paste or pad

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

I need to re-attach the heatsink to my processor, should I use a thermal pad
or paste? What are the pros / cons?

 

[Snoopy]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

"Max Coppin" <maxcoppin@-no-spam-please-btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:0uBkc.449$Af6.97@newsfe1-win...
> I need to re-attach the heatsink to my processor, should I use a thermal
pad
> or paste? What are the pros / cons?

paste period end of discussion. pads are only good for... well, never
mind... ;-) YMMV

 

[Stacey]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

Max Coppin wrote:

> I need to re-attach the heatsink to my processor, should I use a thermal
> pad
> or paste? What are the pros / cons?


Paste runs cooler, pads are easy for a dumbass to install i.e. stick one to
the bottom of the supplied HS and the end user can't forget to install it.
--

Stacey

 

[Dino]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

pick up some Arctic Silver and apply ...it works way better than the
silicone paste or pad

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

Stacey wrote:

> Max Coppin wrote:
>
>
>>I need to re-attach the heatsink to my processor, should I use a thermal
>>pad
>>or paste? What are the pros / cons?
>
>
>
> Paste runs cooler, pads are easy for a dumbass to install i.e. stick one to
> the bottom of the supplied HS and the end user can't forget to install it.

It's also less messy, more rugged, reliably repeatable, and readily machine
applied in mass production.

Mention using thermal compound in most modern assembly facilities and
you're likely to be run out of the place on a rail.

 

[Snoopy]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

"David Maynard" <dNOTmayn@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:1095snuaod8uo95@corp.supernews.com...
> Stacey wrote:
>
> > Max Coppin wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I need to re-attach the heatsink to my processor, should I use a thermal
> >>pad
> >>or paste? What are the pros / cons?
> >
> >
> >
> > Paste runs cooler, pads are easy for a dumbass to install i.e. stick one
to
> > the bottom of the supplied HS and the end user can't forget to install
it.
>
> It's also less messy, more rugged, reliably repeatable, and readily
machine
> applied in mass production.
>
> Mention using thermal compound in most modern assembly facilities and
> you're likely to be run out of the place on a rail.
>

Right pads lend themselves nicely to mass production. (more rugged? i've
never been able to break that paste!)
But is it better for the purpose of heat transmission?

 

[Paul]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

In article <1095snuaod8uo95@corp.supernews.com>, David Maynard
<dNOTmayn@ev1.net> wrote:

> Stacey wrote:
>
> > Max Coppin wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I need to re-attach the heatsink to my processor, should I use a thermal
> >>pad
> >>or paste? What are the pros / cons?
> >
> >
> >
> > Paste runs cooler, pads are easy for a dumbass to install i.e. stick one to
> > the bottom of the supplied HS and the end user can't forget to install it.
>
> It's also less messy, more rugged, reliably repeatable, and readily machine
> applied in mass production.
>
> Mention using thermal compound in most modern assembly facilities and
> you're likely to be run out of the place on a rail.

That is because engineers in mass production situations, want
what they hope will be a zero maintenance solution. Paste/grease
needs to be reapplied regularly, any time a rising CPU temp suggests
the paste/grease is no longer filling the gap between CPU and HSF.
Thermal "pumping" or drying degrade just about any paste/grease,
so at some point, the CPU/HSF interface has to be redone.

There are some "gooey" solutions (look like silicon rubber) that
can be injected into a heatsink assembly, using an injection port
and an observation port, but the performance of that kind of solution
is worse than a pad.

For an Athlon, the combination of a bare die (i.e. limited contact
area) and high power dissipation, really limit what will work to
keep the processor cool. While AMD doesn't approve of AS3, home
builders find it works just fine. (You may want to read up on
AMD warranty issues if you use AS3 or something similar. If
returning a processor, make sure the processor is cleaned first.
Don't be sloppy with the paste/grease.)

Paul

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

snoopy wrote:

> "David Maynard" <dNOTmayn@ev1.net> wrote in message
> news:1095snuaod8uo95@corp.supernews.com...
>
>>Stacey wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Max Coppin wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I need to re-attach the heatsink to my processor, should I use a thermal
>>>>pad
>>>>or paste? What are the pros / cons?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Paste runs cooler, pads are easy for a dumbass to install i.e. stick one
>
> to
>
>>>the bottom of the supplied HS and the end user can't forget to install
>
> it.
>
>>It's also less messy, more rugged, reliably repeatable, and readily
>
> machine
>
>>applied in mass production.
>>
>>Mention using thermal compound in most modern assembly facilities and
>>you're likely to be run out of the place on a rail.
>>
>
>
> Right pads lend themselves nicely to mass production.
> (more rugged? i've
> never been able to break that paste!)

To 'break' it is to do something that causes it to not serve the purpose
and thermal compound that gets smeared off during handling, as one example,
or wasn't applied properly in the first place, doesn't do its job. It's
function is 'broke'.

> But is it better for the purpose of heat transmission?

Depends on how you define 'better'. If you mean what is the best that can
be achieved under ideal conditions, and ignoring long term effects, then
thermal compound is probably 'better'. If you mean being able to count on
all of the applications, and the devices it's applied to, working properly
without costly failures/rework then a pad is better.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

Max Coppin wrote:

> I need to re-attach the heatsink to my processor, should I use a thermal pad
> or paste? What are the pros / cons?
>
>

The choice depends on the application.

Pads are designed to provide an adequate thermal interface regardless of
installer competency. IOW, guaranteed & foolproof. They also last the
life of the processor installation, but can be difficult to disassemble
if required.

Paste has the potential to provide somewhat improved thermal transfer
performance if properly applied, which is largely irrelevant unless you
overclock or otherwise operate under stressful conditions. Paste
performance can degrade over time as it dries out, but disassembly to
replace it is not difficult.

Thermal paste should be applied such that it only fills voids which
would exist if no thermal interface were used - direct contact is
preferable. It's not easy to get this right in practice, hence the
manufacturer's preference for the predictability of pads.

 

[Ed]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Sat, 01 May 2004 01:02:11 -0400, Triffid <triffid@nebula.net> wrote:

>
>
>Max Coppin wrote:
>
>> I need to re-attach the heatsink to my processor, should I use a thermal pad
>> or paste? What are the pros / cons?
>>
>>
>
>The choice depends on the application.
>
>Pads are designed to provide an adequate thermal interface regardless of
>installer competency. IOW, guaranteed & foolproof. They also last the
>life of the processor installation, but can be difficult to disassemble
>if required.
>
>Paste has the potential to provide somewhat improved thermal transfer
>performance if properly applied, which is largely irrelevant unless you
>overclock or otherwise operate under stressful conditions. Paste
>performance can degrade over time as it dries out, but disassembly to
>replace it is not difficult.
>
>Thermal paste should be applied such that it only fills voids which
>would exist if no thermal interface were used - direct contact is
>preferable. It's not easy to get this right in practice, hence the
>manufacturer's preference for the predictability of pads.
>

I've seen as much as a 10C difference when applying paste to my AMD
Barton, man these things are touchy! Built a few (slower) with the AMD
boxed for friends and the temps are all about the same, these ppl don't
OC and could care less what their CPU temps are, as long as the PC
doesn't crash they are smiling.

Did a few AMD64s with paste and found out you don't want to cover the
whole top of those, just the center area.

Cheers,
Ed

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

Ed wrote:

> On Sat, 01 May 2004 01:02:11 -0400, Triffid <triffid@nebula.net> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>Max Coppin wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I need to re-attach the heatsink to my processor, should I use a thermal pad
>>>or paste? What are the pros / cons?
>>>
>>>
>>
>>The choice depends on the application.
>>
>>Pads are designed to provide an adequate thermal interface regardless of
>>installer competency. IOW, guaranteed & foolproof. They also last the
>>life of the processor installation, but can be difficult to disassemble
>>if required.
>>
>>Paste has the potential to provide somewhat improved thermal transfer
>>performance if properly applied, which is largely irrelevant unless you
>>overclock or otherwise operate under stressful conditions. Paste
>>performance can degrade over time as it dries out, but disassembly to
>>replace it is not difficult.
>>
>>Thermal paste should be applied such that it only fills voids which
>>would exist if no thermal interface were used - direct contact is
>>preferable. It's not easy to get this right in practice, hence the
>>manufacturer's preference for the predictability of pads.
>>
>
>
> I've seen as much as a 10C difference when applying paste to my AMD
> Barton, man these things are touchy! Built a few (slower) with the AMD
> boxed for friends and the temps are all about the same, these ppl don't
> OC and could care less what their CPU temps are, as long as the PC
> doesn't crash they are smiling.

With Opterons, I only see about a 3'C difference between
pad and paste when using the stock heat sinks and fans
that come with the processors. For an Opty 240 I see
about 42'C with the paste (AS3) and 45'C with the pad.
For an Opty 246, add 6'C to both numbers.

>
> Did a few AMD64s with paste and found out you don't want to cover the
> whole top of those, just the center area.

I covered the whole top (very thinly) of the Opties I did.
I'll try it your way sometime and see if it makes a difference.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

>But is it better for the purpose of heat transmission?

At 40C the pad turns to paste, so it is a non issue. 99% of all the
talk about paste being better is just hype. The best improvement I've
ever seen using paste over a pad is 2C. Hardly even worth the effort.
BTW a pad has never shorted out a CPU but paste does all the time.
That's why AMD doesn't want anyone using paste and if they find out
you did your 3 year warrany is void.

 

[Stacey]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

Andrew J wrote:

>
>
>>But is it better for the purpose of heat transmission?
>
> At 40C the pad turns to paste, so it is a non issue.

Except it's thicker, adds another layer between the CPU and heat sink.

> 99% of all the
> talk about paste being better is just hype. The best improvement I've
> ever seen using paste over a pad is 2C.

I've seen 6-8C

> Hardly even worth the effort.
> BTW a pad has never shorted out a CPU but paste does all the time.
>

?? Normal silcone HSG isn't conductive so that would be pretty tough!
--

Stacey

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips Rob Stow <rob.stow@sasktel.net> wrote:
> Ed wrote:
>> Did a few AMD64s with paste and found out you don't want to cover the
>> whole top of those, just the center area.
>
> I covered the whole top (very thinly) of the Opties I did.
> I'll try it your way sometime and see if it makes a difference.

My technique for applying thermal grease/paste is to squeeze
out a log of the stuff centered between the long sides of
the dieback. Then very carefully squeeze it down and out
by pressing the heatsink down parallel while rocking slightly.

Practice a few times and check for how well the grease spreads.
Done correctly, this method eliminates air bubbles which are
the big enemies of heat transfer. Both thermal pads and
"trowel the grease flat" can get bubbles.

-- Robert author `cpuburn` http://pages.sbcglobal.net/~redelm



>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

>?? Normal silcone HSG isn't conductive so that would be pretty tough!

The most popular ones like AS(silver?) conduct electricity. The
smallest amount left behind voids your AMD warranty which many have
found out the hard way.

http://forums.extremeoverclocking.com/showthread.php?t=86301

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

Andrew J wrote:
>
>>?? Normal silcone HSG isn't conductive so that would be pretty tough!
>
>
> The most popular ones like AS(silver?) conduct electricity. The
> smallest amount left behind voids your AMD warranty which many have
> found out the hard way.
>
> http://forums.extremeoverclocking.com/showthread.php?t=86301

First let me say that I've used, and continue to use, arctic silver and it
can be fine if applied properly. However, noting that some of it may 'ooze'
out understates the problem. The stuff will adhere to anything like
gangbusters, with particular affinity for wherever you don't want it, and
one's 'normal' instincts on how to 'wipe it off' generally spreads it all
over the place rather than 'removing' it. Plus, get it on your fingers, an
incredibly easy event, and everything you touch will end up contaminated
with it as well.

It is the epitome of 'messy'.

 

[Stacey]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

Andrew J wrote:

>
>
>>?? Normal silcone HSG isn't conductive so that would be pretty tough!
>
> The most popular ones like AS(silver?) conduct electricity.

Actually the "most popular" ones aren't conductive. Now if you said "The
most advertised" or "The most expensive/popular with overclockers who read
websites like they are gospel" maybe I'd go with that.

I've tried AS (someone bought some and brought it to me to use on their
system) vs radio shack HSG and there was no difference in temps to amount
to anything. I can't see why anyone would use electrically conductive HSG
anyway. You're right though if I had to choose between electrically
conductive HSG and a pad, I'd be using a pad! The problem is there are good
HSG's that aren't electrically conductive and do a much better job than a
pad does.

--

Stacey

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

In article <c71kmf$gr3mi$1@ID-52908.news.uni-berlin.de>,
fotocord@yahoo.com says...
> Andrew J wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >>?? Normal silcone HSG isn't conductive so that would be pretty tough!
> >
> > The most popular ones like AS(silver?) conduct electricity.
>
> Actually the "most popular" ones aren't conductive. Now if you said "The
> most advertised" or "The most expensive/popular with overclockers who read
> websites like they are gospel" maybe I'd go with that.
>
> I've tried AS (someone bought some and brought it to me to use on their
> system) vs radio shack HSG and there was no difference in temps to amount
> to anything. I can't see why anyone would use electrically conductive HSG
> anyway. You're right though if I had to choose between electrically
> conductive HSG and a pad, I'd be using a pad! The problem is there are good
> HSG's that aren't electrically conductive and do a much better job than a
> pad does.

If you google back a few years (perhaps even five) there were
people selling the idea of *grounding* the HSF to improve the
processor speed. It's amazing what people will buy! If you have
any doubts about people's gullibility, look no further than
audio-phools, or your fav audio retailer. People are ignorant,
and have lots of money with which to be stupid.

--
Keith

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Sat, 1 May 2004 22:32:51 -0400, KR Williams <krw@att.biz> wrote:

>If you google back a few years (perhaps even five) there were
>people selling the idea of *grounding* the HSF to improve the
>processor speed. It's amazing what people will buy!

That idea is still alive and kicking today. The latest is a grounding
cable on this new brand of power supply available here. Some user
purportedly see better overclocking results when one of the
motherboard screw secures it to the board. My friend pointed out that
the power suppy and board are already grounded in the first to begin
with and had "empirical" data thrown into his face by users who
"benefitted".

Personally I don't know enough to figure why it should help, anybody
has got a better grasp of it?
--
L.Angel: I'm looking for web design work.
If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me
Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Sat, 01 May 2004 22:34:45 GMT, Leythos <void@nowhere.com> wrote:

>Xeon processors. In general, the least amount used is the best. I
>generally put HSP on using a razor knife, and then almost scrape it all
>off, leaving only a trace behind. To much paste is always a problem,
>most people apply way to much.

As always, I disagree with this. In general a little too much is
better than too little. Too little is always a problem, too much just
gets squeezed out

--
L.Angel: I'm looking for web design work.
If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me
Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

The little lost angel wrote:

> On Sat, 01 May 2004 22:34:45 GMT, Leythos <void@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Xeon processors. In general, the least amount used is the best. I
>>generally put HSP on using a razor knife, and then almost scrape it all
>>off, leaving only a trace behind. To much paste is always a problem,
>>most people apply way to much.
>
>
> As always, I disagree with this. In general a little too much is
> better than too little. Too little is always a problem, too much just
> gets squeezed out
>

Frankly, both situations are a 'problem' if you define 'problem' as less
than optimal and no, "too much" doesn't necessarily get squeezed out. It
depends on the mechanical characteristics of the interface and the fluid
properties of the thermal compound.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

> That idea is still alive and kicking today. The latest is a grounding
> cable on this new brand of power supply available here. Some user
> purportedly see better overclocking results when one of the
> motherboard screw secures it to the board. My friend pointed out that
> the power suppy and board are already grounded in the first to begin
> with and had "empirical" data thrown into his face by users who
> "benefitted".
>
> Personally I don't know enough to figure why it should help, anybody
> has got a better grasp of it?
> --
You could ask my cable installer!
Blamed everything including the kitchen sink for the lack of lockup on the
cable modem signal - his tester modem did not lock up either!
Yes, he blamed the ground and the power outlet... had me bring an extension
from another circuit!
Currently a 'contractor' in the area gets the blame for 3 weeks of outages.
Could be true.

 

[Billh]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

"The little lost angel" <a?n?g?e?l@lovergirl.lrigrevol.moc.com> wrote in
message news:40947665.167180078@news.pacific.net.sg...
> On Sat, 1 May 2004 22:32:51 -0400, KR Williams <krw@att.biz> wrote:
>
> >If you google back a few years (perhaps even five) there were
> >people selling the idea of *grounding* the HSF to improve the
> >processor speed. It's amazing what people will buy!
>
> That idea is still alive and kicking today. The latest is a grounding
> cable on this new brand of power supply available here. Some user
> purportedly see better overclocking results when one of the
> motherboard screw secures it to the board. My friend pointed out that
> the power suppy and board are already grounded in the first to begin
> with and had "empirical" data thrown into his face by users who
> "benefitted".
>
> Personally I don't know enough to figure why it should help, anybody
> has got a better grasp of it?
> --
> L.Angel: I'm looking for web design work.
> If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me

> Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
> If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
> But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code

I fundamentally agree with your views but you are not dealing with only DC
currents. Your are dealing with high-frequency pulses with frequency
components well into the microwave region. This means what looks like a
ground to DC looks like a distributed mess of small inductors, capacitors
and resistors leading to ground to these high-frequencies. It is not totally
impossible that adding or removing a ground somewhere might "improve" the
signal fidelity. I imagine it would be more of a hit and miss affair with it
making no difference most of the time, worse some of the time and better the
odd time. To say putting a ground on all heatsink fans improves the
performance on all boards is nonsense. Give the manufacturers a little
credit, they are well aware of these issues.

Billh

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Sat, 1 May 2004 00:40:25 +0100, "Max Coppin"
<maxcoppin@-no-spam-please-btinternet.com> wrote:

>I need to re-attach the heatsink to my processor, should I use a thermal pad
>or paste? What are the pros / cons?

For the average users, pads will be better. If you look on e.g. AMDs
recommendations they recommend pads and say grease only should be uses
for testing-purposes for short time installation of the CPU.




--
Clas Mehus
--------------------------------------------------
Dataguiden : http://www.pcworld.no/dataguiden/
--------------------------------------------------
"Den som har flest prylar när han dör vinner..."

 

[Billh]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

"Clas Mehus" <clas.mehus@idg.no> wrote in message
news:jkk990hi988m3h0b057719mal2sn9o7t8b@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 1 May 2004 00:40:25 +0100, "Max Coppin"
> <maxcoppin@-no-spam-please-btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> >I need to re-attach the heatsink to my processor, should I use a thermal
pad
> >or paste? What are the pros / cons?
>
> For the average users, pads will be better. If you look on e.g. AMDs
> recommendations they recommend pads and say grease only should be uses
> for testing-purposes for short time installation of the CPU.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Clas Mehus
> --------------------------------------------------
> Dataguiden : http://www.pcworld.no/dataguiden/
> --------------------------------------------------
> "Den som har flest prylar när han dör vinner..."

Where do you buy pads these days? A while back the only place the average
person could by them was by requesting a sample kit from a manufacturer
unless you wanted to buy a thousand or so at a time.
Billh