Dell sued over bait & switch advertising

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

Dell sued over bait-and-switch charges | CNET News.com
http://news.com.com/Dell+sued+over+bait-and-switch+charges/2100-1047_3-5587443.html?tag=st.pop

Yousuf Khan
60 answers Last reply
More about dell sued bait switch advertising
  1. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    On 24 Feb 2005 07:04:43 -0800, "YKhan" <yjkhan@gmail.com> wrote:

    >Dell sued over bait-and-switch charges | CNET News.com
    >http://news.com.com/Dell+sued+over+bait-and-switch+charges/2100-1047_3-5587443.html?tag=st.pop
    >
    > Yousuf Khan

    Martha Stewart out, Michael Dell in. ;-).

    RM
  2. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    Robert Myers wrote:
    > On 24 Feb 2005 07:04:43 -0800, "YKhan" <yjkhan@gmail.com> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Dell sued over bait-and-switch charges | CNET News.com
    >>http://news.com.com/Dell+sued+over+bait-and-switch+charges/2100-1047_3-5587443.html?tag=st.pop
    >>
    >> Yousuf Khan
    >
    >
    > Martha Stewart out, Michael Dell in. ;-).

    But can he turn an 8 by 12 jailcell into an ergonomic and aesthetic
    tour-de-force? :-)

    Yousuf Khan
  3. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:53:43 -0500, Robert Myers wrote:

    > On 24 Feb 2005 07:04:43 -0800, "YKhan" <yjkhan@gmail.com> wrote:
    >
    >>Dell sued over bait-and-switch charges | CNET News.com
    >>http://news.com.com/Dell+sued+over+bait-and-switch+charges/2100-1047_3-5587443.html?tag=st.pop
    >>
    >> Yousuf Khan
    >
    > Martha Stewart out, Michael Dell in. ;-).
    >
    > RM

    OK let me get this straight, out is good, in is bad!

    Last I heard Martha hired a personal chef to cook for her when she gets
    out, how would you like that job! Now thats a good thing! rofl.
    http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlfeed.nsf/mndwebpages/stewart%20lines%20up%20top%20chef

    What ever happened to the saying, in like Flint!

    I was surprised that this did not happen sooner, I also wonder how long
    the product life for parts is at Dell. I mean can you still get parts for
    certain models over three years old. I bet a lot of businesses are having
    problems, regret their purchase.

    When I am near my local University, I sometimes walk through their
    computer centers, and I see lots of systems down for repairs, most are
    Dells. I bet they do not like the techs/students lab assistants, to dig
    into their machines,due to contract issues, other such stuff. Does Dell
    still use their own funky, power supply that only work with their
    hardware. I know at one time people were trying to take motherboards out
    of Dells use them in their own system, but could not due to power supply
    wiring issues.

    Gnu_Raiz
  4. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 00:38:21 -0600, Gnu_Raiz
    <Gnu_Raiz@uptime.notlost.net> wrote:

    > I know at one time people were trying to take motherboards out
    >of Dells use them in their own system, but could not due to power supply
    >wiring issues.

    Some stores sell adapters that get around that issue.
  5. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 00:38:21 -0600, Gnu_Raiz
    <Gnu_Raiz@uptime.notlost.net> wrote:

    >On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:53:43 -0500, Robert Myers wrote:
    >
    >> On 24 Feb 2005 07:04:43 -0800, "YKhan" <yjkhan@gmail.com> wrote:
    >>
    >>>Dell sued over bait-and-switch charges | CNET News.com
    >>>http://news.com.com/Dell+sued+over+bait-and-switch+charges/2100-1047_3-5587443.html?tag=st.pop
    >>>
    >>> Yousuf Khan
    >>
    >> Martha Stewart out, Michael Dell in. ;-).
    >>
    >> RM
    >
    >OK let me get this straight, out is good, in is bad!
    >
    >Last I heard Martha hired a personal chef to cook for her when she gets
    >out, how would you like that job! Now thats a good thing! rofl.
    >http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlfeed.nsf/mndwebpages/stewart%20lines%20up%20top%20chef
    >
    >What ever happened to the saying, in like Flint!
    >
    >I was surprised that this did not happen sooner, I also wonder how long
    >the product life for parts is at Dell. I mean can you still get parts for
    >certain models over three years old. I bet a lot of businesses are having
    >problems, regret their purchase.

    The problem is that the only real alternative for large business is
    HPaq, and it's not like that's an improvement! I'm actually surprised
    that it's JUST Dell that they're going after, since HP and Dell are
    kinda reminiscent of the US government system of two parties that are
    really just the same thing :>

    >When I am near my local University, I sometimes walk through their
    >computer centers, and I see lots of systems down for repairs, most are
    >Dells. I bet they do not like the techs/students lab assistants, to dig
    >into their machines,due to contract issues, other such stuff. Does Dell
    >still use their own funky, power supply that only work with their
    >hardware. I know at one time people were trying to take motherboards out
    >of Dells use them in their own system, but could not due to power supply
    >wiring issues.

    Funky power supplies are pretty much the norm for big OEMs, the trick
    with Dells is that they were physically identical to standard ATX
    supplies but where electrically different. Made it just too tempting
    for people to try swapping out the board or power supply with a
    standard one that just wouldn't work. With HPaq supplies, for
    example, they are still non-standard, but at least you KNOW that they
    are non-standard since they won't fit into an ATX connector without
    the use of a decently large hammer.

    -------------
    Tony Hill
    hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca
  6. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 03:42:01 -0500, Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca>
    wrote:

    >On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 00:38:21 -0600, Gnu_Raiz
    ><Gnu_Raiz@uptime.notlost.net> wrote:
    >
    >>On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:53:43 -0500, Robert Myers wrote:
    >>
    >>> On 24 Feb 2005 07:04:43 -0800, "YKhan" <yjkhan@gmail.com> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>Dell sued over bait-and-switch charges | CNET News.com
    >>>>http://news.com.com/Dell+sued+over+bait-and-switch+charges/2100-1047_3-5587443.html?tag=st.pop
    >>>>
    >>>> Yousuf Khan
    >>>
    >>> Martha Stewart out, Michael Dell in. ;-).
    >>>
    >>> RM
    >>
    >>OK let me get this straight, out is good, in is bad!
    >>
    >>Last I heard Martha hired a personal chef to cook for her when she gets
    >>out, how would you like that job! Now thats a good thing! rofl.
    >>http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlfeed.nsf/mndwebpages/stewart%20lines%20up%20top%20chef
    >>
    >>What ever happened to the saying, in like Flint!
    >>
    >>I was surprised that this did not happen sooner, I also wonder how long
    >>the product life for parts is at Dell. I mean can you still get parts for
    >>certain models over three years old. I bet a lot of businesses are having
    >>problems, regret their purchase.
    >
    >The problem is that the only real alternative for large business is
    >HPaq, and it's not like that's an improvement! I'm actually surprised
    >that it's JUST Dell that they're going after, since HP and Dell are
    >kinda reminiscent of the US government system of two parties that are
    >really just the same thing :>
    >
    >>When I am near my local University, I sometimes walk through their
    >>computer centers, and I see lots of systems down for repairs, most are
    >>Dells. I bet they do not like the techs/students lab assistants, to dig
    >>into their machines,due to contract issues, other such stuff. Does Dell
    >>still use their own funky, power supply that only work with their
    >>hardware. I know at one time people were trying to take motherboards out
    >>of Dells use them in their own system, but could not due to power supply
    >>wiring issues.
    >
    >Funky power supplies are pretty much the norm for big OEMs, the trick
    >with Dells is that they were physically identical to standard ATX
    >supplies but where electrically different. Made it just too tempting
    >for people to try swapping out the board or power supply with a
    >standard one that just wouldn't work. With HPaq supplies, for
    >example, they are still non-standard, but at least you KNOW that they
    >are non-standard since they won't fit into an ATX connector without
    >the use of a decently large hammer.

    So the HPaq connector has different keying for the connector? Is this
    something that HP learned from Compaq? I remember the old proprietary
    keyboard conectors that Compaq used to have - what a rip-off. All the same
    I'd have thought both Dell and HPaq would have the same wires with the same
    power and ground connections... just in a different order. In that case a
    Molex pin extractor, and a used standard connector for the case of HPaq,
    would be all you'd need to rearrange things to the standard order.

    --
    Rgds, George Macdonald
  7. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    >>>>> "YKhan" == YKhan <yjkhan@gmail.com> writes:

    YKhan> Dell sued over bait-and-switch charges | CNET News.com
    YKhan> http://news.com.com/Dell+sued+over+bait-and-switch+charges/2100-1047_3-5587443.html?tag=st.pop

    YKhan> Yousuf Khan


    It was about time. My friend's son worked for dell in sales, and to
    say the least dell has some very interesting sales techniques. I'm
    sure other companies use them, but dell is very good at sales.

    It still amazes me though that some folks believe everything sales
    agent says ;-)). When they find out that have been taken for a ride,
    they sue like hell ;-)).

    I guess the next suite will be intel for hot chips!

    Whatever.
  8. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    "Robert Myers" <rmyers1400@comcast.net> wrote in message
    news:smts11hopm8ddsjeh33ub6hpvf10okuelt@4ax.com...
    > On 24 Feb 2005 07:04:43 -0800, "YKhan" <yjkhan@gmail.com> wrote:
    >
    > >Dell sued over bait-and-switch charges | CNET News.com
    >
    >http://news.com.com/Dell+sued+over+bait-and-switch+charges/2100-1047_
    3-5587443.html?tag=st.pop
    > >
    > > Yousuf Khan
    >
    > Martha Stewart out, Michael Dell in. ;-).

    There are criminal trials (such as the one Martha lost), and there are
    civil suits (such as the one against Dell the company, not Mike the
    chairman). Nobody goes to jail for losing a civil suit. Especially
    if the losing party is a company. ;-)
  9. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    "Tony Hill" <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
    news:camt11l4828sudqbm96a5jgud12q7flgpb@4ax.com...
    >
    > >I was surprised that this did not happen sooner, I also wonder how
    long
    > >the product life for parts is at Dell. I mean can you still get
    parts for
    > >certain models over three years old. I bet a lot of businesses are
    having
    > >problems, regret their purchase.
    >
    > The problem is that the only real alternative for large business is
    > HPaq, and it's not like that's an improvement! I'm actually
    surprised
    > that it's JUST Dell that they're going after, since HP and Dell are
    > kinda reminiscent of the US government system of two parties that
    are
    > really just the same thing :>

    The Apple computer company is being sued in civil court (in the UK?)
    for selling used parts and computers as new parts and computers. It
    would appear the problem is endemic in the computer industry. If the
    box has been opened, is the part/computer used??
  10. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 10:44:57 GMT, "Felger Carbon" <fmsfnf@jfoops.net>
    wrote:

    >"Robert Myers" <rmyers1400@comcast.net> wrote in message
    >news:smts11hopm8ddsjeh33ub6hpvf10okuelt@4ax.com...
    >> On 24 Feb 2005 07:04:43 -0800, "YKhan" <yjkhan@gmail.com> wrote:
    >>
    >> >Dell sued over bait-and-switch charges | CNET News.com
    >>
    >>http://news.com.com/Dell+sued+over+bait-and-switch+charges/2100-1047_
    >3-5587443.html?tag=st.pop
    >> >
    >> > Yousuf Khan
    >>
    >> Martha Stewart out, Michael Dell in. ;-).
    >
    >There are criminal trials (such as the one Martha lost), and there are
    >civil suits (such as the one against Dell the company, not Mike the
    >chairman). Nobody goes to jail for losing a civil suit. Especially
    >if the losing party is a company. ;-)
    >

    I hope you aren't so precise when someone tells a joke at a party,
    Felger.

    In any case, I'm beginning to wonder if you and that outlaw Michael
    Dell don't belong to the same club. ;-).

    RM
  11. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 10:44:58 +0000, Felger Carbon wrote:

    > "Tony Hill" <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
    > news:camt11l4828sudqbm96a5jgud12q7flgpb@4ax.com...
    >>
    >> >I was surprised that this did not happen sooner, I also wonder how
    > long
    >> >the product life for parts is at Dell. I mean can you still get
    > parts for
    >> >certain models over three years old. I bet a lot of businesses are
    > having
    >> >problems, regret their purchase.
    >>
    >> The problem is that the only real alternative for large business is
    >> HPaq, and it's not like that's an improvement! I'm actually
    > surprised
    >> that it's JUST Dell that they're going after, since HP and Dell are
    >> kinda reminiscent of the US government system of two parties that
    > are
    >> really just the same thing :>
    >
    > The Apple computer company is being sued in civil court (in the UK?)
    > for selling used parts and computers as new parts and computers. It
    > would appear the problem is endemic in the computer industry. If the
    > box has been opened, is the part/computer used??

    There is usually a sticker on the system or disclaimer somewhere in the
    documentation something on the order of "all components in this ______ are
    new or equialent to new" to get around this "problem". I've seen these
    "warnings" in automobiles, even. This isn't something strange amH,vil.
    ....well perhaps a little bad. ;-)

    --
    Keith
  12. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 19:07:55 -0500, Robert Myers wrote:

    > On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 10:44:57 GMT, "Felger Carbon" <fmsfnf@jfoops.net>
    > wrote:
    >
    >>"Robert Myers" <rmyers1400@comcast.net> wrote in message
    >>news:smts11hopm8ddsjeh33ub6hpvf10okuelt@4ax.com...
    >>> On 24 Feb 2005 07:04:43 -0800, "YKhan" <yjkhan@gmail.com> wrote:
    >>>
    >>> >Dell sued over bait-and-switch charges | CNET News.com
    >>>
    >>>http://news.com.com/Dell+sued+over+bait-and-switch+charges/2100-1047_
    >>3-5587443.html?tag=st.pop
    >>> >
    >>> > Yousuf Khan
    >>>
    >>> Martha Stewart out, Michael Dell in. ;-).
    >>
    >>There are criminal trials (such as the one Martha lost), and there are
    >>civil suits (such as the one against Dell the company, not Mike the
    >>chairman). Nobody goes to jail for losing a civil suit. Especially
    >>if the losing party is a company. ;-)
    >>
    >
    > I hope you aren't so precise when someone tells a joke at a party,
    > Felger.
    >
    > In any case, I'm beginning to wonder if you and that outlaw Michael
    > Dell don't belong to the same club. ;-).

    Nah, Felger isn't Mike's type. Martha on the other hand...

    --
    Keith
  13. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    > Gnu_Raiz <Gnu_Raiz@uptime.notlost.net> wrote:

    > What ever happened to the saying, in like Flint!

    Actually, "In Like Flint" was a movie title, and
    was a play on words from the real cliche, which was
    "In like Flynn", referring to actor Eroll Flynn,
    who had a bit of a reputation with the ladies, and
    later managed to avoid successful prosecution for
    events involving an underaged lass and his yatch.

    Apparently the expression meant "sure to get lucky"
    prior to the prosecution, and morphed to "and you'll
    get away with it, even if illegal" afterwards.
    Any number of web sites have more detail.

    None of which has anything to do with Dell, which
    is not a brand I buy or endorse when asked.

    --
    Regards, Bob Niland mailto:name@ispname.tld
    http://www.access-one.com/rjn email4rjn AT yahoo DOT com
    NOT speaking for any employer, client or Internet Service Provider.
  14. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 05:26:16 -0500, George Macdonald
    <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:

    >On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 03:42:01 -0500, Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>Funky power supplies are pretty much the norm for big OEMs, the trick
    >>with Dells is that they were physically identical to standard ATX
    >>supplies but where electrically different. Made it just too tempting
    >>for people to try swapping out the board or power supply with a
    >>standard one that just wouldn't work. With HPaq supplies, for
    >>example, they are still non-standard, but at least you KNOW that they
    >>are non-standard since they won't fit into an ATX connector without
    >>the use of a decently large hammer.
    >
    >So the HPaq connector has different keying for the connector? Is this
    >something that HP learned from Compaq? I remember the old proprietary
    >keyboard conectors that Compaq used to have - what a rip-off.

    Proprietary keyboard connector?! The only place I've ever seen one of
    those was a Packard Hell, where it has a special keyboard + mouse +
    speaker/mic connector all in one. All the Compaq and HP machines I've
    come across use plain old PS/2 (or sometimes USB) keyboards and mice.
    Mind you, I pretty much only deal with their commercial line, so I
    don't know what the deal is with the Presario systems.

    > All the same
    >I'd have thought both Dell and HPaq would have the same wires with the same
    >power and ground connections... just in a different order. In that case a
    >Molex pin extractor, and a used standard connector for the case of HPaq,
    >would be all you'd need to rearrange things to the standard order.

    Of the HPaq commercial machines that I see (which is a direct
    descendant of the old Compaq Deskpro/Evo line), they use all pretty
    standard connectors except for the power connector. These are
    definitely non-standard. Actually the new ones use one non-standard
    connector for the main power but use the standard 4-pin secondary
    ATX12V connector (or at least I think it's standard, though I haven't
    checked the pin-out). It's not really such a big deal for these
    systems though since they're mostly small form factor systems where
    any other power supply just wouldn't physically fit in the case. In
    the case of the few minitowers we've got, they normally use the exact
    same motherboard as their corresponding SFF system, so they're kind of
    stuck with the non-standard power connector.

    A slightly more annoying problem with these machines is that a
    standard floppy drive usually will not work. Fortunately floppies are
    rarely used these days, but when they are needed, it's a bit of a PITA
    to have to get a specific HPaq (or Dell) part at the rather exorbitant
    prices they charge (~$40 US as I recall?)

    -------------
    Tony Hill
    hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca
  15. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    >>>>> "Hank" == Hank Oredson <horedson@earthlink.net> writes:

    Hank> "Bob Niland" <email4rjn@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    Hank> news:opsmtgbqy0ft8z8r@news.individual.net...
    >>> Gnu_Raiz <Gnu_Raiz@uptime.notlost.net> wrote:
    >>
    >>> What ever happened to the saying, in like Flint!
    >> Actually, "In Like Flint" was a movie title, and was a play on
    >> words from the real cliche, which was "In like Flynn", referring
    >> to actor Eroll Flynn, who had a bit of a reputation with the
    >> ladies, and later managed to avoid successful prosecution for
    >> events involving an underaged lass and his yatch.
    >>
    >> Apparently the expression meant "sure to get lucky" prior to the
    >> prosecution, and morphed to "and you'll get away with it, even if
    >> illegal" afterwards. Any number of web sites have more detail.
    >>
    >> None of which has anything to do with Dell, which is not a brand I
    >> buy or endorse when asked.


    Hank> What brand would you endorse?

    Hank> Serious question, about to upgrade and will either build my
    Hank> own, or buy a Dell or PowerSpec.

    Hank> Have three Dells in the house (plus 4 other systems). Dells
    Hank> have been problem-free.

    I recently purchased a dell and was very happy. If you know how to
    deal with sales people dell will be fine. I actually ordered from the
    net and purchased an excellent server that was loaded for 424 bucks
    with tax. Unreal deal.

    Good luck
  16. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    "Bob Niland" <email4rjn@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:opsmtgbqy0ft8z8r@news.individual.net...
    >> Gnu_Raiz <Gnu_Raiz@uptime.notlost.net> wrote:
    >
    >> What ever happened to the saying, in like Flint!
    >
    > Actually, "In Like Flint" was a movie title, and
    > was a play on words from the real cliche, which was
    > "In like Flynn", referring to actor Eroll Flynn,
    > who had a bit of a reputation with the ladies, and
    > later managed to avoid successful prosecution for
    > events involving an underaged lass and his yatch.
    >
    > Apparently the expression meant "sure to get lucky"
    > prior to the prosecution, and morphed to "and you'll
    > get away with it, even if illegal" afterwards.
    > Any number of web sites have more detail.
    >
    > None of which has anything to do with Dell, which
    > is not a brand I buy or endorse when asked.


    What brand would you endorse?

    Serious question, about to upgrade and will either
    build my own, or buy a Dell or PowerSpec.

    Have three Dells in the house (plus 4 other systems).
    Dells have been problem-free.

    --

    ... Hank

    http://home.earthlink.net/~horedson
    http://home.earthlink.net/~w0rli
  17. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    >> None of which has anything to do with Dell, which
    >> is not a brand I buy or endorse when asked.

    > Hank Oredson <horedson@earthlink.net> wrote:
    > What brand would you endorse?

    It entirely depends on your intended uses. For
    my own work (2D-intensive), I build my own. For
    neighbors with generic requirements, the MicroTels
    that Wal-Mart sells (web only), are perfectly
    adequate inexpensive platforms, and are supportable,
    as they have both Windows and Linux drivers.

    > Have three Dells in the house (plus 4 other systems).
    > Dells have been problem-free.

    The question is - when you have a problem, just
    how big a problem do you have? One of the things
    that has put me off Dell is their periodic forays
    into needless proprietary stuff, including motherboard
    power connectors.

    --
    Regards, Bob Niland mailto:name@ispname.tld
    http://www.access-one.com/rjn email4rjn AT yahoo DOT com
    NOT speaking for any employer, client or Internet Service Provider.
  18. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 05:37:46 +0000, Hank Oredson wrote:

    > "Bob Niland" <email4rjn@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    > news:opsmtgbqy0ft8z8r@news.individual.net...
    >>> Gnu_Raiz <Gnu_Raiz@uptime.notlost.net> wrote:
    >>
    >>> What ever happened to the saying, in like Flint!
    >>
    >> Actually, "In Like Flint" was a movie title, and
    >> was a play on words from the real cliche, which was
    >> "In like Flynn", referring to actor Eroll Flynn,
    >> who had a bit of a reputation with the ladies, and
    >> later managed to avoid successful prosecution for
    >> events involving an underaged lass and his yatch.
    >>
    >> Apparently the expression meant "sure to get lucky"
    >> prior to the prosecution, and morphed to "and you'll
    >> get away with it, even if illegal" afterwards.
    >> Any number of web sites have more detail.
    >>
    >> None of which has anything to do with Dell, which
    >> is not a brand I buy or endorse when asked.
    >
    >
    > What brand would you endorse?

    KeithKit

    > Serious question, about to upgrade and will either
    > build my own, or buy a Dell or PowerSpec.

    If you're up to it (it's not hard), build your own. No question!

    > Have three Dells in the house (plus 4 other systems).
    > Dells have been problem-free.

    So you've never had to replace parts or get service?

    --
    Keith
  19. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    >>>>> "Bob" == Bob Niland <email4rjn@yahoo.com> writes:

    >>> None of which has anything to do with Dell, which is not a brand
    >>> I buy or endorse when asked.

    >> Hank Oredson <horedson@earthlink.net> wrote: What brand would you
    >> endorse?

    Bob> It entirely depends on your intended uses. For my own work
    Bob> (2D-intensive), I build my own. For neighbors with generic
    Bob> requirements, the MicroTels that Wal-Mart sells (web only), are
    Bob> perfectly adequate inexpensive platforms, and are supportable,
    Bob> as they have both Windows and Linux drivers.

    >> Have three Dells in the house (plus 4 other systems). Dells have
    >> been problem-free.

    Bob> The question is - when you have a problem, just how big a
    Bob> problem do you have? One of the things that has put me off Dell
    Bob> is their periodic forays into needless proprietary stuff,
    Bob> including motherboard power connectors.

    I did not mention that in my last post, but you have an excellent
    point. When you purchase a Dell, HP, or some other system you better
    be ready to throw it away when it breaks. I purchased a dell during an
    excellent special, and will use for a special purchase. However, I do
    realize if it breaks after warranty I will probably have to throw it
    away. The dell I purchased definitely had some no standard parts.

    For desktop computer I build my own, which is pretty easy, and get to
    select your parts. Probably costs a little more, but if it breaks you
    can fix it easily.

    Later,

    Alan
  20. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 16:27:28 -0500, Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca>
    wrote:

    >On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 05:26:16 -0500, George Macdonald
    ><fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:
    >
    >>On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 03:42:01 -0500, Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca>
    >>wrote:
    >>
    >>>Funky power supplies are pretty much the norm for big OEMs, the trick
    >>>with Dells is that they were physically identical to standard ATX
    >>>supplies but where electrically different. Made it just too tempting
    >>>for people to try swapping out the board or power supply with a
    >>>standard one that just wouldn't work. With HPaq supplies, for
    >>>example, they are still non-standard, but at least you KNOW that they
    >>>are non-standard since they won't fit into an ATX connector without
    >>>the use of a decently large hammer.
    >>
    >>So the HPaq connector has different keying for the connector? Is this
    >>something that HP learned from Compaq? I remember the old proprietary
    >>keyboard conectors that Compaq used to have - what a rip-off.
    >
    >Proprietary keyboard connector?! The only place I've ever seen one of
    >those was a Packard Hell, where it has a special keyboard + mouse +
    >speaker/mic connector all in one. All the Compaq and HP machines I've
    >come across use plain old PS/2 (or sometimes USB) keyboards and mice.
    >Mind you, I pretty much only deal with their commercial line, so I
    >don't know what the deal is with the Presario systems.

    Oops I just dated myself.... AGAIN! Way back, Compaq had a proprietary
    keyboard connector - nothing else fit and there was no adapter - maybe
    thats why people bought more than one??:-) I recall a Wyse 386 system we
    got had a RJ-11 for the keyboard connector, just like their TTYs, but at
    least they supplied an adapter with the system.

    >> All the same
    >>I'd have thought both Dell and HPaq would have the same wires with the same
    >>power and ground connections... just in a different order. In that case a
    >>Molex pin extractor, and a used standard connector for the case of HPaq,
    >>would be all you'd need to rearrange things to the standard order.
    >
    >Of the HPaq commercial machines that I see (which is a direct
    >descendant of the old Compaq Deskpro/Evo line), they use all pretty
    >standard connectors except for the power connector. These are
    >definitely non-standard. Actually the new ones use one non-standard
    >connector for the main power but use the standard 4-pin secondary
    >ATX12V connector (or at least I think it's standard, though I haven't
    >checked the pin-out). It's not really such a big deal for these
    >systems though since they're mostly small form factor systems where
    >any other power supply just wouldn't physically fit in the case. In
    >the case of the few minitowers we've got, they normally use the exact
    >same motherboard as their corresponding SFF system, so they're kind of
    >stuck with the non-standard power connector.
    >
    >A slightly more annoying problem with these machines is that a
    >standard floppy drive usually will not work. Fortunately floppies are
    >rarely used these days, but when they are needed, it's a bit of a PITA
    >to have to get a specific HPaq (or Dell) part at the rather exorbitant
    >prices they charge (~$40 US as I recall?)

    So much for "industry standards" - makes DIY even more attractive.

    --
    Rgds, George Macdonald
  21. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 19:47:12 -0500, George Macdonald
    <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:

    >On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 16:27:28 -0500, Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>Proprietary keyboard connector?! The only place I've ever seen one of
    >>those was a Packard Hell, where it has a special keyboard + mouse +
    >>speaker/mic connector all in one. All the Compaq and HP machines I've
    >>come across use plain old PS/2 (or sometimes USB) keyboards and mice.
    >>Mind you, I pretty much only deal with their commercial line, so I
    >>don't know what the deal is with the Presario systems.
    >
    >Oops I just dated myself.... AGAIN! Way back, Compaq had a proprietary
    >keyboard connector - nothing else fit and there was no adapter - maybe
    >thats why people bought more than one??:-) I recall a Wyse 386 system we
    >got had a RJ-11 for the keyboard connector, just like their TTYs, but at
    >least they supplied an adapter with the system.

    In mentioning a Wyse computer I think you are REALLY dating yourself
    there George! :>

    Now that you mention it though, I do remember seeing some odd-ball
    connectors for keyboards on a variety of computers way back in the day
    (286 and 386 era mainly). Never much dealt with any of those though,
    mainly since I was still in grade school at the time!

    >>A slightly more annoying problem with these machines is that a
    >>standard floppy drive usually will not work. Fortunately floppies are
    >>rarely used these days, but when they are needed, it's a bit of a PITA
    >>to have to get a specific HPaq (or Dell) part at the rather exorbitant
    >>prices they charge (~$40 US as I recall?)
    >
    >So much for "industry standards" - makes DIY even more attractive.

    Yup, I wouldn't think of getting an HPaq or a Dell for home use.
    However for business systems where you need to support anything more
    than about 10 machines they start to become REAL attractive. Having a
    single source for all your driver downloads, being able to use the
    same basic procedure for setting up and supporting your systems can
    really help. Not to mention the fact that you can get all your
    replacement parts sent overnight when one goes bad.

    -------------
    Tony Hill
    hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca
  22. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    "keith" <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote in message
    news:pan.2005.02.27.16.17.34.729801@att.bizzzz...
    > On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 05:37:46 +0000, Hank Oredson wrote:
    >
    >> "Bob Niland" <email4rjn@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    >> news:opsmtgbqy0ft8z8r@news.individual.net...
    >>>> Gnu_Raiz <Gnu_Raiz@uptime.notlost.net> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> What ever happened to the saying, in like Flint!
    >>>
    >>> Actually, "In Like Flint" was a movie title, and
    >>> was a play on words from the real cliche, which was
    >>> "In like Flynn", referring to actor Eroll Flynn,
    >>> who had a bit of a reputation with the ladies, and
    >>> later managed to avoid successful prosecution for
    >>> events involving an underaged lass and his yatch.
    >>>
    >>> Apparently the expression meant "sure to get lucky"
    >>> prior to the prosecution, and morphed to "and you'll
    >>> get away with it, even if illegal" afterwards.
    >>> Any number of web sites have more detail.
    >>>
    >>> None of which has anything to do with Dell, which
    >>> is not a brand I buy or endorse when asked.
    >>
    >>
    >> What brand would you endorse?
    >
    > KeithKit

    There are 4 or 5 HankKits made from recycled free
    machines sitting in the next room :-)

    >> Serious question, about to upgrade and will either
    >> build my own, or buy a Dell or PowerSpec.
    >
    > If you're up to it (it's not hard), build your own. No question!

    Have built dozens.

    Usually spend too much time and money doing so, compared
    to a high end Dell or PowerSpec. Might do it again, since right
    now Dell doesn't have what I want. The high end PowerSpec
    is close, and priced just a tad under what I could do by building
    one myself. Their service is good, couple of my relatives (including
    my 90 year old mother) have them and are very pleased.

    >> Have three Dells in the house (plus 4 other systems).
    >> Dells have been problem-free.
    >
    > So you've never had to replace parts or get service?

    Don't recall every needing to call their support staff, the machines
    "just work". All are XPS systems, newest is an 8200. It's my old
    T550 that needs replacement (grin).

    Have replaced lots of parts in the Dells, always by choice.
    Better vid, bigger disk, more ram, etc. Did lose one hard
    drive and had to replace it, no big deal.

    So I was just curious which brand of already built plug it
    in it works machine you might endorse.

    --

    ... Hank

    http://home.earthlink.net/~horedson
    http://home.earthlink.net/~w0rli
  23. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 03:59:49 GMT, "Hank Oredson"
    <horedson@earthlink.net> wrote:
    >Don't recall every needing to call their support staff, the machines
    >"just work". All are XPS systems, newest is an 8200. It's my old
    >T550 that needs replacement (grin).
    >
    >Have replaced lots of parts in the Dells, always by choice.
    >Better vid, bigger disk, more ram, etc. Did lose one hard
    >drive and had to replace it, no big deal.
    >
    >So I was just curious which brand of already built plug it
    >in it works machine you might endorse.

    If I had to chose one of the big OEMs for a home system, it would
    probably be a Dell... or an Apple, but I guess they don't really
    count.

    Dell is at least as good as anyone else in the tier-one OEM market,
    though when "anyone else" is HPaq, that isn't exactly a glowing
    endorsement. You can usually find Dell systems for fairly decent
    prices.

    If you're willing to pay extra than you can find some good quality
    systems from some more niche-market builders. Alienware is one that I
    know of who at least use high quality components (I don't have any
    personal experience with them, so I can't say much else about them).
    Might be worth checking out their site.

    -------------
    Tony Hill
    hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca
  24. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    "Bob Niland" <email4rjn@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:opsmu75kmvft8z8r@news.individual.net...
    >>> None of which has anything to do with Dell, which
    >>> is not a brand I buy or endorse when asked.
    >
    >> Hank Oredson <horedson@earthlink.net> wrote:
    >> What brand would you endorse?
    >
    > It entirely depends on your intended uses. For
    > my own work (2D-intensive), I build my own. For
    > neighbors with generic requirements, the MicroTels
    > that Wal-Mart sells (web only), are perfectly
    > adequate inexpensive platforms, and are supportable,
    > as they have both Windows and Linux drivers.
    >
    >> Have three Dells in the house (plus 4 other systems).
    >> Dells have been problem-free.
    >
    > The question is - when you have a problem, just
    > how big a problem do you have? One of the things
    > that has put me off Dell is their periodic forays
    > into needless proprietary stuff, including motherboard
    > power connectors.


    Have not lost MB or PS on a Dell yet, and I'm pretty
    sure they stopped that non-standard PS nonesense

    I'm looking for something more high end, won't find one
    at Wal-Mart. No problem building my own, have built
    dozens over the years, was just curious if there were
    some particular brands folks liked.

    --

    ... Hank

    http://home.earthlink.net/~horedson
    http://home.earthlink.net/~w0rli
  25. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 04:03:27 GMT, "Hank Oredson" <horedson@earthlink.net>
    wrote:

    >"Bob Niland" <email4rjn@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    >news:opsmu75kmvft8z8r@news.individual.net...
    >>>> None of which has anything to do with Dell, which
    >>>> is not a brand I buy or endorse when asked.
    >>
    >>> Hank Oredson <horedson@earthlink.net> wrote:
    >>> What brand would you endorse?
    >>
    >> It entirely depends on your intended uses. For
    >> my own work (2D-intensive), I build my own. For
    >> neighbors with generic requirements, the MicroTels
    >> that Wal-Mart sells (web only), are perfectly
    >> adequate inexpensive platforms, and are supportable,
    >> as they have both Windows and Linux drivers.
    >>
    >>> Have three Dells in the house (plus 4 other systems).
    >>> Dells have been problem-free.
    >>
    >> The question is - when you have a problem, just
    >> how big a problem do you have? One of the things
    >> that has put me off Dell is their periodic forays
    >> into needless proprietary stuff, including motherboard
    >> power connectors.
    >
    >
    >Have not lost MB or PS on a Dell yet, and I'm pretty
    >sure they stopped that non-standard PS nonesense

    According to what we hear in c.s.i.p.h.c they are still doing it. As for
    the "lost" part, the devil is not in the replacing - diagnosing & finding
    it is the real rub; having a standard part which can be swapped in is umm,
    nice. Do you really want some screwdriver jockey from a 3rd party
    maintenance op. monkeying with your system and all its valuable data?

    >I'm looking for something more high end, won't find one
    >at Wal-Mart. No problem building my own, have built
    >dozens over the years, was just curious if there were
    >some particular brands folks liked.

    I advise people to go to a local system builder but they buy Dells
    anyway.<shrug> The only thing I can think is that deciding which
    components they want/need is too much work.

    --
    Rgds, George Macdonald
  26. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    Tony Hill wrote:

    >Dell is at least as good as anyone else in the tier-one OEM market,
    >though when "anyone else" is HPaq, that isn't exactly a glowing
    >endorsement. You can usually find Dell systems for fairly decent
    >prices.

    I buy/make a lot of PC's for my job. They are put to fairly heavy use
    in a wide variety of tasks (not normal desktop use). I've always
    spec'ed generic machines and we built them up ourselves. A few months
    ago I needed some XP machines fast, so I ordered a few Dell's.

    At first, they seemed okay, and I started thinking "maybe I'll buy
    more of these pre-built things and save myself some work". However,
    after a few months they started to screw-up, becoming less stable,
    needing reboots, re-installs, etc. The hardware is a cut below the
    generic stuff I buy as well (e.g. Antec cases, Intel-brand 845- and
    865-based motherboards).

    Needless to say, I'm not planning on any more Dell's in the near
    future... It's reinforced my long-held belief that the best PC is one
    you make yourself.
  27. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    "George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote in message
    news:66k5219u9uia3v4s0dho3f2nmg30cr9puo@4ax.com...

    > I advise people to go to a local system builder but they buy Dells
    > anyway.<shrug> The only thing I can think is that deciding which
    > components they want/need is too much work.

    I strongly urge people to avoid local system builders (unless they have
    solid recommendations or they are qualified to evaluate the system builder).
    I have heard too many stories and had too many experiences with incompetent
    installation, rushed installation, incompatible parts, substandard parts,
    overpricing, bait and switch, and so on.

    DS
  28. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 02:15:09 -0500, Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca>
    wrote:

    >On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 19:47:12 -0500, George Macdonald
    ><fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:
    >
    >>On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 16:27:28 -0500, Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca>
    >>wrote:
    >>
    >>>Proprietary keyboard connector?! The only place I've ever seen one of
    >>>those was a Packard Hell, where it has a special keyboard + mouse +
    >>>speaker/mic connector all in one. All the Compaq and HP machines I've
    >>>come across use plain old PS/2 (or sometimes USB) keyboards and mice.
    >>>Mind you, I pretty much only deal with their commercial line, so I
    >>>don't know what the deal is with the Presario systems.
    >>
    >>Oops I just dated myself.... AGAIN! Way back, Compaq had a proprietary
    >>keyboard connector - nothing else fit and there was no adapter - maybe
    >>thats why people bought more than one??:-) I recall a Wyse 386 system we
    >>got had a RJ-11 for the keyboard connector, just like their TTYs, but at
    >>least they supplied an adapter with the system.
    >
    >In mentioning a Wyse computer I think you are REALLY dating yourself
    >there George! :>

    Harrumph - just you wait an' see: 20 years will snap by without you even
    noticing. At least Wyse is still in business, though I've no idea when
    they made their last PC - ours was a 386/16... with a 1MB full length
    memory upgrade card.:-)

    >Now that you mention it though, I do remember seeing some odd-ball
    >connectors for keyboards on a variety of computers way back in the day
    >(286 and 386 era mainly). Never much dealt with any of those though,
    >mainly since I was still in grade school at the time!
    >
    >>>A slightly more annoying problem with these machines is that a
    >>>standard floppy drive usually will not work. Fortunately floppies are
    >>>rarely used these days, but when they are needed, it's a bit of a PITA
    >>>to have to get a specific HPaq (or Dell) part at the rather exorbitant
    >>>prices they charge (~$40 US as I recall?)
    >>
    >>So much for "industry standards" - makes DIY even more attractive.
    >
    >Yup, I wouldn't think of getting an HPaq or a Dell for home use.
    >However for business systems where you need to support anything more
    >than about 10 machines they start to become REAL attractive. Having a
    >single source for all your driver downloads, being able to use the
    >same basic procedure for setting up and supporting your systems can
    >really help. Not to mention the fact that you can get all your
    >replacement parts sent overnight when one goes bad.

    If you buy all 10, 20, 40 or whatever at exactly the same time sure but
    even a few months apart or a slightly different model and you *could* need
    different HD diags, different video drivers, different BIOS and even
    different chipset .INFs, etc. etc.. Things move quickly and I see this
    with even the few Thinkpads we have.

    --
    Rgds, George Macdonald
  29. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:46:39 -0500, George Macdonald
    <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:

    >On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 02:15:09 -0500, Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 19:47:12 -0500, George Macdonald
    >><fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:
    >>

    <snip>

    >>Yup, I wouldn't think of getting an HPaq or a Dell for home use.
    >>However for business systems where you need to support anything more
    >>than about 10 machines they start to become REAL attractive. Having a
    >>single source for all your driver downloads, being able to use the
    >>same basic procedure for setting up and supporting your systems can
    >>really help. Not to mention the fact that you can get all your
    >>replacement parts sent overnight when one goes bad.
    >
    >If you buy all 10, 20, 40 or whatever at exactly the same time sure but
    >even a few months apart or a slightly different model and you *could* need
    >different HD diags, different video drivers, different BIOS and even
    >different chipset .INFs, etc. etc.. Things move quickly and I see this
    >with even the few Thinkpads we have.

    A few years ago, I was working for Chevron when they entered into an
    agreement to buy 30,000 (yes, thirty-thousand) desktop systems from
    HP. All of the systems were the same, and HP agreed as part of the
    contract to make them EXACTLY the same. It took the best part of one
    full year to roll out all of the new desktops, and the last system
    delivered cost exactly the same as the first one -- imagine how much
    the prices would have declined over the cost of a year, if not locked
    in. However, the way Chevron management had it figured, the desktop
    systems were going to last for 3 years, and the cost of support was
    $300 per month, so the initial hardware costs were insignificant
    compared to the support costs.

    And this $300 a month support cost was already taking into account the
    savings associated with every desktop being EXACTLY the same, and the
    only real support you got was, "You've got a problem, we'll re-image
    your PC."
  30. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    "Tony Hill" <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
    news:csd521h2862gbmone8s6toebu1vnc1745m@4ax.com...
    > On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 03:59:49 GMT, "Hank Oredson"
    > <horedson@earthlink.net> wrote:
    >>Don't recall every needing to call their support staff, the machines
    >>"just work". All are XPS systems, newest is an 8200. It's my old
    >>T550 that needs replacement (grin).
    >>
    >>Have replaced lots of parts in the Dells, always by choice.
    >>Better vid, bigger disk, more ram, etc. Did lose one hard
    >>drive and had to replace it, no big deal.
    >>
    >>So I was just curious which brand of already built plug it
    >>in it works machine you might endorse.
    >
    > If I had to chose one of the big OEMs for a home system, it would
    > probably be a Dell... or an Apple, but I guess they don't really
    > count.
    >
    > Dell is at least as good as anyone else in the tier-one OEM market,
    > though when "anyone else" is HPaq, that isn't exactly a glowing
    > endorsement. You can usually find Dell systems for fairly decent
    > prices.
    >
    > If you're willing to pay extra than you can find some good quality
    > systems from some more niche-market builders. Alienware is one that I
    > know of who at least use high quality components (I don't have any
    > personal experience with them, so I can't say much else about them).
    > Might be worth checking out their site.


    I've looked at 4 or 5 of the "gamer style" systems builders, and am a bit
    put off by things like plastic panels and blinking lights :-)

    Thanks for your comments re Dell.
    Have already ruled out HPaq, Sony, GQ and a few others.

    --

    ... Hank

    http://home.earthlink.net/~horedson
    http://home.earthlink.net/~w0rli
  31. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    "chrisv" <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
    news:f8e621d48803i68afliipa3lhkrlmsnc9q@4ax.com...
    > Tony Hill wrote:
    >
    >>Dell is at least as good as anyone else in the tier-one OEM market,
    >>though when "anyone else" is HPaq, that isn't exactly a glowing
    >>endorsement. You can usually find Dell systems for fairly decent
    >>prices.
    >
    > I buy/make a lot of PC's for my job. They are put to fairly heavy use
    > in a wide variety of tasks (not normal desktop use). I've always
    > spec'ed generic machines and we built them up ourselves. A few months
    > ago I needed some XP machines fast, so I ordered a few Dell's.
    >
    > At first, they seemed okay, and I started thinking "maybe I'll buy
    > more of these pre-built things and save myself some work". However,
    > after a few months they started to screw-up, becoming less stable,
    > needing reboots, re-installs, etc. The hardware is a cut below the
    > generic stuff I buy as well (e.g. Antec cases, Intel-brand 845- and
    > 865-based motherboards).
    >
    > Needless to say, I'm not planning on any more Dell's in the near
    > future... It's reinforced my long-held belief that the best PC is one
    > you make yourself.


    Thanks for the comments. Our most recent Dell is from the first
    of the 8200 series, and it has been stable. Have upgraded video
    and hard drive, not much more to change. No experience with
    their newer boxes.

    --

    ... Hank

    http://home.earthlink.net/~horedson
    http://home.earthlink.net/~w0rli
  32. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    "George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote in message
    news:66k5219u9uia3v4s0dho3f2nmg30cr9puo@4ax.com...
    > On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 04:03:27 GMT, "Hank Oredson" <horedson@earthlink.net>
    > wrote:
    >
    >>"Bob Niland" <email4rjn@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    >>news:opsmu75kmvft8z8r@news.individual.net...
    >>>>> None of which has anything to do with Dell, which
    >>>>> is not a brand I buy or endorse when asked.
    >>>
    >>>> Hank Oredson <horedson@earthlink.net> wrote:
    >>>> What brand would you endorse?
    >>>
    >>> It entirely depends on your intended uses. For
    >>> my own work (2D-intensive), I build my own. For
    >>> neighbors with generic requirements, the MicroTels
    >>> that Wal-Mart sells (web only), are perfectly
    >>> adequate inexpensive platforms, and are supportable,
    >>> as they have both Windows and Linux drivers.
    >>>
    >>>> Have three Dells in the house (plus 4 other systems).
    >>>> Dells have been problem-free.
    >>>
    >>> The question is - when you have a problem, just
    >>> how big a problem do you have? One of the things
    >>> that has put me off Dell is their periodic forays
    >>> into needless proprietary stuff, including motherboard
    >>> power connectors.
    >>
    >>
    >>Have not lost MB or PS on a Dell yet, and I'm pretty
    >>sure they stopped that non-standard PS nonesense
    >
    > According to what we hear in c.s.i.p.h.c they are still doing it. As for
    > the "lost" part, the devil is not in the replacing - diagnosing & finding
    > it is the real rub; having a standard part which can be swapped in is umm,
    > nice. Do you really want some screwdriver jockey from a 3rd party
    > maintenance op. monkeying with your system and all its valuable data?

    Never a problem. I do the work, or my wife does, we are both
    competent with tools and test equipment.

    >>I'm looking for something more high end, won't find one
    >>at Wal-Mart. No problem building my own, have built
    >>dozens over the years, was just curious if there were
    >>some particular brands folks liked.
    >
    > I advise people to go to a local system builder but they buy Dells
    > anyway.<shrug> The only thing I can think is that deciding which
    > components they want/need is too much work.

    The local system builders do not build machines as good as the
    ones that I build :-) Points are well taken though, thank you.

    --

    ... Hank

    http://home.earthlink.net/~horedson
    http://home.earthlink.net/~w0rli
  33. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:55:45 -0800, "David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com>
    wrote:

    >
    >"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote in message
    >news:66k5219u9uia3v4s0dho3f2nmg30cr9puo@4ax.com...
    >
    >> I advise people to go to a local system builder but they buy Dells
    >> anyway.<shrug> The only thing I can think is that deciding which
    >> components they want/need is too much work.
    >
    > I strongly urge people to avoid local system builders (unless they have
    >solid recommendations or they are qualified to evaluate the system builder).
    >I have heard too many stories and had too many experiences with incompetent
    >installation, rushed installation, incompatible parts, substandard parts,
    >overpricing, bait and switch, and so on.

    [..../]

    Dell Irony Meter

    (yeah - *none* of that ever happens with the Big Guys ;-)
  34. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    "daytripper" <day_trippr@REMOVEyahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:49g721p621c260l55iag63t69valmf2msh@4ax.com...

    > On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:55:45 -0800, "David Schwartz"
    > <davids@webmaster.com>
    > wrote:

    >>"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote in message
    >>news:66k5219u9uia3v4s0dho3f2nmg30cr9puo@4ax.com...

    >>> I advise people to go to a local system builder but they buy Dells
    >>> anyway.<shrug> The only thing I can think is that deciding which
    >>> components they want/need is too much work.

    >> I strongly urge people to avoid local system builders (unless they
    >> have
    >>solid recommendations or they are qualified to evaluate the system
    >>builder).
    >>I have heard too many stories and had too many experiences with
    >>incompetent
    >>installation, rushed installation, incompatible parts, substandard parts,
    >>overpricing, bait and switch, and so on.

    > (yeah - *none* of that ever happens with the Big Guys ;-)

    I didn't say to go to the big guys, I said to avoid local system
    builders unless they have solid recommendations or you are qualified to
    evaluate the system builder. Did I mention that local system builders often
    give you a warranty that is utterly worthless and may use parts that don't
    have any warranties at all.

    DS
  35. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:52:08 GMT, "Hank Oredson" <horedson@earthlink.net>
    wrote:

    >"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote in message
    >news:66k5219u9uia3v4s0dho3f2nmg30cr9puo@4ax.com...
    >> On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 04:03:27 GMT, "Hank Oredson" <horedson@earthlink.net>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>>"Bob Niland" <email4rjn@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    >>>news:opsmu75kmvft8z8r@news.individual.net...
    >>>>>> None of which has anything to do with Dell, which
    >>>>>> is not a brand I buy or endorse when asked.
    >>>>
    >>>>> Hank Oredson <horedson@earthlink.net> wrote:
    >>>>> What brand would you endorse?
    >>>>
    >>>> It entirely depends on your intended uses. For
    >>>> my own work (2D-intensive), I build my own. For
    >>>> neighbors with generic requirements, the MicroTels
    >>>> that Wal-Mart sells (web only), are perfectly
    >>>> adequate inexpensive platforms, and are supportable,
    >>>> as they have both Windows and Linux drivers.
    >>>>
    >>>>> Have three Dells in the house (plus 4 other systems).
    >>>>> Dells have been problem-free.
    >>>>
    >>>> The question is - when you have a problem, just
    >>>> how big a problem do you have? One of the things
    >>>> that has put me off Dell is their periodic forays
    >>>> into needless proprietary stuff, including motherboard
    >>>> power connectors.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>Have not lost MB or PS on a Dell yet, and I'm pretty
    >>>sure they stopped that non-standard PS nonesense
    >>
    >> According to what we hear in c.s.i.p.h.c they are still doing it. As for
    >> the "lost" part, the devil is not in the replacing - diagnosing & finding
    >> it is the real rub; having a standard part which can be swapped in is umm,
    >> nice. Do you really want some screwdriver jockey from a 3rd party
    >> maintenance op. monkeying with your system and all its valuable data?
    >
    >Never a problem. I do the work, or my wife does, we are both
    >competent with tools and test equipment.

    It's a long while since I had a big OEM system but, back then, in the
    warranty period, self-repair with vendor supplied parts was not an option.
    IOW I had to bite my tongue as some monkey from TRW(IIRC) hacked at our
    system; after he'd gone I had to tighten the mbrd mounting screws, reseat
    the add-in cards, reset the case cover so it fit and uncross the
    cross-threaded screws.:-)

    >>>I'm looking for something more high end, won't find one
    >>>at Wal-Mart. No problem building my own, have built
    >>>dozens over the years, was just curious if there were
    >>>some particular brands folks liked.
    >>
    >> I advise people to go to a local system builder but they buy Dells
    >> anyway.<shrug> The only thing I can think is that deciding which
    >> components they want/need is too much work.
    >
    >The local system builders do not build machines as good as the
    >ones that I build :-) Points are well taken though, thank you.

    Agreed -- no doubt DIY is best -- but if you can find a decent local guy, I
    believe it'll be a cut above what you can get from large OEMs.

    --
    Rgds, George Macdonald
  36. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:46:39 -0500, George Macdonald wrote:

    > On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 02:15:09 -0500, Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca>
    > wrote:
    >
    >>On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 19:47:12 -0500, George Macdonald
    >><fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:
    >>
    >>>On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 16:27:28 -0500, Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca>
    >>>wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>Proprietary keyboard connector?! The only place I've ever seen one of
    >>>>those was a Packard Hell, where it has a special keyboard + mouse +
    >>>>speaker/mic connector all in one. All the Compaq and HP machines I've
    >>>>come across use plain old PS/2 (or sometimes USB) keyboards and mice.
    >>>>Mind you, I pretty much only deal with their commercial line, so I
    >>>>don't know what the deal is with the Presario systems.
    >>>
    >>>Oops I just dated myself.... AGAIN! Way back, Compaq had a proprietary
    >>>keyboard connector - nothing else fit and there was no adapter - maybe
    >>>thats why people bought more than one??:-) I recall a Wyse 386 system we
    >>>got had a RJ-11 for the keyboard connector, just like their TTYs, but at
    >>>least they supplied an adapter with the system.
    >>
    >>In mentioning a Wyse computer I think you are REALLY dating yourself
    >>there George! :>
    >
    > Harrumph - just you wait an' see: 20 years will snap by without you even
    > noticing. At least Wyse is still in business, though I've no idea when
    > they made their last PC - ours was a 386/16... with a 1MB full length
    > memory upgrade card.:-)

    Yeah, I still remember my first (legal) beer. Oh, wait! You said 20
    years. ;-) Hey! I'm still 34! Hey Tony, catching up yet? ;-)

    >>Now that you mention it though, I do remember seeing some odd-ball
    >>connectors for keyboards on a variety of computers way back in the day
    >>(286 and 386 era mainly). Never much dealt with any of those though,
    >>mainly since I was still in grade school at the time!

    I remember the odd-ball connector on the 5150. Who in their right mind
    would use a 5-pin DIN connector? What *were* they thinking? Who would
    have positive edge-triggered interrupts? ...but I digress. ;-)

    >>Yup, I wouldn't think of getting an HPaq or a Dell for home use. However
    >>for business systems where you need to support anything more than about
    >>10 machines they start to become REAL attractive. Having a single
    >>source for all your driver downloads, being able to use the same basic
    >>procedure for setting up and supporting your systems can really help.
    >>Not to mention the fact that you can get all your replacement parts sent
    >>overnight when one goes bad.
    >
    > If you buy all 10, 20, 40 or whatever at exactly the same time sure but
    > even a few months apart or a slightly different model and you *could*
    > need different HD diags, different video drivers, different BIOS and
    > even different chipset .INFs, etc. etc.. Things move quickly and I see
    > this with even the few Thinkpads we have.

    Sure. What about those with the hardware setting on the hard disk? The
    PS/2s at least had configuration floppys that could be saved.

    --
    Keith
  37. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:48:26 -0600, Henry Nettles wrote:

    > On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:46:39 -0500, George Macdonald
    > <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:
    >
    >>On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 02:15:09 -0500, Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca>
    >>wrote:
    >>
    >>>On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 19:47:12 -0500, George Macdonald
    >>><fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:
    >>>
    >
    > <snip>
    >
    >>>Yup, I wouldn't think of getting an HPaq or a Dell for home use.
    >>>However for business systems where you need to support anything more
    >>>than about 10 machines they start to become REAL attractive. Having a
    >>>single source for all your driver downloads, being able to use the
    >>>same basic procedure for setting up and supporting your systems can
    >>>really help. Not to mention the fact that you can get all your
    >>>replacement parts sent overnight when one goes bad.
    >>
    >>If you buy all 10, 20, 40 or whatever at exactly the same time sure but
    >>even a few months apart or a slightly different model and you *could* need
    >>different HD diags, different video drivers, different BIOS and even
    >>different chipset .INFs, etc. etc.. Things move quickly and I see this
    >>with even the few Thinkpads we have.
    >
    > A few years ago, I was working for Chevron when they entered into an
    > agreement to buy 30,000 (yes, thirty-thousand) desktop systems from
    > HP. All of the systems were the same, and HP agreed as part of the
    > contract to make them EXACTLY the same. It took the best part of one
    > full year to roll out all of the new desktops, and the last system
    > delivered cost exactly the same as the first one -- imagine how much
    > the prices would have declined over the cost of a year, if not locked
    > in.

    Or how much HPaq knew they were going to decline and figured it into
    the bid. (my bet)

    > However, the way Chevron management had it figured, the desktop
    > systems were going to last for 3 years, and the cost of support was
    > $300 per month, so the initial hardware costs were insignificant
    > compared to the support costs.

    No question. Hardware is cheap. My company wanted to replace my laptop
    this year. My setup was more valuable to me than the new laptop was. Not
    to mention that I would be going backwards. I refused the "upgrade".

    > And this $300 a month support cost was already taking into account the
    > savings associated with every desktop being EXACTLY the same, and the
    > only real support you got was, "You've got a problem, we'll re-image
    > your PC."

    $300/month shows rather well the Redmond tax. What is that, one
    Win-bod per 20 desks? Yikes!

    --
    Keith
  38. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    "David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com> writes:

    > "daytripper" <day_trippr@REMOVEyahoo.com> wrote in message
    > news:49g721p621c260l55iag63t69valmf2msh@4ax.com...
    >
    > > On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:55:45 -0800, "David Schwartz"
    > > <davids@webmaster.com>
    > > wrote:
    >
    > >>"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote in message
    > >>news:66k5219u9uia3v4s0dho3f2nmg30cr9puo@4ax.com...
    >
    > >>> I advise people to go to a local system builder but they buy Dells
    > >>> anyway.<shrug> The only thing I can think is that deciding which
    > >>> components they want/need is too much work.
    >
    > >> I strongly urge people to avoid local system builders (unless they
    > >> have
    > >>solid recommendations or they are qualified to evaluate the system
    > >>builder).
    > >>I have heard too many stories and had too many experiences with
    > >>incompetent
    > >>installation, rushed installation, incompatible parts, substandard parts,
    > >>overpricing, bait and switch, and so on.
    >
    > > (yeah - *none* of that ever happens with the Big Guys ;-)
    >
    > I didn't say to go to the big guys, I said to avoid local system
    > builders unless they have solid recommendations or you are qualified to
    > evaluate the system builder. Did I mention that local system builders often
    > give you a warranty that is utterly worthless and may use parts that don't
    > have any warranties at all.

    If you recommend against the little guys, and don't recommend the big
    guys, who is left? Surely you're not suggesting people who aren't
    competent to judge the system builder should build their own?
    --
    Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605
    Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002
    New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer
  39. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    "Joe Pfeiffer" <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote in message
    news:1by8d7c3af.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu...

    > If you recommend against the little guys, and don't recommend the big
    > guys, who is left? Surely you're not suggesting people who aren't
    > competent to judge the system builder should build their own?

    There are lots of other options.

    For example, you could hire someone to evaluate your needs and hire a
    system builder for you. Ideally, this person would be paid a fixed price, so
    he has no incentive to sell you things you don't need or allow the system
    builder to give you inferior parts.

    There are, of course, also medium-sized companies.

    DS
  40. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:48:26 -0600, Henry Nettles <hnettles@hal-pc.org>
    wrote:

    >On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:46:39 -0500, George Macdonald
    ><fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:
    >
    >>On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 02:15:09 -0500, Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca>
    >>wrote:
    >>
    >>>On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 19:47:12 -0500, George Macdonald
    >>><fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:
    >>>
    >
    ><snip>
    >
    >>>Yup, I wouldn't think of getting an HPaq or a Dell for home use.
    >>>However for business systems where you need to support anything more
    >>>than about 10 machines they start to become REAL attractive. Having a
    >>>single source for all your driver downloads, being able to use the
    >>>same basic procedure for setting up and supporting your systems can
    >>>really help. Not to mention the fact that you can get all your
    >>>replacement parts sent overnight when one goes bad.
    >>
    >>If you buy all 10, 20, 40 or whatever at exactly the same time sure but
    >>even a few months apart or a slightly different model and you *could* need
    >>different HD diags, different video drivers, different BIOS and even
    >>different chipset .INFs, etc. etc.. Things move quickly and I see this
    >>with even the few Thinkpads we have.
    >
    >A few years ago, I was working for Chevron when they entered into an
    >agreement to buy 30,000 (yes, thirty-thousand) desktop systems from
    >HP. All of the systems were the same, and HP agreed as part of the
    >contract to make them EXACTLY the same. It took the best part of one
    >full year to roll out all of the new desktops, and the last system
    >delivered cost exactly the same as the first one -- imagine how much
    >the prices would have declined over the cost of a year, if not locked
    >in. However, the way Chevron management had it figured, the desktop
    >systems were going to last for 3 years, and the cost of support was
    >$300 per month, so the initial hardware costs were insignificant
    >compared to the support costs.

    Happy day for HP and their sales guy.:-) I *know* that there are people at
    Chevron who enjoy performance jumps and that kind of policy, if enforced
    globally, would kinda leave them in the lurch... maybe they get exceptions?
    It would seem grossly myopic, IMO, to provide your average
    memo-writer/spread-sheet jockey with the same hardware as the guy who's
    planning the future of the company with a seismic analysis or a 10K row LP
    model!

    If you look at where we were a year ago and how far we've come, the
    performance has just leapt ahead: with AMD, e.g., we've got commodity mbrds
    which take Athlon64s, which are also freely available... and the A64s
    themselves have gone from socket 754 to 939 (i.e. single to dual channel
    memory), with a reduction in design metrics which *has* reduced (as opposed
    to Intel) temperatures considerably on similar CPU performance. I can
    hammer my Athlon64 3500+ 90nm all day and it runs at 52C or so.

    >And this $300 a month support cost was already taking into account the
    >savings associated with every desktop being EXACTLY the same, and the
    >only real support you got was, "You've got a problem, we'll re-image
    >your PC."

    Yeah well that kind of "support" tends to breed users who are creative or
    err, meddlers.

    --
    Rgds, George Macdonald
  41. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:55:45 -0800, "David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com>
    wrote:

    >
    >"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote in message
    >news:66k5219u9uia3v4s0dho3f2nmg30cr9puo@4ax.com...
    >
    >> I advise people to go to a local system builder but they buy Dells
    >> anyway.<shrug> The only thing I can think is that deciding which
    >> components they want/need is too much work.
    >
    > I strongly urge people to avoid local system builders (unless they have
    >solid recommendations or they are qualified to evaluate the system builder).
    >I have heard too many stories and had too many experiences with incompetent
    >installation, rushed installation, incompatible parts, substandard parts,
    >overpricing, bait and switch, and so on.

    Well I wouldn't recommend the Yellow Pages blind pin approach.:-)

    --
    Rgds, George Macdonald
  42. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 20:12:54 -0500, daytripper
    <day_trippr@REMOVEyahoo.com> wrote:

    >On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:55:45 -0800, "David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote in message
    >>news:66k5219u9uia3v4s0dho3f2nmg30cr9puo@4ax.com...
    >>
    >>> I advise people to go to a local system builder but they buy Dells
    >>> anyway.<shrug> The only thing I can think is that deciding which
    >>> components they want/need is too much work.
    >>
    >> I strongly urge people to avoid local system builders (unless they have
    >>solid recommendations or they are qualified to evaluate the system builder).
    >>I have heard too many stories and had too many experiences with incompetent
    >>installation, rushed installation, incompatible parts, substandard parts,
    >>overpricing, bait and switch, and so on.
    >
    >[..../]
    >
    >Dell Irony Meter
    >
    >(yeah - *none* of that ever happens with the Big Guys ;-)

    While Dell, HPaq and the like aren't exactly top-notch quality, I've
    seen WAY worse sketchiness from the small local vendors. A *GOOD*
    small local vendor can set you up with a very good PC, but there are
    plenty of REALLY shady characters running PC shops and it's often hard
    to pick out the good from the bad, particularly for those who don't
    already know exactly what they're after.

    With Dell you just get fairly consistently average setups with an
    average amount of problems. They're definitely not using
    top-of-the-line parts by any stretch, but at least they aren't using
    some PC Chips motherboard or the like, and you know that they have at
    least booted a system with your exact configuration once or twice in a
    lab before sending it. The same is often not true for some of the
    small-time local guys.

    -------------
    Tony Hill
    hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca
  43. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 22:45:04 -0500, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:

    >On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:46:39 -0500, George Macdonald wrote:
    >> Harrumph - just you wait an' see: 20 years will snap by without you even
    >> noticing. At least Wyse is still in business, though I've no idea when
    >> they made their last PC - ours was a 386/16... with a 1MB full length
    >> memory upgrade card.:-)
    >
    >Yeah, I still remember my first (legal) beer. Oh, wait! You said 20
    >years. ;-) Hey! I'm still 34! Hey Tony, catching up yet? ;-)

    Nope, I'm still a teenager by you're way of counting... <shudder> I
    REALLY don't like you're way of counting... It might have been fun to
    be a teenager at one time, but definitely not anymore!

    >> If you buy all 10, 20, 40 or whatever at exactly the same time sure but
    >> even a few months apart or a slightly different model and you *could*
    >> need different HD diags, different video drivers, different BIOS and
    >> even different chipset .INFs, etc. etc.. Things move quickly and I see
    >> this with even the few Thinkpads we have.
    >
    >Sure. What about those with the hardware setting on the hard disk? The
    >PS/2s at least had configuration floppys that could be saved.

    Ugg, don't even get me started about the early Compaq Deskpro systems
    and their BIOS-on-hard-disk. If you want a REAL pain in the ass, that
    was it!

    -------------
    Tony Hill
    hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca
  44. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 02:14:22 -0500, Tony Hill wrote:

    > On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 22:45:04 -0500, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
    >
    >>On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:46:39 -0500, George Macdonald wrote:
    >>> Harrumph - just you wait an' see: 20 years will snap by without you even
    >>> noticing. At least Wyse is still in business, though I've no idea when
    >>> they made their last PC - ours was a 386/16... with a 1MB full length
    >>> memory upgrade card.:-)
    >>
    >>Yeah, I still remember my first (legal) beer. Oh, wait! You said 20
    >>years. ;-) Hey! I'm still 34! Hey Tony, catching up yet? ;-)
    >
    > Nope, I'm still a teenager by you're way of counting... <shudder> I
    > REALLY don't like you're way of counting... It might have been fun to
    > be a teenager at one time, but definitely not anymore!

    Ok, you haven't caught up yet but trsut me, you'll see things differently
    in a few short years. ;-)
    >
    >>> If you buy all 10, 20, 40 or whatever at exactly the same time sure
    >>> but even a few months apart or a slightly different model and you
    >>> *could* need different HD diags, different video drivers, different
    >>> BIOS and even different chipset .INFs, etc. etc.. Things move quickly
    >>> and I see this with even the few Thinkpads we have.
    >>
    >>Sure. What about those with the hardware setting on the hard disk? The
    >>PS/2s at least had configuration floppys that could be saved.
    >
    > Ugg, don't even get me started about the early Compaq Deskpro systems
    > and their BIOS-on-hard-disk. If you want a REAL pain in the ass, that
    > was it!

    That was exactly what I was referring to. ...and people thought the
    Microchannel was a PITA. Of course Microchannnel was designed for
    business use (roll-outs by the thousands and where a couple of
    transistors didn't matter), but the alternatives were *far* worse.

    --
    Keith
  45. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 00:33:25 -0800, David Schwartz wrote:

    >
    > "Joe Pfeiffer" <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote in message
    > news:1by8d7c3af.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu...
    >
    >> If you recommend against the little guys, and don't recommend the big
    >> guys, who is left? Surely you're not suggesting people who aren't
    >> competent to judge the system builder should build their own?
    >
    > There are lots of other options.
    >
    > For example, you could hire someone to evaluate your needs and hire a
    > system builder for you. Ideally, this person would be paid a fixed price, so
    > he has no incentive to sell you things you don't need or allow the system
    > builder to give you inferior parts.
    >
    > There are, of course, also medium-sized companies.

    Ok? Who?!

    --
    Keith
  46. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    "keith" <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote in message
    news:pan.2005.03.03.01.25.15.381509@att.bizzzz...
    > On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 00:33:25 -0800, David Schwartz wrote:

    >> There are, of course, also medium-sized companies.
    >
    > Ok? Who?!

    Grab any copy of any computer magazine and you will see dozens of ads
    for computer systems made and sold by medium-sized companies.

    DS
  47. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    "David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com> wrote in message
    news:d06460$g9q$1@nntp.webmaster.com...
    >
    > "keith" <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote in message
    > news:pan.2005.03.03.01.25.15.381509@att.bizzzz...
    >> On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 00:33:25 -0800, David Schwartz wrote:
    >
    >>> There are, of course, also medium-sized companies.
    >>
    >> Ok? Who?!
    >
    > Grab any copy of any computer magazine and you will see dozens of ads
    > for computer systems made and sold by medium-sized companies.

    A few include MainPC, Globus, pcboost, American CompuTech, Portatech,
    USA-PCCITY, United Micro, CableMart, and MILEGROUP. Note that these are not
    endorsements. Some of these actually resell complete systems )sometimes with
    customizations on things like memory, video card, hard drive, and so on)
    made other companies such as Asus, Comet, Jungle, X Technology, and MGE.

    DS
  48. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 20:14:33 -0500, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:

    >On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 02:14:22 -0500, Tony Hill wrote:
    >
    >> Nope, I'm still a teenager by you're way of counting... <shudder> I
    >> REALLY don't like you're way of counting... It might have been fun to
    >> be a teenager at one time, but definitely not anymore!
    >
    >Ok, you haven't caught up yet but trsut me, you'll see things differently
    >in a few short years. ;-)

    Ask me again in another 5 years and I might agree, but not just yet!

    >> Ugg, don't even get me started about the early Compaq Deskpro systems
    >> and their BIOS-on-hard-disk. If you want a REAL pain in the ass, that
    >> was it!
    >
    >That was exactly what I was referring to. ...and people thought the
    >Microchannel was a PITA. Of course Microchannnel was designed for
    >business use (roll-outs by the thousands and where a couple of
    >transistors didn't matter), but the alternatives were *far* worse.

    The worst part about the Deskpro's is that they continued to use this
    WELL after Microchannel had come and gone. In fact, it wasn't until
    the Deskpro EN line (PII systems, first released in '97 or '98 I
    think) that Compaq finally abandoned this crazy scheme.

    The stupidest part about the whole thing was that it wasn't even the
    BIOS data itself that was on the hard disk, that was still in firmware
    on the motherboard. However the ONLY way to access it was using some
    graphical program that either had to be a partition on a hard disk or
    a set of 3 boot up floppies (which NEVER seemed to work right for me).
    All just so that they could get a Windows 3.1-ish GUI frontend to the
    BIOS. Compaq definitely deserved some smacking upside the head for
    that whole ordeal, though fortunately it looks like the engineers won
    out over the marketing-droids for the next round, as the Deskpro EN
    systems were quite possibly the best build x86 desktops ever made.

    -------------
    Tony Hill
    hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca
  49. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel (More info?)

    On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 20:35:10 -0800, David Schwartz wrote:

    >
    > "keith" <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote in message
    > news:pan.2005.03.03.01.25.15.381509@att.bizzzz...
    >> On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 00:33:25 -0800, David Schwartz wrote:
    >
    >>> There are, of course, also medium-sized companies.
    >>
    >> Ok? Who?!
    >
    > Grab any copy of any computer magazine and you will see dozens of ads
    > for computer systems made and sold by medium-sized companies.

    Ok, but I wouldn't call *any* medium-sized. My first Pentium system was
    a Quantex, by your definition a "medium-sized" builder. It was junk, as
    was the support and everything else. They're no longer (surprise,
    surprise). The fact is that this business doesn't allow for
    "medium-sized". You're either big, and can leverage prices, or small and
    can leverage service. There isn't anything inbetween.

    We'll disagree.

    --
    Keith
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