Watercooling question

Civilized · Feb 10, 2003

I am wanting to purchase the Swiftech MCW-50 gpu cooler for my radeon9700pro....I have a black ice mini radiator that uses 3/8" tubing...the problem is that the gpu block uses 1/2" tubing I think...im not really sure about this....can I use 3/8" tubing with this block?....I like the radiator because it fits in my case nicely compared to the larger black ice radiators

Without question, the greatest invention in the history of mankind is beer. Oh, I grant you that the wheel was also a fine invention, but the wheel does not go nearly as well with pizza

svol · Feb 10, 2003

With a little force you will get them on if the tubes are flexible enough. 3/8" Is smaller then 1/2" so you wont have leaks or anything... getting them on is just a little more difficult.

But hey, I use 6mm silicon tubes on 10mm connectors (they are very flexible).

My dual-PSU PC is so powerfull that the neighbourhood dimms when I turn it on

Civilized · Feb 10, 2003

True...I can always give it a shot

...I will keep ya tuned

Without question, the greatest invention in the history of mankind is beer. Oh, I grant you that the wheel was also a fine invention, but the wheel does not go nearly as well with pizza

RCPilot · Feb 10, 2003

If the tubes are to tight or hard to push on, lube em up a bit with something water soluble. KY jelly maybe?

If it ain't broke, take it apart & see why not!

Civilized · Feb 10, 2003

Nice =]..

Without question, the greatest invention in the history of mankind is beer. Oh, I grant you that the wheel was also a fine invention, but the wheel does not go nearly as well with pizza

RCPilot · Feb 10, 2003

Been thinking a bit more about it. Maybe just a tad bit of undiluted Antifreeze. It's slippery as hell. I just don't want to taint your system. Antifreeze wouldn't I don't believe.

If it ain't broke, take it apart & see why not!

Civilized · Feb 11, 2003

Ok I changed my mind....I am going all 1/2" tubes...Here is what I purchased...give me your opinions..

-Black Ice Pro EVO (BLUE) Radiator
-swiftech mcw50 gpu waterblock
-swiftech mcw5000 cpu waterblock
-10'of clearflex tubing 1/2"
-Hydor L30 320GPH Pump
-Danger Den Clear Reservoir
-120mm Aluminum fan for the radiator

Is there anything else you guys think I will need? What kinda temps should I expect on my p4 2.4B?....does anyone want to buy my old swiftech mcx4000 heatsink and a thermaltake smartfan II fan?

Without question, the greatest invention in the history of mankind is beer. Oh, I grant you that the wheel was also a fine invention, but the wheel does not go nearly as well with pizza

RCPilot · Feb 11, 2003

Really I'm not the guy to ask that. I was just trying to help on a mechanical problem. I have never see a water rig in person. I have just seen the reviews. I am curious about everything & want to learn, so I lurk here just for that.

If it ain't broke, take it apart & see why not!

Lonemagi · Feb 11, 2003

Cooling is going to be reletive to room temps, but more so than normal.

Im not famliar to P4 temps, but they should at least be 10c lower than decent air cooling. (Reletive to my experiance)

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svol · Feb 11, 2003

I think that is all you need if you put everything in serie.

May I ask what you plan to do with the Black Ice Mini radiator? If you plan to sell it... I'm interested.

My dual-PSU PC is so powerfull that the neighbourhood dimms when I turn it on

Civilized · Feb 11, 2003

the water systems are really easy to put together....it is the install process that can be a pain because some radiators can be too large for some cases without mods...hopefully mine will fit fine =].....I would like to learn how TEC's work and experiences with them

Without question, the greatest invention in the history of mankind is beer. Oh, I grant you that the wheel was also a fine invention, but the wheel does not go nearly as well with pizza

Civilized · Feb 11, 2003

I dont know what I will do with the black ice mini...my roommate is wanting it as of now...if he doesnt want it I will let ya know

..

Without question, the greatest invention in the history of mankind is beer. Oh, I grant you that the wheel was also a fine invention, but the wheel does not go nearly as well with pizza

svol · Feb 14, 2003

Well not if you build it from different manufactuers products... then you sometimes need to have tube resizers. And making your own waterblock is also very difficult, but mine is working perfect.

I can probably tell you all you want to know about peltiers, here are some basics:
Peltiers are not coolers, they are just heat pump without moving parts. A peltier can move a certain maximum of heat called Qmax, if you want to cool a CPU with a peltier you need a Qmax of atleast 80W, preferably high in the hundreds (150W or something). The peltier can create a max deltaT (difference between the hot and cold side) of 65-70C if you have the following situation: you have absolute zero heat input (Q=0 W), the voltage is a Vmax and the amperage is a Imax. This setup is tottally useless in normal use, under a lod of about 80W, peltiers with a Qmkax of more then 100W will have a deltaT of about 30C if your lucky.
But a peltier is more then a heat pump, it also adds more heat to the hot side when pumping heat. If you got a 150W peltier and you are supplying 80W of heat to the cold side, you will get a heat output at the hot side between 160-230W (depending on the peltier efficiency).
You need to cool the hot side with a very good cooler to get reasonable temps, which means that you always need watercooling for peltiers cooling CPUs. Say you got a watercooler with a heat transporting coefficient of 0.1 C/W (at each watt the temp will increase 0.1C above ambient/water temp). With 160W heat you will get a Thot increase of 16C above ambient, making it 36C if the ambient is 20C. This will result in a CPU temp of 6C with a deltaT of 30C. If you got some really kick ass watercooling you can have a heat transporting coefficient of 0.05 C/W, which can result in below ambient temps on full CPU load.
Always keep the Thot below 100C, otherwise the solder inside the TEC may melt.

Oh and now something aboput powering a peltier (TEC): most peltiers requiere a voltage between 15-24V DC and an amperage of 8-15A. You will need a very good (and often expensive) special powersupply to feed a peltier.

My dual-PSU PC is so powerfull that the neighbourhood dimms when I turn it on

LtBlue14 · Feb 14, 2003

adding a pelt will make the water considerably warmer, so northbridge and gpu cooling won't be as good
if you could go cpu(with pelt) -> radiator -> gpu/nb then it might not hurt your results too bad
but yeah make sure you either get an additional power supply (they make small ones that you can connect specifically for pelts, they're like the size of a floppy drive or something)
since your power supply probably has 3.3V, 5V and 12V rails (unless you got a special one), you'll need a transformer of some kind between it and the peltier, and that will be a real pain in the @$$
make sure you get the neoprene fitted properly, as well!
i think pelts are kind of a pain, as you can tell by my post, but they definitely can provide great temps

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svol · Feb 14, 2003

O yes, I completely forgot the isolation aspect... afcourse you need to isolate the socket, back of mobo, inside of socket and the coldplate that is touching the cold side of the peltier.
And yes, placing the GPU and NB before the CPU will probably be the best option, although with a good water flow the water will not heat that much.
Normal PC PSU's are no go with peltier (unless you got a 12V peltier)... you will need a special one. Meanwell makes some good ones in a lot of voltage and wattage ranges.

My dual-PSU PC is so powerfull that the neighbourhood dimms when I turn it on

Civilized · Feb 14, 2003

thanks for the posts guys....I have always wanted to know more about thermoelectric cooling....Right now I do not have the peltier version of the waterblock.....I might upgrade in the future to a pelt waterblock but until I learn more about them and how to handle the condensation issues I wanted to stick to normal water cooling....I will know who to ask once that comes along

....one more question for ya svol.....my radeon gets hotter than a frying pan it seems like....so should I put the cpu before the gpu in the water cooling series??.....I am using a high powered pump(320gph) so it shouldnt matter in the order or will it?

Without question, the greatest invention in the history of mankind is beer. Oh, I grant you that the wheel was also a fine invention, but the wheel does not go nearly as well with pizza

svol · Feb 15, 2003

I don't think it should matter as long as the tubes are big enough with that pump. The Radeon may feel hot but it will put out less heat then the CPU. It is just so hot because the heatsink is to small for it.

Peltier condensation is relatively good to prevent with foam and silicon kit.

My dual-PSU PC is so powerfull that the neighbourhood dimms when I turn it on

Civilized · Feb 18, 2003

Svol, I even replaced the stock heatsink with crystal orb cooler and it still gets pretty hot....personally I think this cooler is doing worse of a job than stock....The end of this week I should have the case mods finished and I will start putting the water cooling elements in place

......
One question about peltier cooling....when you say you can prevent it with foam or silicon, where do you actually put the foam, neoprene etc?....could you maybe give me some pics of how you have yours setup?? That would give me a better idea....thanks man

Without question, the greatest invention in the history of mankind is beer. Oh, I grant you that the wheel was also a fine invention, but the wheel does not go nearly as well with pizza

LtBlue14 · Feb 19, 2003

<A HREF="http://www.octools.com/index.cgi?caller=articles/condensation/howto.html" target="_new">one way of preventing condensation</A>
most ways are either this or slight variations of it
he does it for a slocket (slot/socket combined), but the process is the same afaik

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Civilized · Feb 19, 2003

very nice link!....That looks very easy to do. Thanks

Without question, the greatest invention in the history of mankind is beer. Oh, I grant you that the wheel was also a fine invention, but the wheel does not go nearly as well with pizza

Civilized · Feb 19, 2003

One more question....is it advisable to mix match the water cooling elements....meaning would you say use a pelt cooled video card with a non pelt cooled cpu?...would the pelt from the video create too much heat and kill the cooling performance of the non pelt cooled cpu? I like the gpu pelt cooler because you can just hook it up on a normal power supply without the need of another psu...but then again if you are going to do one why not do the other...humm

Without question, the greatest invention in the history of mankind is beer. Oh, I grant you that the wheel was also a fine invention, but the wheel does not go nearly as well with pizza

LtBlue14 · Feb 20, 2003

the gpu pelt will raise water temperatures
how much depends on the power of the pelt, and on how good your radiator is
two pelts on a system will really warm up the water, a dual radiator with 120mm fans is probably in order
svol will have a better idea of just how much a given pelt will heat up the water (a rough estimate) though as i said, your exact results will depend on your radiator setup
hmm should this have been discussed in the cpu cooler section? yes, but oh well

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Civilized · Feb 20, 2003

why start another thread in another section when I already have the topic started here....the subject of the matter hasnt changed but yet focused on how adding a different component would alter performance of my system....I have already stated my radiator setup in the first post along with all of my components...anyways...I am going to stick with what I started with and see what results I get...I will wait till my next system to experiment with pelts

Without question, the greatest invention in the history of mankind is beer. Oh, I grant you that the wheel was also a fine invention, but the wheel does not go nearly as well with pizza

svol · Feb 20, 2003

Sorry I couldn't response quicker... I was in the middle of finishing my thermo-electrics graduating project the last days.

The link LtBlue14 posted is a good example, but with your P4 you will have to do the following:
1. Put isolation to the back of the mobo, use the same stuff OCtools used.
2. Seal the socket with some kind of glue then put foam around and inside the socket.
2b (optional). You might want to put some non-conductive vaseline on your socket so all the gaps of the CPU pins get filled when the CPU is installed.
3. Put something isolating like silicon-kit in the gaps between the coldplate and the waterbloakc once your peltier is at the right place.
4. Put foam around the coldplate and let it touch the waterblock so everything is sealed.
5. Assemble it.

You can find some Swiftech thermo-electric guides here:
<A HREF="http://www.swiftnets.com/installation.htm" target="_new">http://www.swiftnets.com/installation.htm</A>

I don't have a peltier setup running at the moment so I can't show you any pics.

If you still got questions about peltiercooling ask me... I graduated with it (well... not yet, my teacher has to mark the paper first).

My dual-PSU PC is so powerfull that the neighbourhood dimms when I turn it on

svol · Feb 20, 2003

Lets think... for the Radeon you will need atleast a 60W peltier I think. Maybe 80W so you got a pretty cold GPU.

At full power the peltier will emmit 80W + the amount of heat produced by the GPU. So lets say someting in the area of 120W. It is best to place the pelt cooler first because it will need the coolest water. Depending on your waterflow the water will only increase 2-3 C.
In my test setup with a 156W peltier running at max with about 20W extra heat comming in through the poor isolation on the cold side the watertemp stayed around 1-2 C above ambient.

But for a 80W peltier you probably need a second PSU. You could use a lower watt peltier if you know how much heat the Radeon puts out at max.

My dual-PSU PC is so powerfull that the neighbourhood dimms when I turn it on

Watercooling question

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