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Caster's Realm: The Story of 69 and 70 Runes

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Anonymous
May 29, 2005 11:46:28 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Caster's Realm: The Story of 69 and 70 Runes

With the release of Omens of War, SOE began a new system for delivering
spells. This system offered many advantages. Spells rewarded by turning
in runes came out in a certain order and ensured that a player never
received duplicate spells. Runes for 66, 67, and 68 runes were dropable
and, although expensive, cost the same price regardless of what spell
was returned within each level. There was no price gouging for
Conviction like there was for Virtue back during PoP. This resulted in
a much more stable reward system for spells than previous expansions.

69 and 70 spells, however, have proved difficult to acquire. Unlike the
others, 69 and 70 runes are no-drop. You must receive them in battle in
a select set of areas within Omens of War.

It is important to understand the scope of this topic. The difficulty
of acquiring 69 and 70 spells probably only effects a small group of
players but only SOE can tell us exactly how many players this effects.
SOE can take a look at the number of level 69 and 70 spellcasters who
have level 69 and 70 spells and compare them to those who do not. If
most casters have them, than this isn't as big a problem as it might
appear. If, however, most casters do not have their spells, it is worth
considering an alternative.

Often when this topic comes up, one statement pops up without fail:
Spells are the same as the weapons and armor a non-caster must acquire
and sometimes this armor is just as difficult to acquire.

Spells are not the same as weapons and armor. They are a different
entity worthy of a different solution than simply labeling them "loot"
and adding them to the same system as weapons, armor, and augments.
Each spell is often vastly different than other spells.

Spells are but one element to a caster's upgrade path. Like all other
classes, casters must improve their equipment with armor upgrades, mana
upgrades, mana regeneration upgrades, and focus effects. While casters
improve primarily with spell upgrades, gear matters for casters as much
as it does for other classes.

But sometimes spells ARE loot. If we look at expansions like Ykesha,
Lost Dungeons, Gates of Discord, and Dragons of Norrath, we don't see
the base progressive spells we see in Kunark, Planes of Power, and
Omens of War. We see new spells that improve us beyond the basic
abilities of our traditional spells.

As spellcasters level up, they will find they require new spells in
order to perform effectively. As we grow we need new blasts, new heals,
new armor spells, new slows, pacifications, and mezzes. Without them,
we are worse off than we were at the lower level since the battles in
which we fight are balanced around the spells we are supposed to have.

The problem with 69 and 70 spells is in the sheer number of them. Most
classes have ten to twelve spells above level 69. This isn't a matter
of getting lucky on one or two drops, a caster must receive ten to
twelve level 69 and 70 runes to receive all of the upgraded spells for
their class. Looking back at the comparison for loot, no warrior has to
loot ten swords in order to receive the one that makes him more useful.

The real problem with 69 and 70 spells is availability. 69 and 70
spells drop in five zones: Wall of Slaughter, Ruined City of Dranik,
Muramite Proving Grounds, the MPG single-group trials, and Riftseekers.
They also drop off of multi-group beasts in areas such as Bloodfields
and Noble's Causeway but we will focus on single-group drops in this
article.

The drop rate in Wall of Slaughter, Ruined City of Dranik, and the
Muramite Proving Grounds is so low as to make it pointless to hunt
there with the intention of acquiring 69 and 70 runes.

For example, in the Muramite Proving Grounds, one might see a 69 or 70
rune drop once every nine hours per named mob. Considering that groups
often have at least four of their members seeking these runes and that
a caster needs ten to twelve of these runes to reach the end of his or
her spell lines, it might take 360 hours to get all of these spells.
Assuming a group can clear two spawn locations, you're still looking at
180 hours. This doesn't include group downtime, travel time, recovery
time, LFG time, or any other factor that will likely increase that
time.

And that's the average.

Considering that this is a random drop off of a rare mob then awarded
on a random loot roll with the other members, the odds are very low per
drop. These odds also reset every hunt. You aren't earning points
towards spell drops each hunt, you are just hoping that this time you
might get lucky.

In a recent post on the topic, Rytan, SOE's spell guru, mentions that
the MPG single-group trials have the best drop rate average at one rune
per 90 minutes. However, with a two hour lockout per trial and a
reported drop rate of one rune per three trials, the drop rate is more
like one rune every six hours. Add that to the odds that at least two
others in your group also require their runes and you're back to 180
hours of Trial hunting to get all level 69 and 70 spells.

This leaves Riftseeker's Sanctum. This zone drops runes on average of
once every 2.66 hours per rare spawn location. If we assume two cleared
spawn locations and the same three people per group requiring spells we
come up with forty hours for the total spell line. That's a great
improvement over the 135 in MPG and the 180 in MPG trials.

This leads to one conclusion. If you want your 69 and 70 spells, hunt
in Riftseekers. It is the only reliable way to earn 69 and 70 spell
drops with any reasonable return and even there it is based only on
luck.

Let's step back a moment and talk about what SOE can do in the future
to improve the spell drop situation. I agree that while spells aren't
exactly direct loot, they are not to be handed out for no effort at
all. On the other hand, new spells are one of the primary reasons
people level up and to deny them those spells hurts their motivation to
progress.

Here are a few recommendations to improve spell progression in the
future:

Split spells up into "have" spells and "have-not" spells. "Have" spells
are the base spells each class needs to do their primary job and are
easier to acquire. "Have-not" spells include minor upgrades to the
"have" spells, convenience spells like group buffs, and secondary spell
lines for that class. "Have-not" spell are harder to acquire.

Only drop ancient spells on raids. Don't use raids as a path for
non-raid spell progression. Come up with a set of spells that primarily
benefit raiders on raids and don't unbalance group encounters. Hsagra's
wrath and the giant bane spells of Velious are good examples.

Offer solo quests or single group missions that reward the "have"
spells and make the rewards droppable. Offer alternative spell
progression paths once newer expansions make older no-drop spells
harder to acquire. Find a new way to distribute spells older than two
expansions.

Offer at least one or two spells per level that are easily acquirable
to help reward casters for leveling up. Spells are a primary reason
casters level up. While not every spell should be available at every
level, one or two spells per level would help motivate casters to
level.

Spells are a complex topic. Most discussions try to oversimplify
exactly what they are or how they should drop. There is no clear
conclusion to these arguments. Each spell is unique and must be
considered and balanced against other spells and other items not just
in power but in acquisition. Time for me to get back to Riftseeker's.

Loral Ciriclight
8 May 2005
loral@loralcirlcight.com
Anonymous
May 29, 2005 8:06:25 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

> This leads to one conclusion. If you want your 69 and 70 spells, hunt
> in Riftseekers. It is the only reliable way to earn 69 and 70 spell
> drops with any reasonable return and even there it is based only on
> luck.
>

But for an enchanter to reliably get groups in these zones, you need a mez
spell that works on the mobs here.
SOE made this mez spell the *third* spell we get, so its catch 22.
You cant get a group in this zone without the mez spell (unless you have
friends to "carry" you), and you cant get the mez spell without a group.
Anonymous
May 29, 2005 11:12:18 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

<mshea01@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Often when this topic comes up, one statement pops up without fail:
> Spells are the same as the weapons and armor a non-caster must acquire
> and sometimes this armor is just as difficult to acquire.
>
> Spells are not the same as weapons and armor. They are a different
> entity worthy of a different solution than simply labeling them "loot"
> and adding them to the same system as weapons, armor, and augments.
> Each spell is often vastly different than other spells.

Completely missing the fact that every class uses runes, not just casters...
Anonymous
May 30, 2005 3:50:16 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

In alt.games.everquest, Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> wrote:

><mshea01@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Often when this topic comes up, one statement pops up without fail:
>> Spells are the same as the weapons and armor a non-caster must acquire
>> and sometimes this armor is just as difficult to acquire.
>>
>> Spells are not the same as weapons and armor. They are a different
>> entity worthy of a different solution than simply labeling them "loot"
>> and adding them to the same system as weapons, armor, and augments.
>> Each spell is often vastly different than other spells.

>Completely missing the fact that every class uses runes, not just casters...

But understanding that a warrior needs 3-4 runes, not approximately 25.

--
Tony Evans (ICQ : 170850)
Recommended Author : Guy Gavriel Kay
Meaningless tagline attached to pointless message.
Meet the wife : http://www.darkstorm.co.uk/grete
Anonymous
May 30, 2005 8:05:31 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

On Sun, 29 May 2005 16:06:25 GMT, "Vladesch"
<vladeschxxxx@bigxxxxxpond.net.auxxx> wrote:

>> This leads to one conclusion. If you want your 69 and 70 spells, hunt
>> in Riftseekers. It is the only reliable way to earn 69 and 70 spell
>> drops with any reasonable return and even there it is based only on
>> luck.
>>
>
>But for an enchanter to reliably get groups in these zones, you need a mez
>spell that works on the mobs here.
>SOE made this mez spell the *third* spell we get, so its catch 22.
>You cant get a group in this zone without the mez spell (unless you have
>friends to "carry" you), and you cant get the mez spell without a group.
>

69 spells drop in pairs off of minis from NC off of mobs that can be
done with 2 groups. Get your guild to help you.

Also - just like warriors and knights can't get the best weapons
without killing things, this makes it so that casters can't get the
best spells without killing things.

In most cases, the L70 spells are only group versions of other Omens'
spells. So if you only group, you don't really need them.

If you raid a lot, it won't take much for your guild to help you get
your spells.

I myself don't have any L70 spells yet (L70 enc) and all but one of my
L69 spells. I've been an applicant into a guild for over a month, and
soon to be a full member. At that time, I'll have my turn at the
spell runes when we do MPG trials (they always drop 2 Glowing runes)
Anonymous
May 30, 2005 9:23:36 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Larry Laffer" <private@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mdem91hd7ub9lrtlp2uamkg23r6f99s6ip@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 29 May 2005 16:06:25 GMT, "Vladesch"
> <vladeschxxxx@bigxxxxxpond.net.auxxx> wrote:
>
>>> This leads to one conclusion. If you want your 69 and 70 spells, hunt
>>> in Riftseekers. It is the only reliable way to earn 69 and 70 spell
>>> drops with any reasonable return and even there it is based only on
>>> luck.
>>>
>>
>>But for an enchanter to reliably get groups in these zones, you need a mez
>>spell that works on the mobs here.
>>SOE made this mez spell the *third* spell we get, so its catch 22.
>>You cant get a group in this zone without the mez spell (unless you have
>>friends to "carry" you), and you cant get the mez spell without a group.
>>
>
> 69 spells drop in pairs off of minis from NC off of mobs that can be
> done with 2 groups. Get your guild to help you.
>
> Also - just like warriors and knights can't get the best weapons
> without killing things, this makes it so that casters can't get the
> best spells without killing things.
>

True, but a basic bread and butter spell, that lets you do your primary job
in a regular xp zone shouldnt be a "best spell"
At the very least, it shouldnt be the *third* spell you get.
This is the kind of bs why I dont play eq anymore.
Anonymous
May 31, 2005 12:30:05 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

One of the necros in my guild is 1 for 42 on rolls for 69/70 runes.Given his
experience I've decided to stay at level 67 and go 100% AA until I get all the
AAs I think I really need. Maybe by that time the spells will be researchable.
Anonymous
May 31, 2005 3:39:59 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

<postmaster@[> wrote:
> In alt.games.everquest, Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> wrote:
>
> ><mshea01@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Often when this topic comes up, one statement pops up without fail:
> >> Spells are the same as the weapons and armor a non-caster must acquire
> >> and sometimes this armor is just as difficult to acquire.
> >>
> >> Spells are not the same as weapons and armor. They are a different
> >> entity worthy of a different solution than simply labeling them "loot"
> >> and adding them to the same system as weapons, armor, and augments.
> >> Each spell is often vastly different than other spells.
>
> >Completely missing the fact that every class uses runes, not just casters...
>
> But understanding that a warrior needs 3-4 runes, not approximately 25.

And? Warriors need a variety of weapons to be considered "complete" (DPS,
aggro, piercing/slashing/blunt for certain events, etc.) but can get by with
just one. I know from experience that it works the same for casters in
regards to missing spells.

In other words, runes are just another piece of equipment, and *belong* on
the same system as weapons, armor, and augments, or at least definitely do
*not* need to give casters anymore preference than what they already receive
by being able to claim "need" in many groups for longer.
Anonymous
June 1, 2005 12:21:38 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Tony Evans <postmaster@[127.0.0.1]> wrote:
: But understanding that a warrior needs 3-4 runes, not approximately 25.

A Warrior really only needs 1. That's for the bellow. The rest are
really pure fluff.

K
Anonymous
June 1, 2005 10:14:39 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

On Tue, 31 May 2005 11:39:59 -0500, Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> wrote:

>> But understanding that a warrior needs 3-4 runes, not approximately 25.
>
>And? Warriors need a variety of weapons to be considered "complete" (DPS,
>aggro, piercing/slashing/blunt for certain events, etc.) but can get by with
>just one. I know from experience that it works the same for casters in
>regards to missing spells.

Maybe for raids but the tanks I used to group with always had a pretty
wide selection of weapons to aim for. ... and there were always a few
that were 'good enough' and relatively easy to get. I also never ran
into that problem with my melee characters (but never got one past
60th lvl).

Spell drops, on the other hand, are what convinced me to walk away
from EQ and have kept me from trying it again. I don't mind the grind
to level 70 but the thought of having to grind runes (and GoD spells)
killed it for me. I just didn't care enough to bother so it was easier
to just walk away from EQ.

Rgds, Frank
Anonymous
June 1, 2005 7:59:34 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Larry Laffer <private@aol.com> wrote in
news:mdem91hd7ub9lrtlp2uamkg23r6f99s6ip@4ax.com:

> On Sun, 29 May 2005 16:06:25 GMT, "Vladesch"
> <vladeschxxxx@bigxxxxxpond.net.auxxx> wrote:
>
>>> This leads to one conclusion. If you want your 69 and 70 spells,
>>> hunt in Riftseekers. It is the only reliable way to earn 69 and 70
>>> spell drops with any reasonable return and even there it is based
>>> only on luck.
>>>
>>
>>But for an enchanter to reliably get groups in these zones, you need a
>>mez spell that works on the mobs here.
>>SOE made this mez spell the *third* spell we get, so its catch 22.
>>You cant get a group in this zone without the mez spell (unless you
>>have friends to "carry" you), and you cant get the mez spell without a
>>group.
>>
>
> 69 spells drop in pairs off of minis from NC off of mobs that can be
> done with 2 groups. Get your guild to help you.
>
> Also - just like warriors and knights can't get the best weapons
> without killing things, this makes it so that casters can't get the
> best spells without killing things.

The difference is that an Enchanter that can't mez high level mobs is
practically useless in RSS (where glowing runes are actually obtainable
by a single group regularly), whereas a warriro or knight that doesn't
have the "best" weapon is still quite effective in RSS.

>
> In most cases, the L70 spells are only group versions of other Omens'
> spells. So if you only group, you don't really need them.

Hardly. As a shaman, 3 of my level 70 spells are group versions of
single target buffs. Others are an AoE slow, a much better heal over
time, and a poison DoT. So, that's half of my level 70 spells that are
group buffs. I'd wager that for other buffing classes, the ratio is
similar.

>
> If you raid a lot, it won't take much for your guild to help you get
> your spells.

We raid 4 nights a week, and it takes forever to get all the casters
equipped with level 70 spells. The level 69 ones were easier to obtain.
The mobs that drop level 70 runes are contested, we are lucky, on
average, to get 2 level 70 runes per night of raiding. Sometimes we get
a lot more, sometimes we can't get any. With a raid force of 50ish
players, if even just half of them are casters, that is 175 or so glowing
runes required.

>
> I myself don't have any L70 spells yet (L70 enc) and all but one of my
> L69 spells. I've been an applicant into a guild for over a month, and
> soon to be a full member. At that time, I'll have my turn at the
> spell runes when we do MPG trials (they always drop 2 Glowing runes)

I have 2 of my level 70 spells, and all of my 69 spells. Most of the
very few people in the guild that have a significant number of level 70
spells are the ones who play EQ for huge amounts of time, and live in
RSS.

--
On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons

On Steamfont in <Insanity Plea>
Graeme, 28 Dwarven Mystic, 24 Sage, Retired
Aviv, 15 Gnome Brawler, 30 Provisioner, Retired
Anonymous
June 1, 2005 8:00:17 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> wrote in
news:slrnd9kmj0.2n5.faned@wyld.qx.net:

> <mshea01@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Often when this topic comes up, one statement pops up without fail:
>> Spells are the same as the weapons and armor a non-caster must
>> acquire and sometimes this armor is just as difficult to acquire.
>>
>> Spells are not the same as weapons and armor. They are a different
>> entity worthy of a different solution than simply labeling them
>> "loot" and adding them to the same system as weapons, armor, and
>> augments. Each spell is often vastly different than other spells.
>
> Completely missing the fact that every class uses runes, not just
> casters...
>

The difference is that melee classes require one rune at any given level,
whereas casters require multiple runes at each level.

--
On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons

On Steamfont in <Insanity Plea>
Graeme, 28 Dwarven Mystic, 24 Sage, Retired
Aviv, 15 Gnome Brawler, 30 Provisioner, Retired
Anonymous
June 1, 2005 8:00:18 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

<RichardRapier@netscape.net> wrote:
> Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> wrote in
> news:slrnd9kmj0.2n5.faned@wyld.qx.net:
>
> > <mshea01@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Often when this topic comes up, one statement pops up without fail:
> >> Spells are the same as the weapons and armor a non-caster must
> >> acquire and sometimes this armor is just as difficult to acquire.
> >>
> >> Spells are not the same as weapons and armor. They are a different
> >> entity worthy of a different solution than simply labeling them
> >> "loot" and adding them to the same system as weapons, armor, and
> >> augments. Each spell is often vastly different than other spells.
> >
> > Completely missing the fact that every class uses runes, not just
> > casters...
> >
>
> The difference is that melee classes require one rune at any given level,
> whereas casters require multiple runes at each level.

I don't see that as a difference. Assuming that "require" is an applicable
term, which for the most part it isn't, it sounds just like the way that I
"require" gear upgrades every expansion.
Anonymous
June 1, 2005 9:37:28 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> wrote in
news:slrnd9rr7v.2n5.faned@wyld.qx.net:

> <RichardRapier@netscape.net> wrote:
>> Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> wrote in
>> news:slrnd9kmj0.2n5.faned@wyld.qx.net:
>>
>> > <mshea01@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Often when this topic comes up, one statement pops up without
>> >> fail: Spells are the same as the weapons and armor a non-caster
>> >> must acquire and sometimes this armor is just as difficult to
>> >> acquire.
>> >>
>> >> Spells are not the same as weapons and armor. They are a different
>> >> entity worthy of a different solution than simply labeling them
>> >> "loot" and adding them to the same system as weapons, armor, and
>> >> augments. Each spell is often vastly different than other spells.
>> >
>> > Completely missing the fact that every class uses runes, not just
>> > casters...
>>
>> The difference is that melee classes require one rune at any given
>> level, whereas casters require multiple runes at each level.
>
> I don't see that as a difference. Assuming that "require" is an
> applicable term, which for the most part it isn't, it sounds just like
> the way that I "require" gear upgrades every expansion.
>

I was actually not arguing the same vs not the same loot, just pointing
out the significant difference in number of runes required, and as has
been pointed out, casters need gear upgrades in addition to the spells.
In our guild we do treat the runes the same as equipment generally.

--
On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons

On Steamfont in <Insanity Plea>
Graeme, 28 Dwarven Mystic, 24 Sage, Retired
Aviv, 15 Gnome Brawler, 30 Provisioner, Retired
Anonymous
June 2, 2005 2:43:07 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Larry Laffer <private@aol.com> wrote in
news:mdem91hd7ub9lrtlp2uamkg23r6f99s6ip@4ax.com:

>SNIP<

>
> 69 spells drop in pairs off of minis from NC off of mobs that can be
> done with 2 groups. Get your guild to help you.

What about the more casual players or the ones not in guilds? Or the ones
in smaller family guilds?

> Also - just like warriors and knights can't get the best weapons
> without killing things, this makes it so that casters can't get the
> best spells without killing things.

Flawed comparison. Melee have a huge variety of weapons and armor
available to them, with the best ones coming from high level raid mobs.
Casters get their gear the same way.
Spell are an entirely different ball of wax. I think putting "ancient"
or other special spells as drops off mobs is fine, but I can tell you
first hand that aquiring especially the L70 spells is an enormous
headache mostly due to the absurd drop rate.

> In most cases, the L70 spells are only group versions of other Omens'
> spells. So if you only group, you don't really need them.
>
> If you raid a lot, it won't take much for your guild to help you get
> your spells.

Players should have more options avaiable to them to get their 70 spells.
However, since the release of GoD, SoE has apparently decided that unless
you play EQ 8 hours a day or are extremely lucky, you shouldn't count on
those spells.

> I myself don't have any L70 spells yet (L70 enc) and all but one of my
> L69 spells. I've been an applicant into a guild for over a month, and
> soon to be a full member. At that time, I'll have my turn at the
> spell runes when we do MPG trials (they always drop 2 Glowing runes)

That's great. Before I retired, I was in a guild that was killing names
mobs in Riftseekers.... that still doesn't fix the problem that those L70
spells were rediculously hard to get for the average player. It really
shocks me that despite the exodus of players and server merges, SoE
didn't bother to go back and give the drop rate on those spells a second
look.
Anonymous
June 2, 2005 7:41:38 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

<me@somewhere.com> wrote:
>
> > Also - just like warriors and knights can't get the best weapons
> > without killing things, this makes it so that casters can't get the
> > best spells without killing things.
>
> Flawed comparison. Melee have a huge variety of weapons and armor
> available to them, with the best ones coming from high level raid mobs.
> Casters get their gear the same way.
> Spell are an entirely different ball of wax.

"Casters have a huge variety of spells available to them, with the best ones
coming from high level raid mobs."

Doesn't sound all that different to me. I guess maybe it would if I had one
of those false senses of entitlement that I see displayed far too often (in
life as well as in the game).
Anonymous
June 2, 2005 7:45:24 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

<me@somewhere.com> wrote:
> Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> wrote in
> news:slrnd9p4qs.2n5.faned@wyld.qx.net:
>
> ><postmaster@[> wrote:
> >> In alt.games.everquest, Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> ><mshea01@gmail.com> wrote:
> > And? Warriors need a variety of weapons to be considered "complete"
> > (DPS, aggro, piercing/slashing/blunt for certain events, etc.) but can
> > get by with just one. I know from experience that it works the same
> > for casters in regards to missing spells.
> >
> > In other words, runes are just another piece of equipment, and
> > *belong* on the same system as weapons, armor, and augments, or at
> > least definitely do *not* need to give casters anymore preference than
> > what they already receive by being able to claim "need" in many groups
> > for longer.
>
> Keep something in mind. If you look at all of the past Everquest
> expansions, spells have *never* been such a PITA to aquire as they were
> in GoD and OoW.
>
> In Kunark they were all tradeable. In Velious they were also largely
> tradeable although if I recall, Velious didn't stand out as being an
> expansion where we got piles of spells.
> Luclin's spells were also tradeable with the exception of the Ancient
> spells which (rightly I believe) were nodrop. PoP also had tradeable
> spells, but the runes were nodrop.

You're complaining about a different thing, one that I actually agree with.
The no-drop (now no-trade) flag should be removed from the game entirely.
It is an artificial and needlessly frustrating element of a "world".
Anonymous
June 2, 2005 8:12:52 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

JMC <me@somewhere.com> wrote in
news:9JGdnUsMXNiWtALfRVn-vQ@giganews.com:

> Larry Laffer <private@aol.com> wrote in
> news:mdem91hd7ub9lrtlp2uamkg23r6f99s6ip@4ax.com:
>
>>SNIP<
>
>>
>> 69 spells drop in pairs off of minis from NC off of mobs that can be
>> done with 2 groups. Get your guild to help you.
>
> What about the more casual players or the ones not in guilds? Or the
> ones in smaller family guilds?

Hit MPG as much as possible until level 69, then hit RSS as much as
possible. Two shaman in my guild outfitted themselves with all of their
69/70 runes by doing just that. It does help a lot if you have regular
friends to play with, otherwise, I will admit, getting an RSS group is
nigh on impossible these days. MPG is not hard to get a group for
though, and 69 and 70 runes can drop their, albeit rarely.

>
>> Also - just like warriors and knights can't get the best weapons
>> without killing things, this makes it so that casters can't get the
>> best spells without killing things.
>
> Flawed comparison. Melee have a huge variety of weapons and armor
> available to them, with the best ones coming from high level raid
> mobs. Casters get their gear the same way.
> Spell are an entirely different ball of wax. I think putting
> "ancient" or other special spells as drops off mobs is fine, but I can
> tell you first hand that aquiring especially the L70 spells is an
> enormous headache mostly due to the absurd drop rate.
>
>> In most cases, the L70 spells are only group versions of other Omens'
>> spells. So if you only group, you don't really need them.
>>
>> If you raid a lot, it won't take much for your guild to help you get
>> your spells.
>
> Players should have more options avaiable to them to get their 70
> spells. However, since the release of GoD, SoE has apparently
> decided that unless you play EQ 8 hours a day or are extremely lucky,
> you shouldn't count on those spells.

I still have none of my GoD spells, it is just about impossible to get a
group for any GoD zone now, it's way too old now.

>
>> I myself don't have any L70 spells yet (L70 enc) and all but one of
>> my L69 spells. I've been an applicant into a guild for over a month,
>> and soon to be a full member. At that time, I'll have my turn at the
>> spell runes when we do MPG trials (they always drop 2 Glowing runes)
>
> That's great. Before I retired, I was in a guild that was killing
> names mobs in Riftseekers.... that still doesn't fix the problem that
> those L70 spells were rediculously hard to get for the average player.
> It really shocks me that despite the exodus of players and server
> merges, SoE didn't bother to go back and give the drop rate on those
> spells a second look.
>

Overall, I do agree, the drop rate is pretty absurd at this point.

--
On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons

On Steamfont in <Insanity Plea>
Graeme, 33 Dwarven Mystic, 24 Sage, Treasure Hunter
Aviv, 15 Gnome Brawler, 30 Provisioner
Anonymous
June 2, 2005 10:28:15 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Graeme Faelban" <RichardRapier@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:Xns966968A3A5AAErichardrapiernetscap@130.133.1.4...
> JMC <me@somewhere.com> wrote in
> news:1bmdnbw7wr7eswLfRVn-2Q@giganews.com:
>

> >
> > Keep something in mind. If you look at all of the past Everquest
> > expansions, spells have *never* been such a PITA to aquire as they
> > were in GoD and OoW.
> >

PoP was the worst. For 65 spells you needed Tier 3 minis. And you were
never guarenteed to get the spell you needed. You could turn in 20 and still
be getting repeats of the ones you had.


> Agreed. In the few times I have actually managed to get a group in RSS,
> I have seen exactly one glowing rune drop, and I lost the roll. The two
> Glowing runes I have recieved I got during guild raids. All of the
> Greater runes I have recieved during guild raids, with the exception of
> one that I won in MPG.
>
> It is a serious PITA to get the glowing runes particularly, if you are
> not in a raiding guild, and even if you are, the drop rate is so low that
> it will take a huge amount of time to get all the runes needed by the
> guild.
>

I guess the herd still hasn't found Ruined City of Drannik then. Our regular
group there was nearly finished with 69 and 70 runes when we quit for WoW and
EQ2. All from single group activity.


--
Davian / Dearic (Bloodhoof)

"We need a new Mario game, where you rescue the princess in the first ten
minutes, and for the rest of the game you try and push down that sick feeling
in your stomach that she's "damaged goods"... When Peach asks you, in the
quiet of her mushroom castle bedroom "do you still love me?" you pretend to be
asleep. You press the A button rhythmically, to control your breath, keep it
even." - Joey Comeau on increased realism in gaming.
Anonymous
June 3, 2005 2:18:17 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> writes:
> > > Also - just like warriors and knights can't get the best weapons
> > > without killing things, this makes it so that casters can't get the
> > > best spells without killing things.
> >
> > Flawed comparison. Melee have a huge variety of weapons and armor
> > available to them, with the best ones coming from high level raid mobs.
> > Casters get their gear the same way.
> > Spell are an entirely different ball of wax.
>
> "Casters have a huge variety of spells available to them, with the best ones
> coming from high level raid mobs."
>
> Doesn't sound all that different to me. I guess maybe it would if I had one
> of those false senses of entitlement that I see displayed far too often (in
> life as well as in the game).

I'll admit I don't know the high-level game yet, but I think the
argument is that casters do NOT have a huge variety of NEW spells
at, say, level 70. The comparison would be to imagine if there
were about a dozen items that are specifically available to a
Warrior at required level 70, available only as rare drops and/or
from raids, and at least, oh, 4-6 of those items make a huge
difference to the effectiveness of the Warrior compared to any
other items they might have. Usually, for the melees, they can
find other gear that gives them a significant fraction of the same
effectiveness. Thus, a melee type can go a variety of places and
end up with, if not the most effective gear, at least something
that comes close, whereas a caster who doesn't spend an eternity
in the rune-dropping zones will never come anywhere close to being
as effective as a caster who's managed to get the spell drops.

I can't speak to how accurate this perception is, but have I at
least gotten the argument straight?

-- Don.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
-- See the a.g.e/EQ1 FAQ at http://www.iCynic.com/~don/EQ/age.faq.htm
--
-- Sukrasisx, Monk 55 on E. Marr Note: If you reply by mail,
-- Terrwini, Druid 51 on E. Marr I'll get to it sooner if you
-- Wizbeau, Wizard 36 on E. Marr remove the "hyphen n s"
-- Teviron, Knight 19 on E. Marr
Anonymous
June 3, 2005 2:51:41 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

In article <slrnd9urnt.2n5.faned@wyld.qx.net>,
Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> wrote:
>"Casters have a huge variety of spells available to them, with the best ones
>coming from high level raid mobs."
>
>Doesn't sound all that different to me. I guess maybe it would if I had one
>of those false senses of entitlement that I see displayed far too often (in
>life as well as in the game).

Ok, suppose to get that blade of carnage you needed to win the
rolls on 15 other rare drops 12 of which were more or less useless to you?

Now, let's add the fact that if I *don't* get the BoC I can
buy a perfectly good 1HS in the bazaar and run a few dozen DoN's to
buy augments that will make it as good as or better than that BoC,
but the poor casters are still endlessly camping for their runes...
June 3, 2005 3:17:26 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

In article <slrnd9uruv.2n5.faned@wyld.qx.net>, faned@wyld.qx.net says...
> <me@somewhere.com> wrote:
> > Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> wrote in
> > news:slrnd9p4qs.2n5.faned@wyld.qx.net:
> >
> > ><postmaster@[> wrote:
> > >> In alt.games.everquest, Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> ><mshea01@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > And? Warriors need a variety of weapons to be considered "complete"
> > > (DPS, aggro, piercing/slashing/blunt for certain events, etc.) but can
> > > get by with just one. I know from experience that it works the same
> > > for casters in regards to missing spells.
> > >
> > > In other words, runes are just another piece of equipment, and
> > > *belong* on the same system as weapons, armor, and augments, or at
> > > least definitely do *not* need to give casters anymore preference than
> > > what they already receive by being able to claim "need" in many groups
> > > for longer.
> >
> > Keep something in mind. If you look at all of the past Everquest
> > expansions, spells have *never* been such a PITA to aquire as they were
> > in GoD and OoW.
> >
> > In Kunark they were all tradeable. In Velious they were also largely
> > tradeable although if I recall, Velious didn't stand out as being an
> > expansion where we got piles of spells.
> > Luclin's spells were also tradeable with the exception of the Ancient
> > spells which (rightly I believe) were nodrop. PoP also had tradeable
> > spells, but the runes were nodrop.
>
> You're complaining about a different thing, one that I actually agree with.
> The no-drop (now no-trade) flag should be removed from the game entirely.
> It is an artificial and needlessly frustrating element of a "world".

I think many people just don't understand no-drop.

Its about the idea of "uniqueness", and "personal involvement", and part
of how mmrpgs try to inject a little "heroism" or to convey that there
are things in the world that are about YOU. The game is about YOU, and
what YOU do.

No drop items aren't magic items that are somehow too sticky to give to
someone else, they are about capturing the idea that there are items out
there that only YOU can get, and that YOU must get them yourself,
because other people havnen't and can't.

If you want MobY's ThingX, you have to go and get it. There is only one
in the whole world, and MobY has it.

There's definitely a fundamental suspension of disbeleif in play. Your
supposed to ignore that other people have killed MobY before you, and
that ThingX exists in other people's hands. The quest texts are
personal, the items often refered to in the singular. Bring me THE
"heart of Y"... etc. I think by and large most people do accept this
suspension on some level, even as they paradoxically farm the named mob
over and over again.

No Trade is the compromise between actually injecting items and quests
that are personalized for each player, and incredible cost of actually
doing that, and so the same quest is reusable, but from each players
point of view, its just for them.

"No Trade" is the mechanic that allows it to happen.

If you imagine no drop items as "gm events" its more logical. Imagine
them spawning unique mobs and unique items just for you as you complete
various stages. Other people wouldn't be able to get the items or even
kill the mobs because they would only exist at all for you. The items
wouldn't "need" to be no drop per se but it wouldn't matter because
you'd never be able to buy or trade for them anyways. And the items
aren't droppable of course, by necessity of the fact that from everybody
elses perspective... you don't have it. If they are working on that
quest then you aren't, if they are trying to remove the heart of Y from
Y's chest, then that's where it is, not in your backpack, etc.

In a way its existential.
Anonymous
June 3, 2005 1:19:59 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

<don-ns@iCynic.com> wrote:
> Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> writes:
> > > > Also - just like warriors and knights can't get the best weapons
> > > > without killing things, this makes it so that casters can't get the
> > > > best spells without killing things.
> > >
> > > Flawed comparison. Melee have a huge variety of weapons and armor
> > > available to them, with the best ones coming from high level raid mobs.
> > > Casters get their gear the same way.
> > > Spell are an entirely different ball of wax.
> >
> > "Casters have a huge variety of spells available to them, with the best ones
> > coming from high level raid mobs."
> >
> > Doesn't sound all that different to me. I guess maybe it would if I had one
> > of those false senses of entitlement that I see displayed far too often (in
> > life as well as in the game).
>
> I'll admit I don't know the high-level game yet, but I think the
> argument is that casters do NOT have a huge variety of NEW spells
> at, say, level 70. The comparison would be to imagine if there
> were about a dozen items that are specifically available to a
> Warrior at required level 70, available only as rare drops and/or
> from raids, and at least, oh, 4-6 of those items make a huge
> difference to the effectiveness of the Warrior compared to any
> other items they might have. Usually, for the melees, they can
> find other gear that gives them a significant fraction of the same
> effectiveness.

You are so backwards in this perspective that I really can't imagine
changing your way of thinking.

For warriors at elemental level, there is *one* sword. For warriors at Time
level, there is *one* sword. Yeah, they can be a lesser warrior and settle
for an alternative *lesser* sword, but then, the spells I had cast on me at
65 are still just as effective at level 70.


> Thus, a melee type can go a variety of places and
> end up with, if not the most effective gear, at least something
> that comes close, whereas a caster who doesn't spend an eternity
> in the rune-dropping zones will never come anywhere close to being
> as effective as a caster who's managed to get the spell drops.

Define "anywhere close". Virtue still gives me a lot of hp. Vallon's
Quickening still puts me at the haste cap. Focus still maxes my stats.
Wizards still crit for nearly 10k with the old nukes. Hell, I get kei on my
pocket cleric because it lasts longer and I don't *need* Clairvoyance.

> I can't speak to how accurate this perception is, but have I at
> least gotten the argument straight?

Your argument is straight. Your perception is highly skewed. =)
Anonymous
June 3, 2005 3:18:15 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

<wrat@panix.com> wrote:
> In article <slrnd9urnt.2n5.faned@wyld.qx.net>,
> Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> wrote:
> >"Casters have a huge variety of spells available to them, with the best ones
> >coming from high level raid mobs."
> >
> >Doesn't sound all that different to me. I guess maybe it would if I had one
> >of those false senses of entitlement that I see displayed far too often (in
> >life as well as in the game).
>
> Ok, suppose to get that blade of carnage you needed to win the
> rolls on 15 other rare drops 12 of which were more or less useless to you?

Now you're arguing about useless spells. Completely different argument, and
not a very good basis to argue that spells aren't "loot". Wanna know how
many times I've spent "points" to get an item and ended up spending yet more
points to upgrade that item the very next week? Due to my playstyle, far
more than I should have. =)

> Now, let's add the fact that if I *don't* get the BoC I can
> buy a perfectly good 1HS in the bazaar and run a few dozen DoN's to
> buy augments that will make it as good as or better than that BoC,
> but the poor casters are still endlessly camping for their runes...

You're also speaking from a perspective that really doesn't make much sense
to me. Anybody who is level 70 can buy half a dozen blades of carnage and
have money left over, or should be able to at least. The non-raiders should
have even more money, in spite of needing to spend more. I don't get much
time to grind (and don't care for grinding anyway, thus my playstyle
choice). But I know how much money I can make when I grind, so I know how
much money every other level 70 has had and still has the opportunity to
make.

I have two twinks with BoCs. One is a ranger. =P

The other reason your perspective doesn't make much sense to me is that
casters simply *don't go* to the rune-dropping spots to grind. There can't
be a great deal of demand. I know this because I've lamented the lack of an
enchanter, druid, cleric, shaman while trying to get one of my rare grind
sessions in these spots, while seeing half a dozen of them lfg in WoS.
Anonymous
June 3, 2005 6:17:40 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Davian" <davian@nospammindspring.com> wrote in
news:HJCdnfUcLZRgGgLfRVn-pA@adelphia.com:

>
>
> "Graeme Faelban" <RichardRapier@netscape.net> wrote in message
> news:Xns966968A3A5AAErichardrapiernetscap@130.133.1.4...
>> Agreed. In the few times I have actually managed to get a group in
>> RSS, I have seen exactly one glowing rune drop, and I lost the roll.
>> The two Glowing runes I have recieved I got during guild raids. All
>> of the Greater runes I have recieved during guild raids, with the
>> exception of one that I won in MPG.
>>
>> It is a serious PITA to get the glowing runes particularly, if you
>> are not in a raiding guild, and even if you are, the drop rate is so
>> low that it will take a huge amount of time to get all the runes
>> needed by the guild.
>>
>
> I guess the herd still hasn't found Ruined City of Drannik then. Our
> regular group there was nearly finished with 69 and 70 runes when we
> quit for WoW and EQ2. All from single group activity.

I used to get groups there, but, as with RSS, it's hard to get groups
there anymore. Most of the people I know are busy with DoN progress.

--
On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons

On Steamfont in <Insanity Plea>
Graeme, 33 Dwarven Mystic, 24 Sage, Treasure Hunter
Aviv, 15 Gnome Brawler, 30 Provisioner
Anonymous
June 3, 2005 6:37:41 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> wrote in
news:slrnda0pof.76m.faned@wyld.qx.net:

> <don-ns@iCynic.com> wrote:
>> Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> writes:
>> > > > Also - just like warriors and knights can't get the best
>> > > > weapons without killing things, this makes it so that casters
>> > > > can't get the best spells without killing things.
>> > >
>> > > Flawed comparison. Melee have a huge variety of weapons and
>> > > armor available to them, with the best ones coming from high
>> > > level raid mobs. Casters get their gear the same way.
>> > > Spell are an entirely different ball of wax.
>> >
>> > "Casters have a huge variety of spells available to them, with the
>> > best ones coming from high level raid mobs."
>> >
>> > Doesn't sound all that different to me. I guess maybe it would if
>> > I had one of those false senses of entitlement that I see displayed
>> > far too often (in life as well as in the game).
>>
>> I'll admit I don't know the high-level game yet, but I think the
>> argument is that casters do NOT have a huge variety of NEW spells
>> at, say, level 70. The comparison would be to imagine if there
>> were about a dozen items that are specifically available to a
>> Warrior at required level 70, available only as rare drops and/or
>> from raids, and at least, oh, 4-6 of those items make a huge
>> difference to the effectiveness of the Warrior compared to any
>> other items they might have. Usually, for the melees, they can
>> find other gear that gives them a significant fraction of the same
>> effectiveness.
>
> You are so backwards in this perspective that I really can't imagine
> changing your way of thinking.
>
> For warriors at elemental level, there is *one* sword. For warriors
> at Time level, there is *one* sword. Yeah, they can be a lesser
> warrior and settle for an alternative *lesser* sword, but then, the
> spells I had cast on me at 65 are still just as effective at level 70.
>
>> Thus, a melee type can go a variety of places and
>> end up with, if not the most effective gear, at least something
>> that comes close, whereas a caster who doesn't spend an eternity
>> in the rune-dropping zones will never come anywhere close to being as
>> effective as a caster who's managed to get the spell drops.
>
> Define "anywhere close". Virtue still gives me a lot of hp. Vallon's
> Quickening still puts me at the haste cap. Focus still maxes my
> stats. Wizards still crit for nearly 10k with the old nukes. Hell, I
> get kei on my pocket cleric because it lasts longer and I don't *need*
> Clairvoyance.

I do agree that as far as most of the buffs are concerned, the spells are
just nice to have, not all that essential. There are a few spells that
make a huge difference to what the caster can take on, both with a group
and solo, that there is no other method of obtaining. The high level
enchanter mez is one that comes to mind immediately, the new shaman
heals, particularly the Heal over time, off hand I don't know for sure
what others for other classes, but there are likely one or two for each
class that really make a huge difference. For a warrior, it doesn't
really matter if they are using a BoC, or a DoN sword with a basically
identical effect.

>
>> I can't speak to how accurate this perception is, but have I at least
>> gotten the argument straight?
>
> Your argument is straight. Your perception is highly skewed. =)
>

I can see both sides of the arguement personally. In the end, the guild
I am in has chosen to treat the runes as standard loot for the most part,
and I have no real issues with that.

--
On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons

On Steamfont in <Insanity Plea>
Graeme, 33 Dwarven Mystic, 24 Sage, Treasure Hunter
Aviv, 15 Gnome Brawler, 30 Provisioner
Anonymous
June 3, 2005 8:35:35 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> wrote in
news:slrnda10m8.76m.faned@wyld.qx.net:

> <wrat@panix.com> wrote:
>> In article <slrnd9urnt.2n5.faned@wyld.qx.net>,
>> Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> wrote:
>> >"Casters have a huge variety of spells available to them, with the
>> >best ones coming from high level raid mobs."
>> >
>> >Doesn't sound all that different to me. I guess maybe it would if I
>> >had one of those false senses of entitlement that I see displayed
>> >far too often (in life as well as in the game).
>>
>> Ok, suppose to get that blade of carnage you needed to win the
>> rolls on 15
>> other rare drops 12 of which were more or less useless to you?
>
> Now you're arguing about useless spells. Completely different
> argument, and not a very good basis to argue that spells aren't
> "loot". Wanna know how many times I've spent "points" to get an item
> and ended up spending yet more points to upgrade that item the very
> next week? Due to my playstyle, far more than I should have. =)
>
>> Now, let's add the fact that if I *don't* get the BoC I can
>> buy a perfectly good 1HS in the bazaar and run a few dozen DoN's to
>> buy augments that will make it as good as or better than that BoC,
>> but the poor casters are still endlessly camping for their runes...
>
> You're also speaking from a perspective that really doesn't make much
> sense to me. Anybody who is level 70 can buy half a dozen blades of
> carnage and have money left over, or should be able to at least. The
> non-raiders should have even more money, in spite of needing to spend
> more. I don't get much time to grind (and don't care for grinding
> anyway, thus my playstyle choice). But I know how much money I can
> make when I grind, so I know how much money every other level 70 has
> had and still has the opportunity to make.
>
> I have two twinks with BoCs. One is a ranger. =P
>
> The other reason your perspective doesn't make much sense to me is
> that casters simply *don't go* to the rune-dropping spots to grind.
> There can't be a great deal of demand. I know this because I've
> lamented the lack of an enchanter, druid, cleric, shaman while trying
> to get one of my rare grind sessions in these spots, while seeing half
> a dozen of them lfg in WoS.
>

I'd love to hit the rune dropping spots (glowing only at this point)
myself, I am just finding it impossible to get a group going to hit them,
everyone wants to do DoN or WoS, or MPG (where glowing runes can
theoretically drop, but for all practical purposes do not).

--
On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons

On Steamfont in <Insanity Plea>
Graeme, 33 Dwarven Mystic, 24 Sage, Treasure Hunter
Aviv, 15 Gnome Brawler, 30 Provisioner
Anonymous
June 7, 2005 2:33:55 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Graeme Faelban <RichardRapier@netscape.net> writes:

>Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> wrote in
>news:slrnda0pof.76m.faned@wyld.qx.net:

>> <don-ns@iCynic.com> wrote:
>>> Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> writes:
>>> > > > Also - just like warriors and knights can't get the best
>>> > > > weapons without killing things, this makes it so that casters
>>> > > > can't get the best spells without killing things.
>>> > >
>>> > > Flawed comparison. Melee have a huge variety of weapons and
>>> > > armor available to them, with the best ones coming from high
>>> > > level raid mobs. Casters get their gear the same way.
>>> > > Spell are an entirely different ball of wax.
>>> >
>>> > "Casters have a huge variety of spells available to them, with the
>>> > best ones coming from high level raid mobs."
>>> >
>>> > Doesn't sound all that different to me. I guess maybe it would if
>>> > I had one of those false senses of entitlement that I see displayed
>>> > far too often (in life as well as in the game).

Coming into this thread a little late, but...

Your gear doesn't all of a sudden stop working when you go into
a higher level zone. Yes, some of your weapon procs might mitigate
or be resisted. But for spells, some of those totally stop
working on mobs higher than level X. Can't harmony/paci/mez, etc...
I'm guessing all your discs still function pretty much as they always
have. But casting on a mob and seeing "your target is unaffected"
repeatly really bites, because that spell you have is now worthless
at that level. For gear, you are still getting those stat and hp
upgrades, and that sword you have will still do some damage.
Anonymous
June 7, 2005 2:33:56 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

<mpp@mail.mppsystems.com> wrote:
> Graeme Faelban <RichardRapier@netscape.net> writes:
>
> >Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> wrote in
> >news:slrnda0pof.76m.faned@wyld.qx.net:
>
> >> <don-ns@iCynic.com> wrote:
> >>> Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> writes:
> >>> > > > Also - just like warriors and knights can't get the best
> >>> > > > weapons without killing things, this makes it so that casters
> >>> > > > can't get the best spells without killing things.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Flawed comparison. Melee have a huge variety of weapons and
> >>> > > armor available to them, with the best ones coming from high
> >>> > > level raid mobs. Casters get their gear the same way.
> >>> > > Spell are an entirely different ball of wax.
> >>> >
> >>> > "Casters have a huge variety of spells available to them, with the
> >>> > best ones coming from high level raid mobs."
> >>> >
> >>> > Doesn't sound all that different to me. I guess maybe it would if
> >>> > I had one of those false senses of entitlement that I see displayed
> >>> > far too often (in life as well as in the game).
>
> Coming into this thread a little late, but...
>
> Your gear doesn't all of a sudden stop working when you go into
> a higher level zone. Yes, some of your weapon procs might mitigate
> or be resisted. But for spells, some of those totally stop
> working on mobs higher than level X. Can't harmony/paci/mez, etc...

In the process of being changed as we speak. And warriors are the only
class that didn't have *something* that was level limited anyway.

> I'm guessing all your discs still function pretty much as they always
> have. But casting on a mob and seeing "your target is unaffected"
> repeatly really bites, because that spell you have is now worthless
> at that level. For gear, you are still getting those stat and hp
> upgrades, and that sword you have will still do some damage.

Valid argument if, and only if, *all* your spells are acquired in the same
manner as 69/70 spells (which of course they aren't). Mere days into the
release of the OoW expansion my pocket cleric had several spells, but my
main monk had yet to get any sort of upgrade. Now months after the release
my pocket cleric and pocket shaman have all their 66-68 spells, as well as
multiple gear upgrades (being alts they had a lower bar on equipment),
whereas I have a single upgrade from the OoW expansion, my 70 disc, and am
still lacking my 69 disc (have a streak of more than 50 lost rolls on a
level 69 rune, I think I'm about to set a record).
Anonymous
June 7, 2005 6:30:48 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> wrote in
news:slrndabbic.76m.faned@wyld.qx.net:

> <mpp@mail.mppsystems.com> wrote:
>> Graeme Faelban <RichardRapier@netscape.net> writes:
>>
>> >Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> wrote in
>> >news:slrnda0pof.76m.faned@wyld.qx.net:
>>
>> >> <don-ns@iCynic.com> wrote:
>> >>> Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> writes:
>> >>> > > > Also - just like warriors and knights can't get the best
>> >>> > > > weapons without killing things, this makes it so that
>> >>> > > > casters can't get the best spells without killing things.
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > Flawed comparison. Melee have a huge variety of weapons and
>> >>> > > armor available to them, with the best ones coming from high
>> >>> > > level raid mobs. Casters get their gear the same way.
>> >>> > > Spell are an entirely different ball of wax.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > "Casters have a huge variety of spells available to them, with
>> >>> > the best ones coming from high level raid mobs."
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Doesn't sound all that different to me. I guess maybe it would
>> >>> > if I had one of those false senses of entitlement that I see
>> >>> > displayed far too often (in life as well as in the game).
>>
>> Coming into this thread a little late, but...
>>
>> Your gear doesn't all of a sudden stop working when you go into
>> a higher level zone. Yes, some of your weapon procs might mitigate
>> or be resisted. But for spells, some of those totally stop working
>> on mobs higher than level X. Can't harmony/paci/mez, etc...
>
> In the process of being changed as we speak. And warriors are the
> only class that didn't have *something* that was level limited anyway.
>
>> I'm guessing all your discs still function pretty much as they always
>> have. But casting on a mob and seeing "your target is unaffected"
>> repeatly really bites, because that spell you have is now worthless
>> at that level. For gear, you are still getting those stat and hp
>> upgrades, and that sword you have will still do some damage.
>
> Valid argument if, and only if, *all* your spells are acquired in the
> same manner as 69/70 spells (which of course they aren't). Mere days
> into the release of the OoW expansion my pocket cleric had several
> spells, but my main monk had yet to get any sort of upgrade. Now
> months after the release my pocket cleric and pocket shaman have all
> their 66-68 spells, as well as multiple gear upgrades (being alts they
> had a lower bar on equipment), whereas I have a single upgrade from
> the OoW expansion, my 70 disc, and am still lacking my 69 disc (have a
> streak of more than 50 lost rolls on a level 69 rune, I think I'm
> about to set a record).
>

The problem is, it's exactly some of those 69/70 spells that are needed
in order to once again be able to have a spell that works at that level.

I had been running quite a streak on the 70 runes myself, but at least I
have my level 70 HoT now, which makes a huge difference in my ability to
heal.

--
On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons

On Steamfont in <Insanity Plea>
Graeme, 33 Dwarven Mystic, 24 Sage, Treasure Hunter
Aviv, 15 Gnome Brawler, 30 Provisioner
Anonymous
June 7, 2005 6:30:49 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

<RichardRapier@netscape.net> wrote:
> Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> wrote in
> news:slrndabbic.76m.faned@wyld.qx.net:
>
> > <mpp@mail.mppsystems.com> wrote:
> >> Graeme Faelban <RichardRapier@netscape.net> writes:
> >>
> >> >Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> wrote in
> >> >news:slrnda0pof.76m.faned@wyld.qx.net:
> >>
> >> >> <don-ns@iCynic.com> wrote:
> >> >>> Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> writes:
> >> >>> > > > Also - just like warriors and knights can't get the best
> >> >>> > > > weapons without killing things, this makes it so that
> >> >>> > > > casters can't get the best spells without killing things.
> >> >>> > >
> >> >>> > > Flawed comparison. Melee have a huge variety of weapons and
> >> >>> > > armor available to them, with the best ones coming from high
> >> >>> > > level raid mobs. Casters get their gear the same way.
> >> >>> > > Spell are an entirely different ball of wax.
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > "Casters have a huge variety of spells available to them, with
> >> >>> > the best ones coming from high level raid mobs."
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > Doesn't sound all that different to me. I guess maybe it would
> >> >>> > if I had one of those false senses of entitlement that I see
> >> >>> > displayed far too often (in life as well as in the game).
> >>
> >> Coming into this thread a little late, but...
> >>
> >> Your gear doesn't all of a sudden stop working when you go into
> >> a higher level zone. Yes, some of your weapon procs might mitigate
> >> or be resisted. But for spells, some of those totally stop working
> >> on mobs higher than level X. Can't harmony/paci/mez, etc...
> >
> > In the process of being changed as we speak. And warriors are the
> > only class that didn't have *something* that was level limited anyway.
> >
> >> I'm guessing all your discs still function pretty much as they always
> >> have. But casting on a mob and seeing "your target is unaffected"
> >> repeatly really bites, because that spell you have is now worthless
> >> at that level. For gear, you are still getting those stat and hp
> >> upgrades, and that sword you have will still do some damage.
> >
> > Valid argument if, and only if, *all* your spells are acquired in the
> > same manner as 69/70 spells (which of course they aren't). Mere days
> > into the release of the OoW expansion my pocket cleric had several
> > spells, but my main monk had yet to get any sort of upgrade. Now
> > months after the release my pocket cleric and pocket shaman have all
> > their 66-68 spells, as well as multiple gear upgrades (being alts they
> > had a lower bar on equipment), whereas I have a single upgrade from
> > the OoW expansion, my 70 disc, and am still lacking my 69 disc (have a
> > streak of more than 50 lost rolls on a level 69 rune, I think I'm
> > about to set a record).
> >
>
> The problem is, it's exactly some of those 69/70 spells that are needed
> in order to once again be able to have a spell that works at that level.

I believe that applies to a single spell. For all the others, there are
alternatives. Yeah, not as good, but if they were why would you bother to
keep trying for the better one.
Anonymous
June 8, 2005 1:52:51 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> wrote in
news:slrndabf8n.76m.faned@wyld.qx.net:

> <RichardRapier@netscape.net> wrote:
>> Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> wrote in
>> news:slrndabbic.76m.faned@wyld.qx.net:
>>
>> > <mpp@mail.mppsystems.com> wrote:
>> >> Graeme Faelban <RichardRapier@netscape.net> writes:
>> >>
>> >> >Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> wrote in
>> >> >news:slrnda0pof.76m.faned@wyld.qx.net:
>> >>
>> >> >> <don-ns@iCynic.com> wrote:
>> >> >>> Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> writes:
>> >> >>> > > > Also - just like warriors and knights can't get the best
>> >> >>> > > > weapons without killing things, this makes it so that
>> >> >>> > > > casters can't get the best spells without killing
>> >> >>> > > > things.
>> >> >>> > >
>> >> >>> > > Flawed comparison. Melee have a huge variety of weapons
>> >> >>> > > and armor available to them, with the best ones coming
>> >> >>> > > from high level raid mobs. Casters get their gear the
>> >> >>> > > same way. Spell are an entirely different ball of wax.
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > "Casters have a huge variety of spells available to them,
>> >> >>> > with the best ones coming from high level raid mobs."
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > Doesn't sound all that different to me. I guess maybe it
>> >> >>> > would if I had one of those false senses of entitlement that
>> >> >>> > I see displayed far too often (in life as well as in the
>> >> >>> > game).
>> >>
>> >> Coming into this thread a little late, but...
>> >>
>> >> Your gear doesn't all of a sudden stop working when you go into
>> >> a higher level zone. Yes, some of your weapon procs might
>> >> mitigate or be resisted. But for spells, some of those totally
>> >> stop working on mobs higher than level X. Can't harmony/paci/mez,
>> >> etc...
>> >
>> > In the process of being changed as we speak. And warriors are the
>> > only class that didn't have *something* that was level limited
>> > anyway.
>> >
>> >> I'm guessing all your discs still function pretty much as they
>> >> always have. But casting on a mob and seeing "your target is
>> >> unaffected" repeatly really bites, because that spell you have is
>> >> now worthless at that level. For gear, you are still getting
>> >> those stat and hp upgrades, and that sword you have will still do
>> >> some damage.
>> >
>> > Valid argument if, and only if, *all* your spells are acquired in
>> > the same manner as 69/70 spells (which of course they aren't).
>> > Mere days into the release of the OoW expansion my pocket cleric
>> > had several spells, but my main monk had yet to get any sort of
>> > upgrade. Now months after the release my pocket cleric and pocket
>> > shaman have all their 66-68 spells, as well as multiple gear
>> > upgrades (being alts they had a lower bar on equipment), whereas I
>> > have a single upgrade from the OoW expansion, my 70 disc, and am
>> > still lacking my 69 disc (have a streak of more than 50 lost rolls
>> > on a level 69 rune, I think I'm about to set a record).
>> >
>>
>> The problem is, it's exactly some of those 69/70 spells that are
>> needed in order to once again be able to have a spell that works at
>> that level.
>
> I believe that applies to a single spell. For all the others, there
> are alternatives. Yeah, not as good, but if they were why would you
> bother to keep trying for the better one.
>

I'd have to look them over to be sure as to the exact number of spells,
but, yes, it is a minority of the spells, certainly, and there are
alternatives to most of the spells that are just not as good.

--
On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons

On Steamfont in <Insanity Plea>
Graeme, 33 Dwarven Mystic, 24 Sage, Treasure Hunter
Aviv, 15 Gnome Brawler, 30 Provisioner
!