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Are monks still viable?

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Anonymous
July 10, 2005 5:42:39 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

I've got a monk and I seem to be outdamaged by rangers, rogues,
beastlords, and beserkers. I watch SK's and bards pull at least as
well as me. I get smacked around like a 2 dollar whore. And have
next to no mitigation.

I love the toon, it was my first. And will play it as an alt as long
as I play EQ.

This is not a bitch fest nor a flame war spark, just a question. I
don't have the time to become uber with gear or AA's, so my monk will
be forever mediocre in those terms. Curiosity is all really.

Thanks.

~F

More about : monks viable

Anonymous
July 10, 2005 5:42:40 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Faeandar wrote:
> I've got a monk and I seem to be outdamaged by rangers, rogues,
> beastlords, and beserkers. I watch SK's and bards pull at least as
> well as me. I get smacked around like a 2 dollar whore. And have
> next to no mitigation.
>
> I love the toon, it was my first. And will play it as an alt as long
> as I play EQ.
>
> This is not a bitch fest nor a flame war spark, just a question. I
> don't have the time to become uber with gear or AA's, so my monk will
> be forever mediocre in those terms. Curiosity is all really.

The Ranger won't outdamage you unless he put in 45 AAs. 45 AAs will
take you a long way toward improving your own DPS or mitigation. Once
the Ranger gets to that point, his potential for increased DPS is much
poorer than yours. For every piece of plat, AA, or raid time you spend
on either one, you will improve the monk's DPS faster. I have trouble
believing that a comparably-equiped berzerker or even BL will
out-damage you. Yes, the rogue will probably stay a step ahead of you
but then they have their own disadvantages.

I believe you still have the 4th best mitigation in the game? I dont
think the chain classes can out-mitigate you.

Bards are great at chain pulling, indoors or outdoors, where lots of
mobs are stacked on top of each other. The bard's advantage is mostly
erased if there is very little stacking, I believe? You do get to
pacify one mob at a time don't you? You are the best puller in many
situations though. Mobs that cant be pac'd, raid targets, etc..

You get the best, and one of the only, feigns in the game.

You get some pretty cool discs.

All-in-all I would say that on a budget, the monk would be one of the
best all-round performers, not the worst.
Anonymous
July 10, 2005 6:22:35 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Faeandar" <mr_castalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:i1v0d19t8quefdk23h6if8dt12fh07mu86@4ax.com...
> I've got a monk and I seem to be outdamaged by rangers, rogues,
> beastlords, and beserkers. I watch SK's and bards pull at least as
> well as me. I get smacked around like a 2 dollar whore. And have
> next to no mitigation.
>
> I love the toon, it was my first. And will play it as an alt as long
> as I play EQ.
>
> This is not a bitch fest nor a flame war spark, just a question. I
> don't have the time to become uber with gear or AA's, so my monk will
> be forever mediocre in those terms. Curiosity is all really.


The grass is always greener innit.
Related resources
Anonymous
July 10, 2005 6:22:36 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Lief" <ask.me.for@it.com> wrote in news:LD%ze.26454$y86.17631@newsfe1-
win.ntli.net:

>
> "Faeandar" <mr_castalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:i1v0d19t8quefdk23h6if8dt12fh07mu86@4ax.com...
>> I've got a monk and I seem to be outdamaged by rangers, rogues,
>> beastlords, and beserkers. I watch SK's and bards pull at least as
>> well as me. I get smacked around like a 2 dollar whore. And have
>> next to no mitigation.
>>
>> I love the toon, it was my first. And will play it as an alt as long
>> as I play EQ.
>>
>> This is not a bitch fest nor a flame war spark, just a question. I
>> don't have the time to become uber with gear or AA's, so my monk will
>> be forever mediocre in those terms. Curiosity is all really.
>
>
> The grass is always greener innit.
>

It's what people always said about BL's on the mage forums ..
then I leveled one to 65 and discovered what clover tasted
like after years of a steady crabgrass diet :) 

--
Arch Convoker Mairelon Snapbang
Feral Lord Bosra Snowclaw
Lanys T'vyl (Retired)

Mairelon, 36th Paladin
Silverhand
Anonymous
July 10, 2005 6:43:49 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Faeandar wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 01:42:39 GMT, Faeandar <mr_castalot@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >I've got a monk and I seem to be outdamaged by rangers, rogues,
> >beastlords, and beserkers. I watch SK's and bards pull at least as
> >well as me. I get smacked around like a 2 dollar whore. And have
> >next to no mitigation.
> >
> >I love the toon, it was my first. And will play it as an alt as long
> >as I play EQ.
> >
> >This is not a bitch fest nor a flame war spark, just a question. I
> >don't have the time to become uber with gear or AA's, so my monk will
> >be forever mediocre in those terms. Curiosity is all really.
> >
> >Thanks.
> >
> >~F
>
>
> Ok, sounds like I'm not doing something correctly then.
>
> 65 human monk
> AC 1025, HP's 2640 (still wearing Acrylia tunic

If you dont mind a potentially long camp, you can kill these
http://eqbeastiary.allakhazam.com/search.shtml?id=5422
....for this:
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=4795
....however the easiest and most rewarding path for you would be to
start doing DoN's or GoD groups. Both can provide vast improvements in
your gear if you will put the time in, and you don't have to join a
guild or be "uber" to kill those mobs.

A typical DoN will give you around 30 crystals. Around 10 missions and
you can buy just about any of the nicest equipment upgrades (more
expensive stuff is mostly augments). Mobs in WoS, RCOD, and even
Noble's Causeway drop a few upgrades you can use. And with time, you
will get the faction and drops you need for the tier one armor, also
very nice stuff compared to what you have. (around 100 HP or so on
each piece of gear, focus effects, etc..)

> but do have Sleeves
> of Constriction. Upgrading but it goes slowly.)
> Claw of the Darkfanged and Architect's Sceptre

A monk expert would know best but I think your best option for DPS
would be to find a good 2hb, not 1hb or martial?

This drops in WoS:
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=30653
....and would be a massive DPS upgrade.

Even better stuff is for sale at DoN merchants. This is one of the
better 2hb for sale there, though it is level restricted:
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=35937
Anonymous
July 10, 2005 10:07:18 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 01:42:39 GMT, Faeandar <mr_castalot@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>I've got a monk and I seem to be outdamaged by rangers, rogues,
>beastlords, and beserkers. I watch SK's and bards pull at least as
>well as me. I get smacked around like a 2 dollar whore. And have
>next to no mitigation.
>
>I love the toon, it was my first. And will play it as an alt as long
>as I play EQ.
>
>This is not a bitch fest nor a flame war spark, just a question. I
>don't have the time to become uber with gear or AA's, so my monk will
>be forever mediocre in those terms. Curiosity is all really.
>
>Thanks.
>
>~F


Ok, sounds like I'm not doing something correctly then.

65 human monk
AC 1025, HP's 2640 (still wearing Acrylia tunic, but do have Sleeves
of Constriction. Upgrading but it goes slowly.)
Claw of the Darkfanged and Architect's Sceptre
A fair number of AA's, though not uber
Return Kick maxed
Double Riposte maxed
Technique of Master Wu 1
Ingenuity 1
Rapid Strikes maxed
Physical Enhancement maxed
All the Archetype abilities maxed

I'm guessing it's mostly my gear and weapons but I'd appreciate any
comments as to upgrades. I'm working on a magelo profile so I'll post
that once I'm done.

Thanks.

~F
Anonymous
July 11, 2005 1:06:58 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

42 wrote:
> In article <1121030867.501710.264540@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> bealrabbitslayer@hotmail.com says...
>
> > Tell me about it.
> >
> > > > I believe you still have the 4th best mitigation in the game? I dont
> > > > think the chain classes can out-mitigate you.
> > >
> > > Monks are not tanks dunno why they want to tank tbh.
> >
> > At lower levels, a lot of classes end up as tanks.
>
> At lower levels monks can tank just fine. Hell I've been in groups lvl
> 50+ where the enchanter tanks. (gets big aggro fast, and holds onto it;
> healers prop him up while nukers and lousy taunt- high dps classes (e.g.
> rogues/monks/etc) tear the mob to shreds. It doesn't work everywhere of
> course... but if you happen to have a group with strong healing, high
> dps, and no tanks... enchanters can stand up pretty well to slowed mobs
> that only get to swing a few times before they are dead... (stuns help
> mitigate damage even further)
>
> It works well into the upper midgame at least. A modestly equipped 3-4k
> buffed robewearer can live plenty long enough against 50-60th level mobs
> that hit for under 500 a round (and that's LOTS of mobs)....especially
> if they can be reliably slowed, (and ideally snared)
>
> (Seen it done in places like Veksar, Fungus Grove, Natimbi etc...)

....just realized that his monk is level 65, so this is mostly moot.

> > > You do get to
> > > > pacify one mob at a time don't you? You are the best puller in many
> > > > situations though. Mobs that cant be pac'd, raid targets, etc..
> > >
> > > Wrong. Monks are the best pullers in a small number of situations, where
> > > you actually need a FD puller.
> >
> > You told me I was wrong, and then restated what I wrote...
>
> No. You you monks are the best puller in *many* situations. Lief said
> monks are the best puller in a *small number* of situations.

If I had written "most" then he might have a point. 10% of the time
can be "many" times as long as it is something that makes your class
worth playing.

> > > > You get the best, and one of the only, feigns in the game.
> > >
> > > Shaman, SK, Necro all get FD, sometimes the snaring ability of Nec / SK
> > > means their FD is actually more useful.
>
> > Sometimes, yes. Is your point to tell him that his monk is indeed
> > worthless?
>
> No. I think he's saying that that your assertion that monks have the
> best FD should be tempered with the fact that FD (even lesser FD) is
> often better when coupled with snare.
>
> That doesn't make monks worthless. It just further underscores that
> monks often aren't the best puller, even when FD pulling is required.

Yes and having the ability to pacify one mob can make the monk's FD
better than the SK/Necro's, along with the fact that you can feign
while running without having to stop, turn, cast...precious fractions
of a second that do make a difference.

My point is that the monk has lots of things going for him. It seemed
like Leif was intent on proving that monks have nothing going for them
at all.
Anonymous
July 11, 2005 1:10:00 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Faeandar wrote:
> On 10 Jul 2005 14:43:49 -0700, "Beal" <bealrabbitslayer@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Faeandar wrote:
> >> On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 01:42:39 GMT, Faeandar <mr_castalot@yahoo.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >I've got a monk and I seem to be outdamaged by rangers, rogues,
> >> >beastlords, and beserkers. I watch SK's and bards pull at least as
> >> >well as me. I get smacked around like a 2 dollar whore. And have
> >> >next to no mitigation.
> >> >
> >> >I love the toon, it was my first. And will play it as an alt as long
> >> >as I play EQ.
> >> >
> >> >This is not a bitch fest nor a flame war spark, just a question. I
> >> >don't have the time to become uber with gear or AA's, so my monk will
> >> >be forever mediocre in those terms. Curiosity is all really.
> >> >
> >> >Thanks.
> >> >
> >> >~F
> >>
> >>
> >> Ok, sounds like I'm not doing something correctly then.
> >>
> >> 65 human monk
> >> AC 1025, HP's 2640 (still wearing Acrylia tunic
> >
> >If you dont mind a potentially long camp, you can kill these
> >http://eqbeastiary.allakhazam.com/search.shtml?id=5422
> >...for this:
> >http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=4795
> >...however the easiest and most rewarding path for you would be to
> >start doing DoN's or GoD groups. Both can provide vast improvements in
> >your gear if you will put the time in, and you don't have to join a
> >guild or be "uber" to kill those mobs.
>
> I have GoD, but not DoN. I'll look into GoD.

Either one can provide some nice upgrades. If you want to save money,
keep working on GoD and forget DoN. (Though if you can afford it, DoN
is a lot of fun for non-raiders).

> >A typical DoN will give you around 30 crystals. Around 10 missions and
> >you can buy just about any of the nicest equipment upgrades (more
> >expensive stuff is mostly augments). Mobs in WoS, RCOD, and even
> >Noble's Causeway drop a few upgrades you can use. And with time, you
> >will get the faction and drops you need for the tier one armor, also
> >very nice stuff compared to what you have. (around 100 HP or so on
> >each piece of gear, focus effects, etc..)
> >
> >> but do have Sleeves
> >> of Constriction. Upgrading but it goes slowly.)
> >> Claw of the Darkfanged and Architect's Sceptre
> >
> >A monk expert would know best but I think your best option for DPS
> >would be to find a good 2hb, not 1hb or martial?
> >
> >This drops in WoS:
> >http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=30653
> >...and would be a massive DPS upgrade.
>
> Several monks I've talked to have this weapon as well as a Copper
> Hammer if Striking. I'll have to see about getting one.

Bah. You can do better than that. (But it should be fairly cheap to
buy)
Anonymous
July 11, 2005 1:11:59 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Meldur wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 18:07:18 GMT, Faeandar <mr_castalot@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 01:42:39 GMT, Faeandar <mr_castalot@yahoo.com>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>I've got a monk and I seem to be outdamaged by rangers, rogues,
> >>beastlords, and beserkers. I watch SK's and bards pull at least as
> >>well as me. I get smacked around like a 2 dollar whore. And have
> >>next to no mitigation.
> >>
> >>I love the toon, it was my first. And will play it as an alt as long
> >>as I play EQ.
> >>
> >>This is not a bitch fest nor a flame war spark, just a question. I
> >>don't have the time to become uber with gear or AA's, so my monk will
> >>be forever mediocre in those terms. Curiosity is all really.
> >>
> >>Thanks.
> >>
> >>~F
> >
> >
> >Ok, sounds like I'm not doing something correctly then.
> >
> >65 human monk
> >AC 1025, HP's 2640 (still wearing Acrylia tunic, but do have Sleeves
> >of Constriction. Upgrading but it goes slowly.)
> >Claw of the Darkfanged and Architect's Sceptre
>
> What about a pair of Velium gemmed Morningstars 20/16,very affordable,
> price on my server has dropped recently from 10k to 4k in the average.
> Excuse me ,but your weapons are extraordinary bad,surprises me
> that a level 65 is wielding 22/12 weapons nowadays,my 37 rogue has
> better.

They all dropped in price when the 15/19 weapons with better stats
appeared.
Anonymous
July 11, 2005 1:29:23 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Faeandar" <mr_castalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message

> I'm guessing it's mostly my gear and weapons but I'd appreciate any
> comments as to upgrades. I'm working on a magelo profile so I'll post
> that once I'm done.

Hmm your HP seem low to me, I had about 5.5k hp on my 70 ranger before I
quit, only had casual obtainable gear really. IIRC architects sceptre didnt
have a great ratio, I remember some decent monk weapon drops in OoW that
should be alot more damage.
Anonymous
July 11, 2005 1:29:24 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Lief" <ask.me.for@it.com> wrote in
news:TqgAe.18367$bh1.13265@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net:

>
> "Faeandar" <mr_castalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
>> I'm guessing it's mostly my gear and weapons but I'd appreciate any
>> comments as to upgrades. I'm working on a magelo profile so I'll
>> post that once I'm done.
>
> Hmm your HP seem low to me, I had about 5.5k hp on my 70 ranger before
> I quit, only had casual obtainable gear really. IIRC architects
> sceptre didnt have a great ratio, I remember some decent monk weapon
> drops in OoW that should be alot more damage.
>
>
>

Indeed - my BL had 1100+ ac and 3800 HP at 65 pre-oow.
(unbuffed).

We never got into elementals - his best items were
a hat from the big worm in the deep, a ring from a
single group mob in the sewers.

Looks like it's time for some farming and Bazaar shopping
for the OP.
--
Arch Convoker Mairelon Snapbang
Feral Lord Bosra Snowclaw
Lanys T'vyl (Retired)

Mairelon, 36th Paladin
Silverhand
July 11, 2005 2:06:01 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

In article <1121030867.501710.264540@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
bealrabbitslayer@hotmail.com says...

> Tell me about it.
>
> > > I believe you still have the 4th best mitigation in the game? I dont
> > > think the chain classes can out-mitigate you.
> >
> > Monks are not tanks dunno why they want to tank tbh.
>
> At lower levels, a lot of classes end up as tanks.

At lower levels monks can tank just fine. Hell I've been in groups lvl
50+ where the enchanter tanks. (gets big aggro fast, and holds onto it;
healers prop him up while nukers and lousy taunt- high dps classes (e.g.
rogues/monks/etc) tear the mob to shreds. It doesn't work everywhere of
course... but if you happen to have a group with strong healing, high
dps, and no tanks... enchanters can stand up pretty well to slowed mobs
that only get to swing a few times before they are dead... (stuns help
mitigate damage even further)

It works well into the upper midgame at least. A modestly equipped 3-4k
buffed robewearer can live plenty long enough against 50-60th level mobs
that hit for under 500 a round (and that's LOTS of mobs)....especially
if they can be reliably slowed, (and ideally snared)

(Seen it done in places like Veksar, Fungus Grove, Natimbi etc...)


> > You do get to
> > > pacify one mob at a time don't you? You are the best puller in many
> > > situations though. Mobs that cant be pac'd, raid targets, etc..
> >
> > Wrong. Monks are the best pullers in a small number of situations, where
> > you actually need a FD puller.
>
> You told me I was wrong, and then restated what I wrote...

No. You you monks are the best puller in *many* situations. Lief said
monks are the best puller in a *small number* of situations.

> > > You get the best, and one of the only, feigns in the game.
> >
> > Shaman, SK, Necro all get FD, sometimes the snaring ability of Nec / SK
> > means their FD is actually more useful.

> Sometimes, yes. Is your point to tell him that his monk is indeed
> worthless?

No. I think he's saying that that your assertion that monks have the
best FD should be tempered with the fact that FD (even lesser FD) is
often better when coupled with snare.

That doesn't make monks worthless. It just further underscores that
monks often aren't the best puller, even when FD pulling is required.

Even if the monks weren't 'best' at something so what? Most classes
aren't the best at something outside limited special cases. Mages,
Necros, Knights, Druids, Bezerkers, Beastlords etc all have to come to
grips that they aren't the best dps, healers, pullers, cc, or tanks.
That hardly makes them worthless.

Monks aren't the best pullers but they pull well. Monks aren't the best
DPS class but they are still very good dps. Most groups in need of dps
or a puller will gladly take a monk.
Anonymous
July 11, 2005 2:29:19 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

On 10 Jul 2005 14:43:49 -0700, "Beal" <bealrabbitslayer@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Faeandar wrote:
>> On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 01:42:39 GMT, Faeandar <mr_castalot@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >I've got a monk and I seem to be outdamaged by rangers, rogues,
>> >beastlords, and beserkers. I watch SK's and bards pull at least as
>> >well as me. I get smacked around like a 2 dollar whore. And have
>> >next to no mitigation.
>> >
>> >I love the toon, it was my first. And will play it as an alt as long
>> >as I play EQ.
>> >
>> >This is not a bitch fest nor a flame war spark, just a question. I
>> >don't have the time to become uber with gear or AA's, so my monk will
>> >be forever mediocre in those terms. Curiosity is all really.
>> >
>> >Thanks.
>> >
>> >~F
>>
>>
>> Ok, sounds like I'm not doing something correctly then.
>>
>> 65 human monk
>> AC 1025, HP's 2640 (still wearing Acrylia tunic
>
>If you dont mind a potentially long camp, you can kill these
>http://eqbeastiary.allakhazam.com/search.shtml?id=5422
>...for this:
>http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=4795
>...however the easiest and most rewarding path for you would be to
>start doing DoN's or GoD groups. Both can provide vast improvements in
>your gear if you will put the time in, and you don't have to join a
>guild or be "uber" to kill those mobs.

I have GoD, but not DoN. I'll look into GoD.

>
>A typical DoN will give you around 30 crystals. Around 10 missions and
>you can buy just about any of the nicest equipment upgrades (more
>expensive stuff is mostly augments). Mobs in WoS, RCOD, and even
>Noble's Causeway drop a few upgrades you can use. And with time, you
>will get the faction and drops you need for the tier one armor, also
>very nice stuff compared to what you have. (around 100 HP or so on
>each piece of gear, focus effects, etc..)
>
>> but do have Sleeves
>> of Constriction. Upgrading but it goes slowly.)
>> Claw of the Darkfanged and Architect's Sceptre
>
>A monk expert would know best but I think your best option for DPS
>would be to find a good 2hb, not 1hb or martial?
>
>This drops in WoS:
>http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=30653
>...and would be a massive DPS upgrade.

Several monks I've talked to have this weapon as well as a Copper
Hammer if Striking. I'll have to see about getting one.

Thanks.

~F
Anonymous
July 11, 2005 7:38:57 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 18:07:18 GMT, Faeandar <mr_castalot@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 01:42:39 GMT, Faeandar <mr_castalot@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>
>>I've got a monk and I seem to be outdamaged by rangers, rogues,
>>beastlords, and beserkers. I watch SK's and bards pull at least as
>>well as me. I get smacked around like a 2 dollar whore. And have
>>next to no mitigation.
>>
>>I love the toon, it was my first. And will play it as an alt as long
>>as I play EQ.
>>
>>This is not a bitch fest nor a flame war spark, just a question. I
>>don't have the time to become uber with gear or AA's, so my monk will
>>be forever mediocre in those terms. Curiosity is all really.
>>
>>Thanks.
>>
>>~F
>
>
>Ok, sounds like I'm not doing something correctly then.
>
>65 human monk
>AC 1025, HP's 2640 (still wearing Acrylia tunic, but do have Sleeves
>of Constriction. Upgrading but it goes slowly.)
>Claw of the Darkfanged and Architect's Sceptre

What about a pair of Velium gemmed Morningstars 20/16,very affordable,
price on my server has dropped recently from 10k to 4k in the average.
Excuse me ,but your weapons are extraordinary bad,surprises me
that a level 65 is wielding 22/12 weapons nowadays,my 37 rogue has
better.

Uland 67 Hunter
Anonymous
July 11, 2005 12:08:34 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

42 <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in
news:MPG.1d3bfe26cf737de3989be7@shawnews.vf.shawcable.net:

>> Let me add,Beastlords are another fine example by the totally wrong
>> businees strategy of SOE.
>> The only reason the class exists in its totally overpowered state is,
>> that SOE wanted to sell more copies of the Luclin expansion.
>> I would bet they lost a lot of players on the other hand,who were
>> disgruntled about making their years-long efforts to build a powerful
>> character worthless,besides dps classes I am thinking especially of
>> Shamans.
>> Seems a bad move to me,trying to get some more one time revenues
>> by loosing monthly paying players.
>
> They compensated by later releasing the berzerker which is pretty
> unremarkable in every respect. I can't even remember the last time I
> grouped with one.
>

Umm, it would be hard to argue that they were overpowered as a marketing
move since they were remarkably underpowered up until just before PoP.

After is another story.

--
Arch Convoker Mairelon Snapbang
Feral Lord Bosra Snowclaw
Lanys T'vyl (Retired)

Mairelon, 36th Paladin
Silverhand
Anonymous
July 11, 2005 1:51:55 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Lief" <ask.me.for@it.com> wrote in message
news:D t6Ae.3449$f77.337@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...

Snip opinionated correcting of other's posts :-)

> Shaman, SK, Necro all get FD,

Shaman get FD? Is that an AA listed with the snare and full xp res they also
get?
What is this Shaman FD called and how do I get it?
Anonymous
July 11, 2005 3:45:57 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

> Don't know about the marketing angle, but I do agree that BL's in their
> current implementation are part of what's wrong with EQ.

OK, I'll bite. Could you please explain this further? My main is a 60
beastlord, so I am undoubtedly biased, but I'm willing to listen.

To me, what makes the beastlord stand out is that is a melee class that
can actually solo effectively. Granted, my best strategy is to go for
mobs near the blue/light blue border and mow them down, rather than
tackling high blues. Just about every other "solo" class (druid,
necro, etc.) operates on the principle "if it never hits you, its DPS
doesn't matter". Beastlords have slow, haste (at 60+), SoW, a powerful
pet, healing spells (weak, but far better than nothing), a mana regen
buff, weak melee buffs, and are built for melee. We are very diverse.
The main reasons I chose a beastlord were because I could effectively
solo, I could kill things by melee (for me, more fun), and I could
throw buffs around in groups or to passing strangers.

On the other hand, we don't challenge the specialists. I throw very
few buffs when grouped with a shaman (or people who got Focus of
Whatever before leaving PoK), and having a shaman or enchanter around
means my slow sits idle. Mage pets are stronger, and a group is in
trouble, if a beastlord is main healer. Other classes give better DPS.
In my experience, I have rarely been in a full group (not counting
groups of 2-3) where there was not a specialist (shaman, enchanter,
etc.) that did something better than I did, so I have rarely felt that
my diversity was putting someone else out of work. I frequently solo
or end up in small groups (one or two guildies, generally), but I
attribute that to a consequence of playing off-peak hours. One of a
beastlord's greatest challenges is the effort required to "keep up".
If a ranger gets his first 21% haste item, his DPS goes up 21%, a
wizard with Improved Damage gets a flat 10% DPS boost, and a monk with
a new weapon can look straight at the damage/delay ratio to compute his
overall DPS boost. A beastlord's DPS is divided among many different
sources (DoT, nuke, melee, pet), so one upgrade has a much smaller
impact for us than for anyone else.

Anyway, I agree that beastlords are a strong class. For what it's
worth, the consensus on the beastlord forums is that our class is
generally in good shape, but we start to fall behind somewhere around
the 65+/Time+ level of progression. As I am only 60, that is beyond my
experience. However, I do not understand how they are something "wrong
with EQ". I have never met a group that was unwilling to go until a
beastlord joined up, or until getting beastlord buffs in PoK. I have
not noticed a flood of beastlords, such that most groups either have at
least 2 or are competing with a nearby solo-er. It seems to me that we
are right where we ought to be. I would like to hear your perspective.
Anonymous
July 11, 2005 4:39:30 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

In article <das57h$ba$1@lust.ihug.co.nz>,
Phil Archer <dannylee@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>What is this Shaman FD called and how do I get it?

It's called "Loading, please wait". You get it at level 1.
Anonymous
July 11, 2005 4:39:31 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

wrat@panix.com (the wharf rat) wrote in news:D atpa2$8gv$1
@reader2.panix.com:

> In article <das57h$ba$1@lust.ihug.co.nz>,
> Phil Archer <dannylee@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>>What is this Shaman FD called and how do I get it?
>
> It's called "Loading, please wait". You get it at level 1.
>

Rangers too - or as we used to say "rangers never fake it"

--
Arch Convoker Mairelon Snapbang
Feral Lord Bosra Snowclaw
Lanys T'vyl (Retired)

Mairelon, 35th Paladin
Silverhand
Anonymous
July 11, 2005 6:55:32 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Meldur <Meldur@t-online.de> wrote in
news:cji4d11t2a69eiq7n15igrj53k7fjtu6sq@4ax.com:

< snip >

>>The problem with the Ranger class is not so much lacking dps or
>>missing utility,it is the Beastlord class.Why should any group want
>>a Ranger,when they can get a Beastlord,which brings a full set of
>>Shammy buffs,more dps than any dps class,double the hps of
>>a Ranger,topped by a mana regeneration buff.
>>Oh yeah,we have snare. :p 
>>

< snip >

> Let me add,Beastlords are another fine example by the totally wrong
> businees strategy of SOE.
> The only reason the class exists in its totally overpowered state is,
> that SOE wanted to sell more copies of the Luclin expansion.
> I would bet they lost a lot of players on the other hand,who were
> disgruntled about making their years-long efforts to build a powerful
> character worthless,besides dps classes I am thinking especially of
> Shamans.
> Seems a bad move to me,trying to get some more one time revenues
> by loosing monthly paying players.
>
>

Don't know about the marketing angle, but I do agree that BL's in their
current implementation are part of what's wrong with EQ.

--
Rumble
"Write something worth reading, or do something worth writing."
-- Benjamin Franklin
Anonymous
July 11, 2005 9:21:18 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Phil Archer" <dannylee@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
news:D as57h$ba$1@lust.ihug.co.nz...
>
> "Lief" <ask.me.for@it.com> wrote in message
> news:D t6Ae.3449$f77.337@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
>
> Snip opinionated correcting of other's posts :-)
>
> > Shaman, SK, Necro all get FD,
>
> Shaman get FD? Is that an AA listed with the snare and full xp res they
also
> get?
> What is this Shaman FD called and how do I get it?
>
>
PoSky quest.
Anonymous
July 11, 2005 9:37:56 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Prelgor" <prelgor@aol.com> wrote in news:1121107557.372318.37320
@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> Anyway, I agree that beastlords are a strong class. For what it's
> worth, the consensus on the beastlord forums is that our class is
> generally in good shape, but we start to fall behind somewhere around
> the 65+/Time+ level of progression. As I am only 60, that is beyond my
> experience. However, I do not understand how they are something "wrong
> with EQ". I have never met a group that was unwilling to go until a
> beastlord joined up, or until getting beastlord buffs in PoK. I have
> not noticed a flood of beastlords, such that most groups either have at
> least 2 or are competing with a nearby solo-er. It seems to me that we
> are right where we ought to be. I would like to hear your perspective.
>
>

No, my BL doesn't match my mage for pure DPS -- but he's in the same
ballpark and brings slow, mana regen, haste etc. to the table.

As a BL with pre-elemental gear I operated as MT in Tier 3 PoP,
primary slower in the sewers (Purifying Plant) over the enchanter,
mainly because I didn't wait until the mob was under 70% to slow.

I also occasionally offtanked those mobs with the druid healing me
while the cleric healed the warrior.

On my BL I found getting PU groups far easier than getting them on
my mage because of all the extras he brought to the table.

--
Arch Convoker Mairelon Snapbang
Feral Lord Bosra Snowclaw
Lanys T'vyl (Retired)

Mairelon, 36th Paladin
Silverhand
Anonymous
July 11, 2005 9:49:32 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

>Didn't mean to sound baiting. I meant no offense to any BL's out there.

No offense taken. If someone has a rational reason why my class is
busted, I'd prefer to understand it before the nerf bat strikes. :) 

>> On the other hand, we don't challenge the specialists.
>
> I play both a mid-level enchanter and shaman, so I do tend to frequent
> their respective class boards. Though I take a lot of class
> grumbling/envy with a grain of salt, I try to pay attention to any hard
> facts presented. According to them, the beastlord slow has gotten to the
> point where it is only like 5% less effective than the shaman, and
> comparable to that of the enchanter.

You're close, the high end slows are 75% (shaman), 70% and 65%
(beastlord). Look at it from the other angle though. After the slow
has landed, the mob is attacking at 25%, 30% or 35% of its base rate.
A beastlord slowed mob is delivering 40% more damage than if it had
been slowed by a shaman (35/25=1.4). I won't try to engage in the
debate about how/whether Slow has wrecked EQ, but I understand that a
better slower is noticeable. I'll agree that beastlord slows beat the
heck out of an unslowed mob, though.

At lower levels, the effect is less dramatic. At 20, we get a 15-22%
slow (depending on caster level) - nice, but not drastic. Segue to a
long stretch until 50, when we get a 35% slow - a third less damage is
definitely significant, but not by itself overpowering. At 60, I just
got a 50% slow. Half off all melee damage is a lot, I'll admit. Now
we're entering the realm where one could argue that the existence of
slow itself is breaking EQ. :)  If I 50% slow two mobs, I may as well
have mezzed one instead.

> I can't speak to the viability of your buffs, but I do know what on the
> raids I've attended, BL buffs are assured to be on the list.

To which, I say, thank goodness. We only pass out a few, but it's nice
to have *something* unique that isn't superceded by someone else.
Rangers and Paladins have HP/ATK buffs that compete favorably with
ours, and Rangers have a DS that stacks with others, I think. Every
class should have something unique to offer, I feel.

> Naturally, I don't consider the BL a primary healer, but do you do it as
> well as a Ranger or Paladin?

Beastlord healing is on par with Ranger healing. Paladins are somewhat
better at it. A recent patch message (a few months ago) re-affirmed
the developers' intentions to keep ranger and beastlord healing at the
same level.

>> In my experience, I have rarely been in a full group (not counting
>> groups of 2-3) where there was not a specialist (shaman, enchanter,
>> etc.) that did something better than I did, so I have rarely felt that
>> my diversity was putting someone else out of work.
>
> That has been the gripe I've heard most. If your backpack only has 6
> slots, why take both a knife and a small pruning saw, when your Swiss
> Army knife has both and only takes up one slot? You may not perform some
> of your abilities *quite* as well as the specialists, but it would seem
> you do it well enough to warrant using that extra group slot for another
> high-DPS class in addition to your own added DPS. It's not that you do
> it better or even as well, it's that you do so much of it well enough.

I have heard that LDON was the best thing that ever happened to the
group desirability of beastlords, rangers, druids and shaman. The
versatility of a hybrid is a good thing, but comes with a tradeoff. A
druid can't beat cleric healing, but they bring other things to the
table. In an ideal world, the specialists should bring enough to the
table to be competitive with the hybrids. I can slow almost as well as
an enchanter, but my crowd control (off-tanking, basically) isn't
nearly as good, and my mana regen and haste buffs are inferior, to say
nothing of lacking Lull or Charm. Where a beastlord shines is that we
can substitute for a number of classes in a group. If we have a shaman
or enchanter, I can stop duplicating their talents and concentrate
instead on dealing more damage (e.g. swap out my buff or slow spellgem
for another nuke). If I'm the main slower and buffer, that's takes
away time and mana from killing things quicker.

I have heard the same thing about us supplanting others, which is why I
mentioned my limited experiences. Perhaps yours are different. As a
beastlord, my perspective is skewed - I can only observe whether I am
invited to groups with specialists who supercede me. Have you ever
been part of forming a group in which someone said, "let's take the
beastlord instead of the shaman", for no other reason than that? In a
group with a ranger, I'd rather invite the shaman, but starting with a
druid, I'd rather take the beastlord - it becomes situational. Or, I'd
rather invite a friend than a stranger. Sometimes, I'll take whomever
I can actually find, but that's another story. :) 

>> One of a
>> beastlord's greatest challenges is the effort required to "keep up".
>
> Not a very big problem in the grand scheme of things. Though I'm
> surprised to hear that you don't see the same benefit from haste items
> as, say, the ranger class. Either way, seems like a more than fair
> trade-off if you ask me, considering the myriad of abilities you
> possess.

Oh, I'm not complaining. At least at 60, I don't feel left behind on
the power curve, all things considered. As to haste,
rangers/tanks/rogues/monks all get double attack. Beastlords do not,
although we can get up to 15% double attack with AA abilities. That
alone makes haste less effective for us, although one might argue that
we're on par with knights, who do not get dual wield. In fact, one of
the more viable strategies for improving beastlord (and bard) melee
damage is to go for weapons with big procs (e.g. Delightful Orb,
Dedgerex's Cudgel, Ethereal Destroyer, etc.) instead of more favorable
damage/delay ratios, especially since we can self-buff our dexterity to
help the procs fire more often and get AA's to boost proc spell
effects. Anyway, no one is seriously arguing that beastlords need
double attack, since we already deal substantial damage with our pets,
which, say, rangers don't have. I haven't done any parses, but my
informal experience suggests that my pet outdamages me. If my pet and
I are each fighting a different mob, he usually kills his before I kill
mine. At the very high end, some beastlords have complained that this
is no longer true (this is part of an argument for more/better pet
foci). At the end of the day, when I upgraded from a 22% to 31% haste
item, my total DPS did not go up by a factor of (1.31/1.22), but only a
part of that - since I failed to likewise upgrade my damage from pet,
nukes, etc., which are substantial fractions of the total. Making
beastlords scale correctly is a difficult challenge, regardless of
whether you think we're underpowered at the high end or overpowered at
the low end.

> I think it all boils down to the fact that the BL can really do it all,
> melee, pet, heal, slow, haste, mana regen, buff, SoW, and do them very
> well. It is the Swiss Army knife of EQ without the drawbacks of
> miniaturization and compactness. The downside seems to be *very*
> minimal.
>
> I just think they wrapped up way too much functionality into that one
> class. /shrug

So, while beastlords are only second best, they are a lot closer to
first place than to not having the functionality at all? I can
understand what you're trying to say.

Where I continue to disagree is your assertion that beastlords are
something "wrong with EQ". Beastlords are not sufficiently overpowered
that everyone is dumping their main for a beastlord. I understand that
necros still put everyone else to shame for soloing prowess, and there
are plenty of druids and such around too. Beastlords are not perceived
as a "make-or-break" class, like cleric healing or warrior tanking or
KEI/Focus/Virtue buffing might be. Beastlords do not have a monopoly
on any abilities that "break" the game. I am inclined to agree that EQ
would be a better game if Complete Heal disappeared and high-end Slow
were toned down to saner levels (with the attendant required
rebalancing) - lack of either of these abilities can change whole
encounters from go to no-go. However, I don't see the beastlord class
as having, in and of itself, a deterimental effect on the game. If
beastlords are overpowered, it is not by enough to tip the game as a
whole. In other words, I disagree with you about the scale of the
problem, because I don't see the evidence for it being that large.
Anonymous
July 11, 2005 10:00:02 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

> On my BL I found getting PU groups far easier than getting them on
> my mage because of all the extras he brought to the table.

This would be the kind of evidence that would get me to concede that
beastlords are overpowered and should perhaps be taken down a notch. I
still believe that EQ has bigger (albeit perhaps less tractable)
systemic problems. :) 
Anonymous
July 12, 2005 12:50:08 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Lief" <ask.me.for@it.com> wrote in news:iUxAe.95$C62.18@newsfe5-
win.ntli.net:

>
> "Phil Archer" <dannylee@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:D as57h$ba$1@lust.ihug.co.nz...
>>
>> "Lief" <ask.me.for@it.com> wrote in message
>> news:D t6Ae.3449$f77.337@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
>>
>> Snip opinionated correcting of other's posts :-)
>>
>> > Shaman, SK, Necro all get FD,
>>
>> Shaman get FD? Is that an AA listed with the snare and full xp res
they
>> also get? What is this Shaman FD called and how do I get it?
>>
>>
> PoSky quest.
>

Must be one of those extremely fun PoSky quests that almost noone does
because it is impossible to actually find others willing to go to Sky
with you for the interminable amount of time it will require. I'll look
it up though, just in case it's actually doable.

--
On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons

On Steamfont
Graeme, 36 Dwarven Mystic, 24 Sage, Treasure Hunter <Tempest>
Aviv, 15 Gnome Brawler, 30 Provisioner
Anonymous
July 12, 2005 1:02:10 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Faeandar <mr_castalot@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:s0l2d1pgoqpeu9sc6vq58mn17k46mubb6j@4ax.com:

> On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 01:42:39 GMT, Faeandar <mr_castalot@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>>I've got a monk and I seem to be outdamaged by rangers, rogues,
>>beastlords, and beserkers. I watch SK's and bards pull at least as
>>well as me. I get smacked around like a 2 dollar whore. And have next
>>to no mitigation.
>>
>>I love the toon, it was my first. And will play it as an alt as long
>>as I play EQ.
>>
>>This is not a bitch fest nor a flame war spark, just a question. I
>>don't have the time to become uber with gear or AA's, so my monk will
>>be forever mediocre in those terms. Curiosity is all really.
>>
>>Thanks.
>>
>>~F
>
>
> Ok, sounds like I'm not doing something correctly then.
>
> 65 human monk
> AC 1025, HP's 2640 (still wearing Acrylia tunic, but do have Sleeves
> of Constriction. Upgrading but it goes slowly.)
> Claw of the Darkfanged and Architect's Sceptre
> A fair number of AA's, though not uber
> Return Kick maxed
> Double Riposte maxed
> Technique of Master Wu 1
> Ingenuity 1
> Rapid Strikes maxed
> Physical Enhancement maxed
> All the Archetype abilities maxed
>
> I'm guessing it's mostly my gear and weapons but I'd appreciate any
> comments as to upgrades. I'm working on a magelo profile so I'll post
> that once I'm done.

On the AA front, I see no defensive AAs at all. I know that for me as a
shaman, getting CA3 and LR5 made a very noticable difference in my damage
avoidance.

--
On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons

On Steamfont
Graeme, 36 Dwarven Mystic, 24 Sage, Treasure Hunter <Tempest>
Aviv, 15 Gnome Brawler, 30 Provisioner
Anonymous
July 12, 2005 1:30:05 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

the wharf rat <wrat@panix.com> wrote:
: In article <das57h$ba$1@lust.ihug.co.nz>,
: Phil Archer <dannylee@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
: >What is this Shaman FD called and how do I get it?
: It's called "Loading, please wait". You get it at level 1.

Not quite true. There is a plane of sky quest for a shaman only FD clicky
ring.

K
Anonymous
July 12, 2005 1:52:57 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Prelgor" <prelgor@aol.com> wrote in
news:1121107557.372318.37320@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

>> Don't know about the marketing angle, but I do agree that BL's in
>> their current implementation are part of what's wrong with EQ.
>
> OK, I'll bite. Could you please explain this further? My main is a
> 60 beastlord, so I am undoubtedly biased, but I'm willing to listen.

Didn't mean to sound baiting. I meant no offense to any BL's out there.
I just feel that the beastlord class is perhaps the most over-powered or
overly useful classes in the game. They took the best things from way
too many classes and rolled them up into the BL. A reduction in
effectiveness where those abilities are concerned would be the natural
balancing tactic, but that didn't happen to enough of a degree in this
case.

> To me, what makes the beastlord stand out is that is a melee class
> that can actually solo effectively. Granted, my best strategy is to
> go for mobs near the blue/light blue border and mow them down, rather
> than tackling high blues. Just about every other "solo" class (druid,
> necro, etc.) operates on the principle "if it never hits you, its DPS
> doesn't matter". Beastlords have slow, haste (at 60+), SoW, a
> powerful pet, healing spells (weak, but far better than nothing), a
> mana regen buff, weak melee buffs, and are built for melee. We are
> very diverse. The main reasons I chose a beastlord were because I
> could effectively solo, I could kill things by melee (for me, more
> fun), and I could throw buffs around in groups or to passing
> strangers.

Well, you're making my case for me. ;)  More on that in a moment...

> On the other hand, we don't challenge the specialists. I throw very
> few buffs when grouped with a shaman (or people who got Focus of
> Whatever before leaving PoK), and having a shaman or enchanter around
> means my slow sits idle. Mage pets are stronger, and a group is in
> trouble, if a beastlord is main healer. Other classes give better
> DPS.

I play both a mid-level enchanter and shaman, so I do tend to frequent
their respective class boards. Though I take a lot of class
grumbling/envy with a grain of salt, I try to pay attention to any hard
facts presented. According to them, the beastlord slow has gotten to the
point where it is only like 5% less effective than the shaman, and
comparable to that of the enchanter.

I can't speak to the viability of your buffs, but I do know what on the
raids I've attended, BL buffs are assured to be on the list.

Naturally, I don't consider the BL a primary healer, but do you do it as
well as a Ranger or Paladin?

> In my experience, I have rarely been in a full group (not counting
> groups of 2-3) where there was not a specialist (shaman, enchanter,
> etc.) that did something better than I did, so I have rarely felt that
> my diversity was putting someone else out of work.

That has been the gripe I've heard most. If your backpack only has 6
slots, why take both a knife and a small pruning saw, when your Swiss
Army knife has both and only takes up one slot? You may not perform some
of your abilities *quite* as well as the specialists, but it would seem
you do it well enough to warrant using that extra group slot for another
high-DPS class in addition to your own added DPS. It's not that you do
it better or even as well, it's that you do so much of it well enough.

> One of a
> beastlord's greatest challenges is the effort required to "keep up".
> If a ranger gets his first 21% haste item, his DPS goes up 21%, a
> wizard with Improved Damage gets a flat 10% DPS boost, and a monk with
> a new weapon can look straight at the damage/delay ratio to compute
> his overall DPS boost. A beastlord's DPS is divided among many
> different sources (DoT, nuke, melee, pet), so one upgrade has a much
> smaller impact for us than for anyone else.

Not a very big problem in the grand scheme of things. Though I'm
surprised to hear that you don't see the same benefit from haste items
as, say, the ranger class. Either way, seems like a more than fair
trade-off if you ask me, considering the myriad of abilities you
possess.

> Anyway, I agree that beastlords are a strong class. For what it's
> worth, the consensus on the beastlord forums is that our class is
> generally in good shape, but we start to fall behind somewhere around
> the 65+/Time+ level of progression. As I am only 60, that is beyond
> my experience. However, I do not understand how they are something
> "wrong with EQ". I have never met a group that was unwilling to go
> until a beastlord joined up, or until getting beastlord buffs in PoK.
> I have not noticed a flood of beastlords, such that most groups either
> have at least 2 or are competing with a nearby solo-er. It seems to
> me that we are right where we ought to be. I would like to hear your
> perspective.

I think it all boils down to the fact that the BL can really do it all,
melee, pet, heal, slow, haste, mana regen, buff, SoW, and do them very
well. It is the Swiss Army knife of EQ without the drawbacks of
miniaturization and compactness. The downside seems to be *very*
minimal.

I just think they wrapped up way too much functionality into that one
class. /shrug

--
Rumble
"Write something worth reading, or do something worth writing."
-- Benjamin Franklin
Anonymous
July 12, 2005 1:52:58 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Rumbledor <Rumbledor@hotspamsuxmail.com> wrote in
news:Xns9690ABC007125Rumbledorhotmailcom@216.148.227.77:

> "Prelgor" <prelgor@aol.com> wrote in
> news:1121107557.372318.37320@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
> I play both a mid-level enchanter and shaman, so I do tend to frequent
> their respective class boards. Though I take a lot of class
> grumbling/envy with a grain of salt, I try to pay attention to any
> hard facts presented. According to them, the beastlord slow has gotten
> to the point where it is only like 5% less effective than the shaman,
> and comparable to that of the enchanter.

That one you have to be careful of: Is a 65% slow really only 5%
worse than a 70% slow?

(these are pop level spells, I don't know the OoW ones)

On a 100DPS mob the 70% slow makes it a 30DPS mob, the 65% slow
makes it a 35DPS mob - the tank tanking the BL slowed mob is taking
16.666% more damage.

With Shaman it's even more dramatic: The shaman slowed 100DPS mob
only puts out 25DPS, so the tank tanking the BL slowed mob is taking
40% more damage than if it were shaman slowed.

Additionally, shaman have a very low aggro un-resistable debuff to
help them land their slow.

When mobs are near the limit of a group's ability, the difference
betwen shaman slows and BL slows is huge.

In the sewers it was very common to get resisted the first time and
have to recast and take some hits. And that's with my mage backing
me up with Mala/Malosini. Fortunately I could just use my disc and
tank it until I got it slowed.

> I can't speak to the viability of your buffs, but I do know what on
> the raids I've attended, BL buffs are assured to be on the list.
>
> Naturally, I don't consider the BL a primary healer, but do you do it
> as well as a Ranger or Paladin?
>

I have been primary slower, haster, stat-buffer in exp groups many
times with my BL. It means I don't use nukes, but that is the price
of being able to even handle those tasks at all. The ability to trade
off DPS for utility, then switch back when we gain a shaman is huge.

>> In my experience, I have rarely been in a full group (not counting
>> groups of 2-3) where there was not a specialist (shaman, enchanter,
>> etc.) that did something better than I did, so I have rarely felt
>> that my diversity was putting someone else out of work.
>
> That has been the gripe I've heard most. If your backpack only has 6
> slots, why take both a knife and a small pruning saw, when your Swiss
> Army knife has both and only takes up one slot? You may not perform
> some of your abilities *quite* as well as the specialists, but it
> would seem you do it well enough to warrant using that extra group
> slot for another high-DPS class in addition to your own added DPS.
> It's not that you do it better or even as well, it's that you do so
> much of it well enough.

Ooops, should have read your entire response - this is precisely the
point: My BL didn't DPS as well as my mage, slow/buff as well as a
shaman or tank as well as a plate class -- but I could step into each
of these roles and fill them "well enough" in standard XP groups.

>> One of a
>> beastlord's greatest challenges is the effort required to "keep up".
>> If a ranger gets his first 21% haste item, his DPS goes up 21%, a
>> wizard with Improved Damage gets a flat 10% DPS boost, and a monk
>> with a new weapon can look straight at the damage/delay ratio to
>> compute his overall DPS boost. A beastlord's DPS is divided among
>> many different sources (DoT, nuke, melee, pet), so one upgrade has a
>> much smaller impact for us than for anyone else.
>
> Not a very big problem in the grand scheme of things. Though I'm
> surprised to hear that you don't see the same benefit from haste items
> as, say, the ranger class. Either way, seems like a more than fair
> trade-off if you ask me, considering the myriad of abilities you
> possess.

Actually, this is the primary problem for both mages and BL's --
pets simply don't scale with gear the way melee DPS/mitigation
does. Moreover for mages, caster DPS doesn't scale as well with
gear.

This leads to the syndrome (for mages at least) of looking REALLY
good when an expansion first comes out (ding 61, get a PoP air
pet and FoT and you get this MASSIVE boost to DPS over the 60 mage.)
then stagnating while the more gear dependent classes start gearing
up.

The best solution I've seen yet is to have pets get a percentage of
your +HP/AC/Atk from your gear.

The difference between an Anguish Mage's pet and a non-raiding
mage's pet if remarkably small (in both DPS and mitigation) compared
to the difference between Anguish geared melee and non-raiding
melee.

> I think it all boils down to the fact that the BL can really do it
> all, melee, pet, heal, slow, haste, mana regen, buff, SoW, and do them
> very well. It is the Swiss Army knife of EQ without the drawbacks of
> miniaturization and compactness. The downside seems to be *very*
> minimal.
>
> I just think they wrapped up way too much functionality into that one
> class. /shrug

Which is exactly why, if I ever come back to EQ, it will be my BL I
play, not my mage.

:) 

In WoW I'm applying the lessons I learned in EQ -- don't get too
attached to one particular character/class. I'm leveling up a Paladin,
Warrior, Rogue, Hunter, Druid and a Shaman. This way I'll always be
able to change if I feel my current character got the shaft :) 

Now, I just have to finish these dang mod coding projects I started
so I can get back to leveling :)  (they have so much promise to improve
my play, plus the whole mod programming thing is a game in itself)

--
Arch Convoker Mairelon Snapbang
Feral Lord Bosra Snowclaw
Lanys T'vyl (Retired)

Mairelon, 36th Paladin
Silverhand
Anonymous
July 12, 2005 2:29:32 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Graeme Faelban" <RichardRapier@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:Xns969096E9CA9A3richardrapiernetscap@130.133.1.4...
> "Lief" <ask.me.for@it.com> wrote in news:iUxAe.95$C62.18@newsfe5-
> win.ntli.net:
>
> >
> > "Phil Archer" <dannylee@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
> > news:D as57h$ba$1@lust.ihug.co.nz...
> >>
> >> "Lief" <ask.me.for@it.com> wrote in message
> >> news:D t6Ae.3449$f77.337@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
> >>
> >> Snip opinionated correcting of other's posts :-)
> >>
> >> > Shaman, SK, Necro all get FD,
> >>
> >> Shaman get FD? Is that an AA listed with the snare and full xp res
> they
> >> also get? What is this Shaman FD called and how do I get it?
> >>
> >>
> > PoSky quest.
> >
>
> Must be one of those extremely fun PoSky quests that almost noone does
> because it is impossible to actually find others willing to go to Sky
> with you for the interminable amount of time it will require. I'll look
> it up though, just in case it's actually doable.

Its doable. Just horrible. Not difficult...just time consuming ala
traditional EQ. Think one of the drops is from the eye which means speaking
to Sirran the Loon IIRC (to get the right stuff spawned...its hazy memory).

Best two items on sky, which are still two of the best items in the game
imo, the rechargable shaman FD ring, and the instant 50% clicky ranger
cloak.

I think I solod sky before up to isle 4 or something, only need a group /
possibly duo at most, maybe soloable by some characters with lvl70 and nice
gear, wouldnt be good to die there...(wait, EQ has no punishment for death /
stupidity now I forget).

What a way to make dungeon crawling dull :( 
Anonymous
July 12, 2005 2:33:12 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Rumbledor" <Rumbledor@hotspamsuxmail.com> wrote in message According to
them, the beastlord slow has gotten to the
> point where it is only like 5% less effective than the shaman, and
> comparable to that of the enchanter.

If the mob mitiagates the % doesnt really matter.

> I can't speak to the viability of your buffs, but I do know what on the
> raids I've attended, BL buffs are assured to be on the list.
>
> Naturally, I don't consider the BL a primary healer, but do you do it as
> well as a Ranger or Paladin?

Beastlords have the same heals as rangers.

And slow.

And a pet.

But rangers look cool cos they have a bow an stuff :/ 

At the high end bsts arent actually that great though.
Anonymous
July 12, 2005 3:09:07 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Prelgor" <prelgor@aol.com> wrote in news:1121130002.734190.294490
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

>
>> On my BL I found getting PU groups far easier than getting them on
>> my mage because of all the extras he brought to the table.
>
> This would be the kind of evidence that would get me to concede that
> beastlords are overpowered and should perhaps be taken down a notch. I
> still believe that EQ has bigger (albeit perhaps less tractable)
> systemic problems. :) 
>
>

I wouldn't use the phrase "overpowered", maybe overly skilled
in too many areas?

--
Arch Convoker Mairelon Snapbang
Feral Lord Bosra Snowclaw
Lanys T'vyl (Retired)

Mairelon, 36th Paladin
Silverhand
Anonymous
July 12, 2005 4:49:31 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

On 11 Jul 2005 21:02:10 GMT, Graeme Faelban
<RichardRapier@netscape.net> wrote:

>Faeandar <mr_castalot@yahoo.com> wrote in
>news:s0l2d1pgoqpeu9sc6vq58mn17k46mubb6j@4ax.com:
>
>> On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 01:42:39 GMT, Faeandar <mr_castalot@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>I've got a monk and I seem to be outdamaged by rangers, rogues,
>>>beastlords, and beserkers. I watch SK's and bards pull at least as
>>>well as me. I get smacked around like a 2 dollar whore. And have next
>>>to no mitigation.
>>>
>>>I love the toon, it was my first. And will play it as an alt as long
>>>as I play EQ.
>>>
>>>This is not a bitch fest nor a flame war spark, just a question. I
>>>don't have the time to become uber with gear or AA's, so my monk will
>>>be forever mediocre in those terms. Curiosity is all really.
>>>
>>>Thanks.
>>>
>>>~F
>>
>>
>> Ok, sounds like I'm not doing something correctly then.
>>
>> 65 human monk
>> AC 1025, HP's 2640 (still wearing Acrylia tunic, but do have Sleeves
>> of Constriction. Upgrading but it goes slowly.)
>> Claw of the Darkfanged and Architect's Sceptre
>> A fair number of AA's, though not uber
>> Return Kick maxed
>> Double Riposte maxed
>> Technique of Master Wu 1
>> Ingenuity 1
>> Rapid Strikes maxed
>> Physical Enhancement maxed
>> All the Archetype abilities maxed
>>
>> I'm guessing it's mostly my gear and weapons but I'd appreciate any
>> comments as to upgrades. I'm working on a magelo profile so I'll post
>> that once I'm done.
>
>On the AA front, I see no defensive AAs at all. I know that for me as a
>shaman, getting CA3 and LR5 made a very noticable difference in my damage
>avoidance.

Damage avoidance has been a tertiary concern really, behind damage
output and rapid recovery (FD and mend). I came to terms with not
being a tank shortly after Kunark and haven't really looked back. I
was mainly concerned that monk DPS has been overshadowed by several
other classes; BL, rogue, ranger, beserker.

It used to be that monks were the ultimate non-caster DPS. Then
rogues started getting badass when people figured out roguery didn't
really do anything and they just went for str and backstab. It seemed
to go downhill from there.

Reading the posts from people on this thread seem to contradict posts
I received about beserkers; I was making one for a new group. At that
point people were saying beserkers were on a close par with rogues for
DPS, and since rogues are supposed to be the highest non-caster DPS in
the game now I kinda figured that put monks at least 2 classes behind.
Then hearing about BL's and ranger AA's, well, I got slightly bummed
about it. Not alot, just slightly. I still love
on-the-run-or-while-fighting FD. It just doesn't have an equal imo.

In any case, it seems there are alot of opposing viewpoints regarding
DPS; some say BL's overpowered, others Beserkers, though most agree
rogues are at or near the top. So since there doesn't seem to be alot
of consensus I think my question was answered, albeit a little
circuitously.

Monks are still viable.

Thanks.

~F
Anonymous
July 12, 2005 9:26:21 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Prelgor" <prelgor@aol.com> wrote in news:1121129372.562562.160600
@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:

>> I think it all boils down to the fact that the BL can really do it all,
>> melee, pet, heal, slow, haste, mana regen, buff, SoW, and do them very
>> well. It is the Swiss Army knife of EQ without the drawbacks of
>> miniaturization and compactness. The downside seems to be *very*
>> minimal.
>>
>> I just think they wrapped up way too much functionality into that one
>> class. /shrug
>
> So, while beastlords are only second best, they are a lot closer to
> first place than to not having the functionality at all? I can
> understand what you're trying to say.

I think closer to the point would be to say that they are too close to
first place in too many areas.

> Where I continue to disagree is your assertion that beastlords are
> something "wrong with EQ". Beastlords are not sufficiently overpowered
> that everyone is dumping their main for a beastlord.
>

No, the flavor-o'-the-month demographic doesn't rule EQ quite as badly as
in most other MMORPG's, thank God.

--
Rumble
"Write something worth reading, or do something worth writing."
-- Benjamin Franklin
Anonymous
July 12, 2005 9:30:52 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Sean Kennedy <therealorang@comcast.net> wrote in
news:Xns9690D72AEE1A8therealorangyahoocom@216.196.97.136:

> "Prelgor" <prelgor@aol.com> wrote in news:1121130002.734190.294490
> @f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
>
>>
>>> On my BL I found getting PU groups far easier than getting them on
>>> my mage because of all the extras he brought to the table.
>>
>> This would be the kind of evidence that would get me to concede that
>> beastlords are overpowered and should perhaps be taken down a notch. I
>> still believe that EQ has bigger (albeit perhaps less tractable)
>> systemic problems. :) 
>>
>>
>
> I wouldn't use the phrase "overpowered", maybe overly skilled
> in too many areas?
>

You say potato...

Actually, I agree with you there. It's there high level of effectiveness in
many different areas that is the issue.

--
Rumble
"Write something worth reading, or do something worth writing."
-- Benjamin Franklin
Anonymous
July 12, 2005 12:30:52 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

> No ;)  Ranger DS doesn't stack, and I have yet to meet people who want
> ranger buffs over BL buffs, like spiritual purity and their ATK/HP lines.

I was thinking of the Call of Earth line. It does not stack with your
self-only DS, but it does stack with your other cast-on-others DS (and
with mage/druid DS). It's small, but at least it's something.

I thought the ranger buffs had better +ATK. My understanding was that
paladins had the best HP buff, rangers had the best ATK buff, and
beastlords had a compromise. I would have guessed that rogues, monks
and rangers (non-tank melee DPS) would all prefer the ranger buff. I
will agree that rangers have no parallel to the Spiritual Light line.

> I've been in groups where we've said 'Nah, dont ask the shaman - we already
> have the BL' ;) 

I'm trying to find a way to call this fair (i.e. the group is just
rounding out its skill sets). However, this is really the worst
possible thing that can be said for my case. A shaman wasn't perceived
to bring *enough* over already having a beastlord.

> I've been in groups in PoFire and DoN with BL tank/slowers.

I don't have a problem with a beastlord slower; we can do that job
acceptably, if not optimally. I hope that the beastlord tank was
making the cleric sweat bullets. I can tank things at the dark/light
blue border, but if I pull aggro in a group facing whites, I regret it,
praise every Taunt trick the warrior had up her sleeve, and back off on
the DPS for a bit.

>> part of that - since I failed to likewise upgrade my damage from pet,
>> nukes, etc., which are substantial fractions of the total. Making
>
>And also an issue rangers face ;) 

I had thought your weapons were a much larger fraction of your DPS. I
stand corrected.
Anonymous
July 12, 2005 12:45:11 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

> You're almost entirely self sufficient and can round out any group, so
> its far easier to get a group; specialists, unlike you, are looking
> for a partciular *slot* in the group, and cant fill any other role
> if its already taken.

So, this seems to be the essence of it. A beastlord can replace the
shaman or enchanter on Slow duty. We can replace the rogue on DPS
duty. We can replace the enchanter on mana regen duty. Heck, somebody
box a cleric on over for a backup rez, and let's just take a group of 6
beastlords. :)  In other words, when we are called on as "backup", a
group isn't giving up enough by taking a beastlord. Contrast this
with, say, asking a ranger to tank, which is doable, but widely
perceived as sub-optimal.

Indeed, beastlords are quite self-sufficient. I can see how they break
a model where a cleric, warrior and enchanter form the core of a great
group but are each helpless individually.
Anonymous
July 12, 2005 2:21:15 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

On 2005-07-11, Prelgor <prelgor@aol.com> wrote:
> If a ranger gets his first 21% haste item, his DPS goes up 21%, a

Hi, Ranger spell nuke/dot DPS + archery specific haste requirements ;) 

Not to mention heal focii, mana focii, etc, etc ;) 

Sure you have those issues too; but so do other classes. Ranger is
a generalist really, just a weaker one than BL's.

> wizard with Improved Damage gets a flat 10% DPS boost, and a monk with
> a new weapon can look straight at the damage/delay ratio to compute his
> overall DPS boost. A beastlord's DPS is divided among many different
> sources (DoT, nuke, melee, pet), so one upgrade has a much smaller
> impact for us than for anyone else.

But you're focusing solely on DPS - and obviously its not just about
DPS. That monk needs AC and HP too, maybe a coin purse and some weight
reducing bags, pulling tool clickies/summoning devices, etc

....which means... more upgrades ;) 

You can't say 'They increase their DPS with one upgrade, but we have
to upgrade all these other facets of our class', because they also
have to upgrade all these other facets of their classes; mana regen,
spell foci, utility tools, hp, ac, resists, etc, etc. Everyone is
gear dependant to operate well, and only the real specialists begin
to get away from this. Rogues, perhaps. Wizzies still have to sustain
their DPS via mana regen, capacity, focii, etc.

Damn, rogues are lucky ;) 

> Anyway, I agree that beastlords are a strong class. For what it's
> worth, the consensus on the beastlord forums is that our class is
> generally in good shape, but we start to fall behind somewhere around
> the 65+/Time+ level of progression. As I am only 60, that is beyond my
> experience. However, I do not understand how they are something "wrong
> with EQ". I have never met a group that was unwilling to go until a
> beastlord joined up, or until getting beastlord buffs in PoK. I have
> not noticed a flood of beastlords, such that most groups either have at
> least 2 or are competing with a nearby solo-er. It seems to me that we
> are right where we ought to be. I would like to hear your perspective.

You're almost entirely self sufficient and can round out any group, so
its far easier to get a group; specialists, unlike you, are looking
for a partciular *slot* in the group, and cant fill any other role
if its already taken.

Really, its jealousy partly - EQ is based around competition between
classes and Beastlords have a pretty easy life. They do, to a degree,
break the EQ dependancy paradigm. Its probably just a matter of persepctive
about whether this is a good or bad thing ;) 

M
Anonymous
July 12, 2005 2:33:04 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

On 2005-07-12, Prelgor <prelgor@aol.com> wrote:
> To which, I say, thank goodness. We only pass out a few, but it's nice
> to have *something* unique that isn't superceded by someone else.
> Rangers and Paladins have HP/ATK buffs that compete favorably with
> ours, and Rangers have a DS that stacks with others, I think. Every
> class should have something unique to offer, I feel.

No ;)  Ranger DS doesn't stack, and I have yet to meet people who want
ranger buffs over BL buffs, like spiritual purity and their ATK/HP lines.

But... This isn't necessarily a problem with the BL buffs; and I'm not
convinced rangers are particularly hurting. The problem is that the BL
does so well in so many areas compared to other classes that are weak
in some areas and strong in others. If you take a single aspect of BL's
and compare it to the best class everything may look fine -

Look! Shamans slow better than us!
Rangers buff + heal almost as well as us!
Mages do a bit more DPS than us!

.... etc ...

But... all these other classes do pretty much *one* thing well; BL's
are competing with ALL of them at a very comparable level. Thats where
the problem lies. You break the Support/Dps/Tank paradigm by being...

everyting.

> for another nuke). If I'm the main slower and buffer, that's takes
> away time and mana from killing things quicker.

Sure; but if you're main slower and buffer, screw it, we can do
without the shaman, we'll have the cleric pacify pull so lets drop
the enchanter, and hey, we get so much more DPS from the extra
DPS classes and your pet, etc, that we dont miss their 'better' skills
because the mobs are dead before that extra DPS they have from the
small slow difference or lack of long duration mezzing can make a
difference.

> rather invite a friend than a stranger. Sometimes, I'll take whomever
> I can actually find, but that's another story. :) 

I've been in groups where we've said 'Nah, dont ask the shaman - we already
have the BL' ;) 

I've been in groups in PoFire and DoN with BL tank/slowers.

*shrug*

> Oh, I'm not complaining. At least at 60, I don't feel left behind on
> the power curve, all things considered. As to haste,
> rangers/tanks/rogues/monks all get double attack. Beastlords do not,

And they all get hasted *by you* ;) 

> although we can get up to 15% double attack with AA abilities. That
> alone makes haste less effective for us, although one might argue that

Oh, you mean items ;) 

> part of that - since I failed to likewise upgrade my damage from pet,
> nukes, etc., which are substantial fractions of the total. Making

And also an issue rangers face ;) 

> So, while beastlords are only second best, they are a lot closer to
> first place than to not having the functionality at all? I can
> understand what you're trying to say.

And its not just 'second best DPS' or whatever; its second best at
a whole lot of things in one toon.

> as having, in and of itself, a deterimental effect on the game. If
> beastlords are overpowered, it is not by enough to tip the game as a
> whole. In other words, I disagree with you about the scale of the
> problem, because I don't see the evidence for it being that large.

I tend to agree; if someone else is having fun , good for them. At
the end of the day if the beastlord means a shaman isnt invited,
then it means an extra rogue *is*; you're not reducing the total
size of groups.

Just dont expect the shaman to be happy about it ;) 

M
Anonymous
July 12, 2005 2:33:05 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

<pingu@keg.zymurgy.org> wrote:
>
> No ;)  Ranger DS doesn't stack, and I have yet to meet people who want
> ranger buffs over BL buffs, like spiritual purity and their ATK/HP lines.

GoE (whatever that means, tanks ask for it and I know it's a DS which is why
it doesn't stack with my own personal clicky DS). And the only beastlord
buff anyone ever has on a raid is spiritual ascendence, and that perfection
of spirit thingy they MGB on tough fights. Nobody ever takes vigor over
hunter or brells, depending on whether people want hp or atk.

I'm not sure anything actually blocks the spiritual line though. It always
seems to land no matter what buffs I have up.
Anonymous
July 12, 2005 9:55:10 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Prelgor" <prelgor@aol.com> wrote in news:1121183110.935483.146100
@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

>
>> You're almost entirely self sufficient and can round out any group, so
>> its far easier to get a group; specialists, unlike you, are looking
>> for a partciular *slot* in the group, and cant fill any other role
>> if its already taken.
>
> So, this seems to be the essence of it. A beastlord can replace the
> shaman or enchanter on Slow duty. We can replace the rogue on DPS
> duty. We can replace the enchanter on mana regen duty. Heck, somebody
> box a cleric on over for a backup rez, and let's just take a group of 6
> beastlords. :)  In other words, when we are called on as "backup", a
> group isn't giving up enough by taking a beastlord. Contrast this
> with, say, asking a ranger to tank, which is doable, but widely
> perceived as sub-optimal.
>
> Indeed, beastlords are quite self-sufficient. I can see how they break
> a model where a cleric, warrior and enchanter form the core of a great
> group but are each helpless individually.
>
>

That's not the model they break. They break the model that strives for a
role for as many classes as possible, as the beastlord can effectively all
but eliminate the need for several different classes all at once and all by
itself in too many scenarios.

--
Rumble
"Write something worth reading, or do something worth writing."
-- Benjamin Franklin
Anonymous
July 12, 2005 11:16:28 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 10:27:22 -0500, Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> wrote:

><pingu@keg.zymurgy.org> wrote:
>>
>> No ;)  Ranger DS doesn't stack, and I have yet to meet people who want
>> ranger buffs over BL buffs, like spiritual purity and their ATK/HP lines.
>
>GoE (whatever that means, tanks ask for it and I know it's a DS which is why
>it doesn't stack with my own personal clicky DS). And the only beastlord
>buff anyone ever has on a raid is spiritual ascendence, and that perfection
>of spirit thingy they MGB on tough fights. Nobody ever takes vigor over
>hunter or brells, depending on whether people want hp or atk.
>
>I'm not sure anything actually blocks the spiritual line though. It always
>seems to land no matter what buffs I have up.

Tanks want Call Of Earth not for the 10 point damageshield,but for the
34 AC which gives the buff too,and it stacks with Virtue or Druid
skins.

Uland 67 Hunter
Anonymous
July 13, 2005 12:24:45 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Lief wrote:
> "Beal" <bealrabbitslayer@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1121054818.802982.117110@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >
> > 42 wrote:
> > > In article <1121030867.501710.264540@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> > > bealrabbitslayer@hotmail.com says...

> > > > > You do get to
> > > > > > pacify one mob at a time don't you? You are the best puller in
> many
> > > > > > situations though. Mobs that cant be pac'd, raid targets, etc..
> > > > >
> > > > > Wrong. Monks are the best pullers in a small number of situations,
> where
> > > > > you actually need a FD puller.
> > > >
> > > > You told me I was wrong, and then restated what I wrote...
> > >
> > > No. You you monks are the best puller in *many* situations. Lief said
> > > monks are the best puller in a *small number* of situations.
> >
> > If I had written "most" then he might have a point. 10% of the time
> > can be "many" times as long as it is something that makes your class
> > worth playing.
>
> Mkay. So do you agree with me or not or you just bitching for the sake of
> it? ;p

I know that you saw my post as another chance to display your big brain
to everyone, but the fact is that it came off wrong. The original
poster was complaining about the monk class, specifically how monks
don't do anything better than anyone else. I pointed out that there
are *some* things that monks do better than anyone else, and that some
of the advantages other classes may have are transitory. You replied
to me explaining why I was "wrong" and whoing why monks are almost
always outshined by another class.

For example, everyone knows that Necros' and SKs' ability to snare can
give them an advantage when pulling in some cases. Snaring a mob so
that it doesn't return to its spawn point is something I was doing with
my necro long ago. There were only two reasons for you to bother
mentioning this one advantage that SKs and Necros have over monks. 1)
You want to convince the original poster that monks are indeed a
horrible class, outshined by many others. 2) You want to prove how
smart you are to everyone reading.
Anonymous
July 13, 2005 7:03:15 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Prelgor wrote:
>>Don't know about the marketing angle, but I do agree that BL's in their
>>current implementation are part of what's wrong with EQ.
>
> On the other hand, we don't challenge the specialists. I throw very
> few buffs when grouped with a shaman (or people who got Focus of
> Whatever before leaving PoK), and having a shaman or enchanter around
> means my slow sits idle. Mage pets are stronger, and a group is in
> trouble, if a beastlord is main healer. Other classes give better DPS.
> In my experience, I have rarely been in a full group (not counting
> groups of 2-3) where there was not a specialist (shaman, enchanter,
> etc.) that did something better than I did, so I have rarely felt that
> my diversity was putting someone else out of work. I frequently solo
> or end up in small groups (one or two guildies, generally), but I
> attribute that to a consequence of playing off-peak hours. One of a
> beastlord's greatest challenges is the effort required to "keep up".
> If a ranger gets his first 21% haste item, his DPS goes up 21%, a
> wizard with Improved Damage gets a flat 10% DPS boost, and a monk with
> a new weapon can look straight at the damage/delay ratio to compute his
> overall DPS boost. A beastlord's DPS is divided among many different
> sources (DoT, nuke, melee, pet), so one upgrade has a much smaller
> impact for us than for anyone else.

Except shadowknights, who have an identical spread of DPS sources, with
a lower total.

The flipside of course, is that if you DO upgrade several areas, you
get quite a *serious* dps boost. I currently have ID5 and BA5 on my SK,
and frankly, no comment ;) 

> Anyway, I agree that beastlords are a strong class. For what it's
> worth, the consensus on the beastlord forums is that our class is
> generally in good shape, but we start to fall behind somewhere around
> the 65+/Time+ level of progression. As I am only 60, that is beyond my
> experience. However, I do not understand how they are something "wrong
> with EQ". I have never met a group that was unwilling to go until a
> beastlord joined up, or until getting beastlord buffs in PoK. I have
> not noticed a flood of beastlords, such that most groups either have at
> least 2 or are competing with a nearby solo-er. It seems to me that we
> are right where we ought to be. I would like to hear your perspective.

To be honest, it is my belief that the only thing between your class
and a serious nerfing is your low numbers. In a group that has a
beastlord, I will usually forgo either a chanter or a shaman in favor of
yet more DPS.

Historically, nerfs have occurred when one class impinges heavily on
the area of another. (one of the key causes for this is a lack of clear
class definition in the first place) The famous monk tanking nerf,
chanters doing more dps with charmed pets than dps classes, etc. If
beastlords were as common as both enchanters and shaman put together, we
would see sufficient complaints for Sony to have to get off their
collective ass and nerf you.

cheers,
James
Anonymous
July 14, 2005 1:44:08 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Lief wrote:
> "Beal" <bealrabbitslayer@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > You want to convince the original poster that monks are indeed a
> > horrible class, outshined by many others. 2) You want to prove how
> > smart you are to everyone reading.
>
> So I should post complete bullshit to pander to somebodies ego?

Hell post whatever you want if it gives you validation.

You won't get it from me though bub. I think you're a putz.
Anonymous
July 14, 2005 5:48:49 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Beal" <bealrabbitslayer@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> You want to convince the original poster that monks are indeed a
> horrible class, outshined by many others. 2) You want to prove how
> smart you are to everyone reading.

So I should post complete bullshit to pander to somebodies ego? I dont think
so. None of what I said makes monks a bad class. I said they were fine or
did you just choose to ignore that bit in your effort to display your 'big
brain'

I dont have anything to prove or disprove, unlike you it seems.

Every class is outshined by another in some way or another, get a clue
please.

>
Anonymous
July 14, 2005 12:44:43 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Lief wrote:
> "Beal" <bealrabbitslayer@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1121316248.430457.216510@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >
> > Lief wrote:
> > > "Beal" <bealrabbitslayer@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > You want to convince the original poster that monks are indeed a
> > > > horrible class, outshined by many others. 2) You want to prove how
> > > > smart you are to everyone reading.
> > >
> > > So I should post complete bullshit to pander to somebodies ego?
> >
> > Hell post whatever you want if it gives you validation.
> >
> > You won't get it from me though bub. I think you're a putz.
>
> Oh you were just upset cos I disagreed with you.

That's the saddest part about the whole affair--you didn't disagree
with me.
Anonymous
July 14, 2005 4:53:51 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Beal" <bealrabbitslayer@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1121316248.430457.216510@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> Lief wrote:
> > "Beal" <bealrabbitslayer@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > You want to convince the original poster that monks are indeed a
> > > horrible class, outshined by many others. 2) You want to prove how
> > > smart you are to everyone reading.
> >
> > So I should post complete bullshit to pander to somebodies ego?
>
> Hell post whatever you want if it gives you validation.
>
> You won't get it from me though bub. I think you're a putz.

Oh you were just upset cos I disagreed with you.

/plays the worlds smallest violin just for you.

Carry on posting bullshit if it makes you happy!
Anonymous
July 14, 2005 6:27:55 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Graeme Faelban" <RichardRapier@netscape.net> wrote in message > > Shaman,
SK, Necro all get FD, sometimes the snaring ability of Nec / SK
> > means their FD is actually more useful.
>
> Um, I do? Wow, can you tell me how to activate my FD ability? I'll make
> a wild assumption that you meant Monk, not shaman?

Yes rechargeable item quest from PoSky (pita quest but, worth it)as you saw
in other post, this more for benefit of any who missed that part of
thread)). I think you can get FD in a bottle now also?
Anonymous
July 15, 2005 5:37:59 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Beal" <bealrabbitslayer@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1121355883.168287.147520@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> Lief wrote:
> > "Beal" <bealrabbitslayer@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:1121316248.430457.216510@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > >
> > >
> > > Lief wrote:
> > > > "Beal" <bealrabbitslayer@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > You want to convince the original poster that monks are indeed a
> > > > > horrible class, outshined by many others. 2) You want to prove
how
> > > > > smart you are to everyone reading.
> > > >
> > > > So I should post complete bullshit to pander to somebodies ego?
> > >
> > > Hell post whatever you want if it gives you validation.
> > >
> > > You won't get it from me though bub. I think you're a putz.
> >
> > Oh you were just upset cos I disagreed with you.
>
> That's the saddest part about the whole affair--you didn't disagree
> with me.

Oh yes I did. Except I didnt stoop to random insults to try and get the
last word in, I can if I want.

You erm....fool chewing ass fat manure spreader!!!

Too drunk too care tright now so, whatever dewd!!!1
!