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Future Intel Xeons to be designed in India

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Anonymous
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May 3, 2004 10:31:49 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

They are talking about a chip coming out in 2007-2008. It will be designed
in Bangalore India. It's current Pentium-M mobile chip was designed in
Isreal. Start of a new trend for Intel?

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/display/20040501121856...

Yousuf Khan

--
Humans: contact me at ykhan at rogers dot com
Spambots: just reply to this email address ;-)
May 3, 2004 3:23:16 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

Intel does research all over the world, you never know,
I live down the street from one of the two network research
centers, it has 7000 + people in there all day long,

One day I gave it a go to walk in there looking for a pro 100 +
network card, the two locks gates, just past the gaurd tower
where my first lesson, nest was the next set of locked doors & the two armed
garuds

"Yousuf Khan" <news.tally.bbbl67@spamgourmet.com> wrote in message
news:p Hllc.369504$2oI1.273392@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> They are talking about a chip coming out in 2007-2008. It will be designed
> in Bangalore India. It's current Pentium-M mobile chip was designed in
> Isreal. Start of a new trend for Intel?
>
> http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/display/20040501121856...
>
> Yousuf Khan
>
> --
> Humans: contact me at ykhan at rogers dot com
> Spambots: just reply to this email address ;-)
>
>
Anonymous
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May 3, 2004 6:37:56 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

Yousuf Khan wrote:

> They are talking about a chip coming out in 2007-2008. It will be designed
> in Bangalore India. It's current Pentium-M mobile chip was designed in
> Isreal. Start of a new trend for Intel?

Well, having design facilities in Israel is nothing new. IBM,
Microsoft, and Intel have all had facilities there for quite some time.
Remember back when IBM released that version of OS/2 that could run
your existing installed copy of Windows instead of using Win-OS/2? That
was developed in Haifa, IIRC.

--
Mike Smith
Related resources
Anonymous
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May 4, 2004 4:14:52 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

"Yousuf Khan" <news.tally.bbbl67@spamgourmet.com> wrote in message
news:p Hllc.369504$2oI1.273392@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> They are talking about a chip coming out in 2007-2008. It will be designed
> in Bangalore India. It's current Pentium-M mobile chip was designed in
> Isreal. Start of a new trend for Intel?
>
> http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/display/20040501121856...
>
> Yousuf Khan
>
> --

Yes since it allows much higher margins in future products when R&D costs
can be dropped. A U.S EE for intel probably makes 80K and you can hire an
Indian EE for about 5K so for the price of 1 US EE you get 16 Indians living
in a tin shack and you can have them work Shifts so productivity never stops
24/7.

I would say 40-50 years from now all farming,manufacturing,development and
buisness processing (Accounting etc...) will be sent overseas, since its
cheaper and provides the companies much higher margins on the end product.
Anonymous
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May 4, 2004 4:14:53 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

Hugo Drax wrote:

<<snipped>>

> I would say 40-50 years from now all farming,manufacturing,development and
> buisness processing (Accounting etc...) will be sent overseas, since its
> cheaper and provides the companies much higher margins on the end product.
>

In this world of high-speed internet connections, business
operations along with applied science research and development
have already moved overseas. While price is one factor, one
cannot forget that education overseas still emphasizes the
skills that are essential to survival, viz., the 3 R's.
Anonymous
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May 4, 2004 4:16:06 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

"Mike Smith" <mike_UNDERSCORE_smith@acm.DOT.org> wrote in message
news:109d4c6bvq5623a@news.supernews.com...
> Yousuf Khan wrote:
>
> > They are talking about a chip coming out in 2007-2008. It will be
designed
> > in Bangalore India. It's current Pentium-M mobile chip was designed in
> > Isreal. Start of a new trend for Intel?
>
> Well, having design facilities in Israel is nothing new. IBM,
> Microsoft, and Intel have all had facilities there for quite some time.
> Remember back when IBM released that version of OS/2 that could run
> your existing installed copy of Windows instead of using Win-OS/2? That
> was developed in Haifa, IIRC.
>
> --
> Mike Smith
>

True but I think eventually all development/design will go overseas. it
makes no sense to pay 16 times more for US labor when overseas is 1/16th
cheaper and will afford Intel,IBM etc.. a nice margin on end product.
Anonymous
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May 4, 2004 11:07:33 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

"Hugo Drax" <hugodrax@nsa.gov> wrote in message
news:c7755c$g0do$1@ID-155262.news.uni-berlin.de...
> Yes since it allows much higher margins in future products when R&D costs
> can be dropped. A U.S EE for intel probably makes 80K and you can hire an
> Indian EE for about 5K so for the price of 1 US EE you get 16 Indians
living
> in a tin shack and you can have them work Shifts so productivity never
stops
> 24/7.

You'd be surprised how luxuriously you can live outside the US for a tenth
of the salary in the US. I think the US cost of living is pretty much out of
sync with the rest of the world.

Yousuf Khan
Anonymous
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May 4, 2004 11:37:26 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

"Hugo Drax" <hugodrax@nsa.gov> wrote:

>I would say 40-50 years from now all farming,manufacturing,development and
>buisness processing (Accounting etc...) will be sent overseas, since its
>cheaper and provides the companies much higher margins on the end product.

You'd think that the evil businessman would figure-out that the market
for his products will dry up, if people aren't making a decent wage
(in the future US). Alas, the evil businessman is a selfish,
short-sighted person, and figures that if he can make his big
stock-option killing, he and his kids will be alright, and the rest of
the country (including the guy who takes-over his gutted company) can
go pound sand.
Anonymous
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May 4, 2004 12:51:06 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

"Yousuf Khan" <news.tally.bbbl67@spamgourmet.com> wrote in message
news:ViHlc.390689$2oI1.102551@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> "Hugo Drax" <hugodrax@nsa.gov> wrote in message
> news:c7755c$g0do$1@ID-155262.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > Yes since it allows much higher margins in future products when R&D
costs
> > can be dropped. A U.S EE for intel probably makes 80K and you can hire
an
> > Indian EE for about 5K so for the price of 1 US EE you get 16 Indians
> living
> > in a tin shack and you can have them work Shifts so productivity never
> stops
> > 24/7.
>
> You'd be surprised how luxuriously you can live outside the US for a tenth
> of the salary in the US. I think the US cost of living is pretty much out
of
> sync with the rest of the world.

I was about to respond:

Tin shack !! More like a luxurious air conditioned bungalow, company
provided car, with servants doing all the cooking, cleaning, gardening etc
etc.
--
Aloke
----
to reply by e-mail remove 123 and change invalid to com
Anonymous
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May 4, 2004 12:51:07 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

"Aloke Prasad" <aprasad123@columbus.rr.invalid> wrote:


>"Yousuf Khan" <news.tally.bbbl67@spamgourmet.com> wrote:
>>
>> You'd be surprised how luxuriously you can live outside the US for a tenth
>> of the salary in the US. I think the US cost of living is pretty much out
>of
>> sync with the rest of the world.
>
>I was about to respond:
>
>Tin shack !! More like a luxurious air conditioned bungalow, company
>provided car, with servants doing all the cooking, cleaning, gardening etc
>etc.

But no 10MPG SUV, I'd bet.

8)
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 4, 2004 3:44:03 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

Bitstring
<ViHlc.390689$2oI1.102551@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, from
the wonderful person Yousuf Khan <news.tally.bbbl67@spamgourmet.com>
said
>"Hugo Drax" <hugodrax@nsa.gov> wrote in message
>news:c7755c$g0do$1@ID-155262.news.uni-berlin.de...
>> Yes since it allows much higher margins in future products when R&D costs
>> can be dropped. A U.S EE for intel probably makes 80K and you can hire an
>> Indian EE for about 5K so for the price of 1 US EE you get 16 Indians
>living
>> in a tin shack and you can have them work Shifts so productivity never
>stops
>> 24/7.
>
>You'd be surprised how luxuriously you can live outside the US for a tenth
>of the salary in the US. I think the US cost of living is pretty much out of
>sync with the rest of the world.



--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
Outgoing Msgs are Turing Tested,and indistinguishable from human typing.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 4, 2004 3:47:48 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

Bitstring
<ViHlc.390689$2oI1.102551@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, from
the wonderful person Yousuf Khan <news.tally.bbbl67@spamgourmet.com>
said
>"Hugo Drax" <hugodrax@nsa.gov> wrote in message
>news:c7755c$g0do$1@ID-155262.news.uni-berlin.de...
>> Yes since it allows much higher margins in future products when R&D costs
>> can be dropped. A U.S EE for intel probably makes 80K and you can hire an
>> Indian EE for about 5K so for the price of 1 US EE you get 16 Indians
>living
>> in a tin shack and you can have them work Shifts so productivity never
>stops
>> 24/7.
>
>You'd be surprised how luxuriously you can live outside the US for a tenth
>of the salary in the US. I think the US cost of living is pretty much out of
>sync with the rest of the world.

That's not completely unrelated to labour costs .. when everyone from a
builder to a policeman is earning 1/10th the USA rate, the cost of
living is bound to be rather lower.

However salaries in India have floated up pretty dramatically these last
10-15 years, and will continue to do so (at least for the educated folks
... and educated Indians are very educated indeed .. which other country
teaches '19 times table' in schools? Heck, which other country does most
of its teaching in what is, to 99% of the pupils, a second language?
8>.)

--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
Outgoing Msgs are Turing Tested,and indistinguishable from human typing.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 4, 2004 5:39:07 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

Hugo Drax wrote:
>
> I would say 40-50 years from now all farming,manufacturing,development and
> buisness processing (Accounting etc...) will be sent overseas, since its
> cheaper and provides the companies much higher margins on the end product.

I would say 40-50 years from now, salaries in India/China/Russia etc.
will be a lot closer to those of the rest of the world, thus obviating
much of the economic advantage in outsourcing.

--
Mike Smith
Anonymous
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May 4, 2004 5:46:06 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

"chrisv" <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:363f905rbplmgijqt4db2ibvepua6fd9oa@4ax.com...
> >Tin shack !! More like a luxurious air conditioned bungalow, company
> >provided car, with servants doing all the cooking, cleaning, gardening
etc
> >etc.
>
> But no 10MPG SUV, I'd bet.

Actually maybe only a 15MPG SUV.

Yousuf Khan
Anonymous
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May 4, 2004 6:12:22 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

Bitstring <b83f90horij4u3984gdb7nslufv6umt82u@4ax.com>, from the
wonderful person chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> said
>"Hugo Drax" <hugodrax@nsa.gov> wrote:
>
>>I would say 40-50 years from now all farming,manufacturing,development and
>>buisness processing (Accounting etc...) will be sent overseas, since its
>>cheaper and provides the companies much higher margins on the end product.
>
>You'd think that the evil businessman would figure-out that the market
>for his products will dry up, if people aren't making a decent wage
>(in the future US).

Hmm, defining 'decent' as 50x the global average, I assume?
And assuming that the only market which counts is the US market?
(ISTR there are more $ millionaires in Asia than in the USA)

Yeah well, Usenet =is= kind of parochial that way..

Hint: the universe doesn't own =anyone= a living (although people born
on top of a pool of oil, or a pile of diamond bearing ore, may have some
reason for short term optimism).

--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
Outgoing Msgs are Turing Tested,and indistinguishable from human typing.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 4, 2004 7:01:11 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

On Tue, 4 May 2004 11:47:48 +0100, GSV Three Minds in a Can
<GSV@quik.clara.co.uk> wrote:

>However salaries in India have floated up pretty dramatically these last
>10-15 years, and will continue to do so (at least for the educated folks
>.. and educated Indians are very educated indeed .. which other country
>teaches '19 times table' in schools? Heck, which other country does most
>of its teaching in what is, to 99% of the pupils, a second language?
>8>.)

This is only a small portion of Indians, and is where they are going
to lose against China if they don't get their act together.

India overall is not educating the masses, which is what you need for
economic dominance like America or Japan has experienced in the past.
Literacy rates in India are running around 50% (with more illiterate
women than men). China, OTOH, is educating everyone, and is building
considerable momentum. They're like a sleepy giant starting on their
2nd cup of coffee. Watch out when they finish the pot!

Another difference is that India is building soft industries
(software, design, other stuff that can be moved relatively quickly
and cheaply), while China is focusing on hard industry - brick and
mortar manufacturing that pays back into the community for decades and
is not easily transported elsewhere. Manufacturing is the life-blood
of a vital national economy.

The size of the population will work to the advantage of both, though.
Korea was starting to be a threat with low cost manufacturing, but the
population is small enough that raising the standard of living a lot
(hence the cost of production) didn't take so much. Raising the
standard of living of a billion Chinese is a longer-term project...


Neil Maxwell - I don't speak for my employer
Anonymous
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May 4, 2004 9:46:01 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

GSV Three Minds in a Can wrote:
>> You'd be surprised how luxuriously you can live outside the US for a
>> tenth of the salary in the US. I think the US cost of living is
>> pretty much out of sync with the rest of the world.
>
> That's not completely unrelated to labour costs .. when everyone from
> a builder to a policeman is earning 1/10th the USA rate, the cost of
> living is bound to be rather lower.
>
> However salaries in India have floated up pretty dramatically these
> last 10-15 years, and will continue to do so (at least for the
> educated folks .. and educated Indians are very educated indeed ..
> which other country teaches '19 times table' in schools? Heck, which
> other country does most of its teaching in what is, to 99% of the
> pupils, a second language? 8>.)

Sure the salaries have floated up in India and in that other giant, China.
But they will take decades to even catch upto US salaries. And then the US
salaries will have to remain stagnant for those intervening decades, before
the Chinese or Indian salaries approach US ones. US salary structures didn't
happen overnight, and they won't be changed overnight either.

I doubt US salaries are ever going to take a tumble just to compete against
these other countries. Nor is it right for US workers to take pay cuts,
considering what the cost of living is in the US. If workers took a pay cut,
would manufacturers also automatically lower prices? Not right away, but as
their sales start tumbling then they would, but in the meantime, a lot
heartache where people can't afford things they were able to afford before,
and sellers losing sales that they used to make easily before.

I know that there is a lot of grumbling in the US about why they should be
losing jobs to overseas. Well, the reason seems to be that the overseas
market is the market manufacturers are going for now. So you can't be having
a high-priced US worker designing and making these products for sales to
people who make a tenth of what they make. If you want to sell to China or
India, then you better hire Chinese or Indians to design these things for
their own people at the costs that their own people can afford. If the
products that they design happen to be sold back to the US at cheaper rates,
then that's only good for consumers.

Yousuf Khan
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 4, 2004 9:46:02 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

"Yousuf Khan" <news.tally.bbbl67@spamgourmet.com> wrote in message
news:tFQlc.52007$DrD1.2571@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...

> Sure the salaries have floated up in India and in that other giant, China.
> But they will take decades to even catch upto US salaries. And then the US
> salaries will have to remain stagnant for those intervening decades,
> before
> the Chinese or Indian salaries approach US ones. US salary structures
> didn't
> happen overnight, and they won't be changed overnight either.

The reduction in salaries will be partially balanced out by the
reduction in the cost of goods. If outsourcing reduces the labor costs of
goods, it will reduce the cost of those goods.

> I doubt US salaries are ever going to take a tumble just to compete
> against
> these other countries.

They could. I don't think it's likely, but it's certainly not
impossible. More laborers will be competing on an international market
rather than a national one.

> Nor is it right for US workers to take pay cuts,
> considering what the cost of living is in the US.

The cost of living will go down.

> If workers took a pay cut,
> would manufacturers also automatically lower prices?

No, you have the cause and effect backwards. Prices will lower for goods
for the same reason they'll lower for wages -- competition in a larger
economy.

> Not right away, but as
> their sales start tumbling then they would, but in the meantime, a lot
> heartache where people can't afford things they were able to afford
> before,
> and sellers losing sales that they used to make easily before.

No, sales won't tumble, they'll grow. Cheaper labor means cheaper goods
that poorer people can affort. Globalization means larger markets to sell
goods into.

> I know that there is a lot of grumbling in the US about why they should be
> losing jobs to overseas. Well, the reason seems to be that the overseas
> market is the market manufacturers are going for now. So you can't be
> having
> a high-priced US worker designing and making these products for sales to
> people who make a tenth of what they make.

You can, so long as the US worker's productivity corresponds to his
cost.

> If you want to sell to China or
> India, then you better hire Chinese or Indians to design these things for
> their own people at the costs that their own people can afford. If the
> products that they design happen to be sold back to the US at cheaper
> rates,
> then that's only good for consumers.

Good enough to compensate for wage reductions? It's hard to say. There
could be a few rocky decades as the economy adjusts.

DS
Anonymous
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May 4, 2004 10:16:58 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

"Hugo Drax" <hugodrax@nsa.gov> writes:
> True but I think eventually all development/design will go overseas. it
> makes no sense to pay 16 times more for US labor when overseas is 1/16th
> cheaper and will afford Intel,IBM etc.. a nice margin on end product.

Why stop at development/design? What prevents management from being
outsourced too? Heck, what prevents the board of directors from
outsourcing the CEO position?

-wolfgang
Anonymous
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May 4, 2004 10:16:59 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

Wolfgang S. Rupprecht wrote:

> "Hugo Drax" <hugodrax@nsa.gov> writes:
>
>>True but I think eventually all development/design will go overseas. it
>>makes no sense to pay 16 times more for US labor when overseas is 1/16th
>>cheaper and will afford Intel,IBM etc.. a nice margin on end product.
>
>
> Why stop at development/design? What prevents management from being
> outsourced too? Heck, what prevents the board of directors from
> outsourcing the CEO position?

Well, the CEO is a corporate officer, so that may have something to do
with it. But that aside, there would be no reason not to outsource the
CEO job - *if* they think they can find a capable person who'll do the
job for cheap enough to make it worthwhile. *If*.

--
Mike Smith
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 5, 2004 12:30:33 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

On Tue, 04 May 2004 15:01:11 -0700, Neil Maxwell <neil.maxwell@intel.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 4 May 2004 11:47:48 +0100, GSV Three Minds in a Can
><GSV@quik.clara.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>However salaries in India have floated up pretty dramatically these last
>>10-15 years, and will continue to do so (at least for the educated folks
>>.. and educated Indians are very educated indeed .. which other country
>>teaches '19 times table' in schools? Heck, which other country does most
>>of its teaching in what is, to 99% of the pupils, a second language?
>>8>.)
>
>This is only a small portion of Indians, and is where they are going
>to lose against China if they don't get their act together.
>
>India overall is not educating the masses, which is what you need for
>economic dominance like America or Japan has experienced in the past.
>Literacy rates in India are running around 50% (with more illiterate
>women than men). China, OTOH, is educating everyone, and is building
>considerable momentum. They're like a sleepy giant starting on their
>2nd cup of coffee. Watch out when they finish the pot!

Producing "intellect" is one thing - motivating it and capitalizing on it
is something else. The political/economic systems of either of the above,
especially China, has not so far proven itself adept at that. There's also
the question of massive, apparently uncontrollable, IP theft in China...
which is going to be released to the world in the next few months. Lawyers
are licking their chops.

>Another difference is that India is building soft industries
>(software, design, other stuff that can be moved relatively quickly
>and cheaply), while China is focusing on hard industry - brick and
>mortar manufacturing that pays back into the community for decades and
>is not easily transported elsewhere. Manufacturing is the life-blood
>of a vital national economy.

And yet without marketing and sales know-how, all the brick and mortar can
be just a wasted resource. In the end, in a working politico-social
system, who gets paid more - the guy who innovates or the guy who sells his
gadget?

>The size of the population will work to the advantage of both, though.
>Korea was starting to be a threat with low cost manufacturing, but the
>population is small enough that raising the standard of living a lot
>(hence the cost of production) didn't take so much. Raising the
>standard of living of a billion Chinese is a longer-term project...

For various reasons, endogenous and exogenous, Korea has not been able to
capitalize on its manufacturing advantage as well as it might have. IMO
it's just as likely that China will desend into a morass of social
upheaval, inept management, both corporate & govt,. and incompetent
marketing. Nothing is given and you need a working/workable socio-economic
system to thrive.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
Anonymous
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May 5, 2004 1:34:10 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

GSV Three Minds in a Can wrote:
Heck, which other country does most
> of its teaching in what is, to 99% of the pupils, a second language? 8>.)
>

Well...we do! :-)
Republic of Mauritius.


--

Nadeem M Nayeck [ m n n a y e c k @ i n t n e t . m u ]
Registered LU #290695
Key fingerprint : D8C3 DFA5 A2A8 CA60 50B9 9311 A346 612F 6EDD 68BC
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 5, 2004 2:16:10 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

Wolfgang S. Rupprecht wrote:
> "Hugo Drax" <hugodrax@nsa.gov> writes:
>> True but I think eventually all development/design will go overseas.
>> it makes no sense to pay 16 times more for US labor when overseas is
>> 1/16th cheaper and will afford Intel,IBM etc.. a nice margin on end
>> product.
>
> Why stop at development/design? What prevents management from being
> outsourced too? Heck, what prevents the board of directors from
> outsourcing the CEO position?

That may very well be the next avenue of outsourcing. There was a time when
they said they'd never outsource their engineering and scientific brains,
but that's happening now. In recent years, upper management has been
displeasing shareholders (institutional and individual investors alike),
with things like Enron, Tyco, etc. The executive suite seems to believe that
it's outside the scrutiny of anybody, but it may not be anymore.

Let's face it, even the salaries of American executives are way above
anything the rest of the world sees. You can justify it by saying that
you're not really paying them a hell of a lot, except with stock options,
but even that gets old when they get so many stock options, they usually
become major shareholders of the companies they run without even buying a
single share.

Yousuf Khan
Anonymous
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May 5, 2004 2:36:15 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

David Schwartz wrote:
> The reduction in salaries will be partially balanced out by the
> reduction in the cost of goods. If outsourcing reduces the labor
> costs of goods, it will reduce the cost of those goods.

A reduction in the cost of goods is otherwise known as deflation. If there
is ever a recipe for a self-destructing economy, it is deflation, more so
than inflation. Deflation is like that proverbial airplane that has stalled
and is now spiralling down to earth, supremely difficult for a pilot to
control. The most staunchly anti-inflation central bankers tend to try to
keep at least a moderate amount of inflation going because deflation is
worse -- deflation could cause street riots as salaries get chopped, or
layoffs mount.

>> I doubt US salaries are ever going to take a tumble just to compete
>> against
>> these other countries.
>
> They could. I don't think it's likely, but it's certainly not
> impossible. More laborers will be competing on an international market
> rather than a national one.

I see salaries remaining stagnant more likely than salaries getting chopped.
Salaries getting chopped will bring the US in line with the rest of the
world more quickly, but at the risk of social upheaval. Just look at the
Soviets.


>> If workers took a pay cut,
>> would manufacturers also automatically lower prices?
>
> No, you have the cause and effect backwards. Prices will lower
> for goods for the same reason they'll lower for wages -- competition
> in a larger economy.

As you know, in the economy, cause and effect play off of each other.
There's no telling which is cause and which is effect most of the time.

>> Not right away, but as
>> their sales start tumbling then they would, but in the meantime, a
>> lot heartache where people can't afford things they were able to
>> afford before,
>> and sellers losing sales that they used to make easily before.
>
> No, sales won't tumble, they'll grow. Cheaper labor means cheaper
> goods that poorer people can affort. Globalization means larger
> markets to sell goods into.

Again, depends on which is cause and which is effect. If salaries are cut
before prices are cut, sales will decline.

>> I know that there is a lot of grumbling in the US about why they
>> should be losing jobs to overseas. Well, the reason seems to be that
>> the overseas market is the market manufacturers are going for now.
>> So you can't be having
>> a high-priced US worker designing and making these products for
>> sales to people who make a tenth of what they make.
>
> You can, so long as the US worker's productivity corresponds to
> his cost.

Productivity is difficult to measure when it comes to those "brainy" jobs.
How do you measure productivity in an engineer? Or worse yet, how do you
measure the productivity of management, especially executive?

It was easy to measure productivity of manufacting jobs for example, just
measure the number of items they make. However, despite increasing
productivity in manufacturing, their jobs were among the first to go.

>> If you want to sell to China or
>> India, then you better hire Chinese or Indians to design these
>> things for their own people at the costs that their own people can
>> afford. If the products that they design happen to be sold back to
>> the US at cheaper rates,
>> then that's only good for consumers.
>
> Good enough to compensate for wage reductions? It's hard to say.
> There could be a few rocky decades as the economy adjusts.

As I said, deflation is a spinning plane out of control.

Yousuf Khan
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 5, 2004 2:49:54 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

In article <x7zn8odplz.fsf@bonnet.wsrcc.com>,
wolfgang+gnus20040504T111100@dailyplanet.dontspam.wsrcc.com
says...
>
> "Hugo Drax" <hugodrax@nsa.gov> writes:
> > True but I think eventually all development/design will go overseas. it
> > makes no sense to pay 16 times more for US labor when overseas is 1/16th
> > cheaper and will afford Intel,IBM etc.. a nice margin on end product.
>
> Why stop at development/design? What prevents management from being
> outsourced too? Heck, what prevents the board of directors from
> outsourcing the CEO position?

The illiterati here will say the "golden-rule". Personally I
think it's a non-issue, or perhaps even a racist one.

--
Keith
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 5, 2004 4:25:36 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

"Neil Maxwell" <neil.maxwell@intel.com> wrote in message
news:v44g909mo5a709q4obthn4501ojh2i3vhi@4ax.com...
> This is only a small portion of Indians, and is where they are going
> to lose against China if they don't get their act together.

You gotta take it one small step at a time. China's been uplifting itself
for the past twenty-five years. Whereas India is only within its first
decade of uplift.

> India overall is not educating the masses, which is what you need for
> economic dominance like America or Japan has experienced in the past.
> Literacy rates in India are running around 50% (with more illiterate
> women than men). China, OTOH, is educating everyone, and is building
> considerable momentum. They're like a sleepy giant starting on their
> 2nd cup of coffee. Watch out when they finish the pot!

Yet there are countries with highly educated workforces, who have never been
economic superpowers (eg. Canada). So I would have to say, being highly
educated is nice, but not critical. More important is the size of the
population of the country.

In fact, you can't even say that the United States is a highly educated
country. High education goes to a very elite group of people in the US, and
their status means their children also get the same education. Concentrating
the education within a group of elites serves the country's aspirations just
as well a universal education system. In fact, I'd say concentrating the
education within the elites does a better job. Not everybody is cut out to
be highly educated -- as the saying goes, and this is true for many people,
all the education I needed, I got in kindergarten. :-)

> Another difference is that India is building soft industries
> (software, design, other stuff that can be moved relatively quickly
> and cheaply), while China is focusing on hard industry - brick and
> mortar manufacturing that pays back into the community for decades and
> is not easily transported elsewhere. Manufacturing is the life-blood
> of a vital national economy.

Could be, but a lot of silicon valley's biggest companies were started by
Indian-educated persons (eg. Sun Microsystems). The reason India is getting
its recognition now is because a lot of these Indian transplants are now
helping to uplift their own country, after having made their fortune in
America. They are not choosing India just because it seemed like a nice
place to set up shop, they are going there because they know the education
levels over there personally.

> The size of the population will work to the advantage of both, though.
> Korea was starting to be a threat with low cost manufacturing, but the
> population is small enough that raising the standard of living a lot
> (hence the cost of production) didn't take so much. Raising the
> standard of living of a billion Chinese is a longer-term project...

The size of the population of both of these countries means companies will
be salivating at selling products into their markets. Ever notice when China
first started getting noticed (over twenty years ago) that companies were
tripping over each other to try to setup a shop there? Never mind that there
was no way that they were going to make money for years to come, they just
wanted to be in a country with a billion people. I think India's entry into
the billion club started a similar ball rolling over there.

Yousuf Khan
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 5, 2004 11:37:43 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

Mike Smith <mike_UNDERSCORE_smith@acm.DOT.org> wrote:

>Hugo Drax wrote:
>>
>> I would say 40-50 years from now all farming,manufacturing,development and
>> buisness processing (Accounting etc...) will be sent overseas, since its
>> cheaper and provides the companies much higher margins on the end product.
>
>I would say 40-50 years from now, salaries in India/China/Russia etc.
>will be a lot closer to those of the rest of the world, thus obviating
>much of the economic advantage in outsourcing.

Bold prediction, there, Mike. 8) The question, from a US
perspective, is can we maintain our standard of living, while the
massive outflow of dollars raises the wealth of the rest of the world.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 5, 2004 11:45:54 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

"David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com> wrote:

>No, yov have the cavse and effect backwards. Prices will lower for goods
>for the same reason they'll lower for wages -- competition in a larger
>economy.

What's weird is that yov'll be able to bvy a microwave oven for $24,
bvt it will always cost yov $100+ to get a stvpid vnion plvmber over
and wrench on a pipe for yov. And scvmbag realtors will still want 7%
of yovr $400k hovse, for a few hovrs of work selling it... And then
there's medical costs...

What will force the adjvstment in those "can't ovtsovrce it"
indvstries?
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 5, 2004 2:35:52 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

"chrisv" <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:n5oh905996e3bhqle9nersq4hifavsbm2v@4ax.com...
> "David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com> wrote:

>>No, yov have the cavse and effect backwards. Prices will lower for goods
>>for the same reason they'll lower for wages -- competition in a larger
>>economy.

> What's weird is that yov'll be able to bvy a microwave oven for $24,
> bvt it will always cost yov $100+ to get a stvpid vnion plvmber over
> and wrench on a pipe for yov. And scvmbag realtors will still want 7%
> of yovr $400k hovse, for a few hovrs of work selling it... And then
> there's medical costs...

> What will force the adjvstment in those "can't ovtsovrce it"
> indvstries?

Nothing really. It's jvst that the greater prodvctivity and inflation
will allow yov to pay the $100 for the plvmber. Labor will always (50 years
at least, anyway) be more expensive in the United States, so it will be a
good place to work if yov're doing a job that has to be done close to where
it's consvmed.

DS
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 5, 2004 3:32:21 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

"David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com> writes:

> The reduction in salaries will be partially balanced out by the
> reduction in the cost of goods. If outsourcing reduces the labor
> costs of goods, it will reduce the cost of those goods.

You are assuming that the reductions of the cost in the producing of
goods will be transferred to the buyers of the goods, and not kept by
the company as profits.

> No, you have the cause and effect backwards. Prices will lower
> for goods for the same reason they'll lower for wages --
> competition in a larger economy.

I've always wondered about this. Prices are said to drop with
competition. But in many "sectors in the economy" (love that phrase)
we see "consolidation" and mergers because by having everything under
one roof the overhead can be reduced and things be made more
efficient, hence giving the ability to lower prices. But with more
mergers, it means less companies competing against one another (read:
less competition).

Is it me, or does the logic seem strange?

> No, sales won't tumble, they'll grow. Cheaper labor means
> cheaper goods that poorer people can affort. Globalization means
> larger markets to sell goods into.

Of course, if you lose your job to globalization, how do you get a
paycheque to buy these cheaper goods?

--
David Magda <dmagda at ee.ryerson.ca>, http://www.magda.ca/
Because the innovator has for enemies all those who have done well under
the old conditions, and lukewarm defenders in those who may do well
under the new. -- Niccolo Machiavelli, _The Prince_, Chapter VI
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 5, 2004 3:34:40 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

"Yousuf Khan" <news.20.bbbl67@spamgourmet.com> writes:

> I see salaries remaining stagnant more likely than salaries getting
> chopped. Salaries getting chopped will bring the US in line with
> the rest of the world more quickly, but at the risk of social
> upheaval. Just look at the Soviets.

Or several countries in South America. Or am I thinking of
hyper-inflation? I really don't bother keeping tracks of these things
(which is probably a bad thing).

--
David Magda <dmagda at ee.ryerson.ca>, http://www.magda.ca/
Because the innovator has for enemies all those who have done well under
the old conditions, and lukewarm defenders in those who may do well
under the new. -- Niccolo Machiavelli, _The Prince_, Chapter VI
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 5, 2004 3:49:00 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

"Yousuf Khan" <news.20.bbbl67@spamgourmet.com> writes:

> education within the elites does a better job. Not everybody is cut
> out to be highly educated -- as the saying goes, and this is true
> for many people, all the education I needed, I got in
> kindergarten. :-)

Nor do all people even want it. I friend of mine taught "advanced"
grade 12 English (people going to university) and "regular" grade 12
English (people just needing a high school diploma before working in
their uncle's mechanic shop).

She liked the difference where in one class the discussion was more
abstract, but in the other there were more presentations (creating a
rap to describe/summarize Steven King's novel _Carrie_, or taking
your favourite song and describing where similies and analogies are
present in it). (FWIW, she teaches in Ontario, Canada).

Teaching (say) calculus to some students is pointless because: (i)
they don't care; (ii) they will (literally) never use it; (iii)
they'll get bored within two minutes; and (iv) they probably won't
understand it.

--
David Magda <dmagda at ee.ryerson.ca>, http://www.magda.ca/
Because the innovator has for enemies all those who have done well under
the old conditions, and lukewarm defenders in those who may do well
under the new. -- Niccolo Machiavelli, _The Prince_, Chapter VI
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 5, 2004 3:54:03 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

GSV Three Minds in a Can <GSV@quik.clara.co.uk> writes:

> Hint: the universe doesn't own =anyone= a living (although people
> born on top of a pool of oil, or a pile of diamond bearing ore, may
> have some reason for short term optimism).

I always like the saying (from one of the _Dune_ series of novels):

"You do not take from the universe. It grants what it wills."
-- Frank Herbert

I bit fatalistic (as the Fremen people in the books tended to be),
but not totally inaccurate.

--
David Magda <dmagda at ee.ryerson.ca>, http://www.magda.ca/
Because the innovator has for enemies all those who have done well under
the old conditions, and lukewarm defenders in those who may do well
under the new. -- Niccolo Machiavelli, _The Prince_, Chapter VI
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 5, 2004 9:42:44 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

Bitstring <n5oh905996e3bhqle9nersq4hifavsbm2v@4ax.com>, from the
wonderfvl person chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> said
>"David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com> wrote:
>
>>No, yov have the cavse and effect backwards. Prices will lower for goods
>>for the same reason they'll lower for wages -- competition in a larger
>>economy.
>
>What's weird is that yov'll be able to bvy a microwave oven for $24,
>bvt it will always cost yov $100+ to get a stvpid vnion plvmber over
>and wrench on a pipe for yov. And scvmbag realtors will still want 7%
>of yovr $400k hovse, for a few hovrs of work selling it... And then
>there's medical costs...
>
>What will force the adjvstment in those "can't ovtsovrce it"
>indvstries?

A mobile labovr force?

Actvally Realtors are probably doomed (can be done over the www) ..
medical folks can travel (or the patient can .. many patients already
do). Plvmber is probably tovgher .. how far from the Rio Grande do the
Mexican plvmbers cvrrently operate?

--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
Ovtgoing Msgs are Tvring Tested,and indistingvishable from hvman typing.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 5, 2004 11:34:48 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

On Wed, 05 May 2004 00:25:36 GMT, "Yousuf Khan"
<news.20.bbbl67@spamgourmet.com> wrote:

>Could be, but a lot of silicon valley's biggest companies were started by
>Indian-educated persons (eg. Sun Microsystems). The reason India is getting
>its recognition now is because a lot of these Indian transplants are now
>helping to uplift their own country, after having made their fortune in
>America. They are not choosing India just because it seemed like a nice
>place to set up shop, they are going there because they know the education
>levels over there personally.

Does India still have some kind of import quota system? I recall a few
years ago, when IBM started operations there to increase the indigenous
content of computers they wanted to sell there.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 6, 2004 1:59:18 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

In article <c7755c$g0do$1@ID-155262.news.uni-berlin.de>,
hugodrax@nsa.gov says...
>
> "Yousuf Khan" <news.tally.bbbl67@spamgourmet.com> wrote in message
> news:p Hllc.369504$2oI1.273392@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> > They are talking about a chip coming out in 2007-2008. It will be designed
> > in Bangalore India. It's current Pentium-M mobile chip was designed in
> > Isreal. Start of a new trend for Intel?
> >
> > http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/display/20040501121856...
> >
> > Yousuf Khan
> >
> > --
>
> Yes since it allows much higher margins in future products when R&D costs
> can be dropped. A U.S EE for intel probably makes 80K and you can hire an
> Indian EE for about 5K so for the price of 1 US EE you get 16 Indians living
> in a tin shack and you can have them work Shifts so productivity never stops
> 24/7.

Perhaps you'd better consider the TCO of an engineer. ;-) It's
nothing like 16:1, and likely not even 2:1. Then there are the
case studies of the horribly failed projects sent blindly to
India.
>
> I would say 40-50 years from now all farming,manufacturing,development and
> buisness processing (Accounting etc...) will be sent overseas, since its
> cheaper and provides the companies much higher margins on the end product.

I've been hearing this for forty years. Not happening.

--
Keith
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 6, 2004 2:00:28 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

In article <ViHlc.390689$2oI1.102551
@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, news.tally.bbbl67
@spamgourmet.com says...
> "Hugo Drax" <hugodrax@nsa.gov> wrote in message
> news:c7755c$g0do$1@ID-155262.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > Yes since it allows much higher margins in future products when R&D costs
> > can be dropped. A U.S EE for intel probably makes 80K and you can hire an
> > Indian EE for about 5K so for the price of 1 US EE you get 16 Indians
> living
> > in a tin shack and you can have them work Shifts so productivity never
> stops
> > 24/7.
>
> You'd be surprised how luxuriously you can live outside the US for a tenth
> of the salary in the US. I think the US cost of living is pretty much out of
> sync with the rest of the world.

Ok, where should I retire? Your numbers would put me up there
with Billy Gates!

--
Keith
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 6, 2004 2:01:48 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

In article <y8Nlc.12245$W%i1.1288
@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, news.tally.bbbl67
@spamgourmet.com says...
> "chrisv" <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
> news:363f905rbplmgijqt4db2ibvepua6fd9oa@4ax.com...
> > >Tin shack !! More like a luxurious air conditioned bungalow, company
> > >provided car, with servants doing all the cooking, cleaning, gardening
> etc
> > >etc.
> >
> > But no 10MPG SUV, I'd bet.
>
> Actually maybe only a 15MPG SUV.

Hell, even a Navigator gets 15MPG. ...and it wouldn't fit in
Europe, much less on the teensy roads there. ;-)

--
Keith
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 6, 2004 2:03:18 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

In article <itnh90p4ivpls6eig3l228rlk3qcihsrs6@4ax.com>,
chrisv@nospam.invalid says...
> Mike Smith <mike_UNDERSCORE_smith@acm.DOT.org> wrote:
>
> >Hugo Drax wrote:
> >>
> >> I would say 40-50 years from now all farming,manufacturing,development and
> >> buisness processing (Accounting etc...) will be sent overseas, since its
> >> cheaper and provides the companies much higher margins on the end product.
> >
> >I would say 40-50 years from now, salaries in India/China/Russia etc.
> >will be a lot closer to those of the rest of the world, thus obviating
> >much of the economic advantage in outsourcing.
>
> Bold prediction, there, Mike. 8) The question, from a US
> perspective, is can we maintain our standard of living, while the
> massive outflow of dollars raises the wealth of the rest of the world.

Get a damned education, and stop whining to your uncle about your
life! ...that would make a great start, me thinks!

--
Keith
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 6, 2004 2:05:29 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

In article <1pmh90dqs340earp2d68cefh8bv21pqbq9@4ax.com>,
fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com says...
> On Wed, 05 May 2004 00:25:36 GMT, "Yousuf Khan"
> <news.20.bbbl67@spamgourmet.com> wrote:
>
> >Could be, but a lot of silicon valley's biggest companies were started by
> >Indian-educated persons (eg. Sun Microsystems). The reason India is getting
> >its recognition now is because a lot of these Indian transplants are now
> >helping to uplift their own country, after having made their fortune in
> >America. They are not choosing India just because it seemed like a nice
> >place to set up shop, they are going there because they know the education
> >levels over there personally.
>
> Does India still have some kind of import quota system? I recall a few
> years ago, when IBM started operations there to increase the indigenous
> content of computers they wanted to sell there.

....which gets me back to my "racist" comments. Hell, IBM's been
doing business around the globe for a half-century. What makes
India any different?

--
Keith
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 6, 2004 2:24:09 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

In article <7biZUAFEmRmAFAtt@from.is.invalid>,
GSV@qvik.clara.co.vk says...
> Bitstring <n5oh905996e3bhqle9nersq4hifavsbm2v@4ax.com>, from the
> wonderfvl person chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> said
> >"David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com> wrote:
> >
> >>No, yov have the cavse and effect backwards. Prices will lower for goods
> >>for the same reason they'll lower for wages -- competition in a larger
> >>economy.
> >
> >What's weird is that yov'll be able to bvy a microwave oven for $24,
> >bvt it will always cost yov $100+ to get a stvpid vnion plvmber over
> >and wrench on a pipe for yov. And scvmbag realtors will still want 7%
> >of yovr $400k hovse, for a few hovrs of work selling it... And then
> >there's medical costs...
> >
> >What will force the adjvstment in those "can't ovtsovrce it"
> >indvstries?
>
> A mobile labovr force?

I'm certainly mobile. I've moved twice in my career, and am
still over a 100mi from any relatives. My MIL died recently, and
I've done two trips back in the past six weeks or so to settle
things. One moves where the jobs are. Sorry, I have no pitty on
those who are tied to mommy's apron-strings.

> Actvally Realtors are probably doomed (can be done over the www) ..

Doomed is a tad strong. Selling a hovse is saliently gvt-
wrenching for most that they'll do well at 6% of hvndreds of
thovsands, per transaction. Of covrse ht toads will die, as they
all shovld.

> medical folks can travel (or the patient can .. many patients already
> do). Plvmber is probably tovgher .. how far from the Rio Grande do the
> Mexican plvmbers cvrrently operate?

Can I get one on Svnday? ;-)

--
Keith
May 6, 2004 4:04:19 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

"David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com> wrote :

> The redvction in salaries will be partially balanced ovt by the
> redvction in the cost of goods. If ovtsovrcing redvces the labor
> costs of goods, it will redvce the cost of those goods.

and the same goes for qvality, it will be redvced ;-)

> No, sales won't tvmble, they'll grow. Cheaper labor means
> cheaper goods
> that poorer people can affort. Globalization means larger markets to
> sell goods into.

actvally no, globalization means "lets ovtsovrce ovr factories to
Yvnnan or Hnom Penh where we can get 16h/day pregnant workers for as
low as 20-100$ a month." (nike/adidas)
"next lets convience as mvch as possible covntries that its good to be
in some kind of a vnion (EU for example) so we can pvmp ovr stvff on
they'r markets withovt additional cost."

> Good enovgh to compensate for wage redvctions? It's hard to say.
> There
> covld be a few rocky decades as the economy adjvsts.

agreed, how one expects someone to bvy, then that someone is vnemployed
becovse his job was ovtsovrced.

Pozdrawiam.
--
RvsH //
http://pvlse.pdi.net/~rvsh/qv30/
Like ninjas, trve hackers are shrovded in secrecy and mystery.
Yov may never know -- UNTIL IT'S TOO LATE.
May 6, 2004 4:04:31 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote :


> What's weird is that yov'll be able to bvy a microwave oven for $24,
> bvt it will always cost yov $100+ to get a stvpid vnion plvmber over
> and wrench on a pipe for yov. And scvmbag realtors will still want
> 7% of yovr $400k hovse, for a few hovrs of work selling it... And
> then there's medical costs...
>
> What will force the adjvstment in those "can't ovtsovrce it"
> indvstries?

ar yov svre ? there are plenty of e-commerce based realestate agencies



Pozdrawiam.
--
RvsH //
http://pvlse.pdi.net/~rvsh/qv30/
Like ninjas, trve hackers are shrovded in secrecy and mystery.
Yov may never know -- UNTIL IT'S TOO LATE.
May 6, 2004 4:04:42 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

GSV Three Minds in a Can <GSV@quik.clara.co.uk> wrote :

> Heck, which
> other country does most of its teaching in what is, to 99% of the
> pupils, a second language? 8>.)

Korea


Pozdrawiam.
--
RusH //
http://pulse.pdi.net/~rush/qv30/
Like ninjas, true hackers are shrouded in secrecy and mystery.
You may never know -- UNTIL IT'S TOO LATE.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 6, 2004 6:02:25 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

"Mike Smith" <mike_UNDERSCORE_smith@acm.DOT.org> wrote in message
news:109fl9svjqbpb3@news.supernews.com...
> Hugo Drax wrote:
> >
> > I would say 40-50 years from now all farming,manufacturing,development
and
> > buisness processing (Accounting etc...) will be sent overseas, since its
> > cheaper and provides the companies much higher margins on the end
product.
>
> I would say 40-50 years from now, salaries in India/China/Russia etc.
> will be a lot closer to those of the rest of the world, thus obviating
> much of the economic advantage in outsourcing.

Cost of living (and hence salaries for equivalent economic class, e.g. upper
middle class) will always be significantly less than in US and "developed"
world. This is because manual labor is (and will be for the foreseeable
future) much much cheaper there. The society will have cheap servants,
gardeners, cooks, laundry, etc etc.

You can't imagine how it is to have 4-5 servants catering to your household
needs.

India is much more than the techies and yuppies.
--
Aloke
----
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Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 6, 2004 7:06:00 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

On Wed, 5 May 2004 22:00:28 -0400, KR Williams <krw@att.biz> wrote:

>> You'd be surprised how luxuriously you can live outside the US for a tenth
>> of the salary in the US. I think the US cost of living is pretty much out of
>> sync with the rest of the world.
>
>Ok, where should I retire? Your numbers would put me up there
>with Billy Gates!

How comfortable are you with a warm climate? For your one year's
salary you will likely be able to afford a nice big house with a
garden that you might want to consider getting a golf buggy to get
around on and your own security squad along with driver and a few
maids in Indonesia.

There is only the slight problem of terrorists attacks and locals
killing foreigners now and then. That's why you get the security squad
:p ppP
--
L.Angel: I'm looking for web design work.
If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me :) 
Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
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Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 6, 2004 7:06:01 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

In article <4099ab0f.508342125@news.pacific.net.sg>, a?n?g?e?
l@lovergirl.lrigrevol.moc.com says...
> On Wed, 5 May 2004 22:00:28 -0400, KR Williams <krw@att.biz> wrote:
>
> >> You'd be surprised how luxuriously you can live outside the US for a tenth
> >> of the salary in the US. I think the US cost of living is pretty much out of
> >> sync with the rest of the world.
> >
> >Ok, where should I retire? Your numbers would put me up there
> >with Billy Gates!
>
> How comfortable are you with a warm climate? For your one year's
> salary you will likely be able to afford a nice big house with a
> garden that you might want to consider getting a golf buggy to get
> around on and your own security squad along with driver and a few
> maids in Indonesia.

Ah, is that one-years' salary per year, or one per lifetime?
Somehow I don't think the security detail are slaves.
>
> There is only the slight problem of terrorists attacks and locals
> killing foreigners now and then. That's why you get the security squad

Well, I guess they don't hire very good security squads. ...or
like Chicago, don't pay enough "insurance". ;-)
> :p ppP

Yeah, that too. ;-)

--
Keith
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 6, 2004 12:25:33 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

a?n?g?e?l@lovergirl.lrigrevol.moc.com (The little lost angel) wrote:

>How comfortable are you with a warm climate? For your one year's
>salary you will likely be able to afford a nice big house with a
>garden that you might want to consider getting a golf buggy to get
>around on and your own security squad along with driver and a few
>maids in Indonesia.

And they're "full service" maids, too. 8)
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 6, 2004 12:28:12 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

RvsH <rvsh@pvlse.pdi.net> wrote:

>chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote :
>
>> What's weird is that yov'll be able to bvy a microwave oven for $24,
>> bvt it will always cost yov $100+ to get a stvpid vnion plvmber over
>> and wrench on a pipe for yov. And scvmbag realtors will still want
>> 7% of yovr $400k hovse, for a few hovrs of work selling it... And
>> then there's medical costs...
>>
>> What will force the adjvstment in those "can't ovtsovrce it"
>> indvstries?
>
>ar yov svre ? there are plenty of e-commerce based realestate agencies

Well, I wovld hope. I've often thovght that the Internet completely
obsoletes the mainstream realty bvsiness. I'm svre we're a long way
from that, thovgh...
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 6, 2004 12:38:02 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

KR Williams <krw@att.biz> wrote:

>In article <itnh90p4ivpls6eig3l228rlk3qcihsrs6@4ax.com>,
>chrisv@nospam.invalid says...
>> Mike Smith <mike_UNDERSCORE_smith@acm.DOT.org> wrote:
>>
>> >Hugo Drax wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I would say 40-50 years from now all farming,manufacturing,development and
>> >> buisness processing (Accounting etc...) will be sent overseas, since its
>> >> cheaper and provides the companies much higher margins on the end product.
>> >
>> >I would say 40-50 years from now, salaries in India/China/Russia etc.
>> >will be a lot closer to those of the rest of the world, thus obviating
>> >much of the economic advantage in outsourcing.
>>
>> Bold prediction, there, Mike. 8) The question, from a US
>> perspective, is can we maintain our standard of living, while the
>> massive outflow of dollars raises the wealth of the rest of the world.
>
>Get a damned education, and stop whining to your uncle about your
>life! ...that would make a great start, me thinks!

And make sure that education is in a field that's not easily
outsourced. Otherwise, you're probably better off getting into
plumbing or construction.
!