doom III and the only difference was that load times were tripled...
> well feeling a little ripped off would be an understatement :) 

Not a fair comparison.

>> Like I said, ogres obviously had issues. That doesn't begin to
>> explain or justify the complete removal of the travel aspect from the
>> game.
>
> Sometimes I wonder if you are even reading what I'm writing. I like
> travel. I am not arguing to remove it from the game.

I've not seen any alternative to the PoK books come from you, so it was
a safe enough assumption. Perhaps I'm not hearing your point in full.

> For me, the biggest flaw with slow travel is the deathport. If I die I
> should respawn in a safe spot not more than a zone away, not halfway
> around the world.
>
> If they did that I'd be happy to remove *all* fast travel from the
> game.

That makes some sense.

> (Of course, if that were to happen, other things would have to change
> too... like more places to sell/bank, some way of gathering for raids,
> etc...)

Perhaps scattered outposts where prices aren't nearly as good as a more
familiar locale.

--
Rumble
"Write something worth reading, or do something worth writing."
-- Benjamin Franklin
Anonymous
January 31, 2005 7:13:39 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Moopy <pingu@keg.zymurgy.org> wrote in
news:slrncvkoeg.25kc.pingu@keg.zymurgy.org:

> On 2005-01-28, Graeme Faelban <RichardRapier@netscape.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Yep. But thats what ports are for. Interestingly, in Velious they had
>>> 'portal teeth' that required you to visit a ring once by foot to
>>> collect the tooth before you could be ported there. I have no idea
why
>>> they removed that ;/
>>
>> It made it too difficult for raids to gather in those far away
places...
>>
>
> Hhahahaha because, yeah, TOV was simple to get to after they removed
> the teeth ;) 
>
> Ahh, happy days. Watching the guild trying to get across Sirens Grotto
> and Eastern Wastes. I loved that stuff ;) 
>

Well, yes, ToV was simple to get to unless you are a total idiot... I
have made the run, without any porter the whole way in the past (to WW,
need velium hounds). It's really not difficult at all. For raids it's
even simpler, Druid/Wizards get full groups, succor across SG, people
invis/levi, and run to ToV. A number of folks, like me, just run across
SG rather than wait on a succor, as we know the way, and it's really not
a hard run to make, never once have I died doing it. If the dragon is up
at the ToV entrance, then run fast, and click in. :b (OK, actually, set
up a CoTH group with a nonKoS mage at the ToV zone in, and just CoTH
people from SG zone line to ToV zone in. I've done that a few times too,
again, never died doing it (including several runs past the dragon while
I was KoS). This was all done at levels from the high 50s (pre PoP) to
the mid 60s.

Seriously though, so long as people listened, it was really quite trivial
to do the run.

Port in to Cobalt Scar, get SoE/Invis, run to SG, Succor/Evac across,
zone out, CoTH to ToV, zone in. I admit, we have a few folks in the
guild who somehow managed to mess even that simple process up.

--
On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons

On Steamfont in <Insanity Plea>
Graeme, 22 Dwarven Mystic, 20 Sage
Aviv, 12 Gnome Braeler, 14 Craftsman
Anonymous
January 31, 2005 7:17:48 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Jason Hawryluk" <jh@3gcomm.fr> wrote in
news:41fa9691$0$10465$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr:

> Top posting is both good and bad, even though perceived as mostly bad.
>

Topposting in a newsgroup that primarily bottomposts is bad. In other
newsgroups, where that is the norm, it is of course bad to bottompost...

--
On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons

On Steamfont in <Insanity Plea>
Graeme, 22 Dwarven Mystic, 20 Sage
Aviv, 12 Gnome Braeler, 14 Craftsman
Anonymous
January 31, 2005 7:26:10 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Rumbledor <Rumbledor@hotspamsuxmail.com> wrote in
news:Xns95ED579E41E51Rumbledorhotmailcom@63.240.76.16:

> 42 <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in
> news:MPG.1c64723be17d173f9899e0@shawnews:
>
>> In article <Xns95ECA6A0A4E5BRumbledorhotmailcom@204.127.204.17>,
>> Rumbledor@hotspamsuxmail.com says...
>>>
>>> Sure, if that's all you needed to focus on purchasing. There was also
>>> bandages (which weren't cheap at that level), sewing kit & patterns
>>> to craft tattered armor, maybe a bow, fletching kit and components,
>>> next level of spells, etc.
>>
>> If you couldn't afford it you didn't buy it. A bow and arrows was a
>> luxury that you could live without for the first dozen levels. (and
>> never miss it either, although perhaps we didn't know that at the
>> time.) My first bows came from BB gnolls... I don't think i ever saw
>> one I could afford at the merchants. I rarely did more than 1 damage
>> with it... hardly with a silver per shot.
>
> Pulling and maintaining your skill. 'Nuf said.

My warrior got his first bow and a supply of arrows off goblins he was
killing.

>
>> Bandages? Waste of money. 10 seconds... 1-4 hit points. Certainly not
>> worth a silver+ each on a newbie bankroll. You'd get hit points back
>> just as fast by sitting, and mana too.
>
> Waste the time now when 1-4 hp is at least something, or later when it
> is just a time sink *and* robbing you of med time.
>
> With the ability to bw while sitting now, it's not an issue, but back
> then it was.

I let BW languish at early levels due to the cost of the bandages I have
to admit. It was a pain later on, but I did raise it. (Not on my shaman,
that was a total waste).

<snip>
> Granted, ogres had it tough, trolls not nearly so, sharing their home
> city with dark elves. Still, that is something that needed attention at
> the race/class level, not in game design philosophy.

Trolls had their own city once...

--
On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons

On Steamfont in <Insanity Plea>
Graeme, 22 Dwarven Mystic, 20 Sage
Aviv, 12 Gnome Braeler, 14 Craftsman
Anonymous
January 31, 2005 7:26:42 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Paleghost" <avicars@gmail.com> wrote in news:1107038896.062270.143220
@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:

> i enjoyed taking the boat and running through freeport as an iksar.. I
> enjoyed having to sneak around in every city there was.
>
> it all started with luclin.. and PoP topped it off. Next thing you
> know.. everyone will get gate. =(
>

Oh, wait, they did...

--
On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons

On Steamfont in <Insanity Plea>
Graeme, 22 Dwarven Mystic, 20 Sage
Aviv, 12 Gnome Braeler, 14 Craftsman
Anonymous
January 31, 2005 7:29:03 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

42 <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in news:MPG.1c65b483d41c022c9899e2@shawnews:

> In article <Xns95ED579E41E51Rumbledorhotmailcom@63.240.76.16>,
> Rumbledor@hotspamsuxmail.com says...
>
>>
>> Like I said, ogres obviously had issues. That doesn't begin to explain
>> or justify the complete removal of the travel aspect from the game.
>
> Sometimes I wonder if you are even reading what I'm writing. I like
> travel. I am not arguing to remove it from the game.
>
> For me, the biggest flaw with slow travel is the deathport. If I die I
> should respawn in a safe spot not more than a zone away, not halfway
> around the world.
>
> If they did that I'd be happy to remove *all* fast travel from the
game.
>
> (Of course, if that were to happen, other things would have to change
> too... like more places to sell/bank, some way of gathering for raids,
> etc...)
>

Heh, EQ2. That is exactly what they did for deaths (you get to pick a
spot to pop in at when you die, unless you are getting a rez). They do
however have some of the fast travel options in game, and no boats, in
general, for transport.

--
On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons

On Steamfont in <Insanity Plea>
Graeme, 22 Dwarven Mystic, 20 Sage
Aviv, 12 Gnome Braeler, 14 Craftsman
Anonymous
January 31, 2005 7:40:31 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

murdocj <murdocj@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:lbcsv0dg08nrm756b9o4v738lj503kcl89@4ax.com:

<snip>
> The game is more social because there are not huge penalties for
> failure. There are still people that you don't want to play with
> because of their antics, but there isn't a huge penalty for making the
> wrong choice. I can sign on quickly, play for an hour, have some fun,
> and sign off again. In EQ, it might take me an hour just to get set
> up with a group and start playing. It had gotten to the point in EQ
> where I really felt like I had to have a block of 3 hours to "play" in
> order to sign on...
>

Fortunately, playing a shaman, I always had, and still have, the
alternative of just soloing when I know I don't have enough time to group.
Admittedly, now, when I have just an hour or so to play, I choose EQ2
instead of EQ, as it is much friendlier to a casual player than EQ is.

--
On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons

On Steamfont in <Insanity Plea>
Graeme, 22 Dwarven Mystic, 20 Sage
Aviv, 12 Gnome Braeler, 14 Craftsman
Anonymous
January 31, 2005 7:42:36 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Don Woods <don-ns@iCynic.com> wrote in news:7w651h54r4.fsf@ca.icynic.com:

> Moopy <pingu@keg.zymurgy.org> writes:
>> Luclin had a different approach. At release it had no ports, but they
>> gradually phased them in once everyone had gotten used to the expansion
>> and bored of the travel.
>
> Huh? I wasn't around for that, but I'm trying to understand how
> anyone got to any of the Luclin content without the Nexus Spire
> ports. It's not as though you can walk there from Norrath! Was
> it all done via wizard/druid taxi services? (Which are ports, of
> course.)
>

It had Nexus, but not the other port locations on Luclin.

--
On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons

On Steamfont in <Insanity Plea>
Graeme, 22 Dwarven Mystic, 20 Sage
Aviv, 12 Gnome Braeler, 14 Craftsman
Anonymous
January 31, 2005 9:28:08 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Graeme Faelban <RichardRapier@netscape.net> wrote in
news:Xns95EF5FFC79DAArichardrapiernetscap@130.133.1.4:

>> Granted, ogres had it tough, trolls not nearly so, sharing their home
>> city with dark elves. Still, that is something that needed attention at
>> the race/class level, not in game design philosophy.
>
> Trolls had their own city once...

Aye. Already addressed that particular brain fart. :p 

--
Rumble
"Write something worth reading, or do something worth writing."
-- Benjamin Franklin
Anonymous
January 31, 2005 10:57:39 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Rumbledor" <Rumbledor@hotspamsuxmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95EFC97E88C9ARumbledorhotmailcom@216.148.227.77...
>
> It's interesting that those who find such fault with things like this are
> all but unable to enjoy anything that doesn't move them farther down the xp
> track.

Generalize much?


--
Davian - Wood Elf Warrior on Guk
Talynne - Half Elf Rogue on Guk
Dearic - Dwarven Shaman on Guk
Anonymous
January 31, 2005 11:54:18 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Graeme Faelban" <RichardRapier@netscape.net> a écrit dans le message de
news:Xns95EF5E914A9EArichardrapiernetscap@130.133.1.4...
> "Jason Hawryluk" <jh@3gcomm.fr> wrote in
> news:41fa9691$0$10465$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr:
>
> > Top posting is both good and bad, even though perceived as mostly bad.
> >
>
> Topposting in a newsgroup that primarily bottomposts is bad. In other
> newsgroups, where that is the norm, it is of course bad to bottompost...
>

My point exactly...
Anonymous
February 1, 2005 5:24:11 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Graeme Faelban <RichardRapier@netscape.net> writes:
> > Next thing you know.. everyone will get gate. =(
>
> Oh, wait, they did...

Yeah? Tell that to my level 51 monk. (As I understand it, the
everyman gate ability is only available to high-level characters,
or costs a lot of AA points, or both.)

-- Don.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
-- See the a.g.e/EQ1 FAQ at http://www.iCynic.com/~don/EQ/age.faq.htm
--
-- Sukrasisx, Monk 51 on E. Marr Note: If you reply by mail,
-- Terrwini, Druid 44 on E. Marr I'll get to it sooner if you
-- Wizbeau, Wizard 35 on E. Marr remove the "hyphen n s"
-- http://www.iCynic.com/~don
Anonymous
February 1, 2005 7:17:26 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Davian" <davian@nospammindspring.com> wrote in
news:au2dnYabhtBmTmPcRVn-pA@adelphia.com:

>
>
>
> "Rumbledor" <Rumbledor@hotspamsuxmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns95EFC97E88C9ARumbledorhotmailcom@216.148.227.77...
>>
>> It's interesting that those who find such fault with things like this
>> are all but unable to enjoy anything that doesn't move them farther
>> down the xp track.
>
> Generalize much?

Excuse me. *Many* of those. Feel better?

--
Rumble
"Write something worth reading, or do something worth writing."
-- Benjamin Franklin
Anonymous
February 1, 2005 6:17:57 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Don Woods <don-ns@iCynic.com> wrote in news:7wy8e9uiet.fsf@ca.icynic.com:

> Graeme Faelban <RichardRapier@netscape.net> writes:
>> > Next thing you know.. everyone will get gate. =(
>>
>> Oh, wait, they did...
>
> Yeah? Tell that to my level 51 monk. (As I understand it, the
> everyman gate ability is only available to high-level characters,
> or costs a lot of AA points, or both.)
>

Level 70, not sure off hand about the cost. Nobody specified level, aside
from which, everyone does have gate available to them if they really want
it. I've sold quite a few gate potions.

--
On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons

On Steamfont in <Insanity Plea>
Graeme, 22 Dwarven Mystic, 20 Sage
Aviv, 12 Gnome Brawler, 14 Craftsman
Anonymous
February 1, 2005 9:38:01 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Rumbledor" <Rumbledor@hotspamsuxmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95EFECECFD1BERumbledorhotmailcom@216.148.227.77...
> "Davian" <davian@nospammindspring.com> wrote in
> news:au2dnYabhtBmTmPcRVn-pA@adelphia.com:
>

> > "Rumbledor" <Rumbledor@hotspamsuxmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:Xns95EFC97E88C9ARumbledorhotmailcom@216.148.227.77...
> >>
> >> It's interesting that those who find such fault with things like this
> >> are all but unable to enjoy anything that doesn't move them farther
> >> down the xp track.
> >
> > Generalize much?
>
> Excuse me. *Many* of those. Feel better?
>

Not particularly. Whether its everyone or almost everyone, declaring
unilaterally that those who disagree with you on this are exp obsessed, non rp
powergamers (or whatever you're calling them this week) may be a nice way to
declare victory in your argument, but it doesn't really bolster your point.

In other words, unless you have some way to back up what you're saying, I
officially declare you to be talking out of your ass.


--
Davian - Wood Elf Warrior on Guk
Talynne - Half Elf Rogue on Guk
Dearic - Dwarven Shaman on Guk
Anonymous
February 1, 2005 11:02:38 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Graeme Faelban" <RichardRapier@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:Xns95F0546C5AFF1richardrapiernetscap@130.133.1.4...
> Don Woods <don-ns@iCynic.com> wrote in news:7wy8e9uiet.fsf@ca.icynic.com:
>
> > Graeme Faelban <RichardRapier@netscape.net> writes:
> >> > Next thing you know.. everyone will get gate. =(
> >>
> >> Oh, wait, they did...
> >
> > Yeah? Tell that to my level 51 monk. (As I understand it, the
> > everyman gate ability is only available to high-level characters,
> > or costs a lot of AA points, or both.)
> >
>
> Level 70, not sure off hand about the cost. Nobody specified level, aside
> from which, everyone does have gate available to them if they really want
> it. I've sold quite a few gate potions.
>

67 and 8 AA's, I believe.


--
Davian - Wood Elf Warrior on Guk
Talynne - Half Elf Rogue on Guk

Davian - Night Elf Rogue on Bloodhoof
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