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Electronics for ripping old vinyl

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Anonymous
a b à CPUs
December 14, 2004 1:20:48 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

I have some electronics-related questions about ripping vinyl.
Specifically a phone preamp to work into either a sound card or onboard
sound on an ASUS A8N8X-E.

I already OWN the IP, or at least the license to listen to it, and I
don't feel like donating enough money to the RIAA to buy ANOTHER copy of
my vinyl collection. It's been sitting in storage for about 15 years,
and I've been growing an urge to rip it, or at least start ripping it.

I have my old AR-XA turntable, with an M95ED that was new right before I
shelved my stereo due to a toddler. I figure I need a belt, but the
cartridge is probably still good. I have my old Sherwood 7100A, but the
phone preamp was the classic 2-transistor RIAA design.

I also fiddled (25+ years ago) with what was then the state-ofthe- art
LM381AN low-noise preamp chip, and have an untested breadboard design
from that era.

The simplest thing would be to plug the turntable into the Sherwood, and
plug it's tape-monitor output into the line-in of the sound card. But
if it works, or if I can cob up something similar/better, the 381 would
be a better preamp.

But I've also heard that sound can only get so good if it's inside the
computer case, and at this point I'm not going to pursue the extras to
move it outside. So does anyone have a feel for the limiting factor,
here? Is it likely to be the computer case environment, or the phono
preamp of the Sherwood? (Should I pursue a better preamp?) Any other
suggestions?

Thanks,
Dale Pontius
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
December 15, 2004 11:10:00 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

>>>>> ">" == <dale@edgehp.invalid> writes:

>> I have some electronics-related questions about ripping vinyl.
>> Specifically a phone preamp to work into either a sound card or
>> onboard sound on an ASUS A8N8X-E.

>> I already OWN the IP, or at least the license to listen to it, and
>> I don't feel like donating enough money to the RIAA to buy ANOTHER
>> copy of my vinyl collection. It's been sitting in storage for
>> about 15 years, and I've been growing an urge to rip it, or at
>> least start ripping it.

>> I have my old AR-XA turntable, with an M95ED that was new right
>> before I shelved my stereo due to a toddler. I figure I need a
>> belt, but the cartridge is probably still good. I have my old
>> Sherwood 7100A, but the phone preamp was the classic 2-transistor
>> RIAA design.

>> I also fiddled (25+ years ago) with what was then the state-ofthe-
>> art LM381AN low-noise preamp chip, and have an untested breadboard
>> design from that era.

>> The simplest thing would be to plug the turntable into the
>> Sherwood, and plug it's tape-monitor output into the line-in of
>> the sound card. But if it works, or if I can cob up something
>> similar/better, the 381 would be a better preamp.

>> But I've also heard that sound can only get so good if it's inside
>> the computer case, and at this point I'm not going to pursue the
>> extras to move it outside. So does anyone have a feel for the
>> limiting factor, here? Is it likely to be the computer case
>> environment, or the phono preamp of the Sherwood? (Should I pursue
>> a better preamp?) Any other suggestions?

>> Thanks, Dale Pontius

Give it a try you are doing exactly what I did. My equipment was no
where near as good as your equipment. However, I'm going to upgrade my
turntable for other reasons. The limiting factor is going to be the
turntable and cartridge.

There is some good software for windows for processing vinyl albums.

Good luck,

Alan

PS: I tried to go through an amp, and had ground loop hum. It is
better to plug the preamp directly into the sound card.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
December 15, 2004 7:22:23 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 22:20:48 -0500, dale@edgehp.invalid () wrote:

I look forward to hearing what others have to say about this.

>I have some electronics-related questions about ripping vinyl.
>Specifically a phone preamp to work into either a sound card or onboard
>sound on an ASUS A8N8X-E.

From what I've read of various comments, the on-board audio just doesn't
cut it. People have said that even a cheap audio card has much lower hiss
than on-board.

>I already OWN the IP, or at least the license to listen to it, and I
>don't feel like donating enough money to the RIAA to buy ANOTHER copy of
>my vinyl collection. It's been sitting in storage for about 15 years,
>and I've been growing an urge to rip it, or at least start ripping it.
>
>I have my old AR-XA turntable, with an M95ED that was new right before I
>shelved my stereo due to a toddler. I figure I need a belt, but the
>cartridge is probably still good. I have my old Sherwood 7100A, but the
>phone preamp was the classic 2-transistor RIAA design.

I've been trying to gird up for something similar but my audio stuff is
ancient too: a Thorens TD125+SME 3009 arm, with a Talisman MC cartridge
which I paid a bundle for, hooked to a Radford integrated amp. The amp is
still good and it was one of the best for its day but this is not the kind
of project one wants to repeat.:-)

>I also fiddled (25+ years ago) with what was then the state-ofthe- art
>LM381AN low-noise preamp chip, and have an untested breadboard design
>from that era.
>
>The simplest thing would be to plug the turntable into the Sherwood, and
>plug it's tape-monitor output into the line-in of the sound card. But
>if it works, or if I can cob up something similar/better, the 381 would
>be a better preamp.

How much trouble would it be to try both and see what comes out?:-)
Seriously I'd be interested to hear. I have some vinyl, in very good
condition, which is never going to be issued on CD (e.g. Gerry Mulligan '54
Paris concert) anyway and I'd love to have a more convenient medium for
listening to it.

>But I've also heard that sound can only get so good if it's inside the
>computer case, and at this point I'm not going to pursue the extras to
>move it outside. So does anyone have a feel for the limiting factor,
>here? Is it likely to be the computer case environment, or the phono
>preamp of the Sherwood? (Should I pursue a better preamp?) Any other
>suggestions?

I've seen a suggestion that a good route is to put the audio on DAT first
and then do a direct digital input to the computer. I don't have a DAT
recorder and likely have no real use for it otherwise so that's not likely
for me. I haven't paid much attention to audio in years so have no idea
what an external AD conversion box costs nor how practical it is.

The trouble with the "expert" advice here is that you tend to run into the
'philes with more money than sense.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
Related resources
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
December 15, 2004 7:22:24 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

> George Macdonald <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:

> I've seen a suggestion that a good route is to put the
> audio on DAT first and then do a direct digital input
> to the computer.

Or an external FireWire or USB2 digital audio box.

The point of which is to keep the analog signal out of
the PC. Conventional wisdom has it that doing the A/D
on the audio card will cost you 2 bits of s/n. The A/D
in a DAT recorder is presumably designed to be "hi fi"
and is clean.

And you don't really have the full 16 bits to begin with.
Unless you fully sample the entire LP before digitizing,
you don't know what the worst-case peak is, and have to
reserve some bits for headroom.

Of course, the noise floor of LP may be high enough that
tossing bits at the top, and losing bits to noise at the
bottom, still leaves you with room to play.

--
Regards, Bob Niland mailto:name@ispname.tld
http://www.access-one.com/rjn email4rjn AT yahoo DOT com
NOT speaking for any employer, client or Internet Service Provider.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
December 17, 2004 12:28:07 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

In article <hj91s0h2bfkgqv8huie8jj7jkr1o0o1f2t@4ax.com>,
George Macdonald <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> writes:
> On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 22:20:48 -0500, dale@edgehp.invalid () wrote:
>
> I look forward to hearing what others have to say about this.
>
>>I have some electronics-related questions about ripping vinyl.
>>Specifically a phone preamp to work into either a sound card or onboard
>>sound on an ASUS A8N8X-E.
>
> From what I've read of various comments, the on-board audio just doesn't
> cut it. People have said that even a cheap audio card has much lower hiss
> than on-board.
>
The system my wife and I use upstairs has a sound card, the kids'
system downstairs has sound on the planar. So I guess that means
I rip upstairs. I did a little looking today, and find that the
ES1370-based boards (I got one at a flea market) are recommended
for such recording, as internal cards go. So at least a little
luck is on my side.

>>I already OWN the IP, or at least the license to listen to it, and I
>>don't feel like donating enough money to the RIAA to buy ANOTHER copy of
>>my vinyl collection. It's been sitting in storage for about 15 years,
>>and I've been growing an urge to rip it, or at least start ripping it.
>>
>>I have my old AR-XA turntable, with an M95ED that was new right before I
>>shelved my stereo due to a toddler. I figure I need a belt, but the
>>cartridge is probably still good. I have my old Sherwood 7100A, but the
>>phone preamp was the classic 2-transistor RIAA design.
>
> I've been trying to gird up for something similar but my audio stuff is
> ancient too: a Thorens TD125+SME 3009 arm, with a Talisman MC cartridge
> which I paid a bundle for, hooked to a Radford integrated amp. The amp is
> still good and it was one of the best for its day but this is not the kind
> of project one wants to repeat.:-)
>
Whoa... I used to wish for equipment like that. I got my AR-XA in
high school as a stop-gap, until I could afford a *real* turntable.
Somehow priorities shifted as I started earning enough money to do
so, an apartment, a car, a condo, a wife, kids... When my son was
a toddler, he was into *everything*, and that's when the turntable
got put away. About that time, there was SO much noise that when
there was enough silence to listen to music, I wanted SILENCE.

I never guessed the stop-gap AR-XA would outlast the whole medium.

>>I also fiddled (25+ years ago) with what was then the state-ofthe- art
>>LM381AN low-noise preamp chip, and have an untested breadboard design
>>from that era.
>>
>>The simplest thing would be to plug the turntable into the Sherwood, and
>>plug it's tape-monitor output into the line-in of the sound card. But
>>if it works, or if I can cob up something similar/better, the 381 would
>>be a better preamp.
>
> How much trouble would it be to try both and see what comes out?:-)
> Seriously I'd be interested to hear. I have some vinyl, in very good
> condition, which is never going to be issued on CD (e.g. Gerry Mulligan '54
> Paris concert) anyway and I'd love to have a more convenient medium for
> listening to it.
>
I'll certainly try the old Sherwood. It used the classic 2-transister
per channel RIAA compensated preamp. Maybe I shouldn't denigrate it.
I suspect it's noise floor is below vinyl noise.

I'll have to see if I can even dig out the old 381AN preamp, much
less power it up and see if it actually amplifies. I'll want to
scope it out, before hooking it to any sound equipment.

>>But I've also heard that sound can only get so good if it's inside the
>>computer case, and at this point I'm not going to pursue the extras to
>>move it outside. So does anyone have a feel for the limiting factor,
>>here? Is it likely to be the computer case environment, or the phono
>>preamp of the Sherwood? (Should I pursue a better preamp?) Any other
>>suggestions?
>
> I've seen a suggestion that a good route is to put the audio on DAT first
> and then do a direct digital input to the computer. I don't have a DAT
> recorder and likely have no real use for it otherwise so that's not likely
> for me. I haven't paid much attention to audio in years so have no idea
> what an external AD conversion box costs nor how practical it is.
>
I've read about putting the sound card on the bottom, as far away
from the video as possible, and some software configuration stuff
that can cut noise - like not using halt-on-idle. Sounds like a
special set of boot parameters for ripping vinyl, but that's ok.

> The trouble with the "expert" advice here is that you tend to run into the
> 'philes with more money than sense.
>
Especially if it's more my money than their sense.

Dale Pontius
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
December 17, 2004 12:29:50 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

In article <opsi2jimzgft8z8r@news.individual.net>,
Bob Niland <email4rjn@yahoo.com> writes:
>> George Macdonald <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:
>
>> I've seen a suggestion that a good route is to put the
>> audio on DAT first and then do a direct digital input
>> to the computer.
>
> Or an external FireWire or USB2 digital audio box.
>
> The point of which is to keep the analog signal out of
> the PC. Conventional wisdom has it that doing the A/D
> on the audio card will cost you 2 bits of s/n. The A/D
> in a DAT recorder is presumably designed to be "hi fi"
> and is clean.
>
> And you don't really have the full 16 bits to begin with.
> Unless you fully sample the entire LP before digitizing,
> you don't know what the worst-case peak is, and have to
> reserve some bits for headroom.
>
> Of course, the noise floor of LP may be high enough that
> tossing bits at the top, and losing bits to noise at the
> bottom, still leaves you with room to play.
>
I started looking a little at USB external audio. The
cheapest I saw came in at $70-80, and was made by some
unfamiliar names. Keith assures me that it can be had
for less, so I need to look, more.

I also have to convince myself that the vinyl itself
isn't the limiting factor, here.

Dale Pontius
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
December 17, 2004 11:32:55 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

In article <uts992xgs4.ln2@homer.edgehp.invalid>, dale@edgehp.net
says...
> In article <opsi2jimzgft8z8r@news.individual.net>,
> Bob Niland <email4rjn@yahoo.com> writes:
> >> George Macdonald <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I've seen a suggestion that a good route is to put the
> >> audio on DAT first and then do a direct digital input
> >> to the computer.
> >
> > Or an external FireWire or USB2 digital audio box.
> >
> > The point of which is to keep the analog signal out of
> > the PC. Conventional wisdom has it that doing the A/D
> > on the audio card will cost you 2 bits of s/n. The A/D
> > in a DAT recorder is presumably designed to be "hi fi"
> > and is clean.
> >
> > And you don't really have the full 16 bits to begin with.
> > Unless you fully sample the entire LP before digitizing,
> > you don't know what the worst-case peak is, and have to
> > reserve some bits for headroom.
> >
> > Of course, the noise floor of LP may be high enough that
> > tossing bits at the top, and losing bits to noise at the
> > bottom, still leaves you with room to play.
> >
> I started looking a little at USB external audio. The
> cheapest I saw came in at $70-80, and was made by some
> unfamiliar names. Keith assures me that it can be had
> for less, so I need to look, more.

I was looking for a traditional sound card for my K6-III system and
came across several USB sound-widgets. As you indicated earlier some
are output only, but how about this one for $26 (sorry for the wrap):

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?descripti...
&depa=1

> I also have to convince myself that the vinyl itself
> isn't the limiting factor, here.

That would be my SWAG. Of course I don't believe any of the sound card
specs either. 107dB S/N, -100dB cross-talk? Please!

--
Keith
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
December 17, 2004 5:25:09 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

This FAQ seems to have all you need to know:
http://www.delback.co.uk/lp-cdr.htm

The author claims to be an audiophile with lots of
expensive gear, but the FAQ does not assume you also
have that kind of kit.
December 21, 2004 11:27:18 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 14:25:09 +0000, Rob Stow wrote:

> This FAQ seems to have all you need to know:
> http://www.delback.co.uk/lp-cdr.htm
>
> The author claims to be an audiophile with lots of
> expensive gear, but the FAQ does not assume you also
> have that kind of kit.

Interesting. I've bookmarked that page for when I have some more time and
I finally get the computers set up and stable.

--
Keith
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
December 21, 2004 12:40:06 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

In article <MPG.1c2caa0f20ff85929897e3@news.individual.net>,
Keith R. Williams <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
>In article <uts992xgs4.ln2@homer.edgehp.invalid>, dale@edgehp.net
>says...
>> In article <opsi2jimzgft8z8r@news.individual.net>,
>> Bob Niland <email4rjn@yahoo.com> writes:
>> >> George Macdonald <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> I've seen a suggestion that a good route is to put the
>> >> audio on DAT first and then do a direct digital input
>> >> to the computer.
>> >
>> > Or an external FireWire or USB2 digital audio box.
>> >
>> > The point of which is to keep the analog signal out of
>> > the PC. Conventional wisdom has it that doing the A/D
>> > on the audio card will cost you 2 bits of s/n. The A/D
>> > in a DAT recorder is presumably designed to be "hi fi"
>> > and is clean.
>> >
>> > And you don't really have the full 16 bits to begin with.
>> > Unless you fully sample the entire LP before digitizing,
>> > you don't know what the worst-case peak is, and have to
>> > reserve some bits for headroom.
>> >
>> > Of course, the noise floor of LP may be high enough that
>> > tossing bits at the top, and losing bits to noise at the
>> > bottom, still leaves you with room to play.
>> >
>> I started looking a little at USB external audio. The
>> cheapest I saw came in at $70-80, and was made by some
>> unfamiliar names. Keith assures me that it can be had
>> for less, so I need to look, more.
>
>I was looking for a traditional sound card for my K6-III system and
>came across several USB sound-widgets. As you indicated earlier some
>are output only, but how about this one for $26 (sorry for the wrap):
>
>http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?descripti...
>&depa=1
>
>> I also have to convince myself that the vinyl itself
>> isn't the limiting factor, here.
>
>That would be my SWAG. Of course I don't believe any of the sound card
>specs either. 107dB S/N, -100dB cross-talk? Please!
>
>--
> Keith

That's a neat USB gadget. I'm looking to do the same thing and this
gadget has made me think that using it with a laptop, next to the TT
would solve the problem of running 20 feet of shielded audio cable,
with it's associated loss abd groud loop (i.e. hum) problems when
connected to a grounded PC.

The laptop can be jacked into my LAN while it's digitizing
a disk.

--

a d y k e s @ p a n i x . c o m

Don't blame me. I voted for Gore.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
December 21, 2004 5:08:58 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

keith wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 14:25:09 +0000, Rob Stow wrote:
>
>
>>This FAQ seems to have all you need to know:
>> http://www.delback.co.uk/lp-cdr.htm
>>
>>The author claims to be an audiophile with lots of
>>expensive gear, but the FAQ does not assume you also
>>have that kind of kit.
>
>
> Interesting. I've bookmarked that page for when I have some more time and
> I finally get the computers set up and stable.
>

I've had it bookmarked for half a year myself - just
waiting on time and a little more gear so I can start
ripping some of my old LPs.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
December 21, 2004 5:12:22 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

keith wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 14:25:09 +0000, Rob Stow wrote:
>
>
>>This FAQ seems to have all you need to know:
>> http://www.delback.co.uk/lp-cdr.htm
>>
>>The author claims to be an audiophile with lots of
>>expensive gear, but the FAQ does not assume you also
>>have that kind of kit.
>
>
> Interesting. I've bookmarked that page for when I have some more time and
> I finally get the computers set up and stable.
>

BTW, did you just notice my post now or did it take
a few days to show up on whatever server you use ?

I've been wondering if my ISP's nntp service is having
problems with propagating new posts to the rest of
usenet.
December 21, 2004 5:12:23 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 14:12:22 +0000, Rob Stow wrote:

> keith wrote:
>> On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 14:25:09 +0000, Rob Stow wrote:
>>
>>
>>>This FAQ seems to have all you need to know:
>>> http://www.delback.co.uk/lp-cdr.htm
>>>
>>>The author claims to be an audiophile with lots of
>>>expensive gear, but the FAQ does not assume you also
>>>have that kind of kit.
>>
>>
>> Interesting. I've bookmarked that page for when I have some more time and
>> I finally get the computers set up and stable.
>>
>
> BTW, did you just notice my post now or did it take
> a few days to show up on whatever server you use ?

Naw, I've been procrastinating. I put it on my to-do list and never got
time to really read it.

> I've been wondering if my ISP's nntp service is having problems with
> propagating new posts to the rest of usenet.

I've been sitting on the article for a few days and thought I should
answer it some year. ;-)

--
Keith
!