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Great Article on Water Cooling - But what about th

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July 1, 2002 12:14:18 PM

I though the article on water cooling was great although it is not a complete solution. I'd like to see are the inclusion of a watercooled power supply eliminating the need for a power supply fan. The elimination of the fan for the radiator would be nice as well. Rplace the rad with a waterblock and a Pelt. with passive coolers on them like the Silverado. $$$ but quiet !
July 1, 2002 3:05:38 PM

I thought it was a terrible article. In the beginning they mention PSU coolers, but never follow thru with them. And since when does Toms have Innovatek stock?? That article was a complete advertisement for the Innovatek kit, and never mentioned that fact that you can build all that stuff yourself. They refer to the 200 dollar price tag as "pocket change" and refer to the kit as "something they built themselves" and "the perfect cooling solution". Far from it. Many people are claiming corruption at THG, especially since they awarded the buggy Gigabyte board their top performer in the last mobo roundup....now its becoming obvious in all their articles! This is certainly no longer the place for unbaised opinions...
July 1, 2002 3:57:53 PM

I like how they mounted the cooler and the fan on the case. However that YS fan is not the best. Also, what if you got some sheet metal and cut another hole in the side of the case and diverted the heated air leaving the water cooler back outside the case? Why would you want that latent energy to build up inside the case? They could do something similar with the PSU.

<b>"Sometimes you can't hear me because I'm talking in parenthesis" - Steven Wright</b> :lol: 
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July 1, 2002 8:03:26 PM

I don't think the article was trying to advertise Innovatek or even water cooling. I think it was trying to "advertise" a real, no-nonsense approach that proclaimed, "hey you can do it too." Which I think is great. In the beginning they stated their message. Today's PC's suck: make sure yours stands out!

However, on a different level, it's important to note that water cooling is not the only approach to a silent system. The cost is a lot more for a water cooled system than it is for a standard HSF combo. HSF's are $20-$40 with the odd penguin, the Silverado, at $60-$70 being the most expensive. Contrast this with the cheapest water cooling kit for $100, and even more if you decide to build it yourself.

That said, I would have preferred they give a solution that required no tools at all. I think the moment they showed their electric screwdriver screwing up the back of the case a lot of people probably said, "ok I can't do that." Because if they really wanted to reach the mainstream then they would've realized that the mainstream user typically has no tools other than his hands.

Here's what I think the "average" user would buy:

1. A water cooling kit with a radiator that has an external mount that is toolless. The radiator fan will have an amazing sound/CFM ratio above all else and will come with a potentiometer and RPM monitor with alarm.
2. The kit will have only two water blocks: GPU and CPU (the two noisiest fans, after all), and come with extensive documentation and troubleshooting solutions.
3. The kit will come pre-packaged with Arctic Silver III.

I know that this kind of setup wouldn't benefit the extreme overclocker, considering especially that the fan I am suggesting for the radiator isn't going to be particularly powerful. But I believe that if this is the market segment a manufacturer really wants to tap--the many people who build their own PCs, never overclock, and want a silent system--then there isn't a single kit out there that exists for them and THG's video isn't going to help much.

This little cathode light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine!
July 2, 2002 3:46:00 AM

I'm with garasaki; I think this article was horrible. It was a complete advertisement for Innovatek. I especially disliked Tom's review of the 4 watercooling kits from some while ago, pitting Innovaket against Swiftech. I'm suprised that the Swiftech did as well as it did, especially <b>without</b> a fan on the radiator. That says something about the Swiftech.
Actually, watercooling kits are getting cheaper and cheaper all the time. And, if you REALLY want to go cheap, build your own. It's so much easier than buying some entire kit, and it usually cools more effectively, also.

If you want to see PSU cooling, go <A HREF="http://www.zerofanzone.co.uk/content.asp?request=liquid..." target="_new">here.</A>

And, that kit requires no tools. (except perhaps a screwdriver to attach the fan to the radiator) If you notice, all the connections are quick-connects; they don't require a hose clamp. I don't know why they decided to attach the radiator to the TOP of the case. Heat rises, if they forgot. Most watercooling that's done with radiator systems has the radiator/fan combo sitting down on the bottom of the case. Some people have 2 fans, in a push-pull configuration. Either way, just make sure that it stays in the bottom of the case. You'll get better cooling, and you don't have to buy as much tubing. (if you want to pay more for tubing, go ahead!)

To upgradez: you can't take the fan off the radiator, the water will get hot, and cooling will become ineffective. You can't replace the radiator with a waterblock and a pelt, either. You have to have something to cool the pelt effectively on the other side, and a heatsink just doesn't cut it. Why? Because the heat coming off of a pelt is a combination of the wattage of a pelt PLUS whatever heat is coming into it. So, if pelt is a 76watt pelt, and the heat load from the water is around 100 watts (CPU heat plus GPU heat), then that heatsink has 176watts to cool. That's impossible for a heatsink, especially without a fan on it.

To cakecake: I built my watercooling kit for less than $100USD.
Maze2: $42.
5 gallon bucket: $3.
10 feet of 1/2" tubing: $2.
3 feet of 4" diameter PVC pipe: free (found in garage)
showerhead: $13
200gph pump: $35

Of course, my system doesn't have a radiator. :)  (it's special)

AND, you can go much cheaper than my system. BeCooling has a $15 waterblock/holddown. (yes, both for $15) And, they have lots of pumps for cheap. Like, $20 for a Via Aqua1300. That eliminates a huge portion of the cost.
If you want REAL cooling, better than that Innovatek, get a heatercore from a car. You can get them cheap at Advanced Auto Parts for around $20. Or, you can get one already done (with the hose barbs) at DangerDen for $35. They also have much less flow restriction than a normal watercooling radiator.

To Bum UCRules: if you look closely in the video, they have the YS Tech fan pulling air across the radiator out the back of the case. And, all PSU's have the hot air blowing outside the case.

Soyo Dragon+ Motherboard
AMD Athlon XP 1600+ AGKGA-Y
H20 Bong Cooled
256MB DDR RAM
July 2, 2002 5:07:34 AM

Sounds nice, but I'm still doubtful as to whether water cooling is as easy and effective as Tom's was trying to portray it and as everyone says it is. Even though you can build a water cooling system for under $100 (and there's a bit of a water cooling devil in me as I say this) it's still more expensive than a HSF cooler.

Today's computer market is all about speed and price. And here's the dilemma I'm pointing out: People are advocating water cooling and saying that it's easy and affordable, but when the average person tries it he will most likely become discouraged because it is in fact not easy (maybe to someone who knows their way around things) and is not inexpensive. It's impossible to substantiate the word "easy" here but try to play dumb with me. Some people, mostly utilitarians, will say "no way" to water cooling once they see all of those parts that they have to cut and assemble and the different shops they have to drive to.

Tom's article and especially the music in their movie really give off this air of "oh you can do it too" or my favorite, "your cake and eat it too." What I'm commenting on is also the preponderance of the overclocking community that it's incredibly painless to do and money is not an issue.

This little cathode light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine!
July 2, 2002 12:15:53 PM

I agree - Joe Sixpack isn't going to get into watercooling until it's supplied in the case by CompUSA. Remember, these guys call a plumber to fix a dripping tap (or faucet, if you prefer).

I also have a number of reservations about that article (haven't watched the vid) - the discussion of water vs water + antifreeze / water wetter was pitiful. Plus, we keep being assured that these specific components are "the best available" - now I haven't actually built a watercooler yet, but I've done enough research to know that Your Mileage May Vary. And the rad (looks like a Be AquaCoil) "will fit in any PC case", will it? Bull - I'd like to see you fit it in the midi tower of my domain contoller. Don't buy a rad without measuring - twice!

Having not watched the vid, I'm curious about some missing details - like how did they connect those 4 blocks to one resevoir / rad, with only one pump? If they're running the blocks in parellel, I don't much fancy their chances of getting a balanced flow. If they're in series, how big is the pressure drop? Yeah, I know I should watch the vid, but hey, I'm at work...

Oh, and does anyone *really* watercool their harddrives? Seriously?
July 2, 2002 2:44:05 PM

I did not look at the video...I am at work and using a 56K modem. Interesting. So they are using warmer case air to cool the water running through the radiator. In a case that large I would still take air from the outside. Same for the PSU, I know that PSU's draw air from inside the case and then out, but I would still would rather draw the air from the outside and send it back out again ASAP. Cooler air to cool the parts and no air remaining in the case to drive up the temps.

Water cooling the PSU is one major project. (Public Service Announcment: Do not attempt this at home.) Nice link. Bladerunner is a really good waterblock maker. He has shown up here before. (I think it was the heatpipe discussion.)

Have you ever thought of using a plastic gasoline can instead of a bucket? You could probably make it more leak-resistant and not worry about particles landing in your bucket.

Thanks for the info...

<b>"Sometimes you can't hear me because I'm talking in parenthesis" - Steven Wright</b> :lol: 
July 2, 2002 3:35:07 PM

Well, I need to remember that a kit like this is good for the average person, not for the overclocking enthusiast. You're right, most people won't do it unless it's built into the case. If you want one that's built into the case and is quiet, go <A HREF="http://www.swiftnets.com" target="_new">here.</A> Click on the case that comes up in the first pic. That's the swiftec Q-Power case. (stands for quiet-power) If you want reviews, here are 2.
<A HREF="http://www.overclockers.com/articles542/" target="_new">One.</A>
<A HREF="http://www.overclockers.com/articles550/" target="_new">Two.</A>

One thing that I noticed in the video was that they didn't bleed the system, and there were bubbles everywhere, most likely getting stuck inside the waterblocks.


Oh, and no, I've never thought about putting it inside of a gasoline can, and here's why. My bong won't fit inside of it. (not pot bong; my computer watercooling bong) And, the 5 gallon bucket that I use is very sturdy, I've been using it for a while now. I don't really need to worry about crap getting in the water, because I have one of those little filters in the showerhead, and it catches whatever's in the water.
Speaking of that, when I first set it up, I was very eager to get it working, so I used tap water for around 4 days. (before I went to distilled) I'd have to clean out filter in the showerhead once a day, because it kept getting clogged. With the distilled, it's a rarity when I have to clean it it, and even when I do, it's always less than when I was using tap water.

Soyo Dragon+ Motherboard
AMD Athlon XP 1600+ AGKGA-Y
H20 Bong Cooled
256MB DDR RAM<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by CharlesHF on 07/02/02 11:38 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
July 2, 2002 5:21:34 PM

Good links.

What kind of climate do you live in? How does your bong work for you where you live? How often do you have to fill the system with water? Do you have any pictures with links to them?

<b>"Sometimes you can't hear me because I'm talking in parenthesis" - Steven Wright</b> :lol: 
July 2, 2002 6:43:17 PM

"Radiator: High Efficiency via Counter Current Flow"

That is NOT a counter current heat exchanger.

Tom.
July 3, 2002 2:39:44 AM

Is there another tech forum that knows what they are talking about and doesn't do advertisments? I'm diappointed with some articles that this forum wrote. The only reliable articles in this forum are the ones that people reply in the "Community" link, trying to help another comrad.

God Bless America! PEACE!
July 3, 2002 5:27:32 AM

YES, there IS a place like this! :smile:
It's <A HREF="http://www.overclockers.com" target="_new">Overclocker.com</A>
Just go in, read some of the articles, and I'm sure that most of what you need can be found in the forums by searching for it. (we have a great search feature! :)  )
Hope to see you there. Oh, and one more thing. Our forums are FAST! About 10x faster than these. And ours look better, too.
On the front page of the website, every day, Ed writes some kind of article/essay on something, and he's not biased. And, he tells it the way it is. Occasionally, you'll see an article that was submitted by someone like you and me, and occasionally you'll see comparisons/articles/reviews by another guy named Joe, who also works the website. All of these are great guys, and they put out great stuff.

In reply to Bum JCRules--<A HREF="http://forum.oc-forums.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadi..." target="_new">here</A>are 2 pics of my system. I'll try and search the forums to find a few more. (kind of hard with 700 posts....lol) I live in New Bern, NC. It's usually very humid outside, but if your house (or wherever the bong is) is air conditioned, it's not a problem. It works great for me, but I don't have a fan on it yet, so it's hotter than I'd like. But, it stills fine. Since I don't have a fan, it takes a little longer to evaporate the water, I usually splash some in every other day or so into my 5 gallon bucket.

Soyo Dragon+ Motherboard
AMD Athlon XP 1600+ AGKGA-Y
H20 Bong Cooled
256MB DDR RAM
July 3, 2002 2:07:13 PM

How fast does the water come through the showerhead? Those pictures don't show much. Well the Maze2 looks like, well, like a Maze2 on a Soyo motherboard. Also, do you restrict the waterflow through the showerhead? Does the water from the showerhead just fall down your PVC vertical pipe to the bottom? Couldn't add something to help the evorative proprties of the bong? I saw one on OCer's where they used brillo pads to hold some of the water to evaporate. I don't know how well that would work in your system but something else might work. Do you use a coil inside your bong? ...or just a few ends or a straight pipe? I have never seen someone use a bong here where I live. (Buffalo NY) It only gets hot during the summer. Other than that air cooling is fine. Most of the sytems are air cooled.

<b>"Sometimes you can't hear me because I'm talking in parenthesis" - Steven Wright</b> :lol: 
July 4, 2002 11:06:43 PM

The water cooling article was interesting but appears a bit incomplete. What about a discussion of the water pathway?
I mean: it looks as if the water is going serial, which
does not seem as an optimal solution as it is heated up for each step. Wouldn't a parallel pathway be better? But how does one make the "beam splitter" for this? I have seen T and Y fittings for dual CPU / GPU cooling, but one in and
four out? - not.

Dip
July 4, 2002 11:58:21 PM

I personally would not buy a water cooling system atm. I will not buy a system that involves drilling my case. However this is what I would like to see:

1. A radiator that includes a fan that fits in one or two 5 1/4 inch bays. This means the radiatior could vent through a grate at the front.
2. Preferably a Pump with integrated resovoir that also mounts in a 5 1/4 bay. You could also power it from a 12 volt supply. If that did not provide enough current then two leads linked together would do it. Or you could integrate the pump into a power supply. Therefore the pump could be powered well and then the power supply could be water cooled.
I suppose a bracket could be included that fits in a slot at the back of the case with water inlts and outlets, with a power pass through for a pump inside the case.

I feel the water cooling things are at an infant stage and these kits may have been put together in a hurry with no regard for ease of installation.

I would just like to add something about the bleeding of the system: The system was not bled in the video because of the header tank, air is allowed to leave the water here.

Sorry about the long post but I have alot to get across.
BTW the overclockers forum is cool, someone overclocked a T-Bred using a pencil I believe...although I am not sure if it is entirely correct because I got confused it is quite a long article.
July 5, 2002 9:33:37 PM

WTF happend here?
July 5, 2002 11:13:16 PM

what do you guys think of the koolance? for 200 bucks, a complete system. and its not even as much as mentioned!!

did you notice that one of the authors was german...hence the germanish view.. (innovantek)

Waiting...Watching
July 6, 2002 12:51:04 PM

Check the archive they may have reviewed it, but yeah where is the koolance webbie also the innovtek(??) webbie is all in german, they could be considerate and translate it into english and french at least so more people can understand it
July 6, 2002 3:52:25 PM

they did review the koolance, but I don't think they did a direct comparision of the two.

www.koolance.com

Waiting...Watching
July 7, 2002 4:41:50 AM

I would actually recommend a Swiftech Q-Power case. A little more expensive, but it'll stay cooler.

I could add something to help with the evaporation, but I'm content with my high temps for right now ($$$ is an issue!) and it's also not that loud. I don't restrict water--in fact, I took the flow restricter out of the showerhead. It falls vertically down.

Soyo Dragon+ Motherboard
AMD Athlon XP 1600+ AGKGA-Y
H20 Bong Cooled
256MB DDR RAM
July 7, 2002 10:25:42 AM

why is everyone talking about a showerhead?
July 7, 2002 9:00:06 PM

I find nothing to support all the naysayers about the review or the quality of the product. I have over the last four days, sence seeing the article, done a lot of research on what is available from other companies and am convinced that the Innovatek system is of the highest quality components and that the price is better than any other system. Although I am one of the guys that most of you guys would consider a noob, I know quality when I see it.

The components that make up the SwiftTech look like stuff I used on my 55 gallon saltwater aquarium. The radiator, and I don't know anything about heat transfer and all tht jazz, looks puny compared to the Innovatech.

The Koolance system's components look of a lesser quality and the fans on top of the case make a lot of noise.

Face it, doods, this is a system that works and works well.

Tom's reviewer was just excited, like I am, that you can now get a very high quality water cooled system for not a whole lot more than an air cooled one considering the expense of a bunch of fans.

Here is the system I am building and the components. I will be using an air cooled bay fan HDD cooler. I ordered a Panaflow 8cm fan for the front of the case. I will swap the PS for my Enermax 350 that is currently in my wife's computer. That will be the extent of the cooling for the case. We'll see how that works and I'll report back here with the results in about a week or so. My system will not be initially overclocked. I gotta learn how to do it later. Now this insn't what you guys would call a powerful system by any means but when I get to jammin on SOF online my video card is smokin! I have a system I built that is so hot that I have it laying on it's side with a 15" room rotating fan lying face down blowing into the case to keep that bad boy cool.

Abit KT7A
Athlon 1.4gh
60gb IBM Deskstar 100ATA
GeForce 3 TI 200


The case:
http://store.yahoo.com/directron/honhai7a09001.html

The case review, the only one I could find on Google:
http://www.geocities.com/ubergeek00/comp/7a090-01.htm

The HDD cooler, might add the water HDD cooler later:
http://store.yahoo.com/directron/khd301.html
July 8, 2002 1:22:04 AM

Personally, I'd rather have the Swiftech, considering that it comes with a case. :smile:

Soyo Dragon+ Motherboard
AMD Athlon XP 1600+ AGKGA-Y
H20 Bong Cooled
256MB DDR RAM
July 8, 2002 3:58:50 AM

But isn't the Swiftech loud and weights more than 2 offensive linemen?
July 8, 2002 10:52:53 AM

Yeah, they're heavy. But they have a nice hold down system, so if you're careful, you'll do fine. Personally, I'm more scared putting on a heatsink that uses hold-down tabs than I am putting on a heavier waterblock that uses the AMD holes.

Soyo Dragon+ Motherboard
AMD Athlon XP 1600+ AGKGA-Y
H20 Bong Cooled
256MB DDR RAM
July 8, 2002 10:57:18 PM

yes but why are people useing a shower head?
July 9, 2002 2:34:37 AM

Is there a way to minimize the noise on the Swiftech? If the Swiftech is mounted to the mobo, how does it go about cooling the CPU? Does the bottom plate barely touches the CPU core?
July 9, 2002 8:56:46 PM

Well, I'm sold big time now!!!!

I had been wondering how cool this rig acutally keeps your processor and video GPU. I bout fell off my chair when I read that this rig keeps the temps at 104F at the MOST on any chip they tested and they were overclocked to the max.

http://www.water-cooling.com/reviews/innovatek/innovate...

Man, I can't wait to put mine togther!!!

Later doods
July 10, 2002 1:22:03 AM

There shouldn't BE any noise coming from the actual waterblock, as it's just water flowing through it. The waterblock mounts to the mobo through 4 holes that are on the mobo surrounding the CPU bracket. The screws on the waterblock screw into these, keeping the bottom of the waterblock constantly into contact with the CPU core. If you want to see a visual of this, I'd recommend <A HREF="http://www.dangerden.com/Instructions/MAZE2.htm" target="_new">this.</A> It's photos of the DangerDen Maze2 being mounted, but it's the same general idea.

Soyo Dragon+ Motherboard
AMD Athlon XP 1600+ AGKGA-Y
H20 Bong Cooled
256MB DDR RAM
July 10, 2002 2:52:51 AM

I wish that I can afford watercooler. It's too expensive for me at this moment. For now I'm stuck with a fat booty that sits on top of my CPU core and weights 300lbs.
July 10, 2002 3:59:31 AM

So is this water cooling kit considered noiseless cept for the 120mm fan? Does the pump make any noise? I'm thinking of getting one of these kits but I have no idea how I would fit it in my case. It's a CoolerMaster ATC-110.

Unless if anyone knows if there is a such thing as an external watercooling kit?
July 10, 2002 12:47:06 PM

Unless you feel comfortable cutting holes in your expensive case I'm not sure any kind of external solution would work with it and I'm also not sure if it would work internally, again, without cutting a big hole in your case. Maybe you could take some of your drive bay covers out and mount the radiator there and blow the hot air out of the front of your computer?

I think it's worth looking into. If you examine all the pictures closely and look at the dimensions, see if it's possible. Finally if you want the quietest system in the world you can even use a rheostat for the fan(s) that cools the radiator. You could also try removing the exhaust fan in your case, mounting the radiator in the same spot, and then mounting the fan onto the radiator. This may not be possible, as I have no clue as to the dimensions of this radiator. This would result in quite a quiet system, however, you are still left with the power supply's fans in addition to the noise of the hard drive, the noise of the cooling fan for the radiator, and the noise of the vibrations from the case. To truly get silence you'd have to go further.

To solve the hard drive vibrations you can suspend your hard drive in a 5.25 bay with rubber bands so that its vibrations do not transfer to the case or buy the Noisecontrol No Vibes III. To solve case vibrations you can buy some Akasa Pax Mat. If your PSU is loud you may have to buy a new PSU that is quieter. If it's quiet already then you'll be okay. If you bought the water cooling kit and these other things it could cost you about $300. I overestimated by about 20% because I figure there will be other things you'll find along the way where you'll say "crap I forgot to get item x" or "it would be neat if I could pick this up too..."

Alternatively you could buy 3 to 4 pin fan adapters from pccables.com, get several fanmates, and attach them to your fans. Use temperature monitoring to find the sweet spot for the max speed you want to run your fans at. Then suspend your hard drive in mid air with rubber bands or get the no vibes 3. Finally, get Akasa Pax Mat and put it inside your case. These are the only three things you have to do, and it'll cost you approximately $70. It's also incredibly easy to install.

I personally took the second route and when my fan adapter arrives in the mail in a few days no fan in my entire case will be running at more than 1500RPM and my CPU temps will average 46 C. I figure it's a good balance between silence, not breaking the bank, and ease of installation.

This little cathode light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine!
July 10, 2002 8:10:53 PM

Well I'm going to get a window kit for my case but I don't mind drilling holes for fan screws or anything like that. Well my case only has 4 5.25 bays which 2 are already occupied with a CD writer and DVD-rom... so I don't think that's possible..
I tend to like things clean and neat and professional looking which is quite hard to achieve.. Even if I took all four of my 5.25 drive bay covers out I'd still have the case door in the way.

Yeah I also think it's worth looking in to as it will be compatabile with Intels future processor (Prescott)...
The best I could think of was IF possible to fit the radiator at the bottom of my in my hidden 3.5" bays where my intake fans are and turn the intake fans around and become outake fans..

But the Eheim pump has to be plugged in to one of your house hold electrical outlet right? Mean I'd either have to leave my case side panel off or make a whole somewhere for it to go through right?

Thanks for the tip on the hardrives! Though I'm not really concerned with my hardrive noise levels it's really mainly the fans that make the most noise...
My PSU fans seem to be quiet as I'm using a pretty new Enermax PSU...

The whole point of getting this watercooling kit to me is to take out the fans and let them sit in my drawer or something since the water cooling kit will be cooling everything for me already..

Well 46 C seems average but with water cooling you can get down to I belive 31 C when they overclocked the Athlon and had an extra 400MHz.. So that's also another benefit for water cooling as is why at this moment of thinking of getting one or in the near future..

Unless if something even newer and better comes out...

Anyways thanks for all the tips!
July 10, 2002 11:19:25 PM

I read the shower head thing, hehe funny idea but it works, I would however have to build a steam generator that fits in the top to just make it look cool :-P
July 12, 2002 12:57:40 AM

Actually, the hard drive is one of the largest contributers to noise levels in the entire case. The problem is not the hard drive's sound levels when it's reading and writing or seeking data, but rather its RPM. The sound levels are actually amplified because the vibrations from the hard drive's platters transfers so well to the case.

If you want something professional, go with the Noisecontrol No Vibes III like I mentioned earlier. You can buy it at frozencpu.com. It's a complete kit and is pretty secure. I think you'll be amazed at how much quieter a simple kit like this can be.

Turning your intake fans around sounds like a good idea. I think it might just work.
July 12, 2002 5:19:08 AM

Really?? Hmm okay even if I go professional what about water cooling my hardrives?

In your opinion would you rather cool your hardrives? or get the Noisecontrol No Vibes III to lower the noise of your hardrives?

Flipping the fans around might work but I have to know the dimensions of the radiator.
July 12, 2002 5:48:31 AM

It depends on the drive. If they're IBM's, I'd say go for it. They're known to constantly die heat deaths. But, get a block that cools the bottom of the drive, it's my understand that that is where the most heat is produced.

Soyo Dragon+ Motherboard
AMD Athlon XP 1600+ AGKGA-Y
H20 Bong Cooled
256MB DDR RAM
July 12, 2002 1:32:19 PM

If you get the Innovatek kit, the radiator (the metal box with the fins) itself is 12cm, the size of a 120mm fan. The heat pipes stretch out a bit so you can probably do a conservative overestimate of their size by looking at the picture and getting a pretty good idea about whether it'll fit in your case or not. My guess is that it will since you have such a large case.

I'd say hard drive cooling is relatively important, but is not really necessary if you provide enough air around your hard drives. The No Vibes III actually does not choke the hard drive and trap heat inside like the plastic hard drive isolation chambers of the past did. In fact, it should have no negative effect on hard drive temperatures. If you want to read a review, there's a good one at <A HREF="http://www.dansdata.com/novibes.htm" target="_new">Dan's data</A>.

For reference, a Maxtor D740X hard drive maxes out 20 C and a WD 1200JB maxes out at 17 C operating temperatures without any cooling whatsoever. This temperature measurement is taken from the top of the hard drive after it was running for 80 minutes. To get the final temperature of the drive, add the ambient temperature to this reading. I've never had a problem with my hard drives overheating, but I know someone who has. It's hard to say. All I can tell you is that I do not believe that the No Vibes III will cause excess heat to build up around the hard drive.

Worst case scenario, let's say where you live it's 38.4C/105F. If you had a Maxtor D740X that would mean the drive was running at 58.4C/143F! Okay, so that's a lot, especially since Maxtor certifies their D740X drives to 55 degrees C. So if you do the math, the maximum ambient temperature you could afford to have without going beyond Maxtor's max waranteed operating temperatures would be 35C/98.5F. Where I live, the temperature rarely ever goes beyond 26C (a few days in the year during summer it reaches this temp) and usually hovers around 20C, so I would be fine. If your room has air conditioning or ambient temps are less than 35C/98.5F you should be fine too.

This little cathode light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine!
July 12, 2002 8:48:46 PM

Actually the heat pipes stretch out a bit but shouldn't interfere if I mount it vertically.. Well if it's 12cm either length or width it's not going to fit in my case. The max width I can fit is 10.x cm in my 3.5" cage.. Argh now I'm stuck with air cooling.. My case isn't that large.. It's a mid-tower with just a lot of 3.5" bays..(7 of them).. The only thing I don't like about my case is there is only 4 5.25" bays and that's it...

Anyways I read the review of the No Vibes III and it looks like a good product. In fact I went to the Noisecontrol site which is in German and saw the No Vibes III with a 80mm fan attached to the bottom of them...

Anyways I'm using two old Maxtor 40 Gigs which will replaced by two Western Digital 100 gigs... I'm looking at the reivew of the WD1000BB and on Toms review it's stating that it heats up to 45 C and 53.9 dbA drive idle noise... I'm not sure if the measurements are accurate but to me 53.9 dbA is LOUD. The Y.S. Tech fans that I'm using right now are rated if I remember approx 22.5 or 23 dbA which I can't even hear.. So I'm thinking 53.9 will be a monster unless hardrive noise levels are measured differently?...

I have 5 3.5" bays hidden were the intake fans are so I was thinking maybe put the hardrives where the intake fans are and have them blow across the hardrive horizontally...

So even if I do get the No Vibes I'm only limted to a max of 2 kits while the other two is my DVD-Rom, and CD writer...

My room is usually above normal temperature as it faces the sun and is probably one of the hottest rooms in the house..

I live in B.C. Canada and right now it's really sunny and hot... So that's why I'm thinking of cooling as an important factor.. I don't have air conditioning but a simple fan which I don't think is sufficent to keep the room cool..
July 14, 2002 12:47:47 AM

The WD1000BB goes up to 20 C operating temperature. Again, add ambient temps to get the final temp of the drive.

That noise rating is correct for the most part. However, the noise rating of the WD1000BB is only about 7 decibels higher than your current maxtor drives. Hard drives have always been loud, and one of the worst contributers to case noise. The problem is not only sound power, but sound pressure. Sound pressure is mainly the ability of the hard drive to transfer its vibrations to the case, which transfers its vibrations to the air, causing you to hear sound. Sound power is the measurement of the sound coming directly from the drive itself. The decibel ratings you see are high because they are taken very close to the drive's spindle. If you're wondering about Maxtor's FDB drives, the noise levels for them are about 2.4 decibels lower than noise levels for the equivalent ball bearing motor drives.

What the noisecontrol no vibes and akasa pax mate allow you to do is to at least help alleviate the sound pressure. They absorb vibrations, thereby isolating the sound within the case. Again, the reason why things usually get so loud is that vibrations transfer outside of the case due to sound pressure causing excess vibrations. Someone recently posted that their Papst was inaudible when just blowing on its own, but when it was connected to a heatsink and put on the processor, its noise level doubled.

Try feeling around different parts of your case while your computer is running. Do your fans vibrate? Try cutting and putting strips on Pax Mate on the fans themselves without interfering with the movement or motor of the fan. (this may cause hysteresis although I don't know yet--I will try this soon on my own system so I'll post about it once I do)

Does your heatsink shake around a lot? Again, try putting sound absorption material on your CPU fan.

If you don't want to ruin your case, which I don't blame you for not wanting to do, then you don't have to put noise dampening material on your case. Just putting it on your case fans may make all the difference. The hazard of using this material is that it should not be placed on anything that needs to dissipate heat. This means that noise dampening foam should not be put on heatsinks or in a position to block any kind of air movement. If your case fans use screws to attach, you can also try getting some rubber O rings to put around the screws so that they don't transfer vibrations as well to the case. Some people who've tried this report some success in reducing noise. I'm not sure exactly where to buy these. Perhaps a hardware store will have them.

This little cathode light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine!
July 14, 2002 10:38:56 PM

Oh yes forgot about ambient temps.. Is there anything for 3.5" bays to lower noise levels? Like no vibes iii in a 3.5" format?...

Well here is a piece of a press release from WDC:
WD Caviar 60 GB-per-platter 7,200 RPM hard drives will be offered in capacities ranging from 120 to 200 GB and will be available this July. To ensure quiet operation in noise-sensitive desktop/work station environments, Western Digital offers hard drives equipped with optional fluid dynamic bearing (FDB) motors.

Would you think these drives would be anymore significantly quieter than the current hardrvies on the market?..

Ok so both products help trap sound pressure... Would rubber washers be just as good as akasa pax mate for case fans?... I don't think my fans really vibrate as they are screwed on tight to the case and same goes with the heatsink..
Okay what about putting strips of the Akasa Pax Mate between each side of the hardrives? would that work? It'll probably make my hardrives a little warmer but if it will help prevent sound pressure that's already good enough..


Are case fans very important? I was thinking about changing the fans in my case to quiet Papst one. But I'm not sure how it will affect my airflow in my case... Do you have any idea what the recommend amount of air should be for intake and exhaust fans in CFMs?
July 15, 2002 2:53:46 AM

<i>Would you think these drives would be anymore significantly quieter than the current hardrvies on the market?..</i>

Like I said above, the Maxtor FDB drives only provide a 2.4 decibel drop in noise level and anecdotes I've heard say that there is very little difference in sound level between the two, so I can't possibly see how Western Digital's would be any different.

<i>Oh yes forgot about ambient temps.. Is there anything for 3.5" bays to lower noise levels? Like no vibes iii in a 3.5" format?...</i>

No I'm afraid not. Why not buy a fan, get a 3 to 4 pin cable adapter, and get a fanmate to adjust its speed to the lowest setting, then attach this fan to your hard drive just like the setup you saw at the noise control web site?

<i>Ok so both products help trap sound pressure... Would rubber washers be just as good as akasa pax mate for case fans?...</i>

Rubber washes would definitely not be as effective as Pax Mate. Rubber washers help--but even that is sketchy. A few people have said that rubber washers do nothing to help their case, and the best accounts say that it helps only a little.

<i>I don't think my fans really vibrate as they are screwed on tight to the case and same goes with the heatsink..</i>

While your computer is running try doing a test. Feel the outside of your case in different areas. If it vibrates *at all* then your case is creating excess noise through sound pressure. Now it's impossible to elminate this completely and you can reduce it by as much as 90%, but more reasonably by 50%.

That said, securely attached fans will still cause your case to vibrate. With loose screws it will rattle, but with tight screws it will too. This is because the fan's radial movement can still transfer vibrations very efficiently to the case due to sound energy transfer. Everything can be measured in terms of energy. Let's say the sound coming from the fan is energy. Some of that energy bounces around the case and reverberates a bit. That is sound power. However, because the fan DOES have moving parts, this kinetic energy transfers itself to the case, and the case can do nothing else but rattle itself in return, and you end up hearing all of this. What rubber is supposed to do is absorb some of the kinetic energy and transfer it into a noiseless conduit: the rubber. After all we know that rubber doesn't make much sound when it vibrates. The Pax Mate is an enhanced version of rubber. It basically takes this idea that the kinetic energy (essentially vibrations which cause sound) can be transferred to materials that can dissipate this energy without making as much noise as the metal rattling inside of your case. In other words, when Pax Mate rattles at let's say 5,000 hertz, it will make less sound than when a sheet of aluminum rattles at the same frequency. It's an efficient vibration dissipater, and it works very well. As an aside, Pax Mate does NOT cause hysteresis because it does not have any metallic parts, only foam. So you can put it on your fans.

<i>Okay what about putting strips of the Akasa Pax Mate between each side of the hardrives? would that work? It'll probably make my hardrives a little warmer but if it will help prevent sound pressure that's already good enough..</i>

I wouldn't take the risk. I myself have thought about it, but this material kind of insulates so I bet it would raise your drive temperature a bit. What is the highest ambient temperature where you live? If it is 33 C then I would definitely get a quiet Panaflo fan or something to attach to a Fanmate and then use that to cool your hard drive. If outside temperature is 27 or 28 C then I think you should be safe trying this technique out.

<i>Are case fans very important? I was thinking about changing the fans in my case to quiet Papst one. But I'm not sure how it will affect my airflow in my case... Do you have any idea what the recommend amount of air should be for intake and exhaust fans in CFMs?</i>

Other people in this forum could help you answer this question. There's a lot of debate as to exactly how to handle case air flow, and I think it's in part because we have so many different computers and stories to tell about how we reduced their temps. Overall I believe the consensus is that you must have some sort of intake and exhaust, and that a good power supply with a bottom intake fan to draw hot air away from the CPU doesn't hurt. From my experience, you could probably get away with quieter fans in your case as long as your CPU heatsink and its thermal contact to your CPU core is good. What heatsink, fan, and thermal paste are you using?

<i>Do you have any idea what the recommend amount of air should be for intake and exhaust fans in CFMs?</i>

My 2 intake fans right now are running at around 10CFM's each, which makes them very quiet. My exhaust fan is running at about 25 CFM. I've found that this is enough for me to keep my computer cool, but you might not want to skimp on intake so much if you live in a warmer climate.

This little cathode light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine!
July 15, 2002 9:12:40 PM

Wow. thanks for the post!

You see the problem is with my case is that there is ONLY 4 5.25" bays... I already used two for cd writer and dvd-rom drive which is why I'm trying to find anything for 3.5" bays..

Is the Akasa Pax Mate currently the best noise dampering mat?
I seen other stuff like melamine foam but no idea if they are any better..

Okay yes my case vibrates but it doesn't seem to be a whole lot.. mostly on the left panel of my case..

Well if I insulate the hardrive on both sides and have an 80mm fan in front of the hardrive would there still be a large risk? And if I remembered, doesn't the bottom of the hardrive generate the most heat?..

If I add a Panaflo fan, isn't that just like adding more to the noise level? My theory is the more fans you have the more louder it gets so I'm trying to stay with a maximum of 8 fans..two intakes 1 exhaust, 1 blowhole, 2 for PSU, and 1 for heatsink.. and later 1 for video card..


Okay I'm using the stock intel heatsink cooler right at this moment but I'm planning to switch it to a bare Swiftech MCX-4000 heatsink and add a 92mm Panaflo 27dbA 42.7 CFM and artic silver III of course for thermal contact.
All of my case fans are 80mm Y.S Tech which run at 27CFM at 22.5dbA and to my opinion I think it's a little bit on the loud side....

I really think the best option for silent cooling is still water cooling if the pump is silent as I've never experienced with one before. But switching to watercooling would mean that I'd have to change my case to something larger but that would also mean NO more fans except for that one 120mm for the radiator and 2 PSU fans...
July 16, 2002 2:06:48 AM

<i>Is the Akasa Pax Mate currently the best noise dampering mat?
I seen other stuff like melamine foam but no idea if they are any better..</i>

There's Dynamat too, but I can't find any store that sells it now. I don't believe, at this point, that it is better than Pax Mate. And I would recommend Pax Mate over it because Dynamat has aluminum and that could short out components in your computer or cause hysteresis in fans. Melamine foam I have no experience with. Pax Mate is made specifically for computers by the way, while the others are adapted from things like cars, so I would imagine Pax Mate would be more specialized for reducing vibrations of small DC fans.

<i>Okay yes my case vibrates but it doesn't seem to be a whole lot.. mostly on the left panel of my case..</i>

The case shouldn't be rattling very much at all. You should also check to see if the fans themselves are rattling by touching them on the side while they are running (be careful). You can also check the fan on your CPU cooler. You should try to minimize or remove as much vibration as you possibly can until you can barely feel any vibrations. This is best done with vibration absorbing material like Pax Mate, so if you can I'd still recommend you stuff this inside your case. It's worth it anyway because you can re-use it for future computer upgrades too.

<i>Well if I insulate the hardrive on both sides and have an 80mm fan in front of the hardrive would there still be a large risk? And if I remembered, doesn't the bottom of the hardrive generate the most heat?..</i>

Trial and error...

Bottom of the drive seems to be the hottest, yeah, so just go with your instincts.

<i>If I add a Panaflo fan, isn't that just like adding more to the noise level? My theory is the more fans you have the more louder it gets so I'm trying to stay with a maximum of 8 fans..two intakes 1 exhaust, 1 blowhole, 2 for PSU, and 1 for heatsink.. and later 1 for video card..</i>

But if you attach a fanmate to it and reduce fan speed to the lowest possible setting it'll be... what... 10-15 decibels? I don't think even a mouse would be bothered by a fan running at such a slow speed. Remember the main job of this fan is not to create pressure through high RPM but mostly to push away the hot air that the hard drive creates and make room for cooler air to rush in. Circulation, in other words. And because both this fan and the hard drive will be isolated from the case due to the No Vibes it should create almost no sound pressure.

<i>Okay I'm using the stock intel heatsink cooler right at this moment but I'm planning to switch it to a bare Swiftech MCX-4000 heatsink and add a 92mm Panaflo 27dbA 42.7 CFM and artic silver III of course for thermal contact.
All of my case fans are 80mm Y.S Tech which run at 27CFM at 22.5dbA and to my opinion I think it's a little bit on the loud side....</i>

It might be hard to remove the stock heatsink as the thermal pad has probably seeped into everything. It might take you up to an hour just to remove that goo. Try removing it with the cap of a pen while you're watching something boring on tv... like friends. Once you get it all off and use a thin layer of arctic silver iii you'll be able to run your fan at a much slower speed, perhaps 2500 rpm if you put a thin enough layer on. Don't go too thin of course or else it's worthless. As for fan noise, yes it can build up when you have multiple fans. But probably not as fast as you'd think. The main problem with having multiple fans I believe is that they add more sound pressure, meaning the case will rattle more. In fact sound power only increases at +10% db for each fan you add... so it would take about 10 fans to double the sound level when you have just one fan.

One fan: 22.5dB
10 fans: 45.0dB

<i>I really think the best option for silent cooling is still water cooling if the pump is silent as I've never experienced with one before. But switching to watercooling would mean that I'd have to change my case to something larger but that would also mean NO more fans except for that one 120mm for the radiator and 2 PSU fans...</i>

Water cooling is still the most silent option, yes. But it's extremely expensive, and to cool everything you'd have to spend around $250 if you bought a kit. ($200 for kit+$50 for video card water block) I think you should experiment first. Here's what you can do right now:

1) Try starting up your computer with your hard drive running. Then try starting up your computer without the hard drive powered. Is there a noise level difference? If so you can get an idea of what the Noise control no vibes will do for you.
2) If you get some Pax Mate from <A HREF="http://www.openlinx.net/cgi-bin-openlinx/PerlShop.cgi?A..." target="_new">here</A> it'll only cost you about $20 (shipping included) and should have enough to cover a large portion of your case. There's no easy way to test this, but it helps a lot more than you'd think.

Finally keep this in mind:

1) Even with water cooling, you'd still have to have a power supply fan, like you said, and the hard drive. The PSU fan shouldn't be that loud, but the hard drive will be. The No Vibes III will help you, whether you go for watercooling or not.
2) Even if you went for water cooling, the Pax Mate would still help you out because at the very least you could use it on possibly your power supply and the 120mm fan. This stuff is very useful. I believe you will find this stuff so useful that you will think about putting it into your old computers (if you have any). It's extremely cheap too.

If you ever get enough money to get a water cooling setup then that probably is better than all of this. But the only reason for doing this is to save money... also it's very easy to put strips of foam on your case or assemble a drive rack. It should take you in all no more than 20 minutes. Water cooling is and has always been a little more complicated and requires maintenance, such as checking bacterial levels and contamination in the metals, as well as replacing the water every couple of months.

This little cathode light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine!
July 17, 2002 2:39:50 AM

I know nothing about this product i just know bulls**t when i see it.

CharlesHF from overclockers says " I think this article was horrible.
It was a complete advertisement for Innovatek." implying that THG was bought or something and say that the product sucks.
If he looked at his own page once in a while he could see overclockers review of the innovatek there. I quote:

"The Innovatek Kit is one of the best I have tested. It's extremely easy to set up - actual assembly time is under an hour, two hours tops. What will take time is mounting the radiator into a case - this may require metal cutting skills, etc, depending on the case. Some cases may not require any mods, and in that event, you could be up and running in 24 hours.

Once fitted, the rest is a snap. All told, I think a reasonably handy person can do the whole job, including overnight testing, over a weekend.

Performance results are outstanding and noise levels are significantly below aggressive air cooling options. The components included in the kit (all metric sizes) are first rate. Overall, a worthy purchase. "

That was written by Joe at overclockers.

CharlesHF u r lame and overclockers.com just lost some credability to me.






<font color=purple> english first language nono</font color=purple>
July 17, 2002 3:51:12 AM

Thank you for your brillant review of myself and www.overclockers.com. It is always appreciated. :) 

Let's go over several things: Overclockers.com reviews HSF's and watercooling components on a REGULAR BASIS. Tom's does not. Overclockers.com liked the Innovatek kit, which is perfectly fine and understandable. It IS a good kit with quality construction. (although, that use of differing metals in the same waterblock gets to me) I wasn't talking about the quality of the kit, I was referring to how the article was written. It was completely aimed at advertising for Innovatek. Did you see their previous review of Innovatek vs. Swiftech? They didn't even put the fan on Swiftech's radiator!
1: The title sucked: "Silent and Ice Cold" I hate to tell them, but temps in the 90's to 100's is NOT ice cold. Perhaps you should visit our forums, where many of our members have refrigerated systems commonly running in the negative C* range.
2: The reviewer makes it seem as if ALL PARTS of the kit are required. Most people don't need watercooling, and the few that do usually have it only on the CPU. If you feel like putting it on your northbridge and your GPU, that's fine, too. It's ok with this situation, because he was using a new MSI GeF4 Ti4600, which run nice and toasty. Very few people run these cards now, and the ones that do and think that they need this most likely already know how to watercool. I have no idea why they have the "hard drive cooler," unless you're running lots of hot IBM hard drives, you should be fine. Also, a hard drive cooler should cool the top and bottom, where the spindle is. Not the sides.
3: I can guarantee that the average consumer's computer case does NOT have 8 fans in it, like what was said in the article.
4: "A little extra pocket change." I don't know too many people who have an extra $338 that they can just lay down and buy a watercooling system without thinking about it.
5: Tom gloats over how they got the video in 3 languages. Well, good for him. Wow, what an accomplishment.
6: They said that Innovatek owns the watercooling market. Most hardcore watercooling people don't use Innovatek, they use something better.
7: I love the way that they were talking about how silent the system is, and then they say that they ran the fan at 5 volts. What average joe sixpack is going to hack the lines coming from his PSU to make his system quiet? If they're going to show someone how to have a "silent & ice cold" PC, they should show them EVERYTHING, including the 5v mod.
8. "The best radiator currently available." They pretend that they know plenty about watercooling, and yet they say THIS. If you know watercooling, you know that a heater core is the way to go. They're the least flow restrictive, and usually the best for the job. They're also cheap compared to this thing; you can get the right one from any automotive parts store.
9: "You should not use silver paste because the copper contact plate is very flat." Obviously this reviewer knows very little about CPU cooling. No matter how flat you "think" the waterblock is, there are always microscopic hills, valleys, and ridges that need to be filled in. Arctic Silver III does this; it's the best out of all thermal pastes. BTW, if you DO use silione goop, don't put a huge blob on the core like ther reviewer did. That REDUCES cooling. Too much of the thermal compound will greatly reduce heat transfer from the CPU to the waterblock. You only need a little.
10: I like how he says that "distilled water is best," but shows 2 other colored options. I also like how he'll get stuff living in his sytem after a while. He could have at least mentioned using water wetter to reduce the surface tension (must better than soap) and to help kill biologicals.
11: The conclusion, "High Performance and Silent Operation " could have used some work. Where is the evidence for this "High Performance and Silent Operation,"?? He did not show us temps, nor did he measure sound. He just expects us to believe how well it works. Also, the first paragraph of the conclusion is a complete advertisement for Innovatek:
"None of the well-known manufacturers offer PC systems with perfect cooling for all components (CPU, graphics card, chipset, hard disk) and noiseless operation as well - this is what we achieve with the PC system that we built here."
I'd have to say that Koolance does. And, they didn't "build" a cooling system. They had the parts shipped to them to test, they put a few waterblocks on, and connected a few water lines. Wow, that's really "building" a watercooling system. Why don't you come over to overclockers, where plenty of people "build" their own systems. They mill their own waterblocks. That's "building" your own system. Buying a complete kit isn't "building" your own system.


As to your comments:
"I know nothing about this product..." If you don't know about something, ASK before posting about it. It's better to keep your mouth shut and look like an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. ;)  Trying to demean my intelligence just shows the lack of your own.
"i just know bulls**t when i see it"---then why did you post?
"If he looked at his own page once in a while he could see overclockers review of the innovatek there"---I do look at it. EVERY time I open up my browser, as it is my homepage. I also read the Innovatek review the day that it came out. And, unlike Tom's review, it was unbiased.

PS: Flaming in forums is usually frowned upon.
Have a good day, sir. :) 
CharlesHF


Soyo Dragon+ Motherboard
AMD Athlon XP 1600+ AGKGA-Y
H20 Bong Cooled
256MB DDR RAM
July 17, 2002 9:38:34 AM

I have only one thing to say: Seagate Barracuda with fluid suspension is virtually silent. I have to put my ear really close to it to even hear it read/write. It's by far the best choice in harddrive at the moment.

Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
July 17, 2002 9:50:45 AM

Two sites ran out of stock for Innovatek water coolers 2 weeks straight because they said people from THG had read the article and wanted to purchase the kit. Now I wonder how many people really got their money's worth, and how many people are actually using the right liquid...

This little cathode light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine!
!