Newbie needing help with Socket 7

[Guest]

I resently read the article in Toms Hardware guide about overclocking and opptimizing a Socket-5 MB.
Up to this point I have been shot down when I suggested over clocking my Pentium 200mhz MMX chip on my AOpen socket 7 board.
IS it possible. I have looked for resources on the internet and had no luck. I would really like to be able to use my cdrw at its capable speed, for one. and not be waisting my adsl connection bandwidth because the processor cant handle it.
The system is:
Motherboard: AOpen AP5t Socket 7 [4xPCI,3xISA, 2xSDRAM, 4x(olderRAM?),2xUSB
CPU: Pentium MMX 200mhz
Memory: 256mb sdram (PC133)
Hard drive: Quantum Fireball 2.1a 2.2Gig
Power: 250W power
Videocard: AOpen PV75 graphics card
Soundcard: SB 128 bit
Network cards: 10 base T ethernet card
Floppy drive: generic 3 1/2inch floppy
Disk drive: 16x10x40x cdr/rw

To the overclocking pros out there, any small piece of advice would help. I have searched extensivley. I think maybe I dont know what I should be searching though. Even if you can redirect me to a site that gives instructions I would be greatful.

Thank you in advance.
> Darren

For the record I have also read Toms step by step guide to Overclocking.

 

[girish]

To start with, take a stock of what you have:

1. A Pentium 200 MHz processor: Unofficially overclocked to 233 MHz, but can run at upto 300 with higher core voltage. This CPU works with single voltage of 3.3V, the board supports voltages of 3.45 and 3.52V that you would need when running at higher speeds.
2. <A HREF="http://www.aopen.com/products/mb/ap5t.htm" target="_new">AOpen AP5t</A>: It has a 430TX chipset, so you can use most of the high density memories that the 430VX didnt support. Here is the <A HREF="http://www.tomshardware.co.kr/aopenap5t.html" target="_new">Tomshardware board review</A>, most of your questions would be answered here.
3. SDRAM: make sure you have at least PC100 SDRAM, preferably single DIMM or multiple DIMMs of same make.
4. Power supply: 250W: quite enough for your setup.
5. sound card: SB128 does not mean its 128 bit, its a 32 bit PCI card with 128 voice polyphony, meaning it can play 128 different sounds simultaneously.
6. rest of the components are fine for a small overclock.

So, first step is to increase the multiplier, you can easily set it with the jumpers provided on the motherboard, the 200 MHz chip works at 66x3, you can set the multiplier to 3.5 to run it at 233 MHz. If it works fine, try a multiplier of 4 to run it at 266 MHz. if it crashes, raise the core voltage to 3.45V or higher. make sure you have a better CPU cooler to dissipate the heat generated by the CPu running at core voltage as high as 3.52V!

You can also switch the FSB to 75 and then 83 MHz to work your CPU to either 225 or 250 MHz and then attempt to increase the core voltage. THG has tried with FSBs upto 83 MHz as stated in the above review.

Hope this helps.

girish

<font color=red>Nothing is fool-proof. Fools are Ingenious!</font color=red>

 

[Guest]

Girish, that couldnt have been more helpful. That review is idiot proof. Its the first time the concept of over clocking has really made sense. Probably also do to the fact that I found the manual awhile ago, and I know where the jumpers are, and what the reviewer was refering to.
I think I will be attempting this today, there are only a few things that I didnt get or Im worried about.
They mention that the Passive voltage regulator(?) gets VERY hot. Do I need to worry about that?
Im using Win2k, when there benchmarks where done under Win95? Will my OS effect this over clock, potentially in a bad way?
The last thing is cooling. I realize that I would need something better then what I have, I dont have the first clue what though. Could you suggest something?. They dont mention anything about it in the review,
YOur advice so far and that review are great. This system looks like it could actually give me a basic tutorial in over clocking.

YOur notes made sense of a few of the questions that I had already, so thank you for all of it.

You mentioned in the beginning of the article that I could get it up to 300MHz. I couldnt make sense of that based on the info they provided in the article. The highest bus speed was 250/ 83MHz. Im guessing you saw a way around that. If you have the time, I would love to here what your idea with that was.


>darren

 

[girish]

Darren,

Sorry, I missed the fact that the motherboard supports only upto 3x multipier. I thought that 4x75 can make 300 MHz, or even 4x83 could do 333 MHz! But, although the board doesnt support it, you can do some modifications to the board (which I dont recommend if you arent at home with using a soldering iron), or connect a fine wire accross specific pins on the processor (short them to either Vcc or GND) to set the multiplier. The processors have some pins named FID that set the internal multiplier, its a code of 1 and 0s, high and low voltages so you can tie these pins to respective supply pins and get the desired multiplier. If you look at the Pentium processor pinout, these Vcc and GND pins are liberally spread over, so you can find one nearby the designated pin too easily.

Do this only after you have succesfully done 83x3!

The voltage regulator does get very hot if it has to supply currents in excess it is rated for. Since overclocking essentially means stretching the parameters, current demand is also stretched which can affect the voltage regulator. You can attatch a bigger heatsink on the regulator chip (its the only one with a heatsink on the board, chipsets then dint need one) or you can note down the part number and change it to a better one of the same specifications, or just in case it blows, keep a spare one!

Overclocking doesnt have any problem whatsoever with the OS, it just thinks its a faster processor, provided cooling and core voltages are set properly. If they arent, the OS can crash or lockup a lot, but thats a hardware problem supposed to be related to the processor.

As for cooling, you can refer to the listings on websites that sell cooling fans, some big names like coolermaster, alpha, OCz etc have some good ones, or you can even use a standard socket370 heatsink used for Pentium-IIIs and Celerons, the pitch is the same. But keep in mind the THG review said the ZIF socket is cheap, it may not sustain the excessive force exerted by the clip that is used for a P-III socket.

I have all the Pentium manuals, I will locate the pins and their connections and post them. Before that, of course, I will have to test them!

girish

<font color=red>Nothing is fool-proof. Fools are Ingenious!</font color=red>

 

[Guest]

AWW, the pieces of the puzzle keep falling together. I think I can talk the talk now. I will start this morning to see if I can walk the walk. I will see how successful I am doing 83x3. Then I will come back and post. Youll know if I failed if I dont post before 10:00 or so tonight(pacific time).
If I am successful, I do have experience with PC board soldering, and soldering SMD's. I would love to attempt what you where suggesting , just for the challenge, and the extra 50MHz.
Until then, thanks again.
Darren

 

[girish]

Well, you dont have to do anything perverse to get the CPU working faster. <A HREF="http://www.aopen.com/tech/jumper/ap5t-2/default.htm" target="_new">This page</A> says that the board does support 3.5x multiplier so that you can run the processor at 291.5 MHz!

The multiplier has to be supported by the processor and a means to set it to be provided by the motherboard. The board does provide a 3.5x multiplier, maybe 4x could be set but the CPU doesnt support it. Later socket7 CPUs have a third FID (called as BF0/BF1 and BF2 that P200MMX doesnt have) pin that allows you to have more multipliers. The Pentium 200 MMX has only 2, so it supports only 4 combinations of 2x (default), 2.5x, 3x and 3.5x (interpreted as 1.5X on older processors).

The chipset wont go past 83, so the max speed you can get is 291.5 MHz. I have successfully tried running a 200 MHz processor at 300 just by switching the bus to 100 MHz on a ALi Aladdin board, maybe I could have gone 350 MHz with some effort.

girish

<font color=red>Nothing is fool-proof. Fools are Ingenious!</font color=red>

 

[girish]

BTW its a good idea to update the BIOS to the latest version, its there on the AOpen site.

<font color=red>Nothing is fool-proof. Fools are Ingenious!</font color=red>

 

[Crashman]

Your processor is 2.8v. You can overclock it well by raising it to 3.3v single voltage setting. The 3.5*83.3 setting might work, I'd try it, but get a good cooler first. Athlon/Duron/PIII socket coolers do fit Socket 7 as well, and most of them are far larger then you need, which makes them almost perfect.
You could also try a K6-2 500 on that board using the 2x setting. K6-2's interpret 2x as 6x, and 6*83.3..=500! The voltage for the K6-2 is somewhat lower than the lowest your board provides, but at the 2.8v setting they survive quite well with GOOD cooling, such as the cooler type I suggested.

I did have ONE board that would not recognize the K6-2 cache, resulting in poor performance. I don't remember whether it was this board or not. I would get the CPU from a place that I could return it to, just in case.

I believe the highest speed BIOS can report is 266MHz, but you can exceed that quite easily, just don't expect the right speed to show at boot. You can use a program such as CPUID to verify the true speed.

What's the frequency, Kenneth?

 

[Guest]

Unfortanetly gerish, I cant update my BIOS because I have Win2k. I cant access Dos, without drivers loading, so I cant flash the BIOS. I could be wrong, but I havent found a way areound it yet

I have it clocked at 225 right now. I put it up to 75x 2.9
Its Ok so far. Is voltage the ratio. It was saying that bus speed x ratio =core frequency. This made sense, as I was able to go up 25MHz but I thought I would ask before pushing it to 83.3 x 3.5 = 291.5
Thanks for the help again, and to you also crashman. Thats good to know about the BIOS. I think I will double check now with something like CPU speed. It measures the processor from windows.
Also gerish. There isint any chips on my board with heat sinks. Just SCR's. They all have heat sinks. I am guessing that it is the removable chip that isint a micro processor. If some could confirm this, it would be great.

thanks,
Darren

 

[Guest]

Ive put it up to 83.3 x 3.2/. Its running at 250MHz. I'll run it through sime high stress applications for a 1/2 an hour and then check temperature. If its fine I will out it uo to 291MHz.

 

[Guest]

Ok. This will be my last chain post(3rd one)
I was able to get it up to 250MHz with 3.2V, and then3.45V
If I put it up to 3.52V I loose stability and it freezes well windows is loading.
In conclusion, I dont think I will be able to get it up to 290MHz, because of this.I could be wrong though. Let me know if I am
I learned quiet a bit here in a short time, thank you girish. and crashman for your input.
I think I now understand the basics, although, your proposed putting wire around pins or altering the board still really intrigues me. I would be interested in learning more about that if you know of a good overclocking enthuasist page that explains that sort of thing, or you feel like telling me more about it.

thanks again,
not so much for the 50MHz, but for helping me make some sense of over clocking.

>darren

 

[camieabz]

That's not bad you know. 25% increase without extra cooling.

I'll have to get my hands on a couple of old cheap systems.

Girish/Crash:

Got a wee list of mobos to look out for when looking for overclockability?

<b><font color=blue>The Cisco Kid</font color=blue></b>

 

[girish]

well, you can make a DOS bootable floppy from a friend's computer running win98. copy aflash.exe and the BIOS file and follow the instructions, its not that difficult.

you shouldnt have gone to 3.52V at the same 250 MHz, higher speeds need higher voltage, at lower speeds lower voltage is enough. Unneccesary higher voltage at lower speeds would cause *Thermal runaway* and make your system crash, as it did! If you are trying 291 MHz, only then you might need to increase the core voltage, not before that. But first try it with 2.9V, if not succesful only then go for 3.45V, the board does not provide any voltage setting between 2.9 and 3.45V

Why you might ask, higher speed needs higher voltage is that at higher speeds, there is lesser time to for a signal to attain a voltage level which can be asserted as valid high (logic 1), therefore we need to increase dv/dt the rate of change of voltage (called as slew rate, not sure whether it is the same term in digital electronics) so that the desired voltage can be attained in that available short time. thats why we need to increase the voltage. another reason is that the processors are fabricated with MOS technology and its advanced versions, which tend to consume more power as they are run faster. this increased need of power reduces the current which in turn renders the signals at indeterminate values. Increasing the voltage supplies this additional power and maintains the signals to proper levels, which we call as good signal integrity.

However, due to the increase in voltage and thus power consumed by the chip, it also generates a lot of heat, which should be removed from the chip as fast as possible, else Thermal runaway occurs (the transistors saturate and stay in ON state doing nothing useful) and the system crashes or locks up.

therefore, if you are applying higher voltage, you should make sure that higher power you are producing is consumed by the chip in some useful work and not just in generation of heat which can actually cause problems and potential permenant damage to the processor.

Hope this clears some more of your ideas on overclocking! ;-)

girish

<font color=red>Nothing is fool-proof. Fools are Ingenious!</font color=red>

 

[Guest]

It does clear up some things about overclocking. SOme of the things mentioned I figured out when my sytem started becoming unstable well I was at 3.45V. I lowered it . It was still unstable at 3.2V. It is now running stable at 2.9V's with core freq. at 250. Im just glad I learned this lesson on this system, oppose to the Athlon XP 1800 Im getting.
I think thats going to be a whole other ball game, so to speak.
After reading some of THG reviews about overclocking XP's, and how complicated some of it is. I will be doing a lot of reading up on the specifics of it before attempting.
If you come back to this post. Is it my understanding then that it cant go any higher then 250MHz, do to the highest external clock being 83.3MHz. I learned that you cant increase core frequency by increasing voltage if the external clock is maxed out.
I have rule out altering the board or chip at this point atleast, but if there is an alternative way to push it past 250MHZ that you know of, with out altering the current flow, Id still like to hear about it? If not, thanks for sharing your know how on the subject with me. I did learn quiet a bit in a short span of time.

thanks,
Darren

 

[girish]

well, increase in volatge just assists the processor running at higher core speeds, it has nothing do with the speed itself.

Core speed is determined by external bus frequency (FSB) multiplied by the multiplier. Your board has maxed out on FSB at 83.3 MHz, but you still have a multiplier of 3.5 (the board as well as the processor supports it) to your advantage. It is intended for the 233 MHz processor that is supposed to run at 66.6 MHz FSB, but you can set that and the FSB to 83.3 getting a core speed of 291.5 MHz!
Try it, now you might need to increase the core voltage a bit but I think 2.9V should be fine.

girish


<font color=red>Nothing is fool-proof. Fools are Ingenious!</font color=red>