Swiftech MC462 problems

[Guest]

I just received my Swiftech MC462 with Sunon 80mm fan
(KD1208PTB2) from Coolerguys.

This is my system:
* AMD Athlon Thunderbird 1.2Ghz 266 FSB
* ArticSilver 2 Compound
* Enermax Whisper 330W Power Supply EG351P-VE(FC)
* Crucial 512M PC133 DRAM CAS2
* Asus A7V133
* IBM Deskstar 45GB 7200RPM
* 3Com 3C905TX NIC
* Elsa Gladiac Geforce2 GTS 32M DDR
* Black Hydraulic Case
* Black floppy drive
* Black IBM keyboard
* Creative Soundblaster Live X-Gamer
* Ricoh 9120A CDRW/DVD Combo Drive
* Front and rear Panaflow case fans

I have overclocked my system to 1400Mhz (10x multiplier, 140Mhz FSB). After reading the article on Overclockers.com about CPU markings today I see that I have one of the "better" processors with "AXIA" marking.

The problem is however, that the Swiftech heat sink together with the Sunon fan is not adequately cooling the CPU. Motherboard Monitor indicates that the temperature between 54-57 degrees. My Alpha PAL with Sanyo Denki cooled my system to about 52-53 degrees.

I don't get it. Any thoughts? I really don't want to have to use a monster Delta fan. The Sunon is relatively quiet at 33dba moving 35 CFM of Air.

 

[TheSandman]

Got a few questions are you sure that the fan is running and did you clean and reaply the thurmal compound for the cpu, and are you sure that you did not use to much. Also for the few more cfm that the delta provides over the 80mm sunon will probably have very little impact.

SANDMAN

 

[Guest]

I did not clean the CPU when I received it. It did have a slight blue film over it. I applied a very thin layer of Arctic Silver II over that. The fan is definitely working.

 

[TheSandman]

Well the only other thing that I can think of but dont believe that it is though, is the heatsink sitting on the cpu flat making full contact with the core?

SANDMAN

 

[dryfly]

You are right, you have a serious problem. I have the same mobo and a 1GHz Tbird with a Cooler Master HSF unit. Tom's write up (the CPU cooler review) says that my unit should be in the low 40 degree area, which it is (according to the VIA software that comes with the mobo). Occationally the temp rises to around 48 degrees C. I think that the heat sink unit has not been put on correctly and since I am not overclocking, I feel OK with my set up. Note my CPU temp occationally also drops to as low as 26 or 27 degees C when not under load.

However, Tom says that your cooler should be somewhere in the low 30 degree C range. SO you do have some kind of a major problem. Check your fan, connections, and seating of the heat sink on the CPU core, as others have suggested. I just wanted to let you know that you should have a much lower temp than you actually do. I also realize you are running a hotter CPU, but you should be getting in the 30's degrees C at least.

Sorry I can't be of more help.

 

[Guest]

OK. Just totally disassembled the heatsink and properly cleaned my CPU off with alcohol. I then reapplied a micro-thin layer of Arctic Silver II to the core and carefully installed the Swiftech MC462 making sure that it was in total contact with the core. Restarted the machine. Temperature in BIOS read 57 degrees!

Just for kicks, took it off and reinstalled my Alpha PAL 6035 with Sanyo Denki. Temperature reads 51 degrees!

The only think I can imagine is that the Sunon fan is not powerful enough. I'm not prepared to go for the Delta as it's too loud.

Arghhh!

 

[ws6]

hey i didn't see the swiftech on thier page anywhere.

-----------
Chris
ws6@kc.rr.com

 

[bw37]

Is the MC462 designed for the 80mm fan or is that a special? I can't tell the size of the standard fan from Tom's review or elsewhere. There's really very little useful information on the cooler fans in Kyro's review. If you could get actual performance curves of the fans from the manufacturers, AND know the rpm they're running at in the application, THEN you could tell which fan was needed for which cooler.

You may have just have a fan that's mismatched to the job. Even if you know it, CFM is only 1/2 of the equation. It also must be able to produce adequate flow at the required pressure drop. The best analogy I can come up with is a big, low voltage battery with lots of current capacity (CFM) that doesn't have enough voltage to overcome the system resistance (pressure drop).

One thing you might try is to put the fan from your Alpha on the Swiftech. I'd work up to that slowly, just in case the Alpha fan is even worse than the Sunon. If that helps, at least you know it's a fan problem. You could also try reversing airflow direction just for kicks. It seems some people get better results one way, others not. Is the airflow direction the same for both coolers?

Lastly, have you tried it with the case open? This would test if something about the airflow in the case is supplying warmer air to the MC462 than the Alpha (especially if their airflow direction is opposite). Also this would check if the fan inlet (outlet?) is too close to the case so the case is blocking the flow.

Don't know if any of this really applies to your exact problem, but it's my $.02 anyway.

BW

the more I learn, the less I'm sure I know...

 

[Guest]

Thanks for the feedback. With the case open, the temperature drops by about 4 degrees. Clearly the enhanced airflow helps.

Here is the airflow curve for the delta and the Sunon:
http://www.delta.com.tw/products/dcfans/pdf/FFB8038.pdf
http://www.sunon.com/fan/dc8025/kd1208ptb2-6(oc).htm

 

[bw37]

If you draw the performance curve of the Sunon KD1208PTB2 on the Delta chart, you'll see that it has WAY less performance. If the Delta has been correctly sized for the application on the Swiftech cooler, lets assume it's performing at approximately 40+ CFM and .25+ in-H2O pressure drop (the plateau on the curve). You need to find a fan that can do at least that much.

In searching, the first thing to look at might be the rated power consumption at 12V. That will fairly closely relate to the fan's ability to move air against resistance. The volts~ pressure drop and current~airflow analogy again applies. Note that the Delta is rated at about 7 watts (I'm assuming the FFB0812SHE = 12V @ 4900 RPM) while the Sunon is only about 3 watts (assuming the 12V is similar to the equivalent 24V I find on their /tw site). So in looking for a Sunon fan with this power consumption, I find it only in their 120mm fans, nothing smaller, and guess what: they're getting almost as noisy as the Delta :frown: . So you'd have to make up a "funnel shaped adaptor" as discussed in other threads here. For similar fan designs (axial in this case), I'm afraid power is going to be somewhat proportional noise, but larger fans should at least seem somewhat quieter for the same power due to lower frequency noise generation.

Sunon does have a good technical fan sizing page that explains what I'm trying to, better than I can here:<A HREF="http://www.sunon.com.tw/index_en.htm" target="_new">http://www.sunon.com.tw/index_en.htm</A>. You may have to look on other fan supplier sites to see if any of them have anything that meets your needs better. I'd start with Sanyo Denki. They seem to be among the quietest with good performance.

Lastly, did you try yet to cobble the fan from the Alpha to the Swiftech. Theoretically, if the Swiftech heatsink is a superior design, the same airflow should cool better. Again, however, if the pressure drop of the Swiftech is too high for the Alpha fan, all bets are off.

Good luck!, and report back, I'm sure there are others interested in your results.

BW

the more I learn, the less I'm sure I know...

 

[Guest]

OK guys... I also have the MC462. I installed it on Monday with Artic Silver 2 compound. It is the best thing that has ever happened in my computer life. The highest temp I've seen yet is 37C! My idle is 26C. This hsf is AWESOME!

If you are having problems make sure that you're hsf isn't hitting the socket somewhere. The springloaded screws make it tough to tell.

I think that the MC462 is incredible. I recommend it!

KT7, TBird 800@1008, 9x112
Swiftech MC462

 

[Guest]

Whatever on the "high tech" fan explanation... I'm running the SUNON FAN! It is 42cfm, not the 68cfm Delta that normally ships with the MC462. I can't wait for the Delta to get here but the Sunon fan works just fine with this hsf. I can't imagine how much cooler this setup can get. It is only 2 degrees warmer than my system temp! And, It's quiet. (Although I've been told that's just because of the larger diameter... my 60mm Delta was a screamer!)

KT7, TBird 800@1008, 9x112
Swiftech MC462

 

[bw37]

MethylONE: I'm in no way knocking the Swiftech MC462. I've seem only positive reviews, but all the ones I've seem are with the Delta fan. Glad to hear your's is working with your 42CFM Sunon fan. I still believe that egrossman's trouble is a lack of static pressure cabability from his 35CFM Sunon fan. Fan CFM ratings are "free air measurements, ie. 0 static pressure. On a heatsink, there is at least some static pressure, more or less depending on the design. Sorry if I went all "techy" on you, but I wanted to make a point that CFM alone doesn't adequately describe a fan's performance. If you DO look at the performance charts referenced in egrossmans post, you'll see what I mean.

BW

PS: Interestingly, I tried to put a more powerful Sunon fan on my puny Cooler Master DP5-5H53 HSF, supposedly taking it from 11.65 CFM (rating on the CoolerMaster spec sheet) to 28 CFM (rating on the fan alone). Result: unmeasurable temp change, significant noise increase. So back to the original fan I went. Ya win some ya lose some I guess.

the more I learn, the less I'm sure I know...

 

[Guest]

I wouldn't put anything else but delta on a mc462, that is like buying a porche and putting a bug engine in it.

 

[Guest]

EVERYONE! New news... There is a problem with the Swiftech MC462! Not mine, mine works perfectly. The base (the copper plate) is not milled properly on all of the heatsinks. This causes the heatsink to sit "up" off of the cpu. It is the section that is "cut-out" of the sink. You can easily see it when you look at the copper. Your sinks (those of you with problems) are probably hitting the socket near that milled area. Check it out. Mill your sink or send it back. Or... file down your socket.

KT7, TBird 800@1008, 9x112
Swiftech MC462

 

[Guest]

Please read my post about the milling. I think it is your problem. Your heatsink is hitting your CPU socket.

KT7, TBird 800@1008, 9x112
Swiftech MC462

 

[bw37]

"bug engine in a porsche" : As an ex-mechanic that worked on both, I've seen it done, and it IS sad!

the more I learn, the less I'm sure I know...

 

[Guest]

lol

 

[Guest]

How can I tell if the MC462 is milled properly? Is a 42.5CFM Sunon fan going to make THAT much difference over a the Sunon 35CFM fan that I have? My CPU temperature in MM5 was reading as high as 57 degrees with this expensive heatsink. For the time being I'm using my Alpha PAL 6035 and Sanyo Denki and having to "live" with an idle temperature in the neighborhoud of 51 degrees.

P.S. I am using an Asus A7V133 motherboard and they generally seem to report higher temperatures that others...

 

[Guest]

Look to see. The heatsink should not be touching the socket (white plastic).

 

[bw37]

egrossman: If MethylONE is right, the heatsink is sitting on the socket instead of your CPU core. That is a MUCH simpler explanation or your problem with the MC462 than my fan one. If it's true, your Sunon fan might just work (albeit not as well as the Delta, but you expected that I assume). I think I'd just return the MC462 to wherever you bought it. If this is a known problem, they (and Swiftech) should be glad you didn't fry your t-bird and want them to compensate you for it. I'd say they should pay all shipping, etc. to get you a good one. This is a pretty big screw-up by somebody.
MethylONE stop here!

You should be able to tell if it's sitting squarely on the core by going through the whole installation process again and then carefully removing it and looking closely at the pattern made in the layer of Arctic Silver (AS). Before you remove it, try to see if you can get a piece of paper under the heatsink all the way around, especially on the side nearest the close edge of the board.

Once you remove it, look at the pattern on the core and base of the HSF. For a correct fit, the pattern (witness mark) should be centered on the core, and the mark left in the AS on the base of the HSF should ideally be a nice, even rectangle that's essentially transparent. You might even be able to see the reverse image of the "Athlon" text. If it's interferring with the socket, the AS will be thicker on the side that's interferring. If it'd really bad, you might still see the surface of the AS just as you applied it. This would indicate you have a defective HSF.

If your ambitious, or can't wait to get a replacement, read on. Sorry if this is stuff you already know, but I think it's better to be clear.

If you're up to some file work, I think you could fix it yourself. Most of the large heatsinks overhang beyond the processor package/chip. Some parts of the socket are taller than the core surface (probably different on each board/socket type). To make the hsf seat fully on the core, part of the bottom of the heatsink is relieved to clear the socket without touching it. The relief is either part of the extrusion shape (solid AL heatsinks) or it is machined (milled) away from a solid flat surface as yours should be. If this relief is not deep enough or not wide enough, the HSF will sit on the socket and not squarely on the core. This is a VERY bad thing. The whole point of those pink pads, Arctic Silver, etc, is to prevent even tiny air gaps. Sitting at an angle would cause a big airgap and could easily cook your CPU.

The picture here: <A HREF="http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/01q1/010306/cooler-13.html" target="_new">http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/01q1/010306/cooler-13.html</A> of the MC462 shows the relief on the left side. Other hsf's reviewed in the article show the typical relief better <A HREF="http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/01q1/010306/cooler-07.html" target="_new">http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/01q1/010306/cooler-07.html</A> Note the blue part on the left side of the base.

The picture on this page <A HREF="http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/01q1/010306/cooler-14.html" target="_new">http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/01q1/010306/cooler-14.html</A> shows the 462 on the CPU, showing good clearance to the socket. I think this is the side requiring the relief. If you remove your mobo, and install the HSF outside the case so you can clearly see it, you should be able to put at least a few thicknesses of paper between the socket and the copper base of the hsf, especially on this side, but probably all the way around, except where the little rubber pads are. If you can't, you need to either get handy with a file, or take it to a machine shop and have them remove some material on that side.

I really have no idea how much to remove, but the fact that it cooled at all makes me think it won't take too much, maybe .030" to .050" would be enough, hard to guess. The machine shop option might be more expensive than you want, but if you know somebody in that business, they could easily do it. Whatever you do, make sure you don't nick the area of the base that sits on the core. That's the part that some guys lap to a mirror finish, just to get optimum contact to the core. I think I'd tape it over with a couple layers of masking tape to protect it, whether you file it or get it machined.

Once you get it to fit properly, I'd give the Sunon fan one more chance. It might just do the job.

Good luck either way.

BW

the more I learn, the less I'm sure I know...

 

[bw37]

Just a quick one, really.
Check out the following:
<A HREF="http://www.athlonmb.com/#News-1452" target="_new">http://www.athlonmb.com/#News-1452</A>

It discusses issues with the ASUS A7M266 board and the MC462, but maybe your A7V133 is similarly afflicted, who knows.

If you follow the links in that page, you'll get to the AMD recommendations on heatsink design, etc. Good drawings of socket A and heatsink base dimensions, including the size and depth of the relief to clear the socket. That should allow you to just measure your 462 to see if it is out of spec.

Hope this helps.

BW

the more I learn, the less I'm sure I know...

 

[Guest]

bw37 - you have done a very good job of explaining what I didn't.

I can tell you that the improperly "milled" section is obvious. It is a notch that is about a half inch wide at the top of the base of the copper plate. If you flip the MC462 over and look at the CPU contact area you see a notch at the top. This notch is to provide clearance for the raised part of the cpu socket. On the afflicted MC462s, the notch doesn't quite give enough room. If you mount the MC462 to the Mobo while it is out of the case you can actually see the contact between the base plate and the cpu socket.

Oh, and bw37... it seems as though you haven't seen one of these MC462s yet. They are HUGE! Like 4" across and deep! Much wider than the socket, but fits on KT7...

KT7, TBird 800@1008, 9x112
Swiftech MC462

 

[Guest]

bw... another note. The picture you show is the opposite side of the problem area. (The last link...) The side in the picture has almost no overhang, likely to give room to the caps on the Abit boards.

Also, bw, I am not afraid of tech-speak, I am a chemist and an audio geek. I just think that the simpler the explanation the better. I believe that your fan explanation was excellent but it led the reader to believe that the differences in fans make night and day differences in the hsf performance - they do not.

KT7, TBird 800@1008, 9x112
Swiftech MC462

 

[bw37]

MethylONE, I really hope you're input got this problem licked. If in fact lack of contact with the core is the cause here, thesandman gets the nod for the first right answer without specifics.

Since the original poster was still having problems, I looked for the next possibility. I was also trying to make a point that CFM is not the only measure of fan performance. I'm an ME, and somewhere back in the depths of my past, I learned ALL about fans. Most of it's also long since forgotten of course .

You're right, I haven't seen an MC462 (I have no need of one), but was inferring from the ones I'd seen about the relief/notch on the side overhanging the clamping side of the socket.

Thanks for your input! The point is to help out, and you did!

BW

the more I learn, the less I'm sure I know...