A rebuttal to the cooler roundup - biased?

[Guest]

I was rather skeptical as to how one could do a testing of such massive number of coolers in a relatively short time.. and my worries have surfaced now. Not only that, the whole article seems to put down Zalman coolers more than enough, going so far as to put misinformation. Here is a copy of the e-mail I sent to the author.

--Start--

Hello!

I came across your cooler benchmark today, and I'm rather disappointed by the results posted. First things first, I have connections to Zalman Tech's labs, and I was involved in decisions regarding shipping sample products to review sites, including yours. Therefore, I may be partial to the company. However, I would have to question as to why the article seem to virtually dismiss Zalman products as 'shoddy' in general, going so far as to misinform the readers.

For one, I doubt your testing methodology was correct. Your benchmark shows Swifttech product showing at an incredible result of 30C while Zalman's best goes for 44C, but this does not correlate with some other benchmarks I've seen. FrostyTech, with their synthetic testing method, for one. http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.cfm?articleid=680&page=8 They are only around 1 1/2 degrees better in the 'small block' test, which should be analogous to today's flip-chip design. In this, Zalman products hold up very well, not a middle-of-the-road performer. On a related note, testing from Tokyo University put Zalman's CNPS3100 on top. http://www.zalman.co.kr/news/20010514.htm

I do believe the problem stems from the fact that the location of the temperature probe, which is inevitably externally attached because of using SocketA, would produce inconsistent results. A certain wind turbulence could throw off the results substantially. No matter how good a Lab you used may be, bad testbed / methodology would just ruin it.

Also, the noise level measuring leaves something to be desired. Zalman coolers are nowhere near 46dB you're quoting, as far as recent testing at Zalman labs are concerned. Then again, other coolers were measured to be much higher, too. It seems that your results are somewhat 15dB farther off in general. It seems that you did not remove other noise generating factors such as conventional power supplies and hard disks that interfere with measurements. Again, I'm suspecting bad testbed here. What's more, you failed to note what noise level it is WITHOUT a cooler/fan attachment. Casually noting in dB levels is far from being accurate and contains less meaning. Did you know, that adding two noise sources do not yield a linear increase in dB level because dB is a logarithmic scale? With a separate sound source other than the cooler/fan, you cannot accurately compare the noise.

Speaking of noise levels, you should've provided the noiseless mode of the Zalman coolers, too, if you were so concerned about noise level insofar as to test the levels separately.

And, it seems strange that you mentioned the fans on Zalman coolers to be 'no name'. Zalman ships its name-branded fans with the heatsink, so you should've mentioned it as Zalman, like what you did with GlobalWin. Depending on the model, some fans are OEM'ed from Adda or Sunon, so you could've asked Zalman directly for this information if you were going to make a chart on the fan names like that.

"We were somewhat surprised to discover that Zalman, a company based in South Korea, uses a PC case fan from the People's Republic of China. This continues the claim of passive cooling ad absurdum. The fan is included with the models sporting fan-shaped heat sinks. "

I have no idea why you should dismiss Chinese fans so easily here, though. Unless you have a good proof that PRC fans have a substantial problem in performance or lifespan, you should post it along with the claim. Otherwise, it's just wrong and should be removed.

It's also ridiculous that you devoted a whole page to 'Zalman Coolers: Poor Manufacturing Quality'. You are claiming that the fan is of 'low' quality, yet it gives off the impression that the whole package in general is of poor quality, which is quite contrary to truth. Have you taken a careful look at the milling on the bottom of the heatsink? Did you not notice how the fan bracket is made so that it won't cut your finger when installing, etc.

That's not all.

"One thing that all the Zalman coolers have in common is a chintzy-looking CPU clamp, which proves to be not very durable. Not only that, but an incorrectly designed spring keeps this cooler from pressing down firmly enough. To add insult to injury, the burrs on the CPU clamp weren't shaved off properly. The result? Very sharp edges and the inevitable injury. "

Really? I had no such problems with the clamp my CNPS3100-G. Is it so 'undurable' to you? I never saw it break. The pressure is firm enough to hold down the CPU, contrary to your claims. If you really want to prove that it's not enough, get a force measurement unit and check if it's under AMD's recommended parameters. It's not 'incorrect', as it should fit a normal socket fine without installation troubles as it is designed to be so. It also puts down the force in a single-contact manner, which should be suitable to today's small core CPUs in contrast to dual-contact type, which shipped with old versions of Alpha PAL6035, which is better for flat ceramic surface old CPUs had. My clamp also did not have sharp edges. And it's something I bought for full price in retail!

You also have mis-information on the Zalman products' introduction as well. CNPS3100 is NOT a Cu-Au alloy; it's made of pure copper. CNPS3100-G does NOT have 0.3mm thick gold coating, as the FINS THEMSELVES are 0.3mm thick. you could've used a micrometer to check that yourself, or caculate the thickness by measuring the base that stems off the fins, then dividing by number of fins.

All in all, it's a very disappointing and misleading information that I normally don't expect from a 'respectable' site like Tom's Hardware Guide. I hope you have a very good explanation for this, for you'd need an apology to the readers as well as Zalman's executives unless you do.

Wesley Chung / WDSoft.com (http://www.wdsoft.com)
Order/Support Assistance for Zalman Tech.

--End--

 

[peteb]

I'd have to say this looks like a fair comment by Wesley...

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[Guest]

Looking at the FrostyTech review, the 462-A in the Large Die test whops the Zalman by over 13C. So like anything else take it with a grain of salt (like Amd/Intel , look at the benches that support your side...). Plus these are synthetic test, not test done on real cpu/mobo setup, so then again take it with a grain of salt.

Maybe part of Tom's beef is the fact the Zalman tries to pass the HS off as a Passive system. I have yet seen anyone not use a fan, or recommend using it without a fan. There goes the whole selling point of Zalman Doesn't it?

But I agree with the noise/ quaility issues. I'm sure the test system sits in the open with not cover/case to help muffle the noise. Also, all reviews on the quaility of Zalman I read show it to be top notch...

Also, Tom's can get a burr up it's A** and just needs to lay into something - the Orbs in the last HSF reveiw it had, or it's constant diging at Intel after the 1.13 fiasco when !ntel wouldn't send Tom another chip. Like I said, take it with a grain of salt....

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[Guest]

Well, you see, the Large Die test doesn't make sense in today's flip-chip CPUs, where a small core less than a thumbnail is all what's heating up... it's more correct to see the small die test. Why would FrostyTech rank the coolers with small die test instead of large die?

BTW, you can use Zalman coolers without a fan on Cyrix chips (yeah, I know, but OEMs have a bit of liking for it) and.. 5V mode (a.k.a. noiseless mode) is good for non-overclocked system. Zalman does recommend 12V mode for overclockers.

To accomodate the overclocker's tastes, though, they are planning to make a specific version that doesn't care about noise and have a very powerful fan on it.

 

[Bud]

Sounds like sour grapes to me. I'm glad as hell that at Tom's we get REAL LIFE benchies.
Not, "in the lab" this, or "synthetic" that, or "should be analogous to…today's flip chip",
Etc, …etc….Your post sucked….lol.

And that was my first flame….lol.

If anything, I would have liked to see more US heatsinks in the review though, but
I have great confidence in Tom's benchies. Whereas I have little confidence in your,
Heh-hem, bi-partisan thoughts on Zalman.

And as for electronics made in China….THEY SUCK!
To date, every Chinese product I've bought sucked royaly. In fact, I took the
GeForce PRO by EVGA, ur whatever that crapy China company was, back to the vendor
and got "most" of my money back!! That card sucked so bad, no matter what drivers
I used!! Even my old Asus GeForce 256 was kicking it's butt, lol.

As for me, I'll NEVER buy ANYTHING made in China OR by Zalman, thanks to you.



I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.

 

[jg38141]

Actually the reviews on heat sinks here rarely match even real world reviews of other reputable companies. And Frank V. the guy that does the reviews is VERY biased. For example the orbs. Now I also dislike them, but he made a big fuss over how poorly they are designed yadda yadda, but in all his tests they performed dead center or better and were some of the quiter heat sinks out there. Yet he praised some heatsinks that obviously underperformed the orbs. Why? Who knows, but the fact is, that Zalman coolers are fair but not great and a bit overpriced, but they look cool. They aren't that bad though. And frank needs to drop the bias and just show us the marks and report on them. We can make our own conclusions just fine.

My Jesus is whiter than your Jesus.

 

[Bud]

Jeez that was fast, I just got back to my mail box and already a reply. Well when you
Say Frank V. is "VERY" biased….it's YOUR opinion….but I'll take your word for it.
But to that end, every person on the planet is biased. You can't get away from that.
Yes, I agree that the benchies are what's important. I'm a big boy and can read the
numbers for myself. But the comments are opinions and I understand that.

My take in the Zalman comments was that it was a disappointment, considering it's
an obviously radical new design. Center of the road?….that's not so good, in my opinion.
I would have said the same thing as the reviewer.

Am I going to rush out to by radical new design that is middle of the road?
"FAIR"? "NOT GREAT"? "A BIT OVER PRICED"? …not hardly. Lol, listen to
your own words, hehehe.

Are the bencies flawed (like this guy says) because of external heat probe??
….not if all the test candidates had the same limitations! And that's the rub!

I want to know which HSF is better, and see the comparison. I know full well that the
Real World (as opposed to lab this, or that) will have variances in the absolute
of it all. But HSF A vs HSF B under same conditions is all I need to know, to know
that Zalman is (in your words), "FAIR" "NOT GREAT" "A BIT OVER PRICED".

Ya…run out and get it, lololol








I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.

 

[jg38141]

I don't want the things. But that's not the point. They may not be so great and I'm fine with that, it's just when a reviewer outright states so much bias that I find the benchmarks less believable. They are probobly correct, I doubt he would change anything, but that bias adds a bit of doubt as to who he's pulling for and who does better. I just want him to state strengths and weaknesses and numbers. That's all. Or just write a seperate article called "My oppinion on the Zalman coolers not neccessarily supported by the facts"

My Jesus is whiter than your Jesus.

 

[Bud]

“I don't want the things. But that's not the point.”
Ah, but that IS the point. And neither does anyone else who saw 15 other BETTER HSF combos.

“...when a reviewer outright states so much bias that I find the benchmarks less believable.”
So much bias?? But you yourself had harsher words for salman than the reviewer did.
Are you saying he messaged the numbers because he had a grudge against Samon hsf??? That's pretty serious man....
Got some evidence of that??

“ I just want him to state strengths and weaknesses and numbers. That's all.”
That’s you...but I like the commentary...That doesn’t mean I have to agree with it.
Like I said, I’m a big boy and I don’t have any problem discerning reviewer opinion
from cold hard benchmarks.

“....opinion on the Zalman coolers not necessarily supported by the facts"
What was the harshest thing he said?? I don't even remember...poor construction?
or something like that?? Hey If that’s his opinion then that’s his opinion. And
his opinion is probably better than most, don't you think? I mean He’s actually
got the thing in his hand!!....do you have one???

When you get one...give us YOUR opinion on the design and construction.

HE'S GOT ONE...THAT'S A FACT

And by the way....your Jesus.....isn’t



I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by bud on 05/23/01 10:02 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[Guest]

I search and search but couldn't find it. I thought Frosty had posted that the Large Die was comparable to a T-bird core. I could find anything to back it up so I guess I imagined it.

I would like to see what a Zalman HS could do if it was made to actually mount a fan. By that I mean - make it so it has a shroud and a mount for fan over top of it, instead of the Jerry rigged thing they have now to use a fan. Looks like it would do very well.


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[Guest]

I have the same problem with Tom's reveiws. Some contain so much bias or unwarranted slamming, the Orbs in the last reveiw, that it's really takes away from the results or their conclusions/recommendations.


<font color=blue>The #1 reason to upgrade your PC - to run faster benchmarks...</font color=blue>

 

[Guest]

Actually, it seems that the Large Block is comparable to the old PGA Celeron, which had a heatspreader on, and the Small Block is comparable to a flipchip CPU that has silicon top like t-bird. This is taken from one of FrostyTech's reviews:

"Shown with the copper die template for a silicon-topped processor, the synthetic heatsink test apparatus awaits a coating of silver-based thermal compound and the Coolermaster DP5-5F11 heatsink. A slightly larger copper die template was used to test the effective cooling ability of the DP5-5F11 atop a heatspreader-based processor like an overclocked PGA Celeron processor. "
(http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.cfm?articleid=697&page=2)

So, I think my opinion still stands. Zalman is better for today's small-core CPUs than the old, big-core CPUs. And, as you might have heard, Palomino @ 130nm process is projected to be only 80% the size of today's 180nm T-bird die. This means that future of Zalman cooler is even brighter, since smaller die size means better cooling performance.

 

[Guest]

Ahh, interesting opinions all around.
I, too, had much trust in Tom's Hardware, but really, this time was just not right. And it's not just me being partial to Zalman.

"?...opinion on the Zalman coolers not necessarily supported by the facts"
What was the harshest thing he said?? I don't even remember...poor construction?
or something like that?? Hey If that’s his opinion then that’s his opinion. And
his opinion is probably better than most, don't you think? I mean He’s actually
got the thing in his hand!!....do you have one???

When you get one...give us YOUR opinion on the design and construction.

HE'S GOT ONE...THAT'S A FACT"

Yes, he's got one, and that may be a fact, but I got hundreds, and they do not exhibit such 'flaws'. He obviously had a random sample error. Also, if you look at the picture, this reviewer didn't even install the fan correctly so as to have the fan going directly over the heatsink. That would throw off the results easily, which it did, in my opinion.

"Are the bencies flawed (like this guy says) because of external heat probe??
?not if all the test candidates had the same limitations! And that's the rub! "

Now that's the problem. If the tests were flawed, then a certain heatsink could have unfair advantage over others. It's like a rigged exam. Back in the day when the Orbs were all the rage, people bought it because of the good numbers it got. Turns out the wind disturbance affected the external thermal sensor and lowered the temperature unfairly. I'm not implying that any specific cooler in this roundup had such advantage, but it still means a flawed test is not a fair test from the start.

And even more, the so-called cooler roundup had not been done in a single test. As it's evident, there were at least two separate testings, and yet the graphs were simply put together. There are many, many factors involved in a heatsink testing, and doing tests in a single test period for so many coolers is almost not fair because that factor could change a lot. But that's all ignored. The two separate tests did not even have the same ambient temperature! And this guy did not even do any ambient delta calculations on the figures so that it would at least have some correlations to the latter testing. Obviously, he does not know how to do a proper benchmarking on the heatsinks.

The flaws in the article doesn't end here, but I hope you get my point. The whole article is just a big lie.

 

[Guest]

Here's [H]ard OCP HSF reveiw. Zalman has a more favorable reveiw, but with a 7k fan. Interesting result on a Stock, Piece of Crap, OEM HSF with a 7k fan. Nice review, short and to the point...

<A HREF="http://www.hardocp.com/reviews/cooling/roundup0501 " target="_new">http://www.hardocp.com/reviews/cooling/roundup0501 </A>


<font color=blue>The #1 reason to upgrade your PC - to run faster benchmarks...</font color=blue>

 

[Guest]

Well this hardocp review is far more simular to other reviews I saw with the Zalman than Tom's review.
I always trusted Tom's reviews upto now to be accurate but with this cooler roundup he seems to have made some serious mistakes.

I wanted a Zalman before I read Tom's test, doubted after reading the test, but now I think I will finaly go for the Zalman (but I'll change the fan for a Delta 80mm fan with my own temperature control thingy)

Robin

 

[Bud]

AHHHH, I see, thank you for enlightening me. You "…got hundreds…" of these
Coolers. Well that explains it completely. You work for Zalman.

Okay, This will be my last post since this thread is boring me and it's getting to be
a flame war. But I want to leave you with one profound observation I've made in
life over the years.

People can rarely admit defeat. It's human nature. I see it 3 times a week when I'm
playing on-line games. Just last night for example, I scored #1 three rounds in a row
at DF Land Warrior. And by the middle of the second round the sucky players start
to call me a cheater (and I never cheat).

The reality is that they couldn't hack it with the big boys….but no one can ever
admit that. So they cry "CHEATER" instead. It's simply self delusion.
They can't, or they refuse, to accept the reality that they are not as good as me.

This is exactly what you're doing. You're baby could not hack-it against the big
boys, the Silverados, the Swiftechs…etc, etc…And you refuse to believe it. So you try
and claim someone cheated. …human nature. It's really that simple.




I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.

 

[Guest]

Even if he works for Zalman, it's still strange that the Zalman scores far worse in Tom's test than in all other online reviews.

Which is more likely; 5 different sites makes mistakes that's in favour of Zalman or 1 site (Tom's) makes a mistake that makes the Zalman worse than it is?

Robin

For the record: I am NOT working for Zalman. I am only intrested in GOOD comparisment of products before I buy something.


<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by rjacobs on 05/24/01 12:30 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[Guest]

I wonder who's afraid of the defeat right now, bud?

 

[Guest]

OK, I saw that cooler review a few days ago and thought that the opinions of that reviewer were very interesting. To start with I thought that the quoted temperature for the Swiftech 462 (30C load) was a little optimistic compared to others I've seen such as Anand's (http://images.anandtech.com/reviews/cooling/roundups/3-2001/graph2.gif).

Secondly, I've had the oppurtunity to look at a couple of Zalman's products as I run DangerousDog.com. Our review of the CNPS3100 unit wasn't done by me as I didn't have a socket A system at that time. However I did get the chance to look at the units before I sent them off to the person that did the actual review and I can say with certainty that the quality of Zalman's products is excellent. Although MikhailTech is down at the moment I saw good things being said about the quality of the Zalman units there too.

One other thing that did worry me about this particular review of the Zalman coolers was the way in which the fan was attached. In particular this picture: http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/01q2/010521/images/zalman_lufter_3.jpg which shows the fan almost completely missing the HSF. I dont believe it was intended to be setup like that, and when I first saw it I showed it to the owner of another tech site who agreed that it may not be representative of what the cooler should be able to achieve. thorfinn who works for DangerousDog.com and reviewed this cooler for us, set it up like this: http://www.dangerousdog.com/reviews/cnps3100/insystem.jpg which looks like it would give better performance, and I remember seeing in ClubOC's review that cooler's performance depended greatly on the postion of the fan.

Another thing that worries me is all this talk about being passive. On Zalman's site I see:

"CNPS(Computer Noise Prevention System) is a system that cuts traditional computer system's noise of 30dB or higher to 20dB or lower, which is below what a normal user can usually notice.


CNPS is achieved with Zalman's world first technologies such as CPU & VGA FHS(Flower HeatSink), which has shorter heat conductance path and surface area that is 3 to 10 times as large as traditional coolers, and NP(Noise Prevention) Fans."

Which indicates that the unit aims to lower noise levels...I dont believe that it's intended to be passive at all, unlike the GPU cooler, the CPU generates way too much heat for it to be viable anyway, so I dont really see what reason the reviewer would have to be annoyed at this.

If anyone has any questions for me personally, I'll check this thread over the next few days or you can mail me at webmaster@dangerousdog.com.

 

[peteb]

Yes, he's got one, and that may be a fact, but I got hundreds, and they do not exhibit such 'flaws'. He obviously had a random sample error. Also, if you look at the picture, this reviewer didn't even install the fan correctly so as to have the fan going directly over the heatsink. That would throw off the results easily, which it did, in my opinion.

From what I read on Zalman's pages the fan does not even sit right over the heatsink anyway.

Due to case differences their design cannot always work well. I think the THG review points this out that it is an odd feature.

Check this pic <A HREF="http://www.zalman.co.kr/images/pbimages/inst/instfanbr3.gif" target="_new">http://www.zalman.co.kr/images/pbimages/inst/instfanbr3.gif</A> from their website to see that thay do not line it up properly either!

If you compare coolers, the hardocp review it didn't get the OC'd 14. Athlon under 50 degrees, and that was with 7k fan... That seems pretty crap to me, compared to top hsf combos. I know that my Swiftech will keep my 1.6G Athlon in the 40-42 range (loaded).

Regarding ambient temps, he didn't tell us his methodology, but he did say that the ambient temps were compensated for in the test...

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[Guest]

I have discussed about the bracket problem with the executives, and there may be an improved design to counter the problems.

As for ambient temps 'compensated for', that's pretty vague and inaccurate. The temperature results from the older roundup was simply posted side-by-side with the newer roundup without any temperature compensations despite the fact that there were 2C differences! That's so unprofessional. I have no idea why he would try to fool people around like this.

 

[Guest]

When you get one...give us YOUR opinion on the design and construction

OK, I have one and I've been using it for the best part of a month now so do I qualify to give my opinion?
I can't really comment on the appraisal given on this site of the Zalman cooler but I can tell you about my experiences. Besides, all the "flaws" in the round-up have already been admirally highlighted by Wesley...

I recently had this cooler (CNPS3100) sent to me for review and so I am completely impartial, I did have an interest in trying it out but I had no pre-assumptions made on the cooling performance it would provide. (Something which other people should maybe start doing, don't judge this cooler if you haven't tried it for yourself).

Anyway, first things first - construction and build quality:
How anyone can say this cooler is poorly constructed is beyond me. In fact the whole package yells "quality" from the moment you open the box. The actual HS design is incredible and like nothing i've ever seen, you can see straight away the amount of consideration that's gone into the making of the HS - many sites mention the great build quality of this HS, not just me BTW. So I wont bore you all with the details such as the <b>perfect spacing of the fins</b> or the completely <b>flat-milled base</b>, just take my word for it.

Next, cooling:
This is where the fan and bracket comes into play. As Touche already mentioned, when I installed the setup, the fan was dead-center and almost resting on the HS. If you check the picture in Toms review you'll see it's way off the mark and I believe this greatly affects cooling performance. The bracket design shouldn't really affect the placement - although there are three screw holes to secure the fan in place, I only used one and angled the bracket so it was <b>directly over the HS.</b>
In testing, I found the CNPS3100 outperformed my Taisol cooler in both noiseless and normal modes. In normal mode the <b>Zalman was just beaten by the Fop38 (2c)</b>

Lastly, noise:
This is where I have to comment on the review at this site. Stating that the fan causes over 40dB is laughable - in normal mode the fan makes a low humming sound and in noiseless it's <b>barely audible</b>. How the reviewer managed to get a result of anything even approaching 40dB is uncomprehensible.

So there you go, that's a quick summary of my review and my personal feelings of the Zalman CNPS3100. I think a lot of people have heard bad things about it and pressume too much - one site stated it was completely crap and that they hadn't even tried it out, all in the same sentence!
To finish up all i'll say is, I have a Fop38 sitting right in front of me which was taken out of my system when I got the Zalman for review and has never gone back in - <b>the Zalman is my new cooler of choice....</b>

 

[peteb]

any reason this was to me?

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[Guest]

"any reason this was to me?"

he prolly just clicked the last person to post....I do it all the time, wouldn't worry about it

 

[SerArthurDayne]

"As for ambient temps 'compensated for', that's pretty vague and inaccurate. The temperature results from the older roundup was simply posted side-by-side with the newer roundup without any temperature compensations despite the fact that there were 2C differences! That's so unprofessional. I have no idea why he would try to fool people around like this."

All you have to do to compensate for ambient temperature is to adjust the end temperature by the ambient difference. That is what he did, and he said it.

You know what I find unprofessional? Slamming a guy's methodology and experience in order to discredit him, thereby gaining a favorable view of a product that(through all the reviews I've seen), does not perform well enough to earn our hard earned dollars.

Perhaps Tom is a bit biased on the Zalman's, and obviously had trouble with the sample he received. I think that I too would be incredibly irate if I were being kind enough to test a company's product and they didn't even bother to check that they sent a flaw-free sample - your cry of "random error! you're being unfair! I have hundreds that are just fine!" does not impress me.

Since you are so interested in professionalism, where is the Quality Assurance of Zalman that allowed the reviewer to get his hands on a shoddy piece of equipment that should have been caught by the company?

I've been visiting Tom's Hardware since 99, among other hardware sites, and I've found that 95% of the time, the reviews are right on the money or at least damn near it. In one of the articles I do recall seeing Tom present some of his testing methodology, including home made sound proof chambers for testing decibel levels. The lengths to which he went through to achieve unadulterated results definately impressed me, whereas your continued rant has not.

You lost every speck of of your arguments credibility when you decided to take this opportunity to spew your insults. Had you remained objective about this and raised questions instead of making attacks, I might have been more inclined to believe you.