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what can eq2 learn from WoW and vice versa?

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Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
January 28, 2005 8:47:26 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

I haven't seen WOW yet, so i'll rely on the experience of the readers out
there for more information, but here is my impression.


Wow pluses.

Wow has a good quest sharing system.
Soling better than eq2 although eq2 might be closing the gap with recent
changes.
Wow minuses
No tradeskilling?
inferior graphics


EQ2

Voices add a lot of flavour and can crack me up. Also, i love that kerran
female voice. ;-)

Terrific visually although the graphics are if anything a little too
advanced for the current generation of video cards.

Lore is deep and continuity with eq1 is as far as i know, unique. Someone
once said "why roleplay in eq1 when you know halas (for example is going to
be destroyed". My answer is if you are roleplaying a roman soldier, you
ignore the fact that rome will fall and people will stereotype your race as
pizza producing cowards, in spite of a history of bloody conquest and
empire. You just try to be the best roman soldier you can be.

Tradeskilling better than eq1 but cumbersome, repitious, and strangely
lethal if you use a forge. I studied chemistry and the chem building had a
fire about once a year. Quite a few of my lecturers had facial scars from
where assorted items had exploded, and i almost had the fun of having a vial
of ether explode when a fellow student put a bunsen burner under her steam
distill only apparatus. I seriously doubt blacksmithing would be
substantially more dangerous than alchemy.


eq2 negatives

event horizons. You can be walking in a particular direction and suddenly
find you can't walk back. Black holes work that way. Reality might be nasty
with traps like that, but a game doesn't have to be. Why did they build them
into eq2? Did some dev belong to a secret cult of player haters? Sometimes
it reminds me of the way people play the sims, and get the characters to go
into the swimming pool. then remove the ladder, so they can't get out. EQ1
did that a few times (POG faction could never be improved, for example) but
there's a lot of it in eq2. I hope they fix the gnoll language quest.

tradeskilling can be terribly frustrating.

Some quests like the collection quests for butterflies seem to be impossible
for the level they are designed for. I've taken to buying up spotted yellows
and reselling them for a profit. Meanwhilst, other ones sell for a few
copper. (bought 2 for 50 sp, sold 1 gp and tonight others are selling for 3
gp) Why not make each butterfly appear in the same zone, with the same
probability? What's the advantage in denying people access to a level
appropriate collectable unless they are twinking an alt?


If anyone knows any wow negatives please add them as my ignorance of the
game may make this post unduly weighted against eq2, whears i suspect the
problems are endemic to MMOGS.


Ralph Nebbish,

spam spam spam spam spam,

Najena.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
January 28, 2005 8:47:27 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Shadow" <kitchen@fis.org.nz> wrote in message
news:o UuKd.138793$K7.82611@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>I haven't seen WOW yet, so i'll rely on the experience of the readers out
> there for more information, but here is my impression.
>
>
> Wow pluses.
>
> Wow has a good quest sharing system.
> Soling better than eq2 although eq2 might be closing the gap with recent
> changes.
> Wow minuses
> No tradeskilling?
> inferior graphics

I would argue the inferior graphics part. The graphics are actually quite
nice and rather beautiful, but the best part is, the server I'm on has no
lag whatsoever...can run around all I want, looking at the beauty of the
world, and don't have the huge lag spikes I was experiencing in EQ2 from
those 'superior' graphics. :)  I also like the fact that character creation
is better than EQ2. In EQ2, I had expected this huge range of
customizability, but instead, from what I've seen, you get a face that looks
like everybody else's face, except you can make the nose, or the mouth, or
the chin longer or broader...but you still look like everyone else of that
race. With WoW, you can actually select between several facial features that
look radically different from one another. Granted, I just started playing
WoW last night, but have a 4th level night elf druid, a 3rd level human
pally, and a 2nd level undead warlock so far, and am amazed at the
playability of the game and the beauty of the world around my characters.

--
############################
Firian
Dark Elf Necromancer of the 23rd Circle, FV
Berdache
Troll Shaman of the 22nd Stone, FV
(WoW characters will be added when I finalize some...currently playing
'test' characters)
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
January 28, 2005 10:38:58 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Shadow" <kitchen@fis.org.nz> wrote in message
news:o UuKd.138793$K7.82611@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

>I haven't seen WOW yet, so i'll rely on the experience of the readers out
> there for more information, but here is my impression.

I now play both games so I feel like I have a better perspective than ever
for apprecating the differences. I've a great deal more experience with EQ2
because of several months in beta and continous play since release, as well
as a significant commitment there. But my wife and I have logged enough
hours to get two level 20's in WoW in our spare time and enough of a picture
is emerging now to clarify a lot of the questions I had based on my limited
experience with the WoW beta.

> Wow pluses.
>
> Wow has a good quest sharing system.

This is a very nice feature. I spend a lot of time running around doing
quests and I'm not always with my wife. When she logs in to join me, I can
group her up, and simply share with her the same quests I'm working on,
without the need for her to go find the NPCs. Wish EQ2 had this (and don't
be surprised if it gets it).

> Soling better than eq2 although eq2 might be closing the gap with recent
> changes.

Not even close here. WoW wins, hands down. My wife plays a 20 Rogue and I
play a 20 Paladin and either one of us can solo at any time virtually
anywhere we have quests and have a spectacular time doing it. As a duo we're
even better, and this is how we primarily play. At least half the 50 quests
in my EQ2 journal I cannot complete without a group. It's true that they've
supposedly added more solo content and more experience for small groups, but
I've yet to experience it and in any case, I have a hard time imagining that
it will rise to the level of soloability in WoW. You really don't need other
players around to enjoy most of WoW, although I'm told that this will change
once I start doing instances and fighting Elites. But I also understand this
to be a fairly small and optional portion of the overall game.

> Wow minuses
> No tradeskilling?

No, they have significant crafting. It's along the lines of the classic
crafting model, where you grind on recipes to raise your skill to make
higher quality items etc, and there's no risk or lethality, just big money
and time sinks. Reasonably fun, but ultimately not as satisfying for me
since there's no real craftsmanship involved. If you have the time and the
money, you'll eventually make the same items that anyone else can make given
the same time and money. Nothing to distinguish your items from anyone
else's other than the rarity of recipes that you've been able to acquire
(admittedly, I've no experience with this so it might be more of a
distinction than I'm giving credit for).

> inferior graphics

No, I rate the WoW graphics slightly superior. It's the difference between a
really good movie set blessed with great art direction and living in
Fantasyland or Toontown in Disneyland. WoW's world is gorgeous and inspiring
and I love exploring it, even if it's not nearly as interactive as EQ2's.
EQ2 is more realistic and familiar and therefore somewhat more mundane. More
realism doesn't translate to more fun or more engaging. But on an
interactivity scale, EQ2 does better. When I run into a new location in EQ2
the first thing I do is scan for interactive objects that can provide
quests. I've given up doing that in WoW since the most interactive thing I
usually find is a chair. It's disappointing to see the beautiful artwork of
WoW wind up mostly just scenery, but there's something about prancing around
in the snow under the moonlight in Dun Morogh that isn't quite captured
anywhere in EQ2. One is more satisfying, but I constantly reach for the
other, too. There's a lot to be said for the eye candy of WoW, it's a
beautiful world and more so than EQ2's gritty, realistic look.

I really don't get your point about character customization, I'm astonished
that you even raise this issue. Have you tried altering a Tauren or Dwarf to
make them look unique in WoW? Forget it. The character models of EQ2 are
vastly more diverse and unique. Not CoH level, but way out front of WoW.

> EQ2
>
> Voices add a lot of flavour and can crack me up. Also, i love that kerran
> female voice. ;-)

Yeah, I love this feature of EQ2 and think it adds greatly to the flavor of
the game. I love to hate Bryan Shorecling ("You talk to strangers? What's
the purpose of that?") and if that little kid asks me one more time if I've
ever seen a gnoll I may punch him in the face, but I'm glad he's there.

> Lore is deep and continuity with eq1 is as far as i know, unique.

Here EQ2 wins easily with a rich and complete body of lore to fall back on.
The Heritage quests bring this to life but the whole quest system overflows
with it, and in the end the quests of EverQuest are far more satisfying than
anything I've experienced in WoW. At least, for this player. The larger
issue here imo that is related to this point is that the questing of
EverQuest has far more depth. If you read my account of the Nektropos Castle
event, you have one small glimpse of what it means to do a quest in
EverQuest2. In WoW, I'm disappointed that every quest I've done has been in
the nature of "Kill 0/10 Ratfink Poachers" or "find the Googlesnapp
Tinkerbobber 0/1".

WoW's quests don't give me a very strong sense of purpose of story
continuity. Sure, the Defias brotherhood needs to be spanked so I see how
the 5 or 6 linked quests in that story line up, but ultimlately all of them
boil down to "Go to location X and kill Y number of them". Contrast this to
the warding of Sigils in Firemyst, the spawning and destruction of Scions in
Stormhold, or any of the Heritage quests that are epic in scope and
demanding in execution (five hours in Nektropos Castle), and EQ2's quests
are just much more deep and satisfying as standalone encounters of unique
interest, compared to the grind I feel in WoW's quests. Different attention
spans and commitment levels required for each, and certainly EQ2's require
grouping more often than not.

On a purely housekeeping point, the overall quest management in EQ2 is
superior but the loot and rewards management offered by WoW has no equal in
EQ2. There's a lot more information in the EQ2 quest journal that can
usually lead a careful reader to figure out whatever's missing. And the
categorization of quests is far more interesting in EQ2 (Heritage, Hallmark,
Collection, Prestige, Lore and Legend, Access, etc, compared to WoW's
categorization by city). But although it's true that WoW's quest journal is
less descriptive and less helpful as a standalone guide to the quest, WoW is
far more informative of what my reward will be. You could argue that this
actually provides a better sense of purpose and a cause to fight, but I
suppose how you feel about this will depend on what your motivation is. If
you're primarily after the loot or gear, WoW is going to be more satisfying
because you can choose to do only those quests that will yield what you want
and skip all the rest. On the other hand, if the story and adventure are
what drives you, and you're really interested in finding out what the
daughters of Everling are hiding in their diaries, or what evil Varsoon is
harboring in the Ruins, you'll probably have a lot more fun doing EQ2 quests
irrespective of the rewards.

> Tradeskilling better than eq1 but cumbersome, repitious, and strangely
> lethal if you use a forge.

This one has been argued to death. I remain impressed with the bold and
risky departure that SOE took with EQ2 tradeskilling. It's not for everyone,
but it's a real crafting system that raises crafting to a level of
significance finally on a par with adventuring. You can indeed watch TV or
chat casually while you're crafting in WoW, if that's what you want to do.

> eq2 negatives

> event horizons.

Yeah, I forgot how annoying zoning was until I started going back and forth
into both worlds. There is very little zoning in WoW, almost none. In EQ2
you're doing it all the time and although the zones are larger for the most
part than they were in EQ1, it's still pretty much the same model except
that now you have to manage instance numbers too ("everyone meet in Antonica
3").

> Some quests like the collection quests for butterflies seem to be
> impossible
> for the level they are designed for.

I don't mind this. I love having a quest journal full of ambitious goals
waiting for me to find the wherewithall to tackle them.

> Why not make each butterfly appear in the same zone, with the same
> probability?

That would take away a large part of the appeal of collection quests imo. I
don't see these as tasks that I can go knock off in one session, they are
long term objectives, much like collecting antiques or stamps. You're not
going to find your entire collection at one shop or garage sale, you're
going to build it over time looking into the far reaches of all possible
locations and the excitement of finding that one rare missing piece in the
most unlikely spot is a large part of what what makes these quests appealing
and unique.

There are many, many, more points of comparison of these two games and I'm
still making my way through them both. My wife and I are 35/30 in EQ2 and
20/20 in WoW and we have enough fun in both that it's a real toss up which
to play on any given night. Fortunately, the structure of EQ2 lends itself
to organized events that we can schedule with the guild on a regular and
ongoing basis, and the free-form soloing of WoW allows us to pop in at any
time to make progress either together or individually. So the reality is,
we're having a great time playing both and our path is clear. I forsee great
and epic adventure ahead in EQ2 with my guild and the rich lore and deep
questing offered there. Also, the great groups we've forged there will get
us through the most exciting content the game offers. With WoW, I expect
we'll have a good time making our way up the levels much the same way that
we kept playing Diablo. Blizzard still knows how to make a fun game.

I love a good Bordeaux and will take the time to prepare it and savor it on
those occasions when I can enjoy it. But there's still nothing that beats a
nice cold Pepsi in a can any random time that I feel like having one.

--
Redbeard
<Veritas>
Dwarven Mystic and Alchemist
Loyal Citizen of the Antonia Bayle
Current resident of the Willow Wood, City of Qeynos
http://veritas.everquest2guilds.com

Descendant of the Elder Winterfury Thunderwolf
<Resolution, Retired>
Barbarian Prophet of The Tribunal
Retired Citizen of Firiona Vie
Related resources
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
January 29, 2005 7:11:56 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Bob Perez" <myfirstname@thecomdomaincalledSHADOWPIKE> wrote in message
news:10vm12pjaaa6i0f@news.supernews.com...
>
> "Shadow" <kitchen@fis.org.nz> wrote in message
> news:o UuKd.138793$K7.82611@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
<snip>
> > eq2 negatives
>
> > event horizons.
>
> Yeah, I forgot how annoying zoning was until I started going back and
forth
> into both worlds. There is very little zoning in WoW, almost none. In EQ2
> you're doing it all the time and although the zones are larger for the
most
> part than they were in EQ1, it's still pretty much the same model except
> that now you have to manage instance numbers too ("everyone meet in
Antonica
> 3").

I meant as in a black hole. You cross this line, you can never go back, and
you can't see the line. Good point about the zoning though, zoning out from
the tradeskill instance to graystone, chugging around the terrain and to the
bank and then all the way back (because you have run out of backpack room
and each recipe can produce 3 outcomes that are usable and all may be
desirable) is not fun!
>
> > Some quests like the collection quests for butterflies seem to be
> > impossible
> > for the level they are designed for.
>
> I don't mind this. I love having a quest journal full of ambitious goals
> waiting for me to find the wherewithall to tackle them.

However, wouldn't it be nice if the rewards were usable at the level you
attain them, like as in the tutorial with the feathers and shells? The
butterflies quest doesn't seem attainable within the first 20 levels unless
you twink. The spotted series seem not to drop very much and i've never seen
a spotted yellow, despite a lot of collecting in the t1 zones. Each time,
i've had to buy them, although i've now made a few gold out of
buying/reselling them.
>
> > Why not make each butterfly appear in the same zone, with the same
> > probability?
<snip>

Thanks for the post, this is really useful information. Made me rethink
buying WOW just as i was about to leave for the shop ;-)

I love quests, but i love soloing. I love depth of game, but i don't like
eq2's fiddling with inventory space and overflow all the time. I think i
might like the wow art but i also like eq2 interactivity. It's a hard
choice. Maybe i'll trial it and make my mind up that way.
>
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
January 29, 2005 7:11:57 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Shadow" <kitchen@fis.org.nz> wrote in message
news:g2EKd.139190$K7.53911@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

> I love quests, but i love soloing. I love depth of game, but i don't like
> eq2's fiddling with inventory space and overflow all the time. I think i
> might like the wow art but i also like eq2 interactivity. It's a hard
> choice. Maybe i'll trial it and make my mind up that way.

I went over to my son's house today and saw the set up he's got there with
his roommates. They have a LAN with about a dozen computers in the game
room, all state-of-the-art boxes with some intense coordinated multiplay
going on in that house. Lot of UT and CS. Lately, they've all started
playing WoW, but I noticed that when they play they are all playing
separately, soloing in different areas. With classes limited to certain
racial types, they all started in separate areas and just kind of stayed in
their groove separately. Seems odd to me to see that much soloing in an MMOG
(and on a LAN no less) but the appeal of soloing is strong these days and
the market has spoken pretty loudly on the point so I expect it's going to
become more common. Maybe a new category needs to be coined here, MSOG?

--
Redbeard
<Veritas>
Dwarven Mystic and Alchemist
Loyal Citizen of the Antonia Bayle
Current resident of the Willow Wood, City of Qeynos
http://veritas.everquest2guilds.com

Descendant of the Elder Winterfury Thunderwolf
<Resolution, Retired>
Barbarian Prophet of The Tribunal
Retired Citizen of Firiona Vie
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
January 29, 2005 1:21:32 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Rumbledor" <Rumbledor@hotspamsuxmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95ED5D396DC4FRumbledorhotmailcom@63.240.76.16...

> I wasn't sure what to think about Steam at first, it honestly didn't seem
> like too much of a hassle, but after some thought and learning a bit about
> it, I have to say that I completely agree with you.

> I am honestly left wondering who they think they are, Microsoft?

Yeah I think that's exactly who they think they are. Gabe Newell comes from
Microsoft and, like a lot of Microsoft folks in our area who have started
new businesses, he may not have made the transition out of the mothership
and back to earth.

--
Bob Perez

"Men do not quit playing because they grow old; they grow old because they
quit playing."
- Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
January 29, 2005 4:34:40 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Shadow" <kitchen@fis.org.nz> wrote in message
news:IiDKd.139156$K7.9990@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
<snip>
> What about the trading system? Do they have offline trading?

There's auction houses (currently three - one Alliance in Ironforge, one Horde
in Ogrimmar and one neutral in...um...Gadgetczan? but Blizzard is working on
linked AH in each main city for each side) - put item up for auction, pay a
(partially refundable if item sells) deposit and it's up for 2/8/24 hours
(higher fees = longer time). You can the go and do whatever you want - camp
out, adventure, tradeskill, etc, etc. If it sells, you get the profits sent to
you through the in-game postal system. If it doesn't, you're out the deposit
and you get the unsold item back through the post.

>
> What about sound? Would you say the voices in eq2 are better than WOW? Is
> the lore as deep?

Voice acting is WC3-esque (stock greetings plus the NPCs get annoyed if you
keep clicking them) plus a set number of voice macros for players. No 100%
voiced NPC scripts, unlike EQ2.

--
Simond
"I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say and I will be your
slave." - Jareth the Goblin King, Labyrinth
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
January 29, 2005 4:55:37 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Bob Perez" <myfirstname@thecomdomaincalledSHADOWPIKE> wrote in message
news:10vm12pjaaa6i0f@news.supernews.com...
>
>
<snip>

I was going to do a point-by-point commentary on your post, but it ended up
seeming a little antagonistic which wasn't my intention. So I'm just going to
add one comment. =)


> There are many, many, more points of comparison of these two games and I'm
> still making my way through them both. My wife and I are 35/30 in EQ2 and
> 20/20 in WoW and we have enough fun in both that it's a real toss up which
> to play on any given night. Fortunately, the structure of EQ2 lends itself
> to organized events that we can schedule with the guild on a regular and
> ongoing basis, and the free-form soloing of WoW allows us to pop in at any
> time to make progress either together or individually. So the reality is,
> we're having a great time playing both and our path is clear. I forsee great
> and epic adventure ahead in EQ2 with my guild and the rich lore and deep
> questing offered there. Also, the great groups we've forged there will get
> us through the most exciting content the game offers. With WoW, I expect
> we'll have a good time making our way up the levels much the same way that
> we kept playing Diablo. Blizzard still knows how to make a fun game.
>
> I love a good Bordeaux and will take the time to prepare it and savor it on
> those occasions when I can enjoy it. But there's still nothing that beats a
> nice cold Pepsi in a can any random time that I feel like having one.
>
>

I feel that you are selling WoW somewhat short in many respects, especially
the 'feel' of the game world. The WoW lore is just as rich to a longtime fan
of the Warcraft series as EQ2 is to an EQ fan (in fact, I'd bet that if you
asked someone who's never played EQ but has played WC/2/3 - they'd say that
EQ2 has shallow, generic lore compared to the rich, deep lore of Azeroth. =p).

I also think that Vanguard (when released) is going to hit EQ2 a lot harder
than WoW, as they're both aimed at a similar market (the 'Must have a
group/grind/endure timesinks' crowd) whereas WoW is aimed more at the
'generic' gamer market. Mind you, Guild Wars is probably going to 'steal' more
customers/potential customers from WoW more than EQ2, so it all balances out.
=)

--
Simond
"I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say and I will be your
slave." - Jareth the Goblin King, Labyrinth
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
January 29, 2005 4:55:38 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Simond" <apocalypsecow@spamfilterdeletemeplease.dsl.pipex.net> wrote in
message news:SNednWmHId8UBWbcRVnyiw@pipex.net...

> I was going to do a point-by-point commentary on your post, but it ended
> up
> seeming a little antagonistic which wasn't my intention. So I'm just going
> to
> add one comment. =)

Right, no need for antagonism. My points are nothing more than my own
observations and opinion. To someone who favors WoW over EQ2 my comment
about Pepsi vs. Bordeaux is not going to go over well, but that's how I see
it. I tried to come up with a way of communicating my personal sense of
great satisfaction from both, while recognizing that both satisfy something
different. If you worked for Pepsi, you'd take great pride in that comment
.... Thanks for showing some restraint, though, it's one of reasons I prefer
to post here rather than c.s.i.p.c.r.!

> I feel that you are selling WoW somewhat short in many respects,
> especially
> the 'feel' of the game world. The WoW lore is just as rich to a longtime
> fan
> of the Warcraft series as EQ2 is to an EQ fan (in fact, I'd bet that if
> you
> asked someone who's never played EQ but has played WC/2/3 - they'd say
> that
> EQ2 has shallow, generic lore compared to the rich, deep lore of Azeroth.
> =p).

That's a fair point, I wouldn't argue against it. I don't know about selling
it short, I've been exposed to both the WC lore and EQ lore since the
beginning and throughout all of their lifecycles, so I'm aware that there's
a body of lore there supporting both. I just come out feeling that there's
more depth and continuity in the EQ world than the world of Azeroth. It
won't surprise me to find that there are other views on this. ;-)

> I also think that Vanguard (when released) is going to hit EQ2 a lot
> harder
> than WoW, as they're both aimed at a similar market (the 'Must have a
> group/grind/endure timesinks' crowd) whereas WoW is aimed more at the
> 'generic' gamer market. Mind you, Guild Wars is probably going to 'steal'
> more
> customers/potential customers from WoW more than EQ2, so it all balances
> out.

I agree that Vanguard is going to hit EQ2 harder than WoW because both games
appeal to the kind of gamer who seek significant challenge and depth from
their MMOG. Blizzard is interesting because they make both types of games.
Starcraft and Warcraft appeal to many hardcore gamers looking for serious,
challenging play (just look at the Korean obsession with Starcraft and the
competitive ladders for both RTS's). And then look at Diablo, one of the
most fun games I've ever played, but not anywhere in the same league when it
comes to challenging game play. With WoW, Blizzard seems to have taken the
Diablo approach: fun as hell, easy as hell. The only real challenge I've
seen in this game that taps into significant player skills is the PvP game,
where only the best will be able to consistently dominate. Other than that,
it's probably the easiest MMOG I've ever seen in terms of just surviving and
leveling up. The biggest challenge I see between me and level 60 is my
ability to schedule game time. The goal in EQ2 is different, it's always
been about the gear, and the primary obstacles standing between me and
attainment of the many tantalizing items dangling out in front of me, are
quests that are challenging to approach, to figure out and to execute
against. The vast majority of our guild's organized activities revolve
around figuring out how to execute against the many Heritage quests that
will yield up the goodies we drool for.

I understand your comment about EQ2 and grouping, that's a well-known bias
of the EverQuest universe with upsides and downsides. I've gone both ways on
the point, initially leaving EQ because of it and then returning to it after
experiencing the alternative. But grinding? Oh, come on. In EQ2 I never,
ever feel the need to grind. I spend 100% of my game time doing quests and
*almost* incidentally killing things along the way. I can't remember ever
feeling the need to grind monsters simply for experience. I'm sure some
players do, but I don't see them here. WoW promotes grinding pretty openly
because the goal in WoW has always been to level. This makes sense for the
PvP game where levels will be mandatory, but I'm not sure what's going to
happen to the players who hit 60 on non PvP servers. What will be left for
them? Blizzard has always openly promoted leveling as the goal. Even in
beta they had a contest where the winner was determined by who hit the
highest level during the period! There's your formula for promoting
grinding. Fortunately, the combat mechanics of WoW are so damned fun that
grinding isn't so bad. I love playing my wife's Rogue character, it's
clearly more fun than playing her EQ2 Rogue, big kudos to Blizzard for once
again doing what they do best: making it fun. Don't sell that short. :p 

--
Redbeard
<Veritas>
Dwarven Mystic and Alchemist
Loyal Citizen of the Antonia Bayle
Current resident of the Willow Wood, City of Qeynos
http://veritas.everquest2guilds.com

Descendant of the Elder Winterfury Thunderwolf
<Resolution, Retired>
Barbarian Prophet of The Tribunal
Retired Citizen of Firiona Vie
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
January 29, 2005 4:55:39 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

In article <10vno5scd1vp8d7@news.supernews.com>, Bob Perez
<myfirstname@thecomdomaincalledSHADOWPIKE> wrote:
> That's a fair point, I wouldn't argue against it. I don't know about selling
> it short, I've been exposed to both the WC lore and EQ lore since the
> beginning and throughout all of their lifecycles, so I'm aware that there's
> a body of lore there supporting both. I just come out feeling that there's
> more depth and continuity in the EQ world than the world of Azeroth. It
> won't surprise me to find that there are other views on this. ;-)

I came to WoW and EQ2 with no real experience of the lore behind
either. My initial impression was the opposite of yours--that WoW had
more and deeper backstory, and that WoW's quests were much more
integrated into the ongoing story of the world.

It might well be that I didn't play EQ2 enough to start seeing the more
story-driven quests--I only reached level 12 or so. It's also possible
that starting location has something to do with this; I think the
low-level night elf quests in WoW are more interesting than the human
ones.

My impression may also be colored by the setting: I found EQ2's
simplistic division between a "good" and "evil" faction with a single
city per side to be very bland.


> I agree that Vanguard is going to hit EQ2 harder than WoW because both games
> appeal to the kind of gamer who seek significant challenge and depth from
> their MMOG. Blizzard is interesting because they make both types of games.
> Starcraft and Warcraft appeal to many hardcore gamers looking for serious,
> challenging play (just look at the Korean obsession with Starcraft and the
> competitive ladders for both RTS's). And then look at Diablo, one of the
> most fun games I've ever played, but not anywhere in the same league when it
> comes to challenging game play. With WoW, Blizzard seems to have taken the
> Diablo approach: fun as hell, easy as hell. The only real challenge I've
> seen in this game that taps into significant player skills is the PvP game,
> where only the best will be able to consistently dominate. Other than that,
> it's probably the easiest MMOG I've ever seen in terms of just surviving and
> leveling up.

That's because you haven't reached the hard part yet. WoW is designed
to appeal to both casual and hardcore gameplay styles--a casual player
can play all the way to level 60 without trouble. That's just the
start of the game, however; the hardcore game really begins at 60.
Before 60, it's always possible to leave a task until you're high
enough level to make it easy; post level-cap, that's not an option.


> I understand your comment about EQ2 and grouping, that's a well-known bias
> of the EverQuest universe with upsides and downsides. I've gone both ways on
> the point, initially leaving EQ because of it and then returning to it after
> experiencing the alternative. But grinding? Oh, come on. In EQ2 I never,
> ever feel the need to grind. I spend 100% of my game time doing quests and
> *almost* incidentally killing things along the way. I can't remember ever
> feeling the need to grind monsters simply for experience. I'm sure some
> players do, but I don't see them here. WoW promotes grinding pretty openly
> because the goal in WoW has always been to level.

This just seems odd to me. "I spend 100% of my game time doing quests
and *almost* incidentally killing things along the way." -- that's
exactly how I'd describe WoW. I'm certain there's someone, somewhere,
who is grinding in WoW, but I strongly suspect they're in a minority.

EQ2 may well be the same; I was quest-focused there as well for the
levels I played it. I do note that a common complaint I hear in this
group, however, is the difficulty of finding a group that wants to do
anything other than grind. I suspect that having a good guild of
friends to play with makes EQ2 a *much* more enjoyable experience for
you than for someone without that support--not that any game isn't
better with friends, but EQ2's group-orientation may makes that support
group far more important.


> This makes sense for the
> PvP game where levels will be mandatory, but I'm not sure what's going to
> happen to the players who hit 60 on non PvP servers. What will be left for
> them?

High-end instances, raids, and realm-vs-realm battlegrounds.

- Damien
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
January 29, 2005 7:49:22 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Damien Neil" <neild-usenet@misago.org> wrote in message
news:290120051227188504%neild-usenet@misago.org...

> It might well be that I didn't play EQ2 enough to start seeing the more
> story-driven quests--I only reached level 12 or so.

Well yeah, at level 12 you're barely getting out of the starting towns and
haven't made any real progress on your hallmark quests. And you have no
Heritage quests, which are one of the primary manifestations of the EQ lore
in EQ2.

> That's because you haven't reached the hard part yet. WoW is designed
> to appeal to both casual and hardcore gameplay styles--a casual player
> can play all the way to level 60 without trouble. That's just the
> start of the game, however; the hardcore game really begins at 60.

Right, it's true of all these games that a different game emerges at level
cap. EverQuest 1 was legendary as the game that didn't start until you hit
level 65 so it's not surprising that WoW and EQ2 will also share some of
this. A new game has to be available for those who've capped out, else there
wouldn't be much to keep them there. Glad to hear you say that it won't
always be this easy.

> This just seems odd to me. "I spend 100% of my game time doing quests
> and *almost* incidentally killing things along the way." -- that's
> exactly how I'd describe WoW. I'm certain there's someone, somewhere,
> who is grinding in WoW, but I strongly suspect they're in a minority.

Hard for me to accept that last comment based on what I've seen so far, but
the fact that you and I have different perceptions probably illustrates that
there's more common ground here than either of us individually has
experienced. My perception is that the quests are too simplistic and linear
to be very satisfying and that makes it feel more like a grind to me. On the
other hand, I do hear a lot of quest talk in the chat channel and very
little talk about xp'ing and that does support what you're saying.

> EQ2 may well be the same; I was quest-focused there as well for the
> levels I played it. I do note that a common complaint I hear in this
> group, however, is the difficulty of finding a group that wants to do
> anything other than grind. I suspect that having a good guild of
> friends to play with makes EQ2 a *much* more enjoyable experience for
> you than for someone without that support--not that any game isn't
> better with friends, but EQ2's group-orientation may makes that support
> group far more important.

Yep, that's a key difference between these two games. EQ2 reflects SOE's
bent toward grouping and despite all their claims to the contrary, the game
is still largely group oriented with much less for the solo or small group
player.

> High-end instances, raids, and realm-vs-realm battlegrounds.

You know, when people say "raid" in EQ they have a very specific thing in
mind, and it involves multiple groups taking on big uglies in hard-to-reach
spots in search of great glory and loot. In WoW, 9 times out of 10, if
someone says "Raid" they're talking about a bunch of PvP players running
through town killing other players. This is the only use I've seen of the
term so far. Where exactly are the EQ style raids in WoW?

--
Redbeard
<Veritas>
Dwarven Mystic and Alchemist
Loyal Citizen of the Antonia Bayle
Current resident of the Willow Wood, City of Qeynos
http://veritas.everquest2guilds.com

Descendant of the Elder Winterfury Thunderwolf
<Resolution, Retired>
Barbarian Prophet of The Tribunal
Retired Citizen of Firiona Vie
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
January 29, 2005 9:42:28 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

In article <10vobgp1oise761@news.supernews.com>, Bob Perez
<myfirstname@thecomdomaincalledSHADOWPIKE> wrote:
> Right, it's true of all these games that a different game emerges at level
> cap. EverQuest 1 was legendary as the game that didn't start until you hit
> level 65 so it's not surprising that WoW and EQ2 will also share some of
> this. A new game has to be available for those who've capped out, else there
> wouldn't be much to keep them there. Glad to hear you say that it won't
> always be this easy.

I recently went into the Uldaman instance dungeon with several friends.
We ranged from levels 43-49; given that my highest-level quest in there
was tagged 44, I expected an easy time of it. We did well enough up to
the end boss, where we proceded to have our collective butts handed to
us. So, yes, it definitely gets harder if you're willing to seek out
challenges.

If you haven't done it already, you may want to try the Deadmines
instance--from what I hear, it's a good challenge for a group of five
people around level 20.


> Hard for me to accept that last comment based on what I've seen so far, but
> the fact that you and I have different perceptions probably illustrates that
> there's more common ground here than either of us individually has
> experienced. My perception is that the quests are too simplistic and linear
> to be very satisfying and that makes it feel more like a grind to me. On the
> other hand, I do hear a lot of quest talk in the chat channel and very
> little talk about xp'ing and that does support what you're saying.

I honestly haven't met a single person in WoW who was killing mobs with
the intent to get xp, rather than to complete quests. I'm certain
there are some out there, but it doesn't seem to be how most people
play the game.


> > High-end instances, raids, and realm-vs-realm battlegrounds.
>
> You know, when people say "raid" in EQ they have a very specific thing in
> mind, and it involves multiple groups taking on big uglies in hard-to-reach
> spots in search of great glory and loot. In WoW, 9 times out of 10, if
> someone says "Raid" they're talking about a bunch of PvP players running
> through town killing other players. This is the only use I've seen of the
> term so far. Where exactly are the EQ style raids in WoW?

At level 60. Since there aren't that many people at the level cap yet,
it's only the uber guilds taking part in them so far.

Onyxia (a dragon) is the current raid-to-beat; I believe a guild in
Korea has managed to kill her, but no North American guilds have yet.
There's also Molten Core, which is supposed to be even harder. I think
there may be one or two other raids currently available. It'll be a
while before I can think about getting involved in them, so I'm rather
foggy on the details.

There's a fair bit of information on WoW raids here:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/pvp/raid-article.shtml

- Damien
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
January 29, 2005 9:55:52 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Firian" <G.Booth@usm.edu> wrote in message news:41fa9119$1@nntp.usm.edu...
> "Shadow" <kitchen@fis.org.nz> wrote in message
> news:o UuKd.138793$K7.82611@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

>> inferior graphics
>
> I would argue the inferior graphics part. The graphics are actually quite
> nice and rather beautiful, but the best part is, the server I'm on has no
> lag whatsoever...can run around all I want, looking at the beauty of the
> world, and don't have the huge lag spikes I was experiencing in EQ2 from
> those 'superior' graphics. :)  I also like the fact that character creation
> is better than EQ2. In EQ2, I had expected this huge range of
> customizability, but instead, from what I've seen, you get a face that
> looks like everybody else's face, except you can make the nose, or the
> mouth, or the chin longer or broader...but you still look like everyone
> else of that race. With WoW, you can actually select between several
> facial features that look radically different from one another. Granted, I
> just started playing WoW last night, but have a 4th level night elf druid,
> a 3rd level human pally, and a 2nd level undead warlock so far, and am
> amazed at the playability of the game and the beauty of the world around
> my characters.

Really? Before WoW's release one of the common complaints I had heard about
it was the lack of real customability of one's character. The argument went
that you could make yourself, say, a human male, but you'd end up looking
exactly like every other human male in the game. (Maybe it also included
class, so a human male of one class would look distinct from a human male of
another class, but all the human males of the same class looked essentially
alike)

Did that change? Or were the people who were reporting this problem wrong?
Or is this new claim of yours wrong?

And just an opinion of mine based on playing games where you can make
customized faces, unless you change facial features like chins, noses, eyes
into grotesque, exaggerated features, they really don't make much more than
a slight cosmetic difference. The only thing that really distinguishes
character facial models from one another are hairstyles.

C
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
January 29, 2005 9:55:53 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Charles Whitney" <cbillingsw@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:362m48F4srpdcU1@individual.net...

> Really? Before WoW's release one of the common complaints I had heard
> about it was the lack of real customability of one's character.

> Did that change? Or were the people who were reporting this problem
> wrong? Or is this new claim of yours wrong?

There is still very little meaningful customization of character models.

--
Redbeard
<Veritas>
Dwarven Mystic and Alchemist
Loyal Citizen of the Antonia Bayle
Current resident of the Willow Wood, City of Qeynos
http://veritas.everquest2guilds.com

Descendant of the Elder Winterfury Thunderwolf
<Resolution, Retired>
Barbarian Prophet of The Tribunal
Retired Citizen of Firiona Vie
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
January 29, 2005 9:55:54 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 16:14:57 -0800, "Bob Perez"
<myfirstname@thecomdomaincalledSHADOWPIKE> wrote:

>
>"Charles Whitney" <cbillingsw@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:362m48F4srpdcU1@individual.net...
>
>> Really? Before WoW's release one of the common complaints I had heard
>> about it was the lack of real customability of one's character.
>
>> Did that change? Or were the people who were reporting this problem
>> wrong? Or is this new claim of yours wrong?
>
>There is still very little meaningful customization of character models.

Thing is, while it could do with more, it doesn't really need much
more customization. After a point, customization is fluff. Who's going
to notice that your eyes tilt 2 degrees more than the other guys? Or
your eyes are a shade lighter? Hell, most people don't even notice eye
color on other people's characters 'til you're right in their face. My
only request would be some more faces and hair styles... Possibly more
"jewelry" and even some on the males.

--
Dark Tyger

Sympathy for the retailer:
http://www.actsofgord.com/index.html
"Door's to your left" -Gord
(I have no association with this site. Just thought it was funny as hell)

Protect free speech: http://stopfcc.com/
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
January 29, 2005 10:56:49 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

In article <OUuKd.138793$K7.82611@news-server.bigpond.net.au>, Shadow wrote:
> Wow minuses No tradeskilling? inferior graphics
....
> EQ2
....
> Terrific visually although the graphics are if anything a little too
> advanced for the current generation of video cards.

Actually, I think WoW has better graphics. EQ2 has more detailed character
models, but WoW's models are better animated, and WoW's landscapes are
better. EQ2 shows that throwing a lot of polygons at things is not the way
to get the best looking graphics.

There seems to be something very inefficent about EQ2's graphics engine.
Even ignoring games like WoW, which go for a cartoonish/stylistic look which
doesn't require as many polygons, and just comparing to games that go for a
realistic look, EQ2 is very sluggish for what it does. Compare to, say, the
Catacombs expansion for DAoC. I think EQ2 has more detailed character
models, but for the rest, Catacombs looks better (more realistic) and
performs better.

--
--Tim Smith
January 30, 2005 4:55:14 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Bob Perez" <myfirstname@thecomdomaincalledSHADOWPIKE> writes:

> "Damien Neil" <neild-usenet@misago.org> wrote in message
> news:290120051227188504%neild-usenet@misago.org...
> > High-end instances, raids, and realm-vs-realm battlegrounds.
>
> You know, when people say "raid" in EQ they have a very specific thing in
> mind, and it involves multiple groups taking on big uglies in hard-to-reach
> spots in search of great glory and loot. In WoW, 9 times out of 10, if
> someone says "Raid" they're talking about a bunch of PvP players running
> through town killing other players. This is the only use I've seen of the
> term so far. Where exactly are the EQ style raids in WoW?

I don't really follow WoW much (they lost me at the "no, you can't
play on the US servers, come back once we release in Europe"), but as
I understand it they've hired a bunch of former Everquest uber guild
players to do game design for raids. E.g. Furor from Fires of Heaven.
It'll be interesting to see if he'll manage to actually do better than
the SOE designers he's been whining about for so long...
January 30, 2005 4:58:09 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Tim Smith <reply_in_group@mouse-potato.com> writes:

> There seems to be something very inefficent about EQ2's graphics engine.
> Even ignoring games like WoW, which go for a cartoonish/stylistic look which
> doesn't require as many polygons, and just comparing to games that go for a
> realistic look, EQ2 is very sluggish for what it does. Compare to, say, the
> Catacombs expansion for DAoC. I think EQ2 has more detailed character
> models, but for the rest, Catacombs looks better (more realistic) and
> performs better.

It's not just EQ2, EQ and SWG have the same problem with poor graphics
performance. It seems that SOE has real trouble attracting high
quality 3D engine developers. Why they continue insisting on rolling
their own is more than I can figure out, thought perhaps Not Invented Here
syndrome explains it.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
January 30, 2005 5:38:48 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Dark Tyger" <darktiger@somewhere.net> wrote in message
news:54dov0t04u694srfpm3n0n7ecnkc9l0m9g@4ax.com...

>>There is still very little meaningful customization of character models.
>
> Thing is, while it could do with more, it doesn't really need much
> more customization. After a point, customization is fluff. Who's going
> to notice that your eyes tilt 2 degrees more than the other guys? Or
> your eyes are a shade lighter? Hell, most people don't even notice eye
> color on other people's characters 'til you're right in their face. My
> only request would be some more faces and hair styles... Possibly more
> "jewelry" and even some on the males.

It's true, most of these games don't need the level of customization that's
offered by EQ2, for example, where the breadth of jaw or length of chin will
never be noticed lol. I think your suggestion of more faces and hair styles
(things you could actually notice) provide a happy medium somewhere between
EQ2 and WoW.

--
Redbeard
<Veritas>
Dwarven Mystic and Alchemist
Loyal Citizen of the Antonia Bayle
Current resident of the Willow Wood, City of Qeynos
http://veritas.everquest2guilds.com

Descendant of the Elder Winterfury Thunderwolf
<Resolution, Retired>
Barbarian Prophet of The Tribunal
Retired Citizen of Firiona Vie
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
January 30, 2005 6:01:14 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Damien Neil" <neild-usenet@misago.org> wrote in message
news:290120051842280533%neild-usenet@misago.org...

> If you haven't done it already, you may want to try the Deadmines
> instance--from what I hear, it's a good challenge for a group of five
> people around level 20.

Just hit Deadmines tonight. We held our own but it was definitely more
challenging!

> I honestly haven't met a single person in WoW who was killing mobs with
> the intent to get xp, rather than to complete quests. I'm certain
> there are some out there, but it doesn't seem to be how most people
> play the game.

In EQ2 it's common knowledge that you don't ever go out and kill mobs
without having some quests driving the action. You do quests and the kills
and xp will come. Sounds like both you guys are saying this is also true in
WoW. My experience with the game is still sufficiently limited and anecdotal
that I can accept on faith that you guys feel the same way that I do, even
though I don't yet see it. Interesting difference of perspectives, eh?

<raids>

> At level 60. Since there aren't that many people at the level cap yet,
> it's only the uber guilds taking part in them so far.
>
> Onyxia (a dragon) is the current raid-to-beat; I believe a guild in
> Korea has managed to kill her, but no North American guilds have yet.
> There's also Molten Core, which is supposed to be even harder. I think
> there may be one or two other raids currently available. It'll be a
> while before I can think about getting involved in them, so I'm rather
> foggy on the details.
>
> There's a fair bit of information on WoW raids here:
> http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/pvp/raid-article.shtml

Ahh, exactly what I was looking for, thanks for the reference! The more I
see of this game, the better I understand it. Still, after spending most of
the night tonight playing EQ2 I recalled all the reasons I prefer the quests
of EQ2. We took five people in our guild through a Heritage quest and just
about dinged a guild level in the process, it was enormously fun and
engaging on a level that I have yet to see in WoW. I hope that the influence
of guys like Furor and Tigole is felt soon.

I dont know if you had a chance to read my account of the Lord Everling
event in Nektropos Castle (see thread entitled "Lord Everling must die") but
are there quests in WoW similar to this in scope, complexity, challenge and
diversity of experience? Nektropos Castle exemplifies imo the best of EQ2's
depth and challenge, taking a full group nearly 4 hours to complete on a
wonderful roller coaster ride of an experience. This is what brings me back
....

--
Redbeard
<Veritas>
Dwarven Mystic and Alchemist
Loyal Citizen of the Antonia Bayle
Current resident of the Willow Wood, City of Qeynos
http://veritas.everquest2guilds.com

Descendant of the Elder Winterfury Thunderwolf
<Resolution, Retired>
Barbarian Prophet of The Tribunal
Retired Citizen of Firiona Vie
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
January 30, 2005 7:41:43 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

In article <87acqrivm5.fsf@pluto.elizium.org>, patrik@nordebo.com
wrote:
> I don't really follow WoW much (they lost me at the "no, you can't
> play on the US servers, come back once we release in Europe"), but as
> I understand it they've hired a bunch of former Everquest uber guild
> players to do game design for raids. E.g. Furor from Fires of Heaven.
> It'll be interesting to see if he'll manage to actually do better than
> the SOE designers he's been whining about for so long...

I believe Tigole from Legacy of Steel is the raid designer for WoW.

--
--Tim Smith
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
January 30, 2005 7:41:44 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Tim Smith" <reply_in_group@mouse-potato.com> wrote in message
news:reply_in_group-

>> players to do game design for raids. E.g. Furor from Fires of Heaven.

> I believe Tigole from Legacy of Steel is the raid designer for WoW.

So ... what have Furor and Tigole been up to in the years since their hiring
was announced? From what I can determine there still isn't any raid content
in the sense that I understand raids. Are they still working on it?

--
Redbeard
<Veritas>
Dwarven Mystic and Alchemist
Loyal Citizen of the Antonia Bayle
Current resident of the Willow Wood, City of Qeynos
http://veritas.everquest2guilds.com

Descendant of the Elder Winterfury Thunderwolf
<Resolution, Retired>
Barbarian Prophet of The Tribunal
Retired Citizen of Firiona Vie
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
January 30, 2005 9:36:06 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Shadow" <kitchen@fis.org.nz> wrote in message
news:o UuKd.138793$K7.82611@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>I haven't seen WOW yet, so i'll rely on the experience of the readers out
> there for more information, but here is my impression.
>
>
> Wow pluses.
>
> Wow has a good quest sharing system.
> Soling better than eq2 although eq2 might be closing the gap with recent
> changes.
> Wow minuses
> No tradeskilling?
> inferior graphics
>
>
> EQ2
>
> Voices add a lot of flavour and can crack me up. Also, i love that kerran
> female voice. ;-)
>
> Terrific visually although the graphics are if anything a little too
> advanced for the current generation of video cards.
>
> Lore is deep and continuity with eq1 is as far as i know, unique. Someone
> once said "why roleplay in eq1 when you know halas (for example is going
> to
> be destroyed". My answer is if you are roleplaying a roman soldier, you
> ignore the fact that rome will fall and people will stereotype your race
> as
> pizza producing cowards, in spite of a history of bloody conquest and
> empire. You just try to be the best roman soldier you can be.
>
> Tradeskilling better than eq1 but cumbersome, repitious, and strangely
> lethal if you use a forge. I studied chemistry and the chem building had a
> fire about once a year. Quite a few of my lecturers had facial scars from
> where assorted items had exploded, and i almost had the fun of having a
> vial
> of ether explode when a fellow student put a bunsen burner under her steam
> distill only apparatus. I seriously doubt blacksmithing would be
> substantially more dangerous than alchemy.
>
>
> eq2 negatives
>
> event horizons. You can be walking in a particular direction and suddenly
> find you can't walk back. Black holes work that way. Reality might be
> nasty
> with traps like that, but a game doesn't have to be. Why did they build
> them
> into eq2? Did some dev belong to a secret cult of player haters? Sometimes
> it reminds me of the way people play the sims, and get the characters to
> go
> into the swimming pool. then remove the ladder, so they can't get out. EQ1
> did that a few times (POG faction could never be improved, for example)
> but
> there's a lot of it in eq2. I hope they fix the gnoll language quest.
>
> tradeskilling can be terribly frustrating.
>
> Some quests like the collection quests for butterflies seem to be
> impossible
> for the level they are designed for. I've taken to buying up spotted
> yellows
> and reselling them for a profit. Meanwhilst, other ones sell for a few
> copper. (bought 2 for 50 sp, sold 1 gp and tonight others are selling for
> 3
> gp) Why not make each butterfly appear in the same zone, with the same
> probability? What's the advantage in denying people access to a level
> appropriate collectable unless they are twinking an alt?
>
>
> If anyone knows any wow negatives please add them as my ignorance of the
> game may make this post unduly weighted against eq2, whears i suspect the
> problems are endemic to MMOGS.
>
>
> Ralph Nebbish,
>
> spam spam spam spam spam,
>
> Najena.
>
>

You forgot the biggest negative for eq2.....
Its an SOE product.

Also you say eq2 has better graphics. Its at the cost of framerate, so it
arguable if its really "better".
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
January 30, 2005 11:58:43 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 02:38:48 -0800, "Bob Perez"
<myfirstname@thecomdomaincalledSHADOWPIKE> wrote:

>
>"Dark Tyger" <darktiger@somewhere.net> wrote in message
>news:54dov0t04u694srfpm3n0n7ecnkc9l0m9g@4ax.com...
>
>>>There is still very little meaningful customization of character models.
>>
>> Thing is, while it could do with more, it doesn't really need much
>> more customization. After a point, customization is fluff. Who's going
>> to notice that your eyes tilt 2 degrees more than the other guys? Or
>> your eyes are a shade lighter? Hell, most people don't even notice eye
>> color on other people's characters 'til you're right in their face. My
>> only request would be some more faces and hair styles... Possibly more
>> "jewelry" and even some on the males.
>
>It's true, most of these games don't need the level of customization that's
>offered by EQ2, for example, where the breadth of jaw or length of chin will
>never be noticed lol. I think your suggestion of more faces and hair styles
>(things you could actually notice) provide a happy medium somewhere between
>EQ2 and WoW.

In all honesty, I think EQ2 offers -too much- customization. And,
really, it's hard to get a truly distinctive look even with all the
options offered. Hair style, skin tone, and hair color are still the
most noticeable customizations.

--
Dark Tyger

Sympathy for the retailer:
http://www.actsofgord.com/index.html
"Door's to your left" -Gord
(I have no association with this site. Just thought it was funny as hell)

Protect free speech: http://stopfcc.com/
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
January 30, 2005 3:33:14 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

In article <10vpfc0asma5jf9@news.supernews.com>, Bob Perez
<myfirstname@thecomdomaincalledSHADOWPIKE> wrote:
> I dont know if you had a chance to read my account of the Lord Everling
> event in Nektropos Castle (see thread entitled "Lord Everling must die") but
> are there quests in WoW similar to this in scope, complexity, challenge and
> diversity of experience? Nektropos Castle exemplifies imo the best of EQ2's
> depth and challenge, taking a full group nearly 4 hours to complete on a
> wonderful roller coaster ride of an experience. This is what brings me back
> ...

I did read that, and found it very interesting. I haven't run into any
zone in WoW that matches it for length and complexity, unfortunately.

Of the instances I've been in, Uldaman probably comes the closest. It
certainly has some of the more memorable scenes--especially the final
battle, as Archaedas towers over you while bringing more and more of
the statues in the room to life.

- Damien
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
January 30, 2005 5:47:48 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Bob Perez" <myfirstname@thecomdomaincalledSHADOWPIKE> wrote in
news:10vpe1tf9e62v80@news.supernews.com:

>
> "Dark Tyger" <darktiger@somewhere.net> wrote in message
> news:54dov0t04u694srfpm3n0n7ecnkc9l0m9g@4ax.com...
>
>>>There is still very little meaningful customization of
character
>>>models.
>>
>> Thing is, while it could do with more, it doesn't really need
much
>> more customization. After a point, customization is fluff.
Who's
>> going to notice that your eyes tilt 2 degrees more than the
other
>> guys? Or your eyes are a shade lighter? Hell, most people don't
even
>> notice eye color on other people's characters 'til you're right
in
>> their face. My only request would be some more faces and hair
>> styles... Possibly more "jewelry" and even some on the males.
>
> It's true, most of these games don't need the level of
customization
> that's offered by EQ2, for example, where the breadth of jaw or
length
> of chin will never be noticed lol. I think your suggestion of
more
> faces and hair styles (things you could actually notice) provide
a
> happy medium somewhere between EQ2 and WoW.
>

Hairstyles, gross height adjustments and a wide variety of looks
on equipment of similar stats are usually enough -- I certainly
don't see the more subtle differences.

--
Arch Convoker Mairelon Snapbang
Feral Lord Bosra Snowclaw
Lanys T'vyl (Retired)

Mairelon, 15th Paladin
Silverhand

My WoW Mods: http://therealorang.com
Yes, FlexBar 1.24 is out :) 
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
January 30, 2005 5:47:49 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

On 30 Jan 2005 14:47:48 GMT, Sean Kennedy <x@y.z> wrote:

>Hairstyles, gross height adjustments and a wide variety of looks
>on equipment of similar stats are usually enough -- I certainly
>don't see the more subtle differences.

Height adjustment in WoW would definitely be nice. I'm not sure why
they don't offer it. They gave some line about scaling armor, but I
just don't see how that can be that big of an issue.

--
Dark Tyger

Sympathy for the retailer:
http://www.actsofgord.com/index.html
"Door's to your left" -Gord
(I have no association with this site. Just thought it was funny as hell)

Protect free speech: http://stopfcc.com/
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
January 30, 2005 5:52:45 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Bob Perez" <myfirstname@thecomdomaincalledSHADOWPIKE> wrote in
news:10vpe778ggclo4a@news.supernews.com:

>
> "Tim Smith" <reply_in_group@mouse-potato.com> wrote in message
> news:reply_in_group-
>
>>> players to do game design for raids. E.g. Furor from Fires of
>>> Heaven.
>
>> I believe Tigole from Legacy of Steel is the raid designer for
WoW.
>
> So ... what have Furor and Tigole been up to in the years since
their
> hiring was announced? From what I can determine there still
isn't any
> raid content in the sense that I understand raids. Are they
still
> working on it?
>

Onyxia definitely qualifies. She's the easiest raid in the game,
and no US guild has beaten her yet (Conquest got her to ~20%
IIRC).

Ragnaros (sp?) was supposed to be in at release as well, but I
don't know if he made it and no one has attempted it, or if he
didn't make release.

As much as I like WoW, and am glad they released so I could play,
I think they needed about 4-6 more months of beta (in a perfect
world) to get more raids in, battlegrounds and hero-classes. Then
this would be a moot point.

--
Arch Convoker Mairelon Snapbang
Feral Lord Bosra Snowclaw
Lanys T'vyl (Retired)

Mairelon, 15th Paladin
Silverhand

My WoW Mods: http://therealorang.com
Yes, FlexBar 1.24 is out :) 
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
January 30, 2005 5:52:46 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

On 30 Jan 2005 14:52:45 GMT, Sean Kennedy <x@y.z> wrote:

>As much as I like WoW, and am glad they released so I could play,
>I think they needed about 4-6 more months of beta (in a perfect
>world) to get more raids in, battlegrounds and hero-classes. Then
>this would be a moot point.

Yeah, I honestly think it was Vivendi that pushed them for an early
release. VU is, I believe, still floundering financially, and Blizzard
was showing massive costs with their huge beta and no income off of
it.

--
Dark Tyger

Sympathy for the retailer:
http://www.actsofgord.com/index.html
"Door's to your left" -Gord
(I have no association with this site. Just thought it was funny as hell)

Protect free speech: http://stopfcc.com/
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
January 30, 2005 5:52:46 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

In article <364alsF4qbbqlU6@individual.net>, Sean Kennedy <x@y.z> wrote:
> Ragnaros (sp?) was supposed to be in at release as well, but I
> don't know if he made it and no one has attempted it, or if he
> didn't make release.

I think he's in Molten Core. I've heard that Conquest has managed to
defeat the first sub-boss in there, but they've still got a way to go
to reach the end.

I'm curious whether the post-Onyxia raid is in--she's supposed to
unlock access to someone else.


> As much as I like WoW, and am glad they released so I could play,
> I think they needed about 4-6 more months of beta (in a perfect
> world) to get more raids in, battlegrounds and hero-classes. Then
> this would be a moot point.

It'd have been nice, but it really doesn't bother me much. There's so
much to do from 1-60 that they have a fair bit of time before they need
more high-level content.

- Damien
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
January 30, 2005 10:29:28 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Damien Neil" <neild-usenet@misago.org> wrote in message
news:300120051233143314%neild-usenet@misago.org...

> Of the instances I've been in, Uldaman probably comes the closest. It
> certainly has some of the more memorable scenes--especially the final
> battle, as Archaedas towers over you while bringing more and more of
> the statues in the room to life.

I look forward to getting there and experiencing it, I see general chat
about Uldaman all the time and now I'm really intrigued. Unfortunately,
right now I'm sitting in a queue with 587 players ahead of me (estimated
time to log in another 33 minutes). Pretty annoying, but I understand the
problem is only on the more populous servers? Unfortunately, my wife and I
chose this server because our son plays there so we don't want to move. Do
you know if Blizzard provides an option to move your characters to another
server? I might be able to convince him and his friends to move, I think
they're all fed up with the queues.

--
Redbeard
<Veritas>
Dwarven Mystic and Alchemist
Loyal Citizen of the Antonia Bayle
Current resident of the Willow Wood, City of Qeynos
http://veritas.everquest2guilds.com

Descendant of the Elder Winterfury Thunderwolf
<Resolution, Retired>
Barbarian Prophet of The Tribunal
Retired Citizen of Firiona Vie
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
January 30, 2005 10:50:14 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

In article <10vr98ulf8fb9f@news.supernews.com>, Bob Perez
<myfirstname@thecomdomaincalledSHADOWPIKE> wrote:
> I look forward to getting there and experiencing it, I see general chat
> about Uldaman all the time and now I'm really intrigued. Unfortunately,
> right now I'm sitting in a queue with 587 players ahead of me (estimated
> time to log in another 33 minutes). Pretty annoying, but I understand the
> problem is only on the more populous servers? Unfortunately, my wife and I
> chose this server because our son plays there so we don't want to move. Do
> you know if Blizzard provides an option to move your characters to another
> server? I might be able to convince him and his friends to move, I think
> they're all fed up with the queues.

They are apparently "evaluating" moves between servers. What that
means, I have no idea.

As I understand it, the long queues are occurring on a relatively small
number of servers that had a hardware upgrade go wrong. I'm on Argent
Dawn, which is very high population, and have never had a queue of more
than a couple minutes. For the sake of people on less healthy servers,
I hope they get the issues resolved soon.

- Damien
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
January 31, 2005 4:01:39 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Damien Neil <neild-usenet@misago.org> wrote in
news:300120051208314336%neild-usenet@misago.org:

> In article <364alsF4qbbqlU6@individual.net>, Sean Kennedy
<x@y.z> wrote:
>> Ragnaros (sp?) was supposed to be in at release as well, but I
>> don't know if he made it and no one has attempted it, or if he
>> didn't make release.
>
> I think he's in Molten Core. I've heard that Conquest has
managed to
> defeat the first sub-boss in there, but they've still got a way
to go
> to reach the end.
>
> I'm curious whether the post-Onyxia raid is in--she's supposed
to
> unlock access to someone else.
>
>
>> As much as I like WoW, and am glad they released so I could
play,
>> I think they needed about 4-6 more months of beta (in a perfect
>> world) to get more raids in, battlegrounds and hero-classes.
Then
>> this would be a moot point.
>
> It'd have been nice, but it really doesn't bother me much.
There's so
> much to do from 1-60 that they have a fair bit of time before
they need
> more high-level content.
>
> - Damien
>

Hell - I'm so far from exhausting what there is to do at low
leves and modding that I'm not even close to worried about hitting
60.


--
Arch Convoker Mairelon Snapbang
Feral Lord Bosra Snowclaw
Lanys T'vyl (Retired)

Mairelon, 15th Paladin
Silverhand

My WoW Mods: http://therealorang.com
Yes, FlexBar 1.24 is out :) 
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
January 31, 2005 6:50:09 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Bob Perez" <myfirstname@thecomdomaincalledSHADOWPIKE> wrote in
news:10vr98ulf8fb9f@news.supernews.com:

> there so we don't want to move. Do you know if Blizzard provides
an
> option to move your characters to another server? I might be able
to
> convince him and his friends to move, I think they're all fed up
with
> the queues.
>

There is talk of a one time free move in the future - but so far
nothing substantive I can point to.

--
Arch Convoker Mairelon Snapbang
Feral Lord Bosra Snowclaw
Lanys T'vyl (Retired)

Mairelon, 15th Paladin
Silverhand

My WoW Mods: http://therealorang.com
Yes, FlexBar 1.24 is out :) 
January 31, 2005 1:07:25 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Dark Tyger <darktiger@somewhere.net> writes:

> On 30 Jan 2005 14:47:48 GMT, Sean Kennedy <x@y.z> wrote:
>
> >Hairstyles, gross height adjustments and a wide variety of looks
> >on equipment of similar stats are usually enough -- I certainly
> >don't see the more subtle differences.
>
> Height adjustment in WoW would definitely be nice. I'm not sure why
> they don't offer it. They gave some line about scaling armor, but I
> just don't see how that can be that big of an issue.

It's easy enough just to scale the whole model, so if you taller
you're also wider. I think that's what EQ2 does, as well as a host of
other games. No problems with armour scaling then, just increase its
size by the same factor.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
January 31, 2005 2:43:55 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Shadow" <kitchen@fis.org.nz> wrote in message
news:IiDKd.139156$K7.9990@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> What about sound? Would you say the voices in eq2 are better than WOW? Is
> the lore as deep?

The voices in EQ2 tend to get on my nerves; the voices in WoW are more to
accent an encounter than to be the encounter, which suits me just fine. :) 
The lore is pretty deep, and when you play a race for the first time, you
get this nice introductory video which is taken straight from the current PC
action going on at that moment in your area.

> I'm calling again to see if it's available, and i just hope that the
> servers
> are accepting new players. I seem to be reading some contradictory answers
> and the actual company is on another continent so i don't really want to
> call their help line if i can avoid it.

I bought mine on Thursday evening from Electronic Boutique (went to the
physical store after seeing on www.ebgames.com that it should be available
in the stores); they had gotten in a shipment that day, so you should have a
good chance of getting a copy. I started on the Hellscream server, which is
(fairly) low population; I then yesterday tried out the Ner'zul (sp?)
server, which a friend is on, and had no trouble getting onto it as a new
player either. So far, I have a level 9 night elf druid, a level 8 undead
warlock, and a level 7 human priest on Hellscream, and a level 9 dwarf
hunter on Ner'zul (sp?). Playability is great, love the interface, grouping
(which I finally did yesterday) is fairly easy, tradeskilling is very
easy...overall, this just might pull me away from EQ altogether. Have to
reassess to decide, although it's pretty much killed my secondary EQ
account; will be unsubscribing that one fairly soon. My poor troll. :) 

--
############################
Firian
Dark Elf Necromancer of the 23rd Circle, FV
Berdache
Troll Shaman of the 22nd Stone, FV
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
January 31, 2005 2:54:43 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Charles Whitney" <cbillingsw@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:362m48F4srpdcU1@individual.net...
>
> "Firian" <G.Booth@usm.edu> wrote in message
> news:41fa9119$1@nntp.usm.edu...
>> "Shadow" <kitchen@fis.org.nz> wrote in message
>> news:o UuKd.138793$K7.82611@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
>> is better than EQ2. In EQ2, I had expected this huge range of
>> customizability, but instead, from what I've seen, you get a face that
>> looks like everybody else's face, except you can make the nose, or the
>> mouth, or the chin longer or broader...but you still look like everyone
>> else of that race. With WoW, you can actually select between several
>> facial features that look radically different from one another. Granted,
>> I just started playing WoW last night, but have a 4th level night elf
>> druid, a 3rd level human pally, and a 2nd level undead warlock so far,
>> and am amazed at the playability of the game and the beauty of the world
>> around my characters.
>
> Really? Before WoW's release one of the common complaints I had heard
> about > it was the lack of real customability of one's character. The
> argument went that you could make yourself, say, a human male, but you'd
> end up looking exactly like every other human male in the game. (Maybe it
> also included class, so a human male of one class would look distinct from
> a human male of another class, but all the human males of the same class
> looked essentially alike)
>
> Did that change? Or were the people who were reporting this problem
> wrong? Or is this new claim of yours wrong?

Sorry, perhaps I should have included 'IMHO' (but pretty much felt that if I
was saying it, it would be considered IMHO). It's my truth, how about that?
*smile* Someone else may disagree, but for me, I can select between several
different faces that look totally different from each other, not to mention
about a dozen (didn't count them, so could be wrong on the number) totally
different hairstyles (probably varies by race). I didn't play the Beta, so I
can't speak of before its release; in fact, I can't speak for the game at
all before Thursday, Jan. 27. :)  I can only give my impressions on the game
from that point on, which are that I'm far more impressed by the
customizability with WoW than I am with that of EQ2. So if my new claim is
wrong, it's not wrong for me. :) 

> And just an opinion of mine based on playing games where you can make
> customized faces, unless you change facial features like chins, noses,
> eyes into grotesque, exaggerated features, they really don't make much
> more than a slight cosmetic difference. The only thing that really
> distinguishes character facial models from one another are hairstyles.

See above about hairstyles. There are a wide variety (or at least I think
so) of hairstyles for each race, including some radical punk styles for
trolls, undead, and dwarves (at least).

--
############################
Firian
Dark Elf Necromancer of the 23rd Circle, FV
Berdache
Troll Shaman of the 22nd Stone, FV (still need to update this info for WoW)
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
February 1, 2005 12:15:30 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 11:19:17 -0800, "Bob Perez"
<myfirstname@thecomdomaincalledSHADOWPIKE> wrote:

>I understand your comment about EQ2 and grouping, that's a well-known bias
>of the EverQuest universe with upsides and downsides. I've gone both ways on
>the point, initially leaving EQ because of it and then returning to it after
>experiencing the alternative. But grinding? Oh, come on. In EQ2 I never,
>ever feel the need to grind. I spend 100% of my game time doing quests and
>*almost* incidentally killing things along the way. I can't remember ever
>feeling the need to grind monsters simply for experience. I'm sure some
>players do, but I don't see them here. WoW promotes grinding pretty openly
>because the goal in WoW has always been to level. This makes sense for the
>PvP game where levels will be mandatory, but I'm not sure what's going to
>happen to the players who hit 60 on non PvP servers. What will be left for
>them? Blizzard has always openly promoted leveling as the goal. Even in
>beta they had a contest where the winner was determined by who hit the
>highest level during the period! There's your formula for promoting
>grinding. Fortunately, the combat mechanics of WoW are so damned fun that
>grinding isn't so bad. I love playing my wife's Rogue character, it's
>clearly more fun than playing her EQ2 Rogue, big kudos to Blizzard for once
>again doing what they do best: making it fun. Don't sell that short. :p 

Has your wife solo'd the rogue poison quest at 20th lvl?

Has your paladin done his 'epic' weapon quest in a group of low 20s
lvl characters? ...if you answer yes to that one and still think the
EQ2 dungeons are better and more interesting, that would be a really
good reason for me to go out and buy EQ2.

I think you're wrong in your assessment that WoW isn't challenging.
From what I've seen, it's as challenging as you want to make it. It's
easy (too easy imo) to solo to 60 if that's what turns you on, not
even bothering with quests and just grinding mobs 1-3 levels lower
than you. That doesn't mean that the challenging content isn't out
there though. People just avoided it.

Where WoW screwed up is that there really isn't any incentive to do
the challenging stuff at lower levels. Mainly because you can level
past it so quickly if you want. EQ1 had the same problem at the end,
why go to places like Unrest, Mistmoore or ToFS if you can just grind
and level past them in a couple of days?

From what I gather reading the EQ2 posts here, EQ2 does a better job
of channeling people into the dungeons (some would say forcing you)
and that might well be a better way of doing things.

Rgds, Frank
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
February 1, 2005 5:14:14 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Frank E" <fakeaddress@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:RLH=QRdqb1K+0o59bXrn=B1j7hyS@4ax.com...

> Has your wife solo'd the rogue poison quest at 20th lvl?

Yes, she did that tower couple nights ago. That was fun big time. Having to
pickpocket the key and making her way to the chest up top was a hell of a
lot of fun, even if we did wipe to the Elite upstairs on the first try.

> Has your paladin done his 'epic' weapon quest in a group of low 20s
> lvl characters? ...if you answer yes to that one and still think the
> EQ2 dungeons are better and more interesting, that would be a really
> good reason for me to go out and buy EQ2.

I'm working on the Paladin quests now and enjoying this one too.
Additionally, my wife and I made our first entry into an instance last
night, we went into the Deadmines in search of Van Cleef. We got as far as
the Mast room with the gobbos before realizing that we weren't going to be
able to progress any further than that alone, and will be back with others
to continue it, but it was exciting and fun as hell on the way. We
dispatched many Elites along the way and it took all of our tactical
prowess, using many of the skills available to us, to get that far. We both
came away with a renewed respect for the challenge we're finally seeing.

As to your question on which dungeons and quests are "better" and "more
interesting", well you know how tough a question that is. As fun as WoW is
(and we will continue playing it, we're having way too much fun not too),
after my wife went to bed I logged back into EQ2 and got a group assembled
for another run at Everling in Nektropos Castle. Nothing I've seen in WoW
yet approaches that encounter (but then there aren't that many in EQ2 that
do, either). I know I'm still a WoW noob, though, so I'm keeping an open
mind. If I had to bet on it now, I'd guess that where I'm going to come out
on this eventually is pretty evenly balanced between the two games,
particularly as I get more experience with WoW. I believe now that I was
wrong in my initial view that there's more grinding in WoW than EQ2, I think
that was a direct reflection of my experience with the noob levels of WoW vs
the more advanced heritage quests I am doing in EQ2. It appears to me that
both games are fabulously quest driven once you get into them.

I think the quality of quests that I've seen in EQ2 are still more
interesting and complex, but again this might just be noobiness at work. Ask
me again in 10 more levels of WoW. As it stands from 1-35 in EQ2 and 1-21 in
WoW, EQ2's quests win hands down in my view.

> I think you're wrong in your assessment that WoW isn't challenging.
> From what I've seen, it's as challenging as you want to make it. It's
> easy (too easy imo) to solo to 60 if that's what turns you on, not
> even bothering with quests and just grinding mobs 1-3 levels lower
> than you. That doesn't mean that the challenging content isn't out
> there though. People just avoided it.

Here's my take on that. As always, there's a new game that begins at level
cap. In EQ1 it was 65 for the longest time (now 70), in EQ2 it's 50, and in
WoW it's 60. There are two fundamentally different games in all three:
getting to the level cap and then playing while at the level cap. Once you
get to the level cap, you no longer grind for exp, you focus on putting all
your work to use in pursuit of the high end content. The interesting thing
that I've learned from WoW is that there are a couple of different
approaches you can take to getting your player base there. WoW chose to make
it dirt simple for players to get to that level cap if they want to (as you
point out), giving players the ability to choose their difficulty setting,
if you will. EQ2 forces a lot more challenge and required discipline on the
road there, and it's always on high difficulty setting. The result is
probably a more disciplined and seasoned player force at 50 in EQ2, compared
to a more diverse group of WoW 60's, some of whom are the equal of anyone in
EQ2 but many of whom couldn't fight their way out of an EQ2 paper bag.

The other result, of course, is that EQ2 will continue the SOE tradition
that Chris Taylor describes as "beating up your players", while WoW
continues the Diablo tradition of kill-reward-kill-reward that keeps it
simple and fun. WoW earns its Blizzard heritage for an emphasis on fun, even
if it allows leaving its players less prepared for the challenges ahead.
Although I'm the kind of player who will always opt for the higher
difficulty setting, I'm very aware that the marketplace rewards those who
offer players a choice. Blizzard's game is more fun in part because players
are able to make that choice for themselves and not get "beat up" along the
road to the end game. How everyone fares at the end game will be interesting
to watch and I'll note here parenthetically someone else's comment that no
North American players have beat the dragon raid in the end game, only some
Korean guild has managed to pull it off. This could mean that the end game
is just very, very hard, or it could also mean that all those WoW players
who took the easy way to 60 are now finding that they're ill-prepared for
the serious challenges ahead. It's a fascinating game design philosophy
issue.

--
Redbeard
<Veritas>
Dwarven Mystic and Alchemist
Loyal Citizen of the Antonia Bayle
Current resident of the Willow Wood, City of Qeynos
http://veritas.everquest2guilds.com

Descendant of the Elder Winterfury Thunderwolf
<Resolution, Retired>
Barbarian Prophet of The Tribunal
Retired Citizen of Firiona Vie
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
February 1, 2005 8:24:43 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

In article <10vvvhrhlsd67d3@news.supernews.com>, Bob Perez
<myfirstname@thecomdomaincalledSHADOWPIKE> wrote:
> How everyone fares at the end game will be interesting
> to watch and I'll note here parenthetically someone else's comment that no
> North American players have beat the dragon raid in the end game, only some
> Korean guild has managed to pull it off. This could mean that the end game
> is just very, very hard, or it could also mean that all those WoW players
> who took the easy way to 60 are now finding that they're ill-prepared for
> the serious challenges ahead. It's a fascinating game design philosophy
> issue.

I believe the most serious contenders for taking down Onyxia are ex-EQ
uber guilds, so it's probably a difficult encounter rather than
inexperienced players. I'm not certain whether the difficulty comes
from a need to farm good gear off high-level instances before
attempting the raid, or whether there's an as-yet-unknown trick.

- Damien
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
February 2, 2005 12:05:57 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 14:14:14 -0800, "Bob Perez"
<myfirstname@thecomdomaincalledSHADOWPIKE> wrote:

>
>"Frank E" <fakeaddress@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:RLH=QRdqb1K+0o59bXrn=B1j7hyS@4ax.com...
>
>> Has your wife solo'd the rogue poison quest at 20th lvl?
>
>Yes, she did that tower couple nights ago. That was fun big time. Having to
>pickpocket the key and making her way to the chest up top was a hell of a
>lot of fun, even if we did wipe to the Elite upstairs on the first try.
>
>> Has your paladin done his 'epic' weapon quest in a group of low 20s
>> lvl characters? ...if you answer yes to that one and still think the
>> EQ2 dungeons are better and more interesting, that would be a really
>> good reason for me to go out and buy EQ2.
>
>I'm working on the Paladin quests now and enjoying this one too.
>Additionally, my wife and I made our first entry into an instance last
>night, we went into the Deadmines in search of Van Cleef. We got as far as
>the Mast room with the gobbos before realizing that we weren't going to be
>able to progress any further than that alone, and will be back with others
>to continue it, but it was exciting and fun as hell on the way. We
>dispatched many Elites along the way and it took all of our tactical
>prowess, using many of the skills available to us, to get that far. We both
>came away with a renewed respect for the challenge we're finally seeing.

The reason I mentioned those two quests in particular was because
doing those (w/o high level help) made me realize that there might be
more to the game than I was giving it credit for. That was the point
where I canceled my EQ account (at least for now).

>As to your question on which dungeons and quests are "better" and "more
>interesting", well you know how tough a question that is.

Yeah. I know there won't be a definitive answer to that one but I'm
curious to know what route EQ2 took. I'd orginally planned to check
out EQ2 after Christmas but I'm still having too much fun in WoW to
bother. I'm sure I will at some point though.

>I think the quality of quests that I've seen in EQ2 are still more
>interesting and complex, but again this might just be noobiness at work. Ask
>me again in 10 more levels of WoW. As it stands from 1-35 in EQ2 and 1-21 in
>WoW, EQ2's quests win hands down in my view.

The people I know that play both seem pretty evenly divided as to
which game has the better quest system. Strangely enough, even the
people that like EQ2 better concede that WoW is more 'fun'.

>> I think you're wrong in your assessment that WoW isn't challenging.
>> From what I've seen, it's as challenging as you want to make it. It's
>> easy (too easy imo) to solo to 60 if that's what turns you on, not
>> even bothering with quests and just grinding mobs 1-3 levels lower
>> than you. That doesn't mean that the challenging content isn't out
>> there though. People just avoided it.
>
>Here's my take on that. As always, there's a new game that begins at level
>cap. In EQ1 it was 65 for the longest time (now 70), in EQ2 it's 50, and in
>WoW it's 60. There are two fundamentally different games in all three:
>getting to the level cap and then playing while at the level cap. Once you
>get to the level cap, you no longer grind for exp, you focus on putting all
>your work to use in pursuit of the high end content. The interesting thing
>that I've learned from WoW is that there are a couple of different
>approaches you can take to getting your player base there. WoW chose to make
>it dirt simple for players to get to that level cap if they want to (as you
>point out), giving players the ability to choose their difficulty setting,
>if you will. EQ2 forces a lot more challenge and required discipline on the
>road there, and it's always on high difficulty setting. The result is
>probably a more disciplined and seasoned player force at 50 in EQ2, compared
>to a more diverse group of WoW 60's, some of whom are the equal of anyone in
>EQ2 but many of whom couldn't fight their way out of an EQ2 paper bag.

As a friend of mine put it; 'Any idiot can get to level 60 in WoW, and
many have'. If anyone needs proof of that statement, I point them to
the official WoW forums <g>.

I guess that's true for any MMORPG but Blizzard does seem to have
taken it to the extreme. Well, if nothing else it should make for some
amusing pick-up groups if you approach them with the right frame of
mind (preferably while drunk <g>). I tend to group with friends I've
known since EQ but I might actually go out of my way to join some high
end pickup groups in WoW just for the entertainment value.

Rgds, Frank
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
February 2, 2005 5:19:24 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Firian" <G.Booth@usm.edu> wrote in message news:41fe6e60$1@nntp.usm.edu...
> "Shadow" <kitchen@fis.org.nz> wrote in message
> news:IiDKd.139156$K7.9990@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> >
> > What about sound? Would you say the voices in eq2 are better than WOW?
Is
> > the lore as deep?
>
> The voices in EQ2 tend to get on my nerves; the voices in WoW are more to
> accent an encounter than to be the encounter, which suits me just fine. :) 
> The lore is pretty deep, and when you play a race for the first time, you
> get this nice introductory video which is taken straight from the current
PC
> action going on at that moment in your area.

I have trouble hearing the voices in WoW and i can't see why from the
controls. The eq2 ones can be disabled, although i tend to leave it on in
town, just for the fun of hearing one of the qeynos inhabitants complain as
a member of the 'evil' races walks past. The introductory video is
impressive and seems to imply to me that flight within the game might be
feasible; after all, you are seeing a realtime fly through. I kind of wish
I'd played horizons, if only for the flying.
>
> > I'm calling again to see if it's available, and i just hope that the
> > servers
> > are accepting new players. I seem to be reading some contradictory
answers
> > and the actual company is on another continent so i don't really want to
> > call their help line if i can avoid it.
>
> I bought mine on Thursday evening from Electronic Boutique (went to the
> physical store after seeing on www.ebgames.com that it should be available
> in the stores); they had gotten in a shipment that day, so you should have
a
> good chance of getting a copy. I started on the Hellscream server, which
is
> (fairly) low population; I then yesterday tried out the Ner'zul (sp?)
> server, which a friend is on, and had no trouble getting onto it as a new
> player either. So far, I have a level 9 night elf druid, a level 8 undead
> warlock, and a level 7 human priest on Hellscream, and a level 9 dwarf
> hunter on Ner'zul (sp?). Playability is great, love the interface,
grouping
> (which I finally did yesterday) is fairly easy, tradeskilling is very
> easy...overall, this just might pull me away from EQ altogether. Have to
> reassess to decide, although it's pretty much killed my secondary EQ
> account; will be unsubscribing that one fairly soon. My poor troll. :) 


The local EB has effectively moved over console only. there's a few shelves
of pc games, which contained a copy of vellious amongst other things. The
staff hadn't heard of it and didn't care. I haven't had enough time to
assess WoW and I'm going to run out of my month's prescrition before things
ease up, so I hope I like it as much as you do. I'm definitely going to
start a character of each of the races to check out the differences.

I don't like the way the eq2 crafting minigame thinks you have failed to
press the right key even when you have sometimes. I don't like the way the
forge is so lethal that you see messages all the time saying it has killed
someone. The slowness of creating everything, even something that is grey to
you, is wearying me. I'm hoping WoW is better, and that eq2 finds a way to
make tradeskills more interesting.

WoW has wild imagination in it's models, but it's hard to beat the sight of
luclin crushed and burning endlessly across the sky. On the other hand,
lagging to the point where you run in the water, or running to safety only
to die as you negotiate the "which zone would you like today menu", or
drowning because as a dwarf you sometimes zone underwater is not much fun
(don't ask me why they don't make the emptiest zone the default, and a right
click needed if you want to specify similar to the inn rooms).

It's interesting that eq2 seems to have copied the rest state idea of WoW.
Frankly, within the boundaries of law, i hope they pillage each others
ideas. the cross fertilisation can only benefit the players.

Ralph Nebbish 20 pal 20 scholar who's thoroughly sick of the sight of iron
gual dye subcombines.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
February 2, 2005 5:26:10 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

<patrik@nordebo.com> wrote in message
news:87pszmge5u.fsf@pluto.elizium.org...
> Dark Tyger <darktiger@somewhere.net> writes:
>
> > On 30 Jan 2005 14:47:48 GMT, Sean Kennedy <x@y.z> wrote:
> >
> > >Hairstyles, gross height adjustments and a wide variety of looks
> > >on equipment of similar stats are usually enough -- I certainly
> > >don't see the more subtle differences.
> >
> > Height adjustment in WoW would definitely be nice. I'm not sure why
> > they don't offer it. They gave some line about scaling armor, but I
> > just don't see how that can be that big of an issue.
>
> It's easy enough just to scale the whole model, so if you taller
> you're also wider. I think that's what EQ2 does, as well as a host of
> other games. No problems with armour scaling then, just increase its
> size by the same factor.

I used to play a game called "Real Life" which had the most incredibly
detailled character generation (human only) i have ever seen.I hope one day
that games like eq2 have that variability of form, so that you can be
overweight, or black, or have bad teeth for that matter. I like the way you
can often have aged characters now, or ones with piercings, but the lack of
departure from the anglo human model is kind of odd considering how popular
these games are internationally.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
February 2, 2005 5:37:51 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Bob Perez" <myfirstname@thecomdomaincalledSHADOWPIKE> wrote in
news:10vvvhrhlsd67d3@news.supernews.com:

> [no] North American players have beat the dragon raid in the end game,
> only
> some Korean guild has managed to pull it off. This could mean that the
> end game is just very, very hard, or it could also mean that all those
> WoW players who took the easy way to 60 are now finding that they're
> ill-prepared for the serious challenges ahead. It's a fascinating game
> design philosophy issue.
>
>

Since Conquest is the nearest guild I have heard of (NA guild) I'd say it
must be just hard. Of course, a bunch of them just received suspensions
for exploiting LoS issues in Molten Core and debate rages over whether
they were justified. Deja vu all over again.

--
Arch Convoker Mairelon Snapbang
Feral Lord Bosra Snowclaw
Lanys T'vyl (Retired)

Mairelon, 15th Paladin
Silverhand

My WoW Mods: http://therealorang.com
Yes, FlexBar 1.24 is out :) 
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
February 2, 2005 6:27:26 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Sean Kennedy <x@y.z> wrote in news:Xns95F1431D919E6therealorangyahoocom@
130.133.1.4:

> "Bob Perez" <myfirstname@thecomdomaincalledSHADOWPIKE> wrote in
> news:10vvvhrhlsd67d3@news.supernews.com:
>
>> [no] North American players have beat the dragon raid in the end game,
>> only some Korean guild has managed to pull it off. This could mean
that
>> the end game is just very, very hard, or it could also mean that all
>> those WoW players who took the easy way to 60 are now finding that
>> they're ill-prepared for the serious challenges ahead. It's a
>> fascinating game design philosophy issue.
>>
>>
>
> Since Conquest is the nearest guild I have heard of (NA guild) I'd say
it
> must be just hard. Of course, a bunch of them just received
suspensions
> for exploiting LoS issues in Molten Core and debate rages over whether
> they were justified. Deja vu all over again.
>

Hmm, isn't that the same guild that ran into such problems in sleepers
lair in EQ?

--
On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons

On Steamfont in <Insanity Plea>
Graeme, 23 Dwarven Mystic, 20 Sage
Aviv, 12 Gnome Brawler, 14 Craftsman
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
February 2, 2005 9:15:28 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Graeme Faelban <RichardRapier@netscape.net> wrote in
news:Xns95F156088AA57richardrapiernetscap@130.133.1.4:

> Hmm, isn't that the same guild that ran into such problems in sleepers
> lair in EQ?
>

Yup - hence the Yogi reference

--
Arch Convoker Mairelon Snapbang
Feral Lord Bosra Snowclaw
Lanys T'vyl (Retired)

Mairelon, 15th Paladin
Silverhand

My WoW Mods: http://therealorang.com
Yes, FlexBar 1.24 is out :) 
February 3, 2005 2:59:31 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Shadow" <kitchen@fis.org.nz> writes:

> I used to play a game called "Real Life" which had the most incredibly
> detailled character generation (human only) i have ever seen.I hope one day
> that games like eq2 have that variability of form, so that you can be
> overweight, or black, or have bad teeth for that matter. I like the way you
> can often have aged characters now, or ones with piercings, but the lack of
> departure from the anglo human model is kind of odd considering how popular
> these games are internationally.

You might want to try Second Life. It's not much of a game per se
(though apparently some people build games in it), but the character
customisation possibilities are endless. It's great fun (the
character customisation bit, that is, I didn't get beyond that), and
has a free trial (and only costs $9.95US for unlimited access if you
skip the extras).
!