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Counterfeit AMD Microprocessors Discovered

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January 2, 2005 5:16:38 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

Counterfeit AMD Microprocessors Discovered in Taiwan Might Have Been
Shipped to EU [ 01/02/2005 | 08:43 AM ]
Taiwan Authorities Suspend Workshop Dealing with Fake AMD Chips

Local authorities on Friday suspended a workshop that made fake, or
remarked, AMD microprocessors in Taipei, Taiwan, and seized
unprecedented number of chips of nearly one million units.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/display/20050102084049...

Ed
January 3, 2005 4:55:56 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

Ed <nomail@hotmail.com> wrote :

> Counterfeit AMD Microprocessors Discovered in Taiwan Might Have Been
> Shipped to EU [ 01/02/2005 | 08:43 AM ]
> Taiwan Authorities Suspend Workshop Dealing with Fake AMD Chips
>
> Local authorities on Friday suspended a workshop that made fake, or
> remarked, AMD microprocessors in Taipei, Taiwan, and seized
> unprecedented number of chips of nearly one million units.
> http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/display/20050102084049...

not fake but with 'fixed' stickers
Thorton 2000+ = athlona xp 2600
and so on. We had bunch of those in Poland.

Pozdrawiam.
--
RusH //
http://randki.o2.pl/profil.php?id_r=352019
Like ninjas, true hackers are shrouded in secrecy and mystery.
You may never know -- UNTIL IT'S TOO LATE.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 3, 2005 4:52:43 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

RusH <logistyka1@pf.pl> writes:

> Ed <nomail@hotmail.com> wrote :
>
>> Counterfeit AMD Microprocessors Discovered in Taiwan Might Have Been
>> Shipped to EU [ 01/02/2005 | 08:43 AM ]
>> Taiwan Authorities Suspend Workshop Dealing with Fake AMD Chips
>>
>> Local authorities on Friday suspended a workshop that made fake, or
>> remarked, AMD microprocessors in Taipei, Taiwan, and seized
>> unprecedented number of chips of nearly one million units.
>> http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/display/20050102084049...
>
> not fake but with 'fixed' stickers
> Thorton 2000+ = athlona xp 2600
> and so on. We had bunch of those in Poland.

There has been at least one case of faked/remarked AMD cpus here in
Denmark too.


Kai
--
Kai Harrekilde-Petersen <khp(at)harrekilde(dot)dk>
Related resources
January 4, 2005 2:00:46 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 13:52:43 +0100, Kai Harrekilde-Petersen wrote:

> RusH <logistyka1@pf.pl> writes:
>
>> Ed <nomail@hotmail.com> wrote :
>>
>>> Counterfeit AMD Microprocessors Discovered in Taiwan Might Have Been
>>> Shipped to EU [ 01/02/2005 | 08:43 AM ]
>>> Taiwan Authorities Suspend Workshop Dealing with Fake AMD Chips
>>>
>>> Local authorities on Friday suspended a workshop that made fake, or
>>> remarked, AMD microprocessors in Taipei, Taiwan, and seized
>>> unprecedented number of chips of nearly one million units.
>>> http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/display/20050102084049...
>>
>> not fake but with 'fixed' stickers
>> Thorton 2000+ = athlona xp 2600
>> and so on. We had bunch of those in Poland.
>
> There has been at least one case of faked/remarked AMD cpus here in
> Denmark too.

I had a tray (well, one was real) counterfeit K6s some years back. It's
an ugly situation that I thought they'd fixed.

--
Keith
January 4, 2005 4:57:03 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote :

> I had a tray (well, one was real) counterfeit K6s some years back.
> It's an ugly situation that I thought they'd fixed.

trose specific AMDs have only a sticker, no laser imprinted numbers on
the core :/ 


Pozdrawiam.
--
RusH //
http://randki.o2.pl/profil.php?id_r=352019
Like ninjas, true hackers are shrouded in secrecy and mystery.
You may never know -- UNTIL IT'S TOO LATE.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 4, 2005 6:29:59 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

RusH <logistyka1@pf.pl> writes:

> keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote :
>
>> I had a tray (well, one was real) counterfeit K6s some years back.
>> It's an ugly situation that I thought they'd fixed.
>
> trose specific AMDs have only a sticker, no laser imprinted numbers on
> the core :/ 

Germany is on the list as well, it seems:
http://www.computerworld.dk/default.asp?Mode=2&ArticleI...

Link to the story about the forged AMD processors in Denmark:
http://www.computerworld.dk/default.asp?Mode=2&ArticleI...

(Sorry, both stories are in danish).

Description of the forgery:
"De falske XP 3200+ cpu'er har en grøn farveklat mindre end en
millimeter, der hvor overlodningen er foretaget. Farveklatten kan ses
i området omkring mærket "L3" og varierer en ganske lille smule fra
originalfarven, men ellers er cpu'en udstyret med den normale label
fra AMD for en XP 3200+ cpu."

English translation:
"The forged XP3200+ CPU's have a green dot with a diameter less than
one millimeter, where the soldering has been done. The dot can be
seen near the marking 'L3' and varies slight from the original colour,
but the CPU is labeled with the normal label from AMD for an XP3200+
CPU."

Regards,


Kai
--
Kai Harrekilde-Petersen <khp(at)harrekilde(dot)dk>
January 4, 2005 6:30:00 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

Kai Harrekilde-Petersen <khp@harrekilde.dk> wrote :

> English translation:
> "The forged XP3200+ CPU's have a green dot with a diameter less
> than one millimeter, where the soldering has been done. The dot
> can be seen near the marking 'L3' and varies slight from the
> original colour, but the CPU is labeled with the normal label from
> AMD for an XP3200+ CPU."

wow, those in poland were simply relabeled, you could see in cpu-z that
the cache was 'missing'

Pozdrawiam.
--
RusH //
http://randki.o2.pl/profil.php?id_r=352019
Like ninjas, true hackers are shrouded in secrecy and mystery.
You may never know -- UNTIL IT'S TOO LATE.
January 5, 2005 1:39:31 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 13:57:03 +0000, RusH wrote:

> keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote :
>
>> I had a tray (well, one was real) counterfeit K6s some years back.
>> It's an ugly situation that I thought they'd fixed.
>
> trose specific AMDs have only a sticker, no laser imprinted numbers on
> the core :/ 

Oh, my. The fools. I don't buy Rolex watches off the streets of
Manhattan (or via spam) either.

Teh K6 frauds we bought were before the LASER signatures, but the fraud
was rather obvious. The units in question were turned over to our
beagles and then to AMD, and that's the last I head about 'em.
....and I was left with one real one to test, though frankly any
information gained from fraudulent parts wasn't all that interesting
either.

--
Keith
January 5, 2005 5:43:06 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote :

> Oh, my. The fools. I don't buy Rolex watches off the streets of
> Manhattan (or via spam) either.

big suppliers are no mexicans selling sh** in the back-alley

> Teh K6 frauds we bought were before the LASER signatures, but the
> fraud was rather obvious. The units in question were turned over
> to our beagles and then to AMD, and that's the last I head about
> 'em. ...

well, here you can turn yourselfe on a foot at most :) . My favourite
quote is "this is not ours, we dont have this serial number in our
database", forget about supplier stickers, they dont sticker because
its too expensive.

Most of AMD stock comes from Germany, so I suspect that a big chunk of
them is 'fixed', even at big retailers.

Pozdrawiam.
--
RusH //
http://randki.o2.pl/profil.php?id_r=352019
Like ninjas, true hackers are shrouded in secrecy and mystery.
You may never know -- UNTIL IT'S TOO LATE.
January 6, 2005 10:44:25 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote :

> Supplier? Why are you buying stuff that's not from the
> *manufacturer*, or authorized disty? <that's a rhetorical
> question>

well, I dont see any "authorised retailer" list on the www.amd.com

>> Most of AMD stock comes from Germany, so I suspect that a big
>> chunk of them is 'fixed', even at big retailers.
>
> Huh? They sell to distributors and direct to manufacturers. I
> highly doubt that *most* of AMD's stock "comes from" Germany.

most of Polish AMD stock, I should be more specific

> When we got our counterfeit stuff, AMD
> was packaging in Canuckistan. ...which, BTW was the tip-off. The
> bogus parts had the wrong substrate markings. It didn't come from
> Canuckistan.

Processors I saw were only rebranded, you could see the lack of cache
in cpuz or other program, maybe it was local branch of counterfeit.
AMD move to play with cache sizes and FSB was too tempting not to try
it I guess. I myselfe buy only semprons and unlock cache/mobile.

Pozdrawiam.
--
RusH //
http://randki.o2.pl/profil.php?id_r=352019
Like ninjas, true hackers are shrouded in secrecy and mystery.
You may never know -- UNTIL IT'S TOO LATE.
January 7, 2005 12:22:59 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 07:44:25 +0000, RusH wrote:

> keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote :
>
>> Supplier? Why are you buying stuff that's not from the
>> *manufacturer*, or authorized disty? <that's a rhetorical
>> question>
>
> well, I dont see any "authorised retailer" list on the www.amd.com

You don't see any distributors? Note that retailer <<>> distributor.

>>> Most of AMD stock comes from Germany, so I suspect that a big
>>> chunk of them is 'fixed', even at big retailers.
>>
>> Huh? They sell to distributors and direct to manufacturers. I
>> highly doubt that *most* of AMD's stock "comes from" Germany.
>
> most of Polish AMD stock, I should be more specific

EVen so. I didn't think they packaged stuff in Germany. Perhaps that's
where tehir distributor is??

>> When we got our counterfeit stuff, AMD was packaging in Canuckistan.
>> ...which, BTW was the tip-off. The bogus parts had the wrong substrate
>> markings. It didn't come from Canuckistan.
>
> Processors I saw were only rebranded, you could see the lack of cache in
> cpuz or other program, maybe it was local branch of counterfeit. AMD
> move to play with cache sizes and FSB was too tempting not to try it I
> guess. I myselfe buy only semprons and unlock cache/mobile.

These were chips that they dug out of the scrap somewhere. We noticed
them because they were not packaged where we knew AMD was packaging their
chips. They were AMD floor-sweepings dressed up as real parts. The
counterfeit chip market is huge in these sorts of markets.

--
Keith
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 7, 2005 1:20:25 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

In article <pan.2005.01.06.02.50.25.544415@att.bizzzz>, keith
<krw@att.bizzzz> writes

>Huh? They sell to distributors and direct to manufacturers. I highly
>doubt that *most* of AMD's stock "comes from" Germany.

Unless I've misunderstood you, AMD's fabrication plant is in Dresden.
Last time I looked, that was in Germany.

--
..sigmonster on vacation
January 7, 2005 1:20:26 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 22:20:25 +0000, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

> In article <pan.2005.01.06.02.50.25.544415@att.bizzzz>, keith
> <krw@att.bizzzz> writes
>
>>Huh? They sell to distributors and direct to manufacturers. I highly
>>doubt that *most* of AMD's stock "comes from" Germany.
>
> Unless I've misunderstood you, AMD's fabrication plant is in Dresden.
> Last time I looked, that was in Germany.

Ok, where do they package the chips? ...or are you buying naked chips?
At least I didn't think they had a packaging plant in Dresden. I could
easily be wrong here, but it would be little unusual. The large packaging
plants are in Canuckistan and the far-east.

--
Keith
January 7, 2005 10:34:09 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 21:26:31 -0500, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:

>On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 22:20:25 +0000, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
>
>> In article <pan.2005.01.06.02.50.25.544415@att.bizzzz>, keith
>> <krw@att.bizzzz> writes
>>
>>>Huh? They sell to distributors and direct to manufacturers. I highly
>>>doubt that *most* of AMD's stock "comes from" Germany.
>>
>> Unless I've misunderstood you, AMD's fabrication plant is in Dresden.
>> Last time I looked, that was in Germany.
>
>Ok, where do they package the chips? ...or are you buying naked chips?
>At least I didn't think they had a packaging plant in Dresden. I could
>easily be wrong here, but it would be little unusual. The large packaging
>plants are in Canuckistan and the far-east.


AMD Manufacturing Facilities Overview
http://www.amd.com/us-en/Corporate/Careers/0,,51_82_628...
January 7, 2005 1:15:21 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 07:34:09 -0600, Ed wrote:

> On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 21:26:31 -0500, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 22:20:25 +0000, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
>>
>>> In article <pan.2005.01.06.02.50.25.544415@att.bizzzz>, keith
>>> <krw@att.bizzzz> writes
>>>
>>>>Huh? They sell to distributors and direct to manufacturers. I highly
>>>>doubt that *most* of AMD's stock "comes from" Germany.
>>>
>>> Unless I've misunderstood you, AMD's fabrication plant is in Dresden.
>>> Last time I looked, that was in Germany.
>>
>>Ok, where do they package the chips? ...or are you buying naked chips?
>>At least I didn't think they had a packaging plant in Dresden. I could
>>easily be wrong here, but it would be little unusual. The large packaging
>>plants are in Canuckistan and the far-east.
>
>
> AMD Manufacturing Facilities Overview
> http://www.amd.com/us-en/Corporate/Careers/0,,51_82_628...

Yes, this makes more sense:

AMD's back-end manufacturing facilities are located in Penang,
Malaysia; Bangkok, Thailand; Singapore and Suzhou, China.

--
Keith
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 7, 2005 7:52:36 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 21:26:31 -0500, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> put finger
to keyboard and composed:

>On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 22:20:25 +0000, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
>
>> In article <pan.2005.01.06.02.50.25.544415@att.bizzzz>, keith
>> <krw@att.bizzzz> writes
>>
>>>Huh? They sell to distributors and direct to manufacturers. I highly
>>>doubt that *most* of AMD's stock "comes from" Germany.
>>
>> Unless I've misunderstood you, AMD's fabrication plant is in Dresden.
>> Last time I looked, that was in Germany.
>
>Ok, where do they package the chips? ...or are you buying naked chips?
>At least I didn't think they had a packaging plant in Dresden. I could
>easily be wrong here, but it would be little unusual. The large packaging
>plants are in Canuckistan and the far-east.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/display/20050106142242...

"The microprocessors that were illegally sold might have been stolen
from one of AMD’s three packaging and testing plants in Asia and
shipped to Taiwan for re-marking. The possible source of the defective
chips could be one of AMD’s packaging and testing plants in Singapore
or Malaysia, or in Suzhou, Jiangsu Province (China)."


- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 's' from my address when replying by email.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 8, 2005 7:36:41 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

In article <pan.2005.01.07.15.15.19.480329@att.bizzzz>, keith
<krw@att.bizzzz> writes

> AMD's back-end manufacturing facilities are located in Penang,
> Malaysia; Bangkok, Thailand; Singapore and Suzhou, China.

Thanks all. I'd assumed wafer fabrication and encapsulation into PGA
package would both take place at the same plant, but apparently not.

--
..sigmonster on vacation
January 8, 2005 1:22:10 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 04:36:41 +0000, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

> In article <pan.2005.01.07.15.15.19.480329@att.bizzzz>, keith
> <krw@att.bizzzz> writes
>
>> AMD's back-end manufacturing facilities are located in Penang,
>> Malaysia; Bangkok, Thailand; Singapore and Suzhou, China.
>
> Thanks all. I'd assumed wafer fabrication and encapsulation into PGA
> package would both take place at the same plant, but apparently not.

That's the obvious conclusion, but packaging is "low tech" stuff and can
be more easily shiped to a lower cost location. The daily output of a fab
isn't a large volume and is easily shipped. I thought it strange that the
wafers made here were sometimes shipped (sometimes hand-carried) to the
far-east for packaging and then back for test. ...seems like a waste, but
the bean-counters own the beans.

--
Keith
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 10, 2005 8:10:58 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 07:44:25 +0000 (UTC), RusH <logistyka1@pf.pl>
wrote:

>keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote :
>
>> Supplier? Why are you buying stuff that's not from the
>> *manufacturer*, or authorized disty? <that's a rhetorical
>> question>
>
>well, I dont see any "authorised retailer" list on the www.amd.com

Ya didn't look too hard now did ya?

http://www2.amd.com/us-en/sbl/front/1,,,00.html


Ok, to be fair, this list is only for the US/Canada. However Keith
was specifically talking about authorized distributors, of which there
are usually only a handful (or less) in any given country.

>> Huh? They sell to distributors and direct to manufacturers. I
>> highly doubt that *most* of AMD's stock "comes from" Germany.
>
>most of Polish AMD stock, I should be more specific

What do you mean it "comes from Germany"? Is that where they are
assembled? Is that where the Authorized Distributors for Poland are
all located? Or is that where you're gray-market parts are being
funneled through?

>> When we got our counterfeit stuff, AMD
>> was packaging in Canuckistan. ...which, BTW was the tip-off. The
>> bogus parts had the wrong substrate markings. It didn't come from
>> Canuckistan.
>
>Processors I saw were only rebranded, you could see the lack of cache
>in cpuz or other program, maybe it was local branch of counterfeit.

These chips OBVIOUSLY would not have come through any sort of
authorized channel. They were most certainly chips that found their
way into the gray market, where remarked by some scammer and then
filtered back into the market through some shady dealers. Such things
happen regularly.

Occasionally, as might have happened in the Taiwanese case, an
Authorized AMD distributor might have picked up the remarked chips
through the gray-market and sold them as OEM chips. Some of the big
distributors will do this, but it's fairly rare. Most of the proper
distributors will only purchase direct through AMD or will be VERY
careful about any gray market chips they buy and clearly sell them as
such.

>AMD move to play with cache sizes and FSB was too tempting not to try
>it I guess. I myselfe buy only semprons and unlock cache/mobile.

I only buy boxed processors, so I avoid all this trouble... Err, at
least in theory. I do know that a few years back ('98 or '99 I
think?) there WERE some Intel PII or PIII chips that were being
remarked and than repackaged into proper Intel boxes. I guess some
rather stores were making a bit of cash on the side by reselling the
boxes for these processors AFTER selling the actual chips to users.
However that was pretty short-lived, and I suspect that there just
isn't any money in such a complicated setup these days. Getting the
processors, the boxes, the heatsinks, remarking the chips and then
packaging it all up would probably result in razor-thin profit margins
and products that are pretty easy to track.

-------------
Tony Hill
hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca
January 10, 2005 11:30:44 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca> wrote :

> Ya didn't look too hard now did ya?

I did

> http://www2.amd.com/us-en/sbl/front/1,,,00.html
>
> Ok, to be fair, this list is only for the US/Canada

exactly

> However
> Keith was specifically talking about authorized distributors, of
> which there are usually only a handful (or less) in any given
> country.

This is the company i was talking about :
http://www.ab.pl/firma/dostawcy-wg-statusu.php

They were 7th 5 years ago, now they'r hmm 4-5 largest distributor.
No AMD on the list. No Intel either. We bouth processors and ram from
small importers (very handy, you keep independent from central source
and get competitive prices). And I mean few boxes the size of 15' CRT
monitor every week so it were no small pickles.

>>most of Polish AMD stock, I should be more specific
>
> What do you mean it "comes from Germany"? Is that where they are
> assembled?

No, they were imported mostly from Germany. Suposedly from authorised
distributor (but you never know for sure when price is the main
factor).

> Is that where the Authorized Distributors for Poland
> are all located? Or is that where you're gray-market parts are
> being funneled through?

Thats the second Polish source of all pc parts after 3 biggest
distributors.

> proper distributors will only purchase direct through AMD or will
> be VERY careful about any gray market chips they buy and clearly
> sell them as such.

'very careful' is not the phrase i'm familiar with. 'VERY cheap' -
now that sounds about right.

> at least in theory. I do know that a few years back ('98 or '99 I
> think?) there WERE some Intel PII or PIII chips that were being
> remarked and than repackaged into proper Intel boxes. I guess
> some rather stores were making a bit of cash on the side by
> reselling the boxes for these processors AFTER selling the actual
> chips to users. However that was pretty short-lived, and I suspect
> that there just isn't any money in such a complicated setup these
> days. Getting the processors, the boxes, the heatsinks, remarking
> the chips and then packaging it all up would probably result in
> razor-thin profit margins and products that are pretty easy to
> track.

but selling computers with overclocked processors as faster
counterparts is still a common practise. Most come from small shops,
stickered up so you cant open the case without voiding your
guarantee. Of course nobody reasonable will buy unopenable computer
case, but we live in unreasonable world (can you spell supermarket
computer buyers ?).
And its a BIG busines, big enougth for ECS. False advertised ECS
K7SOM+/L7VMM3A overclocked durons with fixed PRO something +500-
1000MHz texts, ECS Wallmart notebooks with fixed CPU strings and so
on.

Pozdrawiam.
--
RusH //
http://randki.o2.pl/profil.php?id_r=352019
Like ninjas, true hackers are shrouded in secrecy and mystery.
You may never know -- UNTIL IT'S TOO LATE.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 11, 2005 5:23:37 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:30:44 +0000 (UTC), RusH <logistyka1@pf.pl>
wrote:

>Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca> wrote :
>
>> However
>> Keith was specifically talking about authorized distributors, of
>> which there are usually only a handful (or less) in any given
>> country.
>
>This is the company i was talking about :
>http://www.ab.pl/firma/dostawcy-wg-statusu.php
>
>They were 7th 5 years ago, now they'r hmm 4-5 largest distributor.
>No AMD on the list. No Intel either. We bouth processors and ram from
>small importers (very handy, you keep independent from central source
>and get competitive prices). And I mean few boxes the size of 15' CRT
>monitor every week so it were no small pickles.

I'm not sure I follow you here. Is the above company the
(non-authorized) distributor that you are buying chips from, or are
you with that company and you buy from another one?

>>>most of Polish AMD stock, I should be more specific
>>
>> What do you mean it "comes from Germany"? Is that where they are
>> assembled?
>
>No, they were imported mostly from Germany. Suposedly from authorised
>distributor (but you never know for sure when price is the main
>factor).

If a company is flying the AMD logo as an authorized distributor they
sure as hell better be one, otherwise they could quickly find
themselves in hot water. Of course, for some fly-by-night operation
this might not be a worry since they'll be gone before anyone notices,
but this is why no one in their right mind would by parts from such a
fly-by-night shop.

>> Is that where the Authorized Distributors for Poland
>> are all located? Or is that where you're gray-market parts are
>> being funneled through?
>
>Thats the second Polish source of all pc parts after 3 biggest
>distributors.


Well, here is the list of AMD Authorized Distributors in all of
Europe:

http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/TechnicalResources/...


There are 8 shops listed in Poland, though the one you mentioned above
is not one of them. Note that a lot of these places are not so much
Polish companies, but rather international companies with offices in
Poland.

>> proper distributors will only purchase direct through AMD or will
>> be VERY careful about any gray market chips they buy and clearly
>> sell them as such.
>
>'very careful' is not the phrase i'm familiar with. 'VERY cheap' -
>now that sounds about right.

If they are an authorized distributor, they will be very careful or
else their lose their authorization. If they are not an authorized
distributor than they will throw any bargain-basement trash out that
they can.

>> at least in theory. I do know that a few years back ('98 or '99 I
>> think?) there WERE some Intel PII or PIII chips that were being
>> remarked and than repackaged into proper Intel boxes. I guess
>> some rather stores were making a bit of cash on the side by
>> reselling the boxes for these processors AFTER selling the actual
>> chips to users. However that was pretty short-lived, and I suspect
>> that there just isn't any money in such a complicated setup these
>> days. Getting the processors, the boxes, the heatsinks, remarking
>> the chips and then packaging it all up would probably result in
>> razor-thin profit margins and products that are pretty easy to
>> track.
>
>but selling computers with overclocked processors as faster
>counterparts is still a common practise. Most come from small shops,
>stickered up so you cant open the case without voiding your
>guarantee. Of course nobody reasonable will buy unopenable computer
>case, but we live in unreasonable world (can you spell supermarket
>computer buyers ?).
>And its a BIG busines, big enougth for ECS. False advertised ECS
>K7SOM+/L7VMM3A overclocked durons with fixed PRO something +500-
>1000MHz texts, ECS Wallmart notebooks with fixed CPU strings and so
>on.

Sure, there are shysters and scammers everywhere in the computer
industry. That's why Intel and AMD have authorized distributors in
the first place. If they could trust every fly-by-night shop then
they wouldn't have to worry about validating their partners.

-------------
Tony Hill
hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca
January 11, 2005 1:11:56 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca> wrote :

>>This is the company i was talking about :
>>http://www.ab.pl/firma/dostawcy-wg-statusu.php
>>
>>They were 7th 5 years ago, now they'r hmm 4-5 largest distributor.
>>No AMD on the list. No Intel either. We bouth processors and ram
>>from small importers (very handy, you keep independent from
>>central source and get competitive prices). And I mean few boxes
>>the size of 15' CRT monitor every week so it were no small
>>pickles.
>
> I'm not sure I follow you here. Is the above company the
> (non-authorized) distributor that you are buying chips from, or
> are you with that company and you buy from another one?

This is the company I was working 5 years ago. The situation havent
changed a lot since then.

> If a company is flying the AMD logo as an authorized distributor
> they sure as hell better be one

I know 3 Polish authorised AMD distributors (action.pl ntt.pl and
incom.pl), and none of them is the the company I'm talking about.

> otherwise they could quickly find
> themselves in hot water. Of course, for some fly-by-night
> operation this might not be a worry since they'll be gone before
> anyone notices, but this is why no one in their right mind would
> by parts from such a fly-by-night shop.

In my experience nobody gives a flying rats ass about company being or
not being authorised. Price and the level of service counts, not the
logo. For example authorised AMD distributor (action.pl) likes to screw
even its big customers when it comes to servicing parts. AMD processors
have almost no guarantee (even BOX ones). There is virtually no benefit
from buyind AMD there, and others have better prices (if you want <100
processors a week).

> Well, here is the list of AMD Authorized Distributors in all of
> Europe:
>
> http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/TechnicalResources/...
> 59_710%5E773,00.html

ok, want to hear a funny thing ? I'm >5 years in PC busines, live in
Warsaw (WARSZAWA) ... and NEVER EVER heard about first 5 firms from
that list. EVER.
Now that I checked 1 of them is a Germany company contact sales office,
one is an international company contact sales office, and the rest are
some kind of multicompany contact sales offices (selling
AGD/RTV/PC/electronics stuff). Maybe one of them even has a storage so
you can actually buy instead of waiting 1-2 days for delivery + you get
to talk with someone when RMAing, but I wouldnt count on that.

> Note that a lot of these places are not
> so much Polish companies, but rather international companies with
> offices in Poland.

Yust remember that those offices are 2 sales people + a nice woman. No
stock on the site, no service, no nothing. I can do the same buing from
Germany distributor.

> If they are an authorized distributor, they will be very careful
> or else their lose their authorization

yes, 'very careful' means denying guarantee, because AMD processors
dont die on their own (thats action.pl policy wright there), they die
becaus you brake them intentionally :) 

>>but selling computers with overclocked processors as faster
>>counterparts is still a common practise. Most come from small
>>shops, stickered up so you cant open the case without voiding your
>>guarantee. Of course nobody reasonable will buy unopenable
>>computer case, but we live in unreasonable world (can you spell
>>supermarket computer buyers ?).
>>And its a BIG busines, big enougth for ECS. False advertised ECS
>>K7SOM+/L7VMM3A overclocked durons with fixed PRO something +500-
>>1000MHz texts, ECS Wallmart notebooks with fixed CPU strings and
>>so on.
>
> Sure, there are shysters and scammers everywhere in the computer
> industry. That's why Intel and AMD have authorized distributors
> in the first place. If they could trust every fly-by-night shop
> then they wouldn't have to worry about validating their partners.

Maybe I will repeat - ECS, Wallmart. Do those names sound fly-by-night
to you ?

Pozdrawiam.
--
RusH //
http://randki.o2.pl/profil.php?id_r=352019
Like ninjas, true hackers are shrouded in secrecy and mystery.
You may never know -- UNTIL IT'S TOO LATE.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 11, 2005 11:21:01 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:11:56 +0000 (UTC), RusH <logistyka1@pf.pl>
wrote:

>In my experience nobody gives a flying rats ass about company being or
>not being authorised. Price and the level of service counts, not the
>logo. For example authorised AMD distributor (action.pl) likes to screw
>even its big customers when it comes to servicing parts. AMD processors
>have almost no guarantee (even BOX ones). There is virtually no benefit
>from buyind AMD there, and others have better prices (if you want <100
>processors a week).

I'll second RusH on this one. The friends I know who work in
retail/reseller outfits almost never buy from the distributors listed
at AMD. They told me that the unlisted distributors almost always give
better pricing and the time it takes to RMA an AMD processor is the
same indeterminable long wait either way.


--
L.Angel: I'm looking for web design work.
If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me :) 
Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code
January 12, 2005 12:40:26 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 20:21:01 +0000, The little lost angel wrote:

> On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:11:56 +0000 (UTC), RusH <logistyka1@pf.pl>
> wrote:
>
>>In my experience nobody gives a flying rats ass about company being or
>>not being authorised. Price and the level of service counts, not the
>>logo. For example authorised AMD distributor (action.pl) likes to screw
>>even its big customers when it comes to servicing parts. AMD processors
>>have almost no guarantee (even BOX ones). There is virtually no benefit
>>from buyind AMD there, and others have better prices (if you want <100
>>processors a week).
>
> I'll second RusH on this one. The friends I know who work in
> retail/reseller outfits almost never buy from the distributors listed
> at AMD. They told me that the unlisted distributors almost always give
> better pricing and the time it takes to RMA an AMD processor is the
> same indeterminable long wait either way.

If you deal with the devil, you takes your chances. That's the bottom
line here. Even though I like a good deal, I *never* buy OEM or "gray"
processors. OTOH, I have bought gray sound cards, and the like (no choice).

--
Keith
January 12, 2005 6:03:44 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote :

> If you deal with the devil, you takes your chances. That's the
> bottom line here. Even though I like a good deal, I *never* buy
> OEM or "gray" processors. OTOH, I have bought gray sound cards,
> and the like (no choice).

Do you really think that fifth national parts distributor is 'gray'?
Especially when they have beter service than the others (instant
exchange of broken ram etc).

Pozdrawiam.
--
RusH //
http://randki.o2.pl/profil.php?id_r=352019
Like ninjas, true hackers are shrouded in secrecy and mystery.
You may never know -- UNTIL IT'S TOO LATE.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 12, 2005 6:21:22 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

RusH <logistyka1@pf.pl> wrote:
> keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote :
>> If you deal with the devil, you takes your chances.
>> That's the bottom line here. Even though I like a good
>> deal, I *never* buy OEM or "gray" processors. OTOH,
>> I have bought gray sound cards, and the like (no choice).
>
> Do you really think that fifth national parts distributor is
> 'gray'? Especially when they have beter service than the
> others (instant exchange of broken ram etc).

He may not be. Anti-gray laws vary across Europe, both in the
writing and enforcement. Gray is explicitly legal in the US.

Business in Europe and America isn't the same. Lower barriers
to entry in the US mean more shady "fly-by-night" outfits
(PriceWatch bottomfeeders) that Keith is rightfully leary of.
Polish firms may be more protective of their reputations
than their short-term profits.

I don't know if Poland is more like the Russian anarchy
or the German overcontrol.

-- Robert
January 12, 2005 6:36:54 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

Robert Redelmeier <redelm@ev1.net.invalid> wrote :

> I don't know if Poland is more like the Russian anarchy

no

> or the German overcontrol.

no again. Government cares about the highest bidder, but sometimes acts
like a schizofrenic and fuks everybody over. Very unstable environment
+ tax law changes almost every month + poor infrastructure
(roads,internet).
Sure, we have one of the highest GDP in UE, but nobody likes unstable
economy.

Pozdrawiam.
--
RusH //
http://randki.o2.pl/profil.php?id_r=352019
Like ninjas, true hackers are shrouded in secrecy and mystery.
You may never know -- UNTIL IT'S TOO LATE.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 12, 2005 6:51:23 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

RusH <logistyka1@pf.pl> wrote:
> no again. Government cares about the highest bidder, but
> sometimes acts like a schizofrenic and fuks everybody over.

Hey! That sounds like governments everywhere. :) 

> Very unstable environment + tax law changes almost every month
> + poor infrastructure (roads,internet). Sure, we have one of
> the highest GDP in UE, but nobody likes unstable economy.

My sympathies. Sooner or later, some bright party is going
to realize that people like stability more than the perfect
policy. One usual thing in America is "grandfathering",
something started under an old tax code is allowed to continue
under that treatment. For taxes to be suddenly increased
could be considered an unconstitutional "taking" (5th Amend).
The new code only applies to new things.

-- Robert
January 12, 2005 6:51:24 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 03:51:23 +0000, Robert Redelmeier wrote:

> RusH <logistyka1@pf.pl> wrote:
>> no again. Government cares about the highest bidder, but
>> sometimes acts like a schizofrenic and fuks everybody over.
>
> Hey! That sounds like governments everywhere. :) 
>
>> Very unstable environment + tax law changes almost every month
>> + poor infrastructure (roads,internet). Sure, we have one of
>> the highest GDP in UE, but nobody likes unstable economy.
>
> My sympathies. Sooner or later, some bright party is going
> to realize that people like stability more than the perfect
> policy.

Absolutely. When the tax laws are up in the air, the economy goes into
hybernation. Once they're resolved (either way) things get back to
normal. In this case, bad news can be better than no news.

> One usual thing in America is "grandfathering",
> something started under an old tax code is allowed to continue under
> that treatment. For taxes to be suddenly increased could be considered
> an unconstitutional "taking" (5th Amend). The new code only applies to
> new things.

That sounds great in theory, but what about Clinton's retroactive tax
increase?

--
Keith
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 12, 2005 5:07:50 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
> That sounds great in theory, but what about Clinton's
> retroactive tax increase?

Well, nothing's perfect. Least of all taxation. Income Tax
would be unconstitutional and had to be authorized by the 16th
Amendment. That gives something of a loophole from "takings".

Still, these sorts of things are generally viewed as unfair.
Stranding investments is resented. And if it is your
regret today, it may be mine tomorrow. I wonder how the
Congresscritters that caved to Clinton's pressure fared,
and what his leverage was?

-- Robert
January 13, 2005 12:25:05 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:07:50 +0000, Robert Redelmeier wrote:

> keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
>> That sounds great in theory, but what about Clinton's
>> retroactive tax increase?
>
> Well, nothing's perfect. Least of all taxation. Income Tax
> would be unconstitutional and had to be authorized by the 16th
> Amendment. That gives something of a loophole from "takings".

Retroactive is still...

> Still, these sorts of things are generally viewed as unfair.
> Stranding investments is resented.

Rather like a fiend who is stuck with real-estate
limited-partnership losses that he has to pay capital-gains on. ...or my
mother who lost *real* money in mutual funds, but still had to pay capital
gains on the same funds. One shouldn't have to pay gains until and unless
they're realized. Of course I'm a radical conservative and don't believe
in any gains or corporate taxes. Capital gains taxes are double-taxed (or
worse) and the consumer pays all corporate taxes. Both are rotten.


> And if it is your regret today, it may be mine tomorrow. I wonder how the
> Congresscritters that caved to Clinton's pressure fared, and what his
> leverage was?

Unabashed liberalism. He quickly learned the lesson, though most of his
cronies still haven't. Dick Morris is a good read on Clintonism. The man
isn't stupid. Out-of-control certainly, but not stupid. The same can't
be said for the rest.

--
Keith
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 13, 2005 6:53:37 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
> Retroactive is still...

.... unconstitutional. Article 1 sec 9: "No Bill of Attainder
or ex post facto law shall be passed".

> ...or my mother who lost *real* money in mutual funds,
> but still had to pay capital gains on the same funds.

She could probably refile, recovering past gains against
current losses. But it takes specialized knowledge.

> One shouldn't have to pay gains until and unless they're
> realized.

That's the problem with open-ended mutual funds. They're
realizing profits all the time. Better off with closed
ended like Birkshire-Hathaway.

> Of course I'm a radical conservative and don't believe
> in any gains or corporate taxes. Capital gains taxes
> are double-taxed (or worse) and the consumer pays all
> corporate taxes. Both are rotten.

So you're liberal enough to believe in other Income Taxes? :) 
Many Euro nations have no/reduced cap gains tax, but very few
legislatures are smart enough to realize that ALL corporate
taxes are paid by consumers.

> Dick Morris is a good read on Clintonism. The man
> isn't stupid. Out-of-control certainly, but not stupid.
> The same can't be said for the rest.

Including his "wife"? Thanks for the pointer to Morris.

-- Robert
January 13, 2005 6:53:38 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 03:53:37 +0000, Robert Redelmeier wrote:

> keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
>> Retroactive is still...
>
> ... unconstitutional. Article 1 sec 9: "No Bill of Attainder
> or ex post facto law shall be passed".

Apparently the Constitution is null and void for "voluntary" tax payments.

>> ...or my mother who lost *real* money in mutual funds, but still had to
>> pay capital gains on the same funds.
>
> She could probably refile, recovering past gains against current losses.
> But it takes specialized knowledge.

Nope. Same year gains and losses. The gains are realized when the fund
gains. The losses are taken when you get out. Both can happen in the
same tax year, amazingly enough.

>> One shouldn't have to pay gains until and unless they're realized.
>
> That's the problem with open-ended mutual funds. They're realizing
> profits all the time. Better off with closed ended like
> Birkshire-Hathaway.

If you have $100K/share. ;-) This was *not* always the case. At one
time the gains weren't realized until you had cash in hand.

>> Of course I'm a radical conservative and don't believe in any gains or
>> corporate taxes. Capital gains taxes are double-taxed (or worse) and
>> the consumer pays all corporate taxes. Both are rotten.
>
> So you're liberal enough to believe in other Income Taxes? :)  Many Euro
> nations have no/reduced cap gains tax, but very few legislatures are
> smart enough to realize that ALL corporate taxes are paid by consumers.

Actually, yes. I prefer it over consumption taxes. Of course I'd prefer
a flat income tax.

>> Dick Morris is a good read on Clintonism. The man isn't stupid.
>> Out-of-control certainly, but not stupid. The same can't be said for
>> the rest.
>
> Including his "wife"?

Most certainly!

> Thanks for the pointer to Morris.

Morris was Clinton's soul (Presidency by the poll). He's a very astute
political wonk. He called the last election in July, IIRC.

--
Keith
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 13, 2005 1:51:00 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

keith wrote:

>Capital gains taxes are double-taxed (or
>worse) and the consumer pays all corporate taxes. Both are rotten.

Well, someone's got to pay the bills. You could argue for eternity
about the "correct" distribution of the burden...
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 13, 2005 4:58:30 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
> Apparently the Constitution is null and void for
> "voluntary" tax payments.

Well, of course it is! The Constitution is all about forbidden
coersions. Police searches without warrent are legal if you consent.

> Actually, yes. I prefer it over consumption taxes.
> Of course I'd prefer a flat income tax.

How flat? Poll-tax flat? Or a fixed percentage? I think
I'd prefer a tax on contracts, particularly loans.

> Morris was Clinton's soul (Presidency by the poll).
> He's a very astute political wonk. He called the last
> election in July, IIRC.

A brave man.

-- Robert
January 14, 2005 12:36:57 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:58:30 +0000, Robert Redelmeier wrote:

> keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
>> Apparently the Constitution is null and void for
>> "voluntary" tax payments.
>
> Well, of course it is! The Constitution is all about forbidden
> coersions. Police searches without warrent are legal if you consent.

I put "voluntary" in quotes, becasue according to the US government we
have a "voluntary" tax system. We volunteer to not go to prison.
>
>> Actually, yes. I prefer it over consumption taxes. Of course I'd
>> prefer a flat income tax.
>
> How flat? Poll-tax flat? Or a fixed percentage? I think I'd prefer a
> tax on contracts, particularly loans.

As *flat* as Kansas! Percentage, BTW. Everyone pays, no one (other than
the infirm) gets a ride. A poll tax is interesting only in that people
who don't pay taxes out of their hip don't understand the consequences of
their actions. Example, college students in dorms voting in property tax
increases for city services that the taxpayers have no use for.

>> Morris was Clinton's soul (Presidency by the poll). He's a very astute
>> political wonk. He called the last election in July, IIRC.
>
> A brave man.

Not brave at all. He saw the writing on the wall. Even soccer-moms
turned to the 'R's. You really should read his pieces for the past
year. Well, he hasn't written much for the past three months, since he
was working for Yush. His mid-December article on the Ukraine debacle was
great.

--
Keith
January 14, 2005 12:38:26 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 10:51:00 -0600, chrisv wrote:

> keith wrote:
>
>>Capital gains taxes are double-taxed (or
>>worse) and the consumer pays all corporate taxes. Both are rotten.
>
> Well, someone's got to pay the bills. You could argue for eternity
> about the "correct" distribution of the burden...

Double taxation is simply unfair, any way you cut it. ...not to mention
counter-productive. I suppose you like the death-tax too (even though the
poor sod paid taxes one to three times on that money already).

--
Keith
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 14, 2005 6:26:43 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
> We volunteer to not go to prison.

And enjoy cable TV at Club Fed? Isn't that prohibited under
"cruel and unusual punishment"? :) 

> Example, college students in dorms voting in property tax
> increases for city services that the taxpayers have no use for.

Yeah, that's pretty egregious. It might be voter fraud, but
democracy essentially is people taking other peoples money.

> Not brave at all. He saw the writing on the wall.

Yes, but to say so in the middle of a camp of Democrats as
rabid as they were in June takes some courage. He'd've
feared being tarred-and-feathered as a turncoat. As I
recall, the rhetoric and mood was extremely divisive.

> You really should read his pieces for the past year.

Any good URLs?

-- Robert
January 15, 2005 1:44:14 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 03:26:43 +0000, Robert Redelmeier wrote:

> keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
>> We volunteer to not go to prison.
>
> And enjoy cable TV at Club Fed? Isn't that prohibited under
> "cruel and unusual punishment"? :) 

Well... Our cable bill (part of that Internet) is $130+/mo, so yes that
is C&U!

>> Example, college students in dorms voting in property tax increases for
>> city services that the taxpayers have no use for.
>
> Yeah, that's pretty egregious. It might be voter fraud, but democracy
> essentially is people taking other peoples money.

Nope, not fraud. Wrong, but not fraud. They're registered voters. The
courts have decided that they can declare residency in their dorms. ...as
assinine as that is.
>
>> Not brave at all. He saw the writing on the wall.
>
> Yes, but to say so in the middle of a camp of Democrats as rabid as they
> were in June takes some courage. He'd've feared being
> tarred-and-feathered as a turncoat. As I recall, the rhetoric and mood
> was extremely divisive.

You haven't followed Dick Morris much have you. He was thrown out of the
Clinton Whitehouse as being just such a person, after getting the bastard
re-elected.

>> You really should read his pieces for the past year.
>
> Any good URLs?


I normally read DM's collumns on the NY Post site, but I did find an
archive by searching for; "Dick Morris" + archive. ;-)

http://caglecartoons.com/archiveColumnist.asp?columnist...{CA079D16-9DF1-49EC-A86B-01A5050C35E7}

--
Keith
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 15, 2005 7:25:58 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
> Well... Our cable bill (part of that Internet) is $130+/mo,
> so yes that is C&U!

Ah, but you live in the Peoples Green Republic, so you
must expect to pay through the nose and other body orifices.

> Nope, not fraud. Wrong, but not fraud. They're registered
> voters. The courts have decided that they can declare
> residency in their dorms. ...as assinine as that is.

I guess it would depend on state law.

> You haven't followed Dick Morris much have you. He was

No. His name was new to me.

> thrown out of the Clinton Whitehouse as being just such
> a person, after getting the bastard re-elected.

Oh, a Friend of Hilary :) 

> http://caglecartoons.com/archiveColumnist.asp?columnist...{CA079D16-9DF1-49EC-A86B-01A5050C35E7}

Thanks.

-- Robert
January 15, 2005 7:25:59 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 04:25:58 +0000, Robert Redelmeier wrote:

> keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
>> Well... Our cable bill (part of that Internet) is $130+/mo,
>> so yes that is C&U!
>
> Ah, but you live in the Peoples Green Republic, so you
> must expect to pay through the nose and other body orifices.

Ouch, do you have to remind me?!! I was wondering why there
weren't more procologists here, but then I remembered that we had
Howie Dean. "This won't hurt, much".

>> Nope, not fraud. Wrong, but not fraud. They're registered
>> voters. The courts have decided that they can declare
>> residency in their dorms. ...as assinine as that is.
>
> I guess it would depend on state law.

Nope, it was decided by the SCotUS back when I was in college. You can
declare your residency wherever you are, and are not required to
declare it where you (or your parents) pay taxes. If you meet the months,
you're eligible to be a resident.

>> You haven't followed Dick Morris much have you. He was
>
> No. His name was new to me.

Bill Clinton's polster?

>> thrown out of the Clinton Whitehouse as being just such a person, after
>> getting the bastard re-elected.
>
> Oh, a Friend of Hilary :) 

Was. He's burned many sheets from the Lincoln bedroom.

>> http://caglecartoons.com/archiveColumnist.asp?columnist...{CA079D16-9DF1-49EC-A86B-01A5050C35E7}
>
> Thanks.

I've been reading him for perhaps six years, maybe more. In some ways
he's changed, some not. His insights into Bill and Hill are great though.
He's got them pegged (he was their boy).

--
Keith
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 15, 2005 9:40:57 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

"keith" <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote in message
news:p an.2005.01.15.03.44.12.655590@att.bizzzz...
>
> Nope, not fraud. Wrong, but not fraud. They're registered voters.
The
> courts have decided that they can declare residency in their dorms.
....as
> assinine as that is.

College students are commonly 18 yrs old (or more) and hence are
legally adults. They typically spend 9 months a year in their dorms
(more if enrolled in summer programs). Keith, why is it assinine for
them to declare residency in what is obviously their principle
residence?
January 15, 2005 9:40:58 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 18:40:57 +0000, Felger Carbon wrote:

> "keith" <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote in message
> news:p an.2005.01.15.03.44.12.655590@att.bizzzz...
>>
>> Nope, not fraud. Wrong, but not fraud. They're registered voters.
> The
>> courts have decided that they can declare residency in their dorms.
> ...as
>> assinine as that is.
>
> College students are commonly 18 yrs old (or more) and hence are
> legally adults. They typically spend 9 months a year in their dorms
> (more if enrolled in summer programs). Keith, why is it assinine for
> them to declare residency in what is obviously their principle
> residence?

This is precisely the debate. What is a "legal residence"? It is only
temporary, after all. *Should* a transient population dictate programs
(and thus the taxes to support them) they have no reasonable expectation
of paying a dime for? The answer today is "tough, don't live in a college
town". Is that the right answer. Felg, remember, this sub-thread is
about "right", not "is". We don't have a flat tax, but I suggest that a
flat tax is "right", certainly not "is".

--
Keith
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 15, 2005 11:18:16 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

"keith" <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote in message
news:p an.2005.01.15.19.08.29.302282@att.bizzzz...
> On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 18:40:57 +0000, Felger Carbon wrote:
>
> > "keith" <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote in message
> > news:p an.2005.01.15.03.44.12.655590@att.bizzzz...
> >>
> >> Nope, not fraud. Wrong, but not fraud. They're registered
voters.
> > The
> >> courts have decided that they can declare residency in their
dorms.
> > ...as
> >> assinine as that is.
> >
> > College students are commonly 18 yrs old (or more) and hence are
> > legally adults. They typically spend 9 months a year in their
dorms
> > (more if enrolled in summer programs). Keith, why is it assinine
for
> > them to declare residency in what is obviously their principle
> > residence?
>
> This is precisely the debate. What is a "legal residence"? It is
only
> temporary, after all.

A 4-year residence (for a ~20yrold) is a *temporary* residence? Back
when I was tracking such stuff, the average California resident moved
every 3 years.

"Right"? Keith, who made you king of the world? ;-)

Seriously, I believe college students are adults and are entirely
logical to declare their long-term principal residence as their legal
residence.
January 15, 2005 11:18:17 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 20:18:16 +0000, Felger Carbon wrote:

> "keith" <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote in message
> news:p an.2005.01.15.19.08.29.302282@att.bizzzz...
>> On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 18:40:57 +0000, Felger Carbon wrote:
>>
>> > "keith" <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote in message
>> > news:p an.2005.01.15.03.44.12.655590@att.bizzzz...
>> >>
>> >> Nope, not fraud. Wrong, but not fraud. They're registered
> voters.
>> > The
>> >> courts have decided that they can declare residency in their
> dorms.
>> > ...as
>> >> assinine as that is.
>> >
>> > College students are commonly 18 yrs old (or more) and hence are
>> > legally adults. They typically spend 9 months a year in their
> dorms
>> > (more if enrolled in summer programs). Keith, why is it assinine
> for
>> > them to declare residency in what is obviously their principle
>> > residence?
>>
>> This is precisely the debate. What is a "legal residence"? It is
> only
>> temporary, after all.
>
> A 4-year residence (for a ~20yrold) is a *temporary* residence? Back
> when I was tracking such stuff, the average California resident moved
> every 3 years.

They'/re only in one "residence" nine months. Then they pick up, lock,
stock, and laptop and move on. Next year they come back for nine more.
>
> "Right"? Keith, who made you king of the world? ;-)

"Right" is obviously subjective. Who said you could trump my "right" with
your "is"? ;-)

> Seriously, I believe college students are adults and are entirely
> logical to declare their long-term principal residence as their legal
> residence.

THe issue is that it is not their residence and there are *no* taxes paid,
in most cases, not even by the landlord. If they were declared to be
residences of kingdom of the one who pays the bills (they are claimed on
their parent's taxes) things balance out. As it is, many communities are
being taxed into oblivion by transients who have nothing at stake.

--
Keith
--
Keith
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 15, 2005 11:58:09 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
> Ouch, do you have to remind me?!!

I guess denial is a useful defense mechanism :) 

> Nope, it was decided by the SCotUS back when I was in
> college. You can declare your residency wherever you
> are, and are not required to declare it where you (or your
> parents) pay taxes. If you meet the months, you're eligible
> to be a resident.

So the states just need to make it 12 consecutive months.
You're resident wherever you last lived 12 months in a row.
Some delay is good. It takes a while to settle in and
understand the local issues well enough to vote.

> Bill Clinton's polster?

I try to forget.

> Was. He's burned many sheets from the Lincoln bedroom.

Both sides?

> In some ways he's changed, some not. His insights into
> Bill and Hill are great though. He's got them pegged
> (he was their boy).

How could he not? The gauntlet we make candidates run may
not reveal their true selves to the public, but it surely
does to their staffs. He knew too much.

-- Robert
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 16, 2005 12:13:28 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

Felger Carbon <fmsfnf@jfoops.net> wrote:
> A 4-year residence (for a ~20yrold) is a *temporary*

Not if it's 4 straight years.

> residence? Back when I was tracking such stuff, the average
> California resident moved every 3 years.

Beware averages without considering the distribution.
This average is made of many renters who move every year,
and homeowners who move much less frequently (especially
penalized in California by property tax lock-in).

> Seriously, I believe college students are adults

A totally different subject! :) 

> and are entirely logical to declare their long-term
> principal residence as their legal residence.

You have a point for students living off-campus. When they
vote property taxes up, their rents will have to go up.
On campus get clouded by state colleges frequently paying no
prop tax.

-- Robert
January 16, 2005 12:47:17 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 20:58:09 +0000, Robert Redelmeier wrote:

> keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
>> Ouch, do you have to remind me?!!
>
> I guess denial is a useful defense mechanism :) 
>
>> Nope, it was decided by the SCotUS back when I was in
>> college. You can declare your residency wherever you
>> are, and are not required to declare it where you (or your
>> parents) pay taxes. If you meet the months, you're eligible
>> to be a resident.
>
> So the states just need to make it 12 consecutive months.

That disenfranchises any snow-birds.

> You're resident wherever you last lived 12 months in a row.
> Some delay is good. It takes a while to settle in and
> understand the local issues well enough to vote.

I'm not sure what the answer is here, but a kid in a dorm isn't a
"resident" of the community, AFAIC. There are exceptions to the age of
majority all the time. I was married and living on my own when I was 18,
though couldn't (legally) buy a beer. Even though we were of the age of
majority and filed taxes independantly, I wasn't eligible for any
financial aid, since I was "too young". I could have been drafted
(deferrment and huge number got me through Vietnam), but wasn't really a
major, since I didn't have all the rights of a citizen (some things never
change).

>> Bill Clinton's polster?
>
> I try to forget.

He was good (no, not Clinton!).

>> Was. He's burned many sheets from the Lincoln bedroom.
>
> Both sides?

Not sure, though he admitted to auctioning off a few. It what was done.

>> In some ways he's changed, some not. His insights into Bill and Hill
>> are great though. He's got them pegged (he was their boy).
>
> How could he not? The gauntlet we make candidates run may not reveal
> their true selves to the public, but it surely does to their staffs. He
> knew too much.

Too much? For Bill and Hill, perhaps.

--
Keith
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 16, 2005 8:18:00 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
> That disenfranchises any snow-birds.

You think they should be enfranchised?

> There are exceptions to the age of majority all the time.
> I was married and living on my own when I was 18, though
> couldn't (legally) buy a beer. Even though we were of the
> age of majority and filed taxes independantly, I wasn't
> eligible for any financial aid, since I was "too young".
> I could have been drafted (deferrment and huge number got me
> through Vietnam), but wasn't really a major, since I didn't
> have all the rights of a citizen (some things never change).

Yes, majority is a problematic issue. An infant cleraly
is incompetant (and incontent). A 30h year old is probably
competent. Where to draw the line?

THe US voting age was lowered to 18 in 1971 under the rallying
cry of "old enough to die [Vietnam draft], old enough to vote".
Oddly, this was not considered for WW2 or Korea. Of course,
it didn't hurt that young people were perceived more likely
to vote Democrat, and most of the state legislatures needed
to ratify were Democrat controlled.

If beer were important, you should've moved north to Canukistan
where the beer is drinkable and legal at 18.

> Too much? For Bill and Hill, perhaps.

Who else? They did the firing. Do you have any evidence
that they (or any other pol) consider anything other than
their narrow self-interest in deciding policy? Of course,
they explained and advocated in other terms. But did they
make any clearly contra-interest decisions?

-- Robert
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 16, 2005 11:07:59 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 14:08:30 -0500, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
>On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 18:40:57 +0000, Felger Carbon wrote:

>> College students are commonly 18 yrs old (or more) and hence are
>> legally adults. They typically spend 9 months a year in their dorms
>> (more if enrolled in summer programs). Keith, why is it assinine for
>> them to declare residency in what is obviously their principle
>> residence?

>This is precisely the debate. What is a "legal residence"? It is only
>temporary, after all.

Not so, always. I grew up in one city, went to study in another, and
and never moved back. Most study courses are long enough to engender
a vested interest in the locality, even if one eventually moves on.



>---------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
Cats have 9 lives, which makes them
ideal for experimentation!
>---------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
!