Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (
More info?)
In article <Xns965BA547B38E0mbeausympaticoca@130.133.1.4>,
mbeaudoin@scintrextrace.com says...
> 42 <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in
> news:MPG.1cf68c4cbdfaf8e7989b40@shawnews:
>
> > In article <1116527628.943503.70710@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> > xiphos@rahul.net says...
> >>
> >> Glancing over the site, I see they're srving up using EQemu. This
> >> should answer both your questions:
> >>
> >> 1) IANAL, but I believe technically Sony could come down on their
> >> asses, just as they could any other EQemu site. That said, it may
> >> not be in Sony's best interest to currently pay them any mind; I
> >> can't imagine Sony NOT being aware of this open-source project.
> >> Also, playing on this, or any other EQemu server is a violation of
> >> your EULA.
> >
> > Actually. Strictly speaking, if you are playing on an emu site most,
> > if not all, of they eula simply doesn't apply, because you aren't
> > using EQ's service, and don't actually -need- to agree to it. That
> > weakens it substantially.
>
> But you are using their software. Without looking at the EULA or the
> stuff you agree to during the install, I am quite certain that there is
> something in there where you agree to using it only on official EQ
> servers and that any other use is in violation of the Terms of Use.
>
> > What happens to the terms of an EULA if you click "I disagree"??
>
> You don't get to install/use the software.
Says who? Remember I -didn't- agree to those terms.
> > What
> > if the EULA forbids you to sniff traffic and my ISP sniffs traffic are
> > *they* in violation of the EULA?
>
> It depends on the intent. If the intent is to ensure that traffic is
> being most efficiently routed, probably not. If, however, it is being
> sniffed to aid in the reverse-engineering/hacking, it probably is.
So then packet sniffing is allowed. Period.
Your argument is that reverse engineering isn't allowed.
> > What if my brother takes my copy of
> > the software and decompiles it (for the sake of argument lets assume
> > it really was that simple) would *he* be in violation of the EULA?
>
> Don't know about the EULA, but he would probably be going against the
> copyright/IP covering it. Especially if he is going to be using it to
> create a direct competitor to EQ.
That wouldn't be too bright. Given that you have to have EQ to play his
game he could argue that he's actually boosting sales of the product.
> >> 2) EQemu is a nifty collaborative project to emulate the EQlive
> >> serers.
> >> This was achieved by blatantly ignoring the EULA, and quite possibly
> >> breaking copyright and reverse-engineering laws in many areas.
> >
> > there is nothing illegal about designing a product using your own code
> > that interfaces with another product.
>
> It is if the other product states that you are only to use the product on
> their severs.
>
> > No copyright is violated.
>
> Not in this case, no.
>
> > Players are expected to have purchased EQ, and have rights to use the
> > software more or less however they see fit.
>
> Wrong. Each time the player loads EQ, they are agreeing to the terms
> stated in the EULA.
For the sake of argument, lets say they are doing just that. What then?
Well.. the EULA, as most contracts do, stipulate what actions and
remedies will be taken should you violate terms of the contract. In this
case: SOE will discontinue your service. (ie ban you).
Given that these players aren't playing on the EQ server, they may be
quite comfortable with the remedy. So SOE can ban them and be done with
it. The EULA has been fully satisfied. SOE will have excersized its
right to ban you for EULA violation, and the player will continue
playing on a remote server. All parties are happy now. Right?
If not, why not?
> > There is nothing illegal
> > about reverse engineering. A great deal of innovation comes from
> > seeing how other things work.
>
> You can reverse engineer,
Correct. (Except in the case of the DMCA in America.)
> however to use thier IP for your own use is
> illegal and requires the payment of royalties/licensing fees. To use it
> without their permission is not permitted.
Incorrect.
Think about it.
I can take apart a patented blender see how it works, walk over to radio
shack and buy a motor and some blades etc and make a blender of my own.
That is neither illegal nor does it require permission or payments --
unless I try to commercialize it. But I can do it in my own basement all
I please.
Similiarly I can take a copy of lord of the rings, type it up on my
computer, change the fonts, change everyones name to someone I know, add
cute illustrations and print it out. This also legal and can be done
without permission or payments. I cannot however
distribute/broadcast/etc because that would violate copyright law.
When you buy something you are granted the right to do whatever you want
with it, with specific limitations which are covered by patent and
copyright laws. Contrary to what you seem to think the IP holder
doesn't, within IP law, have the power to dictate exactly what you can
and cannot do with something he sells you that incorporates his IP.
His only recourse is contracts if he wants to further restrict what you
can do with the product. But contracts are not law, they aren't even
legally binding when they haven't been signed.
> > The only anti-reverse engineering law is in america and only with
> > respect to that ridiculous piece of law called the DMCA which forbids
> > it only with respect to circumventing encyrption and copy protection
> > mechanisms, and even that is beyond stupid.
>
> Red herring. This doesn't have anything to do with the argument in
> question.
Well DUH! Bringing up reverse engineering in the FIRST place was a red
herring. I'm only explaining WHY.
> <snip>
>
> > They only really grey area of EQ emu comes to the EULA, which is
> > pretty weak in terms of legal enforceablily at the best of times, and
> > is further weakened by the fact that the developers/players may in
> > fact be disagreeing with it.
>
> But when you disagree with it, you don't get to use the software.
Funny thing about contracts: If you refuse to sign them they don't
actually apply.
You see, if I write up a contract and it says: By signing this contract
you agree to fill my truck full of the gold nuggets that I just sold
you. By refusing to sign this contract you agree not to make use of the
gold nuggets for your own purposes.
So there is no way I could sue you for using those nuggets if you refuse
to sign it. Similiarly there is no way SOE could sue for violating the
EULA if you clicked I disagree.
And to address somebody elses comment... its trivially easy to install
everquest WITHOUT agreeing to the EULA.
So...
If I disagree with the EULA, who says I can't use the software? I bought
the disk; copyright law forbids me from taking specific actions with it
(reproduction/broadcast/etc..) but I can muck with its contents to my
hearts content. No law forbids it and the EULA doesn't apply because I
didn't sign it.
> >> Xiphos - Personally, I'd rather develop a game from the ground up to
> >> maintain both creative and legal integrity and legitemacy. But hey,
> >> that's just me.
> >
> > If you buy a few hundred dollars worth of Warhammer 40k models, decide
> > you don't like the rules why shouldn't you write some of your own?
>
> The thing is, buying model figurines is completely different from
> buying/using software.
The thing is: No its not.
> When you buy figurines, you buy them and they
> become your property. When you buy software, it doesn't become your
> property.
It becomes your property as much as the software does. Which is to say
they that just like software: to an extent they do not.
> You are paying for the right to use a copy of the software,
> that is it.
When you buy models you are paying for the right to use those copies of
the model. "That is it." to use your words.
You didn't buy the intellectual property. You can't go into business
selling replicas of those models, selling posters with their
likenesses... or violate any of the other rights the IP holder has
retained.
> > What makes playing EQ on an emu server morally or ethically any
> > different. (I'll concede its legally slightly different because
> > warhammer 40k hasn't figured out how to attach an EULA to their models
> > yet, describing exactly what you can and cannot use them for.)
>
> What makes it different is that models and software are two completely
> different things.
Consider the simpler case of plastic models, and virtual models. (forget
this vaguely defined "software" for the moment, just consider re-use of
the *models*.
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