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Overwhelmed noob

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October 23, 2003 10:11:25 AM

Hey all,

I am planning on building a new computer for myself. I started with buying a graphic card. Redeon 9800 pro ICE-Q.

Now I am looking into the other things. I am leaning towards a P4 3.0 Ghz and one of the new ASUS mobos P4C800-E deluxe.

I am thinking of the OZR 4000 DDR memory. The case will most surely be an Antec case with a psu around 400. There was one with a psu of 380. Im not sure that will be enough.

Those are the things Im going to buy. I have the rest like cd/dvd and harddrives from other computers. I heard alot about overclocking and when I found this board I got stunned about this guy who made his P4 2.4 Ghz run at like 3.5 Ghz.

I though that was cool as hell so now I want to overclock my computer also after I got it built up. I am not a total noob and I understand things will get hot. So I started to read up and I got overwhelmed about so much things there is one must know in order to do these things.

I found readings about fans, silver liquids, water cooling and all kinds of things. I got no clue where to start and how to figure out what I need.

Anyone feel like kicking a noob in the right direction please do so.

I need help =)

Regards
Onehouse

More about : overwhelmed noob

October 23, 2003 1:10:30 PM

I'm not really a Pentium guy, but I can give you a little cooling primer. You know that when you overclock, components like memory and CPU will heat up. In order to prevent the thermal death of these parts, you need to provide ample cooling. The CPU cooler is going to be your biggest concern. For overclocking, you'll want the most badass cooling that you can get. Liquid cooling is a great option, but it is expensive (~$250) by the time that you are done. Wicked air cooling is also an option if you have a tolerance for a little fan noise. The Thermalright SP-94 is the best P4 bare heatsink available right now (I think). Fans for most Thermalright heatsinks are sold seperately. For the most cooling power, get a 92mm Vantec Tornado. THIS FAN WILL BE VERY LOUD. You can go with a lower swapped or variable speed option if you have a desire to sleep. The liquid silver that you hear about is a thermal transfer paste that goes between the CPU and heatsink to improve the transfer of heat. Arctic Silver 3 or Arctic Silver 5 are two of the best options. Hope that helps!

BTW, bigger Power Supply = better. Always get a quality brand!
October 23, 2003 2:39:27 PM

Thanks for alot of clarifications. I got no idea at all what way to go. You say that you are no big Pentium guy. Is the common thought that AMD is better if you want to overclock? I read some amazing things about the new AMD 51-FX with 64 bit. But I never had an AMD and I guess I am one of those who are scared to try something new. But heck, if it really is better and for the same buck I might aswell go that direction. Nothing is really decided.

So the choice really is to go either with air or water. Water seems better in all ways but also more expensive. When it comes to implement. What is easiest?

Also I got another question that I can't seem to figure out. When people overclock ram they often write down numbers like 2-2-2-10 or something similar. I think I read somewhere that it is the amount of cycles that the bits go through in the ram memory or something. But really I don't understand.

There really are alot of name dropping on these forums. I feel totally lost hehe. But I hope to catch up so I atleast can get some information out of these posts. But it is hard with all words and terms I never even herd of.


Thanks for your reply btw.

Regards
Onehouse
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October 23, 2003 2:47:34 PM

What is Artic Silver5? Who sells it?
October 23, 2003 2:48:22 PM

How soon before you buy? Intel next price change 26Oct.
October 23, 2003 2:51:01 PM

Case I have Antec 1080AMG with 430 watt True Power psu. True power is their best. It comes with 3 fans you can add two more.
October 23, 2003 3:00:13 PM

I found that silver on this site:
http://heatsinkfactory.com/cgi-bin/HFAstore.pl

I am definatly going to wait for the price sink from Intel. I was lucky reading about it in another thread on the graphic cards forum. But thanks for the warning, very kind of you.

Regards
Onehouse
October 23, 2003 3:03:54 PM

...something hit me and I need to ask again =)

You guys that go with the air sollution. How do you handle the noise? Do you learn to live with it? Do you turn up the volume in your games or mp3's, movies? Do you stack away the computer in a wardrobe someplace it can make all the noise it wants? Or do you simply settle with the lesser fans that doesn't make much noise?

Is it possible to have loads of lesser fans and get the same result as one big fan but with lesser noise?

Sorry again for all noob questions.

Regards
Onehouse

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Onehouse on 10/23/03 11:05 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
October 23, 2003 5:54:27 PM

You can get Arctic Silver 5 at www.svc.com right now for 6.99 with free shipping. Concerning overclocking, both AMD and Intel have good chips. I have an XP 1700 at 2200mhz right now, and it runs great. I have seen Intel 2.6C chips at well over 3Ghz. Both chips excel defferently in different areas, but I think that Intel has faster equipment right now. The noise is not really so bad. I manage to keep my CPU below 50c under load with a 92mm adjustable Enermax fan. I turn it down when I have to sleep or am browsing the web. If I am playing games, I just turn it up. A larger fan is usually the better solution as it will push more air at a lower speed and hence have less of an ear piercing whine. As far as water cooling goes, it is a better solution, it is quieter, and allows for a greater overclock. The problem is that it is complicated to set up if you have never done it before, and failures can be catastrophic. Air cooling is just easier.
The numbers [2-2-2-10 etc] that you see are the memory timings. Lower numbers are better. The fastest timings are 2-2-2-5, but some people will try to tell you differently. These numbers just affect how quickly the CPU and RAM communicate. Hope that helps to clear some things up.
October 23, 2003 6:17:19 PM

I have 2 stock fans that I'll be replacing soon. I have 3 other fans from Enermax. Problem my Cpu temps are to high for gaming. So I ordered new Hsf. To drop temps.
October 23, 2003 11:59:54 PM

Air is definitely easier to implement from what I have seen and done. It is simplly a matter of attaching the heat sink to the cpu and the fan to the power. If you do water, and buy all the parts seperately, there is a lot to connect and get right. But then again manufacturers like Corsair and Koolance are making water cooled kits that are all self-contained making them much easier to implement. Look <A HREF="http://www6.tomshardware.com/cpu/20030616/index.html" target="_new"> here for Corsairs Hydrocool </A> and <A HREF="http://www6.tomshardware.com/cpu/20011029/index.html" target="_new"> here for Koolance </A>. These are suppose to be relatively no-brainer solutions for water cooling. I must say though that I have never tried this stuff. I want to here in the near future so I've done some looking into this stuff.

As for loud fans, get a fan controller - it will cost you around $20 to $40 american, and usually take up a 5" bay. I have three Tornado fans in a computer of mine. (two 92mm @ 110+ cubic feet per minute(cfm) and a 80mm @ 80-90 cfm) Sounds like a hairdryer on high when they are all on. But with the fan controller I can turn them down and it sounds no worse then any other computer I have ever heard.

Anyways, my two cents

<font color=blue><b>Purchase object A, install object A, curse object A, repeat...</b></font color=blue>
October 24, 2003 12:33:01 AM

Tornado's not good enough, get the 120mm delta from sidewinder, i got 1 it pushes 190CFM, at however 59DB!!! That's the perfect casefan.

-Intel PIV 2.6C @ 3.51G -Asus P4P800 -OCZ Copper 2x256 4000EL memory @ 270mhz 2.5-4-4-8 -Geforce2 MX400(i know i know) -SB audigy -120G Maxtor Diamond Plus9 S-ATA150 hdd -450 Enermax PSU
October 24, 2003 2:31:39 AM

No way. Stick a nice floor fan in there. That's the best.
October 24, 2003 2:42:31 AM

I was gonna put a 120mm in it but I would have had to mod the case or find a 80mm to 120mm converter. I not even sure it would fit 'cuz this is just a micro case. Next computer I do though I will look into that. Thanks.

Oh and by the way, one of those 92mm I got is attached to the Thermalright SLK-947U. I don't think you can put anything bigger on a heatsink.

<font color=blue><b>Purchase object A, install object A, curse object A, repeat...</b></font color=blue>
October 24, 2003 2:50:00 AM

When I built this computer I wanted to use it at LAN parties and hauling around a floor fan I don't think would cut it.

Oh by the way Overwhelmed noob since HardwareBoss brought up I have heard of people taking the sides off their cases and bolting on box fans. I imagine that would work pretty well even by watercooling standards. Not a terribly elegant solution, or a quiet one, but it would be a relatively cheap and low tech solution.

<font color=blue><b>Purchase object A, install object A, curse object A, repeat...</b></font color=blue>
October 24, 2003 7:45:18 AM

Thanks for all the help. I feel almost as a "cool" expert (ok sorry, enough of my lame jokes). =)

I got some more questions. Now I understand that there are different spots for different fans. For instance if I go with the Thermalright I would need three fans? 1 that I would put on the backside of the case for sucking in air. Another one under that, that would blow out air. Then finally one on the top of the Thermalright.

Is this correct?

If this is correct I would need to get two 120 fans for my case and one 92 fan for my Thermalright. Someone said that Thermalright could only take 92.

If I on top of this get one of those controllers for $20 to $40 I would be able to run this with no noticable noise increase. Throw in some silver between the processor and the Thermalright and I am done?

Have I missed anything or got something totally wrong? How much would I be able to overclock with this setup?

Also I wonder what are normal temperatures? What are bad temperatures etc. I understand that these temperatures change depending on the age of the equipment etc. But everyone still seem to have different opinions on what temeperature is good or bad etc.

Thanks again for all the help. This stuff is fun as hell.

Regards
Onehouse
October 24, 2003 10:58:14 AM

Try <A HREF="http://forumz.tomshardware.com/hardware/modules.php?nam..." target="_new"> this for temps </A>. Anything under fifty is good, Anything over seventy ain't so good.

As for the fans, that depends on the case. Each case has spots where you can add fans. What you want to do is draw air through the case. Usually this is accomplished by putting at least one case fan in the front of the case pulling cool air in. Then you want to put at least one on the back to push hot air out. You do not want one fan sucking air in right next to, or on top of the one sucking air out. If you do that a lot of the cool air you get from the one will just get sucked outside by the other. Think of it this way, you want the air in you case to flow over you motherboard and CPU. On my computer I have a 80mm fan in the front to pull air in, and a 92mm on the back to pull air out. The cool air gets sucked in the front, flows over the CPU and motherboard where it picks up heat and then gets sucked out the back. Simple as that.

Rule of thumb with case fans - you want to have the same number of fans pulling air in as you have fans pushing air out.

Another rule of thumb - fans pulling air in should be on the opposite side of the case from those pushing air out of the case.

As for the fan on the heatsink, a lot of heatsinks come with fans already attached. Come to think of it most heatsinks sold today have fans already attached. Whether the fans are high quality or not varies. The Thermalright I got though doesn't come with a fan - you have to buy it seperate. I on this computer I didn't care about noise so I got the fan that could move the most air that could still fit on the heat sink. Look at the <A HREF="http://www.thermalright.com" target="_new"> Thermalright website </A>. They have the specifics on their heatsinks and also the have a guide (with pictures) to install their heat sink - take a look at that and you will understand a little better. Also take a look at <A HREF="http://www.overclockers.com" target="_new"> Overclockers.com </A>. They rate and review heatsinks and watercooled systems.

As for the controller, all they do is turn down the speed of the fans. Turning down the speed means less noise but also less air and less cooling. These controllers give you a knob that you can use to turn down the fans when you want it quiet (ie late nights or just surfing the web) and allows you to turn up the fans when you need that extra cooling (ie gaming like first-person-shooters or ripping DVDs) Take look at the <A HREF="http://www.tomshardware.com/consumer/20030922/index.htm..." target="_new">review </A> Tom's Hardware did of fan controllers - it will give you a better idea of what I am talking about.

As for overclocking, dunno. That depends on factors in addition to how cool you PC is. I personally just like having a cool running machine and don't do too much overclocking. At least not yet. Hopefully someone else can answer that question for you.

Anyways, probably that is more then what you asked for - keep looking around Toms and other places for advice. That way you get a better picture and a better idea on what you want to do.

<font color=blue><b>Purchase object A, install object A, curse object A, repeat...</b></font color=blue>
October 24, 2003 11:05:36 AM

Also, not all (actually most) cases can not fit a 120mm fan - most can only fit 80mm fans. Before you buy the case fans check out the case and see what it can take. Either that or buy the case first and then see what you can do. I have seen people modifying their cases so that they can take bigger or more fans - but that requires cutting into the case which is something you do at your own risk.

<font color=blue><b>Purchase object A, install object A, curse object A, repeat...</b></font color=blue>
October 24, 2003 12:45:11 PM

Thanks alot for all the info. Way more than I asked for so now I don't need to counter ask since you coverd all. You shouldn't have "newbie" in your title. You know way more than me and I am a newbie.

First stop for me will go get a case that will fit all this with a nice PSU somewhere around 400 or over.

Then I will go from there.

The Thermalright will fit on the ASUS P4C800 -E Deluxe mobo? Also from reading the instruction on how to fit the Thermalright they say that in one step you need to apply some greece. Is that what you would swap to the silver liqud 5 if you use that instead? Or would you use both silver and that greece they speak of? Or are the greece and liquid used on different spots?

I keep saying thanks but here it comes again. You guys are really helpful. Great community. Thanks for all the help.

Regards
Onehouse
October 24, 2003 1:06:05 PM

Buy some Artic Silver 5 or Cremeque. Both are a think white substance that u spread over the heatsink with a card. When putting this on make sure not to touch it or contaminate it, and make the thinest layer possible.

You will only need one tube and even with one tube you could mess up 28 times before you ran out.

AMD Barton 2500+ @ 3200+ speeds
A7N8X Deluxe
Corsair Matched 256x2 PC3200 w/ Platinum Heat Spreaders
ATI Radeon 9600pro
Thermaltake X3
Western Digital 80 gig 7200 HD
October 24, 2003 9:37:39 PM

Yup you put artic silver in place of the thermal grease stuff. Artic silver allows for better heat transfer between the cpu and the heatsink.

As for the motherboard / heatsink combo, I don't know. Ask around here if anyone has that combination. If the heatsink says that it should fit all pentium motherboards then it should. But then again in order for me to fit my SLK-947 on my shuttle board I had to file off some of the mounting bracket in order to get it to fit. I guess this part is kind of hit and miss - but I imagine it should be alright.

And your welcome!

<font color=blue><b>Purchase object A, install object A, curse object A, repeat...</b></font color=blue>
October 27, 2003 8:33:13 AM

Oki, thx for all.

I got my plan together and I am thinking of starting to buy some of my equipment in the forthcoming days. Im not sure where to buy the artic 5 grease yet. I live in Sweden and all so if anyone else know how to get hooked up with these things in Sweden please let me know.

I will post how it goes and probably some future questions that I will run into.

Regards
Onehouse
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