I feel discouraged when I go to a torrent website, and I see 15,000 seeders, and 12,000 leechers on Borderlands 2. And that's just one site, at one time. Now my point is that game developers may soon find it unprofitable to make PC games, or at least, less profitable than making Xbox games because of how many copies are stolen. Let's assume 300,000 copies of Borderlands 2 were torrented. That's gotta be at least 10% of their sales? Maybe less. But still a significant amount. And, although it's possible to torrent Xbox games, it's much more difficult. I just want to hear what you guys think.
Will torrent websites ruin PC gaming?
- Thread starter seanpull
- Start date
Yeah, but how many copies did the producers say they sold? I'm not defending piracy, but I am a gamer because of it. Since I actually work, I play less (time and number of games) and can actually afford my games. With Skyrim and Oblivion I played the pirated versions while waiting my preorder (because that way I could play it earlier). Also, I view torrents as demos. I mean I bought Crysis because I liked the (officail) demo (this was 2 months after release). But how many games provide a demo? I want to get an idea of the value before blindly giving my money.
While I have no idea how many share my thoughts, I also know that the "piracy figures" are total bullshit. Without actually including a monitoring system (that will not stop pirates, just report anonymously) there is no way to obtain a number. Also, this process must be completely separate from the protection system, otherwise the crackers will find and disable it. Not to mention those that play offline (with bad or disabled connection). And how do you report 1 PC whose IP keeps changing or 5 PCs over a single IP without privacy issues?
Also, please bear in mind that without PC gaming, consoles will evolve even slower.
PC gaming, with it's variety of HW (GPUs mainly for gaming) is pushed by game developers with "photorealistic" and AI objectives.
If PC gaming does not stimulate GPU performance, then the industry will not bring faster devices (ar at least at a much slower rate).
Lack of "new" means slower new sales (even for low-end devices). I mean people who can afford will not change their HW.
If sales are going down, where do you get money for research? Raise prices and you affect sales even more.
While I have no idea how many share my thoughts, I also know that the "piracy figures" are total bullshit. Without actually including a monitoring system (that will not stop pirates, just report anonymously) there is no way to obtain a number. Also, this process must be completely separate from the protection system, otherwise the crackers will find and disable it. Not to mention those that play offline (with bad or disabled connection). And how do you report 1 PC whose IP keeps changing or 5 PCs over a single IP without privacy issues?
Also, please bear in mind that without PC gaming, consoles will evolve even slower.
PC gaming, with it's variety of HW (GPUs mainly for gaming) is pushed by game developers with "photorealistic" and AI objectives.
If PC gaming does not stimulate GPU performance, then the industry will not bring faster devices (ar at least at a much slower rate).
Lack of "new" means slower new sales (even for low-end devices). I mean people who can afford will not change their HW.
If sales are going down, where do you get money for research? Raise prices and you affect sales even more.
I don't think it is as bad as it looks. When I was earning a lot less than I am now I was a massive pirate, but since then I have bought loads on Steams and all of the really good ones I pirated out of guilt.
So there will be a percentage of those people like me who will end up buying at some point.
So there will be a percentage of those people like me who will end up buying at some point.
First of all, if 300,000 copies were torrented, they cannot say that those are lost sales. Because for all they know those people could never afford to pay $60 for that game. So, applying statistics to bogus numbers doesn't really help the argument one way or another.
More to the point on your original question: torrent websites will not kill PC gaming. If you're familiar with the said websites, you should already know there's just as many cracked/copied versions of console games you can download. So, unfortunately for developers, piracy applies to consoles too (but publisher companies don't want you to know that).
Besides that, torrent sites are not the problem, because no torrent website charges people for the downloaded games (none that I've heard of). So, even though torrent websites are illegal a developer/publisher cannot claim income loss since no income was incurred by the said torrent site. However, there's a pretty large spread "black market" for pirated games on the street. This is especially true for countries in for example eastern europe. There, pirated game retails for about $5. That is the true income the publisher lost, because people were willing to pay for the game, except they paid for a "discounted" game. That's a lost sale, and that is the biggest problem that exists in the piracy scene.
Torrent websites contribute to the spread of pirated copies, and make it easier for those back alley vendors to make a quick buck since all they have to pay for is a CD+burner to possibly make loads of money at close to 100% profit margin.
And again, don't kid yourself that this only applies to PC gaming. The situation is exactly the same for consoles. The only reason we are seeing games consistently developed for consoles instead of PC is console hardware has stayed the same for 8 years. Every developer and their grandmother has developed libraries and engines for console coding, so only thing they got to change is put in new game content. For a PC every time you make a new game you got to update the engine to keep up with new hardware/drivers/APIs/etc. It's much more costly to develop for PC, and with industry tendency on making a quick buck for as cheap as possible, consoles is an obvious go-to platform.
As an off-topic: companies like EA will ruin gaming in general.
More to the point on your original question: torrent websites will not kill PC gaming. If you're familiar with the said websites, you should already know there's just as many cracked/copied versions of console games you can download. So, unfortunately for developers, piracy applies to consoles too (but publisher companies don't want you to know that).
Besides that, torrent sites are not the problem, because no torrent website charges people for the downloaded games (none that I've heard of). So, even though torrent websites are illegal a developer/publisher cannot claim income loss since no income was incurred by the said torrent site. However, there's a pretty large spread "black market" for pirated games on the street. This is especially true for countries in for example eastern europe. There, pirated game retails for about $5. That is the true income the publisher lost, because people were willing to pay for the game, except they paid for a "discounted" game. That's a lost sale, and that is the biggest problem that exists in the piracy scene.
Torrent websites contribute to the spread of pirated copies, and make it easier for those back alley vendors to make a quick buck since all they have to pay for is a CD+burner to possibly make loads of money at close to 100% profit margin.
And again, don't kid yourself that this only applies to PC gaming. The situation is exactly the same for consoles. The only reason we are seeing games consistently developed for consoles instead of PC is console hardware has stayed the same for 8 years. Every developer and their grandmother has developed libraries and engines for console coding, so only thing they got to change is put in new game content. For a PC every time you make a new game you got to update the engine to keep up with new hardware/drivers/APIs/etc. It's much more costly to develop for PC, and with industry tendency on making a quick buck for as cheap as possible, consoles is an obvious go-to platform.
As an off-topic: companies like EA will ruin gaming in general.
It's a rather specious argument to say that 1 pirated copy is equal to 1 lost sale. Some of those people would have never bought the game at any price, some people may have bought the game after pirating it, some people might buy it but prefer the pirated version because it provides a better experience. To name a few ways (that don't necessarily apply to Borderlands 2: No need for the game disc in the drive, no need to be connected to a server in order to play the game, and no DRM that could easily fit the definition of a rootkit. People click the icon for the game, and get to actually play the game with minimal hassle. I've also seen "hacks" that cut out the long series of company adverts before the main screen of the game loads.
So, I think there's plenty of blame to go around, developers and pirates alike.
So, I think there's plenty of blame to go around, developers and pirates alike.
- Jan 3, 2012
- 15,316
- 0
- 52,960
Hi 
Anyone else remember 1998 ?
Half Life Beta was "accidentally released onto the net"
It was absolutely stunning as a new game, and everybody downloaded the illegal version and played it....even though it wasnt finished, including me...
The second it was Officially released, I and hundreds of thousands of others rushed to buy it....
Now did Gabe Newell release it on purpose ? I dont know , but would love to discuss it with him....
Whether he did or not...it was the start of Steam and made him and Valve millions....
Word of mouth is a VERY powerful selling tool....
The only problem these days is that games generally are not that good or different....
I would pay double or treble for Half Life 3 though
All the best Brett
Anyone else remember 1998 ?
Half Life Beta was "accidentally released onto the net"
It was absolutely stunning as a new game, and everybody downloaded the illegal version and played it....even though it wasnt finished, including me...
The second it was Officially released, I and hundreds of thousands of others rushed to buy it....
Now did Gabe Newell release it on purpose ? I dont know , but would love to discuss it with him....
Whether he did or not...it was the start of Steam and made him and Valve millions....
Word of mouth is a VERY powerful selling tool....
The only problem these days is that games generally are not that good or different....
I would pay double or treble for Half Life 3 though
All the best Brett
- Jan 3, 2012
- 15,316
- 0
- 52,960
Hi
Over the last 12 years or so of Steam, a lot of people thought they could get around its security, and they were correct for a short period of time, then they alter it again and all those torrented games wont work anymore....
Yes kids will always Pirate ..until they get caught, but most gamers have a sense of fairness and usually are happy to pay for a good game...
All the best Brett
Pirating has already affected PC gaming. PC developers have found that there are many times more pirated PC games as there are console games. As a result, many developers stopped making games for PC's, and instead port their console games to the PC, if they offer a PC version of the game at all. You'll also notice that PC dev's are more focus on online games. Like MMO's in particular. This is the one area that dev's have found works with PC's.
When some games are finding that 80% of the copies out there are pirated versions, the dev's take notice.
When some games are finding that 80% of the copies out there are pirated versions, the dev's take notice.
casualcolors
Distinguished
- Apr 18, 2011
- 2,043
- 0
- 19,960
I would share your opinion on this particular point, if it wasn't for companies who are NOT advocating strict DRM to combat pirates (see: CD Projekt RED) being fairly confident in reporting that their game (Witcher 2 in this instance) was pirated more than it was purchased. Since they aren't adopting the hard line of irresponsibly censoring gamers' rights, they can make such a statement with an air of validity as they're not striving to overstate the issue in the first place and are adopting a policy that assumes people are mostly honest (even as they are repeatedly proven to not be in the instance of PC piracy).
Which is to say that "I know" is an overly strong phrase, if you follow.
Also I don't view pirated copies of games as demos, but neither does anyone else still posting here so that's hardly worth addressing really.
casualcolors
Distinguished
- Apr 18, 2011
- 2,043
- 0
- 19,960
If game publishers and developers were one giant collective, this would be only slightly less stupid.
most cases, if a new game is coming out, ill check with friends to see if they will be buying it as well, especially on steam if they come out with package deals, we will all pitch in and buy that to save on cash.
i dont normally torrent games, even if i do its because im uncertain about liking it, and once i try it out if i dont like it i just remove it because it is a waste of space, but if i like it ill go out and buy it for my library of games.
i know torrenting games is wrong, but why should i fund a game developer when the game is not worth my time to even play all the way through.
i dont normally torrent games, even if i do its because im uncertain about liking it, and once i try it out if i dont like it i just remove it because it is a waste of space, but if i like it ill go out and buy it for my library of games.
i know torrenting games is wrong, but why should i fund a game developer when the game is not worth my time to even play all the way through.
I can say the same for most everything else in life. Movies aren't always what we expected, cars don't always show us their true colors until later. TV's and monitors aren't always what we expected. We buy these products or pay to see them knowing that we want or need them. There are no guarantees that we'll like them.
It's great when they give a demo, which gives us a better idea, but how often have you "demoed" a game from a torrent site, and after 20+ hours of play, you never purchased the real game? I don't expect and answer, because I doubt I'd get the truth anyways, but think about it for your self.
It's great when they give a demo, which gives us a better idea, but how often have you "demoed" a game from a torrent site, and after 20+ hours of play, you never purchased the real game? I don't expect and answer, because I doubt I'd get the truth anyways, but think about it for your self.
i total get where you are coming from, im not trying to defend what some of us do is right, because it is not. just saying if a company really wants my money that bad and they say their game is really worth it then show me, let me have a taste and i can decide from there.
majestic1805
Honorable
- Oct 1, 2012
- 270
- 0
- 10,810
You can call me a bullshitter if you want but I don't really care. I have both consoles and PCs and have zero issue torrenting a game I bought for my console. Skyrim is a prime example. I love the console version but the modding capability is too good for me to pass up so yes I plan on downloading it soon. Bethesda has my money for it, its DLC and in other games like Fallout 3 but I'm sure it'll show up in some statistic somewhere and used to say how they're losing money somehow.
My general take on piracy is that it's generally a service issue. Content providers want to dictate every tiny aspect about their product which goes counter to the first sale doctrine which states that once you sell it to me then I can do with it whatever I want. I pirate mostly to get things across devices, get no CD versions, versions that don't report back to home base when it's not really an always online application and to get around other protections that limit how I can use what I've purchased.
The bottom line is I view the products I purchased as mine. I give very little leeway to the concept of licenses except where absolutely necessary (MMOs for instance) or there are inherent limitations that are obvious going into the deal (like going to a movie theater) again leaning back to the first sale doctrine which has been how business is done for everything not digital.
My general take on piracy is that it's generally a service issue. Content providers want to dictate every tiny aspect about their product which goes counter to the first sale doctrine which states that once you sell it to me then I can do with it whatever I want. I pirate mostly to get things across devices, get no CD versions, versions that don't report back to home base when it's not really an always online application and to get around other protections that limit how I can use what I've purchased.
The bottom line is I view the products I purchased as mine. I give very little leeway to the concept of licenses except where absolutely necessary (MMOs for instance) or there are inherent limitations that are obvious going into the deal (like going to a movie theater) again leaning back to the first sale doctrine which has been how business is done for everything not digital.
casualcolors
Distinguished
- Apr 18, 2011
- 2,043
- 0
- 19,960
I agree that it would be nice to see game demos made more widely available, but they are actually becoming more common. A lot of games have demos if you're willing to go look for them these days, just not all games.
Regardless of this, it does not in any way justify stealing the game for temporary use or otherwise. People are trying to try different lines in the sands of morality because we're dealing with a digital product that they don't have to actually slip into their pocket to steal, and if I'm to be frank most people thieving on the internet also don't have the minimal amount of spine required to risk stealing a physical product otherwise.
and again i agree. stealing online is as easy as just clicking a button, and that is why as long as torrent sites stay up there will always be piracy no matter what, some people may be caught doing it, get fines, or ISP cut offs (depending on the country and severity) but it will not keep everyone from downloading illegally.
For me its very hard to take a stand on either side (pirates vs Companies), since both are doing something wrong.
It seems however that companies are never rearly punished by governments for their behaviour, while pirates can have their entire life ruined (for submiting software to others for free).
Then there are other companies that make games and give them for free...
So in my books, i play free games, buy great games once i can afford them.
It seems however that companies are never rearly punished by governments for their behaviour, while pirates can have their entire life ruined (for submiting software to others for free).
Then there are other companies that make games and give them for free...
So in my books, i play free games, buy great games once i can afford them.
I'm not sure what the game companies are doing that is wrong. I've been gaming for 25 years, and the price for games have stayed the same, but the cost to make games has gone up many times over. Game developers spend 12-16 hours days every day to build these games for average salary, and most these games don't make money, so the producers don't make money most the time. It's all a gamble.
casualcolors
Distinguished
- Apr 18, 2011
- 2,043
- 0
- 19,960
Do you mean companies in general (which you could argue is outside the scope of this argument concerning digital game piracy) or do you mean gaming companies specifically (of which none I can think have done anything to warrant real world legal consequences, perhaps barring Blizzard's warranted wirefraud scandal)?
Clearly some companies are doing quite well making and selling PC games, so you have to think the companies that blame piracy for their failure are probably just poorly managed and were making crappy games in the first place. Success isn't guaranteed in any industry. Games like Bastion and Torchlight have shown that when you don't have a bloated marketing campaign or huge corporate infrastructure that your game has to support that you don't have to charge 60 bucks and include an intrusive DRM system to make your game profitable.
- Status
Latest posts
-
Question Bad Frame Drops 2080 TI with low CPU and GPU utilization- Latest: JohnBonhamsGhost
-
-
-
-
Facebook
Twitter
Instagram