OC'ing with PC3200 RAM

[Yangster]

I just read the P4 OC guide, and I realised I'm in a bit of trouble. I was planning on getting a P4 2.6 800FSB, and a Kingston 3200 2*256MB RAM. I was hoping to overclock the 2.6 to 3.2 or more, but as I can't change the multiplier, that would mean I need to OC the FSB to 250Mhz... Then, I would have trouble synchronizing the RAM with the CPU wouldn't I...

Anything above 3200 is out of the question. I can't find any 256MB versions, so if I want Dual channel RAM, I'd have to get a Gig of RAM... The only 512MB 3700 Twin is double the Kingston 512 ($120AUD more)...

But I've thought of another option... What if I get a 3200 RAM, but a 533FSB CPU? If I don't OC the RAM, I can get the CPU to 3.9Ghz... But that is if I can get the 133Mhz CPU to 200Mhz... Is that possible if I just use the built in heatsink and fan?

So, I guess I have 4 options... Could someone please tell me which would provide a better result?

Option 1: 133Mhz CPU + 400Mhz RAM. Try to OC the crap out of the CPU.
Option 2: 200Mhz CPU + Kingmax Single Channel 512MB PC3500 RAM. OC the crap out of both and try to sync.
Option 3: 200Mhz CPU + 400Mhz RAM. OC the crap out of the RAM and sync the CPU with it.
Option 4: 200Mhz CPU + 400Mhz RAM. OC the crap out of both and forget about the sync.

Which would be the better option? I'm leaning towards 3 and 4 because I don't want to spend $50+AUD on extra fans and heatsinks.

 

[Johanthegnarler]

My votes for number 4.

p4 2.8 533fsb
intel mobo
1gb rdram pc 800
radeon9800 pro
120gb seagate s-ata

 

[HardWareBoss]

Now using Kingston HyperX PC3500 2X512 with my 2.4C OCed to 3.0 using 5:4.

 

[Yangster]

OK, thanks.

HardwareBoss, yeah, I would like faster RAM, but if I fork out another $100 or so on faster RAM, I would have to give up on something else, like 5.1 surround sound. I'll try Google searching prices, but currently, I'd be paying more for the RAM than the CPU!

So, with the Kingston Dual 256MB PC3200 RAM, what's a reasonable OC expectation for the RAM with just the built in HeatSync and fan? Would it be bad if one RAM stick ran at 430Mhz, whilst the other at 415Mhz?

Thanks.

 

[Crashman]

Contact Raneye systems outside of Melborne via internet, tell Freddy (username AzzA) that you want the best deal he can find on Corsair PC3700 or PC4000. Tell him Crashman refered you.

If you do that, he'll give you a quote below list price. If you don't, I'll come looking for you!

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>

 

[Yangster]

Uh huh... So, I guess you've got connections with them eh?
Where is this Raneye shop? I've found their website, but I can't find the street in the Melways... I know it's in Vic, but which suburb and town? Is it in Melbourne?

Hey, if it's in Melbourne, I'll buy everything from that store, as long as they beat/match the price! If it's far from Melbourne, I'm not sure... If something goes kaput, I don't want to have to spend money to send it somewhere...

BTW, I am already heavily over my budget, so even if he does give me a really good deal, I don't think I can afford it. Unless he gives me a better deal on everything else too... Then I'll get everything from him and recommend the store to all my friends .

EDIT: Wait, how do I contact Freddy? Is it the sales@... email or am I meant to post at the forum? Please tell me it's in Melbourne...

EDIT2: Man, where is this Wonthaggi? It's not even in the Atlas!

EDIT3: Finally managed to find Wonthaggi in the Melways, I wasn't looking far enough... Sheesh, it is far. At least 3 hours drive. 6 hours there and back!

Tell you what, if Freddy can give me good deals on everything I want and makes the savings worth the petrol I use up, I'll get everything from there.<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Yangster on 01/14/04 01:59 AM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[Yangster]

Alright, if I get good RAM, I'll be exceeding my strict budget by around 5-7%. Unfortunately, this budget is unnegotiable. My parents are very strict on it now, I've already upped it 20%, and any more is definitely out of the question unfortunately.

I've emailed Raneye Systems, asking them if they could help. And yes, I mentioned your name.

If they can help by slightly reducing the prices (fingers crossed) so I can keep to my budget, I have a few RAM choices...

512MB Corsair Twinx-3700 for $225. (CAS not stated, so do I assume it's 3-4-4-8?)
2x256MB Corsair 4000 3-4-4-8 for $2x145=$290
2x256MB Corsair 3500 CL2 for $2x125=$250

Suggestions on which one? I'm just praying that I can meet my budget, otherwise, I'd have to settle for the Kingston. Only 5% off, yet so far...

 

[Crashman]

I met this guy on IRC a few years back. I was just closing my shop, while he was just adding the PC business to his dad's security business at the same location. He's a great guy and very anxious for his business to expand. It's grown to the point where he actually buys some products in bulk and resells them to local retailers!

Anyway, his biggest problem is that he can't keep his price list current. He's willing to beat anybody's price down there. And he has some of the best suppliers in the business.

He also ships as far away as Indonesia.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>

 

[Yangster]

Hmm, that is a very big problem actually. I know that most people just quickly look at the prices, and if they are higher, they ignore that shop. I know when I was Google searching for cheap prices, I'd bumped into Raneye Systems a couple of times, but as the prices were too high, I never took much notice. Thing is, no one else knows he's willing to beat any price... So although he's willing to sell them cheap, others think he's selling stuff at too high a price.

I might be able to help with updating the prices, especially on the weekends and holidays. Other times I'm flat out doing homework, but if he wanted to, I could probably help him update the prices on a weekly basis.

This is particularly interesting, because after I get this computer, I was planning to take on a hobby and make some pocket money by helping friends and neighbours buy computers cheap. I'd make a slight profit, and they'd save heaps from buying pre-made systems. Which brings to an interesting point. If Freddy is willing, and I get a few customers, he could get me fairly cheap parts, which means my customers think they're saving absolutely heaps, I'd get some pocket money, and more people would be buying from Raneye Systems. Win, Win, Win!

So you think he could help me get within my budget? Because I definitely need to have a good computer to get started. I need it to show some friends and neighbours that I got a really good computer much cheaper than pre-made, and get them to ask their neighbours and friends if they wanted a new computer. If so, I'd be willing to help them get a computer cheaper and better than pre-made. Else, no-one'd believe me... So, Win, Win, Win!

What do you think?

EDIT: I just received a message saying my email to Raneye Systems couldn't be sent. Must be my email playing up again. Anyway, can you please ask Freddy whether he's willing to help me get within my budget? And also whether he thinks the above's a good idea?

Thanks a lot!<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Yangster on 01/14/04 04:13 AM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[Yangster]

Crashman, I've tried emailing Raneye Systems several times now, every time, I get an email saying that it could not be sent... Yet, I can send emails to other people.

Maybe there's something wrong with the email account? Does AzzA have another email address? Or do you think I should ask him at the forums?

Thanks for your help.

 

[Crashman]

You can try getting ahold of him on MSN messanger, aaron@satlink.com.au.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>

 

[Yangster]

Should I email him there? I just formatted my computer a month ago, and I don't have messenger any more.

Maybe it's something to do with my email. I can send an email to myself, my parents, a different email account, but whenever I try sending it to Raneye or AzzA, I get the following message (with different addresses of course):




This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification.

Delivery to the following recipients failed.

aaron@satlink.com.au

Original-Envelope-Id: -
Reporting-MTA: dns;mail.scotchmel.vic.edu.au
Received-From-MTA: dns;scotchmel.vic.edu.au
Arrival-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 10:53:28 +1100

Original-Recipient: rfc822;aaron@satlink.com.au
Final-Recipient: rfc822;aaron@satlink.com.au
Action: failed
Status: 5.7.1
Diagnostic-Code: smtp;550 5.7.1 Rejected: 203.94.130.235 listed at list.dsbl.org




I'm worried about the Rejected:... thing. Is it something to do with my computer or theirs?<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Yangster on 01/14/04 06:59 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[Crashman]

I think there's something wrong with your mail system! His mail system only polls for mail every 5 minutes though. Perhaps you have a way for him to contact you?

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>

 

[Yangster]

I'm not sure... I don't think it would be considered a local call, all the way out there... Plus, I don't think he'd be the one to answer... I'll try through my parents email, see how that goes.

EDIT: Wait, is he called Aaron or Freddy?? If it's Aaron, then I could try tech@raneye.com.au, right?<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Yangster on 01/14/04 09:10 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[Yangster]

I just contacted him the day before yesterday. Actually, he can only match 2 of the prices I'd found, one of them being the Corsair RAM. He told me he is unable to reduce the price anymore, and that some of the prices I had found were lower than what he got them at!

Anyway, so that definitely means I cannot get everything that I wanted in that budget. Now I really need you guys' help on deciding what to keep and what to change.

Firstly, if I intend to overclock my CPU to 3.2Ghz, I'd need 1000FSB... But my RAM wouldn't be able to get that high, so no sync, unless I get 3700 and 4000 RAM. Say my RAM runs at 2x400Mhz, and my CPU at 4x250Mhz, does that mean the bandwidth is only 4/5 of what it would be if there was sync? How much would this affect the performance?

If I do get good RAM, then I would need spend $100 less on something else. Which means average 2.1 speakers instead of average 5.1 + Audigy sound card.

I guess this is my question. Is getting faster RAM for $100 extra worth it? Or should I get 5.1 instead. I play a lot of games (not sure if they have 5.1) and watch a few DVD's... I am not that concerned about a tiny unnoticeable speed gain. I'm more concerned about value for money... So what do you think? Better RAM or 5.1?

Anyone recommend any good 2.1 speakers under $125 AUD?

I do have one other option, which I am extremely unsure of. AMD CPU instead of P4. The AMD prices have absolutely plummeted. XP3200+400FSB (is this 2x400Mhz?) for only $323. The Athlon64 3200 is only $450!!

Anyway, why I even slightly considered AMD is because the motherboard has integrated 5.1 sound. However, I don't understand AMD's much at all. I know the XP number is meant to be the equivalent or something. Does that mean an AMD 3200 400FSB has speed/performance equivalent to a 3.2Ghz P4?

How do you convert between the actual frequency and the XP number? How can you tell if the AMD still allows you to change the multiplier(by date??)? If it allows you to change the multiplier, I'm considering it. If it allows multiplier change, then which AMD should I get (best value for money and overclocking potential)?

I read about Bartons and Thoroughbreds. Would all AMD's 2700+ and over be Bartons then? If I get an AMD with 333FSB, would 3200 (dual) RAM be fine? What about with the 400FSB?

Getting an AMD (especially with multiplier unlocked) would mean I wouldn't need such faster RAM right? But I'm not sure about AMD's still. You need to clear the CMOS. They've got weird numbering. And they didn't do very well in the benchmark tests against the Intels...

So, what do I do? 1, 2 or 3?

 

[Crashman]

Ahh, well, you could use the onboard 5.1 sound for a while. It's really fairly decent.

Now, if you REALLY wanted to save money, you could go with an AMD settup. PC3200, the lowest latency you can afford. Take a look at the Abit NF7-S, this board has the nForce APU which is more powerfull than the Audigy sound processor. These sound systems get knocked down by some sound enthusiast for having cheap codecs, but you can use digital speakers to bypass the codecs and get your sound directly from the nForce APU.

In the U.S. the NF7-S and IS7 are in the same price range. But you could also get an XP2500+ and easily overclock that to 3200+ speed simply by raising the clock to 200MHz from the stock 166MHz. This implies the use of PC3200, but that's definatly cheaper than PC3700 or PC4000!

My friend says you're dead set on a Hitachi drive, these are the former IBM Deskstar drives that have earned the name "DeathStar" in the community! I would like to recommend a Western Digital WD800-JB (80GB), JB being the "special edition" drives with 8MB cache and 3 year warranty.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>

 

[Yangster]

Actually, I'm not dead set on the Hitachi. Just that I don't need 120G I don't think. Maxtor's 80G's only have 1 year warranty. And all the 80G WD's I could find are about as expensive as the 120G WD, around the same price as the Hitachi. And I want SATA not because of the 8MB Cache, but because it allows more air flow, etc... So, I preferred the quality (Hitachi) over the quantity (WD)... DeathStar, is that good or bad???

About the AMD, I'll need to do a lot more research. Especially about those things that confuse me. I have a friend at my dad's work that can help me.

But between the other 2 options, what do you think?

 

[Yangster]

Woah, hold on a minute, are you saying that the Asus P4P800Dlx supports 5.1 sound even without a sound card? If so, what about the decoding stuff, would it do that??

 

[Crashman]

All the popular boards are comming with 5.1 codecs, they call them 6 channel because the .1 (subwoofer) gets it's own channel. These codecs rely on the CPU for sound processing, except on boards that use the nForce APU.

P4P800 Deluxe, non-deluxe, all versions have 6 channel sound, as do the Abit boards. You're trying to save money, if you stick with a P4 I suggest the Abit IS7.

BTW, Asus uses 3 analog connectors and a digital connector. The analog connectors can be configured in software to turn the Mic and Lin In jacks as Rear and Center Sub for 5.1 analog using cheap speakers. Or you can use digital. Abit gives you 5 analog connections plus digital, so you don't sacrifice your inputs for 5.1 analog sound.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>

 

[Crashman]

Ask in the hard drive forum about the IBM Deskstar drives, Hitachi is producing them now under their own brand, that is the drive you're looking at.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>

 

[Yangster]

1 x PS/2 Keyboard, 1 x PS/2 mouse
1 x Printer Port, 1 x COM port
1 x S/PDIF In connector, 1 x S/PDIF Out connector
1 x Audio connector (Front Speaker, Line-in, Mic-in)
1 x Audio connector (Center/Sub, Surround Speaker)
2 x USB 2.0, 1 x IEEE 1394a (Optional)
2 x USB 2.0, 1 x RJ-45 LAN Connector

These are the back panel ports for the Abit IS7... Which are the 5 audio ports?

 

[Crashman]

1 x Audio connector (Front Speaker, Line-in, Mic-in) has 3 ports!

1 x Audio connector (Center/Sub, Surround Speaker) has 2 ports!

I don't know why you'd ask me such a silly question when you know I only tell the truth, <A HREF="http://www6.tomshardware.com/motherboard/20030707/images/abit2_front.jpg" target="_new">Here's a picture of the Abit IS7 rear panel</A>.

Note that Asus only offers 3 analog ports and no provisions for digital input. To use 5.1 on the Asus, you have to configure the microphone and line input ports as outputs, sacrificing your inputs!

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>

 

[Yangster]

Oh no, don't get me wrong. I wasn't saying you were lying to me. I just thought that the 1 x Audio thing was only 1 port! I was afraid you were referring to a different IS7 (like an SE or something) and that if I got it and it turned out to be the wrong one, I'd be screwed .

One question about the Abit though. 3+2=5, yes, but 2 of those 5 are inputs are they not (Line-in, Mic-in)? Or am I mistaken again???

With the Asus, I'd be getting a Creative 5200, which has it's own headphone jack. Say I get a headphone with a microphone, I'd still be able to input right? I'm not too sure of what the line-in is. I don't think I've ever used these much at all. Is it the thing that allows you to connect a hi-fi system to your computer (sorry for another silly question)?

I'm not sure I'd use those inputs in the near future. Probably when I do, I'd be getting a new motherboard with the next generation cpu anyway.

Anyway, the Asus and Abit cost the same, because the Abit isn't available in a really cheap shop. So, I'm trying to decide which one. My largest concern is OC'ing and features that I need.

Thanks for your help Crashman. Don't take me wrong. I believe you, but I'm just confused and ignorant on a few points. I'm also trying to decide between AMD and Intel (I'm asking about it in the CPU section).

 

[Crashman]

It has 5 analog connections, 3 are outputs:
1.) Front speakers (Right/Left)
2.) Rear speakers (Right/Left)
3.) Center/Sub.

You see, those are stereo connectors. It is standard for motherboards to use stereo minjacks. So 3 of the connectors make 5.1 analog sound.

The other 2 connectors are Line In and Microphone In.

So the IS7 has 5 ananlog connetors, 2 are inputs, 3 are outputs, and the 3 outputs support analog 5.1 sound.

Compare the Asus boards that only have 3 ports total. The can be used for 5.1, but that means configuring the two inputs as outputs, so you no longer have any inputs. That's why the Abit configuration is better than the Asus.

And you can use dital connectors instead. Abit outputs 5.1 sound via the digital optical output. Asus outputs 5.1 sound via the digital coaxial output. But while Asus doesn't offer digital INPUTS, Abit does!

I don't know what the creative 5200 is. Line-In can be used to input any sound, such as from a hifi, tape deck, MP3 player, etc. Microphone is a line in with adjustable gain.

OK, well, serveral members of this forum are using the IS7 at 250MHz FSB (that's 1000MHz data rate using Quad Data Rate, based on an overclocked 800MHz data rate P4).

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>

 

[Yangster]

OK, thanks. I just read the test results of the 24 motherboards, which included the Asus and the Abit.

Just one thing I'm concerned about. Would I possibly need an AGP Pro slot?

Finally, I saw the results of the benchmarks. The Asus made the FSB and frequency slower, whilst the Abit made it slightly faster, but both were still near the bottom. The Abit also preformed slightly worse at games, video and audio.

Which brings me to this. I read that the MSI Neo2 series uses Dynamic Overclocking. I'm really not sure whether this is a good thing or bad. I mean, although it performed well in those benchmarks, I'm afraid it'll affect OC potential. Will it?

If not, the Neo2-S is worth a consideration. At only $115, I can get a sound card (although I'll have to get a LAN card) if I get an 80G Maxtor or WD. Should I get this instead???

Thanks for your help. Really appreciate it.