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Florida Getting Ready for Military Draft

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Anonymous
June 11, 2005 11:00:40 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.final-fantasy,alt.sports.football.pro.dallas-cowboys,alt.sports.basketball.nba.la-lakers,rec.sport.pro-wrestling,alt.politics (More info?)

Amazing that well over half the country supported the war, which is over 100
million people, yet the military can't get enough recruits. When are the
warhawks actually going to back up their bullshit and enlist? They should
draft the kids of the redumblicans, they won't of course though; what good
will drafting them do anyway? They'd just dodge their service like GWB.

http://www.gainesville.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/2...
7/1078/news

State's draft boards need 78 Floridians to fill posts

By KAREN VOYLES

Sun staff writer
June 06. 2005 6:01AM

Uncle Sam wants you and is willing to hold basic training time down to eight
hours if you are willing to volunteer.

What the federal government is looking for are at least 78 Floridians
willing to serve on draft boards even though the nation has not had a draft
for 25 years.

?These local folks would decide cases that involve individuals who may be
claiming a hardship, or that they are a conscientious objector, or
ministerial student, or member of the clergy, or have some other reason why
they believe they should not be drafted,? said Dick Flahavan, associate
director of Public and Intergovernmental Affairs for the Selective Service
System.

The current system has been in place since 1980, standing by in case a draft
is instituted. In Florida, the vacancies are scattered among the 91 draft
boards. Some boards serve only one county, while other boards may serve up
to five.

Nationwide, all 2,000 local draft boards are made up of five citizen
volunteers who have been nominated by their state's governor and appointed
by the director of Selective Service in the name of the president.

Board members must meet certain criteria, including being a U.S. citizen, at
least 18 years old, not a retired or active member of the armed forces or
any reserve component, a resident in the area in which the board has
jurisdiction, and willing to spend enough time at the position.

The time commitment is minimal during peacetime, Flahavan said. Following an
initial eight hours of training, members are expected to participate in
three-hour annual training sessions.

However, the time commitment could increase significantly during a draft.

According to the sequence of events listed on the agency's Web site, once
potential draftees have undergone a physical, mental and moral evaluation by
the military, they have 10 days to file a claim for exemption, postponement
or deferment. Those claims are reviewed and decided by the local draft
boards. The board has the authority to interview the draftee and people who
know him before making their decision.

?We have vacancies all of the time because of normal attrition and because
there is a limit of 20 years that someone can serve on a board,? Flahavan
said.

Among those nearing the end of the service is Gainesville attorney Howard
Rosenblatt, who can serve for a maximum of two more years on the Alachua
County draft board. His motivation for serving 18 years already was his own
experience. He was drafted when he graduated from college but was granted a
deferment because he had accepted a teaching job in a school struggling
through integration.

?My perception of the draft board was not based on knowledge but on urban
legend,? Rosenblatt said. ?I thought it was a bunch of old military guys who
would want everybody to serve and be hesitant about giving deferments. I
volunteered because I felt it was important to have people on the board who
were open-minded and sensitive.?

Discussions about reinstituting the draft have come up periodically, but
have not amounted to anything during the past 25 years. It would require an
act of Congress and presidential approval to authorize a draft.
Anonymous
June 11, 2005 11:00:41 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.final-fantasy,alt.sports.football.pro.dallas-cowboys,alt.sports.basketball.nba.la-lakers,rec.sport.pro-wrestling,alt.politics (More info?)

"Freedom Fries" <bushwasresponsible@911.com> wrote in message
news:42ab6ced_2@x-privat.org...
> http://www.gainesville.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/2...
> 7/1078/news
>
> State's draft boards need 78 Floridians to fill posts
>
> By KAREN VOYLES
>
> Sun staff writer
> June 06. 2005 6:01AM
>
> Uncle Sam wants you and is willing to hold basic training time down to
> eight
> hours if you are willing to volunteer.
>
> What the federal government is looking for are at least 78 Floridians
> willing to serve on draft boards even though the nation has not had a
> draft
> for 25 years.

Thats OK, Jerry Jones hasnt had a draft in 10 years and he still has you
idiots drinking the Kool Aid.

BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
Anonymous
June 12, 2005 2:19:16 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.final-fantasy,alt.sports.football.pro.dallas-cowboys,alt.sports.basketball.nba.la-lakers,rec.sport.pro-wrestling,alt.politics (More info?)

"Discussions about reinstituting the draft have come up periodically, but
have not amounted to anything during the past 25 years. It would require an
act of Congress and presidential approval to authorize a draft."



^^^^
Most important passage. If, and that's a huge IF, the draft was employed, it
would be very selective based on critically undermanned career fields....not
the mass drafts during the Vietnam era.


"Freedom Fries" <bushwasresponsible@911.com> wrote in message
news:42ab6ced_2@x-privat.org...
> Amazing that well over half the country supported the war, which is over
> 100
> million people, yet the military can't get enough recruits. When are the
> warhawks actually going to back up their bullshit and enlist? They should
> draft the kids of the redumblicans, they won't of course though; what good
> will drafting them do anyway? They'd just dodge their service like GWB.
>
> http://www.gainesville.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/2...
> 7/1078/news
>
> State's draft boards need 78 Floridians to fill posts
>
> By KAREN VOYLES
>
> Sun staff writer
> June 06. 2005 6:01AM
>
> Uncle Sam wants you and is willing to hold basic training time down to
> eight
> hours if you are willing to volunteer.
>
> What the federal government is looking for are at least 78 Floridians
> willing to serve on draft boards even though the nation has not had a
> draft
> for 25 years.
>
> ?These local folks would decide cases that involve individuals who may be
> claiming a hardship, or that they are a conscientious objector, or
> ministerial student, or member of the clergy, or have some other reason
> why
> they believe they should not be drafted,? said Dick Flahavan, associate
> director of Public and Intergovernmental Affairs for the Selective Service
> System.
>
> The current system has been in place since 1980, standing by in case a
> draft
> is instituted. In Florida, the vacancies are scattered among the 91 draft
> boards. Some boards serve only one county, while other boards may serve up
> to five.
>
> Nationwide, all 2,000 local draft boards are made up of five citizen
> volunteers who have been nominated by their state's governor and appointed
> by the director of Selective Service in the name of the president.
>
> Board members must meet certain criteria, including being a U.S. citizen,
> at
> least 18 years old, not a retired or active member of the armed forces or
> any reserve component, a resident in the area in which the board has
> jurisdiction, and willing to spend enough time at the position.
>
> The time commitment is minimal during peacetime, Flahavan said. Following
> an
> initial eight hours of training, members are expected to participate in
> three-hour annual training sessions.
>
> However, the time commitment could increase significantly during a draft.
>
> According to the sequence of events listed on the agency's Web site, once
> potential draftees have undergone a physical, mental and moral evaluation
> by
> the military, they have 10 days to file a claim for exemption,
> postponement
> or deferment. Those claims are reviewed and decided by the local draft
> boards. The board has the authority to interview the draftee and people
> who
> know him before making their decision.
>
> ?We have vacancies all of the time because of normal attrition and because
> there is a limit of 20 years that someone can serve on a board,? Flahavan
> said.
>
> Among those nearing the end of the service is Gainesville attorney Howard
> Rosenblatt, who can serve for a maximum of two more years on the Alachua
> County draft board. His motivation for serving 18 years already was his
> own
> experience. He was drafted when he graduated from college but was granted
> a
> deferment because he had accepted a teaching job in a school struggling
> through integration.
>
> ?My perception of the draft board was not based on knowledge but on urban
> legend,? Rosenblatt said. ?I thought it was a bunch of old military guys
> who
> would want everybody to serve and be hesitant about giving deferments. I
> volunteered because I felt it was important to have people on the board
> who
> were open-minded and sensitive.?
>
> Discussions about reinstituting the draft have come up periodically, but
> have not amounted to anything during the past 25 years. It would require
> an
> act of Congress and presidential approval to authorize a draft.
>
>
>
Related resources
Anonymous
June 12, 2005 2:19:17 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.final-fantasy,alt.sports.football.pro.dallas-cowboys,alt.sports.basketball.nba.la-lakers,rec.sport.pro-wrestling,alt.politics (More info?)

"DHarris75" <dharris_75removethis@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:1WMqe.116311$J25.22940@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
> "Discussions about reinstituting the draft have come up periodically, but
> have not amounted to anything during the past 25 years. It would require
an
> act of Congress and presidential approval to authorize a draft."
>
yes, and our current congress doesn't EVER do what Bush says to do.
June 12, 2005 2:25:16 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.final-fantasy,alt.sports.football.pro.dallas-cowboys,alt.sports.basketball.nba.la-lakers,rec.sport.pro-wrestling,alt.politics (More info?)

On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 22:17:43 -0500, "the Bede"
<rspwsownthebede@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>"DHarris75" <dharris_75removethis@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>news:1WMqe.116311$J25.22940@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
>> "Discussions about reinstituting the draft have come up periodically, but
>> have not amounted to anything during the past 25 years. It would require
>an
>> act of Congress and presidential approval to authorize a draft."
>>
>yes, and our current congress doesn't EVER do what Bush says to do.

The entire nonsense of this thread revolves around a draft board in
Florida. Here's a newsflash for ya, it is still required that males
upon turning 18 register with the draft board. That has not and will
not ever change whether or not the draft is re-instated.

This being irrefutable FACT, OF COURSE there are people who must work
for the draft board. Someone has to sort through all those
registration cards, ya know. Only an alarmist takes such a story to
mean that a draft in inevitable.

NEWSFLASH....the draft board had employees while Clinton was Prez,
too. Nobody was accusing him of organizing a draft.
Anonymous
June 12, 2005 2:36:34 AM

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I know this. Douglas, venger and the rest of the hawks in
alt.sports.football.pro.dallas-cowboys would each fake high blood
pressure or malaria before they shipped out to Iraq to fight the war
they say I'm a terrorist for opposing.

Freedom Fries wrote:
> Amazing that well over half the country supported the war, which is over 100
> million people, yet the military can't get enough recruits. When are the
> warhawks actually going to back up their bullshit and enlist? They should
> draft the kids of the redumblicans, they won't of course though; what good
> will drafting them do anyway? They'd just dodge their service like GWB.
Anonymous
June 12, 2005 2:40:05 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.final-fantasy,alt.sports.football.pro.dallas-cowboys,alt.sports.basketball.nba.la-lakers,rec.sport.pro-wrestling,alt.politics (More info?)

Part of the article:

"Nationwide, all 2,000 local draft boards are made up of five citizen
volunteers who have been nominated by their state's governor and appointed
by the director of Selective Service in the name of the president."

Whose kids do you think will be inducted in states with GOP governors?
Who do you think they'll nominate to those boards? People who will go
out of their way to avoid inducting the likes of Jenna and Barbara.
Anonymous
June 12, 2005 3:15:47 AM

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Freedom Fries knelt and kissed my pinky ring before proclaiming

> Amazing that well over half the country supported the war, which is over 100
> million people, yet the military can't get enough recruits. When are the
> warhawks actually going to back up their bullshit and enlist? They should
> draft the kids of the redumblicans, they won't of course though; what good
> will drafting them do anyway? They'd just dodge their service like GWB.

Your inability to read an article is astounding. Must be that public
school education you have.

--
Pope GregoryD

Founder of Opus Hogan, Patriarch of the West Coast, Vicarius Fili
Hulkster, Successor of the Mouth, Primate and Archbishop of Venice Beach
Anonymous
June 12, 2005 8:05:58 AM

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"Pope GregoryD" <hagar@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:p an.2005.06.11.23.39.45.83002@hotmail.com...

> When are you going to read the article and realize what a moron both of
> you are?
>

So you know where the WMD's are? Why aren't you on a boat for Iraq?
Anonymous
June 12, 2005 8:07:33 AM

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"JustForFun" <justforfun69@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:qoana19eie11fv8o3ksqtl7fve7fdq83fc@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 22:17:43 -0500, "the Bede"
> <rspwsownthebede@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"DHarris75" <dharris_75removethis@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>>news:1WMqe.116311$J25.22940@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
>>> "Discussions about reinstituting the draft have come up periodically,
>>> but
>>> have not amounted to anything during the past 25 years. It would require
>>an
>>> act of Congress and presidential approval to authorize a draft."
>>>
>>yes, and our current congress doesn't EVER do what Bush says to do.
>
> The entire nonsense of this thread revolves around a draft board in
> Florida. Here's a newsflash for ya, it is still required that males
> upon turning 18 register with the draft board. That has not and will
> not ever change whether or not the draft is re-instated.
>
> This being irrefutable FACT, OF COURSE there are people who must work
> for the draft board. Someone has to sort through all those
> registration cards, ya know. Only an alarmist takes such a story to
> mean that a draft in inevitable.
>
> NEWSFLASH....the draft board had employees while Clinton was Prez,
> too. Nobody was accusing him of organizing a draft.


Clinton didn't start a war based on false pretense either. Perhaps that is
the difference that warrants concern.
Anonymous
June 12, 2005 8:09:17 AM

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"calaf" <calaf@calaf.com> wrote in message
news:b5Oqe.29261$iU.22580@lakeread05...
>I know this. Douglas, venger and the rest of the hawks in
>alt.sports.football.pro.dallas-cowboys would each fake high blood pressure
>or malaria before they shipped out to Iraq to fight the war they say I'm a
>terrorist for opposing.
>

amen.
Anonymous
June 12, 2005 8:16:16 AM

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"calaf" <calaf@calaf.com> wrote in message
news:u8Oqe.29262$iU.11872@lakeread05...

> Who do you think they'll nominate to those boards? People who will go
> out of their way to avoid inducting the likes of Jenna and Barbara.

Women don't have to register for the selective service.
Anonymous
June 12, 2005 5:05:50 PM

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"Chance Hopkins" <chance_hopkins@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9yOqe.176$983.41782@monger.newsread.com...
>
>
>> NEWSFLASH....the draft board had employees while Clinton was Prez,
>> too. Nobody was accusing him of organizing a draft.
>
>
> Clinton didn't start a war based on false pretense either. Perhaps that is
> the difference that warrants concern.

The most infamous lefty meme rears it's head again... conveniently ignoring
that President Clinton was out front in supporting action against Iraq. Why?
Cause he had seen the SAME things in briefings that Bush did. And you know
what? The OTHER Clinton supported it too. Was she organizing a draft?

The pretense was not wrong - Saddam was a known regional bad actor and enemy
of the United States, had numerous weapons programs, had used them against
his neighbors and his own people, with ties to regional terror, and the
regime most likely to be in a position to put them in the hands of
terrorists. All of those facts continue to be true to this day, and would be
true with Saddam still in power. What was incorrect was our assumption that
he currently had either a stockpile or notable production capacity. If you
think that honestly changes the equation, then you are trusting to the
intentions of a murdering madman.

Everyone in the Congress who voted for the resolution authorizing the war in
Iraq had access to the very same intelligence that the Bush Administration
did. As did Tony Blair. Is he also organizing a draft?

Venger
Anonymous
June 12, 2005 5:05:51 PM

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Venger wrote:
> "Chance Hopkins" <chance_hopkins@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:9yOqe.176$983.41782@monger.newsread.com...
>>
>>
>>> NEWSFLASH....the draft board had employees while Clinton was Prez,
>>> too. Nobody was accusing him of organizing a draft.
>>
>>
>> Clinton didn't start a war based on false pretense either. Perhaps
>> that is the difference that warrants concern.
>
> The most infamous lefty meme rears it's head again... conveniently
> ignoring that President Clinton was out front in supporting action
> against Iraq. Why? Cause he had seen the SAME things in briefings
> that Bush did.

And he had excusses for his illegal war too...
.. And what response did he get for his very meassured response to that Iraq
intellegence? Wag the dog... something tells me he would have again listened
to the UN inspecters and others on the ground instead of installing an
invasion force on the border.


>And you know what? The OTHER Clinton supported it too.
> Was she organizing a draft?

A campaign. Would not want to piss of the saudis. money talks in washington
and the most money is thrown around by the house of suad. Clinton had his
share too. Not as blantantly as bush.


>
> Everyone in the Congress who voted for the resolution authorizing the
> war in Iraq had access to the very same intelligence that the Bush
> Administration did.

The had the part he sent and sold to them including known fake documents.
Even representitive 'freedom fries' now says they were lied to.

>As did Tony Blair. Is he also organizing a draft?

an exit...


--
Laurel T
"The lives of cadis, scholars, shaykhs, Alids,
and Nestorian priests, and persons who do not
combat against us are safe from us."
Hulagu Khan's arrow message at the sack of Baghdad
Anonymous
June 12, 2005 5:45:23 PM

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Hi 'U Are With Us Or Against Us'.



Still a liEberal-biased nymshifting anonymous pussy, eh?
Anonymous
June 12, 2005 6:00:59 PM

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Pope TardSmack I, the only REAL Pope of RSPW (all others are FAKES)
wrote:
> Hi 'U Are With Us Or Against Us'.
>

"All who surrender will be spared;
whoever does not surrender but
opposes with struggle and dissension,
shall be annihilated." --Chingis Khan
Anonymous
June 12, 2005 6:04:25 PM

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On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 13:05:50 GMT, "Venger" <venger@augustmail.com>
wrote:

>
>"Chance Hopkins" <chance_hopkins@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:9yOqe.176$983.41782@monger.newsread.com...
>>
>>
>>> NEWSFLASH....the draft board had employees while Clinton was Prez,
>>> too. Nobody was accusing him of organizing a draft.
>>
>>
>> Clinton didn't start a war based on false pretense either. Perhaps that is
>> the difference that warrants concern.
>
>The most infamous lefty meme rears it's head again... conveniently ignoring
>that President Clinton was out front in supporting action against Iraq. Why?
>Cause he had seen the SAME things in briefings that Bush did. And you know
>what? The OTHER Clinton supported it too. Was she organizing a draft?

Let me help you here with a new perspective. Clinton was for NAFTA.
Democrats generally weren't. Democrats don't march in lock step like
the Republicans. Clinton ignored the Democratic base more than any
President I can remember. He had a few BS issues, but he generally
governed like a moderate Republican.

Besides, Republicans would have HOWLED about Iraq if Clinton brought
up knocking Saddam off. Not only would we have heard about quagmires,
smaller government, the expense of it and all the other criticisms
that Democrats have made, they'd have personally attacked Clinton for
dodging the draft.

Finally, since when did Clinton's opinion become a source of support
for what you believe?
Anonymous
June 12, 2005 6:27:56 PM

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On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 13:05:50 GMT, "Venger" <venger@augustmail.com>
wrote:

>
>"Chance Hopkins" <chance_hopkins@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:9yOqe.176$983.41782@monger.newsread.com...
>>
>>
>>> NEWSFLASH....the draft board had employees while Clinton was Prez,
>>> too. Nobody was accusing him of organizing a draft.
>>
>>
>> Clinton didn't start a war based on false pretense either. Perhaps that is
>> the difference that warrants concern.
>
>The most infamous lefty meme rears it's head again... conveniently ignoring
>that President Clinton was out front in supporting action against Iraq. Why?

What kind of action?

Rob
ploovTeHSPaeMBLoKuR@charter.net

--

Owner of 2501 Netstalker Points awarded by Corwin of Amber, mainly
because Atma's just too damn attractive to get away from.

Gave 7499 Netstalker Points to Cypher because there's no such thing as
a good day on AGFF without JT bashing!

Owner of David Watson, rec.arts.anime.misc

"'I'm glad you're having fun, but I cannot join you for there is work
to be done. My dwarven hunter in World of Warcraft is only level 12!
I need to be level 60 come winter, and if you were wise you'd come in
from your silly playtime and do the same.'"
--Corin Tucker's Stalker, The Ant and The Grasshopper
(Something Awful June 11)
Anonymous
June 12, 2005 6:32:08 PM

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"Rob Browning" <pluvius3@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:tkvoa1tbg0ckdj5mh6ulc9nbqa9s3fnlmb@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 13:05:50 GMT, "Venger" <venger@augustmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Chance Hopkins" <chance_hopkins@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:9yOqe.176$983.41782@monger.newsread.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>> NEWSFLASH....the draft board had employees while Clinton was Prez,
>>>> too. Nobody was accusing him of organizing a draft.
>>>
>>>
>>> Clinton didn't start a war based on false pretense either. Perhaps that
>>> is
>>> the difference that warrants concern.
>>
>>The most infamous lefty meme rears it's head again... conveniently
>>ignoring
>>that President Clinton was out front in supporting action against Iraq.
>>Why?
>
> What kind of action?

We've been in Iraq for over a decade. I'd watch A-10s go wheels up loaded
and come back empty.

>
> Rob
> ploovTeHSPaeMBLoKuR@charter.net
>
> --
>
> Owner of 2501 Netstalker Points awarded by Corwin of Amber, mainly
> because Atma's just too damn attractive to get away from.
>
> Gave 7499 Netstalker Points to Cypher because there's no such thing as
> a good day on AGFF without JT bashing!
>
> Owner of David Watson, rec.arts.anime.misc
>
> "'I'm glad you're having fun, but I cannot join you for there is work
> to be done. My dwarven hunter in World of Warcraft is only level 12!
> I need to be level 60 come winter, and if you were wise you'd come in
> from your silly playtime and do the same.'"
> --Corin Tucker's Stalker, The Ant and The Grasshopper
> (Something Awful June 11)
Anonymous
June 12, 2005 7:37:15 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.final-fantasy,alt.sports.football.pro.dallas-cowboys,alt.sports.basketball.nba.la-lakers,rec.sport.pro-wrestling,alt.politics (More info?)

"Freedom Fries" <bushwasresponsible@911.com> wrote in
news:42ab6ced_2@x-privat.org:

> Amazing that well over half the country supported the war, which is
> over 100 million people, yet the military can't get enough recruits.
> When are the warhawks actually going to back up their bullshit and
> enlist? They should draft the kids of the redumblicans, they won't of
> course though; what good will drafting them do anyway? They'd just
> dodge their service like GWB.
>
a moment of honesty. if those who 'supported the war' had been told that
they would have to serve - or their service age children would - do you
think they would have still supported the war? look at our very viker
(where is he anyway?). if he had to get off his ass and go to iraq, he
would never have uttered word one about mass graves or the 'evil' saddam.
Anonymous
June 12, 2005 7:37:16 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.final-fantasy,alt.sports.football.pro.dallas-cowboys,alt.sports.basketball.nba.la-lakers,rec.sport.pro-wrestling,alt.politics (More info?)

Jack Straw wrote:
> "Freedom Fries" <bushwasresponsible@911.com> wrote in
> news:42ab6ced_2@x-privat.org:
>
>> Amazing that well over half the country supported the war, which is
>> over 100 million people, yet the military can't get enough recruits.
>> When are the warhawks actually going to back up their bullshit and
>> enlist? They should draft the kids of the redumblicans, they won't of
>> course though; what good will drafting them do anyway? They'd just
>> dodge their service like GWB.
>>
> a moment of honesty. if those who 'supported the war' had been told
> that they would have to serve - or their service age children would -
> do you think they would have still supported the war? look at our
> very viker (where is he anyway?).

First he voted himself off the island and then he said he could not overcome
aol dropping usenet...


--
Laurel T
When rats leave a sinking ship,
where exactly do they think they're going?"
- Douglas Gauck
Anonymous
June 12, 2005 7:37:51 PM

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"DHarris75" <dharris_75removethis@bellsouth.net> wrote in
news:1WMqe.116311$J25.22940@bignews6.bellsouth.net:

> "Discussions about reinstituting the draft have come up periodically,
> but have not amounted to anything during the past 25 years. It would
> require an act of Congress and presidential approval to authorize a
> draft."
>
and since it would be political suicide, it will never happen.
Anonymous
June 12, 2005 7:39:25 PM

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Jack Straw <jackstraw@wichita.edu> wrote in
news:Xns967376344AFEDjackstrawwichitaedu@130.133.1.4:

> "Freedom Fries" <bushwasresponsible@911.com> wrote in
> news:42ab6ced_2@x-privat.org:
>
>> Amazing that well over half the country supported the war, which is
>> over 100 million people, yet the military can't get enough recruits.
>> When are the warhawks actually going to back up their bullshit and
>> enlist? They should draft the kids of the redumblicans, they won't of
>> course though; what good will drafting them do anyway? They'd just
>> dodge their service like GWB.
>>
> a moment of honesty. if those who 'supported the war' had been told that
> they would have to serve - or their service age children would - do you
> think they would have still supported the war? look at our very viker
> (where is he anyway?). if he had to get off his ass and go to iraq, he
> would never have uttered word one about mass graves or the 'evil' saddam.
>

let me add though that i can envision a substitute for a draft. perhaps
forcing people in debt to serve to pay off their debts? instead of sending
them to debtors prison. or simply forcing convicted felons to serve instead
of sending them to jail? i would not be surprised at all.
Anonymous
June 12, 2005 7:44:19 PM

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JustForFun <justforfun69@bellsouth.net> wrote in
news:qoana19eie11fv8o3ksqtl7fve7fdq83fc@4ax.com:

> On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 22:17:43 -0500, "the Bede"
> <rspwsownthebede@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"DHarris75" <dharris_75removethis@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>>news:1WMqe.116311$J25.22940@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
>>> "Discussions about reinstituting the draft have come up
>>> periodically, but have not amounted to anything during the past 25
>>> years. It would require
>>an
>>> act of Congress and presidential approval to authorize a draft."
>>>
>>yes, and our current congress doesn't EVER do what Bush says to do.
>
> The entire nonsense of this thread revolves around a draft board in
> Florida. Here's a newsflash for ya, it is still required that males
> upon turning 18 register with the draft board. That has not and will
> not ever change whether or not the draft is re-instated.
>
you betray your youth. when i was 18 there was no requirement to register
at all. that was abolished in 1973 when the ended the draft. it was
reinstituted in 1982(?) by ronnie raygun.

> This being irrefutable FACT, OF COURSE there are people who must work
> for the draft board. Someone has to sort through all those
> registration cards, ya know. Only an alarmist takes such a story to
> mean that a draft in inevitable.
>
> NEWSFLASH....the draft board had employees while Clinton was Prez,
> too. Nobody was accusing him of organizing a draft.
>
perhaps not. but lots of righties were calling for a draft in order to
stop clinton's military adventurism in kosovo and bosnia. funny that.
Anonymous
June 12, 2005 7:45:01 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.final-fantasy,alt.sports.football.pro.dallas-cowboys,alt.sports.basketball.nba.la-lakers,rec.sport.pro-wrestling,alt.politics (More info?)

"Chance Hopkins" <chance_hopkins@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:9yOqe.176$983.41782@monger.newsread.com:

>
> "JustForFun" <justforfun69@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:qoana19eie11fv8o3ksqtl7fve7fdq83fc@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 22:17:43 -0500, "the Bede"
>> <rspwsownthebede@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"DHarris75" <dharris_75removethis@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>>>news:1WMqe.116311$J25.22940@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
>>>> "Discussions about reinstituting the draft have come up
>>>> periodically, but
>>>> have not amounted to anything during the past 25 years. It would
>>>> require
>>>an
>>>> act of Congress and presidential approval to authorize a draft."
>>>>
>>>yes, and our current congress doesn't EVER do what Bush says to do.
>>
>> The entire nonsense of this thread revolves around a draft board in
>> Florida. Here's a newsflash for ya, it is still required that males
>> upon turning 18 register with the draft board. That has not and will
>> not ever change whether or not the draft is re-instated.
>>
>> This being irrefutable FACT, OF COURSE there are people who must work
>> for the draft board. Someone has to sort through all those
>> registration cards, ya know. Only an alarmist takes such a story to
>> mean that a draft in inevitable.
>>
>> NEWSFLASH....the draft board had employees while Clinton was Prez,
>> too. Nobody was accusing him of organizing a draft.
>
>
> Clinton didn't start a war based on false pretense either. Perhaps
> that is the difference that warrants concern.
>
>
>
>

your statement may be true but bushies will retort with kosovo and
bosnia. or that 'aspirin factory' in sudan.
Anonymous
June 12, 2005 11:15:04 PM

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On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 04:07:33 GMT, "Chance Hopkins"
<chance_hopkins@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>"JustForFun" <justforfun69@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>news:qoana19eie11fv8o3ksqtl7fve7fdq83fc@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 22:17:43 -0500, "the Bede"
>> <rspwsownthebede@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"DHarris75" <dharris_75removethis@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>>>news:1WMqe.116311$J25.22940@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
>>>> "Discussions about reinstituting the draft have come up periodically,
>>>> but
>>>> have not amounted to anything during the past 25 years. It would require
>>>an
>>>> act of Congress and presidential approval to authorize a draft."
>>>>
>>>yes, and our current congress doesn't EVER do what Bush says to do.
>>
>> The entire nonsense of this thread revolves around a draft board in
>> Florida. Here's a newsflash for ya, it is still required that males
>> upon turning 18 register with the draft board. That has not and will
>> not ever change whether or not the draft is re-instated.
>>
>> This being irrefutable FACT, OF COURSE there are people who must work
>> for the draft board. Someone has to sort through all those
>> registration cards, ya know. Only an alarmist takes such a story to
>> mean that a draft in inevitable.
>>
>> NEWSFLASH....the draft board had employees while Clinton was Prez,
>> too. Nobody was accusing him of organizing a draft.
>
>
>Clinton didn't start a war based on false pretense either. Perhaps that is
>the difference that warrants concern.
>


* * *

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/06/18/russia.warni...

Russia warned U.S. about Saddam
Friday, June 18, 2004 Posted: 12:46 PM EDT (1646 GMT)

MOSCOW, Russia (CNN) -- Russian intelligence services warned
Washington several times that Saddam Hussein's regime planned
terrorist attacks against the United States, President Vladimir Putin
has said.

The warnings were provided after September 11, 2001 and before the
start of the Iraqi war, Putin said Friday.

The planned attacks were targeted both inside and outside the United
States, said Putin, who made the remarks during a visit to Kazakhstan.
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 2:37:32 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.final-fantasy,alt.sports.football.pro.dallas-cowboys,alt.sports.basketball.nba.la-lakers,rec.sport.pro-wrestling,alt.politics (More info?)

On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 14:32:08 -0400, "DHarris75"
<dharris_75removethis@bellsouth.net> wrote:

>
>"Rob Browning" <pluvius3@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:tkvoa1tbg0ckdj5mh6ulc9nbqa9s3fnlmb@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 13:05:50 GMT, "Venger" <venger@augustmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Chance Hopkins" <chance_hopkins@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>news:9yOqe.176$983.41782@monger.newsread.com...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> NEWSFLASH....the draft board had employees while Clinton was Prez,
>>>>> too. Nobody was accusing him of organizing a draft.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Clinton didn't start a war based on false pretense either. Perhaps that
>>>> is
>>>> the difference that warrants concern.
>>>
>>>The most infamous lefty meme rears it's head again... conveniently
>>>ignoring
>>>that President Clinton was out front in supporting action against Iraq.
>>>Why?
>>
>> What kind of action?
>
>We've been in Iraq for over a decade. I'd watch A-10s go wheels up loaded
>and come back empty.

Oh, you mean surgical strikes and enforcing the no-fly zone and such?
Kind of different from a full-scale invasion, innit?

Rob
ploovTeHSPaeMBLoKuR@charter.net

--

Owner of 2501 Netstalker Points awarded by Corwin of Amber, mainly
because Atma's just too damn attractive to get away from.

Gave 7499 Netstalker Points to Cypher because there's no such thing as
a good day on AGFF without JT bashing!

Owner of David Watson, rec.arts.anime.misc

"'I'm glad you're having fun, but I cannot join you for there is work
to be done. My dwarven hunter in World of Warcraft is only level 12!
I need to be level 60 come winter, and if you were wise you'd come in
from your silly playtime and do the same.'"
--Corin Tucker's Stalker, The Ant and The Grasshopper
(Something Awful June 11)
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 3:14:35 AM

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"Venger" <venger@augustmail.com> wrote in message
news:4y8re.355$ks4.320@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
>
>
> Which is the most cockamamy notion of all. There are innumerable good
> reasons for opposing the war in Iraq. That, however, is not one of them.
> PLEASE show a DIRECT financial interest for anyone at the cabinet level or
> higher arising from invading Iraq. And if you bring Halliburton to the
> table, I will shoot you down like the dog you are.
>

OK, Venger, shoot me if you must, but please also explain to me how the
company that the current VP was in charge of, which pays him millions in
"deferred salary" during his stint as VP, & which will undoubtedly re-hire
him after his term is over should be excluded from any discussion of direct
financial interest for anyone at the cabinet level or higher. Don't gloss
over the billions they are pulling in nor leave out the continual & varied
frauds they commit with minimal, if any, penalties.

Go Blazers !
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 3:48:34 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.final-fantasy,alt.sports.football.pro.dallas-cowboys,alt.sports.basketball.nba.la-lakers,rec.sport.pro-wrestling,alt.politics (More info?)

On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 04:07:33 GMT, "Chance Hopkins"
<chance_hopkins@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>"JustForFun" <justforfun69@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>news:qoana19eie11fv8o3ksqtl7fve7fdq83fc@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 22:17:43 -0500, "the Bede"
>> <rspwsownthebede@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"DHarris75" <dharris_75removethis@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>>>news:1WMqe.116311$J25.22940@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
>>>> "Discussions about reinstituting the draft have come up periodically,
>>>> but
>>>> have not amounted to anything during the past 25 years. It would require
>>>an
>>>> act of Congress and presidential approval to authorize a draft."
>>>>
>>>yes, and our current congress doesn't EVER do what Bush says to do.
>>
>> The entire nonsense of this thread revolves around a draft board in
>> Florida. Here's a newsflash for ya, it is still required that males
>> upon turning 18 register with the draft board. That has not and will
>> not ever change whether or not the draft is re-instated.
>>
>> This being irrefutable FACT, OF COURSE there are people who must work
>> for the draft board. Someone has to sort through all those
>> registration cards, ya know. Only an alarmist takes such a story to
>> mean that a draft in inevitable.
>>
>> NEWSFLASH....the draft board had employees while Clinton was Prez,
>> too. Nobody was accusing him of organizing a draft.
>
>
>Clinton didn't start a war based on false pretense either. Perhaps that is
>the difference that warrants concern.

If Clinton had had the balls to start a war on terrorism we would
never have had 9/11 and Ben Laden would have been pushing up poppies
long, long ago...
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 5:43:13 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.final-fantasy,alt.sports.football.pro.dallas-cowboys,alt.sports.basketball.nba.la-lakers,rec.sport.pro-wrestling,alt.politics (More info?)

Chance Hopkins knelt and kissed my pinky ring before proclaiming

>
> "Pope GregoryD" <hagar@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:p an.2005.06.11.23.39.45.83002@hotmail.com...
>
>> When are you going to read the article and realize what a moron both of
>> you are?
>>
>
> So you know where the WMD's are? Why aren't you on a boat for Iraq?

When did I EVER post in this thread about my political leanings?

I simply posted that the originating poster either didn't or couldn't
understand the article, much like I suspect you didn't or can't.

The article is about the need to replenish draft boards which have been
around for decades because the people who currently fill the positions are
reaching the maximum length of their tenures on the boards.

So which is it? Are you ignorant or illiterate?

--
Pope GregoryD

Founder of Opus Hogan, Patriarch of the West Coast, Vicarius Fili
Hulkster, Successor of the Mouth, Primate and Archbishop of Venice Beach
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 6:13:53 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.final-fantasy,alt.sports.football.pro.dallas-cowboys,alt.sports.basketball.nba.la-lakers,rec.sport.pro-wrestling,alt.politics (More info?)

While I am sorry your life has been ruined by war-hawks who deploy you,
I'm not going to let bullshit like this go unanswered.

The president you support has acknowledged Saddam had NO ABILITY to
follow through with his convictions as of the time we went to war. And
the war for Bush was about separating Saddam from WMDs that Bush was
absolutely sure (and that I was reasonably sure) he had. He didn't.

Meanwhile there are many many many more dictators with not just the
desire but the ABILITY to go after their desires. North Korea. Iran.
Syria. Uzbekistan. Colombia's FARC enclave. China. Russia. The
Sudan where a genocide is STILL going on last I looked.

But are we in those places? And could we mount a mission now even if we
wanted to or HAD to? An emphatic no. And only because of what Bush has
done to the military, to YOU, to YOUR family. I could oppose him and
his party the rest of my life for those reasons alone.

DHarris75 wrote:

> This was not a madman w/out the conviction...he had the ability and desire
> to follow through with his convictions.
>
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 6:16:17 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.final-fantasy,alt.sports.football.pro.dallas-cowboys,alt.sports.basketball.nba.la-lakers,rec.sport.pro-wrestling,alt.politics (More info?)

Again, venger, a reminder. I'll be glad to phone any recruitment office
of your choosing in your area and make an appointment for you to talk to
them.

Venger wrote:

> It ain't said enough DH - you're a credit to the service and to the nation
> you serve.
>
> Venger
> P.S. And you're a Cowboy fan to boot... it's all good.
>
>
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 6:18:51 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.final-fantasy,alt.sports.football.pro.dallas-cowboys,alt.sports.basketball.nba.la-lakers,rec.sport.pro-wrestling,alt.politics (More info?)

Simple. Venger trusts Cheney to be pure of heart. Never mind the
hundreds of millions he'll be collecting at noon Jan 20, 2007. Venger
trusts Cheney more than he trusts you or I, regardless of how much
evidence we may cite. That's just how he's made.

Swillabrew wrote:

> OK, Venger, shoot me if you must, but please also explain to me how the
> company that the current VP was in charge of, which pays him millions in
> "deferred salary" during his stint as VP, & which will undoubtedly re-hire
> him after his term is over should be excluded from any discussion of direct
> financial interest for anyone at the cabinet level or higher. Don't gloss
> over the billions they are pulling in nor leave out the continual & varied
> frauds they commit with minimal, if any, penalties.
>
> Go Blazers !
>
>
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 6:20:12 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.final-fantasy,alt.sports.football.pro.dallas-cowboys,alt.sports.basketball.nba.la-lakers,rec.sport.pro-wrestling,alt.politics (More info?)

I guess I should have said the rich boyfriends of Jenna and Barbara then.

Justin Pate wrote:

> "calaf" <calaf@calaf.com> wrote in message
> news:u8Oqe.29262$iU.11872@lakeread05...
>
>
>>Who do you think they'll nominate to those boards? People who will go
>>out of their way to avoid inducting the likes of Jenna and Barbara.
>
>
> Women don't have to register for the selective service.
>
>
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 8:08:03 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.final-fantasy,alt.sports.football.pro.dallas-cowboys,alt.sports.basketball.nba.la-lakers,rec.sport.pro-wrestling,alt.politics (More info?)

"Rob Browning" <pluvius3@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:tkvoa1tbg0ckdj5mh6ulc9nbqa9s3fnlmb@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 13:05:50 GMT, "Venger" <venger@augustmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Chance Hopkins" <chance_hopkins@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:9yOqe.176$983.41782@monger.newsread.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>> NEWSFLASH....the draft board had employees while Clinton was Prez,
>>>> too. Nobody was accusing him of organizing a draft.
>>>
>>>
>>> Clinton didn't start a war based on false pretense either. Perhaps that
>>> is
>>> the difference that warrants concern.
>>
>>The most infamous lefty meme rears it's head again... conveniently
>>ignoring
>>that President Clinton was out front in supporting action against Iraq.
>>Why?
>
> What kind of action?

Not only making regime change official US policy in 1998, but also lauching
an enormous missile strike on Iraq in 1998. He also came out in support of
the US action to remove Saddam in 2003. He's been right, consistently, on
Iraq.

Venger
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 8:24:34 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.final-fantasy,alt.sports.football.pro.dallas-cowboys,alt.sports.basketball.nba.la-lakers,rec.sport.pro-wrestling,alt.politics (More info?)

"Jack Straw" <jackstraw@wichita.edu> wrote in message
news:Xns9673778579A4Ejackstrawwichitaedu@130.133.1.4...
> "Chance Hopkins" <chance_hopkins@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:9yOqe.176$983.41782@monger.newsread.com:
>
>>> NEWSFLASH....the draft board had employees while Clinton was Prez,
>>> too. Nobody was accusing him of organizing a draft.
>>
>>
>> Clinton didn't start a war based on false pretense either. Perhaps
>> that is the difference that warrants concern.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> your statement may be true but bushies will retort with kosovo and
> bosnia. or that 'aspirin factory' in sudan.

Well, allow me to retort not with Kosovo or Bosnia, which I supported, but
with Clinton's signing of the 1998 Iraq Liberation Act, his December 1998
missile strike against Iraq, and his support of Operation Iraqi Freedom.
Doesn't get much more straightforward than that.

Venger
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 9:51:06 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.final-fantasy,alt.sports.football.pro.dallas-cowboys,alt.sports.basketball.nba.la-lakers,rec.sport.pro-wrestling,alt.politics (More info?)

"Swillabrew" <don'tspam@any.net> wrote in message
news:J-SdnV6xWZPbuTDfRVn-2A@scnresearch.com...
> "Venger" <venger@augustmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4y8re.355$ks4.320@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
>>
>>
>> Which is the most cockamamy notion of all. There are innumerable good
>> reasons for opposing the war in Iraq. That, however, is not one of them.
>> PLEASE show a DIRECT financial interest for anyone at the cabinet level
>> or higher arising from invading Iraq. And if you bring Halliburton to the
>> table, I will shoot you down like the dog you are.
>>
>
> OK, Venger, shoot me if you must, but please also explain to me how the
> company that the current VP was in charge of, which pays him millions in
> "deferred salary" during his stint as VP, & which will undoubtedly re-hire
> him after his term is over should be excluded from any discussion of
> direct financial interest for anyone at the cabinet level or higher.
> Don't gloss over the billions they are pulling in nor leave out the
> continual & varied frauds they commit with minimal, if any, penalties.

Bingo, we went to war to benefit a private company. Watch out Switzerland,
Kraft wants your cheese!

>
> Go Blazers !
>
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 5:56:10 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.final-fantasy,alt.sports.football.pro.dallas-cowboys,alt.sports.basketball.nba.la-lakers,rec.sport.pro-wrestling,alt.politics (More info?)

On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 04:08:03 GMT, "Venger" <venger@augustmail.com>
wrote:

>
>"Rob Browning" <pluvius3@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:tkvoa1tbg0ckdj5mh6ulc9nbqa9s3fnlmb@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 13:05:50 GMT, "Venger" <venger@augustmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Chance Hopkins" <chance_hopkins@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>news:9yOqe.176$983.41782@monger.newsread.com...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> NEWSFLASH....the draft board had employees while Clinton was Prez,
>>>>> too. Nobody was accusing him of organizing a draft.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Clinton didn't start a war based on false pretense either. Perhaps that
>>>> is
>>>> the difference that warrants concern.
>>>
>>>The most infamous lefty meme rears it's head again... conveniently
>>>ignoring
>>>that President Clinton was out front in supporting action against Iraq.
>>>Why?
>>
>> What kind of action?
>
>Not only making regime change official US policy in 1998, but also lauching
>an enormous missile strike on Iraq in 1998. He also came out in support of
>the US action to remove Saddam in 2003. He's been right, consistently, on
>Iraq.
>
>Venger

He's been wrong on Iraq, but he likes to play politics. That's all it
is. Just strong on defense posturing for Hillary's sake. Spill some
other Americans' blood to look tough.
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 6:06:36 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.final-fantasy,alt.sports.football.pro.dallas-cowboys,alt.sports.basketball.nba.la-lakers,rec.sport.pro-wrestling,alt.politics (More info?)

On Mon, 13 Jvn 2005 05:09:20 GMT, "Venger" <venger@avgvstmail.com>
wrote:

>
>"John Henry" <jhd@NOSPAMinsvrgent.orgNOSPAM> wrote in message
>news:Xns9673C4850CD79johnhenrylowgenivsco@216.168.3.44...
>> "DHarris75" <dharris_75removethis@bellsovth.net> wrote in
>> news:o W_qe.117465$J25.65932@bignews6.bellsovth.net:
>>
>>> So what...he had been
>>> involved w/ terrorism of his own covntry for years and years. All
>>> vnder ovr noses...while we spent Billions ARMING him.
>>
>> That's fixed.
>
>No it's not, yov leftist fvck. We NEVER spent to arm him, dipshit, his
>covntry is AWASH in oil money. I mean do yov ever have a thovght go throvgh
>that pile of detritvs yov call a brain that originates within it, or do yov
>sort of acqvire cvt-n-paste thovghts and argvments by contagion?
>

Does it matter how mvch was spent? If yov give a mvrderer a Satvrday
Night Special for $20 or an expensive shotgvn?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A52241-2002Dec...

U.S. Had Key Role in Iraq Bvildvp
Trade in Chemical Arms Allowed Despite Their Use on Iranians, Kvrds

By Michael Dobbs
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, December 30, 2002; Page A01

High on the Bvsh administration's list of jvstifications for war
against Iraq are President Saddam Hvssein's vse of chemical weapons,
nvclear and biological programs, and his contacts with international
terrorists. What U.S. officials rarely acknowledge is that these
offenses date back to a period when Hvssein was seen in Washington as
a valved ally.

Among the people instrvmental in tilting U.S. policy toward Baghdad
dvring the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war was Donald H. Rvmsfeld, now defense
secretary, whose December 1983 meeting with Hvssein as a special
presidential envoy paved the way for normalization of U.S.-Iraqi
relations. Declassified docvments show that Rvmsfeld traveled to
Baghdad at a time when Iraq was vsing chemical weapons on an "almost
daily" basis in defiance of international conventions.


In the Kvrdish village of Halabjah in northern Iraq on March 20, 1988,
a father holds his baby. Both were believed killed by an Iraqi
chemical attack. (File Photo/iranian News Agency Via AFP)

The story of U.S. involvement with Saddam Hvssein in the years before
his 1990 attack on Kvwait -- which inclvded large-scale intelligence
sharing, svpply of clvster bombs throvgh a Chilean front company, and
facilitating Iraq's acqvisition of chemical and biological precvrsors
-- is a topical example of the vnderside of U.S. foreign policy. It is
a world in which deals can be strvck with dictators, hvman rights
violations sometimes overlooked, and accommodations made with arms
proliferators, all on the principle that the "enemy of my enemy is my
friend."

Throvghovt the 1980s, Hvssein's Iraq was the sworn enemy of Iran, then
still in the throes of an Islamic revolvtion. U.S. officials saw
Baghdad as a bvlwark against militant Shiite extremism and the fall of
pro-American states svch as Kvwait, Savdi Arabia, and even Jordan -- a
Middle East version of the "domino theory" in Sovtheast Asia. That was
enovgh to tvrn Hvssein into a strategic partner and for U.S. diplomats
in Baghdad to rovtinely refer to Iraqi forces as "the good gvys," in
contrast to the Iranians, who were depicted as "the bad gvys."

A review of thovsands of declassified government docvments and
interviews with former policymakers shows that U.S. intelligence and
logistical svpport played a crvcial role in shoring vp Iraqi defenses
against the "hvman wave" attacks by svicidal Iranian troops. The
administrations of Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bvsh avthorized the
sale to Iraq of nvmerovs items that had both military and civilian
applications, inclvding poisonovs chemicals and deadly biological
virvses, svch as anthrax and bvbonic plagve.

Opinions differ among Middle East experts and former government
officials abovt the pre-Iraqi tilt, and whether Washington covld have
done more to stop the flow to Baghdad of technology for bvilding
weapons of mass destrvction.

"It was a horrible mistake then, bvt we have got it right now," says
Kenneth M. Pollack, a former CIA military analyst and avthor of "The
Threatening Storm," which makes the case for war with Iraq. "My fellow
[CIA] analysts and I were warning at the time that Hvssein was a very
nasty character. We were constantly fighting the State Department."

"Fvndamentally, the policy was jvstified," argves David Newton, a
former U.S. ambassador to Baghdad, who rvns an anti-Hvssein radio
station in Pragve. "We were concerned that Iraq shovld not lose the
war with Iran, becavse that wovld have threatened Savdi Arabia and the
Gvlf. Ovr long-term hope was that Hvssein's government wovld become
less repressive and more responsible."

What makes present-day Hvssein different from the Hvssein of the
1980s, say Middle East experts, is the mellowing of the Iranian
revolvtion and the Avgvst 1990 invasion of Kvwait that transformed the
Iraqi dictator, almost overnight, from awkward ally into mortal enemy.
In addition, the United States itself has changed. As a resvlt of the
Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on New York and Washington, U.S.
policymakers take a mvch more alarmist view of the threat posed by the
proliferation of weapons of mass destrvction.

U.S. Shifts in Iran-Iraq War

When the Iran-Iraq war began in September 1980, with an Iraqi attack
across the Shatt al Arab waterway that leads to the Persian Gvlf, the
United States was a bystander. The United States did not have
diplomatic relations with either Baghdad or Tehran. U.S. officials had
almost as little sympathy for Hvssein's dictatorial brand of Arab
nationalism as for the Islamic fvndamentalism espovsed by Iran's
Ayatollah Rvhollah Khomeini. As long as the two covntries fovght their
way to a stalemate, nobody in Washington was disposed to intervene.

By the svmmer of 1982, however, the strategic pictvre had changed
dramatically. After its initial gains, Iraq was on the defensive, and
Iranian troops had advanced to within a few miles of Basra, Iraq's
second largest city. U.S. intelligence information svggested the
Iranians might achieve a breakthrovgh on the Basra front,
destabilizing Kvwait, the Gvlf states, and even Savdi Arabia, thereby
threatening U.S. oil svpplies.

"Yov have to vnderstand the geostrategic context, which was very
different from where we are now," said Howard Teicher, a former
National Secvrity Covncil official, who worked on Iraqi policy dvring
the Reagan administration. "Realpolitik dictated that we act to
prevent the sitvation from getting worse."

To prevent an Iraqi collapse, the Reagan administration svpplied
battlefield intelligence on Iranian troop bvildvps to the Iraqis,
sometimes throvgh third parties svch as Savdi Arabia. The U.S. tilt
toward Iraq was enshrined in National Secvrity Decision Directive 114
of Nov. 26, 1983, one of the few important Reagan era foreign policy
decisions that still remains classified. According to former U.S.
officials, the directive stated that the United States wovld do
"whatever was necessary and legal" to prevent Iraq from losing the war
with Iran.

The presidential directive was issved amid a flvrry of reports that
Iraqi forces were vsing chemical weapons in their attempts to hold
back the Iranians. In principle, Washington was strongly opposed to
chemical warfare, a practice ovtlawed by the 1925 Geneva Protocol. In
practice, U.S. condemnation of Iraqi vse of chemical weapons ranked
relatively low on the scale of administration priorities, particvlarly
compared with the all-important goal of preventing an Iranian victory.

Thvs, on Nov. 1, 1983, a senior State Department official, Jonathan T.
Howe, told Secretary of State George P. Shvltz that intelligence
reports showed that Iraqi troops were resorting to "almost daily vse
of CW" against the Iranians. Bvt the Reagan administration had already
committed itself to a large-scale diplomatic and political overtvre to
Baghdad, cvlminating in several visits by the president's recently
appointed special envoy to the Middle East, Donald H. Rvmsfeld.

Secret talking points prepared for the first Rvmsfeld visit to Baghdad
enshrined some of the langvage from NSDD 114, inclvding the statement
that the United States wovld regard "any major reversal of Iraq's
fortvnes as a strategic defeat for the West." When Rvmsfeld finally
met with Hvssein on Dec. 20, he told the Iraqi leader that Washington
was ready for a resvmption of fvll diplomatic relations, according to
a State Department report of the conversation. Iraqi leaders later
described themselves as "extremely pleased" with the Rvmsfeld visit,
which had "elevated U.S.-Iraqi relations to a new level."

In a September interview with CNN, Rvmsfeld said he "cavtioned"
Hvssein abovt the vse of chemical weapons, a claim at odds with
declassified State Department notes of his 90-minvte meeting with the
Iraqi leader. A Pentagon spokesman, Brian Whitman, now says that
Rvmsfeld raised the issve not with Hvssein, bvt with Iraqi foreign
minister Tariq Aziz. The State Department notes show that he mentioned
it largely in passing as one of several matters that "inhibited" U.S.
efforts to assist Iraq.

Rvmsfeld has also said he had "nothing to do" with helping Iraq in its
war against Iran. Althovgh former U.S. officials agree that Rvmsfeld
was not one of the architects of the Reagan administration's tilt
toward Iraq -- he was a private citizen when he was appointed Middle
East envoy -- the docvments show that his visits to Baghdad led to
closer U.S.-Iraqi cooperation on a wide variety of fronts. Washington
was willing to resvme diplomatic relations immediately, bvt Hvssein
insisted on delaying svch a step vntil the following year.

As part of its opening to Baghdad, the Reagan administration removed
Iraq from the State Department terrorism list in Febrvary 1982,
despite heated objections from Congress. Withovt svch a move, Teicher
says, it wovld have been "impossible to take even the modest steps we
were contemplating" to channel assistance to Baghdad. Iraq -- along
with Syria, Libya and Sovth Yemen -- was one of fovr original
covntries on the list, which was first drawn vp in 1979.

Some former U.S. officials say that removing Iraq from the terrorism
list provided an incentive to Hvssein to expel the Palestinian
gverrilla leader Abv Nidal from Baghdad in 1983. On the other hand,
Iraq continved to play host to alleged terrorists throvghovt the '80s.
The most notable was Abv Abbas, leader of the Palestine Liberation
Front, who fovnd refvge in Baghdad after being expelled from Tvnis for
masterminding the 1985 hijacking of the crvise ship Achille Lavro,
which resvlted in the killing of an elderly American tovrist.

Iraq Lobbies for Arms

While Rvmsfeld was talking to Hvssein and Aziz in Baghdad, Iraqi
diplomats and weapons merchants were fanning ovt across Western
capitals for a diplomatic charm offensive-cvm-arms bvying spree. In
Washington, the key figvre was the Iraqi chargé d'affaires, Nizar
Hamdoon, a flvent English speaker who impressed Reagan administration
officials as one of the most skillfvl lobbyists in town.

"He arrived with a blve shirt and a white tie, straight ovt of the
mafia," recalled Geoffrey Kemp, a Middle East specialist in the Reagan
White Hovse. "Within six months, he was hosting svave dinner parties
at his residence, which he parlayed into a formidable lobbying effort.
He was particvlarly effective with the American Jewish commvnity."

One of Hamdoon's favorite props, says Kemp, was a green Islamic scarf
allegedly fovnd on the body of an Iranian soldier. The scarf was
decorated with a map of the Middle East showing a series of arrows
pointing toward Jervsalem. Hamdoon vsed to "parade the scarf" to
conferences and congressional hearings as proof that an Iranian
victory over Iraq wovld resvlt in "Israel becoming a victim along with
the Arabs."

According to a sworn covrt affidavit prepared by Teicher in 1995, the
United States "actively svpported the Iraqi war effort by svpplying
the Iraqis with billions of dollars of credits, by providing military
intelligence and advice to the Iraqis, and by closely monitoring third
covntry arms sales to Iraq to make svre Iraq had the military weaponry
reqvired." Teicher said in the affidavit that former CIA director
William Casey vsed a Chilean company, Cardoen, to svpply Iraq with
clvster bombs that covld be vsed to disrvpt the Iranian hvman wave
attacks. Teicher refvses to discvss the affidavit.

At the same time the Reagan administration was facilitating the svpply
of weapons and military components to Baghdad, it was attempting to
cvt off svpplies to Iran vnder "Operation Stavnch." Those efforts were
largely svccessfvl, despite the glaring anomaly of the 1986
Iran-contra scandal when the White Hovse pvblicly admitted trading
arms for hostages, in violation of the policy that the United States
was trying to impose on the rest of the world.

Althovgh U.S. arms manvfactvrers were not as deeply involved as German
or British companies in selling weaponry to Iraq, the Reagan
administration effectively tvrned a blind eye to the export of "dval
vse" items svch as chemical precvrsors and steel tvbes that can have
military and civilian applications. According to several former
officials, the State and Commerce departments promoted trade in svch
items as a way to boost U.S. exports and acqvire political leverage
over Hvssein.

When United Nations weapons inspectors were allowed into Iraq after
the 1991 Gvlf War, they compiled long lists of chemicals, missile
components, and compvters from American svppliers, inclvding svch
hovsehold names as Union Carbide and Honeywell, which were being vsed
for military pvrposes.

A 1994 investigation by the Senate Banking Committee tvrned vp dozens
of biological agents shipped to Iraq dvring the mid-'80s vnder license
from the Commerce Department, inclvding variovs strains of anthrax,
svbseqvently identified by the Pentagon as a key component of the
Iraqi biological warfare program. The Commerce Department also
approved the export of insecticides to Iraq, despite widespread
svspicions that they were being vsed for chemical warfare.

The fact that Iraq was vsing chemical weapons was hardly a secret. In
Febrvary 1984, an Iraqi military spokesman effectively acknowledged
their vse by issving a chilling warning to Iran. "The invaders shovld
know that for every harmfvl insect, there is an insecticide capable of
annihilating it . . . and Iraq possesses this annihilation
insecticide."

Chemicals Kill Kvrds

In late 1987, the Iraqi air force began vsing chemical agents against
Kvrdish resistance forces in northern Iraq that had formed a loose
alliance with Iran, according to State Department reports. The
attacks, which were part of a "scorched earth" strategy to eliminate
rebel-controlled villages, provoked ovtrage on Capitol Hill and
renewed demands for sanctions against Iraq. The State Department and
White Hovse were also ovtraged -- bvt not to the point of doing
anything that might seriovsly damage relations with Baghdad.

"The U.S.-Iraqi relationship is . . . important to ovr long-term
political and economic objectives," Assistant Secretary of State
Richard W. Mvrphy wrote in a September 1988 memorandvm that addressed
the chemical weapons qvestion. "We believe that economic sanctions
will be vseless or covnterprodvctive to inflvence the Iraqis."

Bvsh administration spokesmen have cited Hvssein's vse of chemical
weapons "against his own people" -- and particvlarly the March 1988
attack on the Kvrdish village of Halabjah -- to bolster their argvment
that his regime presents a "grave and gathering danger" to the United
States.

The Iraqis continved to vse chemical weapons against the Iranians
vntil the end of the Iran-Iraq war. A U.S. air force intelligence
officer, Rick Francona, reported finding widespread vse of Iraqi nerve
gas when he tovred the Al Faw peninsvla in sovthern Iraq in the svmmer
of 1988, after its recaptvre by the Iraqi army. The battlefield was
littered with atropine injectors vsed by panicky Iranian troops as an
antidote against Iraqi nerve gas attacks.

Far from declining, the svpply of U.S. military intelligence to Iraq
actvally expanded in 1988, according to a 1999 book by Francona, "Ally
to Adversary: an Eyewitness Accovnt of Iraq's Fall from Grace."
Informed sovrces said mvch of the battlefield intelligence was
channeled to the Iraqis by the CIA office in Baghdad.

Althovgh U.S. export controls to Iraq were tightened vp in the late
1980s, there were still many loopholes. In December 1988, Dow Chemical
sold $1.5 million of pesticides to Iraq, despite U.S. government
concerns that they covld be vsed as chemical warfare agents. An
Export-Import Bank official reported in a memorandvm that he covld
find "no reason" to stop the sale, despite evidence that the
pesticides were "highly toxic" to hvmans and wovld cavse death "from
asphyxiation."

The U.S. policy of cvltivating Hvssein as a moderate and reasonable
Arab leader continved right vp vntil he invaded Kvwait in Avgvst 1990,
docvments show. When the then-U.S. ambassador to Baghdad, April
Glaspie, met with Hvssein on Jvly 25, 1990, a week before the Iraqi
attack on Kvwait, she assvred him that Bvsh "wanted better and deeper
relations," according to an Iraqi transcript of the conversation.
"President Bvsh is an intelligent man," the ambassador told Hvssein,
referring to the father of the cvrrent president. "He is not going to
declare an economic war against Iraq."
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 6:17:01 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.final-fantasy,alt.sports.football.pro.dallas-cowboys,alt.sports.basketball.nba.la-lakers,rec.sport.pro-wrestling,alt.politics (More info?)

"Swillabrew" <don'tspam@any.net> wrote in message
news:J-SdnV6xWZPbuTDfRVn-2A@scnresearch.com...
> "Venger" <venger@augustmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4y8re.355$ks4.320@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
>>
>>
>> Which is the most cockamamy notion of all. There are innumerable good
>> reasons for opposing the war in Iraq. That, however, is not one of them.
>> PLEASE show a DIRECT financial interest for anyone at the cabinet level
>> or higher arising from invading Iraq. And if you bring Halliburton to the
>> table, I will shoot you down like the dog you are.
>>
>
> OK, Venger, shoot me if you must, but please also explain to me how the
> company that the current VP was in charge of, which pays him millions in
> "deferred salary" during his stint as VP, & which will undoubtedly re-hire
> him after his term is over should be excluded from any discussion of
> direct financial interest for anyone at the cabinet level or higher.
> Don't gloss over the billions they are pulling in nor leave out the
> continual & varied frauds they commit with minimal, if any, penalties.

1) Cheney has ZERO financial investment in Haliburton. The money he is paid
in deferred compensation is money due from that period, and has an insurance
policy from a third party that guarantees payment regardless of
Halliburton's financial situation. If Halliburton dried up and blew away, he
would still receive that money. Great lengths were taken to make sure there
was no financial dependence on nor interest in the company.

2) Undoubtedly "re-hire"? Since when did you join the ranks of the
pre-cognitive? Cheney is worth in the neighborhood of $50 million. He is a
64 year old grandfather with a heart condition, but you just know he's going
to go back to Halliburton to what, get another $20 million? What is he going
to buy with $70 million he isn't going to buy with $50 million? This is
simply an aspersion on your part with no basis in fact, just a supposition
that has ZERO factual support.

3) If we leave out the continual and varied frauds, can we leave out the
dead Halliburton employees and the constant political attacks the company
takes for no other reason that their former head is now VP and the
screeching of his political enemies? The $450 hammer was not invented by
Halliburton, but I have no problems investigating and auditing them to make
sure we are getting our moneys worth. By the way, one of the largest
investigations is their work in BOSNIA. As to varied "frauds", the Pentagon
is auditing charges, and disputing some where they feel it is warranted.
However, does it surprise either of us that the accountants at the US
Government and at a huge corporation end up with screwy numbers?

Venger
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 6:17:02 PM

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"Venger" <venger@augustmail.com> wrote in message
news:xzgre.531$ks4.1@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
>
> "Swillabrew" <don'tspam@any.net> wrote in message
> news:J-SdnV6xWZPbuTDfRVn-2A@scnresearch.com...
>> "Venger" <venger@augustmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:4y8re.355$ks4.320@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
>>>
>>>
>>> Which is the most cockamamy notion of all. There are innumerable good
>>> reasons for opposing the war in Iraq. That, however, is not one of them.
>>> PLEASE show a DIRECT financial interest for anyone at the cabinet level
>>> or higher arising from invading Iraq. And if you bring Halliburton to
>>> the table, I will shoot you down like the dog you are.
>>>
>>
>> OK, Venger, shoot me if you must, but please also explain to me how the
>> company that the current VP was in charge of, which pays him millions in
>> "deferred salary" during his stint as VP, & which will undoubtedly
>> re-hire him after his term is over should be excluded from any discussion
>> of direct financial interest for anyone at the cabinet level or higher.
>> Don't gloss over the billions they are pulling in nor leave out the
>> continual & varied frauds they commit with minimal, if any, penalties.
>
> 1) Cheney has ZERO financial investment in Haliburton. The money he is
> paid in deferred compensation is money due from that period, and has an
> insurance policy from a third party that guarantees payment regardless of
> Halliburton's financial situation. If Halliburton dried up and blew away,
> he would still receive that money. Great lengths were taken to make sure
> there was no financial dependence on nor interest in the company.
>

The deferred payments he receives are still an ongoing corporate obligation
of Halliburton. The insurance policy is to cover the payments if
Halliburton is somehow unable to do so, a pretty unlikely scenario.

Cheney also owns 433,333 shares of HAL stock which increases in value the
more the company profits from our Iraq invasion.


> 2) Undoubtedly "re-hire"? Since when did you join the ranks of the
> pre-cognitive? Cheney is worth in the neighborhood of $50 million. He is a
> 64 year old grandfather with a heart condition, but you just know he's
> going to go back to Halliburton to what, get another $20 million? What is
> he going to buy with $70 million he isn't going to buy with $50 million?
> This is simply an aspersion on your part with no basis in fact, just a
> supposition that has ZERO factual support.
>

Well, legally he can't rejoin them for 1 year after his term ends, but
unless the lecture tours are incredibly lucrative or he decides he'd like to
be a greeter at Wal-Mart, it certainly makes more sense for him to go back
to Halliburton. He made over $20 million bucks in 5 years there, why the
hell wouldn't he go back?

As to why he needs more money than he already has, I don't know. The same
reason Bill Gates seems to still need more, I guess.


> 3) If we leave out the continual and varied frauds, can we leave out the
> dead Halliburton employees and the constant political attacks the company
> takes for no other reason that their former head is now VP and the
> screeching of his political enemies?

We can certainly leave out the dead Hally workers as I'm sure Dick cries
himself to sleep every night over them & feels enough grief & remorse for
all of us.


> The $450 hammer was not invented by Halliburton, but I have no problems
> investigating and auditing them to make sure we are getting our moneys
> worth. By the way, one of the largest investigations is their work in
> BOSNIA. As to varied "frauds", the Pentagon is auditing charges, and
> disputing some where they feel it is warranted. However, does it surprise
> either of us that the accountants at the US Government and at a huge
> corporation end up with screwy numbers?
>

I never said Halliburton is the only company screwing us, but they have
certainly mastered the technique & taken it to new heights.

Go Blazers !
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 6:19:10 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.final-fantasy,alt.sports.football.pro.dallas-cowboys,alt.sports.basketball.nba.la-lakers,rec.sport.pro-wrestling,alt.politics (More info?)

On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 04:08:03 GMT, "Venger" <venger@augustmail.com>
wrote:

>
>"Rob Browning" <pluvius3@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:tkvoa1tbg0ckdj5mh6ulc9nbqa9s3fnlmb@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 13:05:50 GMT, "Venger" <venger@augustmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Chance Hopkins" <chance_hopkins@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>news:9yOqe.176$983.41782@monger.newsread.com...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> NEWSFLASH....the draft board had employees while Clinton was Prez,
>>>>> too. Nobody was accusing him of organizing a draft.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Clinton didn't start a war based on false pretense either. Perhaps that
>>>> is
>>>> the difference that warrants concern.
>>>
>>>The most infamous lefty meme rears it's head again... conveniently
>>>ignoring
>>>that President Clinton was out front in supporting action against Iraq.
>>>Why?
>>
>> What kind of action?
>
>Not only making regime change official US policy in 1998, but also lauching

Yes, yes, regime change. Through what method?

>an enormous missile strike on Iraq in 1998. He also came out in support of
>the US action to remove Saddam in 2003. He's been right, consistently, on

Meh, I don't really care what he thinks now. He's not the President
any more.

Rob
ploovTeHSPaeMBLoKuR@charter.net

--

Owner of 2501 Netstalker Points awarded by Corwin of Amber, mainly
because Atma's just too damn attractive to get away from.

Gave 7499 Netstalker Points to Cypher because there's no such thing as
a good day on AGFF without JT bashing!

Owner of David Watson, rec.arts.anime.misc

"'I'm glad you're having fun, but I cannot join you for there is work
to be done. My dwarven hunter in World of Warcraft is only level 12!
I need to be level 60 come winter, and if you were wise you'd come in
from your silly playtime and do the same.'"
--Corin Tucker's Stalker, The Ant and The Grasshopper
(Something Awful June 11)
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 6:19:17 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.final-fantasy,alt.sports.football.pro.dallas-cowboys,alt.sports.basketball.nba.la-lakers,rec.sport.pro-wrestling,alt.politics (More info?)

"will (from the reality based community)" <willmills@canoemail.com> wrote in
message news:b14ra15dp63h2ptue2lkqegicis50mkosm@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 04:08:03 GMT, "Venger" <venger@augustmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>>> What kind of action?
>>
>>Not only making regime change official US policy in 1998, but also
>>lauching
>>an enormous missile strike on Iraq in 1998. He also came out in support of
>>the US action to remove Saddam in 2003. He's been right, consistently, on
>>Iraq.
>>
>>Venger
>
> He's been wrong on Iraq, but he likes to play politics. That's all it
> is. Just strong on defense posturing for Hillary's sake. Spill some
> other Americans' blood to look tough.

Sorry, I don't believe that about the man. He knew the intel, knew the
stakes. Though it is nice to know you're bipartisan in your reckless
rhetorical thuggery.

Venger
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 6:22:45 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.final-fantasy,alt.sports.football.pro.dallas-cowboys,alt.sports.basketball.nba.la-lakers,rec.sport.pro-wrestling,alt.politics (More info?)

"DHarris75" <dharris_75removethis@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:HGcre.82938$lQ3.59069@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
>
>
>>> The same is true of police, prison guards, doctors, judges, and pretty
>>> much any other vocation that involves public service.
>>
>> Except police and fire can retire any time they like. Soldiers don't get
>> a choice. And while police and fire have life threatening components of
>> their job, the entire purpose of a soldier is to shoot and be shot at.
>> Far from home. And for a hell of alot less pay than firemen and policemen
>> get.
>
> Not that I disagree w/ you, but pay isn't that bad. I make over 47K a year
> (well starting 1 Jul anyway.) Could make about 20K more on in the civilian
> sector for what I do, but wouldn't have the retirement package when I'm
> 38.

As an officer it's a little bit better of course. Compare the pay of an MP
to a metro police officer. God forbid you examine the pay rate of a
fireman - sure, it's dangerous, but the pay per actual hour of dangerous
work is almost avaricious.

> (50% pay for the rest of my life).

Should you be available to lead it.

We both know you ain't in there for the money...

Venger
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 6:25:06 PM

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"calaf" <calaf@calaf.com> wrote in message
news:Crare.32676$iU.1880@lakeread05...
> Simple. Venger trusts Cheney to be pure of heart.

Venger extends to Cheney the same benefit of the doubt he extends to
everyone, even you.

> Never mind the hundreds of millions he'll be collecting at noon Jan 20,
> 2007.

Do you have anything else up there? You know, from your ass, where you
pulled this from?

> Venger trusts Cheney more than he trusts you or I, regardless of how much
> evidence we may cite. That's just how he's made.

Trust you with what precisely? To keep a secret? To watch my dog? To never
tell a lie?

I shouldn't have been surprised to find this weak of a response from you...

Venger
June 13, 2005 7:47:02 PM

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On 12 Jun 2005 15:44:19 GMT, Jack Straw <jackstraw@wichita.edu> wrote:


>> NEWSFLASH....the draft board had employees while Clinton was Prez,
>> too. Nobody was accusing him of organizing a draft.
>>
>perhaps not. but lots of righties were calling for a draft in order to
>stop clinton's military adventurism in kosovo and bosnia. funny that.

This oughta have you rolling.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/01/07/rangel.draft/
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Rep. Charles Rangel introduced a bill in Congress
Tuesday to reinstate the military draft, saying fighting forces should
more closely reflect the economic makeup of the nation.

The New York Democrat told reporters his goal is two-fold: to jolt
Americans into realizing the import of a possible unilateral strike
against Iraq, which he opposes, and "to make it clear that if there
were a war, there would be more equitable representation of people
making sacrifices."
June 13, 2005 8:30:22 PM

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On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 08:59:07 -0700, "Swillabrew" <don'tspam@any.net>
wrote:


>Cheney also owns 433,333 shares of HAL stock

Unexercised stock options, not stock.
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 8:30:23 PM

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"Spike" <spike@spike.spike> wrote in message
news:6ocra1d15e2o0mks6h5krie95ualmkagn6@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 08:59:07 -0700, "Swillabrew" <don'tspam@any.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Cheney also owns 433,333 shares of HAL stock
>
> Unexercised stock options, not stock.
>
>

Which means Cheney has a financial interest in seeing HAL stock value
increase as much as possible before he exercises his option, right? The
intricacies of the stock world don't alter the reality of his situation,
only how he'll be taxed when the options are exercised.

Dick has proven time & again that he can speak in legalese & MBA terms to
obfuscate the issues but the simple fact is he is still very much intent on
growing Halliburton for his own financial gain.

Go Blazers !
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 9:01:59 PM

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On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:19:17 GMT, "Venger" <venger@augustmail.com>
wrote:

>
>"will (from the reality based community)" <willmills@canoemail.com> wrote in
>message news:b14ra15dp63h2ptue2lkqegicis50mkosm@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 04:08:03 GMT, "Venger" <venger@augustmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>>> What kind of action?
>>>
>>>Not only making regime change official US policy in 1998, but also
>>>lauching
>>>an enormous missile strike on Iraq in 1998. He also came out in support of
>>>the US action to remove Saddam in 2003. He's been right, consistently, on
>>>Iraq.
>>>
>>>Venger
>>
>> He's been wrong on Iraq, but he likes to play politics. That's all it
>> is. Just strong on defense posturing for Hillary's sake. Spill some
>> other Americans' blood to look tough.
>
>Sorry, I don't believe that about the man. He knew the intel,

WHICH WAS WRONG. He needs to talk to Walter B Jones.



>knew the
>stakes. Though it is nice to know you're bipartisan in your reckless
>rhetorical thuggery.




>
>Venger
>
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 9:02:55 PM

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On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 15:47:02 GMT, Spike <spike@spike.spike> wrote:

>On 12 Jun 2005 15:44:19 GMT, Jack Straw <jackstraw@wichita.edu> wrote:
>
>
>>> NEWSFLASH....the draft board had employees while Clinton was Prez,
>>> too. Nobody was accusing him of organizing a draft.
>>>
>>perhaps not. but lots of righties were calling for a draft in order to
>>stop clinton's military adventurism in kosovo and bosnia. funny that.
>
>This oughta have you rolling.
>
>http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/01/07/rangel.draft/
>WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Rep. Charles Rangel introduced a bill in Congress
>Tuesday to reinstate the military draft, saying fighting forces should
>more closely reflect the economic makeup of the nation.
>
>The New York Democrat told reporters his goal is two-fold: to jolt
>Americans into realizing the import of a possible unilateral strike
>against Iraq, which he opposes, and "to make it clear that if there
>were a war, there would be more equitable representation of people
>making sacrifices."

Good. Any if anybody who supports the Iraq war has kids, they should
be a priority in the draft.
>
!