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On charging batteries

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Anonymous
June 19, 2005 11:42:56 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

I want to know the definitive answer to the age old question: Do you charge
your rechargeable batteries even when only used for a day and are still full
of life. Or do you wait until they are dead and then recharge?

My Video Camera comes with a charging device that will fully discharge the
batteries first, then load them with fresh juice. This seems to be a clear
indication that rechargeable batteries should be drained first. Anybody here
an expert on this?

Wayne

More about : charging batteries

Anonymous
June 20, 2005 1:08:18 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

>I want to know the definitive answer to the age old question:
>Do you charge your rechargeable batteries even when only used
>for a day and are still full of life. Or do you wait until
>they are dead and then recharge?
>
>My Video Camera comes with a charging device that will fully
>discharge the batteries first, then load them with fresh juice.
>This seems to be a clear indication that rechargeable batteries
>should be drained first. Anybody here an expert on this?
>
>Wayne

It depends on the battery.

My Treo 650 manual says "Charge your smartphone whenever you
are at your desk or charge it overnight. The Li-Ion battery
in your smartphone has a much longer useful life when it is
topped off frequently versus charging it after it is fully
drained."

You can also attach a generator to one of your Windjammers
so you can recharge your phone while playing to improve the
battery's useful life even further.
June 20, 2005 1:34:00 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Why?

"Treo Leo" <treoleo@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:69lte.6285$hK3.3324@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> The Li-Ion battery
> in your smartphone has a much longer useful life when it is
> topped off frequently versus charging it after it is fully
> drained."
Related resources
Anonymous
June 20, 2005 2:34:42 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"Wayne Lundberg" <Waynelund@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
news:4Vjte.338334$cg1.275445@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:

> I want to know the definitive answer to the age old question: Do you
> charge your rechargeable batteries even when only used for a day and
> are still full of life. Or do you wait until they are dead and then
> recharge?

The days of fully discharging Nickel-Cadmium (Ni-Cd) batteries is, mostly,
a thing of the past. Even modern Ni-Cd batteries have new chemicals in
them to prevent, or at least reduce, their perpensity to memorize their
discharge floors.

Modern cellphones now come with much more efficient battery packs,
specifically Lithium-Ion (Li-Ion) battery packs which is a totally
different technology than Ni-Cds. They have no memory problems. Fully
discharging them doesn't extend their lives. Unfortunately, Li-Ion
batteries SELF-discharge quite rapidly to completely dead. This doesn't
make them a good battery choice for the emergency cellphone not registered
and stored in a car for dialing 911. In a couple of months, they're really
dead, but will fully recharge, rapidly. No harm is done to Li-Ion
batteries that are run down 10% then recharged by their special charging
programs which are required of this technology. NEVER SHORT THEM AS THEY
WILL EXPLODE AS SOME CELLPHONE USERS HAVE FOUND OUT FIRST HAND. Their case
design usually prevents or impedes shorting to make them safer.

Other types of batteries used in portable equipment (like old bagphones on
AMPS) are just jellied versions of your car battery called gelcells, the
same lead-lead-acid batteries that start your car. Lead acid batteries
actually last LOTS longer if you NEVER discharge them! Your car recharges
them instantly as soon as the engine starts. They will hold their charge a
very long time, but will DISINTEGRATE if you discharge them deeply
repeatedly, or deeply discharge them but don't recharge them for a period
of time. We use large gelcells, AGM (absorbed glass mat, which isn't done
by marketing magic) and "deep cycle" lead-acid batteries on yachts. Rule
of thumb is to NEVER discharge these batteries below 50% of their total
capacity. A 400 amp-hour would not be discharged past 200 amp-hours. To
go further is suicide. If you never discharge them past 90% capacity (a
400 AH discharged only 40 AH to 360AH) they will last many, many years.
This makes lead-acid batteries great "float" batteries for emergency power.

Nickel-Metal Hydride (Ni-MH) batteries, which have largely displaced
troublesome Ni-CD batteries have no memory, either, and deep cycling them
seems to have little effect on their lifespan. This makes them great
batteries for compact portable equipment, like your MP3 player. It's quite
hard to destroy them. Their awful prices have come down to a more
reasonable level in recent years, too.

In short, you never need to deep cycle your cellphone. I got 2 years 3
months out of my last Li-Ion battery in a V60i from Verizon. I paid $21
for the much-larger-capacity aftermarket battery I'm using now, with the
turtle-backshell to fit it. Both these batteries are fully charged on my
nightstand every night....ready for tomorrow's load.

>
> My Video Camera comes with a charging device that will fully discharge
> the batteries first, then load them with fresh juice. This seems to be
> a clear indication that rechargeable batteries should be drained
> first. Anybody here an expert on this?

Nickel Cadmium battery pack? I'm sure it's not a gelcell..(c;

Recharge but do not deepcycle Li-Ions:
http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm
"A lithium-ion battery provides 300-500 discharge/charge cycles. The
battery prefers a partial rather than a full discharge. Frequent full
discharges should be avoided when possible. Instead, charge the battery
more often or use a larger battery. There is no concern of memory when
applying unscheduled charges."
Actually, they come with circuitry that PREVENTS you from fully discharging
them...(c; That's why your cellphone suddenly shuts off before the lights
dim....

http://www.powerstream.com/li.htm
http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/adn008....
http://www.apple.com/batteries/
http://www.fujitsu.com/emea/services/microelectronics/l...
thium.html <<<special ICs to charge Lithiums.


Just when you think YOUR battery is cool...here's one that recharges to 80%
capacity in SIXTY SECONDS and after 1000 discharge cycles still has 99% of
its capacity from Toshiba in Japan! Nanoparticle technology, real cool.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/03/29/toshiba_li-ion_...
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0503/05032903tosh1minbatt....


--
Larry

You know you've had a rough night when you wake up and your outlined in
chalk.
Anonymous
June 20, 2005 2:36:33 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"susan" <susanl@penn.com> wrote in
news:cxlte.6290$hK3.388@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net:

> Why?
>

See references in my post to the original poster....
The IC in the battery prevents you from deep cycling it to destroy it.
The less deep you discharge a Li-Ion, the longer it lasts!

--
Larry

You know you've had a rough night when you wake up and your outlined in
chalk.
Anonymous
June 20, 2005 4:30:33 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

Because that's the chemical characteristics of Li-Ion batteries...
They have an IC in the battery to control charging and won't
overcharge. Li-Ion has no memory effect.

What can be seen as a memory effect is that the IC acts
as a "gas guage" to keep track of the battery's state of charge.
Over time (and charge/discharge cycles) this "gas guage" can
get out of sync with the actual state of the battery. For example,
the "gas guage" thinks the battery is completely charged when
it is actually only half charged. The battery doesn't last as long
even though the charger says it was completely charged up.
Cycling the battery in these instances will again sync up the
"gas guage" with the actual state of the battery. So the symptoms
are similar but there is/was no chemical memory effect.

Bottom line. Don't hesitate to charge Li-Ion batteries at any
time even if they are only partially discharged. Don't bother
cycling your battery on regular intervals as this simply wastes
a small portion of it's finite life. Do try cycling it if you notice
significant reduction of use on a full charge. I cycled my phone
battery once after 1.5 years and I usually drop it on the charger
every night about 70% full. Sometimes it gets plugged in (powered
USB cable for data transfer/syncing) multiple times per day for
short periods.

-Quick

susan wrote:
> Why?
>
> "Treo Leo" <treoleo@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:69lte.6285$hK3.3324@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>> The Li-Ion battery
>> in your smartphone has a much longer useful life when it is
>> topped off frequently versus charging it after it is fully
>> drained."
Anonymous
June 20, 2005 9:06:30 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

In article <cxlte.6290$hK3.388@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
susanl@penn.com says...
> "Treo Leo" <treoleo@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:69lte.6285$hK3.3324@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> > The Li-Ion battery
> > in your smartphone has a much longer useful life when it is
> > topped off frequently versus charging it after it is fully
> > drained."
>
> Why?

It's the nature of LiIon battery chemistry. All types of batteries have
a limited number of charge/discharge cycles before they die altogether.
For LiIon chemistry the number of such cycles that the battery can
undergo varies logarithmically with the depth of discharge. So, a
battery will be able to undergo many more charge/discharge cycles if it
is only slightly discharged before recharging.

For example, a LiIon battery that undergoes two cycles where it is
discharged a quarter of the way before recharging will last longer than
one that undergoes a single cycle where it is discharged halfway, even
though the total power delivered is the same (2 times 1/4 capacity
equals 1 times 1/2 capacity). In the limit, habitually running the
battery completely flat before recharging will very severely reduce its
useful life.


(note top-posting corrected)
Anonymous
June 20, 2005 6:25:28 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"Quick" <Quick7135-news@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:J6ote.197$N22.39@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
> Cycling the battery in these instances will again sync up the
> "gas guage" with the actual state of the battery. So the symptoms
> are similar but there is/was no chemical memory effect.

So by "Cycling", you mean frequent charging? My battery has developed the
conditions you mentioned & isn't nearly a year old.
Anonymous
June 20, 2005 6:25:29 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

RichC wrote:
> "Quick" <Quick7135-news@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:J6ote.197$N22.39@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
>> Cycling the battery in these instances will again sync
>> up the "gas guage" with the actual state of the battery.
>> So the symptoms are similar but there is/was no chemical
>> memory effect.
>
> So by "Cycling", you mean frequent charging? My battery
> has developed the conditions you mentioned & isn't nearly
> a year old.

No, "cycling" as in "conditioning" where you run your battery
all the way down in the device and then completely recharge.

-Quick
Anonymous
June 20, 2005 6:25:30 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"Quick" <quick7135-news@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in
news:1119289569.975827@sj-nntpcache-3:

> No, "cycling" as in "conditioning" where you run your battery
> all the way down in the device and then completely recharge.
>
> -Quick
>

Not true. The Lithium-Ion IC chargers inside the phone monitor battery
voltage, looking for 4.2V/cell first, then fix that voltage and look for
the charge current level to drop to a preset limit, at which point the
charge is terminated. This has nothing to do with any kind of "timer" that
has to be reset, whatsoever.

Did you ever notice how long it takes the display in any lithium-ion
battery powered device to show you the charge state when you boot it up?
This is caused by the same charging IC watching that voltage for X seconds
to watch it for the drop caused by the load current passing through its
shunt resistor.

There's no "timer" to reset. NEVER, EVER try to discharge fully any
Lithium Battery. Its IC will protect it from such discharges if it's made
correctly. It's not an old Nickel-Cadmium with the memory problem. Deep
cycling destroys them. "Conditioning" is just sales bullshit left over
from the Ni-Cd days to boost you with a charger gadget you don't
need....made to sell to the same people buying the stick-on antenna
boosters in the malls...(c;

See my other post for good webpage references about Li-Ion battery
maintenance.

--
Larry

You know you've had a rough night when you wake up and your outlined in
chalk.
Anonymous
June 20, 2005 7:52:29 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

What a great idea!!!

Thanks

Wayne

"Treo Leo" <treoleo@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:69lte.6285$hK3.3324@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> >I want to know the definitive answer to the age old question:
> >Do you charge your rechargeable batteries even when only used
> >for a day and are still full of life. Or do you wait until
> >they are dead and then recharge?
> >
> >My Video Camera comes with a charging device that will fully
> >discharge the batteries first, then load them with fresh juice.
> >This seems to be a clear indication that rechargeable batteries
> >should be drained first. Anybody here an expert on this?
> >
> >Wayne
>
> It depends on the battery.
>
> My Treo 650 manual says "Charge your smartphone whenever you
> are at your desk or charge it overnight. The Li-Ion battery
> in your smartphone has a much longer useful life when it is
> topped off frequently versus charging it after it is fully
> drained."
>
> You can also attach a generator to one of your Windjammers
> so you can recharge your phone while playing to improve the
> battery's useful life even further.
Anonymous
June 20, 2005 7:59:18 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"Larry W4CSC" <noone@home.com> wrote in message
news:Xns967AE5E1B70B0w4csc@63.223.7.253...
> "Wayne Lundberg" <Waynelund@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
> news:4Vjte.338334$cg1.275445@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
>
> > I want to know the definitive answer to the age old question: Do you
> > charge your rechargeable batteries even when only used for a day and
> > are still full of life. Or do you wait until they are dead and then
> > recharge?
>
> The days of fully discharging Nickel-Cadmium (Ni-Cd) batteries is, mostly,
> a thing of the past. Even modern Ni-Cd batteries have new chemicals in
> them to prevent, or at least reduce, their perpensity to memorize their
> discharge floors.
>
> Modern cellphones now come with much more efficient battery packs,
> specifically Lithium-Ion (Li-Ion) battery packs which is a totally
> different technology than Ni-Cds. They have no memory problems. Fully
> discharging them doesn't extend their lives. Unfortunately, Li-Ion
> batteries SELF-discharge quite rapidly to completely dead. This doesn't
> make them a good battery choice for the emergency cellphone not registered
> and stored in a car for dialing 911. In a couple of months, they're
really
> dead, but will fully recharge, rapidly. No harm is done to Li-Ion
> batteries that are run down 10% then recharged by their special charging
> programs which are required of this technology. NEVER SHORT THEM AS THEY
> WILL EXPLODE AS SOME CELLPHONE USERS HAVE FOUND OUT FIRST HAND. Their
case
> design usually prevents or impedes shorting to make them safer.
>
> Other types of batteries used in portable equipment (like old bagphones on
> AMPS) are just jellied versions of your car battery called gelcells, the
> same lead-lead-acid batteries that start your car. Lead acid batteries
> actually last LOTS longer if you NEVER discharge them! Your car recharges
> them instantly as soon as the engine starts. They will hold their charge
a
> very long time, but will DISINTEGRATE if you discharge them deeply
> repeatedly, or deeply discharge them but don't recharge them for a period
> of time. We use large gelcells, AGM (absorbed glass mat, which isn't done
> by marketing magic) and "deep cycle" lead-acid batteries on yachts. Rule
> of thumb is to NEVER discharge these batteries below 50% of their total
> capacity. A 400 amp-hour would not be discharged past 200 amp-hours. To
> go further is suicide. If you never discharge them past 90% capacity (a
> 400 AH discharged only 40 AH to 360AH) they will last many, many years.
> This makes lead-acid batteries great "float" batteries for emergency
power.
>
> Nickel-Metal Hydride (Ni-MH) batteries, which have largely displaced
> troublesome Ni-CD batteries have no memory, either, and deep cycling them
> seems to have little effect on their lifespan. This makes them great
> batteries for compact portable equipment, like your MP3 player. It's
quite
> hard to destroy them. Their awful prices have come down to a more
> reasonable level in recent years, too.
>
> In short, you never need to deep cycle your cellphone. I got 2 years 3
> months out of my last Li-Ion battery in a V60i from Verizon. I paid $21
> for the much-larger-capacity aftermarket battery I'm using now, with the
> turtle-backshell to fit it. Both these batteries are fully charged on my
> nightstand every night....ready for tomorrow's load.
>
> >
> > My Video Camera comes with a charging device that will fully discharge
> > the batteries first, then load them with fresh juice. This seems to be
> > a clear indication that rechargeable batteries should be drained
> > first. Anybody here an expert on this?
>
> Nickel Cadmium battery pack? I'm sure it's not a gelcell..(c;
>
> Recharge but do not deepcycle Li-Ions:
> http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm
> "A lithium-ion battery provides 300-500 discharge/charge cycles. The
> battery prefers a partial rather than a full discharge. Frequent full
> discharges should be avoided when possible. Instead, charge the battery
> more often or use a larger battery. There is no concern of memory when
> applying unscheduled charges."
> Actually, they come with circuitry that PREVENTS you from fully
discharging
> them...(c; That's why your cellphone suddenly shuts off before the lights
> dim....
>
> http://www.powerstream.com/li.htm
> http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/adn008....
> http://www.apple.com/batteries/
>
http://www.fujitsu.com/emea/services/microelectronics/l...
> thium.html <<<special ICs to charge Lithiums.
>
>
> Just when you think YOUR battery is cool...here's one that recharges to
80%
> capacity in SIXTY SECONDS and after 1000 discharge cycles still has 99% of
> its capacity from Toshiba in Japan! Nanoparticle technology, real cool.
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/03/29/toshiba_li-ion_...
> http://www.dpreview.com/news/0503/05032903tosh1minbatt....
>
>
> --
> Larry
>
> You know you've had a rough night when you wake up and your outlined in
> chalk.
>
Thank you. This has been a very productive string and I appreciate
everybody's input, insight and know-how.

Wayne
Anonymous
June 20, 2005 7:59:19 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"Wayne Lundberg" <Waynelund@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
news:qJBte.994338$w62.650327@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:

> Thank you. This has been a very productive string and I appreciate
> everybody's input, insight and know-how.
>
> Wayne
>

Shhhh....don't tell Quick. I got all this knowledge by putting "Lithium-
Ion charging" into Google's search engine...(c;

--
Larry

You know you've had a rough night when you wake up and your outlined in
chalk.
Anonymous
June 20, 2005 11:37:27 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

However you got it, the thread has a lot of value!

Thanks.

Wayne

"Larry W4CSC" <noone@home.com> wrote in message
news:Xns967B8DE93259Ew4csc@63.223.7.253...
> "Wayne Lundberg" <Waynelund@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
> news:qJBte.994338$w62.650327@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
>
> > Thank you. This has been a very productive string and I appreciate
> > everybody's input, insight and know-how.
> >
> > Wayne
> >
>
> Shhhh....don't tell Quick. I got all this knowledge by putting "Lithium-
> Ion charging" into Google's search engine...(c;
>
> --
> Larry
>
> You know you've had a rough night when you wake up and your outlined in
> chalk.
>
Anonymous
June 20, 2005 11:40:18 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"Wayne Lundberg" <Waynelund@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
news:XVEte.995253$w62.762361@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:

> Thanks.
>

Quite welcome.

I can't wait to see those new Li-Ion batteries that will charge to 80% of
capacity in SIXTY SECONDS. If they get any faster, we'd have to provide
the charger with 100A 240VAC service for the "Peak Load"...(c;

--
Larry

You know you've had a rough night when you wake up and your outlined in
chalk.
Anonymous
June 21, 2005 1:52:17 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.verizon (More info?)

"Wayne Lundberg" <Waynelund@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>What a great idea!!!
>
>Thanks
>Wayne
>
>"Treo Leo" <treoleo@gmail.com> wrote:
>> You can also attach a generator to one of your Windjammers
>> so you can recharge your phone while playing to improve the
>> battery's useful life even further.

Just forgot that if the phone starts ringing while attached
to your Windjammer then you'll have to go run after it.

But if you also have a bluetooth headset you can play and
talk on the phone and charge the phone all at the same time.

Oops, wrong newsgroup :-)
!