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Mobhunter: The Equipment Gap

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Anonymous
July 5, 2005 3:38:22 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

The Equipment Gap

by Loral on June 25, 2005

"Remember how Kunark came out and suddenly players and items were just
so much more powerful than in the original game? Remember when Velious
came out and it seemed at first that items were only increasing in
effectiveness by a small margin? Well, throw the curve out the window,
students, because there is not just a gap between good items and
awesome items, there's a freaking canyon."

- Moorgard, 29 June 2001, Mobhunter

Over the past few weeks we have talked about the fan faire, the new
expansion, and some of the new directions SOE has taken Everquest. This
week I thought we would take a step back and talk about a topic in
Everquest that has been around since the days of Kunark: Equipment
balance.

No doubt this article will ruffle a few feathers. My intent, however,
is not to focus on one particular style of play but instead to look at
the details of this topic that often get lost. If all you see is "Loral
wants better gear for the casual gamer again" then you're probably not
reading hard enough.

There comes a point at the highest levels of the game when equipment
can double the power between two equally leveled players. This
generally only happens at the highest levels, right now between levels
65 and 70.

Consider these two pieces of equipment:

Faithbringer's Breastplate of Conviction: AC: +125 Str: +30 Dex: +25
Sta: +30 Cha: +25 Agi: +25 Fire Resist: +30 Cold Resist: +30 Magic
Resist: +30 Poison Resist: +35 HP: +315 Mana: +355, Mana Regeneration:
+5, Regeneration: +10, Avoidance: +10, Shielding: +5%, Spell Shield:
+6%, Effect: Blessed Healing Aura: Increase Healing by 50%, Focus
Effect: Keldovan's Light: Decrease Spell Mana Cost by 25%, Required
Level: 70

Plate Vest of the First Order: AC: +72 Dex: +12 Sta: +12 Wis: +12 Int:
+12 Agi: +12 Fire Resist: +13 Disease Resist: +13 Cold Resist: +13
Poison Resist: +13 HP: +125 Mana: +120 End: +120, Required Level: 70

I want you to pay particular attention to the last part of these two
lines: "Required Level: 70". These items are designed for the same
level character. Yet the power of the first item is well over twice the
power of the second especially when one considers the focus effects,
regen, mana regen, avoidance, and shielding.

No doubt the difficulty in acquiring these items is vastly different.
One can be purchased from the Dragons of Norrath vendor after
completing somewhere between 7 and 12 missions. The other requires
drops from the Arch Magus or Overlord Mata Muram in Anguish.

Obviously, these items don't compare in either power or in the
difficulty to receive it. However, there are some areas where these
items must be compared.

Encounters are based on levels, not equipment. At level 70, the same
creatures are dark blue to you regardless of your equipment. The same
mobs give the same experience regardless of your gear. Yet, based on
the power of your equipment, an encounter could be either impossible or
trivial depending on what type of equipment you use.

At level 70, level no longer accurately describes how powerful you are.
Yet systems in the game continue to use level as a way to determine
encounter difficulty. Lost Dungeon adventures and Dragons of Norrath
missions scale their content based on level, not equipment. The Omens
of War Task system and the quests given to you in Dragons of Norrath
are based on level, not gear. Some of these are trivial to
well-equipped players and impossible for the rest.

Even those with the best equipment expect growth yet they cannot get it
from single-group hunts. Not everyone raids all the time. There comes a
time when even high-end raiders want to get together in a group of six
and fight an appropriate challenge. At the highest end, even the most
powerful single-group areas offer little reward for high-end raiders.
High-end raiders cannot increase their equipment power in single-group
events. This leads them towards a "raid or nothing" attitude. Why
bother hunting anywhere if there is no reward for doing so?

One single-group hunting zone or mission cannot challenge both
single-group equipped players and high-end raid equipped players. No
challenge will be acceptable to both groups. I hear it often.
Riftseekers is too easy for raid-equipped players and too hard for
single-group equipped players. The only players who seem to find the
perfect challenge in this high-end zone are those who happen to be
equipped with Time or Elemental gear of roughly 150 hps and mana each.

The power gap will come back as a hot topic when Depths of Darkhollow
brings us monster templates based on level. If these templates are
built around single-group equipment, raiders will find them extremely
low powered for the level. If they are built around raid-level
equipment, they will be more powerful than many players' main
characters. The only answer is to base them on single-group equipment
and accept that raiders will find them extremely low powered.

How can SOE begin to close the equipment gap? There are few, if any,
easy answers. It isn't just a matter of offering better equipment for
single-group encounters. Doing so devalues the reward of higher-end
raid encounters.

It is not unreasonable to expect that the absolute best single-group
equipment available should meet 75% of the absolute best raid-level
equipment. If a cleric breastplate from Overlord Mata Muram includes a
50% healing focus and 355 mana, a breastplate from the hardest
single-group encounter might offer 250 mana and a 35% healing focus.

Even with gear 75% of high-end raid gear there isn't anything to say
that difficult single-group zones will still be impossible for
non-raiders. In places like Riftseekers that extra 25% power makes the
difference between success and failure.

A more difficult solution would be to add some sort of "legendary"
status to items. Items with this status could have different statistics
when used during a raid than they do when used during single-group
events. This lets equipment balance out during single-group events but
meet the proper requirements during raid events.

Another solution, also radical, would be to add in a Dungeons and
Dragons style "power level". Equipment and levels could combine into a
single power rating that determines the difficulty of an encounter.
However, after playing 3rd edition D&D for a year now, the power level
in D&D isn't very accurate and doesn't help much when matched to
challenges. There is nothing to say that a power level in EQ would be
any more accurate, but perhaps it would help.

Every new expansion increases the power for both raiders and
non-raiders. With the recent addition of slot 9 augments to Dragons of
Norrath gear, single-group players now have customizable armor
comparable to Elemental and Time level armor. More of Norrath becomes
accessible to more players with every increase in power.

However, it is clear that Everquest becomes very gear dependent at the
highest levels of the game. It has been this way for the last four or
five years and I see few ways to fix this problem without radically
changing the game. As it has been since the days of the Ring War, the
topic of equipment power will always continue to be a hot one.

Loral Ciriclight
26 June 2005
Loral@loralciriclight.com

More about : mobhunter equipment gap

July 6, 2005 12:51:29 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

In article <1120588702.759329.323820@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
mshea01@gmail.com says...

> Even with gear 75% of high-end raid gear there isn't anything to say
> that difficult single-group zones will still be impossible for
> non-raiders. In places like Riftseekers that extra 25% power makes the
> difference between success and failure.

Either you make them the same enough that the raid gear isn't special or
you make them different enough that it matters. And if it matters your
stuck with an impossible to fix 1-group content tuning problem.


No win there.

>
> A more difficult solution would be to add some sort of "legendary"
> status to items. Items with this status could have different statistics
> when used during a raid than they do when used during single-group
> events. This lets equipment balance out during single-group events but
> meet the proper requirements during raid events.

I proposed that nearly a year ago. I should have patented the idea. :p 

http://groups-
beta.google.com/group/alt.games.everquest/browse_frm/thread/34ee2226a166
8d31/9146604e13b7bd8d?
q=raid+gear+stats+group+group:alt.games.everquest&rnum=1&hl=en#
9146604e13b7bd8d

What I find most interesting, is that the raid game has gotten much more
complex since I posted that. Its no longer nearly as true that for the
most part most raiders can get away with inferior gear.

That was in context that there was a notion that only raiders needed the
high quality raid gear. I countered that I felt that by and large group
players "needed" and benefitted from the raid gear more than raiders
did.

That gap has certainly narrowed considerably... but even today its
possible to get gimped through a significant chunk of the raid game
while doing almost nothing.

That all said... separating raid progression from 1 group progression
makes sense though, it did then and it still does now, and I'm all for
it. The 1-group gear should be 95% of the raid gear at each stage of a
paralel progression. The raid gear however should ramp up in a raid.

> Another solution, also radical, would be to add in a Dungeons and
> Dragons style "power level". Equipment and levels could combine into a
> single power rating that determines the difficulty of an encounter.
> However, after playing 3rd edition D&D for a year now, the power level
> in D&D isn't very accurate and doesn't help much when matched to
> challenges. There is nothing to say that a power level in EQ would be
> any more accurate, but perhaps it would help.

Lol... 3 man uber-group looking for a couple gimps to fill some slots to
reduce the average power-level... I know some 70ths who'd benefit from
that. :p 

Of course, whats to stop me from getting nekkid just before requesting
the instance... or is the calculator going to rummage through my bank to
see what i could be wearing...

More importantly...

The real trouble with it is that it really only helps with instanced
encounters that scale power. I don't much care for those in the first
place. I'd be sorely disappointed to see it become the dominant system.

So I think this is a bad move too.
Anonymous
July 6, 2005 5:39:43 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

42 wrote:
> In article <1120588702.759329.323820@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> mshea01@gmail.com says...
>
> > Another solution, also radical, would be to add in a Dungeons and
> > Dragons style "power level". Equipment and levels could combine into a
> > single power rating that determines the difficulty of an encounter.
> > However, after playing 3rd edition D&D for a year now, the power level
> > in D&D isn't very accurate and doesn't help much when matched to
> > challenges. There is nothing to say that a power level in EQ would be
> > any more accurate, but perhaps it would help.
>
> Lol... 3 man uber-group looking for a couple gimps to fill some slots to
> reduce the average power-level... I know some 70ths who'd benefit from
> that. :p 
>
> Of course, whats to stop me from getting nekkid just before requesting
> the instance... or is the calculator going to rummage through my bank to
> see what i could be wearing...
>
> More importantly...
>
> The real trouble with it is that it really only helps with instanced
> encounters that scale power. I don't much care for those in the first
> place. I'd be sorely disappointed to see it become the dominant system.

I don't think that the suggestion was for scaling instanced encounters.
Loral was pointing out that the experience gained from the encounter
was determined purely from level and that this is a problem. I think
that the suggestion was that a mob that conned blue to a single-group
equiped character may con light-blue or green to a raid equipped
character and so would give less experience when defeated. This would
also work with twinking - the twinks would not be able to power-level
due to their great gear - they would have to defeat tougher encounters
to get the same experience as a non-twinked character.

steve.kaye
Anonymous
July 6, 2005 3:23:09 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

<mshea01@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> There comes a point at the highest levels of the game when equipment
> can double the power between two equally leveled players. This
> generally only happens at the highest levels, right now between levels
> 65 and 70.

I have a level 9 warrior twink with nearly 2500 *unbuffed* hp. That's about
10 times higher than the average level 9 warrior.

Sometimes I wonder if Loral and I are playing the same game.

> No doubt the difficulty in acquiring these items is vastly different.

No doubt. One requires raiding. And not just raiding, but a coordinated
progression of 50+ people through at least a couple complete iterations of
full sets of equipment. You can't take 50 people in bazaar bought gear and
take out the hardest mob in the game. You could take them to Time and spend
a month or three gearing up, and then have a *slight* chance. Of course the
more logical thing to do is to then start gearing up through GoD raid
encounters for your third iteration of equipment, and then work your way up
through OoW raid encounters for your fourth iteration in equipment,
culminating in actually being able to acquire that piece you posted for a
single player, with the promise to go back and do the fight until everyone
that wants that item has acquired it, a fight that can be lost if any single
one of those 50 people gets disconnected, distracted, or simply doesn't
respond to the event fast enough.

I can 3-box the other item.

> Obviously, these items don't compare in either power or in the
> difficulty to receive it. However, there are some areas where these
> items must be compared.

No, really, there aren't. There are some areas where you would *like* them
to be compared in irrational and downright silly ways, but the fact of the
matter is I can 3-box one of the items over the course of a few days and the
other takes a year of solid raiding for 50+ people, at *least*, to acquire.


> Even those with the best equipment expect growth yet they cannot get it
> from single-group hunts. Not everyone raids all the time. There comes a
> time when even high-end raiders want to get together in a group of six
> and fight an appropriate challenge. At the highest end, even the most
> powerful single-group areas offer little reward for high-end raiders.
> High-end raiders cannot increase their equipment power in single-group
> events. This leads them towards a "raid or nothing" attitude. Why
> bother hunting anywhere if there is no reward for doing so?

Again, I wonder if we play the same game. Every, every, *every* raider I
know has multiple DoN vendor purchased augments (or could use some).

Of course, I also know *lots* of raiders that raid all the time, and very
seldom group at all. The last time *I* was in a "group" was... hell, I
can't remember.


> It is not unreasonable to expect that the absolute best single-group
> equipment available should meet 75% of the absolute best raid-level
> equipment. If a cleric breastplate from Overlord Mata Muram includes a
> 50% healing focus and 355 mana, a breastplate from the hardest
> single-group encounter might offer 250 mana and a 35% healing focus.

And to actually be fair, that single-group encounter must require the group
to spend a year acquiring the other single-group equipment that will allow
them to have a chance to beat it, do multiple lengthy quests and loot-less,
time-consuming, death count inducing single-group encounters to get the
proper flags to be able to even touch that single-group encounter.

And then rinse and repeat for the other 5 people whose breastplates all drop
in *other* flagged zones with their own lengthy quests and loot-less,
time-consuming, death count inducing single-group encounters to get the
proper flags to be able to get to those encounters. =P

> However, it is clear that Everquest becomes very gear dependent at the
> highest levels of the game. It has been this way for the last four or
> five years and I see few ways to fix this problem without radically
> changing the game. As it has been since the days of the Ring War, the
> topic of equipment power will always continue to be a hot one.

Until people wise up and realize that it isn't a "problem" and doesn't need
"fixed". Too bad people would rather whine out of their sense of
entitlement than actually think things through.
July 6, 2005 9:17:04 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

In article <slrndco1bu.76m.faned@wyld.qx.net>, faned@wyld.qx.net says...

>
> Until people wise up and realize that it isn't a "problem" and doesn't need
> "fixed". Too bad people would rather whine out of their sense of
> entitlement than actually think things through.

Yes, god forbid anyone who isn't a raider feel entitled to play in the
next expansion. They bought it. Their entitled to feel ripped off if
they can't go in deeper than the first couple zones while wearing a
solid kit of 1-groupabble items from the previous expansion, unless they
have some raiders along to hold their hands.

Seriously. The 1-groupers aren't complaining that they can't kill the
GoD boss or that they can't kill the ooW boss...or even that they can't
get the best items in the game per se... they're complaining that they
can't even kill the OoW 1-group content because they aren't Raid
equipped from the previous expansions.

Its a legitimate problem whether raid-snobs want to acknowledge it or
not.
Anonymous
July 6, 2005 9:17:05 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

<nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
> In article <slrndco1bu.76m.faned@wyld.qx.net>, faned@wyld.qx.net says...
>
> >
> > Until people wise up and realize that it isn't a "problem" and doesn't need
> > "fixed". Too bad people would rather whine out of their sense of
> > entitlement than actually think things through.
>
> Yes, god forbid anyone who isn't a raider feel entitled to play in the
> next expansion. They bought it. Their entitled to feel ripped off if
> they can't go in deeper than the first couple zones while wearing a
> solid kit of 1-groupabble items from the previous expansion, unless they
> have some raiders along to hold their hands.

You can stop complaining about PoP now. It's 3 years old. Nobody cares
anymore, not to mention that due to changes over those three years there are
only a half dozen zones that are beyond the reach of a single group,
compared to the majority of them at release.

There have always been locked zones since the very first expansion. Even
Sony realized they overdid it with PoP and undid huge chunks of it. They
haven't repeated that mistake again, as GoD has a grand total of three zones
that aren't single-group accessible, OoW has one, and DoN has one that gets
unlocked *by* raiders for access by everyone.

> Seriously. The 1-groupers aren't complaining that they can't kill the
> GoD boss or that they can't kill the ooW boss...or even that they can't
> get the best items in the game per se... they're complaining that they
> can't even kill the OoW 1-group content because they aren't Raid
> equipped from the previous expansions.
>
> Its a legitimate problem whether raid-snobs want to acknowledge it or
> not.

Hardly. Only fools and idiots think that they can't handle all single-group
content in the game. Only bigger fools and idiots think that they should be
able to jump right to the hardest stuff in the game without working their
way up from easier content to the hardest content, equipping themselves
along the way.

I've *watched* non-raiders progress from NC to WoS to PG to RS, picking up
upgrades the whole way. If they would have gone straight to RS, they'd have
had their ass handed to them and walked away sounding a lot like you...
Anonymous
July 7, 2005 12:32:11 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

42 <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in
news:MPG.1d35b1f7cfb8f3cc989bb5@shawnews.vf.shawcable.net:

> In article <slrndco1bu.76m.faned@wyld.qx.net>, faned@wyld.qx.net
> says...
>
>>
>> Until people wise up and realize that it isn't a "problem" and
>> doesn't need "fixed". Too bad people would rather whine out of their
>> sense of entitlement than actually think things through.
>
> Yes, god forbid anyone who isn't a raider feel entitled to play in the
> next expansion. They bought it. Their entitled to feel ripped off if
> they can't go in deeper than the first couple zones while wearing a
> solid kit of 1-groupabble items from the previous expansion, unless
> they have some raiders along to hold their hands.
>
> Seriously. The 1-groupers aren't complaining that they can't kill the
> GoD boss or that they can't kill the ooW boss...or even that they
> can't get the best items in the game per se... they're complaining
> that they can't even kill the OoW 1-group content because they aren't
> Raid equipped from the previous expansions.
>
> Its a legitimate problem whether raid-snobs want to acknowledge it or
> not.
>

I am mostly raid equipped with a mixture of elemental, pre-elemental, and
one piece of single groupable OOW armor, along with mostly LDoN free or
chaep augments, plus two GoD, available to all single group players
augments, and one quested augment, the key to VP, and one DoN augment
(burning affliction 5). I have zero trouble playing in RSS along with
other who are comparably, or lesser equipped than that. In fact, if
instead, I did nothing but DoN, I would actually have better armor in
many slots, along with far better augments than I currently have. What
single group content is it that you think that cannot be done by non raid
equipped players? DoN seriously raised the bar on what a non raid player
can have equipment wise.

I have yet to find single group content that I, along with a similarly
equipped group, cannot deal with. This is speaking as a raider who has
not made it as far as Time yet, no GoD progression at all.

When PoP came out, I was raiding Velious and Kunark content. When LDoN
came out, I was busy raiding things like BoT boss mobs, and lots of
Velious and Kunark content. When OOW came out, I was making my way to
gaining elemental access (got fire shortly after OOW, other elementals
shortly before), along with still hitting lots of lower tier PoP mobs.
When DoN came out, I was busy hitting elementals, and working towards
Time access. That is where I am today, 3 of 4 elemental bosses down, one
to go for Time access. In addition to that, we regularly hit raid level
OOW mobs that drop Time+ gear, as well as level 69 and 70 runes.

During all this time, I have yet to find any significant amount of single
group content that was inaccessible at my level of play.

When LDoN came out, it gave non raid players the ability to equip in gear
that was comparable to, or better than what I had as a non end game
raider. When DoN came out, it raised that bar even further, again
bringing non raiders the ability to equip comparably to non end game
raiders.

So, exactly which single group content is it that nonraiders are locked
out of playing in? Or do you mean that they are locked out until the get
around to gearing up on readily available single group content, that
might require them to spend an amount of time similar to what raiders
have to spend in gearing up?

Seriously, I do want to know what single group content is unavaible to
someone who does not raid?

PoP is the one expansion I can think of where there was signficant single
group content that required raiding to gain access to. Not because it
necessarilly requires raid available only equipment, but because it
requires raids for the flags.

Other than PoP, how much single group content is there out there that
requires raiding to actually be able to access or play effectively in?

--
On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons

On Steamfont
Graeme, 36 Dwarven Mystic, 24 Sage, Treasure Hunter <Tempest>
Aviv, 15 Gnome Brawler, 30 Provisioner
Anonymous
July 7, 2005 7:35:42 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Faned wrote:
> <mshea01@gmail.com> wrote:
>>No doubt the difficulty in acquiring these items is vastly different.
>
>
> No doubt. One requires raiding. And not just raiding, but a coordinated
> progression of 50+ people through at least a couple complete iterations of
> full sets of equipment. You can't take 50 people in bazaar bought gear and
> take out the hardest mob in the game. You could take them to Time and spend
> a month or three gearing up, and then have a *slight* chance. Of course the
> more logical thing to do is to then start gearing up through GoD raid
> encounters for your third iteration of equipment, and then work your way up
> through OoW raid encounters for your fourth iteration in equipment,
> culminating in actually being able to acquire that piece you posted for a
> single player, with the promise to go back and do the fight until everyone
> that wants that item has acquired it, a fight that can be lost if any single
> one of those 50 people gets disconnected, distracted, or simply doesn't
> respond to the event fast enough.
>
> I can 3-box the other item.

Can you 3-box the other item with untwinked characters who aren't
wearing a single piece of raid gear?

And you neglect to mention that non-raiders also go through many sets
of gear and many trials and tribulations. Here's a thought, why don't
you go to veksar, gear up a tank with that stuff, then try some hard
LDoN's? Or try tanking a DoN with 50k worth of bazaar gear!

Everyone in the game goes through a procession of gear sets Faned, it's
just that the non-raiders go through sets of *pathetic* gear, whereas
raiders go through sets of *awesome* gear. What Loral is arguing is that
non-raiders should go through sets of *decent* gear, whereas raiders go
through sets of *Awesome* gear.

>>Obviously, these items don't compare in either power or in the
>>difficulty to receive it. However, there are some areas where these
>>items must be compared.
>
> No, really, there aren't. There are some areas where you would *like* them
> to be compared in irrational and downright silly ways, but the fact of the
> matter is I can 3-box one of the items over the course of a few days and the
> other takes a year of solid raiding for 50+ people, at *least*, to acquire.

This comes back to the hoary old argument that raid time should be
worth more than group time, and that not only should it be worth more,
it should be worth 3x more!

You make it sound like 50 people work for a year on one upgrade for one
guy :p  Most 3raids/week raiders I know seem to get 1-2 upgrades a month
depending on how uber their gear already is.

>>It is not unreasonable to expect that the absolute best single-group
>>equipment available should meet 75% of the absolute best raid-level
>>equipment. If a cleric breastplate from Overlord Mata Muram includes a
>>50% healing focus and 355 mana, a breastplate from the hardest
>>single-group encounter might offer 250 mana and a 35% healing focus.
>
>
> And to actually be fair, that single-group encounter must require the group
> to spend a year acquiring the other single-group equipment that will allow
> them to have a chance to beat it, do multiple lengthy quests and loot-less,
> time-consuming, death count inducing single-group encounters to get the
> proper flags to be able to even touch that single-group encounter.

Hey a lot of single group content falls into that category. God the
amount of time and effort people in my guild blew getting into KT was
phenomenal. Try THAT with LDoN gear!

>>However, it is clear that Everquest becomes very gear dependent at the
>>highest levels of the game. It has been this way for the last four or
>>five years and I see few ways to fix this problem without radically
>>changing the game. As it has been since the days of the Ring War, the
>>topic of equipment power will always continue to be a hot one.
>
>
> Until people wise up and realize that it isn't a "problem" and doesn't need
> "fixed". Too bad people would rather whine out of their sense of
> entitlement than actually think things through.

It's funny how people who are benefiting from a system rarely speak out
against it. Or is that funny? hmm...

cheers,
Kul
Anonymous
July 7, 2005 12:18:24 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

<james@doesntlikespam.org> wrote:
> Faned wrote:
> > <mshea01@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>No doubt the difficulty in acquiring these items is vastly different.
> >
> >
> > No doubt. One requires raiding. And not just raiding, but a coordinated
> > progression of 50+ people through at least a couple complete iterations of
> > full sets of equipment. You can't take 50 people in bazaar bought gear and
> > take out the hardest mob in the game. You could take them to Time and spend
> > a month or three gearing up, and then have a *slight* chance. Of course the
> > more logical thing to do is to then start gearing up through GoD raid
> > encounters for your third iteration of equipment, and then work your way up
> > through OoW raid encounters for your fourth iteration in equipment,
> > culminating in actually being able to acquire that piece you posted for a
> > single player, with the promise to go back and do the fight until everyone
> > that wants that item has acquired it, a fight that can be lost if any single
> > one of those 50 people gets disconnected, distracted, or simply doesn't
> > respond to the event fast enough.
> >
> > I can 3-box the other item.
>
> Can you 3-box the other item with untwinked characters who aren't
> wearing a single piece of raid gear?

I can't, because I don't have characters that match those criteria. =)
There are plenty of comments on the monk class boards about non-raiders
3-boxing DoN missions. It's irrelevant, because the actual implication was
that if I could 3-box something, a much lesser geared full group could
handle it.

> And you neglect to mention that non-raiders also go through many sets
> of gear and many trials and tribulations. Here's a thought, why don't
> you go to veksar, gear up a tank with that stuff, then try some hard
> LDoN's? Or try tanking a DoN with 50k worth of bazaar gear!

Try tanking a DoN with 500k worth of bazaar gear and I might be willing to
discuss it. I've dropped more than 50k on a single item for a level 10
twink. =P


> Everyone in the game goes through a procession of gear sets Faned, it's
> just that the non-raiders go through sets of *pathetic* gear, whereas
> raiders go through sets of *awesome* gear. What Loral is arguing is that
> non-raiders should go through sets of *decent* gear, whereas raiders go
> through sets of *Awesome* gear.

Another discussion on the monk class boards that mirrored this one saw me
post a made up magelo of entirely single-group obtainable gear that would
put a non-raiding monk within a couple hundred hp of me, a "high end"
raider.

In that discussion I also mentioned that if you expected to equip in bazaar
gear and then jump straight to my hypothetical setup you were going to be in
for some pain.

> >>Obviously, these items don't compare in either power or in the
> >>difficulty to receive it. However, there are some areas where these
> >>items must be compared.
> >
> > No, really, there aren't. There are some areas where you would *like* them
> > to be compared in irrational and downright silly ways, but the fact of the
> > matter is I can 3-box one of the items over the course of a few days and the
> > other takes a year of solid raiding for 50+ people, at *least*, to acquire.
>
> This comes back to the hoary old argument that raid time should be
> worth more than group time, and that not only should it be worth more,
> it should be worth 3x more!

See, "a non-raiding monk within a couple hundred hp of me".

I have far more than 1k hp...

It wasn't terribly uncommon for me to have twice the hp of a non-raider a
couple years back. It isn't terribly uncommon for a non-raider to have
within 3/4 or better of my hp these days, and I'm much farther ahead of the
curve than I was back then to boot. The gap has *narrowed*.

> You make it sound like 50 people work for a year on one upgrade for one
> guy :p  Most 3raids/week raiders I know seem to get 1-2 upgrades a month
> depending on how uber their gear already is.

I make it sound like 50 people work for a year on *that* one upgrade for one
guy, all acquiring their own upgrades along the way.

With that comment, you make it sound like you've sprained your hyperbole.

> >>It is not unreasonable to expect that the absolute best single-group
> >>equipment available should meet 75% of the absolute best raid-level
> >>equipment. If a cleric breastplate from Overlord Mata Muram includes a
> >>50% healing focus and 355 mana, a breastplate from the hardest
> >>single-group encounter might offer 250 mana and a 35% healing focus.
> >
> >
> > And to actually be fair, that single-group encounter must require the group
> > to spend a year acquiring the other single-group equipment that will allow
> > them to have a chance to beat it, do multiple lengthy quests and loot-less,
> > time-consuming, death count inducing single-group encounters to get the
> > proper flags to be able to even touch that single-group encounter.
>
> Hey a lot of single group content falls into that category. God the
> amount of time and effort people in my guild blew getting into KT was
> phenomenal. Try THAT with LDoN gear!

No, it doesn't. Take the "time and effort" you put into getting into KT and
compare it with the time and effort it takes your guild to move into the
Ikkinz raids, Uqua, Inktuta, Qvic and Txevu. The trip to KT seems hard, it
did to me, but trust me when I tell you that you ain't seen nothing yet.
(Actually one of my pet peeves about GoD is how needlessly complex the
progression is, even though I find the actual raid encounters, once you
actually get access to them, very entertaining).

> >>However, it is clear that Everquest becomes very gear dependent at the
> >>highest levels of the game. It has been this way for the last four or
> >>five years and I see few ways to fix this problem without radically
> >>changing the game. As it has been since the days of the Ring War, the
> >>topic of equipment power will always continue to be a hot one.
> >
> >
> > Until people wise up and realize that it isn't a "problem" and doesn't need
> > "fixed". Too bad people would rather whine out of their sense of
> > entitlement than actually think things through.
>
> It's funny how people who are benefiting from a system rarely speak out
> against it. Or is that funny? hmm...

It's even funnier how people who *choose* not to benefit from a system that
they could benefit from if they were willing to *try* will "speak out" to
try to get the effort required reduced. =)
Anonymous
July 7, 2005 3:28:54 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Graeme Faelban <RichardRapier@netscape.net> wrote in
news:Xns968C59830597Brichardrapiernetscap@130.133.1.4:

> The problem here is not gear availability, it's player attitude.

This has been the case for about as long as I can remember.

"We can't do that without a 'chanter"
"I have to have KEI"
"Can't do that without a cleric"
"Can't do that withoug a plate tank"

Are all things I used to hear - then my friends
and I would go ahead and do it anyway.

--
Arch Convoker Mairelon Snapbang
Feral Lord Bosra Snowclaw
Lanys T'vyl (Retired)

Mairelon, 36th Paladin
Silverhand
July 7, 2005 6:13:43 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Faned wrote:
> I'd say the majority of players are raiders of some sort, all with something
> to look forward to and strive for, regardless of how long their individual
> playstyles may make them take to get there. There doesn't seem to be a
> large percentage of people that *never* raid, though I'm sure there are
> some.

Yo.

Full_time_job + kid = playing off-peak hours maybe every other week, if
I'm lucky. I have trouble enough getting groups, raids have been right
out. :)  Never been on one.
--
Xiphos - How do bread-winner parents do it without neglecting their
kids?
Anonymous
July 7, 2005 6:51:29 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

James Hicks <james@doesntlikespam.org> wrote in
news:NO6ze.17209$oJ.14729@news-server.bigpond.net.au:

> 42 wrote:
>> We just need more 1-group content that behaves like modern raid
>> content, demanding a little more from everyone present than that they
>> just be present. Of course, this will doom the weaker players and
>> worse everyone who groups with them...
>
> Having finally seen fantastic encounters like Rathe Council,
> Coirnav
> and Time trials, I couldn't agree more. Why the hell didn't even 8% of
> that coding and design effort go into single-group stuff (where most
> of EQ's players & payers reside)?
>

That I can agree with. Most of the single group stuff is essentially the
same thing over and over again.

--
On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons

On Steamfont
Graeme, 36 Dwarven Mystic, 24 Sage, Treasure Hunter <Tempest>
Aviv, 15 Gnome Brawler, 30 Provisioner
Anonymous
July 7, 2005 7:43:03 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Faned" <faned@wyld.qx.net> wrote in message
news:slrndcr28h.76m.faned@wyld.qx.net...
> <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
<snip>
>
> I'm a nice guy. If I turn on LFG, I'll generally take any group that's
> offered. Hell, I get a kick out of the trainwreck of a truly bad group.
>

I was in a pick-up group in PC with an alt when someone trained C2 with a
train of magnificent proportions. I'm really not sure that they missed a mob
in the entire cavern. They certainly had at least a few of every type.

My groupmates did not think that it was at all appropriate for me to
congratulate the offender for having the largest train that I had seen since
the good ol' days in Blackburrow. lol

The way those clowns were crying you would have thought that they lost half
of lev 69 to the death.

Mike W.
July 7, 2005 7:44:43 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Mike W. wrote:
> "Xiphos" <xiphos@rahul.net> wrote in message
> news:1120770823.557651.303030@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > Yo.
> >
> > Full_time_job + kid = playing off-peak hours maybe every other week, if
> > I'm lucky. I have trouble enough getting groups, raids have been right
> > out. :)  Never been on one.
> > --
> > Xiphos - How do bread-winner parents do it without neglecting their
> > kids?
> >
>
> My brother got his kids their own account. lol
>
> Mike W. OF

My kid hits 6 months old next week.

I think she might be a wee bit young to be playing yet :) 
--
Xiphos
Anonymous
July 7, 2005 7:50:08 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Xiphos" <xiphos@rahul.net> wrote in message
news:1120770823.557651.303030@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Faned wrote:
>> I'd say the majority of players are raiders of some sort, all with
>> something
>> to look forward to and strive for, regardless of how long their
>> individual
>> playstyles may make them take to get there. There doesn't seem to be a
>> large percentage of people that *never* raid, though I'm sure there are
>> some.
>
> Yo.
>
> Full_time_job + kid = playing off-peak hours maybe every other week, if
> I'm lucky. I have trouble enough getting groups, raids have been right
> out. :)  Never been on one.
> --
> Xiphos - How do bread-winner parents do it without neglecting their
> kids?
>

My brother got his kids their own account. lol

Mike W. OF
July 7, 2005 8:02:03 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

42 wrote:
> In article <Xns968C9DD723B6Brichardrapiernetscap@130.133.1.4>,
> RichardRapier@netscape.net says...
> > "Xiphos" <xiphos@rahul.net> wrote in
> > news:1120770823.557651.303030@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> > > Yo.
> > >
> > > Full_time_job + kid = playing off-peak hours maybe every other week,
> > > if I'm lucky. I have trouble enough getting groups, raids have been
> > > right out. :)  Never been on one.
> > >
> >
> > Well, then you should expect that it will take you longer to be able to hit
> > high end zones...
>
> That's an unrealistically optimistic take. In the real world he should
> expect not to make any raid progression at all.
>
> Your suggesting he should be content to play by himself in old content?
> Perhaps hoping against hope to regularly bump into raid size forces of
> fellow bi-weekly offpeakers on their way to <older high end zone>? And
> that he will progress in this way, albeit slower, but at a rate
> proportial to the amount he plays?
>
> It doesn't work like that.

Yep. I'll probably never get PoP flagged, see the interiors of OoW, or
very far into the GoD continent. Precisely for this reason, I cannot
justify purchasing DoN nor the upcomming DoD or whatever it is. That's
three expansions, possibly four, the bulk of which we'll never get to
experience. Why should I shell out for two more we can ever only skirt
around the edges of?

On the other hand, I don't want to feel like I'm being given handouts
by the SOE team because I can't spend every waking moment not in class
or at work playing. These people who play a hell of a lot, the
ammounts I wish I could play, really what other reward in life are they
gonna get?

I'm just saying, that's why I don't complain about it too much. I was
just piping up that there is a demoraphic in EQ who have
responsibilities that may prevent us from ever seeing raid content, is
all.
--
Xiphos - I mean, we all have our priorities and goals
July 7, 2005 9:15:53 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

42 wrote:
> Its a big demographic. You because you don't play much. Others because
> they play lots but very off peak, still others playing as often as 5
> times a week during peak may not be 'raid-eligible' due to the fact that
> they have to leave within moments of the baby waking up... who won't
> (and shouldn't) leave it screaming hungry in its filthy diaper for an
> hour or two until the raid winds down...

That imagery made me sad. I want to go feed and bathe my kid now.
--
Xiphos - no, really, how do other parents manage without doing the
above?
Anonymous
July 7, 2005 9:48:10 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

I'm with you, Xiphos. I generally play only late at night, after the
little one has gone to bed. Being on Pacific time, this pushes me away
from most other people's schedules. I have attended one raid - a Hedge
run with my guild that happened while my better half was out of town
for a weekend with the munchkin. Oh, and there was this other time
that my previous guild tried to take down AoW for a lark (late at
night, with whoever was on) and wiped. :)  I don't see me getting any
flags any time soon. But like you, I'm good with that. I'd rather
have my family's affection than a Breastplate of Uberness. :) 
Anonymous
July 8, 2005 1:29:35 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

42 <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in
news:MPG.1d3732a565d5838e989bc7@shawnews.vf.shawcable.net:

> In article <slrndcr1mm.76m.faned@wyld.qx.net>, faned@wyld.qx.net
> says...
>> Yeah, the "hardcore" raiders may
>> scoff a bit, but that's to be expected. If you play golf and work
>> your score down from 110 to 95, there's still gonna be a golf pro
>> snickering at you. =) The trick is, of course, to ignore that and
>> enjoy your own accomplishment standing on its own.
>
> True, but it breaks down when the golf courses tell you you can't solo
> there, and the other 3-somes refuse to group with you because you
> aren't good enough. Enjoy that.
>
> He pays his green fees, he's part of the club... he has every right to
> feel entitled to do more than dip a toe in the expansions they nag him
> to buy every time he logs in. I'm not saying we should give him uber-
> raid-gear... but these players do need to be included more. They are
> entitled to THAT. Dumping them into a single instanced zone in the new
> expansion or telling them there is all this old empty obsolete content
> they can go play by themselves in just doesn't it.
>

RSS is not intended for soloing. If you want to solo, you have to find
areas that have solo content. Much like you can't expect to single group
high end raid encounters. (well, unless they are a few expansions old,
then you might even be soloing them...)

As for grouping, the issue is not about the gear per se, it's about
knowing what you can likely expect from a player. If you want to get a
serious xp group going, do you grab joe blow whom you don't know at all,
or do you grab someone you know, or who belongs to a high end guild where
a certain level of competency can be expected? Personally, I first check
if anyone in my guild, or on my friends list wants to go, then I go to
the lfg tool. I will agree that a certain level of gear/spells is pretty
much required, particularly for the tank, and crowd control in RSS. Off
hand, I am not sure what level enchanters get their best mez at, 69 or 70
I expect, which will require spending lots of time in MPG or a few select
spots in other OOW zones to get. Tanks have DoN in addition to other
zones to gear up in.

The game is all about progression, always has been. In order to hit the
higher end zones, you have to first do your time in lower end zones.
There is also certainly an issue for people who, for whatever reason,
have not been able to develop a group of people to play with regularly,
whether in a guild, or just informal group of friends. That is not a
gear issue as such either, it's just that other folks prefer to play with
people they do know when they can.

--
On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons

On Steamfont
Graeme, 36 Dwarven Mystic, 24 Sage, Treasure Hunter <Tempest>
Aviv, 15 Gnome Brawler, 30 Provisioner
Anonymous
July 8, 2005 1:30:59 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Xiphos" <xiphos@rahul.net> wrote in
news:1120770823.557651.303030@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> Faned wrote:
>> I'd say the majority of players are raiders of some sort, all with
>> something to look forward to and strive for, regardless of how long
>> their individual playstyles may make them take to get there. There
>> doesn't seem to be a large percentage of people that *never* raid,
>> though I'm sure there are some.
>
> Yo.
>
> Full_time_job + kid = playing off-peak hours maybe every other week,
> if I'm lucky. I have trouble enough getting groups, raids have been
> right out. :)  Never been on one.
>

Well, then you should expect that it will take you longer to be able to hit
high end zones...

--
On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons

On Steamfont
Graeme, 36 Dwarven Mystic, 24 Sage, Treasure Hunter <Tempest>
Aviv, 15 Gnome Brawler, 30 Provisioner
July 8, 2005 1:51:55 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

In article <Xns968C9D9A71EBArichardrapiernetscap@130.133.1.4>,
RichardRapier@netscape.net says...
> 42 <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in
> news:MPG.1d3732a565d5838e989bc7@shawnews.vf.shawcable.net:
>
> > In article <slrndcr1mm.76m.faned@wyld.qx.net>, faned@wyld.qx.net
> > says...
> >> Yeah, the "hardcore" raiders may
> >> scoff a bit, but that's to be expected. If you play golf and work
> >> your score down from 110 to 95, there's still gonna be a golf pro
> >> snickering at you. =) The trick is, of course, to ignore that and
> >> enjoy your own accomplishment standing on its own.
> >
> > True, but it breaks down when the golf courses tell you you can't solo
> > there, and the other 3-somes refuse to group with you because you
> > aren't good enough. Enjoy that.
> >
> > He pays his green fees, he's part of the club... he has every right to
> > feel entitled to do more than dip a toe in the expansions they nag him
> > to buy every time he logs in. I'm not saying we should give him uber-
> > raid-gear... but these players do need to be included more. They are
> > entitled to THAT. Dumping them into a single instanced zone in the new
> > expansion or telling them there is all this old empty obsolete content
> > they can go play by themselves in just doesn't it.
> >
>
> RSS is not intended for soloing. If you want to solo, you have to find
> areas that have solo content.

That was the point. Many busy golf courses won't let you solo either!
They'll pair you up with other 'soloers' pairs or fill out a threesome.

Of course that wouldn't do you much good if every group you were
assigned to refused to golf with you. Which is when the system breaks
down.

> As for grouping, the issue is not about the gear per se, it's about
> knowing what you can likely expect from a player. If you want to get a
> serious xp group going,

I think the "If" in that last phrase is misplaced. I've yet to meet
anyone ever who ever wanted something else.



> I will agree that a certain level of gear/spells is pretty
> much required, particularly for the tank, and crowd control in RSS.

And the issue is that that gear level is being described as beyond what
tanks can get in 1-groupable content. (Or at least more than that is
demanded of them, even though it can be done with less)

> Off
> hand, I am not sure what level enchanters get their best mez at, 69 or 70
> I expect, which will require spending lots of time in MPG or a few select
> spots in other OOW zones to get.

Which is another sore point. The enchanter can't solo there, and nobody
wants to group with them there.

> Tanks have DoN in addition to other
> zones to gear up in.

DoN isn't enough. It might be numerically enough to beat the mechanics
of RSS but it isn't enough to jump the hurdle of getting accepted into a
group in the first place. At least that seems to be a reasonable
estimate of the consensus.

> The game is all about progression, always has been. In order to hit the
> higher end zones, you have to first do your time in lower end zones.
> There is also certainly an issue for people who, for whatever reason,
> have not been able to develop a group of people to play with regularly,
> whether in a guild, or just informal group of friends. That is not a
> gear issue as such either, it's just that other folks prefer to play with
> people they do know when they can.

Except that we all know if you've got the gear that will overcome your
social deficiencies.

I hear what your saying and agree. The issue isn't gear-gap per se, its
a social problem. But I'm not seeing solutions or even partial solutions
to that problem other than the (bad idea) of totally eliminating the
gear gap.

(Although I'm still all for raid gear that scales up but just on raids)
July 8, 2005 2:15:05 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

In article <Xns968C9DD723B6Brichardrapiernetscap@130.133.1.4>,
RichardRapier@netscape.net says...
> "Xiphos" <xiphos@rahul.net> wrote in
> news:1120770823.557651.303030@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
> > Faned wrote:
> >> I'd say the majority of players are raiders of some sort, all with
> >> something to look forward to and strive for, regardless of how long
> >> their individual playstyles may make them take to get there. There
> >> doesn't seem to be a large percentage of people that *never* raid,
> >> though I'm sure there are some.
> >
> > Yo.
> >
> > Full_time_job + kid = playing off-peak hours maybe every other week,
> > if I'm lucky. I have trouble enough getting groups, raids have been
> > right out. :)  Never been on one.
> >
>
> Well, then you should expect that it will take you longer to be able to hit
> high end zones...

That's an unrealistically optimistic take. In the real world he should
expect not to make any raid progression at all.

Your suggesting he should be content to play by himself in old content?
Perhaps hoping against hope to regularly bump into raid size forces of
fellow bi-weekly offpeakers on their way to <older high end zone>? And
that he will progress in this way, albeit slower, but at a rate
proportial to the amount he plays?

It doesn't work like that.
July 8, 2005 3:31:55 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

In article <1120776283.007625.153830@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
xiphos@rahul.net says...
> Mike W. wrote:
> > "Xiphos" <xiphos@rahul.net> wrote in message
> > news:1120770823.557651.303030@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > > Yo.
> > >
> > > Full_time_job + kid = playing off-peak hours maybe every other week, if
> > > I'm lucky. I have trouble enough getting groups, raids have been right
> > > out. :)  Never been on one.
> > > --
> > > Xiphos - How do bread-winner parents do it without neglecting their
> > > kids?
> > >
> >
> > My brother got his kids their own account. lol
> >
> > Mike W. OF
>
> My kid hits 6 months old next week.
>
> I think she might be a wee bit young to be playing yet :) 

Nah. She should be able to handle a Druid by then.

/ducks
July 8, 2005 3:51:14 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

In article <1120777323.242986.3650@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
xiphos@rahul.net says...
> 42 wrote:
> > In article <Xns968C9DD723B6Brichardrapiernetscap@130.133.1.4>,
> > RichardRapier@netscape.net says...
> > > "Xiphos" <xiphos@rahul.net> wrote in
> > > news:1120770823.557651.303030@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> > > > Yo.
> > > >
> > > > Full_time_job + kid = playing off-peak hours maybe every other week,
> > > > if I'm lucky. I have trouble enough getting groups, raids have been
> > > > right out. :)  Never been on one.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Well, then you should expect that it will take you longer to be able to hit
> > > high end zones...
> >
> > That's an unrealistically optimistic take. In the real world he should
> > expect not to make any raid progression at all.
> >
> > Your suggesting he should be content to play by himself in old content?
> > Perhaps hoping against hope to regularly bump into raid size forces of
> > fellow bi-weekly offpeakers on their way to <older high end zone>? And
> > that he will progress in this way, albeit slower, but at a rate
> > proportial to the amount he plays?
> >
> > It doesn't work like that.
>
> Yep. I'll probably never get PoP flagged, see the interiors of OoW, or
> very far into the GoD continent. Precisely for this reason, I cannot
> justify purchasing DoN nor the upcomming DoD or whatever it is. That's
> three expansions, possibly four, the bulk of which we'll never get to
> experience. Why should I shell out for two more we can ever only skirt
> around the edges of?
>
> On the other hand, I don't want to feel like I'm being given handouts
> by the SOE team because I can't spend every waking moment not in class
> or at work playing.

Its in SOEs best interests to have you buy the expansion; they want your
money... so... if you feel like your getting handouts, gaurd your
wallet. :p 



> These people who play a hell of a lot, the
> ammounts I wish I could play, really what other reward in life are they
> gonna get?

hehehe

> I'm just saying, that's why I don't complain about it too much. I was
> just piping up that there is a demoraphic in EQ who have
> responsibilities that may prevent us from ever seeing raid content, is
> all.

Its a big demographic. You because you don't play much. Others because
they play lots but very off peak, still others playing as often as 5
times a week during peak may not be 'raid-eligible' due to the fact that
they have to leave within moments of the baby waking up... who won't
(and shouldn't) leave it screaming hungry in its filthy diaper for an
hour or two until the raid winds down... and then still others who
simply don't like 'being a cog in someone elses army' or 'having a 2nd
job' which is how many raid guilds can feel.

Lots of people don't raid at all. And even more people don't raid often.
Anonymous
July 8, 2005 7:30:13 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

42 <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in
news:MPG.1d37494faa708a2989bca@shawnews.vf.shawcable.net:

> In article <Xns968C9DD723B6Brichardrapiernetscap@130.133.1.4>,
> RichardRapier@netscape.net says...
>> "Xiphos" <xiphos@rahul.net> wrote in
>> news:1120770823.557651.303030@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>>
>> > Faned wrote:
>> >> I'd say the majority of players are raiders of some sort, all with
>> >> something to look forward to and strive for, regardless of how
>> >> long their individual playstyles may make them take to get there.
>> >> There doesn't seem to be a large percentage of people that *never*
>> >> raid, though I'm sure there are some.
>> >
>> > Yo.
>> >
>> > Full_time_job + kid = playing off-peak hours maybe every other
>> > week, if I'm lucky. I have trouble enough getting groups, raids
>> > have been right out. :)  Never been on one.
>> >
>>
>> Well, then you should expect that it will take you longer to be able
>> to hit high end zones...
>
> That's an unrealistically optimistic take. In the real world he should
> expect not to make any raid progression at all.
>
> Your suggesting he should be content to play by himself in old
> content? Perhaps hoping against hope to regularly bump into raid size
> forces of fellow bi-weekly offpeakers on their way to <older high end
> zone>? And that he will progress in this way, albeit slower, but at a
> rate proportial to the amount he plays?
>
> It doesn't work like that.
>

No, you misunderstood. I was suggesting that it will take him a lot
longer to get to high end single group content, via the slow rate of
progress from low game time.

--
On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons

On Steamfont
Graeme, 36 Dwarven Mystic, 24 Sage, Treasure Hunter <Tempest>
Aviv, 15 Gnome Brawler, 30 Provisioner
Anonymous
July 8, 2005 7:34:41 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Xiphos" <xiphos@rahul.net> wrote in
news:1120777323.242986.3650@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:

> 42 wrote:
>> In article <Xns968C9DD723B6Brichardrapiernetscap@130.133.1.4>,
>> RichardRapier@netscape.net says...
>> > "Xiphos" <xiphos@rahul.net> wrote in
>> > news:1120770823.557651.303030@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>> > > Yo.
>> > >
>> > > Full_time_job + kid = playing off-peak hours maybe every other
>> > > week, if I'm lucky. I have trouble enough getting groups, raids
>> > > have been right out. :)  Never been on one.
>> > >
>> >
>> > Well, then you should expect that it will take you longer to be
>> > able to hit high end zones...
>>
>> That's an unrealistically optimistic take. In the real world he
>> should expect not to make any raid progression at all.
>>
>> Your suggesting he should be content to play by himself in old
>> content? Perhaps hoping against hope to regularly bump into raid size
>> forces of fellow bi-weekly offpeakers on their way to <older high end
>> zone>? And that he will progress in this way, albeit slower, but at a
>> rate proportial to the amount he plays?
>>
>> It doesn't work like that.
>
> Yep. I'll probably never get PoP flagged, see the interiors of OoW,
> or very far into the GoD continent. Precisely for this reason, I
> cannot justify purchasing DoN nor the upcomming DoD or whatever it is.
> That's three expansions, possibly four, the bulk of which we'll never
> get to experience. Why should I shell out for two more we can ever
> only skirt around the edges of?
>
> On the other hand, I don't want to feel like I'm being given handouts
> by the SOE team because I can't spend every waking moment not in class
> or at work playing. These people who play a hell of a lot, the
> ammounts I wish I could play, really what other reward in life are
> they gonna get?
>
> I'm just saying, that's why I don't complain about it too much. I was
> just piping up that there is a demoraphic in EQ who have
> responsibilities that may prevent us from ever seeing raid content, is
> all.

I was not talking about raid content above. I was talking about high end
single group content.

As for OOW, there is one zone that requires flagging to get into. That
is it. The other OOW zones are either open to all, or are level based.
As a low play time player, you should expect that it will take you longer
to level and gain access to level based zones. You should also expect
that it will take longer to get gear upgrades. Much like if I raided
once a month, I will get a lot less frequent upgrades than I do from
raiding 3 times a week.

GoD will be difficult at best to get to KT and beyond for a low playtime
person. PoP, I think we all pretty much agree, including SoE, that it
was a mistake to make so many zones require flagging.

--
On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons

On Steamfont
Graeme, 36 Dwarven Mystic, 24 Sage, Treasure Hunter <Tempest>
Aviv, 15 Gnome Brawler, 30 Provisioner
Anonymous
July 8, 2005 7:37:13 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Mike W." <dropsterNOSPAM69@hotNOSPAMmail.com> wrote in
news:ZUhze.96$PZ.1583@news.uswest.net:

>
> "Faned" <faned@wyld.qx.net> wrote in message
> news:slrndcr28h.76m.faned@wyld.qx.net...
>> <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
> <snip>
>>
>> I'm a nice guy. If I turn on LFG, I'll generally take any group
>> that's offered. Hell, I get a kick out of the trainwreck of a truly
>> bad group.
>>
>
> I was in a pick-up group in PC with an alt when someone trained C2
> with a train of magnificent proportions. I'm really not sure that they
> missed a mob in the entire cavern. They certainly had at least a few
> of every type.
>
> My groupmates did not think that it was at all appropriate for me to
> congratulate the offender for having the largest train that I had seen
> since the good ol' days in Blackburrow. lol
>
> The way those clowns were crying you would have thought that they lost
> half of lev 69 to the death.
>

As opposed to losing about one or two mobs worth of xp...

I loved PC for zipping through the levels. I never worried about death,
it literally took one or two kills to regain the lost xp from an unrezzed
death in PC.

--
On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons

On Steamfont
Graeme, 36 Dwarven Mystic, 24 Sage, Treasure Hunter <Tempest>
Aviv, 15 Gnome Brawler, 30 Provisioner
Anonymous
July 8, 2005 7:42:22 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

James Hicks <james@doesntlikespam.org> wrote in
news:ZUqze.27497$oJ.12842@news-server.bigpond.net.au:

> Faned wrote:
>>
>> I'd say the majority of players are raiders of some sort, all with
>> something to look forward to and strive for, regardless of how long
>> their individual playstyles may make them take to get there. There
>> doesn't seem to be a large percentage of people that *never* raid,
>> though I'm sure there are some.
>
> I think you can say at this stage of the game that for what we're
> talking about here "raider" means someone who can get elemental drops
> at least. Not much point, for the purposes of this discussion, in
> classing someone as a 'raider' if they're stuck in Luclin getting sub
> DoN gear or DoNish gear.
>

Last I checked DoN gear was essentially equivalent to elemental gear.
Did they nerf it recently? Heck, I'm still wearing an LDoN bp because I
have not seen anything better drop that I can use yet, and I'm in a 3/4
of the way to time flagged guild that raids OOW targets regularly along
with working towards RC to finish off the time flag.

--
On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons

On Steamfont
Graeme, 36 Dwarven Mystic, 24 Sage, Treasure Hunter <Tempest>
Aviv, 15 Gnome Brawler, 30 Provisioner
Anonymous
July 8, 2005 8:13:37 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Graeme Faelban wrote:
> James Hicks <james@doesntlikespam.org> wrote in
> news:ZUqze.27497$oJ.12842@news-server.bigpond.net.au:
>
>
>>Faned wrote:
>>
>>>I'd say the majority of players are raiders of some sort, all with
>>>something to look forward to and strive for, regardless of how long
>>>their individual playstyles may make them take to get there. There
>>>doesn't seem to be a large percentage of people that *never* raid,
>>>though I'm sure there are some.
>>
>>
>> I think you can say at this stage of the game that for what we're
>>talking about here "raider" means someone who can get elemental drops
>>at least. Not much point, for the purposes of this discussion, in
>>classing someone as a 'raider' if they're stuck in Luclin getting sub
>>DoN gear or DoNish gear.
>>
>
>
> Last I checked DoN gear was essentially equivalent to elemental gear.
> Did they nerf it recently? Heck, I'm still wearing an LDoN bp because I
> have not seen anything better drop that I can use yet, and I'm in a 3/4
> of the way to time flagged guild that raids OOW targets regularly along
> with working towards RC to finish off the time flag.
>

DoN gear is still significantly behind elemental. (the SK stuff is anyway)

Good luck with RC :)  I was there the night my new guild finally cracked
them, and it was a hell of a moment.

Still wearing my LDoN Tak BP as well - although im considering it being
my next DoN upgrade so I can grind it back into my last two LDoN AC augs.

Cheers,
James
Anonymous
July 8, 2005 8:54:51 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

James Hicks <james@doesntlikespam.org> wrote:

: DoN gear is still significantly behind elemental. (the SK stuff is anyway)

There is like 2 types of DoN gear. The vendor stuff except for for the
augs is ok. The DoN Grandmaster Cultural stuff however is really really
good and augg'd up even better.

K
July 8, 2005 9:20:40 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

In article <slrndct6c4.76m.faned@wyld.qx.net>, faned@wyld.qx.net says...
> <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
> > Because after a 4 hour raid a DoN is a refreshing break... after 4 hours
> > of DoN's (folling a previous days 4 hours of DoNs, and the day before
> > that's 4 hours of DoNs...) yet another DoN is strangely unappealing. :) 
>
> You pretty much summed up why I, and many others I'm sure, raid. =)

And if I could raid more I would, but I can't. Its not going to happen.

> > Tanks are. (And occasionally some specific caster is 'expected' to have
> > some specific spell... e.g. a high enough level mez...)
>
> Tanks are of course the most gear dependent, but at the same time have the
> highest quality bazaar gear available. I reference my twink warrior I
> mentioned at the very start of this thread. Being so gear dependent, they
> do have to be willing to spend spend spend and camp camp camp to be decently
> equipped.

Only to be turned down for 1-groupable content after they've gone as far
as they can go without raiding, putting in more time than a hardcore
raider to get there. And that's the hypothetical -freak- 1-group
warriors.. the average one is much further behind.

> > > Another thing I stated in the aforementioned parallel discussion is you'd
> > > have to be an idiot to spend the time and effort to get the single-group
> > > magelo's worth of gear without seriously investigating the option of joining
> > > a raiding guild. That magelo represents grinding, grinding, grinding,
> > > camping, grinding, grinding, grinding, camping, grinding, camping, and
> > > grinding some more. At least for me, grinding gets old quick.
> >

> There are guilds that raid once a week, at off times, have no attendance
> requirements, work on a "NBG" rather than points system for loot, etc.
> Finding the one that fits a large set of "bad" requirements would probably
> be rather difficult, but just one "bad" requirement is dealt with easily.

If a guild raids once a week off peak with no attendance and you have an
erratic schedule the odds of you going on raids once a week is pretty
slim. Once a month, maybe. (And if its off peak with no attendance req,
raids get cancelled or downgraded due to attendance pretty frequently...
I can tell you that much from experience)

> > I think you failed to take into account that that below a certain
> > critical mass of 'regularly scheduled' play time it becomes impossible
> > to do any more than seize on pick up raids of opportunity, which are
> > often dismal failures and are rarely doing anything newer than teir 1/2
> > PoP. If you add off-peak to the list you can just forget about it.
>
> There are, hinted at above, guilds that operate in most all timezones.
> My server has a Hawaiian and an Australian timezone raiding guild. Both are
> Time+. I know of Asian and Euro guilds as well.
>
> Limited play time is irrelevant to the discussion. I don't even think it is
> debatable that time = effort = reward in this game (and most others). You
> cannot expect to be equipped like me if you play 1/2 as much.

And nobody does. But I expect to be better equipped relative to you than
I am. I might be 1/5th your gear despite playing 1/2 as much. That's
just wrong.

Power gain should be a diminishing return. That's why levels take longer
and longer as you gain them, why AAs aren't as good as 'levels' (most of
the time), etc. Its also why the best items are rare drops, while the
lesser items drop commonly. Surely we agree on this?

If I play half as much as you, I should have 4/5ths your equipment, if
someone plays TWICE as much you you should have 4/5ths THEIR equipment.

Beleive it or not this isn't whining about entitlement, its a reflection
of how diminishing returns for more effort *should* be working. And in
EQ it does work for some classes of player at some stages of the game,
but in many other cases its just out to lunch.

For example a peak-time raider has better gear by far than someone who
plays THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME but off-peak, doing 1-group content, and
catching the odd raid or pickup raid when they can.

In this case: time = effort = reward ISN'T WORKING!

> See above. I sympathize, in the same way that I sympathize with the
> under-funded, under-equipped racers that have to compete in F1 and Nascar
> against teams willing to throw millions of dollars towards winning a $50k
> purse. But this is an aspect of the game that can't be changed *enough* to
> ever allow you to achieve what an every day player can (notice "player" not
> "raider"). Those with very limited play time must be content to stay 3 to 4
> expansions behind the curve, taking advantage of the droppables and "easy"
> single-groupables from the newer expansions to make their progression
> through the earlier progressions faster so they don't fall behind any
> further. They can never catch up.

You know what, I mostly agree. When the issue is strictly limited
playtime, I do expect them to drag behind the curve, although I'd like
to see them get more out of each expansion than they do.

But again you're only considering LIMITED play time. You are NOT
considering adequate playtime, but restricted from raiding for whatever
reason (off-peak, erratic schedule, children...)

For my part, I play enough, more than some raiders I know. Just not at
the right times, or regularly.


> But they won't be "playing by themselves". Because surely there are many
> people with similar circumstances.


Quite right, they're all lined up at the trough of DoN instanced
missions because its the only place they can get groups, and the only
place they can get even remotely half decent gear.

But they aren't happy grinding it.

(And when they've finished grinding it, and try to hookup with where the
rest of the player base is they're still passed over... if they're tanks
at least, and then its time to roll an alt that isn't a tank to grind
some more DoNs or maybe get gimped through a pop flag raid or something
while you wait for the next newbie-zone in the next expansion... whee.)
Anonymous
July 8, 2005 9:20:41 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

<nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
> In article <slrndct6c4.76m.faned@wyld.qx.net>, faned@wyld.qx.net says...
> > <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
> > Tanks are of course the most gear dependent, but at the same time have the
> > highest quality bazaar gear available. I reference my twink warrior I
> > mentioned at the very start of this thread. Being so gear dependent, they
> > do have to be willing to spend spend spend and camp camp camp to be decently
> > equipped.
>
> Only to be turned down for 1-groupable content after they've gone as far
> as they can go without raiding, putting in more time than a hardcore
> raider to get there. And that's the hypothetical -freak- 1-group
> warriors.. the average one is much further behind.

That's a social issue. One that isn't within my control, yours, or even
Sony's.

> > Limited play time is irrelevant to the discussion. I don't even think it is
> > debatable that time = effort = reward in this game (and most others). You
> > cannot expect to be equipped like me if you play 1/2 as much.
>
> And nobody does. But I expect to be better equipped relative to you than
> I am. I might be 1/5th your gear despite playing 1/2 as much. That's
> just wrong.

I think any monk that plays half as much as me will easily have considerably
better than 1/2 of my stats.

Hell, if I take off all my equipment and stand naked, I'm just about exactly
1/5th of my gear...

> Power gain should be a diminishing return. That's why levels take longer
> and longer as you gain them, why AAs aren't as good as 'levels' (most of
> the time), etc. Its also why the best items are rare drops, while the
> lesser items drop commonly. Surely we agree on this?
>
> If I play half as much as you, I should have 4/5ths your equipment, if
> someone plays TWICE as much you you should have 4/5ths THEIR equipment.
>
> Beleive it or not this isn't whining about entitlement, its a reflection
> of how diminishing returns for more effort *should* be working. And in
> EQ it does work for some classes of player at some stages of the game,
> but in many other cases its just out to lunch.
>
> For example a peak-time raider has better gear by far than someone who
> plays THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME but off-peak, doing 1-group content, and
> catching the odd raid or pickup raid when they can.
>
> In this case: time = effort = reward ISN'T WORKING!

If they play the same amount of time, they have the option of finding a
guild that is active during their primetime. If they have other extenuating
circumstances, which are entirely understandable, there isn't a "solution"
to a problem that exists outside of the mechanics of the game.

I also think that your ideal of diminishing returns is a bit off. In fact,
there are diminishing returns in place on all stats *except* hp and mana
anyway. The Anguish geared warrior that upgrades from a 110 AC BP to a 130
AC BP, when his AC is already 2500, gets very little actual AC out of it due
to soft caps (making these numbers up as I go along... I don't pay
attention to warrior gear or average stats).
July 8, 2005 9:31:25 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

In article <Xns968D616F0294Brichardrapiernetscap@130.133.1.4>,
RichardRapier@netscape.net says...
> "Xiphos" <xiphos@rahul.net> wrote in
> news:1120777323.242986.3650@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
>
> > 42 wrote:
> >> In article <Xns968C9DD723B6Brichardrapiernetscap@130.133.1.4>,
> >> RichardRapier@netscape.net says...
> >> > "Xiphos" <xiphos@rahul.net> wrote in
> >> > news:1120770823.557651.303030@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> >> > > Yo.
> >> > >
> >> > > Full_time_job + kid = playing off-peak hours maybe every other
> >> > > week, if I'm lucky. I have trouble enough getting groups, raids
> >> > > have been right out. :)  Never been on one.
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > Well, then you should expect that it will take you longer to be
> >> > able to hit high end zones...
> >>
> >> That's an unrealistically optimistic take. In the real world he
> >> should expect not to make any raid progression at all.
> >>
> >> Your suggesting he should be content to play by himself in old
> >> content? Perhaps hoping against hope to regularly bump into raid size
> >> forces of fellow bi-weekly offpeakers on their way to <older high end
> >> zone>? And that he will progress in this way, albeit slower, but at a
> >> rate proportial to the amount he plays?
> >>
> >> It doesn't work like that.
> >
> > Yep. I'll probably never get PoP flagged, see the interiors of OoW,
> > or very far into the GoD continent. Precisely for this reason, I
> > cannot justify purchasing DoN nor the upcomming DoD or whatever it is.
> > That's three expansions, possibly four, the bulk of which we'll never
> > get to experience. Why should I shell out for two more we can ever
> > only skirt around the edges of?
> >
> > On the other hand, I don't want to feel like I'm being given handouts
> > by the SOE team because I can't spend every waking moment not in class
> > or at work playing. These people who play a hell of a lot, the
> > ammounts I wish I could play, really what other reward in life are
> > they gonna get?
> >
> > I'm just saying, that's why I don't complain about it too much. I was
> > just piping up that there is a demoraphic in EQ who have
> > responsibilities that may prevent us from ever seeing raid content, is
> > all.
>
> I was not talking about raid content above. I was talking about high end
> single group content.

Fair enough. As long as we agree that his raid progression is going to
be nil.

> As a low play time player, you should expect that it will take you longer
> to level and gain access to level based zones. You should also expect
> that it will take longer to get gear upgrades. Much like if I raided
> once a month, I will get a lot less frequent upgrades than I do from
> raiding 3 times a week.

It should take proportionately longer to get as well geared as you. It
should take considerably less time to get gear that's in shooting
distance of yours. (I say *should* because that's how it *should* work,
but there are issues with EQ that prevent it from being true in many
cases.)
Anonymous
July 9, 2005 12:20:22 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

James Hicks <james@doesntlikespam.org> wrote in
news:RCxze.27895$oJ.27598@news-server.bigpond.net.au:

> Graeme Faelban wrote:
> > James Hicks <james@doesntlikespam.org> wrote in
> > news:ZUqze.27497$oJ.12842@news-server.bigpond.net.au:
> >
> >
> >>Faned wrote:
> >>
> >>>I'd say the majority of players are raiders of some sort, all with
> >>>something to look forward to and strive for, regardless of how long
> >>>their individual playstyles may make them take to get there. There
> >>>doesn't seem to be a large percentage of people that *never* raid,
> >>>though I'm sure there are some.
> >>
> >>
> >> I think you can say at this stage of the game that for what
> >> we're
> >>talking about here "raider" means someone who can get elemental
> >>drops at least. Not much point, for the purposes of this discussion,
> >>in classing someone as a 'raider' if they're stuck in Luclin getting
> >>sub DoN gear or DoNish gear.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Last I checked DoN gear was essentially equivalent to elemental
> > gear. Did they nerf it recently? Heck, I'm still wearing an LDoN bp
> > because I have not seen anything better drop that I can use yet, and
> > I'm in a 3/4 of the way to time flagged guild that raids OOW targets
> > regularly along with working towards RC to finish off the time flag.
> >
>
> DoN gear is still significantly behind elemental. (the SK stuff is
> anyway)
>
> Good luck with RC :)  I was there the night my new guild finally
> cracked them, and it was a hell of a moment.
>
> Still wearing my LDoN Tak BP as well - although im considering it
> being my next DoN upgrade so I can grind it back into my last two LDoN
> AC augs.
>

Are you including the augmentability of the DoN gear vs the Elemental
gear?

--
On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons

On Steamfont
Graeme, 36 Dwarven Mystic, 24 Sage, Treasure Hunter <Tempest>
Aviv, 15 Gnome Brawler, 30 Provisioner
July 9, 2005 1:12:32 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

In article <slrndctkg5.76m.faned@wyld.qx.net>, faned@wyld.qx.net says...
> <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
> > In article <slrndct6c4.76m.faned@wyld.qx.net>, faned@wyld.qx.net says...
> > > <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
> > > Tanks are of course the most gear dependent, but at the same time have the
> > > highest quality bazaar gear available. I reference my twink warrior I
> > > mentioned at the very start of this thread. Being so gear dependent, they
> > > do have to be willing to spend spend spend and camp camp camp to be decently
> > > equipped.
> >
> > Only to be turned down for 1-groupable content after they've gone as far
> > as they can go without raiding, putting in more time than a hardcore
> > raider to get there. And that's the hypothetical -freak- 1-group
> > warriors.. the average one is much further behind.
>
> That's a social issue. One that isn't within my control, yours, or even
> Sony's.

Technically Sony could solve it by handing out uber gear to all players,
levelling the playing field. We agree this would be a bad idea if it
were done just like that. However there are some compromises, like raid
gear with +raid stats that could serve to level out the 1-group game
while still differentiating what a raider can do vs what a 1-grouper can
do.

> > > Limited play time is irrelevant to the discussion. I don't even think it is
> > > debatable that time = effort = reward in this game (and most others). You
> > > cannot expect to be equipped like me if you play 1/2 as much.
> >
> > And nobody does. But I expect to be better equipped relative to you than
> > I am. I might be 1/5th your gear despite playing 1/2 as much. That's
> > just wrong.
>
> I think any monk that plays half as much as me will easily have considerably
> better than 1/2 of my stats.

> Hell, if I take off all my equipment and stand naked, I'm just about exactly
> 1/5th of my gear...

By 1/5th your gear, I'd have thought it clear that I mean gear that is
1/5th as good as yours in terms of an abstract level appropriate sliding
scale. Not in terms of absolute stats.

Suppose you pulled a stupid and destroyed your breastplate, and then
spent the last year at level 65 playing 8 hours a day and ended up with
an AC 150BP, it should be obvious that another player who did the same
thing but only playing once a week is going to have better than an AC30
BP (1/5th your play time) at the end of it.

When comparing gear you have to set a reasonable baseline using marginal
gear. At 70th level you can trivially obtain a breastplate with AC50+ in
a few hours, probably you can do better. In otherwords, the most gimped
of all 70th level players with no time investment at all whatsoever,
should have at the very least an AC50 bp.

You need to look at the distance between the baseline and what you have,
not from naked to what you have, because NOBODY, not even the gimpiest
gimp plays naked. 4/5ths of the distance from a reasonable baseline to
your gear will be (And should be) more than simply 4/5ths your stats.

Further the weighting and relevancy of the stats should be incorporated.
HP (for a tank) should be weighted higher than int. Focus effects that
make healing spells 10% more efficient are worth far more than +100
mana.



> > Power gain should be a diminishing return. That's why levels take longer
> > and longer as you gain them, why AAs aren't as good as 'levels' (most of
> > the time), etc. Its also why the best items are rare drops, while the
> > lesser items drop commonly. Surely we agree on this?
> >
> > If I play half as much as you, I should have 4/5ths your equipment, if
> > someone plays TWICE as much you you should have 4/5ths THEIR equipment.
> >
> > Beleive it or not this isn't whining about entitlement, its a reflection
> > of how diminishing returns for more effort *should* be working. And in
> > EQ it does work for some classes of player at some stages of the game,
> > but in many other cases its just out to lunch.
> >
> > For example a peak-time raider has better gear by far than someone who
> > plays THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME but off-peak, doing 1-group content, and
> > catching the odd raid or pickup raid when they can.
> >
> > In this case: time = effort = reward ISN'T WORKING!
>
> If they play the same amount of time, they have the option of finding a
> guild that is active during their primetime. If they have other extenuating
> circumstances, which are entirely understandable, there isn't a "solution"
> to a problem that exists outside of the mechanics of the game.

I think claiming there is no solution is a weak substitute for actually
looking for one. I agree that its not a mechanics failure of the game,
but that doesn't mean its not a failure that can't be resolved or
compensated for.

EQ raiding is essentially a team sport like hockey. People who can't
show up regularly for games and practices can't play. EQ 1-group is more
like drop-in games. In hockey, you can 'handicap' the pro-players to
level the playing field for these games to make it fun for everyone.

Golf works the same way. In fact most sports that have situations that
mix pro and amateur players have found solutions to level the playing
field.

No reason EQ can't.

> I also think that your ideal of diminishing returns is a bit off. In fact,
> there are diminishing returns in place on all stats *except* hp and mana
> anyway. The Anguish geared warrior that upgrades from a 110 AC BP to a 130
> AC BP, when his AC is already 2500, gets very little actual AC out of it due
> to soft caps (making these numbers up as I go along... I don't pay
> attention to warrior gear or average stats).

Good point. Your right, I hadn't factored the soft caps in. That -does-
change the diminishing returns evaluation somewhat. As things like
deltaAC and so on get weighed downwards. Although the exemptions of
mana/hp, and nature of the procs/clickies/foci are still very important,
and are indeed key defining differences between much of the 'good gear'
from its '1-group counterpart'.
July 9, 2005 1:28:12 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

In article <slrndctjkj.76m.faned@wyld.qx.net>, faned@wyld.qx.net says...

> > Ikkinz... you have got to be joking. Ditto MPG single group trials.
> > Maybe once I've done my 60 DoNs, it might be theoretically possible to
> > tank in these places with two healers, but I've yet to meet a pickup
> > group willing to put up with a tank that needs two healers.
>
> As a *raid-geared* guild, in Time, we used two healers in the Ikkinz single
> group trials when we first started them. If you're not willing to do what
> it takes, you won't get it done.

Its worth pointing out that he said he has yet to meet a pickup group
willing to put up with ha tank that needs to healers.

In other words: HE is such a tank, and HE needs two healers, and HE *is*
willing to do what it takes. But OTHERS are not.

You had a raid guild with healers willing to step up to the task.

Pickup groups are less accomodating.

What would your guild had done if your guild healers had *refused* to
tandem heal in Ikkinz? Lol...I know, I know, its a rhetorical question
that would never happen its so absurd. :) 

Its par for the course in the pickup 1-group world though.



> > For this to be even faintly viable you're talking about two things:
> >
> > 1) Significantly more time investment than raiders put in, for worse gear
> > 2) A hardcore group of single-groupers who play regularly enough to
> > raid but for whatever reason don't.
>
> In response to #1, what authority do you speak from to claim "significantly
> more time investment than raiders"? Care to guess my /played time? If you
> got within 50 *days* I'd be impressed. If you can find someone who claims
> to be a "hardcore" non-raider who is within 50 days, I'd be amazed. I am,
> by far, not the most active player in the game.

/shrug I know bazaar mules with as much /played time as you. And
tradeskill freaks with as much /played time as you. (Ok... I admit I
have no idea what your /played is, but it doesn't really matter... you
get the drift.)

I know people who spend 2 hours each day stuck in downtime hell,
willing, ready and able to fight, but LFG, or trying to replace the
cleric that just logged on you, or explaining to some twit where that
PoD is in PoK so he can get to you...

You on the other hand log in, step up to the raid formation, raid a few
hours, and then wind down to 3-boxing a DoN or perhaps joining a
splinter group from the raid doing whatever. Or perhaps just log out.

Few non-raid guilds are that efficient. It can be like pulling teeth to
get guild groups together in most "family" guilds I've been through
(even if they are willing, you have to lead them by the nose), and a
root cannal to put a pick up group together outside of the DoN/LDoN
grinding trough du jour.

Time /played means -nothing- :) 
Anonymous
July 9, 2005 1:28:13 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

<nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
> In article <slrndctjkj.76m.faned@wyld.qx.net>, faned@wyld.qx.net says...
>
> > > Ikkinz... you have got to be joking. Ditto MPG single group trials.
> > > Maybe once I've done my 60 DoNs, it might be theoretically possible to
> > > tank in these places with two healers, but I've yet to meet a pickup
> > > group willing to put up with a tank that needs two healers.
> >
> > As a *raid-geared* guild, in Time, we used two healers in the Ikkinz single
> > group trials when we first started them. If you're not willing to do what
> > it takes, you won't get it done.
>
> Its worth pointing out that he said he has yet to meet a pickup group
> willing to put up with ha tank that needs to healers.
>
> In other words: HE is such a tank, and HE needs two healers, and HE *is*
> willing to do what it takes. But OTHERS are not.
>
> You had a raid guild with healers willing to step up to the task.
>
> Pickup groups are less accomodating.
>
> What would your guild had done if your guild healers had *refused* to
> tandem heal in Ikkinz? Lol...I know, I know, its a rhetorical question
> that would never happen its so absurd. :) 
>
> Its par for the course in the pickup 1-group world though.

Interestingly enough, and I, even and especially at the time, considered it
a poor reflection on my guild, both of the healers that were used in the
Ikkinz 1-group trials to allow us to access the raids were... 2-boxed. One
was my pocket cleric, another was a raid cleric that was in the process of
moving so had let others have access to her account to use as needed for
just such purposes.


> > > For this to be even faintly viable you're talking about two things:
> > >
> > > 1) Significantly more time investment than raiders put in, for worse gear
> > > 2) A hardcore group of single-groupers who play regularly enough to
> > > raid but for whatever reason don't.
> >
> > In response to #1, what authority do you speak from to claim "significantly
> > more time investment than raiders"? Care to guess my /played time? If you
> > got within 50 *days* I'd be impressed. If you can find someone who claims
> > to be a "hardcore" non-raider who is within 50 days, I'd be amazed. I am,
> > by far, not the most active player in the game.
>
> /shrug I know bazaar mules with as much /played time as you. And
> tradeskill freaks with as much /played time as you. (Ok... I admit I
> have no idea what your /played is, but it doesn't really matter... you
> get the drift.)
>
> I know people who spend 2 hours each day stuck in downtime hell,
> willing, ready and able to fight, but LFG, or trying to replace the
> cleric that just logged on you, or explaining to some twit where that
> PoD is in PoK so he can get to you...
>
> You on the other hand log in, step up to the raid formation, raid a few
> hours, and then wind down to 3-boxing a DoN or perhaps joining a
> splinter group from the raid doing whatever. Or perhaps just log out.
>
> Few non-raid guilds are that efficient. It can be like pulling teeth to
> get guild groups together in most "family" guilds I've been through
> (even if they are willing, you have to lead them by the nose), and a
> root cannal to put a pick up group together outside of the DoN/LDoN
> grinding trough du jour.
>
> Time /played means -nothing- :) 

Time /played means *everything* when it comes to equipment. Time /bazaar'ed
doesn't count, though I'm sure there must be some level 1 out there with
more /played time than me. =)

Efficiency is achievable by anyone. Referencing a side-discussion in this
thread, that is one of the reasons people will invite certain guild tags to
groups. Competency, and the efficiency that comes with competency, is
expected.
Anonymous
July 9, 2005 10:38:15 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Hippie Ramone wrote:
> James Hicks <james@doesntlikespam.org> wrote:
>
> : DoN gear is still significantly behind elemental. (the SK stuff is anyway)
>
> There is like 2 types of DoN gear. The vendor stuff except for for the
> augs is ok. The DoN Grandmaster Cultural stuff however is really really
> good and augg'd up even better.
>
> K

Currently the Cultural stuff is going for about 250k per piece on my
server.

Not something a one-grouper tank is going to be seen wearing much of.
Anonymous
July 9, 2005 11:14:35 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Faned wrote:
>>>>1. I don't know anything about playing with a monk, but as a plate tank
>>>>889 AC unbuffed would have me smashed flat in a few rounds regardless of
>>>>HP in MPG, let alone RSS. Were you planning to tank with this guy? If
>>>>not, what do you need all that HP for anyway?
>>>
>>>
>>>I did mention that it was an exercise in the highest possible single-group
>>>hp gear. Beyond that, though, read what you wrote there. "If not, what do
>>>you need all that HP for anyway?"
>>>
>>>Think on that a bit and you may realize that you actually agree with me.
>>
>> You have a peculiar argument style - which seems to be essentially
>>ignore whatever I say and claim I agree with you. I don't. I actually
>>think your model illustrates that the single-grouper capable of taking
>>on RSS is a myth better than anything I could do.
>
>
> I see people in RS without guild tags all the time. No, I don't bother to
> ask them their history. I also see people in RS with guild tags from guilds
> that have yet to get into Time, which means that a person can easily match
> their equipment level by gearing up with DoN and other single-group equipment.

tanks?

> But the fact of the matter is, you asked me what I needed hp for. If I
> don't need it, why would anyone else? Are we turning this into a
> warrior-specific discussion? If so, I will create a one-group 10k warrior
> magelo for you and put forth the exact same arguments. =P

And it will be as much a fiction as the last one. What would impress me
is if you found a genuine magelo profile of a 10k unbuffed warrior who
isn't wearing any raid gear.

>>>>2. Most of that gear DROPS in RSS. So essentially, you're proposing to
>>>>_somehow_ get groups with sub RSS gear in order to get RSS gear. Once
>>>>again, I don't know anything about playing a monk, so this could be
>>>>possible. It is impossible or at least highly improbable as a
>>>>shadowknight, unless you've got insane friends who'll try anything (as I
>>>>used to have, see: tanking hard ldon's with mostly veksar gear).
>>>
>>>
>>>Actually, I think 4 or 6 items, all augments, are what drop in Riftseekers.
>>>A large portion of that gear is DoN, KT, Ikkinz single group trials, PG
>>>single group trials, etc. And interestingly enough, *I* could use all the
>>>RS augments on that magelo, because I have none. I'm just not much of a
>>>grinder.
>>
>> KT is really only viable by single groupers two expansions after it
>>came out, with five extra levels and omens/DoN gear. I do recall people
>>at 65 with no raid gear having limited success there, but nobody who
>>could put up with the constant deaths long enough to get very far.
>
>
> So what you're saying is that it's viable now, with five extra levels and
> two more expansions worth of gear. Ok. And the problem is? Wanna hear my
> complaints from two years ago? They're mostly irrelevant now...

The complaint is that Sony brought out yet another expansion that had 3
zones for everyone and the rest really for raiders. Hell, most
non-raiders couldn't stay alive in Tipt or VXed long enough to find out
who good the exp was, and until Omens there was no progression available
to bridge that gap.

Your complaints from two years ago? You mean the raid-whines that all
got fixed? :p 

>> Ikkinz... you have got to be joking. Ditto MPG single group trials.
>>Maybe once I've done my 60 DoNs, it might be theoretically possible to
>>tank in these places with two healers, but I've yet to meet a pickup
>>group willing to put up with a tank that needs two healers.
>
>
> As a *raid-geared* guild, in Time, we used two healers in the Ikkinz single
> group trials when we first started them. If you're not willing to do what
> it takes, you won't get it done. And you won't be getting any sympathy from
> the raiders who go, wipe, figure out what they need to do/get to beat it,
> and go back and try try again.

Aye the same people who leave single-group content after one wipe.

>> For this to be even faintly viable you're talking about two things:
>>
>> 1) Significantly more time investment than raiders put in, for worse gear
>> 2) A hardcore group of single-groupers who play regularly enough to
>>raid but for whatever reason don't.
>
> In response to #1, what authority do you speak from to claim "significantly
> more time investment than raiders"? Care to guess my /played time? If you
> got within 50 *days* I'd be impressed. If you can find someone who claims
> to be a "hardcore" non-raider who is within 50 days, I'd be amazed. I am,
> by far, not the most active player in the game.

I'm not referring to the hardest of the hardest core. Those people
don't see me in this game, and I don't see them. OTOH I can find
numerous examples of people with half MY played time, in gear vastly
better than I've spent MY 100 days getting.

>> I used to be part of (2) (we were insanely hardcore but a bunch of
>>Australians on our own on a very American server, in a guild that could
>>field 30 people on a raid. We never got far past TT). But I've yet to
>>see such a group of insane single-groupers outside a raiding guild. Not
>>before and not since. If anyone on this newsgroup is part of or knows
>>such a group, that has serious and realistic expectations of taking on
>>Ikkinz and MPG trials, please speak up.
>
>
> My previous guild absorbed not one, but *two*, groups of people that fit
> that description. They do exist. And when they are discovered by raiding
> guilds they are often heavily recruited because of their obvious skills and
> determination.

And they're rare as hens' teeth yes? So looking for an joining one
isn't exactly a progression path.

>>>Another thing I stated in the aforementioned parallel discussion is you'd
>>>have to be an idiot to spend the time and effort to get the single-group
>>>magelo's worth of gear without seriously investigating the option of joining
>>>a raiding guild. That magelo represents grinding, grinding, grinding,
>>>camping, grinding, grinding, grinding, camping, grinding, camping, and
>>>grinding some more. At least for me, grinding gets old quick.
>>
>> Yeah... insane grinding. Like wipe wipe kill wipe wipe kill.
>
>
> If you're wiping that often, you've jumped beyond your "place" and need to
> go back and gear up some more.

I've accepted that rate of wipage in the past to obtain upgrades, but
this is not the point. What I was suggesting is that your magelo would
involve either such gaps or the kind of repitition or time investment
that would have even the uber-hardcore-elite raiders slitting their wrists.

> DoN-ish gear *is* elemental gear. Hell, it's better in many ways, comparing
> favorably to Time gear.

You mean the 250k/slot tradeskill stuff right? :p 
Anonymous
July 9, 2005 11:14:44 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Graeme Faelban wrote:
>>DoN gear is still significantly behind elemental. (the SK stuff is
>>anyway)
>>
>>Good luck with RC :)  I was there the night my new guild finally
>>cracked them, and it was a hell of a moment.
>>
>>Still wearing my LDoN Tak BP as well - although im considering it
>>being my next DoN upgrade so I can grind it back into my last two LDoN
>>AC augs.
>>
>
>
> Are you including the augmentability of the DoN gear vs the Elemental
> gear?

If you mean the storebought stuff yes, if you mean the crafted stuff,
I'm not including the crafted stuff.

Show me the single group tank with 2.5M pp to spend on his gear :p 

cheers,
James
Anonymous
July 9, 2005 4:58:06 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

<james@doesntlikespam.org> wrote:
> Faned wrote:
> >>>>1. I don't know anything about playing with a monk, but as a plate tank
> >>>>889 AC unbuffed would have me smashed flat in a few rounds regardless of
> >>>>HP in MPG, let alone RSS. Were you planning to tank with this guy? If
> >>>>not, what do you need all that HP for anyway?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>I did mention that it was an exercise in the highest possible single-group
> >>>hp gear. Beyond that, though, read what you wrote there. "If not, what do
> >>>you need all that HP for anyway?"
> >>>
> >>>Think on that a bit and you may realize that you actually agree with me.
> >>
> >> You have a peculiar argument style - which seems to be essentially
> >>ignore whatever I say and claim I agree with you. I don't. I actually
> >>think your model illustrates that the single-grouper capable of taking
> >>on RSS is a myth better than anything I could do.
> >
> >
> > I see people in RS without guild tags all the time. No, I don't bother to
> > ask them their history. I also see people in RS with guild tags from guilds
> > that have yet to get into Time, which means that a person can easily match
> > their equipment level by gearing up with DoN and other single-group equipment.
>
> tanks?

Yes, along with their comparably equipped guildmates. Hell, sometimes I've
wondered how they manage myself, but I give them credit for it all the same.
=)

> > But the fact of the matter is, you asked me what I needed hp for. If I
> > don't need it, why would anyone else? Are we turning this into a
> > warrior-specific discussion? If so, I will create a one-group 10k warrior
> > magelo for you and put forth the exact same arguments. =P
>
> And it will be as much a fiction as the last one. What would impress me
> is if you found a genuine magelo profile of a 10k unbuffed warrior who
> isn't wearing any raid gear.

Of course the reason that wouldn't happen is because if you have that much
time to spend in the game, you might as well raid and get the full enjoyment
out of it. =P

> >>>>2. Most of that gear DROPS in RSS. So essentially, you're proposing to
> >>>>_somehow_ get groups with sub RSS gear in order to get RSS gear. Once
> >>>>again, I don't know anything about playing a monk, so this could be
> >>>>possible. It is impossible or at least highly improbable as a
> >>>>shadowknight, unless you've got insane friends who'll try anything (as I
> >>>>used to have, see: tanking hard ldon's with mostly veksar gear).
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Actually, I think 4 or 6 items, all augments, are what drop in Riftseekers.
> >>>A large portion of that gear is DoN, KT, Ikkinz single group trials, PG
> >>>single group trials, etc. And interestingly enough, *I* could use all the
> >>>RS augments on that magelo, because I have none. I'm just not much of a
> >>>grinder.
> >>
> >> KT is really only viable by single groupers two expansions after it
> >>came out, with five extra levels and omens/DoN gear. I do recall people
> >>at 65 with no raid gear having limited success there, but nobody who
> >>could put up with the constant deaths long enough to get very far.
> >
> >
> > So what you're saying is that it's viable now, with five extra levels and
> > two more expansions worth of gear. Ok. And the problem is? Wanna hear my
> > complaints from two years ago? They're mostly irrelevant now...
>
> The complaint is that Sony brought out yet another expansion that had 3
> zones for everyone and the rest really for raiders. Hell, most
> non-raiders couldn't stay alive in Tipt or VXed long enough to find out
> who good the exp was, and until Omens there was no progression available
> to bridge that gap.

Abysmal Sea, Barindu, Ferubi, Natimbi, Qinimi, Riwwi, 4 sewers zones, Tipt,
Vxed, all accessible from the start.

KT, Ikkinz, Yxxta all available to single groupers.

Qvic, Inktuta, Txevu, and Tacvi are locked away.

Just because you only went to three zones doesn't mean that's all there
were. =)

> Your complaints from two years ago? You mean the raid-whines that all
> got fixed? :p 

Of course they were raid-whines. That's what I do. Monk mitigation was
high on my list. Ask any single-grouper monk what he thinks of that. =P

> >> Ikkinz... you have got to be joking. Ditto MPG single group trials.
> >>Maybe once I've done my 60 DoNs, it might be theoretically possible to
> >>tank in these places with two healers, but I've yet to meet a pickup
> >>group willing to put up with a tank that needs two healers.
> >
> >
> > As a *raid-geared* guild, in Time, we used two healers in the Ikkinz single
> > group trials when we first started them. If you're not willing to do what
> > it takes, you won't get it done. And you won't be getting any sympathy from
> > the raiders who go, wipe, figure out what they need to do/get to beat it,
> > and go back and try try again.
>
> Aye the same people who leave single-group content after one wipe.

To be fair, when talking about a guild *just* getting to the Ikkinz trials
at 65, it was more like half a dozen wipes. And that may be an
understatement.

Of course most of the people that begged out tried to beg in later when they
realized where all the earrings and rings were coming from. =) I've found
item links can inspire many people in a game that rewards goal oriented
play.

> >> For this to be even faintly viable you're talking about two things:
> >>
> >> 1) Significantly more time investment than raiders put in, for worse gear
> >> 2) A hardcore group of single-groupers who play regularly enough to
> >>raid but for whatever reason don't.
> >
> > In response to #1, what authority do you speak from to claim "significantly
> > more time investment than raiders"? Care to guess my /played time? If you
> > got within 50 *days* I'd be impressed. If you can find someone who claims
> > to be a "hardcore" non-raider who is within 50 days, I'd be amazed. I am,
> > by far, not the most active player in the game.
>
> I'm not referring to the hardest of the hardest core. Those people
> don't see me in this game, and I don't see them. OTOH I can find
> numerous examples of people with half MY played time, in gear vastly
> better than I've spent MY 100 days getting.

Hell, every active monk on my server is "younger" than me I think (dunno on
some of the Quellious natives). Some people have an easier and/or faster
path, some have harder.

> >> I used to be part of (2) (we were insanely hardcore but a bunch of
> >>Australians on our own on a very American server, in a guild that could
> >>field 30 people on a raid. We never got far past TT). But I've yet to
> >>see such a group of insane single-groupers outside a raiding guild. Not
> >>before and not since. If anyone on this newsgroup is part of or knows
> >>such a group, that has serious and realistic expectations of taking on
> >>Ikkinz and MPG trials, please speak up.
> >
> >
> > My previous guild absorbed not one, but *two*, groups of people that fit
> > that description. They do exist. And when they are discovered by raiding
> > guilds they are often heavily recruited because of their obvious skills and
> > determination.
>
> And they're rare as hens' teeth yes? So looking for an joining one
> isn't exactly a progression path.

The groups, yes. The individuals, probably not nearly so rare. The ability
to pull together a group (or a guild) is a fairly rare commodity itself.
There was a time when I considered it daunting. After being in guild
leadership for years and years I actually find it fun. =)

> >>>Another thing I stated in the aforementioned parallel discussion is you'd
> >>>have to be an idiot to spend the time and effort to get the single-group
> >>>magelo's worth of gear without seriously investigating the option of joining
> >>>a raiding guild. That magelo represents grinding, grinding, grinding,
> >>>camping, grinding, grinding, grinding, camping, grinding, camping, and
> >>>grinding some more. At least for me, grinding gets old quick.
> >>
> >> Yeah... insane grinding. Like wipe wipe kill wipe wipe kill.
> >
> >
> > If you're wiping that often, you've jumped beyond your "place" and need to
> > go back and gear up some more.
>
> I've accepted that rate of wipage in the past to obtain upgrades, but
> this is not the point. What I was suggesting is that your magelo would
> involve either such gaps or the kind of repitition or time investment
> that would have even the uber-hardcore-elite raiders slitting their wrists.
>
> > DoN-ish gear *is* elemental gear. Hell, it's better in many ways, comparing
> > favorably to Time gear.
>
> You mean the 250k/slot tradeskill stuff right? :p 

No, I mean the stuff I see on the vendors. For time investment, you will
have enough time to farm up 250k/slot for a couple of the weaker slots that
will leave you (or realize that you could look outside DoN for some slots).
July 10, 2005 1:36:47 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

How difficult would it be for Sony to just mass change all no-drop gear to
attunable? As it is now, EQ (both 1 and 2) is split into camps of the haves
and have nots. Either you can devote the time needed to progress and
upgrade your stuff, or you just go in circles. It's not a matter of having
the will to push forward, it's being able to work to support yourself, your
family, take care of chores around home and have some time left to log on.

I think most of the folks saying how easy it is to get to the highest end of
the game are high school and college students who have no responsiblity and
nothing but free time.
July 10, 2005 3:19:27 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

In article <PrXze.42741$J12.38728@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>,
greenmini@netzero.com says...
> How difficult would it be for Sony to just mass change all no-drop gear to
> attunable?

Not difficult at all. Although they may have to sift through no-drop
quest drops that happen to be gear to ensure nothing becomes droppable
that shouldn't be.

Its a terrible idea though.

> As it is now, EQ (both 1 and 2) is split into camps of the haves
> and have nots.

That's not necessarily a bad thing. Have nots include people who just
started, and so forth. I'd only want to ensure everyone *can* reach
'adequacy' in a 'reasonable' timeframe, doing diverse and 'interesting'
things. If I wanted everyone the same all the time I'd eliminate gear
and levels from the game and call it a coop first person strategy game.

> Either you can devote the time needed to progress and
> upgrade your stuff, or you just go in circles.

So unwind the circles so that *anyone* can move 'forward'. That's the
problem.

> It's not a matter of having
> the will to push forward, it's being able to work to support yourself, your
> family, take care of chores around home and have some time left to log on.

So you'll level slower. Nobody is inherently against that.

> I think most of the folks saying how easy it is to get to the highest end of
> the game are high school and college students who have no responsiblity and
> nothing but free time.

Or have played for the last 6 years and realize just how much easier its
gotten.

To address your attunable suggestion thought. Its a colossally bad idea.
Nobody wants to acquire all their gear forever in the bazaar. Why play
at all if all your going to do is farm plat so you can buy gear to allow
you to farm plat so you can buy gear...

Meanwhile someone else actually does all the interesting fun stuff,
hunting interesting and fun mobs, while the most effective use of YOUR
limited time will be to farm spiderlings or ice giants or geonids or
some other cash camp.

If you think doing LDoN / DoN over and over again for gear upgrades is
bad, imagine spending your life farming greens for cash, as your most
'effective' use of your limited time.

That'd be outright pathetic.
Anonymous
July 10, 2005 9:53:10 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Faned wrote:
> <james@doesntlikespam.org> wrote:
>>>I see people in RS without guild tags all the time. No, I don't bother to
>>>ask them their history. I also see people in RS with guild tags from guilds
>>>that have yet to get into Time, which means that a person can easily match
>>>their equipment level by gearing up with DoN and other single-group equipment.
>>
>>
>> tanks?
>
>
> Yes, along with their comparably equipped guildmates. Hell, sometimes I've
> wondered how they manage myself, but I give them credit for it all the same.
> =)

I suppose that would've eventually been me, wiping on half the named
until the right stuff dropped, if my old guild had stuck together. In
retrospect, I almost feel lucky they didn't.

>>>But the fact of the matter is, you asked me what I needed hp for. If I
>>>don't need it, why would anyone else? Are we turning this into a
>>>warrior-specific discussion? If so, I will create a one-group 10k warrior
>>>magelo for you and put forth the exact same arguments. =P
>>
>> And it will be as much a fiction as the last one. What would impress me
>>is if you found a genuine magelo profile of a 10k unbuffed warrior who
>>isn't wearing any raid gear.
>
>
> Of course the reason that wouldn't happen is because if you have that much
> time to spend in the game, you might as well raid and get the full enjoyment
> out of it. =P

You mean you might as well raid and spend less time getting better
upgrades :p 

>> The complaint is that Sony brought out yet another expansion that had 3
>>zones for everyone and the rest really for raiders. Hell, most
>>non-raiders couldn't stay alive in Tipt or VXed long enough to find out
>>who good the exp was, and until Omens there was no progression available
>>to bridge that gap.
>
> Abysmal Sea, Barindu, Ferubi, Natimbi, Qinimi, Riwwi, 4 sewers zones, Tipt,
> Vxed, all accessible from the start.

If we're talking 65's here, abysmal sea and most of Natimbi are greened
out. Tipt & Vxed were (believe me - or don't if you like) out of the
question for non-raider groups who weren't charm-cheating. The 4 sewers
zones, as far as I'm concerned, are the same zone :p 

(although you could almost say that most GoD zones seemed identical to
at least one other GoD zone. What boring expansion!)

So my exageration aside: yes slightly more than three zones, but the
overwhelming majority of the expansion's content locked to people either
not raiding or in raid gear, and although some excellent upgrades were
available to the charm-cheaters in VXed and Tipt, they weren't
sufficient to bridge the gap and allow progression.

Now you're going to tell me GoD doesn't matter, everyone knows it was a
mistake :p 

> KT, Ikkinz, Yxxta all available to single groupers.

Who had a lot of raid gear on. A tiny portion of LDoN geared single
groupers could get to KT by charm cheating Vxed & Tipt (and some of us
did), but Ikkinz & Yxxta... hahahaha yeah.

> Qvic, Inktuta, Txevu, and Tacvi are locked away.
>
> Just because you only went to three zones doesn't mean that's all there
> were. =)
>
>> Your complaints from two years ago? You mean the raid-whines that all
>>got fixed? :p 
>
> Of course they were raid-whines. That's what I do. Monk mitigation was
> high on my list. Ask any single-grouper monk what he thinks of that. =P

Thankfully, they don't seem to have over-fixed it - I'm not being
pipped out of groups by monks as I was in my 30's and 40's before the nerf.

>>>> Ikkinz... you have got to be joking. Ditto MPG single group trials.
>>>>Maybe once I've done my 60 DoNs, it might be theoretically possible to
>>>>tank in these places with two healers, but I've yet to meet a pickup
>>>>group willing to put up with a tank that needs two healers.
>>>
>>>
>>>As a *raid-geared* guild, in Time, we used two healers in the Ikkinz single
>>>group trials when we first started them. If you're not willing to do what
>>>it takes, you won't get it done. And you won't be getting any sympathy from
>>>the raiders who go, wipe, figure out what they need to do/get to beat it,
>>>and go back and try try again.
>>
>> Aye the same people who leave single-group content after one wipe.
>
>
> To be fair, when talking about a guild *just* getting to the Ikkinz trials
> at 65, it was more like half a dozen wipes. And that may be an
> understatement.

Oh I'm sure the same people will put up with 6 wipes in a row on raid
content, but put them in a group with lesser geared people, on content
they expect to do safely, and one wipe will have them packing their bags.

Had an example of this just the other day - excellent cleric from an
uberguild joined us for a (you guessed it!) creator or two. Wonderful
cleric, fast reactions, more HP and AC than me (as she helpfully pointed
out after I died while she was meleeing an add). Anyhow, to cut a long
story of uberguild arrogance short (I eventually sent her a polite tell
explaining that I and others with her had indeed done these before!), we
had one gater mob gate, and come back with a train that wiped us. Well,
most of us, I feigned at 4%. (my kingdom for an 0% SK rez). She left
immediately afterwards, claiming her guild was about to raid GoD.

Which, based on a /who 15 minutes later, I believe was a bit of a fib.

> Of course most of the people that begged out tried to beg in later when they
> realized where all the earrings and rings were coming from. =) I've found
> item links can inspire many people in a game that rewards goal oriented
> play.

And this is the issue. That raider cleric chick had less than half the
reason I did to stick with that mission and make it work. The DoN augs
might be a nice addition to her already-adequate gear, wheras the actual
plate pieces are my primary source of badly-needed upgrades right now.

>>>If you're wiping that often, you've jumped beyond your "place" and need to
>>>go back and gear up some more.
>>
>> I've accepted that rate of wipage in the past to obtain upgrades, but
>>this is not the point. What I was suggesting is that your magelo would
>>involve either such gaps or the kind of repitition or time investment
>>that would have even the uber-hardcore-elite raiders slitting their wrists.
>>
>>
>>>DoN-ish gear *is* elemental gear. Hell, it's better in many ways, comparing
>>>favorably to Time gear.
>>
>> You mean the 250k/slot tradeskill stuff right? :p 
>
>
> No, I mean the stuff I see on the vendors. For time investment, you will
> have enough time to farm up 250k/slot for a couple of the weaker slots that
> will leave you (or realize that you could look outside DoN for some slots).

Well, the vendor stuff is behind Elemental, and nowhere near time gear.
What are you talking about?

cheers,
James
Anonymous
July 11, 2005 8:04:34 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Faned wrote:
>> I suppose that would've eventually been me, wiping on half the named
>>until the right stuff dropped, if my old guild had stuck together. In
>>retrospect, I almost feel lucky they didn't.
>
>
> You have to want it to do it. More particularly, want it enough.

Well I'll get there a lot faster now I'm in a time guild.

>>>Of course the reason that wouldn't happen is because if you have that much
>>>time to spend in the game, you might as well raid and get the full enjoyment
>>>out of it. =P
>>
>> You mean you might as well raid and spend less time getting better
>>upgrades :p 
>
>
> What makes you think that one upgrade per month, which is far more than I've
> gotten for long stretches of time raiding, is "faster"? More interesting,
> without a doubt. More enjoyable, again no question. Faster? Doubt it.

I'll show you why I think that.

Bone-Forged Trinket
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO DROP
Slot: NECK
AC: 15
STA: +15 AGI: +15 HP: +75 MANA: +75
ENDUR: +75 SV FIRE: +18 SV COLD: +18
Haste: +36%
Recommended level of 58.
WT: 1.0 Size: MEDIUM
Class: WAR PAL RNG SHD MNK BRD ROG BST BER
Race: ALL
Slot 1, type 7: empty

Just upgraded to:

Necklace of Eternal Visions
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO DROP
Slot: NECK
AC: 45
DEX: +20 STA: +20 CHA: +25 WIS: +18
INT: +18 HP: +190 MANA: +180 ENDUR: +180
SV FIRE: +15 SV DISEASE: +15 SV COLD: +15 SV MAGIC: +15
SV POISON: +15
Shielding: +2%
Required level of 65.
Focus Effect: Preservation of Mithaniel
WT: 3.5 Size: SMALL
Class: WAR CLR PAL SHD BRD
Race: ALL
Slot 1, type 8: empty

With about 2/3rds of a month's dkp for me. Had I had to upgrade this via
DoN:

LORE ITEM MAGIC ITEM NO TRADE
Weight: 0.7 Size: SMALL
Slot: NECK
AC: +14 Dex: +12 Sta: +10 Wis: +11 Int: +11 Agi: +8 Fire Resist: +12
Disease Resist: +13 Poison Resist: +13 HP: +100 Mana: +100 End: +100
Classes: All Classes
Races: All Races
Slot 1: Type 7
Slot 2: Type 9

I may be able to get the last item in about two days of solid DoN
grinding, but it's not even 20% the upgrade that the time piece is.
Worse, if I got it, and had no recourse past DoN, that would be where my
neck slot would stay for 6-12 months while Sony slowly got around to
sprinkling the next load of sugar for the single-group ants. Meanwhile,
my Time piece will remain Uber for at least another six months, meaning
I have access to faster experience and better upgrades. Enough such Time
pieces on me and my fellow guildies, and I might be looking at GoD
upgrades before christmas.

Oh and the top piece is raid gear in the first place.

> Let's face it, I can farm, with any level of equipment right down to being
> naked, enough cash to get a full outfit of DoN gear in a couple months. Try
> and take a naked level 70 monk and get anywhere close to a similar level of
> gear in that same time period raiding.

Ok now you're just being ridiculous. EQ is not a game about competing
naked monks. You're comparing apples to naked monks. Secondly, nobody
does nothing but 'farms cash' for 'a couple of months'. Thirdly, raiders
get raid gear and build on it.

>> If we're talking 65's here, abysmal sea and most of Natimbi are greened
>>out. Tipt & Vxed were (believe me - or don't if you like) out of the
>>question for non-raider groups who weren't charm-cheating. The 4 sewers
>>zones, as far as I'm concerned, are the same zone :p 
>>
>> (although you could almost say that most GoD zones seemed identical to
>>at least one other GoD zone. What boring expansion!)
>>
>> So my exageration aside: yes slightly more than three zones, but the
>>overwhelming majority of the expansion's content locked to people either
>>not raiding or in raid gear, and although some excellent upgrades were
>>available to the charm-cheaters in VXed and Tipt, they weren't
>>sufficient to bridge the gap and allow progression.
>>
>> Now you're going to tell me GoD doesn't matter, everyone knows it was a
>>mistake :p 
>
>
> Well, everyone knows it was a mistake, but not for any of the reasons you
> mentioned. =)

Enlighten me.

> There is no such thing as "charm-cheating". I'm sorry you don't like doing
> what it takes to beat an encounter. I guess you won't be happy unless it
> can be beat by CH-cheating. =P

The effect charmed mobs had on Tipt and Vxed single-groupers was
massively overpowering (it actually let us beat both of these without
any raid gear!) and unintended. Sony subsequently nerfed charm in GoD
past these zones, to prevent us from progressing any further. The
unintended imbalance of GoD charming also lead directly to the Omens era
charm nerf.

I call it charm cheating because it felt a bit like cheating at the
time, and I know it was an entirely unintended phenomena. IIRC, we were
averaging 8 seconds per fight against yellows.

>>>KT, Ikkinz, Yxxta all available to single groupers.
>>
>> Who had a lot of raid gear on. A tiny portion of LDoN geared single
>>groupers could get to KT by charm cheating Vxed & Tipt (and some of us
>>did), but Ikkinz & Yxxta... hahahaha yeah.
>
>
> Available. Once you have access to KT, you have access to Ikkinz and Yxxta.
> Whether you take advantage of that is entirely up to you.

And your gear. Your lack of raid gear.

>> Thankfully, they don't seem to have over-fixed it - I'm not being
>>pipped out of groups by monks as I was in my 30's and 40's before the nerf.
>
>
> You weren't back then either... by comparably equipped monks.

*shrugs* I'm not sure I met an untwinked monk in that era either.
Still, why were so many people twinking and playing monks? Was it
because they were the most fun class to play? Nope. Was it because they
were overpowered? I'm going to guess 'yep'. (mostly to annoy you)

>>>>>DoN-ish gear *is* elemental gear. Hell, it's better in many ways, comparing
>>>>>favorably to Time gear.
>>>>
>>>> You mean the 250k/slot tradeskill stuff right? :p 
>>>
>>>
>>>No, I mean the stuff I see on the vendors. For time investment, you will
>>>have enough time to farm up 250k/slot for a couple of the weaker slots that
>>>will leave you (or realize that you could look outside DoN for some slots).
>>
>> Well, the vendor stuff is behind Elemental, and nowhere near time gear.
>>What are you talking about?
>
>
> I'm talking about what it looks like after you (intelligently) fill up the
> aug slots. You get a *lot* of aug slots going with DoN vendor-bought gear,
> more than I have, which definitely narrows the gap in equipment when you use
> them to put ~70 hp, and some ac, resists, or effects, *per* piece. That's
> just the augments, on top of the already decent stats on the equipment
> itself.

You can put a 70HP aug on EP gear too. The DoN stuff has an extra slot9
aug, letting you add at most 50hp, which will catch most EP gear in
hitpoints, but not AC or other stats.

So DoN-ish gear is elemental gear for sufficiently large quantities of
DoN. Or, if we're going to be realistic, it isn't elemental gear.

regards,
James
Anonymous
July 11, 2005 4:59:44 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

><james@doesntlikespam.org> wrote:
>> Well I'll get there a lot faster now I'm in a time guild.

Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> wrote:
>Doing raid progression, where the upper limit *is* much higher, means you
>will get the mid-level, or "high end single group equivalent" stuff much
>faster, but that's because you're on a much longer path.
>
>To put it another way, you just stopped running the 100 meter dash and
>started a marathon, and are celebrating because you just passed the 100
>meter mark.

The entire point of this thread is that sometimes you're competing
(in the minds of potential groupmates) with the folks in that 100 meter dash,
so you SHOULD celebrate that you've passed them.

There is simply no faster path to high-end-but-not-true-endgame gear than to
join a raiding guild and take a bunch of rot or near-rot drops.
--
Mark Rafn dagon@dagon.net <http://www.dagon.net/&gt;
Anonymous
July 11, 2005 6:47:49 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

James Hicks <james@doesntlikespam.org> wrote in news:EPKze.28623$oJ.16906
@news-server.bigpond.net.au:

> Graeme Faelban wrote:
>>>DoN gear is still significantly behind elemental. (the SK stuff is
>>>anyway)
>>>
>>>Good luck with RC :)  I was there the night my new guild finally
>>>cracked them, and it was a hell of a moment.
>>>
>>>Still wearing my LDoN Tak BP as well - although im considering it
>>>being my next DoN upgrade so I can grind it back into my last two LDoN
>>>AC augs.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Are you including the augmentability of the DoN gear vs the Elemental
>> gear?
>
> If you mean the storebought stuff yes, if you mean the crafted stuff,
> I'm not including the crafted stuff.
>
> Show me the single group tank with 2.5M pp to spend on his gear :p 
>

He should consider making it, not buying it...

Yes, I realize that is not a trivial task, so far, my smithing is only at
227. I have not even looked into what all is involved in making the
cultural armor yet.

--
On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons

On Steamfont
Graeme, 36 Dwarven Mystic, 24 Sage, Treasure Hunter <Tempest>
Aviv, 15 Gnome Brawler, 30 Provisioner
Anonymous
July 11, 2005 7:35:48 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

<dagon@dagon.net> wrote:
> ><james@doesntlikespam.org> wrote:
> >> Well I'll get there a lot faster now I'm in a time guild.
>
> Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> wrote:
> >Doing raid progression, where the upper limit *is* much higher, means you
> >will get the mid-level, or "high end single group equivalent" stuff much
> >faster, but that's because you're on a much longer path.
> >
> >To put it another way, you just stopped running the 100 meter dash and
> >started a marathon, and are celebrating because you just passed the 100
> >meter mark.
>
> The entire point of this thread is that sometimes you're competing
> (in the minds of potential groupmates) with the folks in that 100 meter dash,
> so you SHOULD celebrate that you've passed them.
>
> There is simply no faster path to high-end-but-not-true-endgame gear than to
> join a raiding guild and take a bunch of rot or near-rot drops.

I'd agree with that last statement. Of course, this doesn't make you
"comparably equipped" with your peers, because you're exchanging peer
groups, and the path to #1 is still just as long.
Anonymous
July 11, 2005 11:30:34 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

James Hicks <james@doesntlikespam.org> wrote in
news:aJ2Ae.36389$oJ.33270@news-server.bigpond.net.au:

> Faned wrote:
>> <james@doesntlikespam.org> wrote:
>>>>I see people in RS without guild tags all the time. No, I don't
>>>>bother to ask them their history. I also see people in RS with
>>>>guild tags from guilds that have yet to get into Time, which means
>>>>that a person can easily match their equipment level by gearing up
>>>>with DoN and other single-group equipment.
>>>
>>>
>>> tanks?
>>
>>
>> Yes, along with their comparably equipped guildmates. Hell,
>> sometimes I've wondered how they manage myself, but I give them
>> credit for it all the same. =)
>
> I suppose that would've eventually been me, wiping on half the
> named
> until the right stuff dropped, if my old guild had stuck together. In
> retrospect, I almost feel lucky they didn't.
>
>>>>But the fact of the matter is, you asked me what I needed hp for.
>>>>If I don't need it, why would anyone else? Are we turning this into
>>>>a warrior-specific discussion? If so, I will create a one-group 10k
>>>>warrior magelo for you and put forth the exact same arguments. =P
>>>
>>> And it will be as much a fiction as the last one. What would
>>> impress me
>>>is if you found a genuine magelo profile of a 10k unbuffed warrior
>>>who isn't wearing any raid gear.
>>
>>
>> Of course the reason that wouldn't happen is because if you have that
>> much time to spend in the game, you might as well raid and get the
>> full enjoyment out of it. =P
>
> You mean you might as well raid and spend less time getting
> better
> upgrades :p 
>
>>> The complaint is that Sony brought out yet another expansion
>>> that had 3
>>>zones for everyone and the rest really for raiders. Hell, most
>>>non-raiders couldn't stay alive in Tipt or VXed long enough to find
>>>out who good the exp was, and until Omens there was no progression
>>>available to bridge that gap.
>>
>> Abysmal Sea, Barindu, Ferubi, Natimbi, Qinimi, Riwwi, 4 sewers zones,
>> Tipt, Vxed, all accessible from the start.
>
> If we're talking 65's here, abysmal sea and most of Natimbi are
> greened
> out. Tipt & Vxed were (believe me - or don't if you like) out of the
> question for non-raider groups who weren't charm-cheating. The 4
> sewers zones, as far as I'm concerned, are the same zone :p 

I managed to complete Tipt at level 65 wearing a mixture of pre VT Ssra
gear, and tier 1 PoP gear, without any charming of any mobs involved.
Tipt is the only require flag to enter KT, although, at the time, it was
not. Our tank was a Time level raid geared Paladin, the rest of the
group was a mixture of people with about my level of gear, and raid
geared folks. This does not help a tank get the flag much, but, the
other classes do not need raid level gear to do Tipt without resorting to
charming.

>
> (although you could almost say that most GoD zones seemed
> identical to
> at least one other GoD zone. What boring expansion!)
>
> So my exageration aside: yes slightly more than three zones, but
> the
> overwhelming majority of the expansion's content locked to people
> either not raiding or in raid gear, and although some excellent
> upgrades were available to the charm-cheaters in VXed and Tipt, they
> weren't sufficient to bridge the gap and allow progression.

As mentioned above, you really only need the tank to be raid geared for
this to work, alternatively, you can still use the charm method quite
successfully, albeit with significantly reduced DPS from what you had
before.

>
> Now you're going to tell me GoD doesn't matter, everyone knows it
> was a
> mistake :p 
>
>> KT, Ikkinz, Yxxta all available to single groupers.
>
> Who had a lot of raid gear on. A tiny portion of LDoN geared
> single
> groupers could get to KT by charm cheating Vxed & Tipt (and some of us
> did), but Ikkinz & Yxxta... hahahaha yeah.

See above.

--
On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons

On Steamfont
Graeme, 36 Dwarven Mystic, 24 Sage, Treasure Hunter <Tempest>
Aviv, 15 Gnome Brawler, 30 Provisioner
Anonymous
July 12, 2005 9:17:49 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Tue, 12 Jul 2005 08:08:23 GMT alt.games.everquest James Hicks
<james@doesntlikespam.org> news:XTKAe.38234$oJ.6228@news-
server.bigpond.net.au wrote:

> You proved that DoN gear can't
> hold a candle to Time gear, which I'm pretty sure is news to nobody here.
>

But but but HPs are > ALL!

Heh. Raiding isn't fun. There is only one reason to raid.
When people start claiming that "single group" gear is as good as raid gear,
just nod and move on. It's like saying five used Yugos are as good as
owning a new Lexus.

"Yea, but *YOU* have *FIVE* Yugos!"
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