I just can't figure this out!

hatimh · Jul 22, 2003

Hi,

I don't really know where to start with this, but I'll just give you my specs and then go from there:

ASUS A7N8X deluxe rev 1.2 bios 1004
Tbred b 1700+ running at 13*171 2.23 GHz 1.80v (45 idle) (52 full load) usinf crappy volcano 7 hsf
2*512 Corsair value select DDR 333 6, 2, 2, 2.5
Enermax 350W PSU
2 optical drives
2 7200rpm HDDs (1 is sata)
1 ZIP 250
1 floppy

I think that's enough detail for now unless you need more.

This setup runs stable as mentioned above. If I try to take it any higher either on the multiplier or fsb after a while I get a BSOD MACHINE_CHECK_EXCEPTION.

Using the asus probe mobo monitoring software I noticed that whenever I play C&C generals (my ati radeon 8500 3D mode kicks in) mostly that's when I get the BSOD, but my +5v line drops down below 4.75.

Now my problem is I don't know what's holding the further overclocking back.

I don't really know if it's my RAM, my CPU (just reached its limit) or the power (+5v).

The other thing I thought was to disconnect all the extra drives/peripherals connected with the molex plugs but my stupid mobo refuses to boot up when I do that! It just hangs on mem count.

Having read all of that my questions are as follows:

1. Do you know which factor it could holding back the further overclocking?

2. What devices use the +5v line?

3. Is it possible to mod my PSU to increase the current on the +5v

4. Do you think maybe my power supply is not enough for my rig?

5. You might notice my multiplier is 13, that's because I modded it and cut I think it was the L1 and L3 bridges, do think it would be better for to go back to a lower fsb and increase the fsb, would my corsair value select ram allow it?

6. Please could you make some suggestions and comments based on the information I have provided?

If you need any further info please just ask.

Thanks.

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Don't extract the urine.Edited by hatimh on 07/22/03 00:19 AM.

pIII_Man · Jul 22, 2003

first off...2.23 is a damn good overclock for a 1.47 ghz cpu...

moving on...to find out if the mem is holding you back...run the memory asynchronous to the FSB and see if you can crank that baby any higher...

many times the cpu voltage is feed from the 5v line...other times the 12v depending on the board...the 5v line is important though and a fluctuating power source is not very good...i must also say that with a floppy a zip drive 2 hard drives and 2 opticals that power supply may be running near it's limmit...

Some power supplies have a potentiometer inside of them that could let you bump up the voltage...this would increase the voltage comming out of ALL rails of the power supply and i would not recomend it unless you know what you are doing...

again i think 366mhz is pretty good for that memory...you could try to run it @ 6,3,3,3 to see if that will alow to overclock it much further...if you cannot hit 400mhz at those timmings then i recomend bringing back the speed and returning to the old timmings because although running @ a faster speed...those $hit timmings will reduce performance...

Probably the reason that your computer failed post is because you also must disconnect the drives from the ide channel...don't just unplug them...you bios probably though that some of your drives had failed...

Now that i think of it...for some revision 1 boards 180-190mhz were a bitch to cross...the reason being is becase the Nforce chipset was holding them back...you could try to add cooling to the north bridge...put some AS3 underneath it and slap on a 60-70mm fan and see if that helps...

There is no smell better than fried silicon :evil:

siranthony · Jul 22, 2003

It's possible it's the PSU. I know when a load draws more amps the voltage drops. That also creates more heat.

phsstpok · Jul 22, 2003

I've got the same problem. In my case, Tbred @2.1 Ghz + Radeon 8500 at 275/300 + Enermax PSU (mine's an older 330 watt model) = +5 V rail dropping to as low as 4.7 to 4.8 volts, under 4.7 seems to cause me stability problems.

Higher CPU or video card overclock means lower +5 supply and loss of stability.

I just deal with the limitation (because I'm cheap).

There is a mod I can do on my model Enermax, adding a trim pot, but IIRC the 350 watt model may already have a trim pot. Try Google Search.

Warning! High voltages! Be careful!

Update
Now that I think about it. We are probably drawing too much current and pushing our PSU's past their limits (as someone already mentioned).

The mod isn't really intended to fix this condition but rather to bring up the +5 volt rail which commonly run a little low even under normal loads.

If you want to risk it you can find an article (not English) at the Hardware FAQ, <A HREF="http://www.madshrimps.be/?action=hwfaq" target="_new">http://www.madshrimps.be/?action=hwfaq</A>.

56K, slow and steady does not win the race on internet!Edited by phsstpok on 07/22/03 10:19 AM.

hatimh · Jul 22, 2003

Hey phsstpok, I recently sent you a pm about my 1700+ thx for the help. After having a look at my 1700 and how small those bridges are I'm not going to bother reversing the mod unless someone tells me that it's really easy.

Anyway back to the topic at hand.

Thanks for ur replies so far.

PIII man when u say asynchronous you mean the same? It already is like that 171 cpu fsb and 171 mem fsb. I probably won't mess around with the potentiometer and the $hit memory timings well you're right it ain't worth it

You could be right about not unplugging the ide cables I only unplugged the power.

I may try your suggestion with the north bridge.

I'm going to try a sorta cheap 550W PSU, not the QTEC, but one which says it gives out 40A on the +5v rail. Do you think that might be a good idea? If it works I'll definitely let you know phhstpok because your system is kinda similar to mine. I'm running my radeon 8500 299/317 I added ramsinks (cut up an old pII heatsink). If I get a better heatsink on the gpu I might be able to take the core higher.

Does anybody know what exactly the MACHINE_CHECK_EXCEPTION is? If I can find out then I'll know exactly what I need to change or modify.

phsstpok which article is do you have the exact link on the hardware faq or what to click? Thanks.

I got the globalwin cak2 38 DAMN that thing is loud. If overclocking has to become like this then screw the extra 100 or so MHz and just run everyting silently. It makes me sad.

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Don't extract the urine.

pIII_Man · Jul 22, 2003

asynchronous means diffrent...example cpu @ 200 mem @177...its worth a try just to see what is holding ya back...same with the memory timming...i would just try those options to see if it is memory...cpu or other things...

My north bridge sudgestion will help stop instabilities that occur...if your computer fails post then adding cooling probably won't help...but if it runs for a while and then blue screens the ya may be in luck...

You have to relise that amps are not the big thing...its the quality...Watts mean squat if you don't have quality (crashman)...i would not recomend going out and getting a huge generic power supply...i would go for a nice antec...enermax...or forton 400 watter...and thats only if you narrow it down to your power supply as being the issue...

I normally get those machine_check_exceptions when i overclock to far...what are they...basically windows saving your A$$...just think of it as windows forcing you to shut down to avoid data or hardware destruction...there is nothing you can do to modify it...

There is no smell better than fried silicon :evil:

phsstpok · Jul 22, 2003

Yes, I'm interested your results but I'm not interested in generic power supplies.

I should just break down and buy a decent (but inexpensive) Sparkle/Fotron power supply.

The link is somewhere under "Cases and PSUs" but here's a <A HREF="http://www.amdforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=54084" target="_new">message thread</A> [EDIT - better if I actually include the link. LOL!]. Second page has a good description of the mod.

Again, do this at your own risk!

Offtopic:

Filling/redoing the bridges looks too confined.

Ever sincee the wire mods were posted I wouldn't even think about doing the cutting mods when using legacy mobos (you don't have one any longer but I do). Usually one of the workarounds (a wire mod) is needed anyway.

Drop some wires into socket holes. What could be easier?

If I were going to do the bridges I think I like "battery trick" (though I haven't tried it). The battery (pair of D Cells) shorts the desired bridge. No cuts means no risk of damage the substrate, no multiplier errors. Makes it easier to repaint later too, if necessary.

Everyone says that Athlons draw from the +12V rail but everytime I increase overclock, CPU or Vid card, it's the +5 rail that drops. (The +12 V rail actually goes up a little).

56K, slow and steady does not win the race on internet!Edited by phsstpok on 07/22/03 03:04 PM.

hatimh · Jul 23, 2003

Definitely some great suggestions there from all of you.

I don't know how to get the heatsink off the north bridge, I'm sorry if I sound like a noob!

I just advertised my enermax psu on ebay!!! After reading some of the thread on that voltage mod though, I wanna go and take the as off immediately and do the mod, the problem is, I'm no expert but I have soldered mod chips onto my xbox and dreamcast in the past.

They keep referring to "pot" on the thread and "fresh tin" what the hell? This is too much for me.

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Don't extract the urine.

hatimh · Jul 23, 2003

OK I just tried running cpu fsb at 166 and mem fsb at 200 no problems, so if that's what pIIIman was talking about then it works I guess and I can say that it's not my memory?!? maybe.

phsstpok, to get my 1700+ multipliers back to their defaults would a wire mod be easier or filling in the cuts and using silver lacquer or whatever to make the connection again? Do you have any links to walk throughs of these mods?

The reason why, is because I think going down to lower mults is going to solve many problems. First of all I won't have to use the deltafan full 7000 rpm (7v trick - thanks svol) Becasue I would then be able to reduce the vcore right down, and that would then maybe help the +5v line on my PSU to stay at a higher level, am I right?

Thanks loads.

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Don't extract the urine.Edited by hatimh on 07/22/03 09:24 PM.

pIII_Man · Jul 23, 2003

they must be stoners :tongue:

Actually pot is short for potentiometer (or however you spell it)

Fresh tin...i assume they are referring to soldering...when you "tin" a wire you apply solder to it so that it can more easly bond to another surface/wire...if ya give me links to these sites i could probably better answer your questions...

There is no smell better than fried silicon :evil:

pIII_Man · Jul 23, 2003

if you bump your voltage up to 1.85 do you get any higher...if not or not much higher at least...it coould be N. bridge...how do your remove it....i unfortunatly do not have that board...but looking at some pictures it seems as though the board is using some sort of push pin setup...once you remove it carfully (w/o scratching) remove the stock "gunk" off of the bottom of the heatsink and chipset and apply AS3...you may have to remove the board from case to get the heatsink off...

I have heard a 40-50mm fan will fit on the NB pretty well (i overshot to 60-70 in my last post...thats a bit to large). Of course you could try your luck with the stock thermal compound and a fan...

Yes it appears that either your board or cpu are holding you back...

This just poped into my head...by any chance is there a chipset voltage setting in your bios...combined with better cooling and increased voltages this may make your board a little more stable...

There is no smell better than fried silicon :evil:

hatimh · Jul 23, 2003

ok cool, I get it now. The link I'm talking about is the on in phsstpok's reply. It's a long thread but is interesting, well for me anyway coz thats the PSU I have.

I've bumped it up to 1.85v and 175 fsb and it seems to be running fine benchmarks and stuff.

There are no voltage settings for the N bridge, I have asmall fan I could try though.

You say it's cpu or N bridge, what about psu?

Another quick question, my friend has an 1800+ jiuhb du3tc (or whatever) is that essentially the same as the 1700+ just priced more? COuld I use his chip to test my fsb speeds before actually unmodding mine?

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Don't extract the urine.Edited by hatimh on 07/23/03 08:22 AM.

phsstpok · Jul 23, 2003

You've got an A7N8X, an nForce2 mobo, which makes this easier. You mod'd your Tbred XP1700+ to look like either an XP2100+ or and XP2400+ (I forget which one).

To reverse the 8X multiplier bit you drop a wire (thin strand) into socket holes AJ27 (8x bit) and AH28 (Vss, ground). This will force the 8x bit LO giving the lower multipliers.

Here's a link (lower-middle of the page).

<A HREF="http://www.beachlink.com/candjac/workarounds.htm" target="_new">http://www.beachlink.com/candjac/workarounds.htm</A>

56K, slow and steady does not win the race on internet!

pIII_Man · Jul 23, 2003

try the fan...on the north bridge...

sounds like it was the cpu holding ya back...i would say un mod the multi...drop it to 8x then try to run your fsb as high as you stably can...then start bumping up the multies till she wont go any further...

Yes you could use that chip...but you could also use the wire trick too...

I dunno bout psu or mem now cause it is running 175mhz fsb now...so i would say that it is the chip...

So easy to fry yet tastes so good...
Silicon: The other, other, other white meat :evil:

hatimh · Jul 24, 2003

phsstpok and pIII_man I'm very grateful to you for all your help. Here's what I did.

I followed the link to the wire mod that phsstpok mentioned, read it and understood it. I got one strand of

wire (out of 6 strands intertwined) from an old fan with the wires sticking out of it which I had lying around.

I looped the the two holes with one strand put the cpu back switched it all on changed the mult to 12.5 and it

didn't boot

I then tried with 2 strands plugged it all back in and switched it on, HEY PRESTO!!!! I had it on 12.5 * 175.

It worked fine, so now I wanted to see how far I could take my cl2.5 corsair value select ddr333. I put the

mult down to 11 and then thought ok push the boat out and go straight to 185 ooooh!

It worked fine.

Then I thought what the hell 200 it's never gonna work with this cheap(er) RAM. Yeah baby, 2200 MHz @ 200fsb

woohoo. Couldn't believe it. ok ok so the timings ain't so great 6, 3, 2, 2.5 before O was running on 5, 2, 2,

2.5 (won't work at cl2

).

Ran the sandra memory benchmark and

crash. Started messing around with core voltage just incase it wasn't

enough, but still crash, then I just thought whatever and just increased the DDR reference voltage from 2.6 to 2.7 and then memory benchmark worked without a hitch.

well since I'd got the ram working stably I've now lowered the core voltage down to 1.7

and it seems fine. that's brought my cpu temp down and now my 5v rail doesn't drop so low

I think this is really great and appreciate all your help. I'm gonna run the machine like this for a while, if it's stable then I'll bump up the settings slowly until it won't go anymore.

I still really want to take the heatsink off the north bridge and apply as2 (that's what I have at the mo) but can I be bothered to take it all out of the case? Maybe. I haven't put the fan on either for the north bridge that is. But I think I need to do these two things for the north bridge before I start bumping up the settings so that I can be sure I've done what I can for the north bridge and that it'll be eliminated from the "what's holding me back" list.

Thanks again. I'll let you know more later.

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Don't extract the urine.

pIII_Man · Jul 24, 2003

I am very glad to hear its working out for you...

Touch the NB heatsink after the comp has been running for a while...if it is cool thats not good...slap some as3 or 2 on there...if its about luke warn then ok you don't need anything...if it is hot then put the fan on...and the as2 if you have the time...

What is the max speed you can stably take the core too? Have you tryed over 2.2ghz...cause if you are doing that at 1.7 then you definatly have room for improvment...

So easy to fry yet tastes so good...
Silicon: The other, other, other white meat :evil:

phsstpok · Jul 24, 2003

Let's see

First you said,

13 x 171 = 2223 Mhz

then you said,

12.5 x 175 = 2187 Mhz

and

11 x 200 = 2200 Mhz.

Looks like it was max overclock all along.

You can try more Vcore and CPU cooling but Tbreds hit that "brick wall" pretty quickly. For example, my XP1700+ does 2.1 Ghz at 1.775-1.8 volt but to get to 2.25 Ghz I need 2.15 volt. (My old Epox mobo goes up to 2.25 volt).

200 Mhz FSB? Is that a rev. 2, A7N8X?

Congrats on the mod or the "un-mod".

56K, slow and steady does not win the race on internet!Edited by phsstpok on 07/24/03 11:06 AM.

hatimh · Jul 25, 2003

The NB heatsink is between warm and hot. As long as the machine is working fine though I mught just leave the fan off, what do you think? Any advantages of putting it on even it's running ok without?

I've tried 2.3 GHz 1.85v 11.5 x 200 it runs fine. But the extra voltage means extra heat, louder fan and weaker 5v line. So I figured less heat, less noise and stronger 5v is better. I don't mind missing out on an extra 100 MHz if it means it's much quieter and feels more comfortable.

You're right, taking the mult to the next level needs a big leap in voltage.

I can take my fsb to 210 but then the mouse starts moving around jerkily the thing is I can almost be sure (correct me if I'm wrong though) that this is instability from the Nbridge I'll tell u why I think so. In the past when there's been jerky mouse movement and stuff especially when you're copying large files or whatever it has been to do with the bus mastering or something like that. I remember reading somewhere that one of things the north bridge is in charge of is the bus mastering (MCP2 I think).

At 210 the NB must be getting hot and unstable causing the jerkiness. I'm not getting the memory related crashes at that speed.

My board is a rev 1.2 but 200MHz is running fine infact the bios lets you take it to 230.

Thanks for the unmod tips

Because of the much lower heat on cpu I've lowered the rpms of the delta fan using the 7v trick.

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Don't extract the urine.Edited by hatimh on 07/24/03 05:10 PM.

phsstpok · Jul 25, 2003

I'm amazed you are even reaching those FSB speeds with PC2700 memory. Are you running it synchronous, ie 100%?

It couldn't hurt to try better northbridge cooling. Not sure how much it's going to matter getting that extra 10 Mhz FSB.

Congrats once again.

Keep a close eye on that 7V tricked fan. I've heard occasionally fans don't want to spin up on 7V.

56K, slow and steady does not win the race on internet!

pIII_Man · Jul 25, 2003

whats also amazing is its not even the good stuff...its value select...

So easy to fry yet tastes so good...
Silicon: The other, other, other white meat :evil:

phsstpok · Jul 25, 2003

Sure got his money's worth...

on the memory, Tbred, and A7N8X.

56K, slow and steady does not win the race on internet!

hatimh · Jul 25, 2003

I'm amazed myself.

The thing is, at the time I bought the RAM it was the CHEAPEST pc2700 there was too or about the same price as the other generic brands. Just last night I was running 3 instances of toast.exe and came back a few hours later and saw a bsod. I've brought it down to 199 to see how that goes.

If I'm gonna end up ringing the fsb lower than this or keep it like this, then I might consider bumping up the mult.

Do any of you use toast?

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Don't extract the urine.

pIII_Man · Jul 25, 2003

i personally run prime 95 and sisoft sandra burn in (cpu and mem benchmarks only) at the same time...if it lasts for more than 2 hours i call it stable...

So easy to fry yet tastes so good...
Silicon: The other, other, other white meat :evil:

pIII_Man · Jul 25, 2003

btw... your mem may not be causing the bsod...could possibly be the chipset...put a fan on it if you already have not...

So easy to fry yet tastes so good...
Silicon: The other, other, other white meat :evil:

hatimh · Jul 25, 2003

Should have told you that the fan was on it during the test too

so maybe I'll try slapping AS2 on there.

Erm also that fan not spinning up on 7V....well it happenned just as I was showing my friend the 7V trick and how it worked, I was watching then fan when I pressed the power switch on and it never spun I was wathcing to make sure I wired it correctly to coz I knew about the spin up failure sometimes.

I've got it on 1.725v too.

Keep you posted.

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Don't extract the urine.

I just can't figure this out!

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