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RANT: Verizon Wireless Customer Service and Web Site

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March 29, 2005 10:29:41 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

I'm about 16 months into my 24-month contract with Verizon Wireless.
I will say, their actual wireless service is terrific. I get great
reception with my Nokia 3589i. The calls are clear, rarely do they
drop, and I get service virtually everywhere I go, even outside of
major cities. It seems far superior to the AT&T TDMA service I
dropped when I switched.

But Customer Service has been very uneven. Sometimes I get a good,
professional CS agent, but too often I get an uncooperative,
borderline unprofessional agent. Last month, for example, I called to
complain about a Get-It-Now charge ($2.99) that had come about
apparently because my Nokia phone was unlocked in my pocket (I am
religious about locking it, but now and then I forget). She insisted
that it could not have been ordered by accident (impossible! she
said) even though I certainly did not order it and no one else did.
She was condescending and not helpful, saying she would take off the
charge "this time" but that they wouldn't in the future.

(Not the first time I've had this kind of call with Verizon CS.)

A few days later I tried to pay my bill online. The website was
unable to process my CC payment, suggesting I call some 1-800 number,
which I didn't feel like dropping everything to do at that moment. I
forgot to call or try to pay again, and this month I got dinged with a
$5 late charge - PLUS the snippy agent from last month didn't remove
my $2.99 charge as she promised!

I tried to pay my bill online again and it refused to accept my credit
card, saying the address didn't match the one in their database. So I
called CS again. (I changed my mailing address about six weeks ago
with Verizon and everyone else.) This time I got a helpful guy who
was professional and almost cheerful. He tried to run through my
credit card again but he too could not get it to process. I gave him
the address on my Verizon bill, and he said American Express disputed
the address - despite the fact that my AMEX address was identical to
my Verizon address on both bills, despite the fact that I'd used this
same card for months to pay my Verizon bill before the address change.
He told me I had to call American Express to clear it up. I had to
use a different credit card. (Other vendors accept my Amex card no
problem since the address change.)

The guy did take off the $5 late charge and the $2.99 fee from last
month, and he didn't even argue about it, so I give him points for
that.

Then I tried to send feedback to Verizon Wireless from their website,
after logging into my account. It gave me one of those "contact us"
forms and wanted my username and password (or last-4-SSN) even though
I was already logged into my Verizon account (requiring my PIN). I
gave them my PIN again and typed my message. About two hours after I
sent it, I got a bounce saying my password didn't match and Verizon
refused to accept my message! Of course, I didn't have a copy of what
I had typed and it was all gone. Never mind - no point in bothering
again.

So the question is, do I wait until December when my contract is up to
switch providers or do I incur the $175 ETF fee now? Petty as it
seems, I'm fed up with the nuisance of dealing with Verizon. AT&T had
poor cell service when I left, but their customer service was light
years better than these people (and their website worked well whenever
I used it). I'm tempted to pay the $175 to leave and try T-Mobile
(where I would save $10/month with a similiar wireless plan, because I
already subscribe to T-Mobile Hotspot), so in effect it would cost me
only $115 to leave now. I'd almost rather pay $175 than giving $240+
more to these people for six more months of service. I know T-Mobile
service isn't as good as Verizon's (not sure I care at this point),
but I hear their CS is terrific.

Andrew
--
----> Portland, Oregon, USA <----
*******************************************************************
----> http://www.bizave.com <---- Photo Albums and Portland Info
----> To Email me remove "MYSHOES" from email address
*******************************************************************
March 29, 2005 10:29:42 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

On 29 Mar 2005 06:29:41 GMT, usenetMYSHOES@bizaveMYSHOES.com (Andrew)
wrote:

>So the question is, do I wait until December when my contract is up to
>switch providers or do I incur the $175 ETF fee now? Petty as it
>seems, I'm fed up with the nuisance of dealing with Verizon. AT&T had
>poor cell service when I left, but their customer service was light
>years better than these people (and their website worked well whenever
>I used it). I'm tempted to pay the $175 to leave and try T-Mobile
>(where I would save $10/month with a similiar wireless plan, because I
>already subscribe to T-Mobile Hotspot), so in effect it would cost me
>only $115 to leave now. I'd almost rather pay $175 than giving $240+
>more to these people for six more months of service. I know T-Mobile
>service isn't as good as Verizon's (not sure I care at this point),
>but I hear their CS is terrific.

It sounds like you don't like to do business by phone.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Anonymous
a b F Wireless
March 29, 2005 12:22:38 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Bye,
Now pester some other group!


"Andrew" <usenetMYSHOES@bizaveMYSHOES.com> wrote in message
news:czcasdddhj58824417411@bizaveMYSHOES.com...
> I'm about 16 months into my 24-month contract with Verizon Wireless.
> I will say, their actual wireless service is terrific. I get great
> reception with my Nokia 3589i. The calls are clear, rarely do they
> drop, and I get service virtually everywhere I go, even outside of
> major cities. It seems far superior to the AT&T TDMA service I
> dropped when I switched.
>
> But Customer Service has been very uneven. Sometimes I get a good,
> professional CS agent, but too often I get an uncooperative,
> borderline unprofessional agent. Last month, for example, I called to
> complain about a Get-It-Now charge ($2.99) that had come about
> apparently because my Nokia phone was unlocked in my pocket (I am
> religious about locking it, but now and then I forget). She insisted
> that it could not have been ordered by accident (impossible! she
> said) even though I certainly did not order it and no one else did.
> She was condescending and not helpful, saying she would take off the
> charge "this time" but that they wouldn't in the future.
>
> (Not the first time I've had this kind of call with Verizon CS.)
>
> A few days later I tried to pay my bill online. The website was
> unable to process my CC payment, suggesting I call some 1-800 number,
> which I didn't feel like dropping everything to do at that moment. I
> forgot to call or try to pay again, and this month I got dinged with a
> $5 late charge - PLUS the snippy agent from last month didn't remove
> my $2.99 charge as she promised!
>
> I tried to pay my bill online again and it refused to accept my credit
> card, saying the address didn't match the one in their database. So I
> called CS again. (I changed my mailing address about six weeks ago
> with Verizon and everyone else.) This time I got a helpful guy who
> was professional and almost cheerful. He tried to run through my
> credit card again but he too could not get it to process. I gave him
> the address on my Verizon bill, and he said American Express disputed
> the address - despite the fact that my AMEX address was identical to
> my Verizon address on both bills, despite the fact that I'd used this
> same card for months to pay my Verizon bill before the address change.
> He told me I had to call American Express to clear it up. I had to
> use a different credit card. (Other vendors accept my Amex card no
> problem since the address change.)
>
> The guy did take off the $5 late charge and the $2.99 fee from last
> month, and he didn't even argue about it, so I give him points for
> that.
>
> Then I tried to send feedback to Verizon Wireless from their website,
> after logging into my account. It gave me one of those "contact us"
> forms and wanted my username and password (or last-4-SSN) even though
> I was already logged into my Verizon account (requiring my PIN). I
> gave them my PIN again and typed my message. About two hours after I
> sent it, I got a bounce saying my password didn't match and Verizon
> refused to accept my message! Of course, I didn't have a copy of what
> I had typed and it was all gone. Never mind - no point in bothering
> again.
>
> So the question is, do I wait until December when my contract is up to
> switch providers or do I incur the $175 ETF fee now? Petty as it
> seems, I'm fed up with the nuisance of dealing with Verizon. AT&T had
> poor cell service when I left, but their customer service was light
> years better than these people (and their website worked well whenever
> I used it). I'm tempted to pay the $175 to leave and try T-Mobile
> (where I would save $10/month with a similiar wireless plan, because I
> already subscribe to T-Mobile Hotspot), so in effect it would cost me
> only $115 to leave now. I'd almost rather pay $175 than giving $240+
> more to these people for six more months of service. I know T-Mobile
> service isn't as good as Verizon's (not sure I care at this point),
> but I hear their CS is terrific.
>
> Andrew
> --
> ----> Portland, Oregon, USA <----
> *******************************************************************
> ----> http://www.bizave.com <---- Photo Albums and Portland Info
> ----> To Email me remove "MYSHOES" from email address
> *******************************************************************
>
Related resources
March 29, 2005 12:48:41 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

> So the question is, do I wait until December when my
> contract is up to switch providers or do I incur the $175
> ETF fee now?

Leave now.

-Frank
Anonymous
a b F Wireless
March 29, 2005 1:38:10 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Andrew wrote:
>
> So the question is, do I wait until December when my
> contract is up to switch providers or do I incur the $175
> ETF fee now? Petty as it seems, I'm fed up with the
> nuisance of dealing with Verizon.

Please pay the $175 now.
We actually took up a collection for your ETF some
time ago. We mailed you a check but it was returned
as "wrong address"... we can only guess it was too
much trouble for you to call someone and change it.

-Quick
Anonymous
a b F Wireless
March 29, 2005 1:58:12 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Quick wrote:
> Andrew wrote:
>>
>> So the question is, do I wait until December when my
>> contract is up to switch providers or do I incur the $175
>> ETF fee now? Petty as it seems, I'm fed up with the
>> nuisance of dealing with Verizon.
>
> Please pay the $175 now.
> We actually took up a collection for your ETF some
> time ago. We mailed you a check but it was returned
> as "wrong address"... we can only guess it was too
> much trouble for you to call someone and change it.

Late breaking news: As loyal VZW customers we were
embarrassed by the shoddy treatment you so unjustly
received and decided to put some considerable effort
into investigating your problems. After employing a vast
amount of resources we have tracked down exactly
what happened and the cause of your problems.

It seems that while your unlocked, candy bar style,
Nokia phone was in your pocket it dialed American
Express and and entered a request to have your
verification address revert to your old address while
keeping your billing address the same.

We are all mortified by this discovery and (again)
embarrassed that VZW customer service didn't
immediately identify the problem and handle the
arrangements with American Express to get it all
straightened out. This should have all been done
without you having to go through the pain and
inconvenience of calling CS the first time. After all
it wouldn't have happened if you hadn't been
connected through VZW's network. (The rude
treatment was absolutely inexcusable).

We have taken up another collection to raise a
minimum of a few thousand dollars to partially
compensate you for your extreme pain, suffering,
and mental anguish. We hope the very best for
you T-mobile.

-Quick
March 29, 2005 9:45:39 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Quick <quick7135-news@nospamyahoo.com> wrote:
: Andrew wrote:
: >
: > So the question is, do I wait until December when my
: > contract is up to switch providers or do I incur the $175
: > ETF fee now? Petty as it seems, I'm fed up with the
: > nuisance of dealing with Verizon.

: Please pay the $175 now.
: We actually took up a collection for your ETF some
: time ago. We mailed you a check but it was returned
: as "wrong address"... we can only guess it was too
: much trouble for you to call someone and change it.

If you fumbled my address, you must work for Verizon! Because
every other company I do business with has no trouble with it.

Andrew
--
----> Portland, Oregon, USA <----
*******************************************************************
----> http://www.bizave.com <---- Photo Albums and Portland Info
----> To Email me remove "MYSHOES" from email address
*******************************************************************
March 29, 2005 10:15:02 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Quick <quick7135-news@nospamyahoo.com> wrote:
: Late breaking news: As loyal VZW customers we were
: embarrassed by the shoddy treatment you so unjustly
: received and decided to put some considerable effort
: into investigating your problems. After employing a vast
: amount of resources we have tracked down exactly
: what happened and the cause of your problems.

Let us know when Verizon actually wants to receive feedback from
customers, instead of having their web page ask for a 2nd password and
then reject the comments (and not attaching a copy of them).

By the way: let's keep this thread going as long as possible so as
many people as possible will read my comments about Verizon! More
potential new customers need to know what this company is like.

Andrew
--
----> Portland, Oregon, USA <----
*******************************************************************
----> http://www.bizave.com <---- Photo Albums and Portland Info
----> To Email me remove "MYSHOES" from email address
*******************************************************************
Anonymous
a b F Wireless
March 30, 2005 12:43:43 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

On 29 Mar 2005 06:29:41 GMT, usenetMYSHOES@bizaveMYSHOES.com (Andrew)
wrote:

>So the question is, do I wait until December when my contract is up to
>switch providers or do I incur the $175 ETF fee now? Petty as it
>seems, I'm fed up with the nuisance of dealing with Verizon.

Might I suggest an alternative, if it is feasible for you.

Stop dealing with VZW through their web site and over the phone. Find
a VZW store near you. Stop by and address these issues with the
manager. I'm not saying you will get better results on the events
that have past, but I've always found VZW *MUCH* easier to deal with
when I'm standing there talking to a real, live person. Whenever I
had to deal with tech support over the phone, it was generally a
frustrating experience. But when I stop by the store and take it up
with them, it seems the issues get resolved much faster and with less
aggravation.

Just something to consider.
March 30, 2005 3:42:46 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

George Orwell <nobody@mixmaster.it> wrote:
: In article <czcasdddhj58824417411@bizaveMYSHOES.com>
: usenetMYSHOES@bizaveMYSHOES.com (Andrew) wrote:

: First complaint.......the Get It Now problem. WIth all due respect, it
: was your fault and just because it was an accident, doesn't mean Verizon
: has to pay for it. "I'm sorry officer but I wanted to stop at the red
: light but by mistake, hit the gas instead of the brake and went through
: it." Do you think that would work?

Actually, my main complaint is that the CS agent said my explanation
of how the Get It Now problem was IMPOSSIBLE. I admitted that my
phone had been unlocked but she said it could not have happened that
way. Either I ordered it and was lying, ordered it and forgot, or
someone else using my phone ordered it, according to her. None of
those happened - it happend because the phone was unlocked. Her
refusal to believe me annoyed me and her attitude, talking down to me
like a child ("Do you know who else might have had access to your
phone?" Answer: NO ONE!!) was rude. I should have asked for a
supervisor, but I did not.

Also, she promised to remove the charge anyway ("but only this once")
and she did not remove it as promised.

: Your second complaint holds more water though. If there is a problem with
: THEIR online pay, then they should either be ready to forget the late
: fee, which shouldn't have been charged had you talked to them
: immediately, and fix their problem. I have been associated with online
: activities since 100 baud modems and I still have problems with online
: buying and paying. This is one more reason I have to be leary.

The CS agent I talked to yesterday did remove the late charge without
argument, which was good, but it's annoying I have to take the time to
call them and ask in the first place. It's still annoying that other
companies accept my credit card just fine after the address change but
Verizon can't or won't.

: I have found Verizon to be pretty good at responding to online mail. It
: used to be much faster getting a reply but lately, it's about 20 hours.
: They always ask for your SS number, even though you're logged on just to
: claify that it's you. That's there SOP and we have to live with it. No
: biggie, just type in the 4 numbers.

I hate giving any part of my SSN number online. That's why I gave my
PIN (which I guess I've found out is not the same as a password). I
did not ask for any changes to my account; I can understand wanting to
be cautious, for my own benefit, in not making changes without
verification, but not accepting basic feedback without a 2nd password
is silly. If I'm logged into my account with one password, that
should be enough to get them to accept feedback, no?

Even so, if I gave an invalid password (my PIN), the website should
have told me at the at time and allowed me to go back and try to
re-send, so I didn't have to start all over an hour or day later and
re-type the message I'd composed to them.

: As for switching, from my experience with providers, you will have
: problems with all of them....maybe not the same problem buy a problem
: nevertheless. I surely wouldn't give them the satisfaction of gettting my
: $175 for switching however, no provider for that matter. I would live it
: out, and while you are, VERY CAREFULLY look into other providers and find
: that while you're dating, they look great. Once married, they still wake
: up in the morning with no makeup.

For what it's worth, I am already a T-Mobile Hotspot customer, and I
know their CS has been decent when I've talked to them. Friends have
given me other positive anecdotes about T-Mobile. I fully expect not
to get signal in places where Verizon would especially away from
cities, but I'm starting to think I can live with that, as long as
basic service is good and I don't have constant problems with the web
site and snotty CS people. As a company that is trying to gain on the
big boys, T-Mobile can't afford to piss off their customers and stay
in business the way a complacent company like Verizon apparently can.

I'll probably stick it out with Verizon for six more months (grumble,
grumble), but I'm not happy about it.

Andrew
--
----> Portland, Oregon, USA <----
*******************************************************************
----> http://www.bizave.com <---- Photo Albums and Portland Info
----> To Email me remove "MYSHOES" from email address
*******************************************************************
Anonymous
a b F Wireless
March 30, 2005 3:42:47 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Ok Verizon has many CS people and some are trained to not credit many
things since most of what customers say like: *I did not buy this! It
was an accedent! I sent the payment over a week ago!* Most of the time
the customer is lying to get something for nothing. In reality
sometimes it is true about those things.
Verizon systems with there Website and Payment system are very touchy
due to fraud.
Verizon Wireless is company that does alot of sercurity so they don't
get screwed like some other provider have in the past. Sometimes it is
for the good and for the worse.

I don't know T-Mobile's coverage in Portland. I would say it will be
good, but not like VZW is overall.

If you register here I can send you more info to help you in a Private
Message


--
agentHibby
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cell Phone Forums: http://cellphoneforums.net
View this thread: http://cellphoneforums.net/t171023.html
March 30, 2005 5:11:27 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

George Orwell <nobody@mixmaster.it> wrote:
: In article <curkrlarkr84923017611@bizaveMYSHOES.com>
: usenetMYSHOES@bizaveMYSHOES.com (Andrew) wrote:

: Understood. I had some hoops to jump through a few weeks ago when I
: forgot my id and was typing it incorrectly. After a few times, your
: account is "locked" and to unlock it, you have to give a pint of blood
: and buy a round of drinks I think. You send something then they send back
: a text messsage adn then you put that here and jam something else there
: and eventually, you actually get you account back! Verizon still has the
: best coverage in the area so I'll stick with them.

I was similarly locked out of my account with Verizon yesterday. I
don't know why - I hadn't even tried to login once, hadn't for a few
weeks, I was just automatically locked out and had to go through the
same process you did. Who knows, maybe someone was trying to break
into my account?

Andrew
--
----> Portland, Oregon, USA <----
*******************************************************************
----> http://www.bizave.com <---- Photo Albums and Portland Info
----> To Email me remove "MYSHOES" from email address
*******************************************************************
Anonymous
a b F Wireless
March 30, 2005 8:28:20 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

> The CS agent I talked to yesterday did remove the late charge without
> argument, which was good, but it's annoying I have to take the time to
> call them and ask in the first place. It's still annoying that other
> companies accept my credit card just fine after the address change but
> Verizon can't or won't.

If the card doesn't pass verification, they pay a higher fee for processing
it. Some companies accept it and go on, others are sticklers about 100%
address matching and reject any that doesn't match exactly. (I offer CC
payment and pay an extra 2% on mismatches or about $50 a month - fortunately
my CC processor doesn't flat out reject them. Many companies that ship goods
will reject such cards but i bill for services after they are provided so
i'm out the money if they pay with a fruadulent card anyway. )
March 30, 2005 11:27:08 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

The Ghost of General Lee <ghost@general.lee> wrote:
: On 29 Mar 2005 06:29:41 GMT, usenetMYSHOES@bizaveMYSHOES.com (Andrew)
: wrote:

: >So the question is, do I wait until December when my contract is up to
: >switch providers or do I incur the $175 ETF fee now? Petty as it
: >seems, I'm fed up with the nuisance of dealing with Verizon.

: Might I suggest an alternative, if it is feasible for you.

: Stop dealing with VZW through their web site and over the phone. Find
: a VZW store near you. Stop by and address these issues with the
: manager.

That's very sensible - thanks.

Andrew
--
----> Portland, Oregon, USA <----
*******************************************************************
----> http://www.bizave.com <---- Photo Albums and Portland Info
----> To Email me remove "MYSHOES" from email address
*******************************************************************
Anonymous
a b F Wireless
March 31, 2005 1:52:45 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

The Ghost of General Lee wrote:

> Stop dealing with VZW through their web site and over the phone. Find
> a VZW store near you.

Sorry General, my experience has been that the stores are the WORST
place to get customer service! At least here in Ohio. The only place I
can say I got treated politely and semi-competently was in Orlando, FL.

WHile Andrews story about the CS person on the phone is unfortunately
"typical" if you dont like what that person is saying, just say good bye
, and dial again. I've never had to call more than twice to get a
competent ear.

I had troubles with making a new phone work and got credits that almost
matched the months bill, so they DO give credit for problems. Ask if you
think you deserve it... you might get it. I've also NEVER paid a roaming
charge. I just called and they took it off my bill. Same with all the
other screw-ups.

Since my phone seems to work most everywhere I am I'll put up with a
little CS torture. The feedback I get is that the other phone companies
are MUCH worse!

-Pete
Anonymous
a b F Wireless
March 31, 2005 1:52:46 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

speedy wrote:
>
>
> The Ghost of General Lee wrote:
>
>> Stop dealing with VZW through their web site and over the phone. Find
>> a VZW store near you.
>
>
> Sorry General, my experience has been that the stores are the WORST
> place to get customer service! At least here in Ohio.

OK, I don't know how things are in Akron/Canton, but the stores up north are
pretty good. Used to frequent the Mentor and Independence stores, and
occasionally the one in Mayfield.

> WHile Andrews story about the CS person on the phone is unfortunately
> "typical" if you dont like what that person is saying, just say good bye
> , and dial again. I've never had to call more than twice to get a
> competent ear.

Good advice.

> I had troubles with making a new phone work and got credits that almost
> matched the months bill, so they DO give credit for problems. Ask if you
> think you deserve it... you might get it.

Hell yeah - Verizon is more liberal with service credits than any other carrier
I've ever used. Go ahead and ask - the worst thing that'll happen is, "Sorry,
we can't give you the credit" - but it seems like if you are having genuine
problems, they really are empowered to give the credits.

--
JustThe.net - Apple Valley, CA - http://JustThe.net/ - 888.480.4NET (4638)
Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / sjsobol@JustThe.net / PGP: 0xE3AE35ED

"The wisdom of a fool won't set you free"
--New Order, "Bizarre Love Triangle"
Anonymous
a b F Wireless
March 31, 2005 3:21:12 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:52:45 -0500, speedy <seedy@raex.com> wrote:

>
>
>The Ghost of General Lee wrote:
>
>> Stop dealing with VZW through their web site and over the phone. Find
>> a VZW store near you.
>
>Sorry General, my experience has been that the stores are the WORST
>place to get customer service! At least here in Ohio. The only place I
>can say I got treated politely and semi-competently was in Orlando, FL.

Sorry you've had the bad experiences. Not all stores are filled with
incompetent boobs. There are a couple of VZW stores around here I'll
never walk into again, but my local store has always given me great
service, all the way back to June, 1995 when they were Bell Atlantic
Mobile.

>WHile Andrews story about the CS person on the phone is unfortunately
>"typical" if you dont like what that person is saying, just say good bye
>, and dial again. I've never had to call more than twice to get a
>competent ear.

Yeah, over in the Echostar group we call that "CSR Roulette".

>I had troubles with making a new phone work and got credits that almost
>matched the months bill, so they DO give credit for problems. Ask if you
>think you deserve it... you might get it. I've also NEVER paid a roaming
>charge. I just called and they took it off my bill. Same with all the
>other screw-ups.

Case in point: One day long ago I went in to pay my bill. While the
CSR was working on the payment, I was recounting a service issue I had
with tech support a few months prior, and without my asking or without
even telling me she was doing so, she gave me 3 months credit.

>Since my phone seems to work most everywhere I am I'll put up with a
>little CS torture. The feedback I get is that the other phone companies
>are MUCH worse!

Last year, I was helping a "technically challenged" friend with a
problem with her Cingular service. I understood the issue better than
she did, so she gave the phone to me to explain it to the Cingular
rep. Talk about clueless! I talked to three reps (including one
supervisor) and got three different answers. They finally resorted to
sending her a new phone (twice), and the problem remained. I
initially told them I thought they had a cell site down. The first
rep confirmed they did and even mentioned a site number, but when we
got transferred to the other rep and supervisor, both denied any sites
were down. It turns out the first line rep was correct. Another two
week wait resulted in site maintenance being completed and service at
her home being restored.
Anonymous
a b F Wireless
March 31, 2005 3:21:13 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

The Ghost of General Lee wrote:

> rep. Talk about clueless! I talked to three reps (including one
> supervisor) and got three different answers.

I have this problem with Sprint sometimes. It's my biggest (really, my only)
complaint about their Customer Service operation. The CSRs are all very polite
and they *want* to help, but some of them are utterly clueless. Verizon seems
to have consistently better, more knowledgeable CSRs than any of the other
carriers; that's something I always liked about them. (This should not be
construed as an implication that VZW CSRs never do stupid stuff; they just do
stupid stuff a lot less often.)

--
JustThe.net - Apple Valley, CA - http://JustThe.net/ - 888.480.4NET (4638)
Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / sjsobol@JustThe.net / PGP: 0xE3AE35ED

"The wisdom of a fool won't set you free"
--New Order, "Bizarre Love Triangle"
Anonymous
a b F Wireless
April 6, 2005 2:36:44 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

In article <czcasdddhj58824417411@bizaveMYSHOES.com>,
usenetMYSHOES@bizaveMYSHOES.com says...
> But Customer Service has been very uneven. Sometimes I get a good,
> professional CS agent, but too often I get an uncooperative,
> borderline unprofessional agent. Last month, for example, I called to
> complain about a Get-It-Now charge ($2.99) that had come about
> apparently because my Nokia phone was unlocked in my pocket (I am
> religious about locking it, but now and then I forget). She insisted
> that it could not have been ordered by accident (impossible! she
> said) even though I certainly did not order it and no one else did.
> She was condescending and not helpful, saying she would take off the
> charge "this time" but that they wouldn't in the future.

Isn't the subscriber responsible for all charges made from their
device(s)? What makes the agent unprofessional and uncooperative because
they reinforce a known policy you agreed too?

> A few days later I tried to pay my bill online. The website was
> unable to process my CC payment, suggesting I call some 1-800 number,
> which I didn't feel like dropping everything to do at that moment. I
> forgot to call or try to pay again, and this month I got dinged with a
> $5 late charge - PLUS the snippy agent from last month didn't remove
> my $2.99 charge as she promised!

So the bill was paid late and there was a late charge applied to the
account. Aren't late charges part of the agreement made with the
company?

> This time I got a helpful guy who
> was professional and almost cheerful.
>
> The guy did take off the $5 late charge and the $2.99 fee from last
> month, and he didn't even argue about it, so I give him points for
> that.

So the agent gets points and is 'professional' for reversing legitimate
charges on the account. Perhaps a good customer experience but the
company must now absorb the $7.99 cost. Eventually they will pass these
costs back to the customer.

> So the question is, do I wait until December when my contract is up
> to switch providers or do I incur the $175 ETF fee now?

A personal decision you will have to make.

Bud Stein
April 7, 2005 12:47:12 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Bud Stein <rockymountainhigh@softhome.net> wrote:
: In article <czcasdddhj58824417411@bizaveMYSHOES.com>,
: usenetMYSHOES@bizaveMYSHOES.com says...
: > But Customer Service has been very uneven. Sometimes I get a good,
: > professional CS agent, but too often I get an uncooperative,
: > borderline unprofessional agent. Last month, for example, I called to
: > complain about a Get-It-Now charge ($2.99) that had come about
: > apparently because my Nokia phone was unlocked in my pocket (I am
: > religious about locking it, but now and then I forget). She insisted
: > that it could not have been ordered by accident (impossible! she
: > said) even though I certainly did not order it and no one else did.
: > She was condescending and not helpful, saying she would take off the
: > charge "this time" but that they wouldn't in the future.

: Isn't the subscriber responsible for all charges made from their
: device(s)? What makes the agent unprofessional and uncooperative because
: they reinforce a known policy you agreed too?

I'm sorry - apparently many of you just didn't understand what I
wrote. The CS agent did not *BELIEVE* me when I told her the game was
ordered due to my phone being unlocked. She didn't say, "The phone
was unlocked and therefore your fault" - she said it could not have
been ordered by accident. We didn't argue about whether it was my
responsibility or not - we argued over whether what I claimed had
happened could have happened (it did, despite what she said).

How would you feel if you called Verizon CS and were told by the agent
that what you said actually happened could not have happened? Would
you just shrug your sholders and say, "Oh, well. I guess my memory
must be failing me"??? Do you enjoy being called a liar by
representatives of the company you do business with every month?

I think it's unprofessional to argue with a customer and basically
call him a liar.

: > A few days later I tried to pay my bill online. The website was
: > unable to process my CC payment, suggesting I call some 1-800 number,
: > which I didn't feel like dropping everything to do at that moment. I
: > forgot to call or try to pay again, and this month I got dinged with a
: > $5 late charge - PLUS the snippy agent from last month didn't remove
: > my $2.99 charge as she promised!

: So the bill was paid late and there was a late charge applied to the
: account. Aren't late charges part of the agreement made with the
: company?

I tried to pay on their website but it was down. I was unable to pay
because their system, unlike every other bill pay system I use, would
no longer accept the credit card I had been using for months prior to
an address change. No one else has had trouble accepting the card
after the the address change - only Verizon. I don't know about you,
but I have a preferred credit card that I use, and it behooves me to
use the same card for everything.

Sure I'm responsible for paying the late charge, legally - I have
argument with that. But Verizon promotes the hell out of their
website. They constantly tell you to go to VerizonWireless.com to do
everything (because the more people who use the site instead of
calling CS, the fewer CS agents they have to hire, the lower their
costs). Is it fair that they promote their site so heavily and yet it
doesn't always work to accept payment, then try to stick me with a
late charge? (This isn't the first time I've had issues with
VerizonWireless.com). It was the least they could do to take off the
late charge, which they did.

: > This time I got a helpful guy who
: > was professional and almost cheerful.
: >
: > The guy did take off the $5 late charge and the $2.99 fee from last
: > month, and he didn't even argue about it, so I give him points for
: > that.

: So the agent gets points and is 'professional' for reversing legitimate
: charges on the account. Perhaps a good customer experience but the
: company must now absorb the $7.99 cost. Eventually they will pass these
: costs back to the customer.

What costs? That's $7.99 of profit they tried to make off of me by
hoping I wouldn't dispute the charges. Verizon didn't lose $5 because
my last month's $39.99 balance was paid a few days late (and because
next month's was paid three weeks early, in the same phone call, they
pretty much came out even on interest charges).

Does Verizon Wireless "lose" money because I'm ordering a game every
week? Should I feel guilty because I'm not ordering a game for $2.99
per week and that that $2.99 of "cost" is going to have to be passed
on to customers? Maybe I should get a more expensive Verizon plan so
I can pay them more money per month so they don't "lose" that money
every month? Seems to be your point of view...

I wish I could disable "Get It Now" from my phone without disabling
the ability to use my phone to put my laptop on the internet, but
Verizon has intentionally made this impossible. Why might that be?
How much more do you think Verizon racks up in fees because Get It Now
cannot be disabled by people like me who don't want it? How many
people besides me incur accidental charges like I did but never bother
to dispute them?

: > So the question is, do I wait until December when my contract is up
: > to switch providers or do I incur the $175 ETF fee now?

: A personal decision you will have to make.

Still have a few days before the end of my billing period to make up
my mind. Regardless, I am not renewing my Verizon contact in a few
months and I have certainly stopped recommending them to anyone,
unless they are willing to put up with spotty, sometimes
unprofessional customer service and a flakey website.

Andrew
--
----> Portland, Oregon, USA <----
*******************************************************************
----> http://www.bizave.com <---- Photo Albums and Portland Info
----> To Email me remove "MYSHOES" from email address
*******************************************************************
Anonymous
a b F Wireless
April 7, 2005 12:47:13 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"Andrew" <usenetMYSHOES@bizaveMYSHOES.com> wrote in message
news:uacuzcasd94242619211@bizaveMYSHOES.com...
> Bud Stein <rockymountainhigh@softhome.net> wrote:
> : In article <czcasdddhj58824417411@bizaveMYSHOES.com>,
> : usenetMYSHOES@bizaveMYSHOES.com says...
> : > But Customer Service has been very uneven. Sometimes I get a good,
> : > professional CS agent, but too often I get an uncooperative,
> : > borderline unprofessional agent. Last month, for example, I called to
> : > complain about a Get-It-Now charge ($2.99) that had come about
> : > apparently because my Nokia phone was unlocked in my pocket (I am
> : > religious about locking it, but now and then I forget). She insisted
> : > that it could not have been ordered by accident (impossible! she
> : > said) even though I certainly did not order it and no one else did.
> : > She was condescending and not helpful, saying she would take off the
> : > charge "this time" but that they wouldn't in the future.
>
> : Isn't the subscriber responsible for all charges made from their
> : device(s)? What makes the agent unprofessional and uncooperative
because
> : they reinforce a known policy you agreed too?
>
> I'm sorry - apparently many of you just didn't understand what I
> wrote. The CS agent did not *BELIEVE* me when I told her the game was
> ordered due to my phone being unlocked.

Most of us did understand what you wrote. Apparently you don't understand
that many of us don't believe you.

>She didn't say, "The phone
> was unlocked and therefore your fault" - she said it could not have
> been ordered by accident. We didn't argue about whether it was my
> responsibility or not - we argued over whether what I claimed had
> happened could have happened (it did, despite what she said).

Well, she has dealt with thousands of customers. I've followed this group
for a couple of years. I'll bet its safe to assume that your's is the first
instance of this either one of us has ever heard. IN fact, the odss of what
happened to you are probably the same as leaving my phone on the coffee
table and having my dog complete the order. BTW_ your's sounds just as
outrageous. Are you saying that I should get credit based on my story?

>
> How would you feel if you called Verizon CS and were told by the agent
> that what you said actually happened could not have happened?

News flash- their job is not to give every customer exactly what they feel
they are owed. They actually tell many people that they can't assist.

> Would
> you just shrug your sholders and say, "Oh, well. I guess my memory
> must be failing me"???

No- I would consider the believeability of my story before I called. In
this case, I would have eaten the charge.

>Do you enjoy being called a liar by
> representatives of the company you do business with every month?

No, but your story lacks an amazing amount of credibility.

>
> I think it's unprofessional to argue with a customer and basically
> call him a liar.

I think it's unrealistic and childish to think that a major corporation is
going to honor every request for credit that they receive.

>
> : > A few days later I tried to pay my bill online. The website was
> : > unable to process my CC payment, suggesting I call some 1-800 number,
> : > which I didn't feel like dropping everything to do at that moment. I
> : > forgot to call or try to pay again, and this month I got dinged with a
> : > $5 late charge - PLUS the snippy agent from last month didn't remove
> : > my $2.99 charge as she promised!
>
> : So the bill was paid late and there was a late charge applied to the
> : account. Aren't late charges part of the agreement made with the
> : company?
>
> I tried to pay on their website but it was down. I was unable to pay
> because their system, unlike every other bill pay system I use, would
> no longer accept the credit card I had been using for months prior to
> an address change.

No- you were either too uneducated or too lazy to try another method of
payment. Paying on the web is a convenience for the customer, not the only
method to remit payment. At no time did you try to call and pay.

> No one else has had trouble accepting the card
> after the the address change - only Verizon. I don't know about you,
> but I have a preferred credit card that I use, and it behooves me to
> use the same card for everything.

And now you can pay a late fee for your stubborness.

>
> Sure I'm responsible for paying the late charge, legally - I have
> argument with that.

No you don't- you were late paying. However, if you decide to take this to
court, please post the time and location of the hearing- it's coming up on
rereun season and I need a good laugh.

>But Verizon promotes the hell out of their
> website. They constantly tell you to go to VerizonWireless.com to do
> everything (because the more people who use the site instead of
> calling CS, the fewer CS agents they have to hire, the lower their
> costs).

True.

>Is it fair that they promote their site so heavily and yet it
> doesn't always work to accept payment, then try to stick me with a
> late charge?

Consider the late charge more of a dummy charge- you showed what a dummy you
were by being so lazy.

>(This isn't the first time I've had issues with
> VerizonWireless.com). It was the least they could do to take off the
> late charge, which they did.

No- it wasn't the least they could do. They did it as a courtesy. They
were legally owed the money. If you don't believe me, try this- use the
same excuse with your mortgage company next month. Let us know how that
goes.

>
>
> : > This time I got a helpful guy who
> : > was professional and almost cheerful.
> : >
> : > The guy did take off the $5 late charge and the $2.99 fee from last
> : > month, and he didn't even argue about it, so I give him points for
> : > that.
>
> : So the agent gets points and is 'professional' for reversing legitimate
> : charges on the account. Perhaps a good customer experience but the
> : company must now absorb the $7.99 cost. Eventually they will pass these
> : costs back to the customer.
>
> What costs? That's $7.99 of profit they tried to make off of me by
> hoping I wouldn't dispute the charges. Verizon didn't lose $5 because
> my last month's $39.99 balance was paid a few days late (and because
> next month's was paid three weeks early, in the same phone call, they
> pretty much came out even on interest charges).

You should brush up on your finances- the additional time costs them real
money in lost float and any short-term interest they might incur to cover
operational costs that were going to be paid with that late money. In
addition, they do want to make money off your stupidity and cause you a
little pain. It helps them in getting your money on time.

>
> Does Verizon Wireless "lose" money because I'm ordering a game every
> week? Should I feel guilty because I'm not ordering a game for $2.99
> per week and that that $2.99 of "cost" is going to have to be passed
> on to customers? Maybe I should get a more expensive Verizon plan so
> I can pay them more money per month so they don't "lose" that money
> every month? Seems to be your point of view...

Actually, that's not anybody's point. Now you're just sounding like a
whiney child.

>
> I wish I could disable "Get It Now" from my phone without disabling
> the ability to use my phone to put my laptop on the internet, but
> Verizon has intentionally made this impossible. Why might that be?
> How much more do you think Verizon racks up in fees because Get It Now
> cannot be disabled by people like me who don't want it? How many
> people besides me incur accidental charges like I did but never bother
> to dispute them?

I'll bet one. Unless I can get my dog to recreate it.

>
> : > So the question is, do I wait until December when my contract is up
> : > to switch providers or do I incur the $175 ETF fee now?
>
> : A personal decision you will have to make.
>
> Still have a few days before the end of my billing period to make up
> my mind. Regardless, I am not renewing my Verizon contact in a few
> months and I have certainly stopped recommending them to anyone,
> unless they are willing to put up with spotty, sometimes
> unprofessional customer service and a flakey website.
>
I'm sure you'll be sorely missed.
April 7, 2005 5:49:04 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Scott Stephenson <scott.stephensonson@adelphia.net> wrote:

: "Andrew" <usenetMYSHOES@bizaveMYSHOES.com> wrote in message
: news:uacuzcasd94242619211@bizaveMYSHOES.com...
: > Bud Stein <rockymountainhigh@softhome.net> wrote:
: > : In article <czcasdddhj58824417411@bizaveMYSHOES.com>,
: > : usenetMYSHOES@bizaveMYSHOES.com says...
: > : > But Customer Service has been very uneven. Sometimes I get a good,
: > : > professional CS agent, but too often I get an uncooperative,
: > : > borderline unprofessional agent. Last month, for example, I called to
: > : > complain about a Get-It-Now charge ($2.99) that had come about
: > : > apparently because my Nokia phone was unlocked in my pocket (I am
: > : > religious about locking it, but now and then I forget). She insisted
: > : > that it could not have been ordered by accident (impossible! she
: > : > said) even though I certainly did not order it and no one else did.
: > : > She was condescending and not helpful, saying she would take off the
: > : > charge "this time" but that they wouldn't in the future.
: >
: > : Isn't the subscriber responsible for all charges made from their
: > : device(s)? What makes the agent unprofessional and uncooperative
: because
: > : they reinforce a known policy you agreed too?
: >
: > I'm sorry - apparently many of you just didn't understand what I
: > wrote. The CS agent did not *BELIEVE* me when I told her the game was
: > ordered due to my phone being unlocked.

: Most of us did understand what you wrote. Apparently you don't understand
: that many of us don't believe you.

<insults snipped>

Gee, Scott, maybe I just made up the whole thing? Maybe I'm not even
a Verizon customer? Why would you believe some of what I wrote but
not all of it? Why did you choose to believe things selectively in my
post? Maybe you simply felt like flaming me instead of responding to
the issues I bring up?

If you feel you have strong enough arguments to respond without ad
hominem attacks, let me know and I'll post a real response.

Andrew
--
----> Portland, Oregon, USA <----
*******************************************************************
----> http://www.bizave.com <---- Photo Albums and Portland Info
----> To Email me remove "MYSHOES" from email address
*******************************************************************
Anonymous
a b F Wireless
April 7, 2005 5:49:05 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"Andrew" <usenetMYSHOES@bizaveMYSHOES.com> wrote in message
news:zcasdhjcchj98083619211@bizaveMYSHOES.com...
>
> Gee, Scott, maybe I just made up the whole thing? Maybe I'm not even
> a Verizon customer? Why would you believe some of what I wrote but
> not all of it? Why did you choose to believe things selectively in my
> post? Maybe you simply felt like flaming me instead of responding to
> the issues I bring up?
>
> If you feel you have strong enough arguments to respond without ad
> hominem attacks, let me know and I'll post a real response.
>

I'll admit it was probably a little harsh, but if you read a little more
carefully, you'll see some very strong arguments.

- You're making a mountain out of a $2.99 charge that you admit was
legitimate, but that resulted from an error that (due to the very specific
steps that must be taken) is almost impossible to occur by accident. My
analogy with the dog is just as likely. And given the unlikely nature of the
situation, no one should expect an immediate response of understanding to
the situation.

- You incurred a late charge because you did not live up to your commitments
and pay your bill because a single payment option was not available. If you
consider it an insult for me to point out how ridiculous your thought
process is on this, then I guess you don't need to respond.

- You claim that you are changing services because you don't appreciate the
fact that they actually held you to the terms of your contract.

- At no point do you ever acknowledge that the GIN story you tell could be
taken as being on par with an alien abduction. And then you are horrified
when people don't believe you when your explanation is the equivalent of "my
dog ate my homework."

And gee, Andrew- maybe you did make the whole thing up. Did you ever stop
to think that this might be the reaction to hearing such a story? Could
that reaction be the reason you had such a problem getting the credit.

If all of this sounds a little familiar, its because its all covered in my
last post.

There ya go, Andy- no attacks. Although I would suggest you grow a pair if
you are going to post and whine on Usenet.
April 7, 2005 8:55:13 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Scott Stephenson <scott.stephensonson@adelphia.net> wrote:
: "Andrew" <usenetMYSHOES@bizaveMYSHOES.com> wrote in message
: news:zcasdhjcchj98083619211@bizaveMYSHOES.com...
: >
: > Gee, Scott, maybe I just made up the whole thing? Maybe I'm not even
: > a Verizon customer? Why would you believe some of what I wrote but
: > not all of it? Why did you choose to believe things selectively in my
: > post? Maybe you simply felt like flaming me instead of responding to
: > the issues I bring up?
: >
: > If you feel you have strong enough arguments to respond without ad
: > hominem attacks, let me know and I'll post a real response.
: >

: I'll admit it was probably a little harsh, but if you read a little more
: carefully, you'll see some very strong arguments.

Well, Scott, you might find that when you lace your arguments with
words like "childish" and "stupidity", when I did not provoke you to
begin with, you tend to draw attention away from the rest of your
argument. Know what I mean?

: - You're making a mountain out of a $2.99 charge that you admit was
: legitimate, but that resulted from an error that (due to the very specific
: steps that must be taken) is almost impossible to occur by accident. My
: analogy with the dog is just as likely. And given the unlikely nature of the
: situation, no one should expect an immediate response of understanding to
: the situation.

The reason I made a big deal about this charge was not that I can't
afford the $2.99, but rather that I feel I was being ripped off. I do
not like the "Get It Now" featured and do not want it on my phone,
period. But there is no way to disable it (without defeaturing my
plan), and I believe this is intentional on Verizon's part. I hate
being charged for an accident on a feature that I hate and want to get
rid of but can't. This is all too common today, with companies nickel
and diming you with fees they are hoping you won't notice or bother to
contest.

Whether my explanation seems plausible or not is completely irrelvant
to me. It actually happened that way. I did not order the GIN game.
It was in my pocket (on silent) while I was watching a movie. I must
have called someone right before the film and, in my rush to put it on
silent as the movie started, forgot to lock it. As I've said
previously, the CS agent could have quickly ascertained from looking
at my billing history that I was not calling every month claiming I
never made calls or insisting that charges be dropped. That's how she
should have handled it. Because this instance is in my billing
record, if I called again next month with the same story, they'd know.

: - You incurred a late charge because you did not live up to your commitments
: and pay your bill because a single payment option was not available. If you
: consider it an insult for me to point out how ridiculous your thought
: process is on this, then I guess you don't need to respond.

No, I consider it an insult to lace your response with words like
"stupidity" and "childish". I already explained why I believe Verizon
should favor people who try to use their website because they are
constantly promoting it. Actually, they are with me on this - I'm
sure that's why they waived that fee so easily. They want me to try
to use the website in the future, not have to call CS again when it
fails, because when people like me have to call CS instead of using
the internet, it costs them money to hire more CS agents.

: - You claim that you are changing services because you don't appreciate the
: fact that they actually held you to the terms of your contract.

That's not the point - they waived the fees. My issue is how I was
treated by CS agent (this is not the first one). I didn't like the fact
that that agent promised to remove a charge even after the hassle yet
still did not do so, that I even had to waste my time calling them in
the first place because their heavily-promoted website did not work,
that they could not accept a credit card that everyone else accepts
and would not bother trying to figure out why. That when I actually
tried to give them feedback, they bounced it because I did not have a
password (my PIN was not good enough). Why would a company make it so
hard even to receive customer feedback???

(FWIW: a friend who once worked for Verizon Yellowpages, after
hearing my story, remarked simply, "You mean their wireless business
is run just like their phone book division?" They aren't the same
company, but maybe some of that attitude bleeds over...)

I don't have these CS problems with other companies. Why Verizon?
Why didn't AT&T have these kinds of problems? (used their website, it
always worked great - too bad their actual cell service didn't.) Why
doesn't T-Mobile (whom I already use for WiFi) have these problems?
I've called both AT&T and T-Mobile a few times and never had an issue,
always gotten professional customer service. Even Qwest, my
much-maligned local telephone company and DSL provider, has been decent.

: - At no point do you ever acknowledge that the GIN story you tell could be
: taken as being on par with an alien abduction. And then you are horrified
: when people don't believe you when your explanation is the equivalent of "my
: dog ate my homework."

No offense, Scott, but I don't think you have much of an imagination.
It's not all that hard to press a few buttons on an unlocked candybar
cell phone in your pocket and make accidental calls. Have you never
received such calls from people? I sure have. I'm not sure why you
think it's so implausible that a few buttons were hit to order the GIT
game by accident. I'm sure it happens every day.

: And gee, Andrew- maybe you did make the whole thing up. Did you ever stop
: to think that this might be the reaction to hearing such a story? Could
: that reaction be the reason you had such a problem getting the credit.

I'm sorry I had to present this story in the way that made people
disbelieve it. My real point was how I was treated by CS and all the
website problems. Whether my story was true or not should have been
irrelevant to the CS agent - she should have given me the benefit of
the doubt without hassle, after taking a look at my billing records.
I probably would not have posted my RANT at all if not for the final
straw, having my feedback that I tried to send to Verizon via their
website rejected without even being read.

: If all of this sounds a little familiar, its because its all covered in my
: last post.

: There ya go, Andy- no attacks.

It wasn't really so hard, now, was it Scotty? :-)

: Although I would suggest you grow a pair if you are going to post
: and whine on Usenet.

I've been on Usenet a long time and I'm well familiar with ad hominem
attacks. I still don't completely understand why people can't stick
to the issues instead of attacking the poster.

Andrew
--
----> Portland, Oregon, USA <----
*******************************************************************
----> http://www.bizave.com <---- Photo Albums and Portland Info
----> To Email me remove "MYSHOES" from email address
*******************************************************************
Anonymous
a b F Wireless
April 7, 2005 8:55:14 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Andrew wrote:
>
> I've been on Usenet a long time and I'm well familiar
> with ad hominem attacks. I still don't completely
> understand why people can't stick
> to the issues instead of attacking the poster.

Issues?
Your issue is that a CS didn't believe your story.

Why the dissertation on what you were charged for,
how you carry your phone, that you feel you were
ripped off when you got a credit, how you paid
a late fee because a single payment option didn't
work and you refused to use another, how the
whole thing would have never happened if you
had called to have GIN disabled... is there more?

All we've heard is your account of "I said, she said".
We haven't heard the CS's account of it. It seems
a lot of people are siding with the CS even after
only hearing your side of it.

-Quick
April 7, 2005 9:38:33 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Quick <quick7135-news@nospamyahoo.com> wrote:
: Andrew wrote:
: >
: > I've been on Usenet a long time and I'm well familiar
: > with ad hominem attacks. I still don't completely
: > understand why people can't stick
: > to the issues instead of attacking the poster.

: Issues?
: Your issue is that a CS didn't believe your story.

How would you feel if a CS agent didn't believe you when you called?
Oh, that's right, that will never happen to you! It only happens to
people who are making stuff up!

: Why the dissertation on what you were charged for,
: how you carry your phone, that you feel you were
: ripped off when you got a credit, how you paid
: a late fee because a single payment option didn't
: work and you refused to use another, how the
: whole thing would have never happened if you
: had called to have GIN disabled... is there more?

GIN can't be disabled without defeaturing National Access (I want to
be able to put my laptop on the internet as so many others here do
with National Access). At least, that's what several CS agents have
told me when I asked if they could disable GIN. Do you think they are
lying to me? No, wait - you don't believe me! Don't bother to call
yourself and ask - just assume I'm making it up and must be wrong.

Oh (thanks for reminding me!): you forgot the fact that Verizon
Wireless rejected my feedback submitted via their website because I
didn't provide a password or the last 4 SSN. I gave my PIN, thinking
that's what they meant by "password" and instead of saying, "Sorry,
that password does not match," they said, "Thank you for submitting
your feedback to Verizon Wireless! We really value your feedback!"
(or whatever it said). Then a while later I got a message saying they
had rejected my feedback because I hadn't provided the right password
(of course, I had no copy of what I'd typed, so I would have had to
start over).

: All we've heard is your account of "I said, she said".
: We haven't heard the CS's account of it.

It'd too bad we can't get the audio of that CS call if they recording
it for training purposes, but we can't, can we? This isn't
alt.verizon.is.great.no-bad-things-shall-be-said-about-them! I posted
my recent experiences with them, because apparently they did not want
to hear it themselves. Too bad you can't tolerate legitimate
criticism of Verizon without feeling the need to ridicule me.

: It seems a lot of people are siding with the CS even after
: only hearing your side of it.

Lots of people are following the Michael Jackson case by the hour,
too. What's your point?

Andrew
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Anonymous
a b F Wireless
April 7, 2005 9:38:34 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

I'm sorry you have such a hard life.

-Quick
April 7, 2005 9:56:11 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Quick <quick7135-news@nospamyahoo.com> wrote:

: I'm sorry you have such a hard life.

I'm sorry for you also.

Andrew
--
----> Portland, Oregon, USA <----
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Anonymous
a b F Wireless
April 7, 2005 12:35:33 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

In article <uacuzcasd94242619211@bizaveMYSHOES.com>,
usenetMYSHOES@bizaveMYSHOES.com says...
> Bud Stein <rockymountainhigh@softhome.net> wrote:
> In article <czcasdddhj58824417411@bizaveMYSHOES.com>,
> usenetMYSHOES@bizaveMYSHOES.com says...
> > But Customer Service has been very uneven . . . the future.
>
> : Isn't the subscriber responsible for all charges . . . agreed too?
>
> I'm sorry - apparently many of you just didn't understand what I
> wrote. The CS agent did not *BELIEVE* me when I told her the game was
> ordered due to my phone being unlocked. She didn't say, "The phone
> was unlocked and therefore your fault" - she said it could not have
> been ordered by accident. We didn't argue about whether it was my
> responsibility or not - we argued over whether what I claimed had
> happened could have happened (it did, despite what she said).
>
> How would you feel if you called Verizon CS and were told by the agent
> that what you said actually happened could not have happened? Would
> you just shrug your sholders and say, "Oh, well. I guess my memory
> must be failing me"??? Do you enjoy being called a liar by
> representatives of the company you do business with every month?
>
> I think it's unprofessional to argue with a customer and basically
> call him a liar.

Normally electronic devices do not self actuate. Isn't a dispute in fact
an argument? Did the representative call anyone a liar?

> : > A few days later I tried to pay my bill online . . . promised!
>
> : So the bill was paid late and there was a late charge applied to the
> : account. Aren't late charges part of the agreement made with the
> : company?
>
> I tried to pay on their website but it was down. I was unable to pay
> because their system, unlike every other bill pay system I use, would
> no longer accept the credit card I had been using for months prior to
> an address change. No one else has had trouble accepting the card

There are other options to pay the bill such as a store, money order,
cashier's check, mail or a check by telephone.

> Sure I'm responsible for paying the late charge, . . . they did.
>
> This time I got a helpful guy who was . . .points for that.
>
> So the agent gets points and is 'professional' for . . . customer.
>
> What costs?

The cost of the data transfer and rights for the game plus the late
charge for a bill not paid on time. There are costs involved for the
company.

> That's $7.99 of profit they tried to make off of me by
> hoping I wouldn't dispute the charges. Verizon didn't lose $5 because
> my last month's $39.99 balance was paid a few days late (and because
> next month's was paid three weeks early, in the same phone call, they
> pretty much came out even on interest charges).

If Verizon pays their bills a few days late, I am sure they have to
pay a late fee as well. How is a profit made for a legally binding late
fee?

> Does Verizon Wireless "lose" money because I'm ordering a game every
> week? Should I feel guilty because I'm not ordering a game for $2.99
> per week and that that $2.99 of "cost" is going to have to be passed
> on to customers? Maybe I should get a more expensive Verizon plan so
> I can pay them more money per month so they don't "lose" that money
> every month? Seems to be your point of view...

Can any business stay afloat with less income than expenses? Are we
still disputing the legitimacy of the late charge?

> I wish I could disable "Get It Now" from my phone without disabling
> the ability to use my phone to put my laptop on the internet, but
> Verizon has intentionally made this impossible. Why might that be?
> How much more do you think Verizon racks up in fees because Get It Now
> cannot be disabled by people like me who don't want it? How many
> people besides me incur accidental charges like I did but never bother
> to dispute them?

Perhaps you could ask the representative this question. I would think
disabling the game downloads would disable the data which is needed.
Data is data, i.e. all 0's and 1's.

> So the question is, do I wait until December when my contract is up
> to switch providers or do I incur the $175 ETF fee now?
>
> A personal decision you will have to make.
>
> Still have a few days before the end of my billing period to make up
> my mind. Regardless, I am not renewing my Verizon contact in a few
> months and I have certainly stopped recommending them to anyone,
> unless they are willing to put up with spotty, sometimes
> unprofessional customer service and a flakey website.

I respect your thoughts, feeling and your choice of a wireless carrier.
I am responding to publicly posted comments from one side of the
discrepancy.

It seems to me the company has went beyond what was requested from you in
they took of a questionable charge for a game and a legitimate late
charge. What more can the company do?

Verizon seems to have went out of their way to remove the charges you
disputed, although we have established the validity of at least one of
the charges. Again, the company is temporarily absorbing the costs of
the $5.00 charge.

Perhaps my perspective is different, but it seems the company went above
and beyond to please their customer.

Bud Stein
Anonymous
a b F Wireless
April 7, 2005 1:48:58 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Bud Stein wrote:
>
> Verizon seems to have went out of their way to remove the
> charges you disputed, although we have established the
> validity of at least one of the charges. Again, the
> company is temporarily absorbing the costs of the $5.00
> charge.
>
> Perhaps my perspective is different, but it seems the
> company went above and beyond to please their customer.

O jees... let me respond for Andrew. -:) 

It wasn't the GIN charge (although he said he felt he
had been ripped off).

It wasn't the late charge (although he said he felt it was
VZWs fault for touting the web pay and it didn't work for
Andrew for some reason -- he knew it didn't work and
didn't feel obligated to pursue any other payment method.)

It was because Andrew feels that the CS called him a
LIAR and this impinged on his honor.

-Quick
Anonymous
a b F Wireless
April 7, 2005 3:29:53 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

I don't believe you either.
April 7, 2005 8:51:06 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Bud Stein <rockymountainhigh@softhome.net> wrote:
: In article <uacuzcasd94242619211@bizaveMYSHOES.com>,
: usenetMYSHOES@bizaveMYSHOES.com says...
: > I think it's unprofessional to argue with a customer and basically
: > call him a liar.

: Normally electronic devices do not self actuate.

Mine didn't "self actuate" either, never suggested any such thing.
But buttons are easily pressed accidentially on unlocked candybar
phones - it happens every day. I've received more than one accidental
call from someone due to this. Haven't you?

: Isn't a dispute in fact an argument? Did the representative call
: anyone a liar?

She didn't use the word, but by saying "That could not happen [order
the game by accident]" even though I insisted that's the only way the
GIN game was ordered, she did call me a liar. If you say you drove to
Los Angeles from Boston and I said, "That could not happen," am I
calling you a liar? She did not even consider what I was saying,
instead talking right past me and saying, "Now who else had access to
your phone?" (uh...NO ONE.) I found it disrespectful.

: > I tried to pay on their website but it was down. I was unable to pay
: > because their system, unlike every other bill pay system I use, would
: > no longer accept the credit card I had been using for months prior to
: > an address change. No one else has had trouble accepting the card

: There are other options to pay the bill such as a store, money order,
: cashier's check, mail or a check by telephone.

Sure, I suppose I could have flown out to Verizon headquarters and
given them a cashier's check, too. Not really the point.

: > Sure I'm responsible for paying the late charge, . . . they did.
: >
: > This time I got a helpful guy who was . . .points for that.
: >
: > So the agent gets points and is 'professional' for . . . customer.
: >
: > What costs?

: The cost of the data transfer and rights for the game plus the late
: charge for a bill not paid on time. There are costs involved for the
: company.

If Verizon pays royalties for the game for each use (doubt it), surely
they counted my incident as a non-use and did not pay a royalty. Cost
of data transfer would be fractions of pennies - in the same league as
the cost of sending me free text messages showing me my requested
minutes used. Any cost of this one data transfer to the company would
be immeasurable compared to my monthy phone usage.

: > That's $7.99 of profit they tried to make off of me by
: > hoping I wouldn't dispute the charges. Verizon didn't lose $5 because
: > my last month's $39.99 balance was paid a few days late (and because
: > next month's was paid three weeks early, in the same phone call, they
: > pretty much came out even on interest charges).

: If Verizon pays their bills a few days late, I am sure they have to
: pay a late fee as well. How is a profit made for a legally binding late
: fee?

Companies pay bills late to each other all the time, in the form of
interest. A $5 late fee on a $39.99 bill amounts to an interest rate
of 12.5% PER MONTH. Surely you don't believe companies charge each
other 12.5% PER MONTH, do you? Even if Verizon paid interest on
unpaid bills to other companies, it would be in the neighborhood of
less than 1% per month (less than 12% per year). Probably less than a
half percent per month. Let's say 0.5% per month (unlikely that
high). In that case, to answer your question, Verizon made a profit
of $4.80 on my $5 fee and paid 20 cents in interest.

If Verizon is a profitable company, they don't have to pay interest to
anyone due to my payment being a few days late - they simply lose the
interest in their bank account. But they recovered that and more
when I paid next month's bill 3 weeks early.

: > Does Verizon Wireless "lose" money because I'm ordering a game every
: > week? Should I feel guilty because I'm not ordering a game for $2.99
: > per week and that that $2.99 of "cost" is going to have to be passed
: > on to customers? Maybe I should get a more expensive Verizon plan so
: > I can pay them more money per month so they don't "lose" that money
: > every month? Seems to be your point of view...

: Can any business stay afloat with less income than expenses?

Of course, for short periods - not really sure why that's relevant to
a discussion of whether a late fee is "profit" or not. The real
question is, can they stay in business in the long term if their
customers take their business elsewhere because of bad CS experiences?

: Are we still disputing the legitimacy of the late charge?

No, we are disputing the fairness of it. When I tried to pay my bill
the way they keep asking their customers to do, via website, it did
not work. Actually, Verizon didn't dispute the late charge either -
they agreed with me and took it off, because they want me to remain a
customer and to continue to try to use their website (instead of
calling). Only you are disputing the fairness of the late charge
under the circumstances, not Verizon. Verizon of course hopes that
most people don't dispute these charges, and I imagine most people
don't.

: > I wish I could disable "Get It Now" from my phone without disabling
: > the ability to use my phone to put my laptop on the internet, but
: > Verizon has intentionally made this impossible. Why might that be?
: > How much more do you think Verizon racks up in fees because Get It Now
: > cannot be disabled by people like me who don't want it? How many
: > people besides me incur accidental charges like I did but never bother
: > to dispute them?

: Perhaps you could ask the representative this question. I would think
: disabling the game downloads would disable the data which is needed.
: Data is data, i.e. all 0's and 1's.

Stop playing dumb, you know what I meant - I want to disable only the
ability to download games and other "download products" via GIN,
because I have no interest in ever buying stuff via download. I am
sure many Verizon customers feel as I do and would disable GIN
download features if they could. Verizon intentionally designed their
phone interface so downloading games and other products COULD NOT be
disabled, apparently.

: I respect your thoughts, feeling and your choice of a wireless carrier.
: I am responding to publicly posted comments from one side of the
: discrepancy.

: It seems to me the company has went beyond what was requested from you in
: they took of a questionable charge for a game and a legitimate late
: charge. What more can the company do?

Here are a few things they company could do to help all their customers:

They can try to train their CS agents to be more professional
consistently (like the 2nd agent, who was helpful, not like the 1st
one, who argued with me, said she would take the $2.99 fee off my bill
anyway, then did not do so.). They can try to improve their website
to be more reliable. They could have tried to figure out why they
were unable to accept my credit card (which everyone else has no issue
with) instead of shrugging and saying, "Sorry - call your credit card
company." They could change their website so that customers can send
feedback to Verizon more easily; simply logging in to one's account
should be enough to allow any feedback to be sent, not having their
current unfriendly interface that requires a 2nd password just to
enable sending feedback.

: Verizon seems to have went out of their way to remove the charges you
: disputed, although we have established the validity of at least one of
: the charges. Again, the company is temporarily absorbing the costs of
: the $5.00 charge.

Not "absorbing" it - see above.

: Perhaps my perspective is different, but it seems the company went above
: and beyond to please their customer.

See above.

Andrew
--
----> Portland, Oregon, USA <----
*******************************************************************
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----> To Email me remove "MYSHOES" from email address
*******************************************************************
Anonymous
a b F Wireless
April 8, 2005 3:06:20 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

In news:zcasdcacddc40563619411@bizaveMYSHOES.com,
Andrew <usenetMYSHOES@bizaveMYSHOES.com> typed:

>>> SNIP >>>

Most accidental phone calls are made to speed dial numbers - push one key
and make a phone call.

The probability of pushing only digit keys (7 or 10) - which correspond to a
valid phone number - then the send key is extremely low - not impossible but
not very probable.

Likewise the probability of accidentally pushing the keys required to
download a GIN application is extremely low - Not Impossible - but not very
probable.

Like they say - if enough monkeys pound on keyboards long enough, one will
accidentally thpe something that looks intelligent.
Anonymous
a b F Wireless
April 8, 2005 3:06:21 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

IMHO IIRC wrote:
> In news:zcasdcacddc40563619411@bizaveMYSHOES.com,
> Andrew <usenetMYSHOES@bizaveMYSHOES.com> typed:
>
>>>> SNIP >>>
>
> Most accidental phone calls are made to speed dial
> numbers - push one key and make a phone call.
>
> The probability of pushing only digit keys (7 or 10) -
> which correspond to a valid phone number - then the send
> key is extremely low - not impossible but not very
> probable.
>
> Likewise the probability of accidentally pushing the keys
> required to download a GIN application is extremely low -
> Not Impossible - but not very probable.
>
> Like they say - if enough monkeys pound on keyboards long
> enough, one will accidentally thpe something that looks
> intelligent.

If math wasn't so hard one could calculate the probability.
What does it take to download a GIN app (specifically a
game if that makes a difference)? How many presses and
the number of valid keys for each press? Does pressing
an invalid key cancel the entire sequence? is it ignored?
Are we talking winning the lotto probability here? Maybe
the CS was correct strictly based on probabilities?

"math is hard, let's go shopping!"
-Quick
the number of valid keys each
Anonymous
a b F Wireless
April 8, 2005 4:47:43 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Andrew wrote:
> Well, Scott, you might find that when you lace your arguments with
> words like "childish" and "stupidity", when I did not provoke you to
> begin with, you tend to draw attention away from the rest of your
> argument. Know what I mean?

OK, Verizon had a problem -- which may or may not have been under Verizon's
control (I forget what the problem was with the website; if it was a
connectivity problem, it may well have been outside their control, although if
it was a bug or some sort of programming error, that was their responsibility).
Knowing you have an obligation to pay, and not doing so even though you have
other alternatives, is incredibly stupid. Complaining about the subsequent late
charge is childish.

> No, I consider it an insult to lace your response with words like
> "stupidity" and "childish".

Oh well... I agree with Scott that your actions (or lack thereof) were both.

>I already explained why I believe Verizon
> should favor people who try to use their website

So the website was down. Yes, that is an inconvenience; perhaps even a big one.
I agree with you about that. But that doesn't preclude you from paying your
bill. I've paid my Verizon bill many ways... the Victorville, CA store even has
a payment machine. I've done it that way, over the phone and on the website.
Guess what? It would have taken an extra five minutes to pay over the phone.

> I don't have these CS problems with other companies.

They did you a favor by crediting the late fee! You paid late. There were
alternatives other than the website. Using one of them (the phone) would have
taken five extra minutes, if that long. But you refused to pay on time. But
they credited the $5 anyhow. That's pretty damned good customer service if you
ask me. It WAS NOT their fault that you didn't pay.

> I've been on Usenet a long time and I'm well familiar with ad hominem
> attacks. I still don't completely understand why people can't stick
> to the issues instead of attacking the poster.

I'll not argue either way about the GIN issue. Regarding the late payment - You
very clearly did not fulfill your responsibility to pay (by your own
admission!), you don't have an excuse for not fulfilling said responsibility,
and I agree 100% with Scott Stephenson that you are in the wrong. VZW did you a
favor anyhow and reversed a completely legitimate charge. Stop whining.

--
JustThe.net - Apple Valley, CA - http://JustThe.net/ - 888.480.4NET (4638)
Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / sjsobol@JustThe.net / PGP: 0xE3AE35ED

"The wisdom of a fool won't set you free"
--New Order, "Bizarre Love Triangle"
April 8, 2005 1:00:37 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Steve Sobol <sjsobol@justthe.net> wrote:
: Andrew wrote:
: > Well, Scott, you might find that when you lace your arguments with
: > words like "childish" and "stupidity", when I did not provoke you to
: > begin with, you tend to draw attention away from the rest of your
: > argument. Know what I mean?

: OK, Verizon had a problem -- which may or may not have been under Verizon's
: control (I forget what the problem was with the website; if it was a
: connectivity problem, it may well have been outside their control, although if
: it was a bug or some sort of programming error, that was their responsibility).
: Knowing you have an obligation to pay, and not doing so even though you have
: other alternatives, is incredibly stupid. Complaining about the subsequent late
: charge is childish.

: > No, I consider it an insult to lace your response with words like
: > "stupidity" and "childish".

: Oh well... I agree with Scott that your actions (or lack thereof) were both.

: >I already explained why I believe Verizon
: > should favor people who try to use their website

: So the website was down. Yes, that is an inconvenience; perhaps even a big one.
: I agree with you about that. But that doesn't preclude you from paying your
: bill. I've paid my Verizon bill many ways... the Victorville, CA store even has
: a payment machine. I've done it that way, over the phone and on the website.
: Guess what? It would have taken an extra five minutes to pay over the phone.

: > I don't have these CS problems with other companies.

: They did you a favor by crediting the late fee! You paid late. There were
: alternatives other than the website. Using one of them (the phone) would have
: taken five extra minutes, if that long. But you refused to pay on
: time.

(sigh). Steve, if you would read my original post, I admitted quite
clearly that I *FORGOT*, not "refused," to try to pay again after
their website refused the first time. I never said it was their fault
I forgot to try again. I was paying my bills for the month all at the
same time. I could pay the other bills online, as I always can. This
is not the first time time I've had problems with Verizon's website,
another reason it was annoying again.

I didn't complain to CS about the late charge - I complained about the
WEBSITE being down (for the Nth time) and simply asked for the charge
to be removed, as that's why I had paid late (after admitting to the
CS agent that I simply forgot to try again online). This agent was
cooperative and readily agreed. I got the impression "website was
down" is a pretty common call complaint.

Yeah, I should have dropped everything to pick up a phone to call
Verizon CS right away when paying all my other bills online. I
didn't. I wanted to pay my bills and be done with them, not stop and
call the one provider that was giving me trouble and wade through
their voicemail menu, press 1, press 2, type in your wireless number,
you call is important to us, please wait, blah blah blah. I figured
I'd try again tomorrow (it being three weeks before my bill was due
anyway), but I forgot.

Sure, I could have made a special trip to a Verizon store to pay my
bill. But when a company promotes the hell out of their website (as
so many companies do nowadays) to get their customers to use it for
everything from inquiries to bill payment, shouldn't they give you the
benefit of the doubt when they then can't provide a reliable website?
Obviously this CS agent thought so - he took the late fee off without
an argument.

So what exactly am I complaining about again? If you re-read my
original post, you'll see it was a whole serious of things, not the
late fee. The GIN accidential charge, the CS agent who didn't believe
me (even if she didn't, shouldn't have argued with me), who promised
to take off the charge anyway but then didn't, the Verizon website
being down and me being unable to pay, the late fee, Verizon being
unable/unwilling to process my credit card over the phone even though
other companies can, then me finally writing feedback on Verizon's
website and them bouncing it right back (but erasing all the text),
because "password" and "PIN" are apparently not the same things!

I was ranting about this whole series of frustrations with Verizon,
not one thing in particular. I rarely if ever have even one of these
types of problems with any of the other companies I deal with, even
the much-maligned Qwest. I didn't have them with AT&TWS. I don't
think I'm being unreasonable in comparing Verizon unfavorably to all
these other companies' customer service.

I'm not going to bother responding to the other posts, because I feel
no need to repeat myself and then get attacked for trying to defend
myself yet again. I'm sorry some of you don't believe my GIN
story, but I don't really care, because it happened as I said, and I'm
not going to lie or embellish just to make my story sound more
believable for you. If I were simply out to flame Verizon with some
tall tale, I could have done a hell of a lot better than this. (Ever
consider that? Why would I MAKE UP a story like mine???) I'm sure, if
you are honest, all of you have some sort of story that might sound
implausible to others but really happened. Ever heard the phrase
"sometimes the truth is stranger than fiction"? If you have the guts,
be honest about it, regardless of how you think people will react to
it. I told the truth here and got slammed for it - so be it.

Andrew
--
----> Portland, Oregon, USA <----
*******************************************************************
----> http://www.bizave.com <---- Photo Albums and Portland Info
----> To Email me remove "MYSHOES" from email address
*******************************************************************
Anonymous
a b F Wireless
April 8, 2005 9:04:31 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Andrew wrote:

> : They did you a favor by crediting the late fee! You paid late. There were
> : alternatives other than the website. Using one of them (the phone) would have
> : taken five extra minutes, if that long. But you refused to pay on
> : time.
>
> (sigh). Steve, if you would read my original post, I admitted quite
> clearly that I *FORGOT*, not "refused," to try to pay again after
> their website refused the first time. I never said it was their fault
> I forgot to try again. I was paying my bills for the month all at the
> same time. I could pay the other bills online, as I always can. This
> is not the first time time I've had problems with Verizon's website,
> another reason it was annoying again.

Alright, I apologize for the misstatement. Please replace "refused" with
"forgot". They still did you a favor.

> I didn't complain to CS about the late charge - I complained about the
> WEBSITE being down (for the Nth time)

Ahh. Well, I would say that's probably a reasonable complaint.

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JustThe.net - Apple Valley, CA - http://JustThe.net/ - 888.480.4NET (4638)
Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / sjsobol@JustThe.net / PGP: 0xE3AE35ED

"The wisdom of a fool won't set you free"
--New Order, "Bizarre Love Triangle"
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