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new battery conditioning question

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Anonymous
May 1, 2005 10:24:03 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

I just bought nickel metal hydride batteries to replace the nicads in
my house portable phones. Do these need to be conditioned like lithium
batteries - i.e., a couple of full discharge cycles?

Any help appreciated. Thanks.
Anonymous
May 1, 2005 10:45:47 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"JZ" <zwerl1@yahoo.com> wrote:

>I just bought nickel metal hydride batteries to replace the nicads in
> my house portable phones. Do these need to be conditioned like lithium
> batteries - i.e., a couple of full discharge cycles?


Lithium-Ion batteries don't need to be "conditioned"--and neither do
Nickel-Metal-Hydride batteries.

--
D.J., N8DO; FMCA 147762
dj[underscore]osborn at yahoo dot com
Anonymous
May 1, 2005 10:45:48 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

D.J. Osborn wrote:
> Lithium-Ion batteries don't need to be "conditioned"--and neither do
> Nickel-Metal-Hydride batteries.

So they say. Still, every single one I've had has pretty near doubled in
capacity by the tenth charge/discharge cycle. (No deep discharging
involved, either; use until 'low battery' token, then recharge.)

--
I miss my .signature.
Related resources
Anonymous
May 2, 2005 3:48:34 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"clifto" <clifto@clifto.com> wrote:

> D.J. Osborn wrote:
>> Lithium-Ion batteries don't need to be "conditioned"--and neither do
>> Nickel-Metal-Hydride batteries.
>
> So they say. Still, every single one I've had has pretty near doubled in
> capacity by the tenth charge/discharge cycle. (No deep discharging
> involved, either; use until 'low battery' token, then recharge.)


It sounds as if you;ve given it normal use, and it's performed well. That
confirms what I've written.

--
D.J., N8DO; FMCA 147762
dj[underscore]osborn at yahoo dot com
Anonymous
May 2, 2005 4:40:26 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

D.J. Osborn wrote:
> "clifto" <clifto@clifto.com> wrote:
>> D.J. Osborn wrote:
>>> Lithium-Ion batteries don't need to be "conditioned"--and neither do
>>> Nickel-Metal-Hydride batteries.
>>
>> So they say. Still, every single one I've had has pretty near doubled in
>> capacity by the tenth charge/discharge cycle. (No deep discharging
>> involved, either; use until 'low battery' token, then recharge.)
>
> It sounds as if you;ve given it normal use, and it's performed well. That
> confirms what I've written.

Then we're basically tripped up in the semantics, and possibly the OP as
well. Even though it's not a special secret-handshake clandestine
conditioning procedure, I still refer to it as "conditioning" and don't
treat the batteries as "ready for prime-time" before that's done. The
devil is in the definitions.

--
I miss my .signature.
Anonymous
May 2, 2005 6:21:09 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

> Any help appreciated. Thanks.

It's my understanding that this is how the newer batteries work:

Each battery has a predetermined number of charge cycles. I don't think
that there's a "charge fairy" on the assembly line that waves her wand, and
says, "ok, you have 400 charge cycles", but, arbitrarily speaking, I think
that every battery has approx. 300 - 500 charge cycles. One of these charge
cycles is exhausted EVERY TIME that you put the phone on to charge.

So, even though these batteries don't work on the "memory" that the older
batteries did, you're still doing yourself a favor if you run the battery
down as far as you can, considering safety and convenience, and only charge
them when they need to be charged. That way, you'll get maximum life out of
your bat.

ex-tech
Anonymous
May 2, 2005 7:10:39 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

In article <pHqde.39589$5f.26835@tornado.tampabay.rr.com>, ex-tech
<kbechernospam@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:

> Each battery has a predetermined number of charge cycles. ...
> ... arbitrarily speaking, I think
> that every battery has approx. 300 - 500 charge cycles. One of these charge
> cycles is exhausted EVERY TIME that you put the phone on to charge.

For the lithium batteries found in most modern cellphones, that's
absolutely INCORRECT. Current lithium-ion and lithium-polymer
batteries can handle about 300-500 *complete* discharge/charge cycles
before they start to lose capacity. If you discharge by 10%, then
recharge it, you've only used one-tenth of a complete cycle.

> So, even though these batteries don't work on the "memory" that the
> older batteries did, you're still doing yourself a favor if you run the
> battery down as far as you can... That way, you'll get maximum life
> out of your bat.

Running a lithium battery down as far as it will go is the most
*damaging* thing you can do to it, and will dramatically shorten the
life cycle if done frequently. Every month or two won't hurt it (and
will help recalibrate the device's battery gauge), but it should not be
a normal practice.

That also applies to the nickel-metal-hydride matteries the OP asked
about, but they'll lose life even faster -- 200-300 cycles if
repeatedly deep cycled.

What works for Nickel-cadmium batteries is not applicable to these
other battery technologies, and in many cases what's beneficial for a
NiCad is damaging to other types of batteries.

May I recommend this site:
http://www.batteryuniversity.com/


As to conditioning nickel-metal-hydride batteries before initial use,
which was the OP's question, no, it's not necessary. And because it
doesn't have the issue of crystallized cadmium the way NiCad batteries
do, it doesn't need to be deep-discharged nearly as often. About once
every three months should be adequate. Deep-discharging it frequently
will shorten its lifespan.

--
Garner R. Miller
Clifton Park, NY =USA=
Anonymous
May 2, 2005 10:38:38 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"Garner Miller" <garner@netstreet.net> wrote in message news:020520051110395410%garner@netstreet.net...
>
>
>
> Running a lithium battery down as far as it will go is the most
> *damaging* thing you can do to it, ....

Definitely true, for ordinary usage.
But if you somehow defeated the charging control on a LiIon cell,
then overcharging the unprotected cell would be even more damaging.
The resulting explosion would likely cause considerable collateral damage.
Anonymous
May 2, 2005 11:54:29 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"clifto" <clifto@clifto.com> wrote:

> D.J. Osborn wrote:
>> "clifto" <clifto@clifto.com> wrote:
>>> D.J. Osborn wrote:
>>>> Lithium-Ion batteries don't need to be "conditioned"--and neither do
>>>> Nickel-Metal-Hydride batteries.
>>>
>>> So they say. Still, every single one I've had has pretty near doubled in
>>> capacity by the tenth charge/discharge cycle. (No deep discharging
>>> involved, either; use until 'low battery' token, then recharge.)
>>
>> It sounds as if you;ve given it normal use, and it's performed well. That
>> confirms what I've written.
>
> Then we're basically tripped up in the semantics, and possibly the OP as
> well. Even though it's not a special secret-handshake clandestine
> conditioning procedure, I still refer to it as "conditioning" and don't
> treat the batteries as "ready for prime-time" before that's done. The
> devil is in the definitions.


As has been discussed elsewhere in this thread, there's absolutely *no* need
to "condition" the batteries. If you happen to (or need to) run them down so
far that the phone automatically shuts down, then you're not doing them any
harm. However, there's no need to "condition" them by running them down to a
deep discharge. Moreover, your phone will automatically turn off before the
battery gets to a deep discharge, and so--despite what you desire to call
it--you're not actually "conditioning" one when you discharge it to the
point of automatic phone shutdown, anyhow.

--
D.J., N8DO; FMCA 147762
dj[underscore]osborn at yahoo dot com
Anonymous
May 2, 2005 11:54:30 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

D.J. Osborn wrote:
> "clifto" <clifto@clifto.com> wrote:
>
>> D.J. Osborn wrote:
>>> "clifto" <clifto@clifto.com> wrote:
>>>> D.J. Osborn wrote:
>>>>> Lithium-Ion batteries don't need to be
>>>>> "conditioned"--and neither do Nickel-Metal-Hydride
>>>>> batteries.
>>>>
>>>> So they say. Still, every single one I've had has
>>>> pretty near doubled in capacity by the tenth
>>>> charge/discharge cycle. (No deep discharging involved,
>>>> either; use until 'low battery' token, then recharge.)
>>>
>>> It sounds as if you;ve given it normal use, and it's
>>> performed well. That confirms what I've written.
>>
>> Then we're basically tripped up in the semantics, and
>> possibly the OP as well. Even though it's not a special
>> secret-handshake clandestine conditioning procedure, I
>> still refer to it as "conditioning" and don't treat the
>> batteries as "ready for prime-time" before that's done.
>> The devil is in the definitions.
>
>
> As has been discussed elsewhere in this thread, there's
> absolutely *no* need to "condition" the batteries. If you
> happen to (or need to) run them down so far that the
> phone automatically shuts down, then you're not doing
> them any harm. However, there's no need to "condition"
> them by running them down to a deep discharge. Moreover,
> your phone will automatically turn off before the battery
> gets to a deep discharge, and so--despite what you desire
> to call it--you're not actually "conditioning" one when
> you discharge it to the point of automatic phone
> shutdown, anyhow.

I've decided that the placebo effect is far more valuable
to those who aren't sure or don't know than the loss of
a few charging cycles. I explain it once and then encourage
them to "condition" it anyway "just in case". If they don't
question the contradiction then they really want to believe
that it will do some good and will feel much better after
doing so. If they do question the contradiction then I will
proceed to explain the "gas guage" and how it can drift
from the actual battery condition and how "conditioning"
it then can re-sync things.

-Quick
Anonymous
May 2, 2005 11:54:31 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Quick wrote:
>
> I've decided that the placebo effect is far more valuable
> to those who aren't sure or don't know than the loss of
> a few charging cycles. I explain it once and then encourage
> them to "condition" it anyway "just in case". If they don't
> question the contradiction then they really want to believe
> that it will do some good and will feel much better after
> doing so. If they do question the contradiction then I will
> proceed to explain the "gas guage" and how it can drift
> from the actual battery condition and how "conditioning"
> it then can re-sync things.
>
> -Quick

You may want to consider the analogy that I use... Not all batteries like
deep discharges.. Look at a car battery.. Do you run it completely dead and
then recharge it, or do you charge it in small increments as you use it?

The hardest part of selling someone on the idea of a cellsocket (device you
put your phone in and it connects to the land lines in your house, in
addition to charging your battery while it is in the socket)... People that
think Lion's are the same as Nicad's are impossible to sell...
Anonymous
May 3, 2005 2:25:48 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"Quick" <quick7135-news@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1115065332.121657@sj-nntpcache-3...
> D.J. Osborn wrote:
>> "clifto" <clifto@clifto.com> wrote:
>>
>>> D.J. Osborn wrote:
>>>> "clifto" <clifto@clifto.com> wrote:
>>>>> D.J. Osborn wrote:
>>>>>> Lithium-Ion batteries don't need to be
>>>>>> "conditioned"--and neither do Nickel-Metal-Hydride
>>>>>> batteries.
>>>>>
>>>>> So they say. Still, every single one I've had has
>>>>> pretty near doubled in capacity by the tenth
>>>>> charge/discharge cycle. (No deep discharging involved,
>>>>> either; use until 'low battery' token, then recharge.)
>>>>
>>>> It sounds as if you;ve given it normal use, and it's
>>>> performed well. That confirms what I've written.
>>>
>>> Then we're basically tripped up in the semantics, and
>>> possibly the OP as well. Even though it's not a special
>>> secret-handshake clandestine conditioning procedure, I
>>> still refer to it as "conditioning" and don't treat the
>>> batteries as "ready for prime-time" before that's done.
>>> The devil is in the definitions.
>>
>>
>> As has been discussed elsewhere in this thread, there's
>> absolutely *no* need to "condition" the batteries. If you
>> happen to (or need to) run them down so far that the
>> phone automatically shuts down, then you're not doing
>> them any harm. However, there's no need to "condition"
>> them by running them down to a deep discharge. Moreover,
>> your phone will automatically turn off before the battery
>> gets to a deep discharge, and so--despite what you desire
>> to call it--you're not actually "conditioning" one when
>> you discharge it to the point of automatic phone
>> shutdown, anyhow.
>
> I've decided that the placebo effect is far more valuable
> to those who aren't sure or don't know than the loss of
> a few charging cycles. I explain it once and then encourage
> them to "condition" it anyway "just in case". If they don't
> question the contradiction then they really want to believe
> that it will do some good and will feel much better after
> doing so. If they do question the contradiction then I will
> proceed to explain the "gas guage" and how it can drift
> from the actual battery condition and how "conditioning"
> it then can re-sync things.


Sounds good to me. Does it go something like, "Condition once and call me in
the morning. . . ."?

--
D.J., N8DO; FMCA 147762
dj[underscore]osborn at yahoo dot com
Anonymous
May 3, 2005 3:07:45 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

> May I recommend this site:
> http://www.batteryuniversity.com/

Hmm, definitely appears to be a credible source of information. Maybe
whoever fed me my info was FOS. It was a Solectron employee...

ex-tech
Anonymous
May 3, 2005 3:07:46 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

ex-tech wrote:
>> May I recommend this site:
>> http://www.batteryuniversity.com/
>
> Hmm, definitely appears to be a credible source of information. Maybe
> whoever fed me my info was FOS. It was a Solectron employee...
>
> ex-tech

Sounds like he is gonna be an "ex-tech" like your handle..... :) 
Anonymous
May 3, 2005 8:16:44 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

> Sounds like he is gonna be an "ex-tech" like your handle..... :) 
To the best of my recollection, the line of logic that I mentioned above was
commonly dispensed my most "techs" while I was working in the VZW store. A
quick look at a few user guides on the Motorola and Kyocera sites offer only
vague instructions on the best time to charge a battery, based on the
existing charge strength.

ex-tech
!