Not bad (semi-happy ending to week long problem)

[Woodman]

When i first bought my case & all my hardware, i set it all up nice & neat. I assumed that since i didnt buy the best HSF or Thermal paste, that i would end up with temperatures hovering around the 50s (which was acceptable to me). The specs are as follows:

Asus A7V266-C
AthlonXP 1700+
Samsung 256MB PC2100
HSF - Coolermaster AAC-001 (Aluminum)
Paste - Coolermaster HTK-001 (Aluminum paste)
PSU with 2 fans (intake below & exhaust above)

Unfortunatly, it turned out that my CPU temperatures rose gradually all the way to 80C (under load)! My environment was partly to blame, i lacked an air-con & my room temperature is about 30C (sometimes going to 35C).

So last week i decided to buy a new 80mm case fan for 2 bucks (just 1, unknown how many CFM) to see if anything changed. The only reasonable place where i could put it was at the back, directly below the intake fan of the PSU & right next to the HSF.

At first i tried making it an intake fan, while that helped at first, it gradually rose to 65C idle & 75C load. Not much of an improvement really. So i reversed it to an exhaust fan, which decreased the temperatures down slightly. My idle temperature then became 63C idle & 70-72C load. Its still not good enough for me unfortunatly. So i lowered my FSB, making my CPU run at 1.1GHz until a solution can be found.


At around that time, i was making plans for adding an additional 80mm fan in the front, in the lower part of my case. I was asking questions here about various locations & popular arrangements among other things (thanks again ). Since i didnt want to cut up my case without knowing what'll happen, i decided to try out something i hadnt thought of before.

I have this standing fan which i use for my room (id say about 500mm) & i turned it on at the highest RPM speed right in front of my case (bay covers removed). I tested it with my 1700+ back at 1.46GHz & low & behold my temperatures were perfect. Idle was 50C & load was 55C.


Now in order for me to reproduce those kinds of temperature again, i had to mount a fan not in the case itself, but in the 5" bays (below my CDR). Originally, i was planning to mount an 80mm fan in the bay covers to suck air into a tube, which would flow directly to the CPU (which i will definatly try later on), but right now, ill have to make it work without a tube.

I took 2 plain looking bay covers & made the necessary adjustments in order to fit an 80mm fan. Wasnt easy, since all i had was a drill, a wire cutter & a hand metal saw. It took me 2 hours, but it worked & looks pretty good.

I didnt want to waste any more of my cash for these fans (just for testing afterall), so i took out my 80mm fan which i bought, & placed it on the modified bay covers.


I checked the temperatures (1.46GHz) & damn, im very pleased My cheapo case fan wasnt as bad as i thought.
Idle = 59C, Load = 64C


Here's my question, if i were to buy a fan, which would you suggest? Something around 7000RPM? Or perhaps a more reasonable 4000RPM fan? I am planning to buy 2 of them, one for the back & 1 for the front, so they have to work well. Next question, im sure some of you already tried tubing in air, but my question is, how does one screw the tube into the fan itself? Is there some special method you all know?

Also, is there any way to calculate CFM from these fans? Just curious.

Thanks

 

[Woodman]

Here's what it looks like (ill replace that black cover for a metal grill later ):
http://nrakjar.clanpages.com/fan1.jpg (100kb)

 

[Woodman]

I bought a new case fan today, 80mm to be exact. Since i wanted to duplicate the amount of CFM my room fan delivered to my system, i bought a nice, powerful looking one.

Little did i realize, it was the fastest 80mm fan in the world! Yes, its the Delta FFB0812EHE. Surprising thing was, it didnt fall or come lose from my flimsy bay-cover mod.

The unfortunate thing was that its unbelievably loud, exactly like a hair-blower. And after searching for some fan controllers on the net, it seems none of them will support it (consumes something like 10W).

I have no choice but to return it tomorrow & exchange it with 2 30dba fans (thank god i only bought 1) & some Arctic Silver 3 paste (hopefully they'll accept it).

Experience gained : 52dba is <b>loud</b>

 

[squeegee]

nice work. 30db fans should be much quieter for you =) I haven't actually heard a delta, but the likeness you made to a hairdryer scares me.

 

[Woodman]

Hehheh, thanks . Well i should be going in a few hours time (crosses fingers & hope the shopkeepers are nice to me ).

Now the question is, if i get 2 30dba fans, would the sound equal 60dba?

 

[Woodman]

There's hope in Hong Kong shopkeepers yet heh

Yes, ive exchanged that jet-engine of a fan for a tube of Arctic Silver3 & 2 Enermax fans (intake & exhaust). And my gosh, what a difference They're performing wonderfully, with idle CPU temperature at 55C & load at 60C, almost exactly the results that Delta fan gave me.

I expect the temperatures to drop further with more tweaks (cutting a proper exhaust hole at the back, increasing intake hole by 1cm, etc..). But ill never forget that fan, boy what a monster.

 

[bw37]

Here's a good site to hear the noise (type and volume) difference between fans:

<A HREF="http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/tecar.html" target="_new">http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/tecar.html</A>

As you'll see there are huge differences. To get a feel for the actual volume, you really need a reference that you know so you can adjust your volume to match.

BW

 

[GearJammer2513]

Depending on how warm your room is, it might be feasible to mod the case by cutting a hole in the side pannel in-line with the HSF. I did that and my temps dropped from the upper 50's to 39C/47C (idle/load).

I used this tool to make the hole:

<A HREF="http://www.sears.com/sr/product/summary/productsummary.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@1269425595.1025985832@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccfiadcfiimfgdecehgcemgdffmdfin.0&vertical=TOOL&fromAuto=YES&bidsite=&pid=00925293000" target="_new">"Metal Circle Cutting Tool"</A>

This is only an idea to think about if you are still testing. To give the theory a try, get yourself a piece of cardboard to replace the case side and cut the hole in that and put your 80mm fan in the hole to blow into the HSF. If you get favorable results, then you can do some measuring to find the center of the HSF on the case side and mark it to use the tool.

GearJammer
<i><font color=blue>It takes 10 'Attaboys' to make up for 1 'Awww...crap!'</font color=blue></i>

 

[Crashman]

Two 30db fans will creat 33DB of noise. This is also true of speakers, a 300W amplifier is only twice as loud (10DB) as a 30W amplifier.

<font color=blue>At least half of all problems are caused by an insufficient power supply!</font color=blue>

 

[cakecake]

Very interesting facts, Crashman.

I think that once you add an exhaust fan to your system it will cool down considerably. There are lots of capacitors and mosfets that get really hot and they contribute heat to your processor. Meanwhile without exhaust the heat just builds up. You really don't need to run your fans all that fast, truthfully. If you have decent airflow you can run them slow even in warm weather.

My system is set up with really slow fans and works wonderfully so with proper flow yours should work well too. I have a lian-li PC60 case with Dynamat. My front intake fans are moving at 1000 RPM, my volcano 7+ CPU fan at 1500 RPM, and my exhaust at about 2000 RPM, so I think it's not too hard to make a quiet system with fans. I just did a test, and my temps for idle and load right now are 45/48 (during really hot weather its 46/52 and really cold mornings its 41/46). Increasing my CPU fan speed to ~5869 RPM reduces CPU temps for idle and load to 40/42. I don't even have a bottom intake fan for my PSU. In total I have 6 fans running at once: 1 PSU, 1 CPU, 2 intake, 1 exhaust, and 1 GPU. I turned off the top blowhole in my case but if I turned that on and got a 2 fan PSU I'd have no less than 8 fans!

Actually the two loudest things in my case right now are my 7200 RPM hard drive and my power supply. I'm going to replace the PSU with something quieter that has bottom intake but the hard drive still gives off a whine that annoys me. At first the vibration from the hard drive was causing the entire case to reverberate with the noise and it was loud. I eventually used the rubber band suspension bridge trick and that helped a lot.

Eventually what I plan on doing from here is getting a PSU with bottom intake. That way I can rheostat my exhaust fan and reduce its speed. Then I might eventually get one of those Maxtor FDB drives and I'll definitely have a quieter system. Finally I'm going to try to get a noise dampening setup for my CD-ROM drive.

That said, I would suggest you do these things:

(1) Get an exhaust fan ASAP (which you're already doing)
(2) Use the suspension bridge trick with your hard drive! Or you can try <A HREF="http://www.frozencpu.com/cgi-bin/frozencpu/noi-02.html" target="_new">this kit</A>, but it's pretty expensive. Review of the kit <A HREF="http://www.dansdata.com/novibes.htm" target="_new">here</A>.
(3) Get <A HREF="http://www.dynamat.com/computer_kits.htm" target="_new">Dynamat</A> or <A HREF="http://www.frozencpu.com/cgi-bin/frozencpu/noi-01.html" target="_new">Akasa</A> pax mat! It's amazing how much this helps. I don't know how well Akasa's works, apparently it smells for about 2 weeks after applying it. Read here to see if it's any good: <A HREF="http://3057.rapidforum.com/?topic=100788934689&setclienttimezone=420" target="_new">1</A> and <A HREF="http://www.viperlair.com/archives/reviews/misc/case_mod/paxmate.htm" target="_new">2</A>
(4) Buy <A HREF="http://www.directron.com/fanmate.html" target="_new">fanmates</A> and <A HREF="http://www.pccables.com/cgi-bin/orders6.cgi?action=Showitem&id=ID220547&partno=07056&search=POWER&rsite=www.pccables.com&rcode=" target="_new">3 to 4 pin adapters</A>. This way you can control the speed of each individual case fan you have.

Each of these 4 suggestions will help with noise (actually I think everyone reading this post should try these). They aren't just little 1 decibel differences, so you really might consider looking into these because collectively they will work wonders for you. Best of all these suggestions don't cost a huge amount of money like a water cooling system does and they are easy to use. Good luck!

This little cathode light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine!

 

[cakecake]

Some people just use a CD to mark and cut a circle but that tool is probably much easier to use.

 

[spets]

holy batman, 80 degrees is HOT! twenty more degrees and you can boil water on your computer!

might want to look into liquid nitrogen cooling, or the like

Waiting...Watching

 

[Woodman]

<b>"Here's a good site to hear the noise (type and volume) difference between fans:"</b>
Ahh thanks bw37, it should prove very useful if & when i decide to buy more fans. Thanks


<b>"Depending on how warm your room is, it might be feasible to mod the case by cutting a hole in the side pannel in-line with the HSF. I did that and my temps dropped from the upper 50's to 39C/47C (idle/load)."</b>
Yes i have considered that, unfortunatly i had to drop that idea since the air wouldnt be fresh at all. It'll mostly be warm/hot, since its coming in directly from my monitor 10 inches away.

I'll try to find that tool later on, it looks great & easy to use (not to mention cheap ). Thanks anyways GearJammer2513.


<b>"Two 30db fans will creat 33DB of noise. This is also true of speakers, a 300W amplifier is only twice as loud (10DB) as a 30W amplifier."</b>
Gosh i didnt know that, & i agree with cakecake, its very helpful advice mate, thanks .


Cakecake:
<b>"I think that once you add an exhaust fan to your system it will cool down considerably. There are lots of capacitors and mosfets that get really hot and they contribute heat to your processor. Meanwhile without exhaust the heat just builds up. You really don't need to run your fans all that fast, truthfully. If you have decent airflow you can run them slow even in warm weather."</b>
Yes that partially complete, the 2 Enermax fans are doing a good job so far. All thats left is cutting a more substantial hole at the back to deal with the airflow & ill leave that for later .


<b>"My system is set up with really slow fans and works wonderfully so with proper flow yours should work well too. I have a lian-li PC60 case with Dynamat. My front intake fans are moving at 1000 RPM, my volcano 7+ CPU fan at 1500 RPM, and my exhaust at about 2000 RPM, so I think it's not too hard to make a quiet system with fans. I just did a test, and my temps for idle and load right now are 45/48 (during really hot weather its 46/52 and really cold mornings its 41/46). Increasing my CPU fan speed to ~5869 RPM reduces CPU temps for idle and load to 40/42. I don't even have a bottom intake fan for my PSU. In total I have 6 fans running at once: 1 PSU, 1 CPU, 2 intake, 1 exhaust, and 1 GPU. I turned off the top blowhole in my case but if I turned that on and got a 2 fan PSU I'd have no less than 8 fans!"</b>
Those are really impressive results mate, especially with those speeds! Cant say much except that im a bit jealous heh . One question tho, does your system run in an air-conditioned room?


<b>"Actually the two loudest things in my case right now are my 7200 RPM hard drive and my power supply. I'm going to replace the PSU with something quieter that has bottom intake but the hard drive still gives off a whine that annoys me. At first the vibration from the hard drive was causing the entire case to reverberate with the noise and it was loud. I eventually used the rubber band suspension bridge trick and that helped a lot."</b>
Hrmm, very very interesting. So how loud is a 7200RPM drive (or how much do you think it is)? Since im going to be getting one soon, i dont want a repeat of the Delta incident.

And if you dont mind, could you go further with that rubber band trick? Sound like something funny .


<b>"(1) Get an exhaust fan ASAP (which you're already doing)"</b>
Yes


<b>"(2) Use the suspension bridge trick with your hard drive! Or you can try this kit, but it's pretty expensive. Review of the kit here."</b>
Yes it is, id rather use this trick if i need it heh.


<b>"(3) Get Dynamat or Akasa pax mat! It's amazing how much this helps. I don't know how well Akasa's works, apparently it smells for about 2 weeks after applying it. Read here to see if it's any good: 1 and 2"</b>
Unfortunatly i dont think those are available where i live. And since i cant help being paranoid about credit cards (yes, many have tried & failed to convince me otherwise), i cant buy those online.


<b>"(4) Buy fanmates and 3 to 4 pin adapters. This way you can control the speed of each individual case fan you have."</b>
These things are exactly what ill look for if i need them, tho my 2 Enermax are already supplied with speed adjusters so it might not be that necessary.

Thanks a million Cakecake


By the way, since i dont plan on buying anything to help me cut my case for now, tomorrow ill give an update on how ill accomplish it, should be interesting (hope i dont cut my fingers ).

 

[cakecake]

<i>Those are really impressive results mate, especially with those speeds! Cant say much except that im a bit jealous heh . One question tho, does your system run in an air-conditioned room?</i>

Thanks! Was just trying to let you know what I had in case you wanted to compare it to your system. After all, a cooled PC is all about fine tuning and tweaking. My room is not air conditioned actually. I just live in a cooler climate. Usually the temperature is around 21C/72F. Even if the place I lived in was 30C/90F all of the time my system would still be under spec if I simply raised my CPU fan to around 2500RPM.

<i>Hrmm, very very interesting. So how loud is a 7200RPM drive (or how much do you think it is)? Since im going to be getting one soon, i dont want a repeat of the Delta incident.

And if you dont mind, could you go further with that rubber band trick? Sound like something funny .</i>

The problem with hard drives is that if they're attached securely to a case with screws they transfer vibrations very efficiently, and these vibrations cause sound, much like the vibrating strings on a guitar or violin make sound. With just about any 7200 RPM drive you will have quite a bit of sound created by the vibrations if the drive is attached securely to your case using metal screws. But the drive itself isn't loud other than the "Tck"ing sound it makes when reading or writing data. The suspension bridge trick just requires a few rubber bands (I used 8), hopefully of the same length and fairly thick. What you do is string them through a 5 1/4 bay so that they form a "mat" of rubber. Then all you do is rest your hard drive on that mat. The problem with this is that your PC doesn't transport very well--however, the acoustic benefits are very nice. What I did was I cut rubber bands into long strings (by making one cut anywhere in the loop). I then combined these strings into groups of two, and tied each group together using a standard knot on both ends. In the end what I had was strings of rubber bands that had knots on both ends that I could insert into the 5 1/4 bay and the knots would hold them stretched in place. However, that wasn't sturdy enough (the knots could slip through the holes), so I took more rubber bands and strung them through the 5 1/4 bay so that their "loops" strangled the long rubber bands at the base of the knots I had tied for them (inspiration came from my jacket's zipper). This ensured that even if something heavy was put on them they would not slip out. In total I believe I used 8 pairs of two rubber bands tied together at both ends. Took me about 20 minutes and it's pretty secure. Secure enough that it hasn't fallen out when I've opened up my case numerous times or when the CD-ROM was running at full blast. It worked wonders for me and it's sure better than spending $30, even though the noisecontrol system will definitely let you transport your computer while this one will not.

<i>Unfortunatly i dont think those are available where i live. And since i cant help being paranoid about credit cards (yes, many have tried & failed to convince me otherwise), i cant buy those online.</i>

You could try using debit or check cards. Those have no obligatory monthly payments and you can never borrow money, only spend what you have physically put into your account, so there's no interest to pay. They're the same as using plastic cash.

<i>These things are exactly what ill look for if i need them, tho my 2 Enermax are already supplied with speed adjusters so it might not be that necessary.</i>

Sounds good! If you <i>really</i> wanted to fine tune your system these would probably be good for your other case fans, such as intake and exhaust. A fanmate would also work with your CPU fan, and probably with your GPU fan if you wanted to reduce noise on that too.

Good luck! Hope you get a nice, quiet system!

Another review of the Paxmate and hopefully, more reasons to buy it! <A HREF="http://www.hwguru.com/view_review.asp?reviewid=21" target="_new">HWGuru</A><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by cakecake on 07/07/02 10:47 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[Woodman]

<b>"Thanks! Was just trying to let you know what I had in case you wanted to compare it to your system. After all, a cooled PC is all about fine tuning and tweaking. My room is not air conditioned actually. I just live in a cooler climate. Usually the temperature is around 21C/72F. Even if the place I lived in was 30C/90F all of the time my system would still be under spec if I simply raised my CPU fan to around 2500RPM."</b>
Ahh i see .

As for the harddrive thing, will these rubber bands melt or something? Ill try to come up with something unique to handle my future 7200RPM HDD (should noise problems occur). Thanks for your advice .


Last update:
Yesterday i went ahead & tried to cut a more substantial exhause hole beind my case. Unfortunatly it didnt went very well. It was cutting fairly fast, but i could see how it was progressing & i had to stop. Turns out the cutting room was very small & very uneven, eventually it wouldnt look very good.

So ill leave it the way it is (55C-60C isnt bad considering it used to be 20C-25C hotter) & deal with it later on when i have the money to purchase more robust tools (like the Dremel tool).

I thank you all for your time & patience & now i must return to my other home Until next time.